Season 4: Razor (Rewatch)

[OldManRivers]

Originally Posted by Emperor Fabulous

For me, the single biggest problem with Razor is the casting of Kendra Shaw. Stephanie Jacobsen was and still is, absolutely awful. As a fan of Terminator: TSCC, which she is now in, I am hoping her demise has been planned for sooner, rather than later.

Other than this poor bit of casting, I found Razor to be a rather enjoyable distraction.

Can I get a HELL YES! on that.

[st.barthgirl]

CHOOSE YOUR ENEMIES CAREFULLY
by Forrest Church
May 16, 2004......exerpt....
Some religious liberals clutch at the word, evil. I don't. Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Sadaam Hussein, and Osama Bin Laden are not basically good people who sometimes did bad things: they and the structures they erect to enforce their will and expand their power were and are agents and agencies of evil. I want to make that as clear as possible, because it helps account for the predicament in which we, as a nation, now find ourselves.
Our leaders are so outraged by the evil of our self-appointed and chosen adversaries—so blinded by the light in which their own and our nation's high moral idealism bathes them—that they cannot see, or even imagine, that we ourselves might cast a like shadow.
This is not a new predicament. In 1973, near the end of our tragic adventure in Vietnam, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. pondered the abiding effect on the national psyche of our certainly just war against Adolph Hitler. Having vanquished so evil a foe, he said, took its purchase on our souls. "Our enemies were so awful, so evil, that we, by contrast, must be remarkably pure. That illusion of purity, to which we were entitled in a way, has become our curse today."
This problem is compounded when our leaders sponsor a highly developed theology of evil, unleavened by any appreciation whatsoever for their own sinful nature. National, or corporate, sin almost always cloaks self-interest in the garb of higher virtue. Not only as individuals but as a nation, we justify questionable means by noble ends. We exculpate ourselves by pointing out that others do worse. We rationalize away our crimes as aberrant. in short, by shifting moral responsibility away from ourselves, we proclaim ourselves innocent. "
-END OF EXCERPT-
i just found this quote in a movie review from 2004. I believe it applies to Admiral Cain, as above.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[The Dirt]

I thought that Stephanie Jacobsen as Shaw was pretty good. However, the character was sort of unnecessary, other than to tie in the events of Pegasus under Cain and under Lee.

[st.barthgirl]

Kendra Shaw was the oracle through whose eyes we see the pernicious effects of Cain's Autocracy. (in my humble opinion)

[BSGfan-atic]

I love any episodes involving the Pegasus, and Razor was just a pure love-fest for me. The development of the characters was generally good, but I do have to agree with Emperor Fabulous about Kendra Shaw. Her character just left me cold. To see her go from ticket-punching career ladder climber to dedicated, motivated, bad-ass druggie was way too big of a stretch, IMHO.

Watching Cain go from a silently suffering, guilt-ridden, but fairly decent human being and CO, to the raging pirate captain was like watching a space shuttle mission take off. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" goes the old expression. Well, throw in the fact that her girlfriend turned out to be an undercover agent of those same Cylons who killed her family, saddled her with monstrous guilt over her sister, and now who are also killing hundreds of her crew and destroying her civilization. I am surprised she didn't get in on the torture of Gina with her own two hands. Michelle Forbes was a great choice for this role.

st.barthgirl was right on the money with the comparison with the comparison between Adama and Cain. Cain definitely showed that she wasn't worthy of survival. She showed that she didn't even have the right idea of what her mission as a Colonial Fleet officer was - to protect the Colonies. That civilian fleet that she plundered and abandoned was the Colonies as far as she should been concerned. I am just surprised that nobody had the backbone to say that it was wrong to prey upon civilians like that. It just goes to show what a moral vacuum Cain had allowed to develop aboard the Pegasus.

I might be too hard on Cain. Adama's own first plan was to leave the civilians at Ragnar and go back out into the battle. What do his initial plans and Cain's actions say about the culture in the Colonial military?

Remember in Hero, when Adama was getting briefed on his top-secret mission by the Fleet high command, there was talk about the military leaders keeping secrets from the Adar administration.

All interesting stuff, but probably going beyond the scope of this thread on Razor. Ahh, if only they'd make a few more TV movies to fill in all this background information. For me, this makes a much more compelling universe than what the Star Wars universe degenerated into.

[Batman316]

What do his initial plans and Cain's actions say about the culture in the Colonial military?

I think Adama said it himself.... I think he was talking to Lee, something about "He had Roslin to stop him. Cain had no-one"

[genji2000]

Wiki questions:

• How does the Hybrid know Kendra Shaw?
• Is the Hybrid's warning that Kara Thrace is the harbinger of death true? Does it say this to ensure that the eternal cycle continues per Pythian prophecy?
• Who becomes Pegasus's CAG after Thrace steps down?
• Whose decision was it to scrap the old Centurions? Did they resist?
• When the first Hybrid says "My children believe I am a god", to whom is he referring? The old model Cylons? The organic models?
• What does the first Hybrid mean when he says his existence will "begin again in ways uncertain"?
  • Does this statement imply that the first Hybrid is capable of downloading, or does it refer to an unending cycle?
• Are all of the Guardians on the basestar when it is destroyed, or did they build other bases in the decades before?
• Is the first Hybrid one of the humans captured on the Diana?
• Is the first Hybrid as it originally appeared, or has it physically aged? Was it created in that stage of adult maturity?
• If the Hybrid experiment was abandoned after others were created to control the basestars, do the Cylons only have a limited number of them?
• Did the Cylons abduct humans, such as Lucy Cain on Tauron, for further experimentation after abandoning their facilities on the ice planet?
• If Saul Tigh fought in the first Cylon War, how was he created, since the Cylons had yet to create humanoid Cylons by the time of the armistice?
• Were the captives from the ice planet rescued? How much did the Colonials know about the experiments which took place there?

Next >

[mnm4334]

my post became the victim of the server crash, so I will do my best to reiterate it.

I have always loathed black and white thinking. In my life I have come to realize that exceptions are the rule. I abhor cruelty and I find that when you abandon logic and reason in favor anger and hatred you can easily become far worse than the enemy you are trying to fight and through the actions you take and those that you are willing to take, they may have been the reason you were attacked in the first place.

The attacks on the colonies were terrible, we do not have words to properly describe the feelings one would have in response to such a tragedy, however it is the way we conduct ourselves when our world is falling apart that shows us who we really are. The actions Cain took, they were completely short sighted, they were in contrast to her calling as an Admiral in the colonial fleet, and she failed at the most basic response to the genocide of the human race.

I often find it difficult to re-watch Razor and several episodes of season 2.5 because we learn the full extent of the barbarous acts that Admiral Cain committed and condoned. I despise Cain for her actions and find those who would defend her to be either morally bankrupt or as innately sadistic as Cain demonstrated herself to be. There is no defense for the actions admiral Cain took, she embraced bigotry and set out on crusade for vengeance, she had no hope for success and was guilty of the same crimes the cylon committed. Cain demonstrated a critical lack of compassion and failed to respect human life.

In a society like the 12 colonies, the military exists for one reason, to defend its people. The cylons came to destroy the PEOPLE, they didn't come to reduce the size of the colonial fleet, they came to exterminate the human race. When a military officer decides that her primary goal is revenge driven by unbridled hate, and resorts to killing the few remaining humans left in the universe to her knowledge, she has blatantly violated her oath as an officer and in the most heinous way possible, she has distorted the very reason for the military's existence. She did not even attempt to justify her actions under the guise of patriotism, she couldn't she gave up her rights to call herself a colonial officer when she started attacking human civilians.

Now, for purely hypothetical purposes lets say Cain was able to kill every cylon she encountered. Her crusade for "vengeance" is successful, but what next. The fun from kicking and raping prisoners can only last so long I would imagine. Empress Cain claimed to want to return to the colonies and kill cylons there, then what? The colonies are a nuclear wasteland, you cannot live there. After all the cylons are dead would she hand herself over to civilian authority to be tried for her crimes against humanity? I think not. I think Cain was corrupt to her very core, she was a sociopath so blinded by anger that she had no plans for the future outside of her attempts to kill cylons.

Cain's first act was to murder her executive officer. Cain who was contradicting her own statement about not succumbing to blind rage, shot a man in the head without warning, because he would not go along with such suicidal behavior. The Pegasus executive officer was murdered by Cain because he was trying to defend the ship and its crew from reckless hate. Sadly this was only the first of the atrocities committed by Cain.

Cain came across a civilian fleet. To my understanding this fleet was not following Pegasus around, but was a simple over a dozen or so ships running from the cylons. Admiral Cain, ordered the ransacking of these poor peoples ships, the theft of there ftl drives ensured the would be found, killed or captured by the Cylon. Did Admiral Cain offer refuge to all these people she was leaving to die? No, she ordered all valuable people as well to be taken to Pegasus, while leaving the family's of such individuals behind. We know this not to be the end of the story though, because how many decent human beings would leave there family's behind. These men refused, and Admiral Cain ordered the family's be murdered. This act alone, the barbaric tactics used on innocent civilians shows that Admiral Cain is not acting in the best interest of the human race, and is actively contributing to its destruction.

We then come to Admiral Cain's most horrific act. The Pegasus had discovered a model six on there ship. We are shown that Admiral Cain did not attempt to interrogate the prisoner within normal regulations. Cain specifically ordered degradation, mental, and physical torture that is more obscene more horrific than anything you could imagine. Cain sanctioned brutal gang rape while admitting that those techniques had not yeilded any information. Then, on top of this, Cain sent her "cylon interrogator" to see Athena, Cain's man isn't in the room for a full minute before he is about to start Cain's brand of degradation tactics. Helo and Tyrol arrived just in time to stop the brutal gang raping of a pregnant women.

Helo and Tyrol came to the defense of an innocent, to protect someone who has saved thousands of lives countless times, and Cain wanted to execute them for killing a serial rapist?. Is she being serious, see when I first saw this, I'm thinking to myself well Cain must not know what has being going on, sadly I was wrong, Cain was well aware of the situation and wanted to kill Helo and Tryol anyway, I would love for some Cain supporters to make an attempt at justifying this. Helo and Tyrol deserve a medal.

The worst kind of evil, is that which will do anything for vengeance, for this evil is without limits, without restraint. Cain acted in a manner so contradictory to the event which triggered her response in the first place. All logic, all reason, any sense of duty, the things that an Admiral should posses would be that when your race is about to be extinct, you should exercise every possible way to avoid killing more innocent people. Cain felt differently, she thought murder, rape, and intimidation where the proper tactics to use. She treated her own people as though they were the enemy and she treated her prisoners, well, we all know what Cain did.

The innocents that Cain killed deserved better, who is to speak for them? Where is there justice? What crimes did the children commit? Did those men and women survive the cylons just to be killed by a psychotic admiral? These are the questions you must ask yourself before you try and defend Cain. You tell me why more innocent's deserve to die, even with a million spare parts the Pegasus couldn't win, the war was over, Cain killed those people for nothing.

Cylons are alive, they bleed, can have children and have almost identical genetics and anatomy. You cannot claim, its a machine, than use tactics like rape, mental, and physical torture on them. If it was a machine these tactics would be useless. The very fact that Cain wanted them used demonstrated Cain's acceptance that this person can feel. The 6 makes its own choices, there is no defense for Cain on this count either. Feel free to challenge any of these points, just be sure you can explain how you would feel if any of these things were done to you.

I take Cain very seriously, her actions represent the worst possible reaction to such extreme circumstances. I take no joy in bashing Cain, her actions though were inexcusable, I have not felt such utter disdain for a character since Joaquin Phoenix played Commodus in Gladiator. I am still in disbelief that some people on the show defended Cain, and I whole heartedly disagree with Kara Thrace, the Colonial's are much safer with Cain gone, I think we can all agree that one less soulless murderer commanding a warship is a very good thing.

Cain for her acts of barbarism got off way to easy. Admiral Cain brought us violence for the sake of violence. She needed a trial, her crimes were far worse than Balter's ever were, she had a choice in every decision she made. We the viewers were deprived any real closure, she needed to be brought to justice, her actions needed to be publicly condemned. Like Adama said, you have to be worthy of surviving. Even if what Cain's actions were the smart thing to do, there are lines you can never cross, she crossed them. It would be better for the Pegasus and all its crew to die defending those civilians than for the Pegasus to murder them. The torture of the six was done for her own personal satisfaction and had no impact on the survival of the human race or the fight against the cylon.

I hope one day the very memory of Cain will be looked upon as a disgrace to the human race, that in the new human/cylon world she is seen for what she was. A morally corrupt, compassionless bigot, a cold blooded murderer, and the very embodiment of everything that holds us back as a people.

[Prolescum]

Ah, this is the one I appreciated before.
Brilliant job, mnm4334.

[Pnutmaster]

I hope one day the very memory of Cain will be looked upon as a disgrace to the human race, that in the new human/cylon world she is seen for what she was. A morally corrupt, compassionless bigot, a cold blooded murderer, and the very embodiment of everything that holds us back as a people.

Is that you, St Heracles?

[Hofner1962]

@mnm
excellent post

[Batman316]

holy crap, it that a post or an essay?

[genji2000]

It's a great post, mnm. I like the fact that some of the newer members put in the time and effort to share their opinions about the show. There are plenty more episode threads out there to comment on.

[mnm4334]

Originally Posted by Batman316

holy crap, it that a post or an essay?

yeah..when i wrote it the first time it was much more concise, i didn't honestly did not notice how long it was because I had a set amount of points I wanted to touch on. It is very odd though when your have to scroll down a few times to read an entire post, my bad.

but I could very easily write an essay about Admiral Cain, i think that's one of the things that is so great about this show, there's a lot of room for analysis and quality discussion

on a side note, to this day I have not been able to find a quality Lost forum, most of the time you have a bunch of idiots posting one liners, so if anyone knows of good lost forum with maybe some of the members from here... I have been a fan of lost for about as long as bsg, im sure people have mixed reactions about the show, but theres gotta be someone here who likes it lol.

[JubalHarshaw]

Originally Posted by Prolescum

Ah, this is the one I appreciated before.
Brilliant job, mnm4334.

I absolutely agree. In fact, I've taken the liberty of editing it slightly for grammar, spelling, etc. and reposting it in my userspace:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/User:JubalHarshaw/Cain

Great job. I couldn't agree with you more.

I also find Razor painful to re-watch sometimes, but it is a very important contrast to Adama. Even though I feel Adama is far too forgiving after reading her logs. I agree with you that there was no excuse for her depravity.