Another Crazy Theory

[Proxenus]

Okay, I'm back with a crazy theory again.

The only reason we think there are twelve Cylons is because the Cylons claim there are only twelve models.

I was thinking....couldn't there be thirteen?

Follow me here.

There is obviously a connection between the number of Colonies, the Lords of Kobal, and the Cylons, right? They're all twelve......except there are actually 13 Colonies. The twelve that stayed (relatively) near Kobol and one crazy group that went to Earth.

Are there also 13 Lords of Kobol? Well, there may be. We know nine of the names of the Twelve Lords of Kobol and we can assume that the other three are named. But, there is "the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken." Is this the Thirteenth Lord of Kobol?

And if there are actually Thirteen Lords of Kobol, then the pattern would follow that there are thirteen humanoid model Cylons.

Like I said, it's just another crazy theory.

[Leoben]

The Cylons say there are 12 models, they are at least aware of the F5 though know nothing else about them. So here's a few question. What purpose would a 13th Cylon serve? What reason would it have to be completely hidden from at least 11/12 models? Do you think they need to go this route to explain something plot wise?

[Proxenus]

The Cylons say there are 12 models, they are at least aware of the F5 though know nothing else about them. So here's a few question. What purpose would a 13th Cylon serve? What reason would it have to be completely hidden from at least 11/12 models? Do you think they need to go this route to explain something plot wise?

I have no idea what purpose a 13th Cylon would serve other than it would match the number of Colonies or Tribes from Kobol. However, what purpose would 12 Cylon Models serve? Obviously, Cylon society doesn't need the Five.

As to why keep the 13th Model hidden, again, I have no clue. But why are the Five hidden from the Seven?

It's all just random speculation on my part. We actually have 13 Colonies, why not 13 Cylon models?

[hotdog]

I like this train of thought, and I think it's getting somewhere, it makes sense that 13 is really the important number , as opposed to 12. But, could the 13th be the creator, and not just another Cylon model with a part to play?

[Dzonatas]

Was there a deleted scene where Number Six called hera #13?

[Proxenus]

I like this train of thought, and I think it's getting somewhere, it makes sense that 13 is really the important number , as opposed to 12. But, could the 13th be the creator, and not just another Cylon model with a part to play?

I just think it's too coincidental that there are twelve colonies, twelve models, and twelve Lords of Kobol.

Since there are actually thirteen colonies, it should follow that there are thirteen models and thirteen Lords.

[hotdog]

Yes, you are definitely right, it makes sense that there should be 13 Cylon Models. I think the 13 model might actually be the creator of the other 12, as it would stand to reason that because the 13th lord and colony were rebellious and different from the other 12.

[james968]

Maybe the 13th Colony/Cylon is the 3rd actor which is responsible for the Heads and other things.

Though if they 13th Colony went the same route as the other 12, could they have developed their own version of what everyone would call a Cylon?

[bazzyb]

Like I said, it's just another crazy theory.

Indeed

[timbo]

Interesting stuff. I had an idea about a human - maybe Adama´s father, being helping the cylons to greater autonomy and even helping with the attack, because he didn´t like the way humanity was heading (this isn´t as dumb as it sounds, we have domestic terrorism here) Now, I am not 100% behind this idea , rather it is something I am stroking, feeding and generally keeping warm like a little hamster, before rereleasing it onto the forum when it is strong enough to survive in the wild. Reconcilliation would be more natural if both we and the cylons have been shown to be capable of great good and great evil.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Number 13 is Hera. (If we must have a "Number 13".)

Listen, the chrome toasters create hybrids, which are an evolutionary stepping stone towards the humanoid Cylons. The only thing the humanoid Cylons lack is the ability to procreate, which leads to another model line... the human-Cylon hybrid babies.

[timbo]

Number 13 is Hera. (If we must have a "Number 13".)

Listen, the chrome toasters create hybrids, which are an evolutionary stepping stone towards the humanoid Cylons. The only thing the humanoid Cylons lack is the ability to procreate, which leads to another model line... the human-Cylon hybrid babies.

Joe, sometimes you seem like a curious fan, the same as the rest of us, BUT sometimes I get the impression you really know what´s going on here. So fess up Joe, do you have a seat at the top table?

[Dzonatas]

Number 13 is Hera. (If we must have a "Number 13".)

Listen, the chrome toasters create hybrids, which are an evolutionary stepping stone towards the humanoid Cylons. The only thing the humanoid Cylons lack is the ability to procreate, which leads to another model line... the human-Cylon hybrid babies.

We would have an episode called: Desposyni

Or, it could be called "Daughters of Cy-Lot" :yikes:

Whatever, but it's crazy enough for me to have closed the story of genesis and the bound cover around it for good.

[timbo]

Or what if the cylons reached Earth first, in prehistory and procreated with cro-magnon man and thus were the missing link, the catalyst for the little understood spurt in human evolution. Imagine the fun the fundamentalists would have with that - not only we are evolved from monkeys, but cylons too. We, the top of the evolutionary ladder would be cylon-monkey-men.

[Ralf_hawkins]

Okay, I'm back with a crazy theory again.

The only reason we think there are twelve Cylons is because the Cylons claim there are only twelve models.

I was thinking....couldn't there be thirteen?



IMO yes. Since BSG makes reference to religion. We can see some parallel with Jesus' apostles. 12 apostles and Jesus makes 13. Even in esoteric culture: 13 beings of light seen by people having had a near death experiences. (I bring this up, because of the transitory state the skin jobs undergo before being resurrected in their new body.) Maybe something in our unconscious mind related to our culture, gives the number 13, a greater receptive response to things that are mysterious and related to the unknown.

[Leoben]

I'll be siding with Joe on this one, as I think he's got the right idea.

As for the purpose of having 12. At least initially the writers (RDM and Co) said that when the Cylons looked at their human creators they only saw 12 different personality types. As a result, each model was designed to represent a facet of humanity.

Of course that could change as we see the final season unfold. However it's just as plausible an explanation as any of the others I've seen.

[1Nivek1]

ISince BSG makes reference to religion. We can see some parallel with Jesus' apostles. 12 apostles and Jesus makes 13. Even in esoteric culture: 13 beings of light seen by people having had a near death experiences.

yeah, 13 is a very signifigant number in myth. I think your elusive 13 may refer to God.

[Xenon242]

yeah, 13 is a very signifigant number in myth. I think your elusive 13 may refer to God.

Or, at the very least, Baltar in the role of a prophet for said god.

[Porkshank6]

Another 13 in religion - Jesus had thirteen disciples, if you count Judas. If RDM draws on Christianity as a parallel (wandering in the wilderness, anyone?), perhaps the 13th Cylon is a traitor or in some way, or has been cast out of the Cylon's 12-types-of-people paradigm.
Another 12 with a missing 13 - the zodiac progression of constellations has a 13th member, Ophiucus (serpent-holder) which is not represented in the 12 traditional astrological signs. If I recall correctly, the reason Ophicus didn't make the cut is because astrology depends on the signs being divided into equal degrees, one for each solar month.

Somewhat relatedly, the absenteeism of the 13th tribe/model/whatever in BSG's sets of 12 need not mean that 13th whatever is real, but rather that it's aspirational... The Cylons see only 12 types of people, but they aspire to capture the essence perfect human (13th). The rag-tag fleet is the 13th tribe making its way to Earth (it's all happened before).

[Proxenus]

Another 13 in religion - Jesus had thirteen disciples, if you count Judas.

Jesus only had 12 disciples: Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter);James, son of Zebedee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James%2C_son_of_Zebedee);John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Apostle); Andrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Andrew); Philip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Apostle); Bartholomew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartholomew_the_Apostle); Matthew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_the_Evangelist); Thomas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle); James, son of Alphaeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James%2C_son_of_Alphaeus); Thaddeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude_the_Apostle); Simon the Cananean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_the_Zealot); and Judas Iscariot. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot)

Judas was replaced as an apostle shortly after Jesus' resurrection by Matthias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Matthias).

[britboyj]

We, the top of the evolutionary ladder would be cylon-monkey-men.

Daggits? :p

[Porkshank6]

Proxenus - I should have been more specific; I meant 13 total. 12 maximum at any one time. I should have said Apostles to be more specific. I think the parallel stands, however.

[Proxenus]

Proxenus - I should have been more specific; I meant 13 total. 12 maximum at any one time. I should have said Apostles to be more specific. I think the parallel stands, however.

Maybe. Using your theory, one of the original 12 would have to be a traitor and die (Three?) and then be replaced.

I am more in a favor of the 13th being the creator or messiah.

[Ertai]

Number 13 is Hera. (If we must have a "Number 13".)

Listen, the chrome toasters create hybrids, which are an evolutionary stepping stone towards the humanoid Cylons. The only thing the humanoid Cylons lack is the ability to procreate, which leads to another model line... the human-Cylon hybrid babies.

O no, I disagree. If Hera is number 13, then there's also nr 14 - Nick Tyrol.
But, if Helo is cylon, then Hera is eventualy full cylon and can be refered as Nr. 13.

Mayby It's to obvious, but humanoid cylons were created before true, chrome toasters (Saul Tigh it's first cylon war prooven veteran - and he isn't first cylon. He is an least seventh (9 or 10 i sepose)) - so perhaps they shouldn't be even called Cylons.

[ShadowEnigma]

Mayby It's to obvious, but humanoid cylons were created before true, chrome toasters (Saul Tigh it's first cylon war prooven veteran - and he isn't first cylon. He is an least seventh (9 or 10 i sepose)) - so perhaps they shouldn't be even called Cylons.

I don't think so. The FF are different. We can't assume anything about the FF apply to the SS. There is also no proof yet that the numbers are in order of when they were created. I'm not convinced Tigh and co. are anything like the SS. There are definitely fundamental differences between the FF and SS in how they were created.

[Ertai]

I don't think so. The FF are different. We can't assume anything about the FF apply to the SS. There is also no proof yet that the numbers are in order of when they were created. I'm not convinced Tigh and co. are anything like the SS. There are definitely fundamental differences between the FF and SS in how they were created.
Yes, but SS know something about FF. If FF would be created earlier (let say they were created ages ago by 13'th tribe), then how do SS knows anything about them? And why there's no Number 7?

What if all the human "cylons" (as theye're called now) were created by 13th tribe, sended up to find 12 colonies, and after that they programed goal was to find a way back to Earth (as the Earth is older than Kobol). Now they are manipulating and using cylons to get there.
There's lot of inconsequence in these teory (why the human models do not know the way to Earth?) but as for me it is possible that it is the core of entire complicated story.

[5th Cylon]

IMO yes. Since BSG makes reference to religion. We can see some parallel with Jesus' apostles. 12 apostles and Jesus makes 13. Even in esoteric culture: 13 beings of light seen by people having had a near death experiences. (I bring this up, because of the transitory state the skin jobs undergo before being resurrected in their new body.) Maybe something in our unconscious mind related to our culture, gives the number 13, a greater receptive response to things that are mysterious and related to the unknown.

I actually was going to post the same thing, if you look at alot of religions including Christianity, the idea of 1 god and 12 helpers is previlant(goes back to basic sun worship)

[Porkshank6]

Ah, the parallel I pose is absenteeism more than the actual Judas story ending in suicide. I don't think RDM will pull a deus ex machina savior-type character out of a hat; to do so would cheapen the moral struggles animating the show. If he were to do so, it would be in the mode of the Last Temptation of Christ rather than Sunday school
absolute grace. There won't be some savior who says "Congratulations! You're right and your tough choices completely justified. Let me take your measurements so I can get you the right size halo, wings and harp!" There will be ambiguities.

[Porkshank6]

Oh, sorry, I also meant to posit another crazy theory: the 12 colonies are the progeny of an earlier hybridization-type program. The lords of Kobol were Cylon-like, but like in the show, found that the 12 archetypes didn't really encompass all possibilities of human (?) character - there were variations within each model. For example, Boomer casts her vote with the Cavils, Athena loves Helo and Caprica Six chooses to travel with the fleet. If the 13th tribe are "real" humans, then the Colonials are hybrids whose essential Cylon nature has been diluted through the generations.
This theory allows the Final Five to perhaps be bred from Colonial humanity, and still be Cylons - in them their Cylon heritage bred true.

[timbo]

I like these ideas. Dilluted cylon nature and ambiguities. These concepts allow me to look beyond the superficial stuff. In the end I hope the enemy will be "evil" itself, whoever is carrying it be they human or cylon, and I hope the objective will be another step toward reconcilliation. Good stuff Porky.

[justadude]

Thirteen has already been covered. The thirteenth Tribe is the one that went to earth. Interestingly enough it can be paralleled in 12 Cylon tribes and one human tribe.

Here is my theory in short form:
Cylon civil war leads to truce between humanity and and one Cylon faction.
Remaining Cylon faction and human/Cylon faction fight above earth.
This conflict and Final Five lead to merging of humanity and Cylon society.
Earth is colonized by Humans and Cylons.
Time passed and the search for earth passes into lore Cylon genes are integrated into humanity.
The inhabitants of earth set out to colonize space again.
12 colonies are established with a 13 tribe colonizing a different planet...

...you know, what Porkshank6 said.

All this has happened before and will happen again.

Unless its more abstract in the sense of oppression, servitude and equality.

[justadude]

Ah, the parallel I pose is absenteeism more than the actual Judas story ending in suicide. I don't think RDM will pull a deus ex machina savior-type character out of a hat; to do so would cheapen the moral struggles animating the show. If he were to do so, it would be in the mode of the Last Temptation of Christ rather than Sunday school
absolute grace. There won't be some savior who says "Congratulations! You're right and your tough choices completely justified. Let me take your measurements so I can get you the right size halo, wings and harp!" There will be ambiguities.


Like Roslin, who is on the good side, but so driven that she is loosing sight of some of her choices. She is totally committed to her legacy at this point. Her threatening of Baltar, her overturned sanctions regarding public assembly are ultimately counterproductive, stoking the flames of dissent.

[Porkshank6]

Thanks for supporting a nugget commenter with crazy ideas. :-)

I think what makes the show great is not that there's some sort of ultimate evil force, but that both Cylons and humans essentially struggle with themselves and their conceptions of morality. What's good and what's evil aren't really clear; each character must choose how to define them.

[pooloftears]

yeah, 13 is a very signifigant number in myth. I think your elusive 13 may refer to God.

The one true god. (The counterpart of the Imperious Leader (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0008085/))