The Ties That Bind - 4/18/08

[buerger23]

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/thumb/f/fd/4x03_-_The_Ties_That_Bind_-_Promo_2.jpg/640px-4x03_-_The_Ties_That_Bind_-_Promo_2.jpg


Hitting Sci-Fi and Space (Canada) Channels on Friday the 18th of April.

[jazz_jeff]

Good episode. We got to see more of the emotions of some of the side characters that we rarely get to hear and see.

[JDS]

What the hell? It's not the 18th yet! Shouldn't this be in spoilers until then?

[ShadowEnigma]

Well, there isn't anything in here technically spoiling anything. Just keep this thread empty of anything until after the episode airs Friday night.

[Shane]

Some do talk about what going to happen or might happen. :)

[JDS]

Some do talk about what going to happen or might happen. :)Yeah I'm tempted to suggest that we should not allow these threads here until 2200 each Friday (or at least 1200 each Friday).

[Shane]

I usuaully post them Thursday Evening since the Stream airs @ 12pm EST. I can always hide the thread and bring it back to life right before the airing starts. But since the Stream will be pretty much all day tomorrow, this is fine to have this here now.

[buerger23]

What the hell? It's not the 18th yet! Shouldn't this be in spoilers until then?

I wouldn't think so there no spoilers here?

[JDS]

The second post isn't a spoiler in that it actually gives any plot points away, but it's not really in the spirit...so long as this post is in this section before the show airs, it needs to not go down the road of revealing the contents of the show, that's all.

[buerger23]

But we could just talk about how good this episode is going be? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ShadowEnigma]

Some of us (like me) really like to stay far away from spoilers and enjoy the show episode by episode. :) So as much as a hint here and there can really bum me out. Not saying anything here is wrong, I'm just pointing out, there are some like me. So just be careful about putting stuff up.

[buerger23]

I can't wait the episode is going to be great. This is all I'm putting since some people would get angry :lol: if I put more. JK JK JK :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Shane]

So.. I am all set to watch the 9am Stream. Anyone else joining me? :)

[buerger23]

I wish I could but I don't get Sci-Fi and I have to go to school.

[ThPrime]

Sci Fi has changed the delivery system. Before you could start the stream anytime within a 15 minute window. Now all streams start promptly at the top of the hour. So be there sharp at 11, 12, 1, 2, 3 or 4 EST on the dot to watch.

[Shane]

Yeah. I was able to log at 8:45am and I havn't left yet. The stream just sits of repeat. :D

[ShadowEnigma]

That's weird to do. Why would they do that?

[JDS]

That's weird to do. Why would they do that?They've been driven mad by too many Stargate reruns...

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Because it's the last hoorah for pre-TV online streaming... So they're going out with a bang, perhaps?

[Leoben]

I will be talking about the episode in this post so *SPOILER* alert just in case

Amazing episode, simply amazing.



I frakkin called it, if it hadn't been for Tory, Cally would have airlocked herself and Nick. Tory seems to be taking her new found identity really well. Though, her motives are increasingly more interesting. Interesting who they drafted up to go with Kara, and how most of them think she's "crazy as a latrine rat".

I'm curious to see what will happen to Natalie and Co. It seems like they wouldn't be able to resurrect as the ship didn't jump with them. However, we wouldn't have developed that character, even a little, if that was all we saw. Boomer's relationship with Cavil grows even more interesting, she's obviously got a soft spot for him, despite their almost complete opposite natures.

Cally dying, well we all kinda expected it. Honestly, she lost my sympathy when she beat Chiefs head in with a wrench. Especially when she brought Nick with her to that launch tube. Also, it may have been for dramatic purposes, but did anyone notice that she went flying when Tory hit her?

[Shane]

@Leoben:

Yes. Troy showing true cylon abilities right there or she doesn't know her own strength. Cally was looking for the key after she couldn't find the baby. I thought it was pure evil and pure good to watch. Tory is a bad and evil cylon. I love it!

[Leoben]

Agreed Shane.

Is there a way I can hide spoilery info like that so I can make additional comments without worrying about ruining it for others?

[ColonialMarine]

Agreed Shane.

Is there a way I can hide spoilery info like that so I can make additional comments without worrying about ruining it for others?

Here's how to do Spoiler Codes.

[spoiler YOUR TEXT HERE /spoiler]

But use a [ ] on both sides of the words "spoiler".

[Leoben]

Thanks Colonial.



I think the whole Tory bit really adds a twist to the whole Final Five thing. She knocked the crap out of Cally, and whether she has heightened strength or not is debatable. However, she sweet talked Cally into letting go of Nick, and then blew her ass out the airlock.

That to me, is something we might see a S7 member pull. While they are still different from the S7, it was nice to see something very...Cylon about her. Obviously not all Cylons are evil, but you get what I mean.

[ThPrime]

That's weird to do. Why would they do that? It's far easier, scalable to serve a single live stream, many more people can watch simultaneously.

[buerger23]

Well it looks good but I'm not watching it till' tonight. I can't wait it's gonna be great

[Leoben]

I can't wait either, you guys all need to watch it so I have people to bounce thoughts off of :D.

[buerger23]

Ya well later on tonight I have a feeling there will be a lot of thought bouncing!;):D:lol:;)

[Hermes]

Spoiler below
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Arrrgggghhhh! They killed off Cally!!!!!!!!! Nooooooo!!!!!!!!!

[Leoben]

Finally, frakkin psycho was gonna airlock herself and her kid. Good for Tory.

[managizzle]

Lovin' the transformation of Tory.

[Jason1975]

I do not want to sound cruel but thats what happens when you are minor character and was not needed anymore for the story.

Did Tory do that to protect the watchtower 4 or she being evil. Maybe she is she protector of the four

[Leoben]

She sweet talked Cally into letting Nick go, so she could knock her ass sideways and airlock her. There is something more to Tory, and I don't think it's in the least bit noble.

[Hermes]

Finally, frakkin psycho was gonna airlock herself and her kid. Good for Tory.Don't get me wrong. It's this kind of cutting edge stuff that I love about Battlestar. You just never know where they were gonna go. I was ready for both to go out the airlock.

But I liked Cally from the mini-series. Bummer.

[Shane]

I think she was protecting the Cylon Hybrid. I don't think Cally had any intension of killing herself. I think she was just going to kill her kid. You can clearly tell she is looking for the keys.

[JDS]

Worst episode ever.

[Jason1975]

I think she was protecting the Cylon Hybrid. I don't think Cally had any intension of killing herself. I think she was just going to kill her kid. You can clearly tell she is looking for the keys.


Thats works too

[Leoben]

I was pretty convinced, prior to last weeks little preview, that she was going to take Nick out with her.

Cally, at least in attitude, is the wrong one if the people in the show plan on surviving the exodus to Earth. As soon as she found out and Galen was in the same room she pretty much took action. Previous feelings, actions, experiences went right out the window with his new....label.

[BklynBruzer]

Frakking hell, I'm almost in tears over here. That episode is in my opinion, the best in the series.

Cally... :(

[EverlastingGaze]

I'm not so sure Tory is evil as such, here actions were just self preserving. It is great to see her revelling in her new Cylon nature, she seems the only one to enjoy to some degree.

I wonder whether saving Nicky was part of Cylon prgoramming or a result of what she went through with Roslin in order to protect Hera?

[Hermes]

Hey JDS. I thought about your avatar when I saw this ep. I suspected you would be disappointed.

Rest in Peace Specialist Cally Tyrol
http://www.caprica-city.de/bilder/actors/nickiclyne.jpg

[ouiouiwewe]

Worst episode ever.
Don't worry, maybe Cally will come back as Tyrol's inner Cally. Or better yet - as the fifth and final Cylon.

[Leoben]

Self preservation is probably the primary factor. It doesn't seem like anyones picked up on how potentially important Nick actually is. Though if anyone has, it'd be Tory.

Saving Nick could have just been "the right thing to do" or perhaps even to keep Galen off her back. The guys gonna put 2 and 2 together, how would he react if she had murdered his son to boot?

[Starstruck]

Frakking hell, I'm almost in tears over here. That episode is in my opinion, the best in the series.

Cally... :(

Ditto.

What was the deal with Starbuck saying the same things about how she feels things anewed as Tori? The obvious answer is she's the final one. I know, it doesn't fit with that stupid Lord's Supper photo. But there's the feelings, the rise from the dead, and who needs redemption now more than her? Not even Baltar.

[Shane]

Hey JDS. I thought about your avatar when I saw this ep. I suspected you would be disappointed.

Rest in Peace Specialist Cally Tyrol
http://www.caprica-city.de/bilder/actors/nickiclyne.jpg
You should see him in IM chat. He's so disappointed. he even voted "Very Bad" in the poll just to throw a wrench in our fun. :D

[Hermes]

Holy Frak. Someone already updated her profile on Wiki 25 minutes after it's showing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cally_Tyrol

[Leoben]

Ditto.

What was the deal with Starbuck saying the same things about how she feels things anewed as Tori? The obvious answer is she's the final one. I know, it doesn't fit with that stupid Lord's Supper photo. But there's the feelings, the rise from the dead, and who needs redemption now more than her? Not even Baltar.

I didn't get a sense she was saying the same things as Tory at all. Starbuck talking about her body being feeling alien, how things don't feel/taste like they should. Tory on the other hand, said she wasn't hating the idea of being a Cylon as it opens up potential new avenues, new experiences.

I suppose one could argue two sides of the same coin. I just felt Tory was describing something far different.

[Hermes]

I seem to recall the Hybrid in Razor saying that Starbuck had "ascended". Maybe this is like the near death experiances people report.

[buerger23]

What's up with Boomer and Cavil? They are obviously in love so that must have been the reason she flipped.

Cylon Fleet split and they decided to resurrect D'anna. Then, as they jumped to the spot where they were about to resurrect D'anna the Cavil fleet turned on the Sixes and did they kill them or is it meant to leave us hanging like that?

And how does Tory land punch like that? It must have to do with her being a Cylon?

[Starstruck]

I didn't get a sense she was saying the same things as Tory at all. Starbuck talking about her body being feeling alien, how things don't feel/taste like they should. Tory on the other hand, said she wasn't hating the idea of being a Cylon as it opens up potential new avenues, new experiences.

I suppose one could argue two sides of the same coin. I just felt Tory was describing something far different.

I'll have to watch again but I think I remember both of them saying something like they feel new, like things feel and taste different. Tory says that part when she's with Baltar. I can't remember if it was in the beginning of this episode or end of the last one, since I rewatched the last one just before this one came on. Starbuck says it post-coitus too, interestingly enough. :)

[Shane]

I'm not so sure Tory is evil as such, here actions were just self preserving. It is great to see her revelling in her new Cylon nature, she seems the only one to enjoy to some degree.

I wonder whether saving Nicky was part of Cylon prgoramming or a result of what she went through with Roslin in order to protect Hera?
She was also afraid that she was going to get told on also. Imaging Cally telling Adama that Tigh, Chief, and Tory were all Cylons. Either Cally would have been in a white mental suit next to C-Six or gone Jack Ruby on all the cylons.

Either way, Cally was doomed. I did like the montage of images showing Cally's existince in this world we love.

[buerger23]

I am going to wait till' Sunday to talk on this page there is to much going on and no order at all!

[EverlastingGaze]

It seems as if Torry and Starbuck are experiencing the same thing but interpreting it in very different ways. Starbuck is feeling alien whereas Tory feels new so to speak.

I don't think Starbuck is the final Cylon though...it seems to easy.

[buerger23]

Boomer and Cavil in love? What's up with that so it's now quite obvious now that cylons can love each other which I find strange?

[Shane]

Holy Frak. Someone already updated her profile on Wiki 25 minutes after it's showing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cally_Tyrol
I had the Cally page locked all day. No way someone could have made that kinda of edit. I locked it because of the streams and I didn't want people getting spoiled. Someone tried updating Chief's page. I had to lock that also.

[Ghost]

does anybody get the idea that Chief was beating Cally? the doc asked if that was the last time he touched her and she nodded. but they have a kid together and it shows flashes of them in bed and his hands are all over her. and with the way the previews for next week looked he wasn't talking too highly of her

[1Nivek1]

Well, I was ready for Cally to die....no surprises there. Thought the whole sequence was a bit predictable.

Think the episode did three things

1)Tried to veer off the direction of the F5 being "non-evil". It should be kept in mind that Tory did what she did out of jealousy (expect her to try to start working over Tyrol). That is, she wasn't "ordered" to do it. In addition, setting up Tryol's voyage into madness (remember he had the dagger in DaVinci photo).

2)Isolated Roslin. Setting up Lee to "initially" be used by Zarek. (My guess is Lee will overcome in the end).

3)Centurions have tasted freedom, expect them to turn on the 6s and co.

extra) Anders and Lee. (The only question is will he confess he's a cylon when he learns there's a missing 5th and thinks it's Kara).

Overall, decent episode. Especially for epidode 3 of a season, as they can sometimes be boring/filler.

[Leoben]

And how does Tory land punch like that? It must have to do with her being a Cylon?

That was my earth shattering uncensored bit in the other thread (about the 4 seeming more Cylon). It may have been more for the sake of the drama in the scene, but I'm thinking it was more. Tory sent her flying, and even though Cally isn't that big, Tory isn't ripped enough to hit her that hard under normal circumstances.

We've seen members of the S7 exhibit great physical strength, perhaps the same is true for the F5.

Also since we didn't see the Basestars actually go up, it's possible they survived, or do. I suppose that'll be revealed next week. Natalie's view points seem to be model wide, perhaps we see one take her place.

[Starstruck]

does anybody get the idea that Chief was beating Cally? the doc asked if that was the last time he touched her and she nodded. but they have a kid together and it shows flashes of them in bed and his hands are all over her. and with the way the previews for next week looked he wasn't talking too highly of her

No way Chief was hitting her. He's not like that, and she wouldn't have allowed that.

I viewed those previews the same way in that he doesn't seem to be speaking well of her. But what is he supposed to think of her now? She hit him with a wrench and tried to kill his baby. I can have empathy for her point of view as an outside observer, but it would be hard to have that kind of insight when you're the one who got hit by a wrench by the woman you thought loved you.

[Leoben]

I don't think Chief was beating Cally. Since after the Doc asks she says "sometimes I wish he would. At least then I know he'd feel something for me."

Seriously though, like Star said, she beat him with a wrench and tried to kill his kid. That'll drive a wedge awfully fast.

[Jason1975]

Did anybody get a good look at the painting that starbuck did above her bunk. I think it is very big clue for the rest of the story. That is what I think in spoiler tags.
beings of light

[EverlastingGaze]

Tory punching Cally was definately some Cylon strength. Perhaps her fully embracing her nature has let her unlock its potential.
Is it all Centurians who have been liberated or just those on Natalies ship?

[Jason1975]

Thats a very good question. That maybe why cavil attacked that basestar

[Ghost]

No way Chief was hitting her. He's not like that, and she wouldn't have allowed that.

I viewed those previews the same way in that he doesn't seem to be speaking well of her. But what is he supposed to think of her now? She hit him with a wrench and tried to kill his baby. I can have empathy for her point of view as an outside observer, but it would be hard to have that kind of insight when you're the one who got hit by a wrench by the woman you thought loved you.


i didn't think he was like that either, but everyone on the show seems to be changing. and the way i look and feel about people are completly changing. and yea i would be pissed if she hit me too but what do you expect? cally was a sweetheart and she found out the man she loved was a cylon, how would you re act. and right before tory back handed her it looked like she was kind of "ok" and ready to talk about the situation. because of athena everyone knows not all cylons are evil

[Leoben]

It seems like it might just be Natalie's ship. All Basestars presumably have Centurions, and I didn't see Cavil worried about things on his own Basestars.

I suppose they could have removed the Centurions from those ships, but it's hard to say for sure yet.

Jason, my interpretation of the painting was exactly what she described to Laura. It was a gas giant, a comet and a trinary star. I'm not sure how that ties into the whole beings of light thing. Unless you are saying the stars...or comet, are somehow them.

[Starstruck]

i didn't think he was like that either, but everyone on the show seems to be changing. and the way i look and feel about people are completly changing. and yea i would be pissed if she hit me too but what do you expect? cally was a sweetheart and she found out the man she loved was a cylon, how would you re act. and right before tory back handed her it looked like she was kind of "ok" and ready to talk about the situation. because of athena everyone knows not all cylons are evil

I think you're misunderstanding me. It's not that I don't understand Cally's motivation. I do. But I understand Chief's too. He doesn't need another motive, like turning out to be an evil wifebeater, to speak ill of her.

And as I said before, there's no way Cally would have been a battered wife. She was sweet sometimes, but she was also fierce.

[EverlastingGaze]

I'm sure eliminating the newly liberated centurians is the prime reason for trying to destroy the ship. The threat would be immense. if it is only Natalies centurians that have been eliminated I expect them to survive because I don't think this story has plated out fully yet. I think the centurians will have quite a larger role in the coming season.

I really hope that isn't were this is heading in regards to Jason's post on Starbucks painting. It would be Deus Ex Machina in an almost literal sense. I'd be dissapointed to say the least. I hope something else is behind Starbucks return.

[Ghost]

I think you're misunderstanding me. It's not that I don't understand Cally's motivation. I do. But I understand Chief's too. He doesn't need another motive, like turning out to be an evil wifebeater, to speak ill of her.

And as I said before, there's no way Cally would have been a battered wife. She was sweet sometimes, but she was also fierce.


no i know what you're saying. and i know that him beating her was a pretty crazy thought but it did cross my mind and there seemed to be some evidence to back it so i thought i would voice my thoughts haha

[1Nivek1]

Did anybody get a good look at the painting that starbuck did above her bunk. I think it is very big clue for the rest of the story


Well, it is worth noting the planet looked like a gas giant like Jupiter (eye of Jupiter?), however, I think there were two suns in the planetary system. Possibly after 2010, when the monolith created another sun :p

[Chiefchess]

To Ghost and Starstruck-
I don't blame you for being confused about the exchange between the good doctor and Cally. Here's the background. Very early in BSG (either season 1 or 2, I can't remember which one), Tyrol had a (daydream?) that he was trying to kill himself. During one of these times Cally tried to snap him out of it and he broke her jaw (he wasn't aware he was doing it). Afterwards, he met with Cavil (disguised as a priest) and wondered aloud if he was a cylon. Cavil assured him he was not and further said "Maybe I know because I am a cylon and I haven't seen you at any of our meetings."
The incident where Tyrol broke Cally's jaw is the incident the doctor and Cally were referring to in this episode.

[buerger23]

Chief, I don't think will even hold a grudge against Tory now! She tried to his sun and Kill him! I defiantly wouldn't care one bit about Cally if I was Chief!

[Starstruck]

To Ghost and Starstruck-
I don't blame you for being confused about the exchange between the good doctor and Cally. Here's the background. Very early in BSG (either season 1 or 2, I can't remember which one), Tyrol had a (daydream?) that he was trying to kill himself. During one of these times Cally tried to snap him out of it and he broke her jaw (he wasn't aware he was doing it). Afterwards, he met with Cavil (disguised as a priest) and wondered aloud if he was a cylon. Cavil assured him he was not and further said "Maybe I know because I am a cylon and I haven't seen you at any of our meetings."
The incident where Tyrol broke Cally's jaw is the incident the doctor and Cally were referring to in this episode.

Yeah, I'm aware. The doc asked if he had hit her _since_ then. Ghost was positing that maybe he did. I said I didn't think so.

[Jason1975]

Look closely on the left of the painting you will see something that is yellow and circular. It takes up the whole left edge. I think that is a the yellow star. All I am going to say is that those white stars are whole lot smaller than that yellow star.

[TheKid965]

Chief, I don't think will even hold a grudge against Tory now! She tried to his sun and Kill him! I defiantly wouldn't care one bit about Cally if I was Chief!

The episode preview for next week certainly suggests that's what the Chief's thinking on the subject might end up being... (I didn't get a good listen, but I'm almost positive I heard him growling about how he wasn't "going to make an angel out of someone who wasn't," or somethnig very much like that. That could refer to Cally, but then again it might even be Tory.)

[Chiefchess]

No doubt Natalie survived. Very likely her and her ship was able to jump away. So now Natalie and her suvivors are adrift in space with no resurrection ship, no unified cylons, no D'Anna to answer their questions about the final five, nothing.
Cavil, beware the woman carrying a grudge. Natalie will now seek out the human fleet (probably by finding Starbuck first) and form an alliance to take him and the others out. There is no other way.
Two quick unrelated thoughts-
1. I saw the preview for next week's episode. Why is Saul allowing himself to be beat up by Caprica Six? Foreplay before one of them makes a move? So much for Saul torturing the prisoners on the brig.
2. I may be looking too much into this, so I am just going to throw out my outragous theory-I think Starbuck may be pregnant. The mood swings are not suspicious (I admit they are not out of character), but she is continually clutching her stomach (she has never done that before). If she is, who is the daddy?

[Ghost]

i think the painting is her viper flying past a planet. if you remember the first time we see her in the episode she's trying to plot it out and it goes to a flash of a planet on the right and a ship flying past it leaving a trail. and to me the painting looks like that. planet on the right with a ship and it's smoke trail. so i think she just painted in image in her head just like she did back in her apartment on caprica

[buerger23]

IT will defiantly be a great episode next week we should find a lot of things out including all the stuff six looking like Ellen and the Raptor Crash looks interesting!

[President Beeblebrox]

Ack, Cally's dead!

Well, since the series is in its last season, everyone's character is coming to an end. I can't say I was surprised by this, since we know how much she hates Cylons.

And now we have another reason for Chief holding a knife and looking at it grimly in the Last Supper photo. I feel so geekish, analyzing that photo for clues regarding the season's revelations; it feels like micro-analyzing "Abbey Road" for clues pointing to Paul McCartney's death...

[Jason1975]

i think the painting is her viper flying past a planet. if you remember the first time we see her in the episode she's trying to plot it out and it goes to a flash of a planet on the right and a ship flying past it leaving a trail. and to me the painting looks like that. planet on the right with a ship and it's smoke trail. so i think she just painted in image in her head just like she did back in her apartment on caprica

You see a flashback of the star system before she did the painting. If you are right, then the painting would be sufficient to depict the star system and the flashback would be a waste of film that could be spent somewhere else.

[EverlastingGaze]

Pregnant Starbuck? That would be interesting I'd never thought of that...definately a possibilty...another Cylon Hybrid or a baby Adama?...I'm not sure if the writers are gonna go there though...it might temporarily disable Starbuck.

[Dwyn2435]

Holy Frak.... What did I just watch?

Cally, the cold bitch.

Tory's steamy hot though. Evil Tory <3 Also super cylon strength!

[Shane]

Did anybody get a good look at the painting that starbuck did above her bunk. I think it is very big clue for the rest of the story. That is what I think in spoiler tags.
beings of light

Well, it is worth noting the planet looked like a gas giant like Jupiter (eye of Jupiter?), however, I think there were two suns in the planetary system. Possibly after 2010, when the monolith created another sun :p

Look closely on the left of the painting you will see something that is yellow and circular. It takes up the whole left edge. I think that is a the yellow star. All I am going to say is that those white stars are whole lot smaller than that yellow star.

i think the painting is her viper flying past a planet. if you remember the first time we see her in the episode she's trying to plot it out and it goes to a flash of a planet on the right and a ship flying past it leaving a trail. and to me the painting looks like that. planet on the right with a ship and it's smoke trail. so i think she just painted in image in her head just like she did back in her apartment on caprica

The planet in her "dream" was clearly Jupiter and a comet passing by in the lower left. Based on the way the planet was spinning, the comet was heading towards the sun.

[EverlastingGaze]

I'm suprised by the hate being thrown at poor Cally "cold bitch" that's harsh man, harsh. Personally I feel a lot of sympathy for Cally. Cylon hubby and half-toaster baby, thats gotta cause some inner turmoil.
I was kinda non plussed at the Tory reveal, she was kinda a background character but her transformation has been great thus far. Plus she has no character history that could cause conflict which means they can take her character wherever they want.

[Dwyn2435]

I'm suprised by the hate being thrown at poor Cally "cold bitch" that's harsh man, harsh.

It was a pun on her being frozen in space. I loved Cally, but Tory's so evil/sexy.

[Ghost]

I'm suprised by the hate being thrown at poor Cally "cold bitch" that's harsh man, harsh. Personally I feel a lot of sympathy for Cally. Cylon hubby and half-toaster baby, thats gotta cause some inner turmoil.

X2
Cally was one of my favorite characters and she is going to be missed :'(

[EverlastingGaze]

yeah i that...i just meant that was extra mean :)..........and I don't think Tory is evil, just self-serving thus far.

[Dwyn2435]

She's still hot when she's mad.

[Jason1975]

On a lighter note. Has Tigh stop drinking? I do not see him drink anymore after he found out he is a cyclon. just observation that might be wrong.

[EverlastingGaze]

Cally has a innocent kind of cuteness...Tory like you say has a more sexy sultry kinda thing especially when shes mad...then again is there actually an ugly woman in the main cast of BSG?

Haven't seen Tigh drink...i dunno though, that's a good question. i guess we'll get a Tigh dealing with being a Cylon episode soon.

[Orpheus_Lupus]

I...Did not like this episode for some reason.

Which is weird, because I was fine with them all until this point. Even some of the most reviled episodes. I wasn't even attached to Cally or anything. There's just something about the way it was handled that hit the wrong nerve in me.

I think the next episode(s) will bring me back around, probably. It's just really odd how it affected me.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

On Kara's mural, was it my eyes playing tricks on me, or did I see something similar to the Ship of Lights (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Ship_of_Lights).

[Jason1975]

On Kara's mural, was it my eyes playing tricks on me, or did I see something similar to the Ship of Lights (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Ship_of_Lights).

I starting to think I was the only one

[cincinnati_mike]

First post! Hello everyone.

I found it interesting to see Orion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_%28constellation%29) so obviously displayed in the starfield as the 6/8 basestars jump into the ambush. Check the left side of the screen immediately after the cut from Lee's debut on the Quorum. The strange thing is that the constellation looks almost exactly the same as it does from (our) Earth, implying the Cylons were in a location near the line between Earth and Orion's belt. If not, the angles of the stars would crete a completely different look from any other perspective. The belt has three stars, but they're hundreds of light years apart, and so wouldn't be considered a star system.

Am I seeing something important, or are the show's creators just dropping us a red herring?

[Jason1975]

First post! Hello everyone.

I found it interesting to see Orion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_%28constellation%29) so obviously displayed in the starfield as the 6/8 basestars jump into the ambush. Check the left side of the screen immediately after the cut from Lee's debut on the Quorum. The strange thing is that the constellation looks almost exactly the same as it does from (our) Earth, implying the Cylons were in a location near the line between Earth and Orion's belt. If not, the angles of the stars would crete a completely different look from any other perspective. The belt has three stars, but they're hundreds of light years apart, and so wouldn't be considered a star system.

Am I seeing something important, or are the show's creators just dropping us a red herring?

Welcome to the forum
I think with these creators the most settle things can be best clue and every thing is done deliberate . So I would not put anything pass them

[Hett]

I don't post here often, but I think it's worth mentioning that Jupiter's rings are very faint and not particularly obvious to the human eye. The gas giant she's been talking about is most likely Saturn.

Keep seeing some folks mentioning Jupiter.

[Jonathan]

Finally, frakkin psycho was gonna airlock herself and her kid. Good for Tory.

I almost wish she had done that. it would have been much better. The devotion to an ideal. The controversy and the discussion of what is human. Is a child made by Cylon and Human in fact human? Is it something else? What is it? Are we only supposed to be outraged at human loss of life? What is life? How is the line further blurred?

We did get a few answers to previous questions in this week's episode. We learned the other skin jobs don't take kindly to Centurions being given free thought and that at least 1 entire Basestar's Centurions had the blinders removed.

I find myself enjoying the Cylon scenes much more than any others. I thought the Starbuck scenes to be boring "oh wow, she's painting...hurrah???" The twist with Adama was nice but seemed overly formulaic. "Must attack top dog to take control of pack by end of series."

I am very interested in the responses to a certain character's death. How the skinjob closest to that character responds is of particular interest. The humanism portrayed by the skinjobs, I believe, is at the heart of the show. What is life? What is real? What is human? How far can we blur the lines until they eventually merge?

The philosophical and religious context to all of this is amazing. The series started off with lots of whiz-bangs and fancy effects. Now it is in stride and finishing with its socio-philo-religious roots.

As an aside, it appears that Starbuck has not told her crew what they are looking for. Perhaps that is an incorrect conjecture on my part. But, assuming it to be true how do the rest of you interpret that? Do the crew know? All or some? Why? We know that at least two of her crew at Cylons. But does she know that? The discourse on the situation of her marriage became interesting to me. Could that signal a deeper realization on the reality of her husband? Does she know an alternate route to Earth or is she a mis-directed herald?

Greek mythology is sprinkled with messengers who seem insane but are correct. Then again, the myths are covered with the reverse.

[britboyj]

The thing I miss most about this new season is the lack of hardcore space combat. Sure the first thing we saw this season was a battle, but nothing anywhere close to Pegasus and Galactica's assault on the Basestars during the attack on the first Resurrection Ship.

I love the human drama, but I want to see some stuff blow up every now and then. With Starbuck off on the Demetrius and Lee on the Quorum (and Kat dead) they've effectively removed 90% of the character interest in the CAP or Vipers in general, till Anders gets back I suppose.

Anyway - did Tory remind anyone else of Head-Six or early Caprica-Valleri when she was talking to Cally? It was very Cylon... a bit scary.

[james968]

Cally seemed to think the chief played her. (She says so much to Tory, and is unaware that the WTF only discovered their nature recently).

I'm sure by now the word that the Cylon's wanted to have babies and the farms and all of the other stuff is known, at least among the military. (Even if they weren't the rumors might be even worse).

So she is probably immediately aware that Niki is a cylon and another one of the Hybrid's and then the Chief comes in and start talking about making another one. Bad timing!

[Asiriya]

@Britboyj - I absolutely disagree with you, Reserreciton ship's combat was completely played over and if you watch it again you'll see that very little actually happened; compare with He theat Believeth, the first five minutes, and you get close ups of vipers following combat, swooping past ships, scores of raiders and get to watch the weapons firing; best combat of the series IMO.
I agree, the mural does include something that loks very much like the ship of lights, judging by the picture on the wiki. On the mural, we can see three very bright white things. One is obviously the comet she talked about, one could be her ship, and the other? Ill upload a cap of her flashback. We can see the planet, a comet, a very bright thing on the comets tail, and two bright objects, one at least of which appears to be a star.

Personally, I hated this episode, there were too many flashbacks, too much slow music, too much Cally doing nothing but wining. Tory sending her out of the airlock was full of win, but again, I'm annoyed the episode ended where it did. I felt there was too much filler that was merely setting up for the future.
The cylon scenes were great, and it appears that the war is escalating, perhaps dangerously if the 6's continue to push cavil. I'm glad they didn't let it go so quickly and just let D'Anna back, but am annoyed that the cylons got maybe 7 minutes of the whole episode. Loving the shiny new centurions, love the intelligence they are showing, and I hope that they will take an even more important role in the future.
Can confirm that something that appears to be Orion is present in the ambush scene, wonder what it means...

[Shane]

I took the liberty of getting the pictures of Orion and highlighting it for those who can not see it.

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/6/6e/Orion_belt.jpg

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/e/ee/Orion_belt_highlighted.jpg (http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/e/ee/Orion_belt_highlighted.jpg)

At least based on the Astronomy class I have had and going to the planetarium, if you follow the belt from left to right, you will reach the north star. More about this in this thread (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=776&highlight=triple+star).

[Jason1975]

Shane, ty plus I have to mention cincinnati_mike since he brought orion up first. you did a great job with that. Since they were at the Nebula, I was thought they were close to earth. You just presented evidence of that. so ty

[Shane]

Shane, ty plus I have to mention cincinnati_mike since he brought orion up first. you did a great job with that. Since they were at the Nebula, I was thought they were close to earth. You just presented evidence of that. so ty
It was a very good catch indeed. I was so busy watching the show, I missed it the first time. It's only there for ~one second and in the corner. Took me two times to get a good enough screenshot. :D

[Asiriya]

Whether or not it means something or if they were simply showing off the Demetrius, but they showed several shots of its exterior, with the star scape taking up half the screen. I'm not especially good with the stars, but I wonder if there were any more clues there?

[Crewman Blinkin]

At least based on the Astronomy class I have had and going to the planetarium, if you follow the belt from left to right, you will reach the north star. More about this in this thread (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=776&highlight=triple+star).





I hate to disappoint you, but at no point following the line created by Orion's belt do you intersect Polaris. You are probably thinking of following the two stars of the Big Dipper not connected to the "handle" which form a line pointing to Polaris.

Orion is significant for other reasons however. The twelve colonies are named for twelve constellations albeit corrupted (Kobol's Last Gleaming II, when they see the signs of the twelve colonies in Earth's sky, they say that the names are from their ancient form or something to that effect). These twelve constellations also happen to make up the Zodiac signs used in western astrology. Now, Orion is significant because it is both neither a sign of any of the twelve colonies nor a sign in the Zodiac. Also, it is one of the largest and easiest to spot of the constellations. This means that unless this is in fact a red herring, the Cylons are much closer than they think to Earth as well as on the right path (within at most 150 light years for all of the stars in the constellation to be visible... Bellatrix, which is Orions left shoulder, is 250 light years from Sol).

As for the flashing triple star being Orion's belt, as speculated in the link you posted, I doubt it, simply because Starbuck is versed enough in Astronomy to know the difference between three stars making a pattern and a system of three stars sharing a common gravitational center. While the Alpha Centaurus system and an unknown trinary pulsar make the most readily obvious candidates, Shane may be on to something with his thought that Polaris is worth mentioning, since Polaris is in fact a trinary system, where one of the companion stars is ridiculously close to the main star, so close in face that its existence was only extrapolated from the gravitational tug on Polaris A. As for the flashing, I got nothing. I suppose if the orbits were fast enough and Starbuck were in the right position, then there might be a perceptible change in brightness, but a flashing effect? Ya got me there.

[Leoben]

I almost wish she had done that. it would have been much better. The devotion to an ideal. The controversy and the discussion of what is human. Is a child made by Cylon and Human in fact human? Is it something else? What is it? Are we only supposed to be outraged at human loss of life? What is life? How is the line further blurred?

As an aside, it appears that Starbuck has not told her crew what they are looking for.



Part of me wishes they had gone that route too, though with the way Galen can be, losing both and recently finding out he was a Cylon may have been too much.

As for Kara's painting, I really think it's just Jupiter and the Trinary star she mentioned. It could have something to do with the beings of light, but since I have not seen the entire TOS I'm not really going to comment on that for the time being. I think the crew does know, some even volunteered like Anders said. It seemed like Anders was asking her if she had anymore information to tell them so they could continue to look over various star charts.

The Cylon scenes are typically the ones I enjoy most. I wish they'd devote a little more screen time to what's going on with them. It's just as important, at least in my mind, as some of the other plot points they've covered.

[dalas9]

I just watched it!

What a dark episode...

OMFG! I think that season 4 has put the show in a higher level.
Technically it's probably the best episode of the whole series.
Directing, sound, music (best music ever played in an frakking episode) are unbelievable. Chiefs voice aside the flashbacks when talking with Cally after she saw the four at the room is simply amazing.

Simple free lessons by Moore, how you take a side character and you trasform it, in just a single episode, to a major one. OMG it's Tory! :rdm-cylon:

Only BSG can bring this chill....

@Professor: I think Ship of Lights could explain lot of things... :wink-still:

[Shane]

I hate to disappoint you, but at no point following the line created by Orion's belt do you intersect Polaris. You are probably thinking of following the two stars of the Big Dipper not connected to the "handle" which form a line pointing to Polaris.

Oops. My bad :yikes: Guess I gotta sharpen up my :detective: skills. :out:

[Zubenelgenubi]

Greetings.

What an episode. I was missing Cally and I was glad that she was going to return. Didn't expect the return to be that short. :( Kudos to the team for the unexpected twist.

Now, what will Galen do? His cyloning cost his wife's life. Does he know that Tory killed her, or does he believe that she committed suicide? If he knew what happened, it would drive him nuts (worser than now). What if the four start working against each other? Great to see that at least one of them is getting past "what gonna we do? what gonna we do?" phase.

I feel compelled to comment these Orion sightings -- to see Orion undistorted, one must be very close to the Earth, within a few dozen of light years at maximum. Although almost all the stars in the constellation are very luminous (i.e. the constellation looks quite similar even relatively far away) Bellatrix in upper right is quite near to us and would be displaced. Which leads to the question, why how nobody hasn't spotted our planet yet?

I don't understand what is so important about Polaris regarding BSG. True, it is actually a giant star, but it is nowhere among the brightest. It is also rather far from the Earth. In fact, it is not even among the brightest stars in Earth's sky. Its only significance is that it happens to be now near Earth's celestial north pole (i.e. Earth's axis points at it). That was not true a thousand years ago, and in 3000 AD it is again no longer the pole star.

The first thing about the "triple star" that came to my mind was Alpha Centauri. However, as seen from the Earth the stars appears as one (and Proxima is so inconspicuous that it can no way be one of the stars depicted). The big planet is obviously Jupiter. I got the impression that she meant by the ringed planet another gas giant, which obviously would be Saturn.

Who's behind all of this? Cylons are obviously as much paws as humans, so they're not the whole answer. Who put Starbuck in a brand-new fighter and send her back? We shall see...

[Leoben]

On a side note. Did anyone feel that the trailer, especially in hindsight, for this episode was really poorly done?

They basically showed a how the biggest plot event of the episode pans out. The only thing really shocking was Tory giving Cally that massive backhand.

[ShadowEnigma]

Yeah, I try to stay away from the tailers and the opening credits because both tend to tell me more than I want to know.

[Orpheus_Lupus]

That probably didn't help my original opinion of the episode, no :-P

[ThPrime]

"Anyone want to remind me what we're supposed to be looking for? Didn't you get the commander's memo? It's a unique astronomic cluster consisting of a ringed gas giant, a trinary star and a comet. Astronomic cluster, sounds more like a cluster frak."

Sounds more like we've been thrown a curve ball.

A trinary system with a ringed gas giant and a comet could be Alpha Centauri. Her flashback scene seems to depict, from left to right, Alpha Centauri B (spectral G like our Sun), Alpha Centauri A (spectral K, smaller yellow white) and tiny Proxima (red dwarf) in the foreground of the gas giant. Proxima would "flash" emitting flares and in the scene a reddish plasma is seen peeling off the glowy object.

Since we know she photographed the Moon, maybe she visited both ours and the neighboring system between her blackouts?

[Neakal]

Pretty heavy episode. Before moving on to Cally, I gotta say I'm relieved they FINALLY gave screen time to ramifications of Lee freeing Baltar. It has cost him his place in the "aristocracy" and, in a way, it is good to see in a storyline point of view.

Cylon developments are getting really interesting. I really loved the small Centurion quirks that show that they are now sentient intelligent beings. Hoping we will see more of their awesomeness. I'm realy enjoying their growth from "scary props" as another poster had mentioned.

Cally, I had seen it coming. I saw a spoiler section although how she died was a surprise to me. I think it was quite heavy and despite not having been quite crazy about her I gotta admit she DID have a cuteness in the bite-your-ear-off format. Always enjoyed her violent streaks beneath her smallish stature. For those reason, the death of Cally was one of the more important deaths in the series although I will not be going "how can they kill Cally I hate you RDM!". The episode had the sort of mood from the start and I liked her memories with the surrounding with little things such as the baby-toy-light thing with patterns. However, I do feel her final shot with frozen in space was overdone. It shouldn't have been that close or "shocking" but maybe more subtle. Maybe like how they did with Kat. I was thinking that maybe it would be a more distant shot of her body drifting as the Fleet kept moving away slowly and the camera panning to show Orion before screen goes dark. But thats me. Her death still had impact on me and I still had that out-of-breath sort of "holy hell!" feeling. BTW, anyone else noticed how some sounds seemed muffled on certain scenes with Cally and Roslin? I first thought it was an audial error but seeing it was consistent with them, I figured it was their reaction to medicines. Made it hard to hear what Chief said though.

Speaking of Orion, I can't believe I failed to spot that despite watching that particular shot three times, mainly to catch a piece of conversation. Seeing that our skyline is creeping to the BSG im thiking theyre pretty close to the Solar System now. I think the image Kara painted (which appeared in a split-second flashback) was Jupiter and the comet. I don't know why some people mentioned Saturn but I neither saw a discernable ring that characterises Saturn, nor thought the planetoid resembled Saturn. The coloration seemed more similar to Jupiter. Those three stars, I am not sure. I hope to whatever-is-out-there it will not go the same way as Ship of Lights which, if my readings and a scene I saw (Apollo's ressurection) are enough indicators, it is going to feel really inappropriate.

Kara's I-hate-you-Anders-lets-frak seemed forced. She spent months trying to save him from Caprica and she just throws him? I know Unfinished Business supports Anders "being safe" and I know Kara isn't the same person that went in there but it still felt out of place. The mood of the rest of the ship is pretty tense. I hope it keeps up like that.

Oh, and Leoben, in all honesty the trailer was ok. Yes it did show Tory airlocking Cally but EVERYWHERE I read was saying it wasn't the way it looked and that there would be a twist. I may be over-analysing but in this case here, I feel not having a twist was the twist. I mean none of us really saw Cally being killed like that (instead of suicide) and Tory's role in it did we?

Besides, where theres a spoiler, theres a way to spoil stuff ALWAYS. I found myself looking specifically at the "Spolier" sections of future episodes like "The Hub" and went "Oh my god I shoudn't have seen this nonono!" after looking for them SPECIFICALLY with noone to blame but me :) The real trick is maintaining the excitement and the shock DESPITE spoilers and things like Kara's "death", the Final Five and Pegasus had that effect on me despite having known about them. Going offtopic now.

Sorry JDS but it was still a good episode :)

Edit: Holy hell thats a long post.

[Protostar]

I didn't read the entire thread, but did anyone else catch the blurb at the Quorum meeting where something blurted out something about a "free trade deal?" I just thought that was humorous considering there's just under 40000 people left alive and they're talking about free trade. With who, the cylons?:lol:

[buerger23]

So what about the Sixes and Co. are they all dead? And why did Cavil do that you can see that Boomer was having some regrets. And what's with Cavil and Boomer? Do they love each other? Obviously but how is that possible they are both Cylons.

[Osprey]

the cylon death toll from their now-overt interneiciene war is quite unclear at the moment. lucy lawless fans may have to wait several more weeks for her return
/frak!

boomer must feel something for "cavil prime" but i think that's another avenue that will be explored in more detail over the coming weeks. are 8s just naturally drawn more into relationships than 6s or 3s??!!

off-the-wall question -- where's hera? is she "sentenced" to demetrius with her parents? and since nicky appears to be a very hefty 12 mos. or so, doesn't that make her like 2 &1/2? is this whole "next generation" going somewhere since there are still at present 2 of said generation?

[Leoben]

I imagine the kids will become more important as we begin to see more Human and Cylon interaction and/or when the lid about the the F5's (at least the 4 we know anyway) identity is revealed to the fleet.

The whole child thing was brought up so much in season 2, I imagine we haven't heard the last of it.

I watched the episode again and caught the Orion constellation. While I'm sure the fleet can't be too far removed from the Cylons, I found it pretty interesting that a resurrection server would have a view of it. Seems to hint that the Cylons may have unknowingly set up outposts (and possibly the Central Resurrection Hub) even closer to Earth.

[Osprey]

"unknowingly set up outposts (and possibly the Central Resurrection Hub) even closer to Earth."

"alright, put it by that red planet just inside that smallish asteroid belt."
[!]
/can u imagine the demetrius stumbling across them?!

[Leoben]

Now that would be something and truthfully I could see it happen. I'll put the next bit in spoiler tags, just in case.

If the rumors of the Kara/Leoben reunion (supposedly on Earth according to Jamie Bamber aka Lee) that might be exactly what happens.

If the Cylons set up an outpost on Mars and couldn't figure out they were practically in Earth's back yard, I'd be wondering how they ever became sentient in the first place :P.

[Osprey]

i would put some serious cubits on your surmise being accurate -- and cool to see!

[james968]

"unknowingly set up outposts (and possibly the Central Resurrection Hub) even closer to Earth."

"alright, put it by that red planet just inside that smallish asteroid belt."
/can u imagine the demetrius stumbling across them?!

They never did actually show if there was anything at the ambush site, also it could have been one of the jumps before getting to the resurection hub.

I find the 6's actions at the ambush site really....dumb. 'No resurrection ship, lets keep going'. 'They're a bunch of Cavil ships waiting for us, lets fly by them' 'Lets follow Cavil's map'

Also why is it that Cavil has to explain the resurrection process to them and where to go. Shouldn't they already know.

As for the Demitrius finding them. I'm pretty sure that going to happen, or they are going to encounter the survivors (very close by).

[ouiouiwewe]

It's not all that illogical actually. The Cylons (comprised of the SS) are a relatively new race that have only recently experienced major divisions within their population. Judging from the surprise they had with the 3's going their own way, Boomer voting against her own model, and Natalie kicking the 1's, 4's, and 5's off her ships, the measure that Cavil has taken is likely just as surprising to the Cylons as a whole. While the Cylons are generally pretty smart, they are new to this and probably not quick enough to adapt their initially pristine worldview to their recently rapidly-changing culture. I'd say their forbidden fruit is either Caprica's love for Baltar or D'Anna's quest for the Five.

Also, the 6's only have a few seconds between noticing the Resurrection ship's absense and identifying the Cavils' hostility.

They never did actually show if there was anything at the ambush site, also it could have been one of the jumps before getting to the resurection hub.

I find the 6's actions at the ambush site really....dumb. 'No resurrection ship, lets keep going'. 'They're a bunch of Cavil ships waiting for us, lets fly by them' 'Lets follow Cavil's map'

Also why is it that Cavil has to explain the resurrection process to them and where to go. Shouldn't they already know.

As for the Demitrius finding them. I'm pretty sure that going to happen, or they are going to encounter the survivors (very close by).

[Leoben]

Agreed, Six basically says they have to jump and as soon as the words leave her mouth the ships FTL is hit. There really only is 10 seconds or so between the completion of the jump and the attack from Cavil.

I think what's interesting is despite all thats happened with the models so far, that they trusted Cavil's word, especially with him speaking for the other lines.

[1Nivek1]

can u imagine the demetrius stumbling across them?!

That would be an interesting twist. Somehow, someway there are going to have to be cylons teamed up with humans. That would be a good way. That they are left for dead, and the Demetrius comes across, and lends a hand (although I'm not sure how Kara would get on board with that). I will puke if Helo gets involved in helping them tho:p

Good posit Osprey. Also would tie in to the purpose of the Orion cluster in the back.

[ShadowEnigma]

Get on board? I find it interesting they have two vipers, but they are docked outside. If anything, they would have to put a suit on and float out to the vipers or to the other ship if they can't dock somehow.

That would be interesting if the Demetrius came across the Cylons like that. Could definitely put a lot of tension and such. Kara coming back again bringing a Cylon (like she did with the Caprica Arc). Especially with how a lot of people feel about her, that would be a lot of issues there to contest with.

[Neakal]

Slightly offtopic question: Did anyone else notice during the scene Cally experiencing flashbacks following her discovery that Chief is a Cylon, one of her flashbacks is Chief puncturing his finger with a knife and licking the blood. I always assumed it was part of her paranoia and how it distorted the things she remembered (Cally's second flashback of Joe's Bar depicts chief and Tory kissing which, from what I can tell, did not happen). However, that whole finger-lick sequence stands out as being...odd. Did I miss this happening in reality or does it have some sort of symbolic meaning?

[buerger23]

I would say more symbolic than anything. Like Chief is seeing if his blood looks or tastes different then anyone else's or if he has healing power. Or potentially it different than regular human blood?

[ThPrime]

Slightly offtopic question: Did anyone else notice during the scene Cally experiencing flashbacks following her discovery that Chief is a Cylon, one of her flashbacks is Chief puncturing his finger with a knife and licking the blood. I always assumed it was part of her paranoia and how it distorted the things she remembered (Cally's second flashback of Joe's Bar depicts chief and Tory kissing which, from what I can tell, did not happen). However, that whole finger-lick sequence stands out as being...odd. Did I miss this happening in reality or does it have some sort of symbolic meaning?

I think it's a flash forward, foreshadowing across episodes. They did this at least twice with D'Anna last season. A full "Chief with knife" scene should be part of an upcoming episode, maybe the next one. That's the beefy season four Chief, not from any earlier scene I can recall. Now why a future event was part of Cally's personal mental flashbacks is a mystery, to say the least. The blood drop hitting the deck scene is taken from season two's "Resistance" where Cally shot Boomer in the corridor. As Boomer dies a trickle of blood leaves her mouth releasing the drop. Cally has a similar trickle of blood from her mouth just before she dies. So a little supernatural and a little symbolism.

[OldManRivers]

One of my favorite BSG episodes. No joke, really one of my favorites. I like these side-characters and episodes centering on them, as well as the main characters. I just like huge casts and it all being intertwined. Cally is a beautiful character, always has been. I kind of knew it was coming, although I wish I didn't see the preview and now opting to stay away from all spoilers.

The question of her suicide is quite, scary. Understandably, finding out the father of your child a Cylon? That' fucking unbelievable. There is nothing equivalent to that emotion and feeling on our planet. It was all reactionary too. In heated emotion, anger, fear, etc. She wasn't thinking clear headedly. She acted, and reacted to her action. This brought her to the airlock. Tori finally got her to calm down and make her listen to the voice of reality in her head. She shouldn't airlock herself out.

But when Tori smacked across the room, I was like "HOOO SNAP!". I say super-cylon strength, but I'll wait for more conclusive evidence.

But RDM is known for booting off main characters. It's what I love about his writing. He's not afraid to break normal conventions and not afraid to go into dangerous territory. I like, keep it up. Some call it "shock factor", but it's something new and different from the blase writing we are used to. He has done it again with killing off a really important character in this revelation of final fiveness. Which is coming to be the arch for season 4.0. Dealing with the relevation of these final five, what it means, and how their relationships with each other, and others play out. There is nothing like this in our universe, can only be told in Science Fiction narrative, and is entirely cool.

I'll be interested to see how this plays out with Galen and the rest of the Final Five. What will Tori tell the others? What will the official story be? What will the crews response be? All interesting questions to be played out.


Now, for the cylon civil war. This is getting really exciting. This faction is neat, cool, and really interesting. You know what's weird, we are not rooting for some faction of the Cylon race. Remember back when they were our sworn mortal enemies. Now we're cheering for them, in some manor. This twist of relationships, how over the seasons the writers have played out the relationship between our heroes, the colonials, the enemies, is morphing, switching, and all coming together. All the relationships are changing.


and holy FRAK was that scene between Kara and Anders hot. I haven't for a while, but I, like many other men, wished I was Anders...haha. Kara Thrace is so hot, for so many reasons. But this mission of hers has a new kind of confidence. It's like she's been waiting for her destiny to kick in from season 1-3, and now, it's in high gear and she knows her purpose and can fulfill it. It's a major change, but interesting to play out because it' s not something we have seen before really.

And the Quorum of Twelve is also interesting. It's an interesting plot device for dialogue and plot. I like it. Politics can seem boring to some, but I really find it interesting. Especially how it works in other cultures and no doubt the Colonies had their own culture different from what most of us know. So I like this, and support of Lee becoming a politicians. I will also re-affirm my profound belief in the character of tom zarek. I've liked him since we first were introduced to him. It's an embodiment to how a man change change over the attack and exodus. He was a freedom fighter before, fighting for his people, using what tactics at his disposal, and now he serves as vp and manipulator in the polity of present day colonial politics. It reminds of present day politics actually. Is it so far removed to believe that political-magicians also work the same magic in your countries senate, parliament, etc.? It's not evil, but reasonable. It's for this believability I have respect in the character, and Tom Zarek with in the show because I think he knows what he's doing and he know who he is. This is why I like him.


So onward goes the Empire, and on goes BSG!

[TPL2008]

Is it just me or when Lee is speaking at the beginning about he's taking over from delegate Kallen (sp?), when he says the words 'Delegate Kellen' it sounds as though that line was dubbed over?

His voice jumps higher and doesn't flow with the rest of the sentence.

[fijnemens]

I kinda felt that Tory was intentionally guding Cally towards her death, knowing she might be able to slow down Chief Tyrol. The signs were there, the note left in the chief's quarters (and Tory picking him up), Tory and chief at Joe's bar (she was kinda coming on to him and Cally saw it...), and the fact that she knew where to find Cally (airlock), I guess Tory has a new mean streak... me like :-)

[Proxenus]

What is interesting is how each of the Four are reacting to being (or at least think they are) a Cylon.

Colonel Tigh is supressing everything and trying to act as though nothing is different.

Chief Tyrol is trying to work it out and figure out what he's going to do.

Tory Foster seems to be losing her humanity.

Ensign Anders is full of doubt but is trying to act normal (kinda like Tigh).

[Osprey]

but unlike saul, sam is being put in situations where he can't act normal [confronting the raider, dealing with kara's search on the demetrius, etc.]

[1Nivek1]

Well, I think the 4 have all gone different routes (and I think it is worth pointing out that they are all done through their own actions, not some fate driven programming).

1)Tyrol-step into madness....my guess is Tory will feed him some line of sh*t, and he will confide in her (not to say he wont eventually find out.

2)Tory-believes she is an "evil" Cylon, and therefore should act like one. Feels she is superior to humans now, and will lose all her morality

3)Anders-thinks Kara is a Cylon because of her general "wierdness". He will continue to struggle as to whether to tell Kara the truth, as she becomes more reliant on him as a rock of support

4)Tigh-still up in the air on this one. Will he actually be the rational one? Prob not......we'll see

[ThPrime]

Is it just me or when Lee is speaking at the beginning about he's taking over from delegate Kallen (sp?), when he says the words 'Delegate Kellen' it sounds as though that line was dubbed over?

His voice jumps higher and doesn't flow with the rest of the sentence.

Not just you. One of Cavil's lines was also dubbed. The scene was Chief out of focus behind Cally reminded me of Baltar and Head Six on the beach where she explains projection. They postprocessed sun flare over their mouths and redid the entire scene's dialog. :)

[buerger23]

My thoughts are that Tigh will stay with the fleet and if the rest of them go crazy and start trying to stop the fleet he will tell Adama or something along those lines. Even though it's hard to see. He will stay and be the rational one. Saying to himself that he's fought this far with the humans and that either he tells himself he is one or he thinks it's too late to switch sides so he will stay with the Colonials either way.

[Leoben]

On a much lighter note, did anyone pick the Star Trek reference in this episode?

[ShadowEnigma]

What Star Trek reference?

[Xenon242]

1)Tyrol-step into madness....my guess is Tory will feed him some line of sh*t, and he will confide in her (not to say he wont eventually find out.

2)Tory-believes she is an "evil" Cylon, and therefore should act like one. Feels she is superior to humans now, and will lose all her morality

3)Anders-thinks Kara is a Cylon because of her general "wierdness". He will continue to struggle as to whether to tell Kara the truth, as she becomes more reliant on him as a rock of support

4)Tigh-still up in the air on this one. Will he actually be the rational one? Prob not......we'll see

Tyrol
My guess is he's going to go back to being quasi-suicidal (à la 'Lay Down Your Burdens'). First Boomer, then finding out he's a Cylon, then Cally? That's going to tip him over the deep end.

Tory
I think I doubt she had any morality to begin with. Part of the impact of the reveal is that the audience has a good deal of emotional investment in Tigh, Tyrol and Anders; less so Tory because she was never set up as a sympathetic character to begin with.

Anders
I agree with you on this one.

Tigh
He's going to be the one to watch. One thing's for sure, he's probably going to hit the bottle with a vengeance, if I'm any judge of things. I also believe he's not over Ellen's betrayal, made even worse now that he's discovered he's really the enemy he killed Ellen for fraternising with. Too big a blow for him to handle and just shrug off like it's the same-old, same-old.

In the end, I think that the two who are most at risk of blurting are Anders and Tigh; Anders 'cos, like you said, will figure Starbuck for being a Cylon and will come clean with her; Tigh by possibly saying something in a drunken fit.

[Leoben]

What Star Trek reference?

The arms locker they met in was 1701D the designation for the Enterprise in TNG.

[ShadowEnigma]

Oh wow, I didn't notice! That's sweet.. I'll have to look at that later this week if I rewatch it.

[Webomatica]

I have a lot of sympathy for Callie too. She almost died way back in the prison when Zarek was introducted, almost died on Kobol at the hands of Crashdown, almost died on New Caprica at the hands of a firing squad, and getting locked in an airlock - etc. What did she ever do to anybody except bite an ear? :)

[Jonathan]

How would people feel if Callie had opened the airlock door while holding the baby without being interrupted by a skinjob or anyone else?

Pro, Con?

I've said earlier in this thread that I'd be for that because of the human interest angle and where the story could go with it.

[soupfreak]

There is something I know about this ep...












...This may very well NOT be the last time you see Cally!

DUN DUN DUNNNNNN!!!

[Leoben]

How would people feel if Callie had opened the airlock door while holding the baby without being interrupted by a skinjob or anyone else?

Pro, Con?

I've said earlier in this thread that I'd be for that because of the human interest angle and where the story could go with it.

I would have liked to see how it changes peoples views on her. Personally, my opinion of her is based mainly on this incident. She didn't have a chance to push that button, but she still went there with the intent. Makes her an unfit mother and further shows how unstable she is. Especially since we know that she could have sought help in a variety of ways. I really have no sympathy for her.

[stavrosg]

On Kara's possible pregnacy: That would probably be another hybrid, since the last time Kara and Lee actually did something more than kissing or hugging was back on New Caprica. Or that's how I understand the situation.

Boomer & Cavil could be in love, too. Especially since Boomer was in love with another cylon in the past (never mind that neither of them was aware of that ;P)

And I *really* want to know where is Hera; Both parents leaving on this crazy mission and leaving her behind?! WTF? And after all that they went through? Doesn't make sense :/

[t8765]

I sympathies with her, we all deal with stress in different ways, she had survived thru a lot physically and emotionally then she finds out something that totally changes her world and she sees no way to deal with it and have her life anywhere near what she wanted for it. Suicidal ideations when confronted with a bomb like that are not uncommon, and that might be all it was a suicidal gesture not a suicide attempt.

She flipped and her last decision was a bad one, I was pulling for her to go tell Adama what she had herd but she lost it. I knew she shouldn’t trust that cylon snake in the grass I hope she eats a bullet with no resurrections ship in sight.

My final thought on callie.. sad situation (By the way she was smoke'n hot, were talk'n top 3)

[james968]

And I *really* want to know where is Hera; Both parents leaving on this crazy mission and leaving her behind?! WTF? And after all that they went through? Doesn't make sense :/

Its the "Friends" phenomena. SNL News did a story a few days after the Series Finale, making light of the fact that the baby seemed to have been forgotten: "A New York couple was arrested today for leaving there baby alone while they straightened out there on and off relationship" Picture of Ross/Rachel flash on the screen.

Hopefully the writers didn't just: Forget the baby in the raptor with the windows rolled up.

[james968]

Remember when Boomer first resurrected and she realized then, she definitely was a cylon. IF Cally is the final one, I wonder if she is having one of those days right now. (I know they don't resurrected, but one of the themes seems to be people changing their strong opinions and her finding out SHE'S ONE OF THEM!!! OW!)

[stavrosg]

Remember when Boomer first resurrected and she realized then, she definitely was a cylon. IF Cally is the final one, I wonder if she is having one of those days right now. (I know they don't resurrected, but one of the themes seems to be people changing their strong opinions and her finding out SHE'S ONE OF THEM!!! OW!)
I don't believe that the final five have the ability to resurrect, at the moment at least. There has to be a resurrection ship around with spare bodies, and if that were the case, the S7 would know about them and how they look right from the start. Doesn't make sense to me.

I think we will only be seeing Cally in flashbacks from now on, if we get to see her again at all.

[ShadowEnigma]

I'd have to agree. Cally is gone. :(

I don't think the FF can resurrect either. I think they are too human to be able to do that.

[Starstruck]

I don't believe that the final five have the ability to resurrect, at the moment at least. There has to be a resurrection ship around with spare bodies, and if that were the case, the S7 would know about them and how they look right from the start. Doesn't make sense to me.

I think we will only be seeing Cally in flashbacks from now on, if we get to see her again at all.

Agreed, unless, as some others have guessed, the old centurions might have their own ships and might be connected to the five. They did have at least one of their own hybrid, after all.

[buerger23]

That would be interesting but I think the Old Centurion thing was a one shot thing I don't think they'll be back unless in Flashbacks which even then I doubt.

[OldManRivers]

Had Cally killed herself and her son, would her reaction to finding out her husband is a Cylon understandable? Just, reasonable, okay? She is after all one major Cylon hater. Even with Athena after all this time. It's quite the shocker and we the viewer don't know everything the colonials know. We didn't have our entire societies wiped out, annihilated, and still trying to blow us away. They fraked with us in so many ways, and could we just forgive them like the wave of a wand. Then imagine your most hated enemy, becoming your husband, the father of your child, the person you love and care about so deeply.

It'd be a frakin mind trip.

[UnRep]

Did Cally see Orion when she looked out of the (badly placed) window?

[Xenon242]

Had Cally killed herself and her son, would her reaction to finding out her husband is a Cylon understandable? Just, reasonable, okay? She is after all one major Cylon hater. Even with Athena after all this time. It's quite the shocker and we the viewer don't know everything the colonials know. We didn't have our entire societies wiped out, annihilated, and still trying to blow us away. They fraked with us in so many ways, and could we just forgive them like the wave of a wand. Then imagine your most hated enemy, becoming your husband, the father of your child, the person you love and care about so deeply.

It'd be a frakin mind trip.

I think that's pretty much it, right there. I wasn't the least bit surprised at this reaction, in the sense that I'm pretty damned sure — for exactly the reasons you listed — it could happen to anyone.

[Helio]

I have a sneaking suspicion that ones (cavil's) know a great deal more then what they lead on to. Perhaps the new centurions contain the memories and brains of first-war era centurions; and their incredible intellect (and rage filled bloodlust) has been active and aware during their enslavement.....

It will be interesting to see what the centurions do next.

[ShadowEnigma]

That I definitely agree with. The centurions will be a new an interesting group, which could easily change a lot of things for the Cylons, considering how powerful they are. I wonder if the raiders can choose sides, because they might side with the Centurions as well.

Cavils are up to something. Whether is just their (awesome) cynical nature or if they know something, they definitely are working on something. It does seem like they know something.

[Dzonatas]

Cavils seem not want to tolerate change from what they have. It might not be that they know something; instead, they may be programmed to create a firewall to there destiny. In order for change to happen, the Cavils have to be wiped out or boxed, for example.

[buerger23]

Ya, something has defiantly got to happen with the Cavils' because if they don't the Cylons will be in constant civil war.

The Centurions are going to be a very interesting group. Now that they are self-aware are we going to be focusing on certain individuals with not necessarily names but with models numbers or some thing like that?

[redwards95]

One thing I wonder about is why didn't Cally go to Adama and let him know about Tigh, Torree, and Tyrol? I guess shock + drugs is the answer but still that would have been a better reaction than trying to kill herself and her kid.

Also the hybrid kids obviously are significant to the 7. Do the 5 also consider them of high importance or did Torree just save Nicky because he was too young to tell anybody about the 5 like his mom could?

[buerger23]

Tory saved Nick as either a bargaining chip to get chief or because she wasn't purely evil. She wouldn't sacrifice a child for nothing.

[OldManRivers]

I was sleeping last night and I had this relevation!

Only the Ones came out of FTL and attacked the Renegade fleet. No Fours or Eights (except for Boomer who was with Cavil). What does this mean? Maybe the Ones were acting alone. Maybe he was speaking the truth when he said "3's conscience is being downloaded at a central resurrection hub six jumps away". Mybae the Fours and Eights wern't into killing their own (the Renegades), and they helped them escape/out/whatever.

It's a thought anyways.

[buerger23]

That's a great Idea. And the more I think about it. I realize you are probably right. The Eights and fours and the rest may have gone to the Hub and the rest don't even know they are trying to kill part of the renegades.

[positron]

Taped this episode last week and just got around to watching it Thursday night and I am quite shocked at what happened. Cally was one of my favorite characters and she's just so darn cute. Very sad episode indeed. I have to say that I wasn't shocked at what the brother Cavil's did to the Six's though...I knew they weren't going to let what happened last week slide. What's up with Zarek, he looked pretty P.O.'d in that press conference?

[Asiriya]

No, I think the other models were present with Cavil, other wise he would haev been acting alone, and that would just widen the rift. I find it strange that there were no Sixes on the attacking basestars though, maybe they have all migrated onto model defined ships.

Can someone explain what Zarek was trying to do with Lee please? He was on Laura's side, and yet he was feeding Lee information? Why? To protect Laura because he thinks people will reject the ideas, or is he trying to make Lee look bad?

[positron]

I think Zarek wants Lee to ask the questions that he can't and go where he can't so to speak. Zarek is on Laura's administration now so openly opposing her wouldn't be good for him at this point...or would it? He knows that whether the truth would be popular or not, Lee Adama will come out with it.

[james968]

Imagine: They Hybrid in her pool slips under the water, just before she goes "Muurdder"

(Oh wait wrong SciFi)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Tom Zarek will ascend to the presidency upon Roslin's death. From his perspective, he has much more to lose if he goes against her openly.

The question we should be asking is why should Zarek make waves now when he can get someone else to do it for him in the interim?

[james968]

The question we should be asking is why should Zarek make waves now when he can get someone else to do it for him in the interim?

I think in principle Tom Zarek does not agree with direction Laura is going. Even if one day he will have those power, he doesn't think anyone should have it. (He did spend 3 months in extra-judicial detention and faced extra-judicial execution. )

The other thing is that he has created Lee, can he control him? (Remember "All of this has happened before and will happen again")

[Rockman]

That I definitely agree with. The centurions will be a new an interesting group, which could easily change a lot of things for the Cylons, considering how powerful they are. I wonder if the raiders can choose sides, because they might side with the Centurions as well.

Cavils are up to something. Whether is just their (awesome) cynical nature or if they know something, they definitely are working on something. It does seem like they know something.

My first post...

Several points:

My top 4 candidates for the final Cylon are:
#1 Lee Adama - the line about - what if my brother came back now and was a Cylon, would it matter?

#2 Laura Roslin - That would be really warped !http://www.battlestarforum.com/images/battlestar/icons/icon11.gif

#3 Cally - she will make a surpise resurrection on a cylon ship (I think the final 5 CAN resurrect).

#4 A centurion - I bet you're not thinking that way!

The centurion thing is based on a little scene that no one has commented on in this episode. Cavill comes into the room and a Centurion is supposedly cleaning up the slaughter site. But he is not really paying attention to cleaning, he is listening to the conversation. Why would HE be so interested - there are other Centurions standing guard in the room. When the others leave, he gives a wry look over his shoulder - what is up with that?

I believe something is going on with the Centurions that is being entirely missed!

[ShadowEnigma]

Your first post and you quote me? I feel so honored. Welcome to the forums!

Yes the Centurions are definitely up to something, I don't think they will be the fifth though. Hopefully they will do lots about the Cylon schism going on next episode.

I don't think it will be Laura. Her part in all of this seems to die, and to go out fighting. As much as I would like to see Cally come back, I don't think she will. Lee would be interesting, especially if he ascends higher in office before he finds out.

[bazzyb]

I found it interesting to hear that RDM (in the podcast) expressed disappointment with many parts of the final cut of this episode.

I do admire the man's honesty about all the episodes across the four seasons

[Dzonatas]

I wondered what Cavil meant when he was talking about soul/machine to Boomer. The podcast clears that up to say it shows a flaw.