Escape Velocity - 4/25/08

[Shane]

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/thumb/2/2f/4x04_-_Escape_Velocity_-_Promo_1.jpg/640px-4x04_-_Escape_Velocity_-_Promo_1.jpg




Streamed 12PM Sharp on SciFi.com (US Only)
TV: 10pm EST on SciFi Channel!

[Xenon242]

Man ... is it Friday, already?

[Leoben]

I will only say this until later. Only showing the first 20 minutes this morning is a sin against God...or The Gods, your choice. :P

[ThPrime]

The meaning of "episode preview" is revealed! Doh! Ah well, the rest is in ten hours.

[Sgtpayne]

Hey everyone! Just decided to post a hello! More after the episode...

[EverlastingGaze]

Interesting episode....Roslin is losing her standing but her not so subtle death threat to Baltar was cool. I'm gonna die and maybe I'll take you with me.

Poor Chief is cracking up, ao is Tigh by the looks of it.

Tori is still all Nietzsche...I'm perfect so i don't have to be Moral.

Dissapointed

[Shane]

Two words: FRAKING GOD!

More later...

[EverlastingGaze]

sorry incomplete post........

....by Starbucks only shot being her asleep...
next week looks like mutiny aboard the Demetrius and Leoben...

[Leoben]

Another stellar episode. Gives us some new tidbits to chew on. The Caprica/Saul thing is interesting, though not entirely unexpected. Also interesting was the way it looked like Head Six actually able to exert physical force. Normally when we see those types of things in the show, it looks like somethings he's doing himself.

I also noticed a very curious glance from Head Six to Tory there at the end. Perhaps Head Six is catching on. The Galen stuff is really interesting. He's about to spill it, provided he doesn't go crazy. Also, did anyone think that Anders was going to blurt out his secret to Kara there at the end?

On a side note the trailer for the next episode has me almost as excited as anything so far this season. I'm sure those who saw it can guess why.

[Sgtpayne]

OK...here are my two cents.

Emotion. What is it?

A LOT of frakkin' emotions were examined in this episode; Pain, Love, and loss being the three key elements of them. But, they are not exclusive to humans, as it would appear.

And, what was it with the "double" scenes? Adama's calling out of Tyrol in the Bar? Tigh's visions of Ellen (which honestly had me seeing double...)? Clearly two of the four are seeing these "visions", will it be extending to the others as well?

I could go into the Cult of Baltar, but I'm not sure how I feel about it exactly...

[Chiefchess]

Interesting. So Tyrol doesn't know Tory's role in Cally's death. Something for the show to revisit later, I'm sure.
So Tyrol still loves Boomer. Some news for you Tyrol. Steal a ship. Go to the cylon fleet, sweep Boomer off her feet and bring her back with you. And take flowers. All women (humans and cylons) love flowers.
OK seriously Tyrol. Your competition is Cavil. CAVIL! Anyone is more appealing than Cavil :thumbsup:. So get your head straight, accept you are a cylon, take care of your son, and then get to business.
Speaking of love, what is up with BSG lately? Tigh and Caprica. Adama and Roslin. Baltar and Tory (along with 30 something females). This is starting to become one of those dang soap operas you see during the day. Let's get back to the cylon civil war and make allies already so we can blow the 1s, 4s, and 5s out of the universe!:)

[EverlastingGaze]

I'm agree about next week...it looks great...I though Head 6 being able to physically move Baltar was kinda strange he looked like a puppet...then she always has pulled the strings so no change there.

I don't think Anders will tell Kara just yet...she's already said she'd kill him if she ever found out he was a Cylon...though perhaps he felt he was safe to say so whilst she was asleep...that kinda secrets got to be some hefty baggage.

I love this show so much I watch it online at 3 in the morning just so I don't have to wait until Tuesday to watch on Sky One...then I watch it again on Tuesday.

I can't believe the didn't show us what happened amongst the Cylons especially after the huge happenings last week.

[ThPrime]

A slower paced introspective episode but a great deal happened. Only Jane Espenson could have wrangled Tigh and Six together and still leave the show with dignity :thumbsup:

Final four individuals. Tory evil. Die Tory die.

Head FRAKING Six. Whooaaaa. I suppose the long, bitter, hotly contested four year debate with many forum casualties has finally come to an end.

All will be revealed!

[managizzle]

Interesting episode...feel like I need to watch it a few more times before I can make a coherent comment.

[Mishakal]

I'm still processing this episode but I know that I love the whole Saul/Caprica-Six beating and make-up sex thing...

Very fun... I wonder what she will do when she learns that he is a cylon?

[Jason1975]

I'm still processing this episode but I know that I love the whole Saul/Caprica-Six beating and make-up sex thing...

Very fun... I wonder what she will do when she learns that he is a cylon?

I think she already knows it

[Mishakal]

I think she already knows it

I don't remember her saying anything though........

Oh wait the cameras.... duh!

Ok I wonder how everyone else will react to the Saul/Caprica-Six porno....

[afleaah]

some how the last 2 eps keep me wantin more...
like there was supposed to b more to it...

i wanted to see more scenes wit adama and roslin
and with starbuck
and the results of the basestar battle...

i dont like tory
shes EVIL...(shudders)
to me she tends to remind me of d'anna...
controlling, domminant and manipulative...
she needs to die...chief should take that knife in the last supper pic and stab her repeatedly...

does chief really hate cally?

liked the parts with caprica and tigh
and when adama was readin to roslin again...i felt tears in my eyes...
you notice that all the books he reads to her are reflecting either wats goin on or wat they are most likely feelin...
i like that

cant wait for....
the return of leoben- *dun dun dun
in next weeks eps

(im a nugget...hope i havent said tooo much)...

[TheKid965]

I wonder if I was the only one who saw this scene the way I did...

It's the whole business with Adama and his favorite book, to which he's never been able to bring himself to read the ending of. In particular, his line at episode's end about how "we're getting close to the part I've never read."

Now, the reason that line stands out for me is because the show itself is, of course, getting close to its own end; all the pieces on the board are being moved into endgame positions. For many people, myself included, the original Galactica series was a favorite story we've "read" many times over the years - but we've never really known how it all ended, thanks to Mr. Neilsen. (I won't mention G80 if you won't.) Now that this particular Galactica's story is about to end, we will in all likelihood finally have some semblance of closure, some idea of where the survivors of humanity fit into the mythology and history of our own world (which was always one of the things that facinated me the most about the old show).

I'm not saying there's any significant meaning to Adama's line beyond a subtle acknowledgment that we are coming into the home stretch for the show and its story, but it does have a special sort of resonance with me for these reasons. Even if that wasn't intentional, I thought it was a neat interpretation.

The episode itself... I'm not sure why, but for some reason it felt like filler to me. Sure, we had Baltar's cult clashing with a hardliner religious sect, and Baltar deciding he's had quite enough of being the galaxy's punching bag (and Head-Six... whoa, didn't know she could do that, that's bound to get people wondering all over again just what she's supposed to be), which are all interesting developments. And the scenes with Tigh and Six definitely made me sit up and take notice. But for my own part, I was much more drawn in by the "Cylon civil war" than anything that's been going on in the Fleet of late, and this episode did absolutely nothing towards even hinting at an answer to the question "Where do we go from here?" And Roslin... I've given up trying to figure out where she's going. I know that dying people are allowed to get a bit... seedy?... as they come to terms with all the unfinished business they're inevitably going to leave behind, but what was up with that scene with Baltar? Was it a threat, a warning, or just Laura saying "I have nothing left to fear from you, you sad and pathetic man, so you no longer have any power over me?" And I'm still wondering if Zarek was on the right track last week with his suspicions about Laura, especially given the way she delivered what amounted to a "frak you" to the whole Quorum.

And all we get out of the Demetrius is one quick shot used as background for Baltar's final sermon? I'd be exceptionally annoyed if it didn't look like next week's show more than makes up for that slight, however.

As long as BSG has me actively wondenig what's going to happen next rather than dreading what the next show will bring (which happened all too often during S3, when I lost interest), I'll keep coming back for more. I must admit, this ride has been pretty good so far...

[Osprey]

yeah, i think cap six has figgered out who/what saul is ...


/what does she do with the info.? can she communicate it outside the fleet?

[Dzonatas]

That was a very fast episode. Lots of things happening in short time. We can see why it has its title. I would expect next week to quickly pick-up on where it left off.

Sual Tigh is gonna smile and you're gonna see his teeth light up red one at a time back and forth. Six is gonna rip off her clothes in cylon lust. =p

[Dzonatas]

I tend to close my eyes through the cut-scene preview. I know sometimes they are from a deleted scene and sometimes they are real scenes to come. Even we I go to a movie, I hate watching the commercials for a movie. I like it like that. -- not seeing any bit of a movie before I watch it. lol

Everybody is talking about Leoban next week, i guess that was in the post cut-scenes. Oh wells... we know they are coming back.

I think this one put an end to some slower soap tells.

[Proxenus]

I'm getting a little tired of episodes that don't go anywhere.

[Osprey]

um, it went somehwere -- the f5 get much closer to being revealed, baltar is about to manage to splinter the fleet, and i would now put up money that laura never lays eyes on earth ...

[Proxenus]

I don't see where it went.

You said that the f5 were "closer" to being revealed. I don't see how considering that the only one who knew about them is dead in the last episode.

You said that Baltar is about to splinter the fleet. He hasn't yet.

You indicated that you are now convinced that Roslin would never see Earth. However, we knew this already.

As far as I can tell, nothing went forward. It was another touchy-feely episode, much like last week's.

[Osprey]

u don't think bill, lee, and others are putting 2 and 2 together?

sheesh, gaius only gets 60 minutes to split the fleet? who knew there was a shot clock?

i know it was "proclaimed" laura would not see earth, but such things can be "overruled"

/agreeing to disagree i suppose

[Osprey]

catching the re-run ...

sooo, adama doesn't have to run anything by a "demotion board" apparently? he can just wave his hand and galen drops, what, 3 rungs?

does this mean 1/2 the f4 will now be off the galactica?

[Leoben]

I'm not sure Caprica knows about Saul yet. She might have an idea though. Part of the time it sounded like she had him pegged, but I think she was more referring to him as a human.

As I recall, Admiral Cain just busted Lee down a rank or two without a board or anything. I imagine Adama has the same power.

I gotta say, even though Galen is losing it a bit, I liked his Cally speech. It really opened him up a bit, found out that he never really stopped caring for Boomer. To top it off, that if he was being truthful (which I honestly think he was) he really did feel he went slumming after he lost the person he really cared for. I'll have to re-watch the scene to peg down exactly how he words it. It just sort of struck me as how I always thought he did feel, even if he never came out with it.

By the way, too close of a call with Racetrack there. Wouldn't you say Shane? :P

[james968]

I don't know if Apollo is yet to the scheming part of being a politician yet. (He's getting there). But he see Tory at Baltar's Service.

I found it interesting that Roslin is thinking about her own funeral and is accepting her death (when you start shopping for how you want your funeral to go.....)

I was a little disappointed No Cylons, 20 seconds of Demtritius, no more revelations about the FF.

I do wonder how long the video crew is going not check on tigh. (I mean after an hour especially with all that grunting going on...). Interesting that the guards were more afraid of what Tigh would do to the cylon. At the start it looked like C6 was really getting into beating the crap out of him and didn't care about the removing pain part.

Does this mean that Boomer is going to have to beat the crap out of the Chief to help him get over his pain? (Though Tory seems to be into S&M when she feels guilty)

[OTW]

James Callis never ceases to impress me, loved the "puppet strings" moment.
Although I don't think it implies Virtual-Six can exert physical force, just that Baltar moves himself to act like she can.

But what happened to Baltar's head-Baltar? That was just wonderful.

[Asiriya]

I have mixed feelings; on the one hand, it was enjoyable, on the other, I have, as has happened several times this season, no idea how this episode ties into the upcoming story. The episode ends just as we're beginning to push forwards, antagonising, but good story telling I suppose.
I don't know if Caprica can tell Tigh is FF, it seems strange that she's smashing his face off and her feelings taht they are near don't get any closer.
At the end I thought she'd twigged it, but that might just be her realising what he really needed was a womans touch.
Baltar. Hmm. I don't want him to rip the fleet apart again, I think that's happened too much with him. I was hoping for him to have a quiet life with his concubines, but I suppose after the terrible (as in really, really poor) Sons of Ares attack scene that won't happen.
I find it frustrating that there wasn't much Demetrius, as in more than 20 seconds. I really that that they would end Baltar's speech and it would flick to Starbuck, suddenly realising where they needed to go.
I also expected Baltar to announce he was a Cylon or something, and the same thought to occur to Starbuck, but that didn't happen.
My favourite scene would have to be that in the Bar. Olmos' acting was fantastic as he said not to defile Cally's memory, brought tears to my eyes.

EDIT: The raptor crash scene? My heart was in my mouth at the thought of Racetrack being dead, most effective death scene of all if it had been real, in my opinion. The fact taht it wasn't disappointed me.

[EverlastingGaze]

I agree about the crash scene...I love Racetrack and I did think she was dead or at least hurt and then there they are as if nothing happened....Any time Olmos is on the screen in this season so far I get sad...especially when he's reading...Is it just me or do Roslins' actions seem desperate some how, its kind of tragic as though shes clinging on as long as she can...her threat to Baltar was cool though.

[tsunamident]

I think Caprica def knows Saul is a Cylon. IF that lowly Raider Detected Anders as one, why wouldn't one of the almighty 12 be able to detect one of their own? If anything, I think she came to the realization while she was beating him.

[ShadowEnigma]

By the way, too close of a call with Racetrack there. Wouldn't you say Shane? :P

Haha you should've been talking to him online when it happened :p

I think the episode was good, and it did go places. All of the FF are exploring their parts in this. Baltar has pushed forward and started causing problems for the fleet, which he seems good at. Does anyone else get the slightly impression that Tory might be set up as a Judas figure to Baltar? I don't know, the idea just popped into my head earlier when I was reading another thread.

I am sad that they didn't do anything with Demetrius (besides that one scene, woo) and the Cylons. Putting off the consequences of the Cavil attack is just plain mean (or a long cliffhanger :p).

Galen's part was quite interesting. Though I don't know if the Admiral did that permanently or just temporarily until he gets a hold of himself. The latter wouldn't surprise me. With how long they have worked together, I don't think the Admiral would want to lose him. Who is chief now though?

I think Caprica def knows Saul is a Cylon. IF that lowly Raider Detected Anders as one, why wouldn't one of the almighty 12 be able to detect one of their own? If anything, I think she came to the realization while she was beating him.

Well they are programmed not to even think about them. So I don't think the average skinjob would be able to figure it out. If they did, they would've all been found out on Caprica Six. It seems the creators didn't want the SS to find the FF though. But C-Six seems to have some sort of sense. I'm not sure whether or not she thinks he is a Cylon, but I'm leaning towards it a little.

[Shane]

I think she already knows it

I'm not sure Caprica knows about Saul yet. She might have an idea though. Part of the time it sounded like she had him pegged, but I think she was more referring to him as a human. .... By the way, too close of a call with Racetrack there. Wouldn't you say Shane? :P

I don't know if Caprica can tell Tigh is FF, it seems strange that she's smashing his face off and her feelings taht they are near don't get any closer. ... EDIT: The raptor crash scene? My heart was in my mouth at the thought of Racetrack being dead, most effective death scene of all if it had been real, in my opinion. The fact taht it wasn't disappointed me.

I think Caprica def knows Saul is a Cylon. IF that lowly Raider Detected Anders as one, why wouldn't one of the almighty 12 be able to detect one of their own? If anything, I think she came to the realization while she was beating him.

Now that I have had some rest, I so think that C-Six knew Tigh was a Cylon. The "Ellen" face on Six really creepy the first time around, but then I was like... Tigh is losing it. Not that's Cheif and Tory arn't they are to in their own way.

From the episode this is what I think is implied:


C-Six knows Tigh is a Cylon.
Vir Six knows Tory is a Cylon.
Baltar knows Tory is a Cylon.
Chief thinks Adrmial Adama knows he is a Cylon, but is unsure.

All of these things, especially the Vir Six, is kinda like Star Wars where Obi-Wan was able to Luke that he wasn't the only one. Also the Force being able to tell who is a Jedi or not.

Racetrack's flight (even the pre-flight) was crazy. First off, the FX shots shown of the port-side pod were like great. Me and Shadow Enigma were watching and talking at the same time. When I saw Racetrack Raptor crash here is a summary of what I said:

Shane: That FX shot rocks


Shadow: People walking around on the landing deck


Shane: Racetrack
hot hot hot hot hot


Shadow: Raptor is going to have issues
Oh I called it


Shane: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
DO NOT DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NONOBOBOSO{


Shadow: What did she slam into to?


Shane: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Shadow: another ship on the runway?


Shane: Runway


Let it be known.. I was very scared when they showed the Raptor on the deck in a million pieces. I kinda feel sorry for Chief as Racetrack does. Her ECO... not so much. The flashbacks of Cally and her small hand moments were very nice memory of why Chief was having so much trouble.

Overall, a good episode and I can't wait for next week's episode! :)

[redwards95]

Good episode. I imagine it'll be even better when watched on DVD without the week delay between the episodes before and after.

I noticed Roslin's hair immediately and assumed it was a wig even before she admitted it to Baltar. As she had the same hair in her visions of the opera house, I suspect we are getting close to the time when Hera's importance is revealed.

The writers are doing a great job of keeping me guessing who is the final cylon. I can see a good case to be made for 4 or 5 people and a new possibility I hadn't considered before occurred to me after last night's episode.

I'm very much looking forward to next week's episode based on the preview.

I wonder if the Leoben will be from Natalie's ship? The only false note really in this week's episode was failing to show us the result of Cavil's attack on Natalie.

I thought Caprica was going to see a red flash when she removed Tigh's patch. My guess is she still doesn't know he's a Cylon, but it won't be many more episodes before Tigh confesses to her.

[Xenon242]

Overall, a pretty intense episode, though I have to agree with Asiriya that the Sons of Ares scene really wasn't all that great.

I'd have to say that CapSix has an idea of what Tigh is, not because of any sort of subconscious signal, but just by virtue of the fact he just keeps showing up. She's an intelligent character, and I think she can put two and two together.

Now, the one thing I did come away with is the fact that Tigh is really risking his neck by doing this. He's behaving erratically enough for someone to bring this up to Adama. Evacuating the brig staff like that? It's going to get reported, and Tigh's going to find himself in a pretty uncomfortable situation with the Old Man if he keeps up.

As for the Chief ... hm. I don't know what to make of all those scenes. I'm going to have to re-watch.

And my really negative opinion of Tory only got reinforced with this ep. Gah.

Saul, Saul, Saul ... hold it together, man.

[Dzonatas]

I think Caprica doesn't know but surely does intend to find out. She knows they are close. She wants to break him because of his curiousity.

Meanwhile, he is hallucinating about Ellen. That was made obvious when Caprica expressed her love for Baltar, but he saw Ellen say it. He was like "what???" (and he cleared out the guards)

[ThPrime]

The "Ellen" face on Six really creepy the first time around, but then I was like... Tigh is losing it. Not that's Cheif and Tory arn't they are to in their own way.

Tory subconsciously whipped out her Cylon Super Strength when she needed it. Along that line, I'll tentatively speculate that Tigh and Tyrol are unconsciously flexing their projection abilities. Neither are happy with their lot in life and might be changing their surroundings without realizing it. Tigh gets to be reunited with his wife, so that she can forgive him. Tyrol finally gets someone (Adama) to speak truthfully to him about the things that overwhelmingly burden his mind. Why doesn't Tory see things also? She doesn't need to at the moment. She thinks she's perfect.

Or maybe not :)

Even more interesting, isn't it suspicious how they suddenly have Cylon Super Powers out of the blue, simply by becoming aware that they are Cylons. How very fishy!

[james968]

I think when C6 got around his defenses (with Head Baltar's Help) in Crossroads, she realized he was pretty damaged and her subsequent beliefs are continuations along that path. Not sure if she is playing it for her compassionate side (is there one?) or as a way to get power/escape/see hera again whatever?

In one of the preview's (filled with lots of little bity scenes), which was put out right before HtBM
It shows a few seconds were Tigh is doing a One-handed Neck choke on C6. I think at that point is when she realized his one of the FF. (Or possibly imeediately before and that it why he's pretending to be Darth Vader and she's the Rebel Captain.


I also wonder, so far none of the WTF has made really any mention of Nicki's Hybrid state. (Except the Chief's Auditory Hallucination Adama*). Will Tigh put 2 & 2 together, and realize Nicki might be important.

Just Imagine:
Tigh walks into Caprica6's cell, carrying Nicki. C6 has a very confused look on her face. Tigh gives C6 a peck on the cheek.
Tigh: Hi 6, Crappy day in CIC. You still can't see Hera. Bought you another Human/Cylon Hybrid to play with, instead

*I know we see Adama saying it, but I think this name sounds better.

[Proxenus]

catching the re-run ...

sooo, adama doesn't have to run anything by a "demotion board" apparently? he can just wave his hand and galen drops, what, 3 rungs?

does this mean 1/2 the f4 will now be off the galactica?

I can't speak for the Colonial military, but a Field Officer in the US Military (Colonel and above) can demote someone one pay grade without a trial under the UCMJ (Article 15).

[ShadowEnigma]

Yeah, and considering there is nobody superior to him to say otherwise, I think the Admiral can get away with it. Once again, I don't think it will be permanent, I think he was just doing it to help Galen. I have a feeling if he gets his act back together, Adama will put him right back where he should be.

[stavrosg]

Vir Six knows Tory is a Cylon.
Baltar knows Tory is a Cylon.


I'm not sure about this; I have to rewatch it of course because English is not my native tongue and I think I missed some (a lot of) things said or implied. But I think that pretty much everyone but C-Six are still in the dark regarding the FF.



Chief thinks Adrmial Adama knows he is a Cylon, but is unsure.

I disagree completely. The Admiral believes that Tyrol's current state is because of Cally's death.
On the other hand, Tyrol is terrified with the thought that everybody will find out what's going on and that burned him out. Quite badly, too.
Racetrack's flight (even the pre-flight) was crazy. First off, the FX shots shown of the port-side pod were like great. Me and Shadow Enigma were watching and talking at the same time. When I saw Racetrack Raptor crash here is a summary of what I said:
[...]
Let it be known.. I was very scared when they showed the Raptor on the deck in a million pieces. I kinda feel sorry for Chief as Racetrack does. Her ECO... not so much. The flashbacks of Cally and her small hand moments were very nice memory of why Chief was having so much trouble.My thoughts exactly. The other miracle is that apparently Chief was able to bring it together and repair it.

[Mishakal]

I can't believe that no one has brought this up but during the scene where the Quroum is arguing with Roslin over her order to restrict assemblies one of the Delegates stated that the beliefs of Baltar's Cult are not that far off from "Mithranism" (which some of her voters apparantly believe in).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithranism

Mithranism is an extinct religion that emerged at the sametime Christanity did on earth and both religions had similar beliefs, some historians think that if Christanity had died an early dead then Mithranism would be the global religion of choice.

This is an interesting link to Earth and might be a hint of when Battlestar is set in Real Time.

[james968]

One thing that struck me when Tory was about to rape Baltar, wouldn't he remember the last incredibly strong woman who threw him down and fracked him......... was a cylon.

When Racetrack crashes on the Deck, it looks like the raptor takes out a Landram (of some type).

The Admiral-Chief Confrontation, (especially E. Olmos look on his face). With Adama reading all these murder mysteries and the Chief's comments "I wanted to shoot her myself". Will Adama or someone start asking questions about Cally's death. (I don't think its likely, but it could happen).

[raginggaijin]

Long time listener, first time caller. Kudos to the crew here on the Wiki and the Forums because you are doing a frakking fantastic job.

Yeah, Galen settled. His comments really pushed his feelings to the fore, about how people settle for what they can get, not what they want/need. "I settled. I settled for that shriek. With those dull vacant eyes. The oiled cabbage stench of her. And why? Because this is my life! This is the life I picked!" This was pure emotional vitriol pouring forth from anger and fear. This sort of writing keeps me coming back because it has a sense of the Real. I don't doubt there are people out there who may think the same thing after this episode. That's great writing to me.

Adama is a cylon. Remember that first series scrap piece of paper? He projects on his Anniversary. Yeah, I think Adama really said those things to Galen, which pushed him.

I love how the writers are making Baltar out to the Jesus figure.

The President's hate for Baltar is blinding her. She is akin to the figures who had power to protect, and their fear causes them to make decisions that could be used against the populace.

Tigh. My favorite character in this series. He's looking upon Six and hearing her words, it's close to the forgiveness he needs. So close, yet not enough. So he seeks the pain as a form of sacrifice. He hates Baltar so much, (and the person at the NYComicCon who said Tigh's voice is tinged with hatred is so true!) The beating from Six is the sacrifice he needs. ("More weight" ~ The Crucible.) In the end, does he make love to Six? I hope so, because he's projecting Ellen. Oh, and I believe the Six knows. She gives him the Nietscheshehshe "Look into the Abyss" speech, which was a brilliant touch.

The scene with Six manipulating Baltar is visual proof that she isn't a figment of his imagination; as one poster said, he was like a marionette. "I want to stay down, I really want to stay down." I loved that part. It reminds me of the verse: Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's will that prevails. She is an Angel of God, as she says. So going off of this, it lends credence to the belief of the Old Gods, because a servant of the One God is manifest. It is implied the One God was cast out by the Old Gods because He was a jealous god, (As spake in the series and the Wiki), and was exiled to Earth. Since God has his Angels, why wouldn't the Old Gods help their believers? (They have. How do you think they found the algae planets. The Old Gods seem to believe in hardship as their guide, where the One God relies on Science. Which is probably why the One God is gaining popularity; their sermon is "You are Perfect the way you are", and their believers always seem to come out on top. Especially after getting your face beat in.)

Look, I'm a dude and I like to think I'm frakking tough. I've been in my share of fights in my youth, I know jail isn't a frakking joke, and I'll protect what's mine because that's my duty and I love them, dig? So imagine my frakkin' surprise when I watch the final scene with Six and Tigh and I hear Saul ask for more like the frakking godzilla that he is, I hear her words, then they kiss, and I'm looking around to see if my lady is going to catch me crying. I mean seriously, knock it off: Writers.

Something in the universe loves me.
The sermon of Gaius Baltar:

I'm not a priest. I'm not even particularly a good man.
I've infact, been a profoundly... selfish man.
That doesn't matter, you see.
Something in the Universe, loves me.
Something in the Universe. Loves. The entity that is Me.
I will choose to call this something: God.
A singular spark, that dwells in the soul of every living being.
If you look inside yourself, you will find this spark too. You will.
But you have to look.
Deep.
Love your faults. Embrace them.
If God embraces them, then how can they be faults?
Love yourself. You have to love yourself.
If we don't love ourselves, how can we love others?
And when we know what we are, then we can find the truth out about others.
See what they are. The truth about Them.
And you know what the truth is! The truth about Them!
About You? About Me? Do You?
The truth is we are all perfect.
Just as we are.
God only loves that which is Perfect, and He loves You. He loves You because you are Perfect.
You. Are. Perfect.
Just As You Are!

(If you are the GM: Hands out, arms wide pose, get a light behind him to act as halo, awesome, cut to the candy ass for contrast. Cut and print!)


Who gets that kinda love from parents? I'd follow the One God. Hell of a role to follow, especially with a Harem. =) Had I known getting my ass beat meant having chicks pick me up and take care of me, I'd have loved High School. =P

Frak, this is going on my blog. And why do I want to watch Iron Man really bad? >.<

Edit: I'm going on record as Tigh raged "Get your hand off me, you frakking freak machine!" was a /salute from the BSG writers to Charlton Heston passing. /beer to CH

Oh, the Harem saw Baltar talking to his Angel, and being dominated by his Angel. So they know.

[Xenon242]

Actually, yeah the marionette bit ... like you said, everyone saw it, there's no hiding it now. I daresay what that is going to do is precipitate a flow of other people flocking to Baltar and his new religion. That event, more so than his speech afterwards, I think is really going to set things into motion.

[Shane]

Welcome to the board raginggaijin (http://www.battlestarforum.com/member.php?u=697)!

[OldManRivers]

Baltar as Jesus is one interesting storyline.

But I've mentioned RDM's dance with religious spirituality in previous shows. And since he has rain on this little baby of his, it's quite interesting how he's playing it out. Obviously both religions have credence of power. The Colonial gods have shown them selves in some things, and the One True God is showing itself in others. A war of the gods I say?

Roslin hair was utterly creepy. She does bear a striking resemblance to Cain.

Baltars religion is gaining a stronghold, it's building and moving and his ability to rise up against the guards from nothing, by the help of angels, will greatly help his situation. I'm really curious though if he'll every truly adopt these believes and really start believing himself. I mean, we know he believes in the one true god, and is follow Internal-Sixes advice and such, but he's just going along for the ride out of self-preservation. I wonder if he'll really become the messianic prophet of god, as in, he really believes it himself and sheds some of his previous ways. Just a curious thought.

I have to say that season 4 is turning out some of the best writing for BSG. It's non-stop. And they are going gun-hoe for doing the best damn job they can. Everyone is at the top of their game and the writing is superb. I highly doubt we'll get one stand alone or one crappy "Black Market" or something this season.

A man can hope.


Oh, and the scenes between Tigh and Six were chilling. I almost felt a tear also.

[timbo]

Baltar as Jesus is one interesting storyline.

But I've mentioned RDM's dance with religious spirituality in previous shows. And since he has rain on this little baby of his, it's quite interesting how he's playing it out. Obviously both religions have credence of power. The Colonial gods have shown them selves in some things, and the One True God is showing itself in others. A war of the gods I say?

Roslin hair was utterly creepy. She does bear a striking resemblance to Cain.

Baltars religion is gaining a stronghold, it's building and moving and his ability to rise up against the guards from nothing, by the help of angels, will greatly help his situation. I'm really curious though if he'll every truly adopt these believes and really start believing himself. I mean, we know he believes in the one true god, and is follow Internal-Sixes advice and such, but he's just going along for the ride out of self-preservation. I wonder if he'll really become the messianic prophet of god, as in, he really believes it himself and sheds some of his previous ways. Just a curious thought.

I have to say that season 4 is turning out some of the best writing for BSG. It's non-stop. And they are going gun-hoe for doing the best damn job they can. Everyone is at the top of their game and the writing is superb. I highly doubt we'll get one stand alone or one crappy "Black Market" or something this season.

A man can hope.


Oh, and the scenes between Tigh and Six were chilling. I almost felt a tear also.




What do you mean by dance and rain? Really, I want to know what you mean in the first paragraph of your post.

I agree with you that the writing is great, but I disagree about Baltar only thinking of self preservation. What is happening to him is real. He has gone through so much that he is losing his sense of self. I think the puppet thing was more about him being directed by god, rather than another mystery cylon moment. From the beginning he has been led, in one way or another, through a series of situations, traumas and trials. In the beginning he failed miserably, but little by little the outer layers have been stripped away until he is finally beginning to feel the divine spark in himself. I think it has been brilliantly written and played. His spiritual awakening as an individual is the template for us all. Like he said, we just have to look.

[Dzonatas]

Poor Nicky baby being left alone while papa goes to the bar.

[Dzonatas]

I still think Virtual Six is not virtual.

[Osprey]

nicky is gonna be REALLY lucky if he makes it to adulthood, daddy's drinking is merely one of his problems ...
:-)

[Jonathan]

This was, for me, the worst episode of the season to date. I found several aspects of it to be forcing a square peg in a round hole.

"Must have strife in fleet, how do we do this, force Baltar to do what people already expect and make it awkward. Spend 3 minutes on Cally's death to avoid point of conflict in fandom. Insert lots of shouting and disagreements between the President and Quorum. Toss some extra violence into the mix to spice up the flavor."

It was predictable, hard to watch, and left me wondering why I wasted space on my DVR and time from my life to watch. The scenes with the President and the Quorum were especially troubling as if the writers decided to take an inept President from America, put them into the tv show, and have people react how the writers think we should react to President Bush. "This didn't happen in real life so let's make it happen in the show. Yeah that'll show them."

There were only two main sections of the show I enjoyed. The realization of Six that Saul is a skinjob and the grief of the Chief. Those were interesting segments.

[raginggaijin]

Oh, and the scenes between Tigh and Six were chilling. I almost felt a tear also.

Alright! Redemption!

Thanks for the welcome! As usual, the forum base is top-notch!

[raginggaijin]

nicky is gonna be REALLY lucky if he makes it to adulthood, daddy's drinking is merely one of his problems ...
:-)

I get the feeling Galen wants to snap his neck.

After his tirade about Cally... Cylon-Darwinism?

[Osprey]

perhaps -- not sure if cylons truly eat their young but who knows ...

[Shane]

nicky is gonna be REALLY lucky if he makes it to adulthood, daddy's drinking is merely one of his problems ...
:-)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[raginggaijin]

perhaps -- not sure if cylons truly eat their young but who knows ...

One can only hope!

[Jonathan]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


I'm waiting for the kid to be killed. The way I see it, either he will be the start of a new generation mixing Cylon and Human (what is humanity, what is real, etc) or he'll end up dying.

Whether we see either of those, explicitly, before the series ends or not is hard to say. But, the kid is clearly the face representing all the other cross-bred offspring.

[afleaah]

you guys...wheres hera?
in human-cylon daycare?

and...
adama never read out the book cuz he didnt want it to end
it really got me thinkin that i shouldnt watch the last eps
so that the show 4 me will never end...

[ShadowEnigma]

Roslin hair was utterly creepy. She does bear a striking resemblance to Cain.

Sweet someone else thought that too! When I was re-watching it earlier I thought that too.

I still think Virtual Six is not virtual.

Really? Explain this more, I'm curious as to your reasoning.

adama never read out the book cuz he didnt want it to end
it really got me thinkin that i shouldnt watch the last eps
so that the show 4 me will never end...

Good Idea :D

[james968]

When something reaches Escape Velocity it has enough speed to break out of a circular (going nowhere) Orbit and begins actually traveling somewhere.

The Chief/Specialist Tyrol: He is at his lowest point. (Some scene's from next week's preview show him a little lower, but basically he is there). He will/is undergoing his moment of crisis.

Col Tigh: He has made major shift. He has trusted the cylon Six, and he has (supposedly) absolved his guilt over Ellen.

Baltar: (IMHO) He has lost much of his arrogance. Compare his command in the cell "Personally I would have loved to see the admiral squirm", with his disgust when H6 tells him how great he will be for fighting the god. (The previous Baltar would have just gloated).

Roslyn: He see that she has come to her decision about death and accepted it. (This may have happened before, but this is when it is introduced to us). She is ready to slip the surely bonds of mortality and touch the face of god(s).

Other Minor things:

Mr Adama: Now is (from the perspective of the Colonials), the Opposition. I get the impression that he is the first member of the Quorum to actually/successfully Challenger her.

[1Nivek1]

Oy, while I'd like to quote everyones impressions, it's just too bloody difficult.

Let me just start by defending my boy Baltar....he's NOT Jesus. He's a tool...he's being used. Baltar's not going to end up rosy at the end of this one.

Chief is doing what chief is good at --> being a melodramatic idiot who's going to do something stupid (like exchange Cylon fluid with Tory ?:lol:)

Adama's book was indeed a play on the story itself (lost at sea!), it was fun for the writers, but boring to watch...

I think the only "truely" thing that happened this episode, was setting up Lee as an idealist. Roslin's comment of he "thinks bad things dont exist", and "i'd so want to believe him" coupled with Adama's "he's doing what he thinks is right", etc.; is exactly why Lee is going to get the anvil from the 4th story roof bigtime.

The episode was doldrums, but you got to have that. Else, it'd be 24 without Jack Bauer :D

[buerger23]

It was a good all-round episode but nothing happened at all in this episode. It was more of in my opinion just a build-up to next week's episode and to the rest of the season.


I don't know if any of you noticed but how did nobody notice how Baltar was picked up by HSix. His following would have just called it an act of God but what would it have looked like to Lee and the Marines?


I don't know about you guys but I laughed my head off when Baltar was getting pistol whipped by that Marine and he just kept getting up and Six kept telling him he couldn't get hurt. Even if HSix is in Baltar's head how did she pick him up??

[Dzonatas]

I still can see the head/virtual versions as IL-series or 'beings of light'. Watch TOS Experiment in Terra. What Kara saw right before she plummeted into the storm/wormhole surely was a being of light.

[OldManRivers]

My thing is that they are angels of god. The Lords of Kobol. And Cylons from the previous cycle...

"All of this has happened before, and it will happen again."


I honestly thought a lot happened in this episode. A lot of character stuff, which to me, still counts as "something".



I also wanted to add this:

"The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable."



I think Tight found someone...haha

[Dzonatas]

Well... when people say they 'terraform' a planet, they usually tend to point to Star Trek, which showed a single missile capable of remodeling an entire planet. There, the misconception that terraforming may involve what we are now doing to Earth. Instead of the couple of hours that Star Trek presents, we have several thousands years of humans being introduced to a planet, which undergoes their development cycles to build upon the planet.

When I hear/see that expression "All of this happened before..." that slower terraforming process is what I imagine.

More planets to terraform... more it will happen again.

[matronik]

This episode was very intense. I hope they use Racetrack more.

[pagad]

I love Roslin's wig. She looks like Admiral Cain! I wonder if they're trying to tell us something...

Also, I was 100% sure Racetrack wasn't going to survive that. The Raptor didn't look nearly as damaged as the crash would suggest. I guess Colonial engineering is damn good.

[Starstruck]

Interesting epidsode. I thought it was better than He That Believeth in Me, but not as good the last two. To me it was very emotionally compelling, but the structure was all off. A snippet of Starbuck and Anders at the end? Why even bother with that?

However, I thought the scenes with Baltar and the crowd, Tigh and Six, and Tyrol and Adama were all great, amazingly well acted and powerful. It would appear that Head Six can really pick his ass up and flail him about. What does THAT mean?

As for Tyrol's real feelings about Cally...most of us who have been married know what it is to love someone deeply but to still have deep-seated things that irritate us about them that are too mean and petty to ever say. I think he was so emotionally distraught, he came out with it. He may also have wanted, consciously or subconsciously, to get himself thrown off the deck because he's afraid he didn't change that part on purpose (just like Boomer.) We also now know that Boomer was his true love and that he turned to Cally, who I believe he also loved but differently, when he was confused and hurting. I feel sorry for all three of that triangle.

Something that bugged me about this episode, is how did anyone even know Cally was dead? Tory obviously didn't tell about her role in it, so all Tyrol knew was that she thought he was having an affair, knocked him cold with something, and then disappeared. How did they know she got airlocked? Would it set off an alarm or something? Was she seen?

I think Caprica Six probably knows Tight is a cylon, but I'm not sure.

So many new things to think about, but nothing yet revealed really.

[Dzonatas]

I think Caprica will found out like real soon now, but she is programmed to ignore it a bit. When she finds out what Cavil did, however, oh is she going to explode and 'go human' on them.

[matronik]

Isn't it strange that the Final 4 have someone or some event that is "guiding" or testing them:

Tight - Caprica Six and the regret of having killed Helen
Tori - Baltar
Chief - The Death of his wife
Sam - Kara's return

[buerger23]

"The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable."



I think Tight found someone...haha

This could actually work! Great theory!

It's just really hard to believe Tigh and Six getting together. :lol: :lol:

[ShadowEnigma]

Also, I was 100% sure Racetrack wasn't going to survive that. The Raptor didn't look nearly as damaged as the crash would suggest. I guess Colonial engineering is damn good.

Oh there was no way Racetrack would have died. Shane would kill all of the writers on the show. :P

I think Caprica will found out like real soon now, but she is programmed to ignore it a bit. When she finds out what Cavil did, however, oh is she going to explode and 'go human' on them.

That will be interesting to see what happens. Do you think part of the breakdown is in fact because C-Six isn't there anymore to hold everyone together?

Isn't it strange that the Final 4 have someone or some event that is "guiding" or testing them:

Tight - Caprica Six and the regret of having killed Helen
Tori - Baltar
Chief - The Death of his wife
Sam - Kara's return

Interesting. I wonder if that will play in.

[buerger23]

I love Roslin's wig. She looks like Admiral Cain! I wonder if they're trying to tell us something...

Also, I was 100% sure Racetrack wasn't going to survive that. The Raptor didn't look nearly as damaged as the crash would suggest. I guess Colonial engineering is damn good.

The more I think about the wig the more it looks like Cain. The writers have to be telling us something.

Could they be telling us Roslin is turning into a Cainistic type leader?

I'm surprised as well that Racetrack survived. It looked like the entire cockpit of the Raptor was crushed. I'm happy that they didn't kill her off though!

[ShadowEnigma]

Roslin definitely is starting to get more upity about being president. Her speech about needing to put down Baltar and him being a special case was interesting. I think she'll continue this trend, we could definitely see her turning into more Cain like. Cain was pretty sweet though. Can't see Roslin doing it however.

[Dzonatas]

That will be interesting to see what happens. Do you think part of the breakdown is in fact because C-Six isn't there anymore to hold everyone together?

Baltar hasn't been able to save her, so she shows distress. I hate to call Thigh a rebound. She might use Thigh to get out and get back to Baltar.

Why wouldn't Thigh trust Caprica now? Thigh knows they are the same. =)

[buerger23]

Why wouldn't Thigh trust Caprica now? Thigh knows they are the same. =)

I don't ever remember Tigh being a part of someone's leg? :lol:

I totally agree with you. I think Tigh might start trusting Caprica now that he think's they are the same. Which they probably aren't.

Does anyone think Caprica knows that TIgh's a Cylon because he keeps coming to see her?

[northtwilight]

Shane: You're going to want to get your hands on the show Godiva's, it has Leah Cairns in it a lot. Got cancelled last year when CityTV decided against renewing for a third season.

Awesome episode, it was the first one this season that really had me scratching my head.

[Shane]

Oh there was no way Racetrack would have died. Shane would kill all of the writers on the show. :P

Shane: You're going to want to get your hands on the show Godiva's, it has Leah Cairns in it a lot. Got cancelled last year when CityTV decided against renewing for a third season.

Note to all.... Racetrack is mine. If the writers killed them all, I do what JDS did.. start a memorial.

Umm.. That gives me an idea!

[OldManRivers]

I thought they died from the Raptor crash. I was expecting Cally's death to be the first in a long line series of death spanning from now until the series finale. Either way, I want more deaths!!!!

But not Racetrack! Her, I like, very much!


The Roslin hair is a symbolic note of her quest to concentrate power and works great as a "visual counterpoint to her increasing ruthlessness as she confronts her impending death." The part with Adama reading to her is become bitterly beautiful. It made me want someone to read to me. I will remember this when/if I ever end up in the hospital. I love reading, but if I couldn't, I would very much appreciate and love it if someone read to me. Adama going off without reading the books felt as though he was reading his own feelings. This season has done that a few times now, and it was quite sad with this in how their relationship is coming to an end.

This mention of "Mithraism" was a neat connection to Rome and Earth history. We've encountered some Roman parallels with our-earth.

This thing with Internal-Six comes as a shock to many people. But it is possible that she's taken corporeal form before in a way that can control things. Did we ever find out what happened to Shelly Godfrey? And why would the Cylons help Baltar at that point in the series when he does meet up with them, no one gives a damn about him. She is the angel of god.

[aylinn]

When Raptor crashed I thought "C'mon, not Racetrack" but she's still alive. I really enjoyed this episode. The Tigh-Caprica Six relation... interesting.
But what suprised me was the Head Baltar is becoming more and more real in a way. Stil no one can see her but the way Baltar looked when she grabbed him. Everyone was surprised. And then when she looked at Tory.
As for Roslin, as mentioned in some other post, she's turning a bit into Cain. She wants to get what she thinks is the best for everyone by any means necessary. Not always has to be something good.
What I missed is some Cylon-human battle. Hope in the next episode there willbe some fights.

[Faustivation]

In regards to Chief's feelings for Cally, wasn't one of the requirements to have a hybrid baby LOVE? By this reasoning, Chief had to love Cally at some point. However, at this point, perhaps Chief no longer loves Cally, or like others have said he still loves Cally but is (subconsciously?) sabatoging his subconscious cylon sabatoginess.

Also, I think Roslin is just trying to protect everyone from very poor decisions that the Quorum seems to be wanting to make. Yeah democracy is great, but if the voters are idiots, there are going to be idiotic decisions being made. Besides, in most cases I believe that the short term solutions trump long term solutions in politics due to most politicians not wanting to commit political suicide (i used to live in New Orleans so I know). However if they knew the Quorum was being dissolved at the end of the season, then by all means chuck the long term decisions.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Well, we have to consider that the Final Five are "fundamentally different". We also need to take into consideration that Tyrol and Valerii did really love each other, yet they never had a kid.

So maybe there's something more to Nicholas? Who knows.

But, the Chief did settle for "second best" out of what was available. So he did love Cally, at the time they conceived the child anyway. I always thought he buried himself into his work (with both the New Caprican resistance and back on the Bucket) to stay away from her myself, at least subconsciously.

Also, Roslin does seem to be taking a few pages from Cain's playbook... Making executive decisions and the like that affect everyone. Now that Roslin's really going to die, you'll see her more fatalistic, and I think Adama touched a nerve with her when he made the crack about her possibly not being the "dying leader" from the scriptures.

[pagad]

That will be interesting to see what happens. Do you think part of the breakdown is in fact because C-Six isn't there anymore to hold everyone together?

I think it's because previously any voting "big issues" would have been more easily resolved because seven isn't an even number.

They made a big mistake in boxing D'Anna, I reckon.

It looks like Natalie is going to be a major recurring character, actually, so the civil war really is going to kick off and Cavil won't be totally successful with his ambush.

I have to say, what were they thinking, trusting the most devious and duplitious and outright ruthless model of the lot?

[1Nivek1]

But, the Chief did settle for "second best" out of what was available. So he did love Cally, at the time they conceived the child anyway.


Just another layer of guilt to put on the wedding cake of Tyrol & Insanity. I do think there is sort of a point in having him and Valeri both being antithesis to what they were in S1 out of anger/guilt.


Also, Roslin does seem to be taking a few pages from Cain's playbook... Making executive decisions and the like that affect everyone. Now that Roslin's really going to die, you'll see her more fatalistic, and I think Adama touched a nerve with her when he made the crack about her possibly not being the "dying leader" from the scriptures.Boy, I have the feeling it's going to go from more than just fatalistic, but move more into the area of angry and reckless.

[Blackbird]

I wonder if I was the only one who saw this scene the way I did...

It's the whole business with Adama and his favorite book, to which he's never been able to bring himself to read the ending of. In particular, his line at episode's end about how "we're getting close to the part I've never read."

Now, the reason that line stands out for me is because the show itself is, of course, getting close to its own end; all the pieces on the board are being moved into endgame positions. For many people, myself included, the original Galactica series was a favorite story we've "read" many times over the years - but we've never really known how it all ended, thanks to Mr. Neilsen. (I won't mention G80 if you won't.) Now that this particular Galactica's story is about to end, we will in all likelihood finally have some semblance of closure, some idea of where the survivors of humanity fit into the mythology and history of our own world (which was always one of the things that facinated me the most about the old show).

I'm not saying there's any significant meaning to Adama's line beyond a subtle acknowledgment that we are coming into the home stretch for the show and its story, but it does have a special sort of resonance with me for these reasons. Even if that wasn't intentional, I thought it was a neat interpretation.
[snip]

Hey, I'm a nugget. Been watching the show, reading the forum, love both, yadda yadda.

I think the story from Adama is very important. It's a bit out there, but follow me.

We keep on hearing, from the hybrid, about how this has all happened before and all will happen again.

Adama's reading of the story is that. He keeps on reading the same parts, but he never gets to the end. Also, in a way, as you mention, a metaphor for the Original BSG.

But now, Adama's reading the end of the book. Following this metaphor then, not only will we be learning how this cycle that happens "again and again and again" functions, but we might be breaking out of the cycle to something new.

I think we will be breaking out of the cycle, because it's going to be terribly disappointing television (as I'm sure, the creators know), for it to conclude with, "Here's the end, and it will go on in the cycle for eternity."

***

I think that part is where the metaphor is pretty clear. Now to go out there out a bit: what's the new end? What's the cycle? Has humanity had a holocaust against them before, resettled, and had it happen again? Is there going to be some sort of homage to the original series?

[OldManRivers]

Hey, what did people think of Eddie Olmos's directoral debut (it was his debut right?). I mean, debut for BSG.

[Starstruck]

Hey, I'm a nugget. Been watching the show, reading the forum, love both, yadda yadda.

I think the story from Adama is very important. It's a bit out there, but follow me.

We keep on hearing, from the hybrid, about how this has all happened before and all will happen again.

Adama's reading of the story is that. He keeps on reading the same parts, but he never gets to the end. Also, in a way, as you mention, a metaphor for the Original BSG.

But now, Adama's reading the end of the book. Following this metaphor then, not only will we be learning how this cycle that happens "again and again and again" functions, but we might be breaking out of the cycle to something new.

I think we will be breaking out of the cycle, because it's going to be terribly disappointing television (as I'm sure, the creators know), for it to conclude with, "Here's the end, and it will go on in the cycle for eternity."

***

I think that part is where the metaphor is pretty clear. Now to go out there out a bit: what's the new end? What's the cycle? Has humanity had a holocaust against them before, resettled, and had it happen again? Is there going to be some sort of homage to the original series?

You're reading it very much as I am. I think what has repeated is that humanity has gone through a holocaust before...whether that holocaust involved AI before, I'm not so sure. It does seem, though, that something is different this time.

However, the prophesies do keep saying it has happened before and it will happen again. I don't know how they'll stay true to that and also give the story a fulfilling end.

[Proxenus]

u don't think bill, lee, and others are putting 2 and 2 together?

sheesh, gaius only gets 60 minutes to split the fleet? who knew there was a shot clock?

i know it was "proclaimed" laura would not see earth, but such things can be "overruled"

/agreeing to disagree i suppose

Sorry for the late response.

Here are a list of problems I saw with this episode.

1. No questioning why or how Cally "committed suicide." No one even bothered to ask how it all happened. Presumably, people saw her running to the hanger deck. No one asks any questions at all?

2. Baltar's "rising" popularity. Okay, let me get this straight. Less than a month ago, he was the most hated man in the fleet. Now, he's some sort of new leader? Excuse me?

3. The attack on Baltar by the marine. Let me understand this. When Baltar goes into a temple and desecrates it, he's hardly touched. He is merely arrested, placed in cuffs and put into detention. But, suddenly, when Baltar is merely walking up to him, a marine feels the need to put a beat down on him? Are you kidding me?

4. Colonel Tigh's crisis of conscious. Nearly a year after Colonel Tigh had to kill his wife, he suddenly goes through a crisis of conscious? What the hell was he doing for the past year? Given the character of Colonel Tigh, I seriously doubt that he'd be going through that kind of a problem a year later.

5. Lee Adama goes to Washington (or Colonial One or whatever). After two years of being in the inner circle of leadership and seeing the sordid underbelly of what Admiral Adama and President Roslin have to do to keep the fleet going, he's now an idealist and wants everything to be fair and above board? Is this the same guy who allowed a black market to continue because it was better than the alternative? Or the guy who shot down a passenger ship because he thought it had Cylons on it? Or the guy advocated destroying the entire Cylon race? I'd expect this out of Karl Agathon because he always does the right thing, but Lee has always had a pragmatic side to him.

And don't get me started on the whole Demtrius thing. Actually, I'll get started. Let me understand this correctly. Because Admiral Adama wants to believe his favorite pilot, he sends her off on a mission to find Earth with his best ECO pilot (Sharon Agathon), one of his best officers (Karl Agathon), his Operation Officer (Felix Gaeta), and at least three other viper pilots. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Admiral Adama's second best pilot decides he's tired of being a pilot and gets into government.

/sigh

[Ausir]

2. Baltar is still the most hated man in the fleet - none of the other ships want him.

3. This marine might be one of the above Baltar haters. Maybe a Son of Ares?

Demetrius: 4 more Viper pilots, even: Anders, Seelix, Gonzo and the Tattooed Pilot.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

1. No questioning why or how Cally "committed suicide." No one even bothered to ask how it all happened. Presumably, people saw her running to the hanger deck. No one asks any questions at all?

People know that Cally and Tyrol have fought in the past. Further, she was on various medications, such as anti-depressants, had problems sleeping, etc. She was in the state of mind to commit suicide.

Plus you have the public altercation where Cally confronts Tyrol and Tory Foster in Joe's Bar. Enough there to say, "ok, yeah, she offed herself because of her failing relationship".

Also, you have to consider that the officers' attention is focused on the whole Sons of Ares / religious war issue.


2. Baltar's "rising" popularity. Okay, let me get this straight. Less than a month ago, he was the most hated man in the fleet. Now, he's some sort of new leader? Excuse me?

Baltar was popular even before his trial. Remember "Dirty Hands" where people were reading his book and quoting from it.

Secondly, he is still a hated man in the Fleet. He was attacked by Charlie Connor and friend in an officer's head.

3. The attack on Baltar by the marine. Let me understand this. When Baltar goes into a temple and desecrates it, he's hardly touched. He is merely arrested, placed in cuffs and put into detention. But, suddenly, when Baltar is merely walking up to him, a marine feels the need to put a beat down on him? Are you kidding me?

Actually, he is rather forcibly tackled at the altar during his desecration.

Later, you get the sense that the Marine who beats him bloody is doing so because he actually doesn't like the guy. Not all marines are the same, you know.

4. Colonel Tigh's crisis of conscious. Nearly a year after Colonel Tigh had to kill his wife, he suddenly goes through a crisis of conscious? What the hell was he doing for the past year? Given the character of Colonel Tigh, I seriously doubt that he'd be going through that kind of a problem a year later.

Uhm, you realize that Tigh killed Ellen because she collaborated with the skinjobs, right? Tigh did get over it, as you said, but then he found out he's a Cylon... and now he's realized the reasons for killing his wife need to be questioned. So all this bile and hatred really re-emerges.

And the fact that "Gaius Frakking Baltar" wasn't found guilty really pissed him off as well.


5. Lee Adama goes to Washington (or Colonial One or whatever). After two years of being in the inner circle of leadership and seeing the sordid underbelly of what Admiral Adama and President Roslin have to do to keep the fleet going, he's now an idealist and wants everything to be fair and above board? Is this the same guy who allowed a black market to continue because it was better than the alternative? Or the guy who shot down a passenger ship because he thought it had Cylons on it? Or the guy advocated destroying the entire Cylon race? I'd expect this out of Karl Agathon because he always does the right thing, but Lee has always had a pragmatic side to him.

The Olympic Carrier didn't have Cylons on it, as you say it did. It had a nuke, and it was headed to the Fleet as they were beginning to jump. Further, it had people on board, but no one knows that for sure. (RDM and crew pretty much confirmed that in commentary regarding "33".)

Further, you're forgetting that he's the one who stood up against Adama and Tigh to prevent them from destroying the government. He put a gun to Tigh's head. He was the one who orchestrated Roslin's removal from the ship.

And don't get me started on the whole Demtrius thing. Actually, I'll get started. Let me understand this correctly. Because Admiral Adama wants to believe his favorite pilot, he sends her off on a mission to find Earth with his best ECO pilot (Sharon Agathon), one of his best officers (Karl Agathon), his Operation Officer (Felix Gaeta), and at least three other viper pilots. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Admiral Adama's second best pilot decides he's tired of being a pilot and gets into government.

There are other great pilots in the Fleet. "Hot Dog", etc. Also, we need to consider the fact that Pegasus had her own CAG during the "New Caprica" year, so its not like people didn't have experience. We've just never sen them.

Further, Lee is right.... They are a band of survivors. They have to bend laws. They have to compromise. Laws only work in a society that permits their existence in the first place.

[Proxenus]

People know that Cally and Tyrol have fought in the past. Further, she was on various medications, such as anti-depressants, had problems sleeping, etc. She was in the state of mind to commit suicide.

Plus you have the public altercation where Cally confronts Tyrol and Tory Foster in Joe's Bar. Enough there to say, "ok, yeah, she offed herself because of her failing relationship".

Also, you have to consider that the officers' attention is focused on the whole Sons of Ares / religious war issue.

You still ask questions. Here's the scenario as far as we know. Cally attacks the Chief with the wrench, grabs Nick and runs down to the hanger. I assume Tori will claim that she ran into Cally and somehow get Nick away before Cally "committed suicide." Nonetheless, you ask the question "Tori, why were you in the hanger?"

Admiral Adama regarded Cally as part of his family. He doesn't stop to ask anything?

Baltar was popular even before his trial. Remember "Dirty Hands" where people were reading his book and quoting from it.

Secondly, he is still a hated man in the Fleet. He was attacked by Charlie Connor and friend in an officer's head.

Which I find completely unbelievable. While there are some fanatics who will support a psycho, that's going to be the minority.

This isn't like Hitler in 1923. This is like Hitler in 1945 (except Hitler died).

This is what we're supposed to believe. A guy, who 90% of the population believes is responsible for their experience on New Caprica, writes a few passages and suddenly becomes the voice of the people? Huh?

Actually, he is rather forcibly tackled at the altar during his desecration.

Later, you get the sense that the Marine who beats him bloody is doing so because he actually doesn't like the guy. Not all marines are the same, you know.

My point was that he didn't suffer any serious injury in the first altercation. And I didn't get that sense from the marine at all. He kept telling Baltar to "Please stay down." But, even if the marine didn't like Baltar, his training would have taken over.

I found the entire scenario forced and predictable. I knew from the moment Roslin said that she was going to limit the size of assemblies that some confrontation would occur that makes Baltar look sympathetic would occur.
Uhm, you realize that Tigh killed Ellen because she collaborated with the skinjobs, right? Tigh did get over it, as you said, but then he found out he's a Cylon... and now he's realized the reasons for killing his wife need to be questioned. So all this bile and hatred really re-emerges.

And the fact that "Gaius Frakking Baltar" wasn't found guilty really pissed him off as well.

Uh, yes I know exactly why Colonel Tigh killed Ellen. You realize that Tigh isn't the most introspective guy in the universe? He know what he knows because that's what he knows. He said that nothing changed for them; they were who they were before.

Which leads me to another problem with this whole thing. None of them are questioning why, if they were all Cylons, no other Cylon noticed them on New Caprica. I've heard not one discussion between them about that.

The Olympic Carrier didn't have Cylons on it, as you say it did. It had a nuke, and it was headed to the Fleet as they were beginning to jump. Further, it had people on board, but no one knows that for sure. (RDM and crew pretty much confirmed that in commentary regarding "33".)

Further, you're forgetting that he's the one who stood up against Adama and Tigh to prevent them from destroying the government. He put a gun to Tigh's head. He was the one who orchestrated Roslin's removal from the ship.

Actually, I said he thought there were Cylons on it. He didn't know for sure.

But, my point is that he's not an idealist and for the show to suddenly start portraying him as such is contrary to how his character was portrayed before. He knows that compromises need to occur and has been a willing participant in some of them.

Furthermore, up until this season, he's expressed nothing but disdain for Zarek. Suddenly, he's Zarek's ally? He's got to realize that Zarek is only using him.

There are other great pilots in the Fleet. "Hot Dog", etc. Also, we need to consider the fact that Pegasus had her own CAG during the "New Caprica" year, so its not like people didn't have experience. We've just never sen them.

Further, Lee is right.... They are a band of survivors. They have to bend laws. They have to compromise. Laws only work in a society that permits their existence in the first place.

We don't know how good the other pilots are. We know that Lee Adama is the most experienced officer in the fleet besides Colonel Tigh and Admiral Adama. No one else has been a ship Commander, XO, and CAG. If the Cylons attack, you want to put your best team on the field and that includes Lee Adama. If nothing else, Lee Adama's sense of duty would have prevened him from just leaving.

[Jason1975]

But, my point is that he's not an idealist and for the show to suddenly start portraying him as such is contrary to how his character was portrayed before. He knows that compromises need to occur and has been a willing participant in some of them.


I disagree about Lee not being idealist. He always stood up for the Articles of Colonization and the rights of others.

In the Miniseries, He stood up to his father because the newly appointed President ordered him to stay and help with the rescue of the civilians. I know he was still upset about Zac's death. I do believe that he would have followed Adama's orders, if Roslin did not order him to stay first.

In Bastille Day, Lee stood up to Roslin and Adama about elections in the fleet. Even though Zarek wanted them. Lee believed that elections should be held because the Articles of Colonization said it was time to hold them.

Lee held a gun to Tigh's Head in Kobol's Last Gleaming because he believed his father was doing an illegal military coup.

He joined the defense of Baltar because he believed everyone deserved a fair trail. Even though it was very unpopular thing to do

There is one difference now, He has more confidence in himself since his speech at Baltar's trial. Now, He is not looking for his father approvel and he is out of Adama's shadow.

[james968]

I kinda think after the Chief got smacked up side the head by a crazy women (he didn't know she knew (and still doesn't)). All he knew was she was acting crazy, took the baby, he called security and reported it. Some sort of (Amber) alert went out looking for her and the baby.

(Also since the Circle was using the Jammer Treatment to and Adama found out, maybe they have instituted better monitoring of the Launch tubes being opened for unknown reasons).

[OldManRivers]

I disagree about Lee not being idealist. He always stood up for the Articles of Colonization and the rights of others.

In the Miniseries, He stood up to his father because the newly appointed President ordered him to stay and help with the rescue of the civilians. I know he was still upset about Zac's death. I do believe that he would have followed Adama's orders, if Roslin did not order him to stay first.

In Bastille Day, Lee stood up to Roslin and Adama about elections in the fleet. Even though Zarek wanted them. Lee believed that elections should be held because the Articles of Colonization said it was time to hold them.

Lee held a gun to Tigh's Head in Kobol's Last Gleaming because he believed his father was doing an illegal military coup.

He joined the defense of Baltar because he believed everyone deserved a fair trail. Even though it was very unpopular thing to do

There is one difference now, He has more confidence in himself since his speak at Baltar's trial. Now, He is not looking for his father approvel and he is out of Adama's shadow.

I agree. I always seen Lee as the idealist around these parts. He's had to stand up to things, but for the most part, go along with them. He's this kind of morphogenic character that never really had a place, up until now. It doesn't seem odd to me that he stands for what he believe in, and has the integrity of that. I think he's doing it more now then before. He believes in this society, despite it's faults. He believes that they can do good and in the rights or values of the colonial society.

I also like this move for Lee Adama. It's a good character turn. I'm enjoying it.

[Spencerian]

Hey, what did people think of Eddie Olmos's directoral debut (it was his debut right?). I mean, debut for BSG.

No, this is Eddie's second episode that he's directed. The first was "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down".

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

No, this is Eddie's second episode that he's directed. The first was "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down".

Actually, this was his third episode. He also directed "Taking a Break From All Your Worries".

[Proxenus]

I kinda think after the Chief got smacked up side the head by a crazy women (he didn't know she knew (and still doesn't)). All he knew was she was acting crazy, took the baby, he called security and reported it. Some sort of (Amber) alert went out looking for her and the baby.

(Also since the Circle was using the Jammer Treatment to and Adama found out, maybe they have instituted better monitoring of the Launch tubes being opened for unknown reasons).

I would concur with that assessment, but we have nothing in the television show to indicate an increase in security.

One would think that there would be some indicator that a launch tube was being open and some method of tracking how the tube was opened.

Also, it seems to me that there is a pretty good size design flaw if you can open a launch tube merely by placing a key in a box and pressing a button. Why would you ever want to open a launch tube in that manner?

But, I've seen nothing in the television show to contradict that part of the story.

[ShadowEnigma]

Well, since the chief had the key, I'm going to assume only a few people have that key. Why would you want to open it like that? Probably so someone can go through to do repairs on the track from inside.

[Proxenus]

I disagree about Lee not being idealist. He always stood up for the Articles of Colonization and the rights of others.

In the Miniseries, He stood up to his father because the newly appointed President ordered him to stay and help with the rescue of the civilians. I know he was still upset about Zac's death. I do believe that he would have followed Adama's orders, if Roslin did not order him to stay first.

In Bastille Day, Lee stood up to Roslin and Adama about elections in the fleet. Even though Zarek wanted them. Lee believed that elections should be held because the Articles of Colonization said it was time to hold them.

Lee held a gun to Tigh's Head in Kobol's Last Gleaming because he believed his father was doing an illegal military coup.

He joined the defense of Baltar because he believed everyone deserved a fair trail. Even though it was very unpopular thing to do

There is one difference now, He has more confidence in himself since his speak at Baltar's trial. Now, He is not looking for his father approvel and he is out of Adama's shadow.

I am not saying that Lee Adama is a complete pragmatist. But, he's certainly not an idealist (or at least never was one up to this point). While he has supported some ideal situation, he has also shown a very pragmatic side. Like I said, he advocated killing off the entire Cylon race. He also advocated against rescuing the people on New Caprica. He allowed a black market to continue to operate. Even during the trial, he fought dirty, using Colonel Tigh's alcoholism and President Roslin's use of chamalla extract against them.

The idea that he suddenly has great ideals is forced.

[Proxenus]

Well, since the chief had the key, I'm going to assume only a few people have that key. Why would you want to open it like that? Probably so someone can go through to do repairs on the track from inside.

But, why would you need to open it to repair the track? They can repair it without opening it (see A Day in the Life).

[Murph]

What I think is interesting about Roslin's hair is that it looks like it did in the Opera visions she shared with a Six (Caprica, I think) and an Eight (Athena, was it?). Roslin and Athena were chasing Hera, but Six beat them both to her and walked off with the child.

Remember there was even a scene (a cut scene maybe) where Athena and Roslyn realized they shared a dream vision and argued about whether or not it was possible. They even had a chat with Caprica Six about it.

Could that vision have been foreshadowing something this season? A conflict or competition between Roslin (Human), Six (Cylon), and Athena (Human-sympathetic Cylon)? This three-way stress feels similar to the larger Human, Cylon, Demetrius (with Leoben) triad that is shaping up. If not the Demetrius as the third, then the divided S7 could form the remaining 2 members of the trio.

I think that Roslin's hair has less to do with Cain, despite the fact that she is becoming more authoritative. I think Roslin's change in demeanor comes from the realization that she is running out of time. She just doesn't have the patience for bureaucracy, she just wants to cut the BS and do what think she's is right because she doesn't have time to explain. If you were terminal would you want to have to waste time justifying your actions?

She is also becoming closer to Adm. Adama. He is visiting when she is getting treatments (when she needs someone nearby?), reading to her, carrying her bag, etc. They have always had a great tension, but I was never sure if it was platonic emotional or romantic. I think the writers are developing their relationship here in the last season.

Just some thoughts...sorry for all the parenthetical phrases...I must have set some sort of record.

[Starstruck]

I am not saying that Lee Adama is a complete pragmatist. But, he's certainly not an idealist (or at least never was one up to this point). While he has supported some ideal situation, he has also shown a very pragmatic side. Like I said, he advocated killing off the entire Cylon race. He also advocated against rescuing the people on New Caprica. He allowed a black market to continue to operate. Even during the trial, he fought dirty, using Colonel Tigh's alcoholism and President Roslin's use of chamalla extract against them.

The idea that he suddenly has great ideals is forced.

Idealism is the shaping force behind Lee's character. The only times he has backed away from that idealism were when he was going through a personal ordeal, as if these troubles knocked his moral compass askew.

The first time it was because Starbuck was hung up on some other guy, he had a near death experience and remembered how he hurt his Caprica girlfriend and no longer wanted to live. So he goes off and gets involved with a prostitute, kills a criminal at close range, and allows the black market to continue.

The second time it was after Starbuck married that other guy and ran off to live on New Caprica. He reacted this time by getting involved with a wife, becoming fat and bitter, and nearly losing his sense of purpose.

When Lee is not reeling from being dumped, he's very idealistic.

[Proxenus]

When Lee is not reeling from being dumped, he's very idealistic.

You mean when he's not emo. :devil:

[Starstruck]

You mean when he's not emo. :devil:

Heh, yeah, he's pretty emo sometimes. Honestly, though, I'm glad he has that flaw, as well as the "must prove myself to my father" flaw. Without those he would be annoyingly self-riteous.

To another of your points, I was also bothered by 1) why they knew Cally was dead and 2) why there was no investigation. I'm wondering if Adama demoting the Chief, and the crazy-ass, drunken tirade Chief went on, will lead to that getting investigated.

[buerger23]

Ya, I never thought of that but Adama might just suspect Chief of murdering his wife? Or since Cally hasn't reported for duty did they just count her as MIA?

[james968]

After that outburst in Joe's bar, he (or other's might) think something isn't right about her death.

[ShadowEnigma]

After that outburst in Joe's bar, he (or other's might) think something isn't right about her death.

He has gone through quite a lot. Admiral knows that. If they actually started investigating him because of that out burst I'd be completely surprised. After losing a loved one, a lot of people say a lot of weird and crazy things, it is just part of the coping and getting through the pain.

[1Nivek1]

I'm pretty confident the story they're going with is that after the incident, Tori went after her after she saw her in the hallway to convince her nothing was going on and chased her to the airlock, but was too late. The baby thing is just a detail. Any other course, and there would have been a search. Now, I'm not saying that eventually Tori will be found out...

[Asiriya]

I really like the idea that I read somewhere that Ellen was an elderly (older) six. Wacthign the episode again, I can see the resemblance and think they did a really good job of the transitions. Whether she is or not, not sure, great idea though.
I was also struck by the feeling that Anders thinks Starbuck is a cylon. After last weeks speech about how everything feels empty now, its paved the way for him to think something of the sort. Anotehr thing though; Anders is shown going up to Starbuck just as he says:
If we don't love ourselves, how can we love others?
And when we know what we are, then we can find the truth out about others.
See what they are. The truth about Them.
(quoted by raginggaijin (http://www.battlestarforum.com/member.php?u=697), blame him if its wrong :P. Seriously, cheers for typing that for me, saved me the effort of finding and transcribing it)
Now, I know the speech carries on afterwards to something different, but it really gave me the feeling that Anders has a theory about Starbuck; who knows, perhaps they subconsciously identified each other when they met on Caprica, and that is the reason for her needing to rescue him as she did.
This also ties into what the show seemed to be doing rather a lot as of late; showing us, suggesting something that then appears to change; Tigh's headshot on Adama, Adama speaking about Chief being a cylon, and repeatedly, for me at least, C-Six appearing to realise Tigh is a cylon before it appearing to be something different.
Racetrack's death reminded me of the numerous random deaths tah occur in Catch-22; completely unexpected and all the more effective for it. I don't wish she'd died, I do hope they decide to bring in more shock deaths, as in the first season when there were cylons exploding across the fleet pretty regularly (kinda).

[OldManRivers]

I'm pretty sure season 4 is going to have a lot of Deaths.

[Proxenus]

My biggest concern is that this turns into the last season of ST:V (not STDs :yikes:) where it just seemed that the producers were just going through the motions....

[1Nivek1]

My biggest concern is that this turns into the last season of ST:V (not STDs :yikes:) where it just seemed that the producers were just going through the motions....

I think somewhere I read that they were originally only going to do 3 seasons? I agree S3 (and the whole New Caprica is S2) were mainly filler.

As far as TV goes, I'm totally pro-death:p

[stavrosg]

Racetrack's death reminded me of the numerous random deaths tah occur in Catch-22; completely unexpected and all the more effective for it. I don't wish she'd died, I do hope they decide to bring in more shock deaths, as in the first season when there were cylons exploding across the fleet pretty regularly (kinda).
Racetrack did not die. Both her and Sculls (her ECO) survived the crash.

[james968]

Racetrack did not die. Both her and Sculls (her ECO) survived the crash.

Seeing the crash and the way that Raptor blew up. For the to Survive THEY ARE THE FINAL CYLON. (being facetious, you don't have to explain why this statement is obviously wrong).

[LSOP]

I really like the idea that I read somewhere that Ellen was an elderly (older) six. Wacthign the episode again, I can see the resemblance and think they did a really good job of the transitions. Whether she is or not, not sure, great idea though.


I really think that Ellen was an older six. That would help explain Saul's past, why Ellen and Saul never had any children, how Ellen mysteriously just showed up in the fleet, and why Ellen knowingly or subconciously was willing to help the Cylons on New Caprica. It would mean that the Six models might have been around as long as the Saul models. And that we might see a young Saul model sometime.

Just food for thought.... not sure if I really believe it myself.

[ShadowEnigma]

Could there be an older six? I thought all of the models kept to the same exact age and look minus hair do and such. I don't think Ellen was anything but a crazy alcoholic problem for Tigh who thankfully died. (I don't like Ellen haha)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I find the "Ellen is an older version of a Six" fully absurd for reasons that shouldn't have to be explained...

Least of all the fact that Six wouldn't look as bad as Ellen if she were to age.

[Shadow Rider]

For the Raptor crash, Ron Moore said, "...I did voice concern when I saw the visual effects that this was too spectacular of a crash to have them survive. And they did tone it down, but I have to say, I'm still amazed that anyone made it out alive, much less as in good of a shape as Racetrack and Skulls are," on his podcast about the episode. ^_^

[mariarilke]

I find the "Ellen is an older version of a Six" fully absurd for reasons that shouldn't have to be explained...

Least of all the fact that Six wouldn't look as bad as Ellen if she were to age.

Oh amen to that. Six is waaay too hot to be Ellen. :D