PDA

View Full Version : The refugees jumped far beyond the "red line"


jerrywickey
April 27th, 2008, 10:22 AM
Admiral Adama tells us that the Colonials jumped from the Ragnar Anchorage Depot far past the "red line" into uncharted space. How big is the explored universe of the twelve colonies of Kobol? How much of the galaxy did the space fairing colonies have time to explore in the four thousand years since the thirteenth tribe of man left Kobol for Earth?

As you will see our galaxy alone is a very large place consisting of not millions of solar systems but hundreds of billions of solar systems. We only dare to contemplate the fact that there are hundreds of billions of galaxies in the visible universe.

Below is a picture representing the galaxy in which Earth resides, and a red circle representing the plausible extent of the Colonial exploration which represents Adama's "red line." Following that is the math justifying this representation.

http://www.geocities.com/jerrywickey/galaxbsg.JPG


Don't worry. I have a life.... almost. I am an electronics' engineer and woke one night to make myself a sandwich. I did the following calculations in my head and, since others might enjoy this information as much as I do, I spent an hour at work today checking the figures and writing them down. I know numbers, its my job, and would be happy to do my best to investigate any other questions members may have regarding the world of the intrepid Colonial refugees.


Earth is depicted in about its correct and actual location in our galaxy. The red circle represents the portion of the galaxy the 12 colonies of Kobol could plausibly have explored and mapped in detail in the 4000 years since the departing of the thirteenth tribe of man. This assumes that the thirteenth tribe left the company of their brethren shortly after Kobol became space fairing. The other twelve colonies appear to have stuck together.

If we believe the President, Kobol is in ancient ruins and its location known by the Cylons. I wonder what happened on Kobol that forced her thirteenth tribes to leave?


To make this map, we have three things which must be inferred.

1) How much of the galaxy could the children of Kobol have plausibly explored in 4000 years?

2) Where are the Colonials now in relationship to Earth?

3) Is the location of the 12 colonies likely even in the same galaxy as Earth?

Below is a representation of our galaxy with the real names of the galactic arms. According to the story, these names are influenced by our Kobol ancestors by means of tradition much like the names of the Greek gods.

The solar system in which Earth resides is about in the middle of the Orion-Cygnus spur of the Carina-Sagittarius arm. The name Sagittarius comes to us from the constellation Sagittarius which appears to reside in this galactic arm from the point of view of Earth. That part of the sky was named Sagittarius in ancient times, and might have been named by the people who came from the stars and knew that portion of the sky to be their original home.

Not just Sagittaron but all of the colonial planet systems might reside in that part of the galaxy. They are all close. The "red line" applies to all the colonies not just Sagittaron.

http://www.geocities.com/jerrywickey/MilkyWay.JPG

This is the first piece of the story which suggests the children of Kobol are near. Lets hope the BSG writers agree.

The second pieces of evidence is the vast distances of space travel which can be overcome by technology such as the FTL of the colonial fleet. When the admiral asked Gaeta if he could plot such a long jump, the response suggested the greatest difficulty was in ensuring the jump did not end inside a star or other equally disastrous location. If we assume the limit to FTL jumps is simply the ability to confidently observe the destination location for dangers and sometimes correctly and accurately locate planets into whose orbit the jumper is attempting, if such is the case, travel to another galaxy might could take thousands of jumps. Perhaps tens of thousands.

This information gives us a confident answer for question three and perhaps two as well. The twelve colonies who resided in relative close proximity to each other are likely in our own galaxy and perhaps in the Carina-Sagittarius arm of the galaxy, next door to Orion-Sygnus, Earth's location. The identified area of Carina-Sagittarius would be the more likely locations for star systems containing habitable water planets due to the density of stars and inter stellar radiation levels similar to Orion-Sygnus, and compatable with human life.

Lower interstellar dust levels of the arms further out, such as, Perseus might be less likely to provide the components of life. While the Crux-Scutum arm may experience higher interstellar radiation levels inconsistent with human life.

We can infer the probable extent of exploration with much greater confidants.

To make this inference we need to keep a few things in mind.

1) Many very interesting things in the galaxy are very far away, and would certainly have been singled out for intense observation. Scientific explorations would have been sent directly, but the maps and charts made of these areas would not have provided any usable galactic maps. These scientific expeditions would have covered only the area within a short distance from the objects of interest. Space which the explorers would have been able to observe in detail would certainly have been less than about ten light years.

These charts would in no way have provided a detailed map of the galaxy. Detailed maps of the space surrounding a hundred thousand sites of scientific interest comprising a thousand cubic light years each would be represented by dots smaller than pin pricks on the map of the galaxy above.

2) Detailed charts of all the star systems, dangers and other significant points of interest in any given area require merchant traffic on a regular basis.

3) To make a concerted effort to chart a region, a significant expenditure of effort would be required from the society making the inquiry.

To find out how much effort, we can not use current satellite technology. It is not analogous to the exploration which would have been required. We need to draw on our own shipping trade as an example instead. The population of Earth is 6 billion. How many sea going vessels do all societies on earth have which could... a) Sustain an ocean crossing? and b) Maintain a crew and scientific contingent for two months with food, fuel and other supplies?

These vessels would have to be substantial since their analogous vessels would be required to go to parts of the universe which are not yet unexplored. There would be no NAPA auto parts stores to pick up a replacement warp coil for one which failed. Vessels analogous to these on our world would be oil tankers, cargo ships and navy vessels the size of battle ships and aircraft carriers. How many ships of that substantial size can the economy of a population of 6 billion people maintain?

Well, lets see... Google "world inventory of ships" 'Seems there are about 3000 such ships in the world. War ships and other merchant ships might be suitable, but we must keep in mind that many ships are far too busy with their assigned activities to be recruited for missions of exploration alone. It would appear that the economy of a population of 6 billion might support 500 ships suitable for exploration.

If the twelve colonies had populated each of their own planets to its limit of 12 billion people each and the out planet colonies comprised another 10% of the total population than the total population of the 12 colonies might have been a maximum of 12 x 12,000,000,000 x 1.1 = 158,400,000,000 people, probably far less.

But lets make this red line as big as plausible and assume an economy driven by 160 billion people. By the analogy of our own world, that supports a maximum of 13,000 ships of exploration. Probably less. But let's error on the side of a larger area of exploration, not smaller.

If each vessel took 2 months to properly explore and chart a star system, it could chart six star systems per year.

If the population was constant for the entire 4000 years since Kobol became star fairing, which is possible but unlikely. It is more likely it started much smaller and grew to this population. But again to error on the larger side lets assume exploration proceeded at a constant rate of 13,000 ships exploring and charting 6 star systems each year for 4,000 years. This amounts to 312,000,000 star systems.

Wow! that's a lot of star systems. But there are about 400,000,000,000 star systems in the galaxy. 312 million would be less than one tenth of one percent of the galaxy's star systems.

One thousandths of the area of the picture of a typical galaxy above is a red circle about 1/16 of an inch in diameter. The circle shown is about 1/4 of an inch.

The plausible colonial's exploration of the universe to which Admiral Adama referred as the red line certainly falls well inside the circle depicted.

Jerry

stavrosg
April 27th, 2008, 01:14 PM
Very interesting post, thanks for sharing it :)

It might be really smaller though. Early in the miniseries it is revealed that the population of the 12 colonies was 20 billion people at the time of the attack, and at some point RDM told that all 12 are located in the same solar system (wiki link (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Colonies#Star_System)).

Another thing to concider is that there is no tyllium in that solar system, a fuel so important that it should have caused a lot of exploration for it.

ShadowEnigma
April 27th, 2008, 01:22 PM
\Another thing to concider is that there is no tyllium in that solar system, a fuel so important that it should have caused a lot of exploration for it.

Where did you hear this? I'm not debating I'm just curious, I've never heard that before.

stavrosg
April 27th, 2008, 01:37 PM
Where did you hear this? I'm not debating I'm just curious, I've never heard that before.
I think it was in the miniseries, when Roslyn is informed that Boomer found a mining ship and brought it along. I'll check this up again now to be sure though.

EDIT: No, strike that. I am sure it was told at some point. :-/

buerger23
April 27th, 2008, 09:46 PM
At a certain point in the series it was said that the Algae Planet was "x" distance away from the Ionian Nebula. And that distance if I remember correctly was the equivalent to a 1/10th of the way across our Galaxy. So they must have travelled no where in the first two seasons and just really started to travel in season three and the latest episodes.

jerrywickey
April 28th, 2008, 07:17 AM
Great replies. Thanks.

stavrosg,

Good info. I had heard all the colonies were in the same solar system also, and I had hoped that was not Galactica dogma, because twelve habitable planets in one solar system would be next to impossible.

But if so, it would certainly explain the colonies strong religious beliefs, since such an unusual solar system would certainly suggest extra natural involvement from the gods.

buerger23,

Thanks for this info. With each jump away from the Ionion nebula, were Starbuck rejoined the fleet was in the wrong direction according to Kara, it would stand to reason that Earth is near that nebula and the distance back to the colonies from Earth would then be nearly 1/10 the galactic diameter.

I did not have this information when I wrote this. But I am pleased that it fits nearly exactly the dimensions of my map.

Jerry

Sparrow
May 2nd, 2008, 03:58 PM
Oh please.. no more trolls in here....

Mercer
June 29th, 2008, 06:16 PM
My calculations put the Colonies at Kappa Auriga. Because Aldebaran is the maelstrom because the eye of the cow is none other than Taurus constellation, and Aldebaran has a gas giant 20X the size of jupiter orbiting it, so just simple charts on their directions and most of the stuff, Kobol, Colonies, New Caprica took place in the Auriga Constellation from what I can tell. I spent a long time on it...

Mercer
June 29th, 2008, 06:24 PM
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff32/FinalCylon/galaxygraphoverhead2.jpg
Someone else's conclusion after a few astro-nerds discussed it for 3 pages.

Here is my map I have made after using their findings, also noting this is a FLAT map and space isnt flat, but they used charts in BSG so...yeah.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd305/Mercer122/findchart.gif

The Dirt
June 30th, 2008, 12:16 PM
Just a couple of additions...

It had recently been established (within the last 4 weeks) that the Milky Way galaxy only has 2 arms and has a bar in the middle - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080603160245.htm

Next, I thought that the "red line" always referred to the capabilities of the FTL. Meaning, there is a maximum distance that can be calculated accurately - any jump beyond this puts the fleet at risk of jumping inside a planet or something. Adama's statement to go "into uncharted space" and "far beyond the red line," in my opinion, was a compound statement meant to mean they were jumping beyond where they can safely plot an FTL jump and beyond anywhere where the 12 Colonists had been.

Next, the fleet spent a lot of time jumping around aimlessly before they found Kobol, then began on their trip to find Earth. It was less than 9 months that they found Kobol, and about 9 months after the Colonies' destruction that they found New Caprica. The time spent jumping from New Caprica to Earth was somewhere over a year.

It is not certain whether Roslyn's original calculations (the one's Kara kept saying were wrong) would put them on the right track. It is also not certain that they were going in a more or less straight line toward Earth.

On the Colonies - 12 habitable worlds in one solar system is very improbable. However, no one states whether some of the less important colonies are on non-Earth-like planets, and people there are living in domes or artificial habitats. No one states that some of those worlds are not moons to the more important colonies. No one also states that they were not terraformed in the past. It is plausible that when the Colonists first came to the 12 planets, that some of these planets were not habitable, but due to the splintering nature of the 12 tribes, they were settled on anyway and terraformed. Rant complete.

Sgt Teta
July 27th, 2008, 06:58 AM
The "red line" is how far you vcan accurately plot a jump. Just like when using a map and compass, say your compass bearing is 0.05 of a degree off, this is fine untill you travel more than +/- ten miles, at which point you start being thrown tens, then of metres off course. The military get round this using mills, a more accurate direction system.

Imagine that error, 0.05 degrees on a light year jump, you could end up millions of k's away from where you want to be.

Imagine the cylons use mills, they can jump accurately in one hit. Its well known the cylons jump capability is thanks to their navigation.

So the colonials may not have travelled a massive distance, due to the innactuacy of their jump systems, but remember, a jump only has to take you half way across a solar system, and the cylons would never find you. Space is VERY VERY big, thats what you have to remember. A human can hide in a bush 50 foot away and be unseen, the same is true in space, you dont have to be THAT far away before you are safe.

I dont know how far they have traveled, but there would be no reason for the 13th colony to have travelled ALL THAT far, since it takes galactica what, 1000 jumps or so with current technology to reach earth, it would have taken the 13th tribe 2000 with their antique technology.
To them, that would have seemed so far that no evil could ever have caught them! Why go any further?

snowmelter
October 19th, 2008, 03:30 AM
Regarding the red line: If I were to build a Battlestar, one of the things I would not skimp on is astronomical computers and telescopes. I would think that each and every battlestar would have a significant chunk of crew and hard/software to take such readings simply because in order to make FTL jumps one would NEED to have the most current information available. I think, in the interest of reducing "technobabble" the writers have pretty much left this alone. It seems to be implied but not talked about. After all, nothing is quite as "techonbabbly" as the mathmatics in astronomy and physics (the audience would be face down in their cheetos three seconds into the first conversation about such). In any case, it would seem to me that the battlestars can
extend the red line, extrapolating from their last know position and using the information they have gathered. This would explain the fact that after they jumped beyond the 'red line' they still manage to jump regularly without killing everyone.

As for the 12 colonies in one system: I believe Ron Moore has been quoted as saying as much. While I agree that twelve habitable planets in the same system seems like a strech, the BSG RPG gets around this by having more than one planet share the same orbit (the earth on the opposite side of the sun theroy). I don't even know if this is possible or has ever been observed in real space. Also, Boomer makes it very clear that not all the colonial settlements were on hospitible or even habital worlds as the place she originally came from (she says) was Troy, an outpost who's dome failed, killing all the colonists there.

BTW: excellent maps. Thanks to everyone who made those, they were awesome to look at.

snowmelter
October 19th, 2008, 03:32 AM
although it is implied in 33 that the calculations get more difficult, which is presumably why they have to constantly check to make sure every ship is on board, so to speak, with the current calculations which they don't seem to be able to do.

MHall
October 19th, 2008, 09:53 AM
I agree that the "red line" is like the red region on your tachometer in your car, except for distance. By the way, in the Miniseries draft script, that distance was a bit over 30 light years. No one had plotted a single jump that distance.

In the zoom out in Crossroads, the Ionian Nebula is within the blue-white blob at the bottom (the upper smaller blob):

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/843/galaxycompositesmallerbt2.jpg

The above is a composite of multiple images, so you can see a bit wider area. Note the counterclockwise orientation of the galaxy. (Usually the Milky Way is shown from the other side, with clockwise arms as viewed from galactic North.)

Question: Is the blue-white blob at the edge of the galaxy?

genji2000
October 19th, 2008, 11:22 AM
Yes.

BTW, in the Miniseries Adama's epiloguesque speech implies that the the 'red line' is 'known space', and that the fleet have jumped way beyond it. There have been arguments that 'the red line' means plottable FTL jumps, but I stick by the rules they set up in the Miniseries.

MHall
October 19th, 2008, 11:31 AM
The Miniseries script makes it clear that the red line is not known space, but rather the longest jump that can normally be computed.

genji2000
October 19th, 2008, 11:47 AM
The Miniseries script makes it clear that the red line is not known space, but rather the longest jump that can normally be computed.

"We've Jumped far beyond the Red Line and now we're in uncharted space."

This line of dialogue makes it completely clear that "the Red Line" = (i.e. no room for dispute) "charted space". You can misinterpret the line, but dramatically it means the Red Line equates to known, charted space.

Other scripted lines, I know, contest this and use "the Red Line" to mean what can be plotted for a particular jump. To my mind, neither can be taken as a rule, and neither can be relied on to support any kind of theory.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.
October 19th, 2008, 02:55 PM
11The "Red Line" probably has a dual meaning here.

For whatever reason, the Colonials never really decided to further their explorations of space, as far as we've been told anyway. Coupled with that, and the fact that Galactica hadn't jumped in 20 or so years, you can write Adama's comments off as confusion.

MHall
October 20th, 2008, 05:45 AM
Okay, you're probably right. I'd say the actual Miniseries line, which omits a few words from the draft, supports your position better:

Adama: We're a long way from home. We've jumped way beyond
the Red Line into uncharted space.

Back to the miniseries draft script:

TIGH
Where we going?
Adama reaches under the table, rummages through the charts, finally pulls out a star chart. He looks it over, then points to a location.
ADAMA
The Prolmar Sector.
LEE
That's gotta be... thirty light years.
TIGH
That's way past the Red Line...
ADAMA
(to Gaeta)
Can you plot the Jump?
GAETA
(hesitant)
I've never plotted a Jump that far, sir...
ADAMA
Few men have. Can you do it?
Gaeta hesitates just a split-second.
GAETA
Yes, sir.
ADAMA
On your way.
Gaeata takes the star chart, heads for the FTL station.
TIGH
The margin of error at that distance...
ADAMA
I know. We might end up somewhere else entirely, in
which case we'll have a whole new set of problems. But
at least we won't be here.
Adama returns to the chart of the storm.

In the Miniseries draft version, if the Red Line is synonymous with uncharted space, this would be a bit odd, since they apparently are not making a longer jump than anyone before (a "few men have".) It would imply that Ragnar is not near the center of charted space, and as I recall Ragnar is quite close to the Colonies, implying a lopsided exploration. However, in the actual Miniseries, that line was changed from "few men have" to "no one has", fixing that paradox.

Could the Red Line be the maximum safe jump distance, beyond which even the tiniest round-off error in your calculations could put you into the middle of a sun? And for some reason the Colonials were too scared to jump further than one jump from the Colonies?

Getting back to the original question, 30 light years on the scale of the galaxy would be about a sixth of a pixel in that image, or a third of a pixel for 60 light years in diameter. Of course, it's not canon that charted space was at most 60 light years in diameter, since this is referring to the draft version.

It's sort of funny that they now take 13,000 light years in relative stride, but this is in part due to the use of a Cylon jump computer, I believe, as was used in LDYB for the raptors.

Sgt Teta
October 24th, 2008, 12:57 PM
Perhaps the colonials seminly limited lack of exploration is similar to us no longer going to the moon.

They have plenty of resourses on their colonies, long jumps are expensive, they've calculated that there is little more to find further away from the colonies.

only an idea

XenonRexroth
November 20th, 2008, 07:50 PM
On the Colonies - 12 habitable worlds in one solar system is very improbable. However, no one states whether some of the less important colonies are on non-Earth-like planets, and people there are living in domes or artificial habitats. No one states that some of those worlds are not moons to the more important colonies. No one also states that they were not terraformed in the past. It is plausible that when the Colonists first came to the 12 planets, that some of these planets were not habitable, but due to the splintering nature of the 12 tribes, they were settled on anyway and terraformed. Rant complete.
It has been theorized that every star has at least one planetary body. with are current technology it is extremely difficult to pin point possible atmosphere or life bearing planets (rocky planets) so it could be more than highly probable to have a ring of life bearing planets. I think the colonies animosity is more akin to planetary wealth (natural resources) or any number of factors that make one hate another. Even on are planet there is enough hate between countries to make Lucifer dance with joy.