What is your LEAST favourite episode??

[Zod]

okay, so we have the favourite episode thread doing great business, so keeping with the theme ( and because I am a 'glass is half empty' type of guy!!) what is your LEAST favourite episode???

I am sure that I might have some agreement in this one, but mine is 'Black Market'. As I think this might be a given, it might be an idea to list your 2nd least favourite episode, so i am going with 'The Woman King'

[Lestat]

Black Market and the Passage

[Zod]

So 2 already for Black Market!! Keep it coming folks!!!

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

"Black Market", "Sacrifice","A Measure of Salvation", and "Hero".

[Zod]

3 now for Black Market!! Cheers Joe!!

[aylinn]

Black Market and The Woman King.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

"The Woman King" wasn't bad... It wasn't good, either, but it wasn't bad. It was a "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode set on Galactica.

Not as bad as that bad plot device that was "A Measure of Salvation", which was pure nonsense.

[ShadowEnigma]

"The Woman King" wasn't bad... It wasn't good, either, but it wasn't bad. It was a "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode set on Galactica.

Now that you mention it, I have to agree with that. Maybe that's why I'm indifferent to it. However for a BSG episode I do find it on the poor side.

Not as bad as that bad plot device that was "A Measure of Salvation", which was pure nonsense.

Yeah... 'A Measure of Salvation' isn't my favorite either. Though bringing up the idea of humane/legal genocide was an interesting topic to me though. I think it was definitely something the colonists had to wrestle with at some point, but they could have done a better way of bringing it up.

Just to ruin the trend, I personally didn't find 'Black Market' to be that bad of an episode. Though I think they could have written it better, but to show the dark side of the civilian population was rather interesting to me. I think it helps add to the overall feel of the show. I mean, the colonists are supposed to be the good guys and surviving and such, but yet here they are causing corruption and problems within themselves.

[Shane]

"Black Market", "A measure of Salvation", "Hero",

[Spencerian]

Definitely "Black Market." An unnecessary bit of angst for Lee Adama. Could've garrotted Fisk and jumped right to "The Captain's Hand."

[toaster_lover]

black market, absolutely my least favorite...couldnt get myself to give a crap about Adama'a prostitute and that whole story line...

[ShadowEnigma]

Anyone agree though that by going into the darker side of the civilian portion of the fleet adds some depth into the show? To acknowledge and show how the colonials are having problems, much like any society would now, adds to the realism and depth?

Granted, I do agree the prostitute/whatever of Lee and how they handled the episode made for poor watching, but I think the theme and idea was quite worthwhile and added to the overall show.

[aylinn]

The idea of showing the darker side of the colonials was very good, but they made a very boring episode to picture that.

[Malcolm]

315 - A Day in the Life

Boring. Untypical for a BSG episode.

[ShadowEnigma]

The idea of showing the darker side of the colonials was very good, but they made a very boring episode to picture that.

That I will agree with. The episode could have been done better.

[buerger23]

i hated blackmarket and not too sure of the name but the one where the doctor is poisoning people from different colony (tauron i think)

[iheartthesystem]

The Woman King, followed closely by Black Market. I would also count Hero and A Day in the Life amongst my least favorite ones.

[The Nubs]

There are episodes that I really didn't like such as Woman King and Black Market. But I hope that they weren't just thrown in there and had some long term use for the writers.

[Neakal]

I agree. Lee's "I almost forgot that I abandoned my pregnant fiancee in Caprica to be nuked 8 months ago until I attempted suicide out of disappointment to my daddy" plot in Black Market was unnecessary but, as others said, Dark Side of the Fleet was nice to see so Black Market isn't my least favourite.

As for the least favourites:
Hero because it punches continuity in the face (though Bulldog's music was nice).

A Day in Life. I missed the episode when I first watched S3, when I went back to watch it, I saw I missed nothing and could have skipped it which isnt a good thing for a series like BSG.

The Woman King. Dark but feels like it could have been written better. I did feel for Mrs. King but otherwise didn't feel like watching that episode again. And having Helo on the wrong side AGAIN gets frustrating. Dude. If you value your head, shut up. You are already on borrowed time before someone airlocks you out.

[EverlastingGaze]

Hero, Black Market, A Day in the Life...the general consensus on the matter shows how consistent the quality of the show is.

[Georgiotje]

Black market definitely sucked, but I don't know any reason why A measure of salvation was that bad? Wel except that the XO Agathon killed the cylons (I still hate him for doing that), that was pretty fake.. Hero also sucked..

[Maj. Apollo]

Black Market was terrible (music was class) and Woman king was shocking too, the less of those type of episodes the better really.
hero was good because we finally got to see shots of another Battlestar, not just the Galactica and the Pegasus

[Georgiotje]

Yeah, seeing the Valkyrie was pure ownage. But the rest sucked... Do you guys hope that Novacek will return as an officer in season 4? and what do you think about Helo (I don't know if it's allowed to ask this in this topic, if not I'm sorry)? I hope that he dies because he's a traitor, I even think he's worse than Baltar.

[Dwyn2435]

Black Market, even though I love Bill Duke.

[caprica_six]

oh ya TOTALLY Black Market first and formost, I hate that episode. It should have even been made, I refuse to watch it.

I don't like the Woman King either

[BklynBruzer]

I like every episode of the series, but the episode I like least is Black Market.

[ShadowEnigma]

You all wait, your hatred of Black Market will come back and haunt you!

[1Nivek1]

I agree mostly with everyone here. All of the episodes seem to be bad "filler" eps.

BUT, "A Measure of Salvation" definately. While Helo can be moronic cause he was born that way and you can't fix stupid....

Adama worried about how history will look back on this genocide? Hahaha!!! I about choked when he piped that one out....

Actually, the episode was a direct ripoff of Star Trek TNG's episode where they wish to implant a paradox into the Borg collective...effectively overloading and killing all of them.

Of course, history can't look back and criticize you when they're arent any historians cause the Cylons committed genocide on a almost 99.99999% percent level, and are about to take out the last 40k or so!!!!!

And, of course, they would weaponize the virus.

This is the part of BSG I don't like....when they overdramatize and end up in the ridiculous. At any point in these episodes, I wait for Luke Perry and Jason Priesely to come strolling around the corner with some bad 80's guitar in the background.

"A Measure of Salvation" should have went to the shredder. It's akin to an ER episode where a drug company ponders whether erradicating Polio was am act of genocide, and of course their main worries (with close ups/erratic dialogue) surrounding whether historians will judge them as monsters. ...Historians to be eventually cast as Luke Perry as Dr. Duane Dipstick and Jason Priesely as Professor NutsandBolts in the sequel.

[ShadowEnigma]

Adama worried about how history will look back on this genocide? Hahaha!!! I about choked when he piped that one out....

Of course, history can't look back and criticize you when they're arent any historians cause the Cylons committed genocide on a almost 99.99999% percent level, and are about to take out the last 40k or so!!!!!

And, of course, they would weaponize the virus.

Adama worrying doesn't surprise me. His character and personality is the type that would have those kinds of things in the back of his mind. He is always thinking and contemplating different things and different actions.

And there are always historians. You don't need to go to college to be a historian (Coming from a historian at college, how ironic, haha).

[1Nivek1]

And there are always historians.

Not if you're species is extinct....

Seriously, an enemy nukes your planet killing some 3 billion people. You're on a ship that barely got away by the skin of it's teeth w/ only 40k people. You totally surrender and retreat, but the enemy is not interested in surrender, but follows you in the hope of murdering every last remnant of your kind. The enemy traps you and decides to give you a respite by torturing your kind. Then, after you escape (again), they trail you back to the hopes of killing you. You can't go anywhere....they're not intested in conquering or land grabs....they're only interested in the ultimate extinction of mankind....And then you contemplate !? Haha! Character depth or not....that's just retarded.

That episode actually, if you take this stuff that seriously, ruined all of the series, because from now on, everytime they are cornered, outgunned, outmatched, being tortured, etc.... you have...

Adama: "So this is it......it's been an honor"

Gaeta : "But sir, if we injected Sharon with a common virus then shot her, we could eliminate the Cylons"

Adama: "My gods man! What would Arthur Schlesinger say!?"

Gaeta : "I'm sure he'd remark on how stupid you were, if he were still alive."

It was a digusting effort to let the writers make a statement. That is, they enjoy crossing lines (like the show 24). They employ execution without trial (circle of 6), torture (Baltar's injection), suicide bombings (occupation)etc., but when it comes to biological weapons ? Oh no! We would never do such a thing. (I do realize, in the end they often condemn their own actoins while not holding anyone responsible --- Oh the humanity!)

This is all very "sign of the times"...it's a shame BSG couldn't challenge conventional wisdom (as SciFi is supposed to). Instead it goes for ratings by not being a Jack Bauer-hating-p*ssy. It's tough, gritty, real, etc.

And, this IS the conventional wisdom of the US right now. It's ok to torture/kidnap through extraordinary rendition, our enemies have no Geneva Convention protections, ok to hold someone(even a US citizen) without Habeous Corpus if we write 'enemy combatant' on their shirt, ok to Data-Mine everyone's internet & phone records without warrants or oversight...

But two things are still taboo
#1)Suicide Bombing
#2)Biological/Chemical Weapons

and both were heavily admonished by the writers in BSG. (It is curious, however why the U.S., which is so adamantly against chemical warfare, still has 20,000 tons of "v-series" (VX) nerve agent stockpiled)

Not trying to get too political here (I don't take one side or the other), everything I've stated about the US is true and currently taking place [sorry, they are NOT consipracy theories...they're all heavily documented and admitted to]

This episode just underscores the whole problem with BSG. It's just not the well written Sci-Fi of old that challenged cultural mores and conventional wisdom. Heck it's hardly even logical. It's just simply some 90210 kids flying around, groping each other, kicking some Cylon butt.

Don't get me wrong, I like the TV show, but there's a reason people often compare it to "Dallas" of old ---> It's a soap-opera, albeit with explosions. It's fun to watch, suspensful, dramatic, crosses age/culture boundaries, etc, and while it has some intelligence in its plot twists and weird symbology, it is as shallow as a thin oil layer on an ocean when it comes to substance. Which is probably why is has such a diverse fan base.

Hope I didn't rock too many peoples' boats.


Hell is the drooling dream of a sadist --- Isaac Asimov

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Historians are only viable if, well, there are people to fill those roles.

Even if they did manage to write the tales of the Fleet down somewhere, do you seriously think that such documentation would stand the "test of time" without the intervention of caretakers?

Further, I did find the whole Cylon virus thing to be felgercarb. It was poorly handled, poorly written, and Lee was right to weaponize it. Further, I didn't buy the Old (Senile?) Man's passing the buck to Roslin one iota. It was just as absurd as Adama blaming himself for the Cylon attacks because of the "Valkyrie frakup".

Oh, and Helo should have gun shoved in his mouth and the trigger pulled. Don't worry about the brain matter, since we pretty much have evidence that his brain has been replaced by a big vacuole. :D

[ShadowEnigma]

Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to defend the old guy. I would have sent the virus back at them, and would have thrown Helo out the airlock for doing what he did.

There are caretakers for the history. Adama, Roslin, keep their history books well kept. I'm sure the news is storing up all of the reports they've done. History can stand the test of time even without people watching over it. Granted maybe only fragments here and there, but there will always be something there if you look hard enough.

[Seanathin]

I'll agree with Black Market good idea only poorly writen and to much emo Lee. Would have worked better as a strate investigation as they started it.

Messure of Salvation is kind of dumb but I don't hate it.

Hero is just a huge contanuity frak up and its dumb.

this well probably be unpopular but I really didn't like Unfinished Busness and the longer cut was even worse. I get whats important about it but I want to bash my brains in some times during all that lee/kara stuff. The standing and screeming to the sky is really lame. But I have to say I do really like the Adama Roslen stuff from New Caperica.

[ShadowEnigma]

this well probably be unpopular but I really didn't like Unfinished Busness and the longer cut was even worse. I get whats important about it but I want to bash my brains in some times during all that lee/kara stuff. The standing and screeming to the sky is really lame. But I have to say I do really like the Adama Roslen stuff from New Caperica.

I didn't feel like the extended cut really added anything. I think the episode was good in how it added some back story to New Caprica, and it was awesome to see Adama let Tyrol win. I think the whole boxing match gave the ship and crew some character and depth, to show them more then just at their posts day in and out. However, I do agree Lee and Kara are worse than a soap opera.

[JDS]

Definitely Hero followed very closely by A Measure of Salvation.

Black Market was general-purpose garbage but just can't compare to how bad those two episodes were.

Now...okay. I will admit that I'd rather watch Hero than the best episode of 99.9% of the other shows out there. But still, BSG is capable of such better stuff.

As for Helo...I've discussed this before, but yeah, I still think that he was only interesting stranded on Caprica. I don't want to watch him now that he's back onboard, he's irritating and pointless. However, all of that COULD have been made good if, when he went and admitted what he did to Adama, he hadn't backed down. If he had stood up and taken the blame for it, we could have had a good story line and finally made all of his frakups worth something. But...no. They'll sacrifice Billy for a crappy episode like Black Market (well okay, he wanted to leave and do some other inferior project, but whatever), and they'll throw away the entire Pegasus (a top ten character in and of herself), but Helo? Noooo...gotta keep Helo around, even if we're not really sure what he's good for these days...

[positron]

Alot of people disliked "Black Market"...hmmm I kinda liked that episode showing the seedy and dark side of the fleet. We've seen episodes with the poor people, the rich people and the prisoners, so what about the criminal element in this rag-tag society. I found it interesting.

[james968]

Colonial Day. (I was visitting my dad and tried to introduce him to BSG and Colonial Day was the episode showing. He'll never watch the series again).

Boxing Episode. (There had to be a better way to way to explain the Caprica backstory. Maybe even Dirk Bennedict claiming to be God and narrating the history..... but boxing? My flat-mate was like..."Are they still in space?")

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I liked "Unfinished Business"... Although I'll admit that I immensely prefer the aired version over the horrendously and badly edited extended version on the DVD. The unaired version dealt with the whole "love quadrangle" thing, which is why I really loathe it so much. It just showed the writers' ineptitude in trying to turn the show into "One Life to Live"... :mad:

[ShadowEnigma]

Alot of people disliked "Black Market"...hmmm I kinda liked that episode showing the seedy and dark side of the fleet. We've seen episodes with the poor people, the rich people and the prisoners, so what about the criminal element in this rag-tag society. I found it interesting.

Yeah! I definitely agree with this. If they had tweaked the writing a little bit for this episode it could have been really awesome. I do enjoy the premise of the episode, and what they were trying to do with the whole criminal aspect.

Boxing Episode. (There had to be a better way to way to explain the Caprica backstory. Maybe even Dirk Bennedict claiming to be God and narrating the history..... but boxing? My flat-mate was like..."Are they still in space?")

Boxing matches have historically always been apart of warships, at least in the US Navy. So for them to use that to get the frustrations/back story out in a way makes sense.

[alpha5099]

Black Market's an easy episode to hate, but I honestly do not. It is just ridiculous enough for me to love. I understand why lots of people hate it, but for me, I always chuckle when I think of "Lee's Noir Adventure."

Sacrifice is also fairly crappy. Fairly pointless episode, and a really lousy send off for one of my favorite characters, Billy.

However, it is in Season 3 that we get the handful of episodes I really loathe. Here, A Measure of Salvation, and A Day in the Life are all inexcusably bad. Not outright horrible, per se, but well below the standard quality of the rest of the series.

[Spike]

For me three worst episodes so far are:

3) "A Day in the Life" - boooring.

2) "Black Market" - do I need to explain?

1) "A Measure of Salvation" - a pile of concentrated nonsense. Stupid idea, badly written, moronic plot device, absurd characters' behaviour. Utter crap overall.

[Osprey]

fwiw, i can't put black market into the "worst" category, yeah it's not good, but it has some small value in both its study of lee & life in the fleet as part of the greater story arc.

day in the life, sacrifice, hero, and yeah, unfinished business -- those define the lower bound for me ...

[Claude]

this well probably be unpopular but I really didn't like Unfinished Busness and the longer cut was even worse. I get whats important about it but I want to bash my brains in some times during all that lee/kara stuff. The standing and screeming to the sky is really lame. But I have to say I do really like the Adama Roslen stuff from New Caperica.


I personnally hated it but kind of liked the extended version (I liked the Tigh/Trace relations in this one.) That makes me wonder: maybe I hated 'Unfinished Businesses' so much because it came after a series of fillers and it was really about time that the story evolves? (Which only began with Baltar's trial, a lot of episodes later.)

[UnRep]

Either Tigh Me up, Tigh Me Down or Black Market. I really can't pick between the two.

[JDS]

The Ties that Bind

Hero

A Measure of Salvation

[Lt.SharonAgathon]

Either Tigh Me up, Tigh Me Down or Black Market. I really can't pick between the two.

yes i totally agree.

tigh me up - who can stand ellen tigh

black market - random gang lord/prostitute/murder storyline

[Mishakal]

Six Degrees of Seperation

Just because I hate dangling threads and RDM has yet to tie up this HUGE thread in his story

[Neakal]

Looking at these answers, I couldn't help noticing something interesting.

Even episodes generally disliked still had a pretty good soundtrack. Granted the BSG soundtrack as a whole has been awesome but some of the songs I listen most frequently come from those "bad" episodes. The names of the songs I mention below are from the soundtracks.

"Wayward Soldier" from episode "Hero" for example has a really different tone that, in the course of the song (and with knowledge of the episode) actually tells you the story of Bulldog. And it has this really adventurous feel that I can't put my finger on but I like.

The episode "Unifinished Business" wasn't my least favourite but was one of those episodes I hardly felt like watching. Yet "Violence and Variations" which was featured in that episode is not only a beautiful orchestral music with different climaxes but also resembles the Opera House music from Season One without necessarily being the same song.

The song "Black Market" which was (obviously) featured in episode "Black Market" was briefly heard in a boombox when Lee enters Prometheus but faded when he met Phaelan or something. Not only I love the whole sitar-and-electro guitar combination, the overall feel of that particular song gives me the sense how that episode should have been. The dark side of the Fleet, that this is a filthy, f**ked up universe where grisly stuff happens all over, that all you can hope is to survive. And certainly without Lee's "Oh my Gods I just remembered that I left my pregnant girlfriend to be nuked" crisis.

Of course there are many other good episodes whose soundtracks I also enjoy but was curious if anyone noted such "redeeming" qualities in their least favourite episodes as well. Any thoughts?

[K07]

Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. I've only watched it once but have watched the rest of seasons 1 and 2.0 three or four times now. It's a comedy that I don't find funny....

Season 2.5 and 3 have their fill of stinkers:

Resurrection Ship was a letdown, though definitely not bad but I just have to express my disappointment in Pegasus' resolution. I don't skip them when rewatching the show.

Black Market, Hero, Measure of Salvation, A Day in the Life, Woman King, and the extended Unfinished Business are all ones I will skip when rewatching the show. I didn't mind the aired Unfinished Business. I felt the editing was tighter and the montage of Kara/Lee moments of the show was a highlight for me.

I'm not really digging season 4 yet. Seasons 1, 2, and 3 had so much stronger starts. The last episode, as much as I hated to see one of my favorite characters die, shows this season still has potential.

[LSOP]

Black Market

[pagad]

Stirring things up a bit here, but *deep breath* I intensely disliked Occupation, Precipice, Exodus Parts 1 and 2. The Iraq war allegory felt shoehorned and the whole thing felt pretty badly done. The Cylons have all of humanity in their toaster slots! HELLO! One nuke from a basestar and it'd all be over. And I find the "meh, mistakes were made, you're our slaves now" change in attitude was just a dodgy plot device.

In fact I wish they hadn't settled on New Caprica in the first place. The show's called Battlestar Galactica, and as such should focus on the fleet.

Plus they killed Pegasus. I don't care that it was probably inevitable, and she was stealing Galactica's limelight, and that attitude contradicts what I've said above.. It was a Beast of a ship.

[ShadowEnigma]

The Cylons were trying to take a new approach. We know how C-Six and her gang feels about the humans, maybe she was hoping by doing this that she could foster better relations with the colonials. It didn't seem odd to me that they tried such a thing.

Settling on New Caprica was kind of suckie, but it doesn't surprise me. It follows people's patterns. They wanted something new, and Baltar sold it as a great new idea for the fleet. The fact he got elected because of it didn't surprise me, I think if you put real people in a similar situation they'd jump for it too. The fleet sucks, people are cramped up, but look! A pretty fresh air planet, just elect me and we can be there.

Yeah, killing Pegasus did suck, especially because there was no reason for Lee to ram it into the Basestar like that, but oh well. Galactica needed her limelight and her 'alone' kind of thing back. It was nice to see another Battlestar for a bit though.

[Stairway]

Escape Velocity - I really can't stand Baltar's religious role and the episode doesn't have a plot at all. Something I think season four lacks is episodes with a story, like they had in previous seasons. Now it's just one long story and that doesn't give us time to breathe. It's picking up though, Faith was really good (despite the name).

[genji2000]

yes i totally agree.

tigh me up - who can stand ellen tigh

black market - random gang lord/prostitute/murder storyline

Black Market by a mile. Its all that's bad in sci-fi - a plot that could have come from some bad 70s detective show, transposed to a futuristic/space setting in the hope that the snazzy environment will make up for the dull story line. Yes it served to reveal the nefarious activities of Tom Zarek, but it was dull to watch. Scar was rescued only by a Raider with attitude and Sacrifice was equally unnecessary, except to serve as a vehicle for killing off Billy. That three-episode period was the worst in the entire show IMO. I also think the single-episode story arcs in Season Three were vastly superior.

In contrast...

Stirring things up a bit here, but *deep breath* I intensely disliked Occupation, Precipice, Exodus Parts 1 and 2. The Iraq war allegory felt shoehorned and the whole thing felt pretty badly done. The Cylons have all of humanity in their toaster slots! HELLO! One nuke from a basestar and it'd all be over. And I find the "meh, mistakes were made, you're our slaves now" change in attitude was just a dodgy plot device.

In fact I wish they hadn't settled on New Caprica in the first place. The show's called Battlestar Galactica, and as such should focus on the fleet.

Plus they killed Pegasus. I don't care that it was probably inevitable, and she was stealing Galactica's limelight, and that attitude contradicts what I've said above.. It was a Beast of a ship.

The New Caprica story arc was tough to watch - bleak, hopeless, nasty - but I totally disagree with your interpretation of its function. This came after the resurrected Caprica Six and Boomer had spread the word of love/god amongst the Cylons. It occurred at a time when the Twos, Sixes and Eights had garnered massive support and the Cylons were questioning whether the attacks on the colonies and the subsequent hunting of the remaining vestiges of mankind were not, in fact, mistakes. It wasn't a dodgy plot device - it was a necessary paradigm shift that laid the ground for the Cylon civil war. My reading of New Caprica (go on... tell me an RDM podcast denies this) is that it shows the Cylons attempting to live 'together' with mankind. Their only option to achieve that is to subjugate the humans but that's just Cylon nature for you. They didn't want to nuke the place. They were trying something different. The occupation of New Caprica owed as much to Vichy Paris as Baghdad, and I thought it worked extremely well.

That they settled on New Caprica in the first place was completely believable a) because the humans were so tired of running and b) because that was what won Baltar the election, as ShadowEnigma points out.

You're right about it being called Battlestar Galactica and what that means. They did need to get off New Caprica and back into the Galactica. For me, this happened in a believable time frame (and I also thought the way the crew slowly, gradually reintegrated over the course of many episodes was handled magnificently in Season Three - no quick end-of-episode "well here we all are again then").

It is (as you say) called Battlestar Galactica and that's also why the Pegasus had to go.

In my opinion.

[Martyr of the Cause]

I'm highly indulgent of the tangents and filler episodes of Battlestar. I watch every replay I can, and have watched the first 2 seasons 2-3 times now again on DVD. There are some episodes of filler stuff, but even then I like them for their character development and what they bring to the series. I like seeing things like, yes, the black market being fleshed out (I really enjoyed Black Market, though I do understand where people are coming from with their criticism of it).

All this said, the single episode I started to get really bored with is: The Road Less Travelled. It had some good parts, but I got pretty bored on my second viewing. The interesting plot about the Demetrius moved too slow, and built up to an ending I already knew what happening from the previews, and the Baltar plot was way too dragged out, pointless, and slow. That episode officially drove my patience for seeing main story development of Baltar's Sex Cult from my system -- I count myself fortunate that after that I haven't had to see Baltar's cult as the main story. His cult has developed as much on-screen as I can stand to watch, though again I can deal with more of how everyone else reacts to the cult and message.


So, obviously this is an oddball one to have a grudge against, but it's how I felt. The Road Less Travelled just wasn't strong enough of an episode in my book. If the trailer hadn't blown the (admittedly predictable) climax, and I didn't have to suck down such excessive Baltar screen-time, I'd have felt better about that one.

It surely didn't help that the episode was missing Adama, Apollo, Roslin, and Six. Fleshing out the story of what was happening to any one of them in place of at least 10 minutes of Baltar Cult would have done a lot for me.

[Stairway]

So, obviously this is an oddball one to have a grudge against, but it's how I felt. The Road Less Travelled just wasn't strong enough of an episode in my book. If the trailer hadn't blown the (admittedly predictable) climax, and I didn't have to suck down such excessive Baltar screen-time, I'd have felt better about that one.

It surely didn't help that the episode was missing Adama, Apollo, Roslin, and Six. Fleshing out the story of what was happening to any one of them in place of at least 10 minutes of Baltar Cult would have done a lot for me.

I'm with you on that one. I really miss Lee in season four, it's like they've decided to just leave him in the background.

Maybe he oughta run for president?

[pagad]

Black Market by a mile. Its all that's bad in sci-fi - a plot that could have come from some bad 70s detective show, transposed to a futuristic/space setting in the hope that the snazzy environment will make up for the dull story line. Yes it served to reveal the nefarious activities of Tom Zarek, but it was dull to watch. Scar was rescued only by a Raider with attitude and Sacrifice was equally unnecessary, except to serve as a vehicle for killing off Billy. That three-episode period was the worst in the entire show IMO. I also think the single-episode story arcs in Season Three were vastly superior.

In contrast...



The New Caprica story arc was tough to watch - bleak, hopeless, nasty - but I totally disagree with your interpretation of its function. This came after the resurrected Caprica Six and Boomer had spread the word of love/god amongst the Cylons. It occurred at a time when the Twos, Sixes and Eights had garnered massive support and the Cylons were questioning whether the attacks on the colonies and the subsequent hunting of the remaining vestiges of mankind were not, in fact, mistakes. It wasn't a dodgy plot device - it was a necessary paradigm shift that laid the ground for the Cylon civil war. My reading of New Caprica (go on... tell me an RDM podcast denies this) is that it shows the Cylons attempting to live 'together' with mankind. Their only option to achieve that is to subjugate the humans but that's just Cylon nature for you. They didn't want to nuke the place. They were trying something different. The occupation of New Caprica owed as much to Vichy Paris as Baghdad, and I thought it worked extremely well.

That they settled on New Caprica in the first place was completely believable a) because the humans were so tired of running and b) because that was what won Baltar the election, as ShadowEnigma points out.

You're right about it being called Battlestar Galactica and what that means. They did need to get off New Caprica and back into the Galactica. For me, this happened in a believable time frame (and I also thought the way the crew slowly, gradually reintegrated over the course of many episodes was handled magnificently in Season Three - no quick end-of-episode "well here we all are again then").

It is (as you say) called Battlestar Galactica and that's also why the Pegasus had to go.

In my opinion.

It wasn't a good argument on my part. I don't think I explained what I felt very well.

I'll re-explain it when it isn't late at night and I don't have to get up early :)

[redwards95]

"Sine qua non" would definitely be high up on my list of least favorite episodes.

[genji2000]

"Sine qua non" would definitely be high up on my list of least favorite episodes.

It does seem to be a weak episode at the moment, but I'll reserve judgement until after The Hub. I think (hope) that taken together the two episodes will work very well.

[Stairway]

It does seem to be a weak episode at the moment, but I'll reserve judgement until after The Hub. I think (hope) that taken together the two episodes will work very well.


Oh no, I loved every second of it! Season four is picking up! :)

[ouiouiwewe]

The Ties that Bind

Hero

A Measure of Salvation
By the way, seems like JDS has quit BSG after Cally's well-deserved death.

[genji2000]

By the way, seems like JDS has quit BSG after Cally's well-deserved death.

He'll be missed more than she will.

[ouiouiwewe]

The moment Cally leaves Galactica, JDS leaves Galactica. Such a symmetry.

[_VARGR_]

Worst episode..... HERO. There are other episodes i just can't watch due to being rubbish like The Woman King and Black Market, But Hero several times has a number of continuty errors over the years that Bulldog was shot down. IF they cut every scene out of it that said it was 3 years before it happened it would be a much better episode and peopl would enjoy it more. A really lazy stupid mistake on the writers part.

Id put Razor up high in this as well as they could have made many things in it better such as Gina being discovered as a cylon, and many cgi errors like pegasus being partly invisible (lol). But at least they had an excuse for razor's script (the writers strike being on at that time).

[Starstruck]

Black Market. It was the only episode I skipped over when reviewing the old episodes.

[genji2000]

Black Market. It was the only episode I skipped over when reviewing the old episodes.

I'm rewatching the whole thing with my son on his first viewing, so I don't have that luxury. We're up to S02E03. He's very into it.

[Starstruck]

The moment Cally leaves Galactica, JDS leaves Galactica. Such a symmetry.

I miss JDS. Sardonic wit is under-rated.

[Michael]

Black Market, or Hero.

Black Market because it really sucks as a story thread, and also fails as a stand alone episode

Hero because it made no lasting plot changes; it was all filler.

[michaels]

Hero - The continuity errors, and the silliness of the whole plot. I also thought they got cheap drama out of the fact of Adama's guilt over thinking he started the war. It's pretty obvious that he (personally) didn't, and that the writers wanted to have it both ways. They wanted the drama of him showing remorse, while the audience knows the soruce of his remorse is unfounded. It would have been far more interesting had it turned out that he really had started the war.

Sine Qua Non - The characters seemed to lose their substance and become nothing more than pieces to move on a board. The way Lee becomes president, Zarek stepping aside without a peep, the whole Romo/dead cat affair....ick.

A Measure of Salvation - Not so much for what Helo did, so much as for the reaction to it. At the very least, he should have been given a permanent home in the brig.

I'm not too bothered by some of the usual suspects (Black Market, Woman King), but I do tend to skip them.

Michael

[Xenon242]

I'm rewatching the whole thing with my son on his first viewing, so I don't have that luxury. We're up to S02E03. He's very into it.

Oh dear. I'm sorry you had to go through the torture of seeing Black Market again. I saw it twice, two times too many.

[genji2000]

Oh dear. I'm sorry you had to go through the torture of seeing Black Market again. I saw it twice, two times too many.

We'll have it again before much longer if this co-ordinated re-watch comes off.

Joy.

[Xenon242]

/wrists

You know what really burns me about that episode, is the treatment of Lee's character. Never mind the notion of the Black Market and everything around that, it was really that plucked-from-thin-air angle that simply didn't fit his character's framework and really had no context. In fact, I wasn't keen on the characterisation in the previous episode because I just didn't really know where it all came from.

[Aphrodite]

I also think Black Market is my least farourite episode, even though it has Richard Hatch in it.

The music is one of the best in the series however.

[genji2000]

On the plus side we're about to hit Maelstrom and will hopefully manage Crossroads this weekend. He's a big Kara fan so the whole sequence should blow him away.

[Gort]

I'm still going through the episodes via the boxset I've ordered and have got to Precipice, so haven't seen all of season three yet. I haven't really seen an episode that has bored me yet. OK, some are way better than others, but none have disappointed me. Can't really think of a worst episode, but maybe I'll find one when I finish watching season three.

I personally have no problem with Black Market or the charactisation of Lee in it (why wouldn't Lee use a prostitute, what's so "pure" about him?). In fact, I was wondering why the episode got such a slamming when I watched it. Not my favourite, but I thought it put forward a situation that would naturally occur amongst a population nearing 50,000 and dealt with it well enough.

Been watching the first few episodes of season three, and have to say that I'm finding them very gripping. Occupation and Precipice have been edge of the seat stuff... at least for me.

[genji2000]

(why wouldn't Lee use a prostitute, what's so "pure" about him?)

He doesn't use her. That's the problem. He wants to play happy families with her. He wants her to be something she's not. He isn't facing reality, which would be fine if he was that kind of a mess of angst and self-loathing but he isn't.

[Gort]

He doesn't use her. That's the problem. He wants to play happy families with her. He wants her to be something she's not. He isn't facing reality, which would be fine if he was that kind of a mess of angst and self-loathing but he isn't.

Interesting point. I might have got the wrong end of the stick about why some didn't like his interaction with a prostitute. However, many of those who do use prostitutes can end up having illusions about the "relationship". It sort of helps cope with any guilt factors (personal and any guilt towards "using" the prostitute).

[genji2000]

Interesting point. I might have got the wrong end of the stick about why some didn't like his interaction with a prostitute. However, many of those who do use prostitutes can end up having illusions about the "relationship". It sort of helps cope with any guilt factors.

Personal experience? :lol:

Sorry. Had to ask.

[Gort]

Personal experience? :lol:

Sorry. Had to ask.

Knew that was going to be asked. :D Not personally, but I do know people who have tried to justify their need for such services. Anyway, it's basic psychology, so not a secret.

[Jason1975]

He doesn't use her. That's the problem. He wants to play happy families with her. He wants her to be something she's not. He isn't facing reality, which would be fine if he was that kind of a mess of angst and self-loathing but he isn't.

I do agree that Lee wanted to play happy family. Do not forget that his ex-girlfriend was pregnant when the 12 colonies were attacked. He feels guilty how it ended with his ex-girlfriend and him. He used the prostitute to try to make him feel better. That is how I see it.

[genji2000]

I've never utilised the services of a prostitute but if I did I would assume it was just like an elaborate wank, so where's the guilt in that? Lee's problem in Black Market is that he can't enjoy a good wank and has to dress it up in 'relationship' and 'love' to make it happen. This from the guy who flies his Viper into a dark, unknown tunnel and obliterates the womb of the Cylon tylium factory? Doesn't wash.

[Jason1975]

I've never utilised the services of a prostitute but if I did I would assume it was just like an elaborate wank, so where's the guilt in that? Lee's problem in Black Market is that he can't enjoy a good wank and has to dress it up in 'relationship' and 'love' to make it happen. This from the guy who flies his Viper into a dark, unknown tunnel and obliterates the womb of the Cylon tylium factory? Doesn't wash.

The guilt is not about the prostitute. The guilt comes from what happened before the colonies fell. Lee got his girlfriend pregnant before the 12 colonies fell. However, He messed things up because of his insecurities. That is why he his feeling guilty. It has nothing to do with the prostitute.

[genji2000]

The guilt is not about the prostitute. The guilt comes from what happened before the colonies fell. Lee got his girlfriend pregnant before the 12 colonies fell. However, He messed things up because of his insecurities. That is why he his feeling guilty. It has nothing to do with the prostitute.

This is the guilt I was referring to:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=20003&postcount=77

[Jason1975]

This is the guilt I was referring to:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=20003&postcount=77


Thank you for the clarification. :thumbsup:

[genji2000]

Thank you for the clarification. :thumbsup:

I agree that getting your girlfriend pregnant and then dumping her might make you feel guilty... unless she totally shagged someone else on New Year's Eve and the baby was never yours, as proven four years later by DNA test, and you always knew it.

[Xenon242]

That's what I'm saying about this personality element coming out of no-where. Up until Black Market, we had no idea about Lee's ex-girlfriend, so why start now? This is what made the episode bad; it was introducing a new element into the character without any sort of lead-up or even clue and expecting it to work. Jamie Bamber must have had a Hell of time with it.

[genji2000]

That's what I'm saying about this personality element coming out of no-where. Up until Black Market, we had no idea about Lee's ex-girlfriend, so why start now? This is what made the episode bad; it was introducing a new element into the character without any sort of lead-up or even clue and expecting it to work. Jamie Bamber must have had a Hell of time with it.

Yeah but JamBam can handle anything that's thrown at him. He has English fortitude coupled with American 'go out and get 'em, son'.

[Gort]

This is the guilt I was referring to:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=20003&postcount=77

If Lee was such a simplistic character, then I'd agree that he'd not feel guilty using the services of a prostitute, even though he's willing to blow the heck out of the "womb" of the Cylon mines. However, people, including Lee, are complex animals, with emotions on different levels. Of course he could feel guilty about the prostitute and the using of one. Lee comes off as someone who worries too much about doing the right thing, being nice to everyone, even though he's willing to be ruthless to some degree and has flaws in his character.

As mentioned, he was using the prostitute as a means to relive his previous life on Caprica with his previous girlfriend, who he ran from. He was using the prostitute, in some ways, to relieve himself of his guilt. He thought he had built up a relationship beyond a mere "wank", to one that's more familial.

Even if that wasn't the case, many people feel guilty about using a prostitute, feeling that they're not only degrading themselves, but that of the prostitute as well. It might not be genuine, but not everyone who uses a prostitute sees it merely as a step up from a "wank". Deluded, maybe... probably.

As for bringing up something new into his character, I don't really think season two is too late to introduce something fresh (which, let's face it, didn't negate his previous character). I don't really see why such a detail can't seamlessly be introduced. Now, if Lee started to act like Admiral Cain...

[genji2000]

If Lee was such a simplistic character, then I'd agree that he'd not feel guilty using the services of a prostitute, even though he's willing to blow the heck out of the "womb" of the Cylon mines. However, people, including Lee, are complex animals, with emotions on different levels. Of course he could feel guilty about the prostitute and the using of one. Lee comes off as someone who worries too much about doing the right thing, being nice to everyone, even though he's willing to be ruthless to some degree and has flaws in his character.

As mentioned, he was using the prostitute as a means to relive his previous life on Caprica with his previous girlfriend, who he ran from. He was using the prostitute, in some ways, to relieve himself of his guilt. He thought he had built up a relationship beyond a mere "wank", to one that's more familial.

Even if that wasn't the case, many people feel guilty about using a prostitute, feeling that they're not only degrading themselves, but that of the prostitute as well. It might not be genuine, but not everyone who uses a prostitute sees it merely as a step up from a "wank". Deluded, maybe... probably.

I bow to your superior knowledge of prostitutes.

No I'm kidding. I'm not sure I want to get into a discussion about how guilty Lee feels when he's feeling himself up, but you make valid points out of my flippant remarks. I just feel that this complicated sexual notion of Lee came out of nowhere... maybe we can justify it in terms of his complicated sexual feelings regarding Kara, but something in Black Market doesn't gel. Where does that ex-girlfriend come from? Why is she so important in this episode and then is never referenced again? Because he puts her to bed (so to speak) in this episode? The same with child prostitution. It raises its ugly head in this episode but is never referred to again. In terms of the main (chiefly Lee) characters, intense situations arise in this episode and are never brought up again.

Maybe at the appropriate juncture, in the fullness of time, we'll appreciate this episode as a masterpiece, but at the moment many many people dislike it.

[pagad]

Now, if Lee started to act like Admiral Cain...

If he'd started to act like Admiral Cain he wouldn't have lost the Pegasus.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[Xenon242]

If Lee was such a simplistic character, then I'd agree that he'd not feel guilty using the services of a prostitute, even though he's willing to blow the heck out of the "womb" of the Cylon mines. However, people, including Lee, are complex animals, with emotions on different levels. Of course he could feel guilty about the prostitute and the using of one. Lee comes off as someone who worries too much about doing the right thing, being nice to everyone, even though he's willing to be ruthless to some degree and has flaws in his character.

As mentioned, he was using the prostitute as a means to relive his previous life on Caprica with his previous girlfriend, who he ran from. He was using the prostitute, in some ways, to relieve himself of his guilt. He thought he had built up a relationship beyond a mere "wank", to one that's more familial.

Even if that wasn't the case, many people feel guilty about using a prostitute, feeling that they're not only degrading themselves, but that of the prostitute as well. It might not be genuine, but not everyone who uses a prostitute sees it merely as a step up from a "wank". Deluded, maybe... probably.

As for bringing up something new into his character, I don't really think season two is too late to introduce something fresh (which, let's face it, didn't negate his previous character). I don't really see why such a detail can't seamlessly be introduced. Now, if Lee started to act like Admiral Cain...

It's not that Lee is a simplistic character. In fact, his evolution throughout the run of the series a whole has proven that, and the new complexities of his character that we discover have, for the most part, been very well handled.

The real issue with the prostitute isn't that he visited one; I think it's pretty much a given that in the circumstances the human race found itself in, people would be going out and doing this sort of thing and I would be frankly surprised that he wouldn't.

The problem lies in how the idea was executed. With most of the characters in BSG, we got some pretty key character insights very early on: Kara's insubordination, Tigh's marital problems, et cetera. But, where did this business with Lee come from? What indication did we have prior to this episode that he felt any sort of guilt about something that didn't have to do with his dad or his brother?

I'm certainly not implying that he shouldn't have any. On the contrary, this is the sort of stuff that really enriches a character. But, we didn't have any knowledge of this aspect of the character's life before Black Market, so there wasn't much of a compelling need on the part of the audience to sympathise with what he was going through. Had we known about this pregnant girl on Caprica from the mini, then we would have been much, much more inclined to say, 'Oh, Lee, Lee, Lee. Don't do it, mate, it's not worth it.'

As it stood, the whole concept as executed came off as trite in the extreme, and didn't enrich the character of Lee Adama in the slightest.

[genji2000]

If he'd started to act like Admiral Cain he wouldn't have lost the Pegasus.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

He didn't lose it. He knew exactly where it was.

[Xenon242]

If he'd started to act like Admiral Cain he wouldn't have lost the Pegasus.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

You are really, really bitter, aren't you? :p

[genji2000]

You are really, really bitter, aren't you? :p

He loves the Pegasus. What can you do?

[pagad]

He didn't lose it. He knew exactly where it was.

Har har.

I personally have no problem with Black Market or the charactisation of Lee in it (why wouldn't Lee use a prostitute, what's so "pure" about him?). In fact, I was wondering why the episode got such a slamming when I watched it. Not my favourite, but I thought it put forward a situation that would naturally occur amongst a population nearing 50,000 and dealt with it well enough.

This has probably been said before, but that episode really didn't gel at all. It had a great premise - exploring the dark underbelly of the fleet - but used too many stereotypes and the execution was poor. Fisk's death was a little dubious, to say the least, and Lee's prostitute girlfriend was really clumsily hammered in. The best that can be said for it is that the actors made the best of a bad job.

Oh, and Bear McCreary's "Black Market" track is really, really good.

[genji2000]

Har har.

Why invent a new snipe when you can use an old hackneyed one?

This has probably been said before, but that episode really didn't gel at all. It had a great premise - exploring the dark underbelly of the fleet - but used too many stereotypes and the execution was poor. Fisk's death was a little dubious, to say the least, and Lee's prostitute girlfriend was really clumsily hammered in. The best that can be said for it is that the actors made the best of a bad job.

The bold bit is the main point. It was just some old 70s cop show in space. I wish I'd thought of that instead of going on about Lee having a wank.

Oh, and Bear McCreary's "Black Market" track is really, really good.

I'm going to have to watch it again now. I dislike it so much I've ignored the soundtrack every time I watch it.

[pagad]

NO GENJI DON'T DO IT

I've found it on YouTube!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YD8BDwErzR0

You are really, really bitter, aren't you? :p

You have no idea. The Pegasus was no mere ship, it was a character ;_;

[pagad]

"Video no longer available".

You didn't find my special "Lee" video did you?

Ah, bum.

This one works. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_HrINUamAwQ&feature=related)

Damned copyright hounds.

Edit: Where the hell did your post go?!

[Gort]

I bow to your superior knowledge of prostitutes.

Shh... don't tell my wife. :blush:

No I'm kidding.

Whew! ;)

I'm not sure I want to get into a discussion about how guilty Lee feels when he's feeling himself up, but you make valid points out of my flippant remarks. I just feel that this complicated sexual notion of Lee came out of nowhere... maybe we can justify it in terms of his complicated sexual feelings regarding Kara, but something in Black Market doesn't gel. Where does that ex-girlfriend come from? Why is she so important in this episode and then is never referenced again? Because he puts her to bed (so to speak) in this episode? The same with child prostitution. It raises its ugly head in this episode but is never referred to again. In terms of the main (chiefly Lee) characters, intense situations arise in this episode and are never brought up again.

Yes, you also make some valid points. Mind you, is it the fault of Black Market that the themes introduced into the show weren't explored in later episodes?

Maybe at the appropriate juncture, in the fullness of time, we'll appreciate this episode as a masterpiece, but at the moment many many people dislike it.

No, I don't consider Black Market as a masterpiece, just feel that it's maligned a bit too much. Not my favourite, but I don't dislike it, either.

Now to find how much is in my wallet. I might be a while... ;)

[Zalmoxis]

No, I don't consider Black Market as a masterpiece, just feel that it's maligned a bit too much. Not my favourite, but I don't dislike it, either.

Very good point, i agree with you.

[Gort]

It's not that Lee is a simplistic character. In fact, his evolution throughout the run of the series a whole has proven that, and the new complexities of his character that we discover have, for the most part, been very well handled.

The real issue with the prostitute isn't that he visited one; I think it's pretty much a given that in the circumstances the human race found itself in, people would be going out and doing this sort of thing and I would be frankly surprised that he wouldn't.

The problem lies in how the idea was executed. With most of the characters in BSG, we got some pretty key character insights very early on: Kara's insubordination, Tigh's marital problems, et cetera. But, where did this business with Lee come from? What indication did we have prior to this episode that he felt any sort of guilt about something that didn't have to do with his dad or his brother?

I'm certainly not implying that he shouldn't have any. On the contrary, this is the sort of stuff that really enriches a character. But, we didn't have any knowledge of this aspect of the character's life before Black Market, so there wasn't much of a compelling need on the part of the audience to sympathise with what he was going through. Had we known about this pregnant girl on Caprica from the mini, then we would have been much, much more inclined to say, 'Oh, Lee, Lee, Lee. Don't do it, mate, it's not worth it.'

As it stood, the whole concept as executed came off as trite in the extreme, and didn't enrich the character of Lee Adama in the slightest.

I see where you're coming from, but I still don't see that much of a problem, if even there is one, with the way it was introduced. Sure, it might well have been better if Lee's immature run from his then girlfriend had of been introduced earlier, like in the mini-series, as well as his later foibles with a prostitute or two, but I don't see it as that much of a problem that it was introduced in season two (still early into the show... it's not as if this has come about in season three or four).

Anyway, maybe this is straying a bit too off-topic... and my defending Black Market is making it as if it's my favourite episode ever. Move over, Pegasus. :D

[Xenon242]

Sure, it might well have been better if Lee's immature run from his then girlfriend had of been introduced earlier, like in the mini-series, as well as his later foibles with a prostitute or two, but I don't see it as that much of a problem that it was introduced in season two.

Fair enough. Though now that I think of it, I kind of which the pregnant ex-girlfriend thing had been introduced as early as the mini. Lee seemed a bit two-dimensional in the beginning, and it would have helped round his character out a bit from the start.

[Seanathin]

I used to think that Black Market was my least favorate episode, but I have a new one. Sine Qua Non, the plot point at the end you see coming a mile away, what they do with Romo is really strange, and dumb. And Michale Taylor's writing as clunky as normal.

[Jeff O'Connor]

I thought the script in Sine Qua Non was fairly crisp and concise, and had more depth than even BSG sometimes pulls. I think in a few years when BSG is long past finished and even Caprica is or has wrapped up, one way or another, we'll all look back at SQN as one of the ultimate examples of fans being polarized on one side or the other. People tend to either hate it or love it more often than not, anywhere I've gone on the 'net since its airing.

Me, I like it. The 'revelation' we all knew was going to happen, but apart from that I thought it was a fine ep.

[genji2000]

I thought the script in Sine Qua Non was fairly crisp and concise, and had more depth than even BSG sometimes pulls. I think in a few years when BSG is long past finished and even Caprica is or has wrapped up, one way or another, we'll all look back at SQN as one of the ultimate examples of fans being polarized on one side or the other. People tend to either hate it or love it more often than not, anywhere I've gone on the 'net since its airing.

Me, I like it. The 'revelation' we all knew was going to happen, but apart from that I thought it was a fine ep.

I'm surprised at your opinion. On this forum I haven't ever got the impression that anyone outright hates it. I think there was some perturbation over the editing, and that a small number of people interpreted this as writing issues. Some of us felt that it and The Hub were originally intended to play intercut and hence a lot of the development in each episode felt rushed and unconvincing as each episode took scenes out of the other to make two exclusive episodes. I personally felt they were both flawed but both excellent.

[pagad]

To be honest, I thought both were well executed considering the editing restraints, even though I liked SQN better than The Hub. They would both have been better if BSG's future production wasn't in question, which it was, and I think the writers did a good job considering. They had to cram a lot of plot development into the space of a few episodes, and it could have been much worse.

[genji2000]

To be honest, I thought both were well executed considering the editing restraints, even though I liked SQN better than The Hub. They would both have been better if BSG's future production wasn't in question, which it was, and I think the writers did a good job considering. They had to cram a lot of plot development into the space of a few episodes, and it could have been much worse.

That's an interesting point, pagad. Do you think if there were no doubts about resuming production following the writers' strike that an earlier event would have served as the mid-season cliffhanger - maybe the Hybrid being plugged back in and shouting "Jump!", or Adama alone in a Raptor awaiting the return of the Basestar?

[pagad]

Well, the very next episode - the first episode of the second half, Sometimes A Great Notion - was slated to be the final episode of BSG should the excrement hit the cooling device over the Writer's Strike. It would probably have aired right after (that is to say, the week after) Revelations if the remaining unfilmed episodes were cancelled. So they absolutely had to get to a point where they could wrap up the story if need be.

[genji2000]

Well, the very next episode - the first episode of the second half, Sometimes A Great Notion - was slated to be the final episode of BSG should the excrement hit the cooling device over the Writer's Strike. It would probably have aired right after Revelations if the remaining unfilmed episodes were cancelled. So they absolutely had to get to a point where they could wrap up the story if need be.

I think there's still some confusion over which was the optional final episode. Katee Sackhoff made the point, but I think it's been interpreted as Razor being included in the 'eleven' episodes, so Revelations and the discovery of Earth was potentially what she was referring to.

In truth though, I'm not convinced there was ever any real doubt (amongst TPTB) that they would be back after the strike (doubtless someone can point out a reference that convinces me!). Maybe I read it somewhere, but I think it was in the Revelations podcast that this 'doubt' was spread amongst the cast by EJO to gee them up for the celebrations over finding Earth, and the utter despair at finding it in the state they did, in order to get a real 'this is the end of the line' performance out of them.

However, what I mean is if there had not been a writers' strike, and they hadn't had to cram so much into the last few episodes of 4.0 (hence the discovery of Earth would have occurred sometime in early 4.5), what would have made a good mid-season cliffhanger?

[pagad]

I think there's still some confusion over which was the optional final episode. Katee Sackhoff made the point, but I think it's been interpreted as Razor being included in the 'eleven' episodes, so Revelations and the discovery of Earth was potentially what she was referring to.

In truth though, I'm not convinced there was ever any real doubt (amongst TPTB) that they would be back after the strike (doubtless someone can point out a reference that convinces me!). Maybe I read it somewhere, but I think it was in the Revelations podcast that this 'doubt' was spread amongst the cast by EJO to gee them up for the celebrations over finding Earth, and the utter despair at finding it in the state they did, in order to get a real 'this is the end of the line' performance out of them.

However, what I mean is if there had not been a writers' strike, and they hadn't had to cram so much into the last few episodes of 4.0 (hence the discovery of Earth would have occurred sometime in early 4.5), what would have made a good mid-season cliffhanger?

Ah, I see. Interesting.

If the strike had not occurred would there even be a mid-season cliffhanger?

[genji2000]

Ah, I see. Interesting.

If the strike had not occurred would there even be a mid-season cliffhanger?

Yes, they always have a mid-season break.

[pagad]

Oh right, ok. S4's the only season that I've actually watched on the TV, or that was ongoing while I was watching.

In that case, I think they probably would have delayed finding Earth until after the break...possibly ending the first half with the battle at the Hub, which would more likely be more extended and dramatic.

[Bluce_Ree]

3.5 or 3.6 or 3.7 probably. I can't remember. I got sleepy.

3.4 was ace. So ace in fact that I was jumping around like a child at Xmas but was even more annoying than that might suggest.

I expected 3.5 to be a bit chill but by the time there was that Chief/Cally/Atmosphere leak episode, I stopped caring. Or at least I was telling myself that.

I couldn't put up with Kara doing her Drew Barrymore impression anymore, or Helo doing his Michael Barrymore impression anymore, or anything. Also these were the pre-KING OF ALL THE COSMOS Saul Tigh days (although he was showing signs of epic greatness).

In hindsight, it was still probably ace. I just wanted everything after 3.4 to be amazing, and instead it was just very good.

Until the last episode of season 3. Where I literally came oil.

Season 4 has literally been full girthiness though. Although they should rename it to Battlestar Tigh now.

[pagad]

After re-watching the miniseries I'm re-flabbergasted at just how good it still is. Still superior to any given episode of the series, actually.

[genji2000]

After re-watching the miniseries I'm re-flabbergasted at just how good it still is. Still superior to any given episode of the series, actually.

There is something missing in the Miniseries in terms of the religious aspects that have become so important in the show. Religion was there, but only to flesh out colonial society, I think, and maybe as a nod to TOS.

But you are so right. I watched it last week and I said it really still stands up. Of everything we've been through with these characters over four seasons, there wasn't a great deal of characterisation that wasn't already fleshed out. It's amazing how the actors 'got' the characters so early in a show.

And to maintain the tension for that long, not pulling any punches, was really good. That bit where the FTL-equipped ships have to jump and leave the sub-lights vessels behind, including the little girl on the botanic ship... it really didn't pull any punches.

[Xenon242]

There is something missing in the Miniseries in terms of the religious aspects that have become so important in the show. Religion was there, but only to flesh out colonial society, I think, and maybe as a nod to TOS.

But you are so right. I watched it last week and I said it really still stands up. Of everything we've been through with these characters over four seasons, there wasn't a great deal of characterisation that wasn't already fleshed out. It's amazing how the actors 'got' the characters so early in a show.

And to maintain the tension for that long, not pulling any punches, was really good. That bit where the FTL-equipped ships have to jump and leave the sub-lights vessels behind, including the little girl on the botanic ship... it really didn't pull any punches.

The radio chatter heard on Colonial One leading up to the jump was creepy, too. It wasn't overly loud, but just enough to turn the viewer's screws a bit.

[Seanathin]

They have said that season 4 was planed for the get go as a single story so I get the feeling that finding Earth as the mid season cliffhanger was always the plan. Because not only is is a great what the frak moment, but its also the one event that would catch us all off guard so much, and leaves everybody conused as to what is going to happon in 4.5. Where as much of the plot of 4.0 was easy to map out almost from the start of the season. But now thanks to Earth everything has been thrown into confution.

So I see the need for how SQN and the Hub were put toghter and what they had to move through plot wise, I just thought that some of the extra stuff that was put in really muddied the plot waters, such as Romo's crap.

[pagad]

I think they could have "cut the crap" regarding the earlier episodes of the season, if I'm honest. They matched Season 3 for quality and that's not a compliment.

[genji2000]

I think they could have "cut the crap" regarding the earlier episodes of the season, if I'm honest. They matched Season 3 for quality and that's not a compliment.

Hero rules.

[pagad]

Thing is, I don't know if you're being genuine, sarcastic, or baiting. :D

[genji2000]

Thing is, I don't know if you're being genuine, sarcastic, or baiting. :D

Thing is, all three simultaneously and at the same time. Genuine because I really enjoyed Hero (I don't give a damn about its timeline deficiencies, I liked the Bulldog character, I liked Tigh getting out and about and I liked the slight doubt that was cast on the Cylons' motives for attacking the twelve colonies). Sarcastic because everyone else seems to hate the episode and Joe pulled my innocent post out and made a target-practice thread of it. Baiting because I know you dislike Hero and Season Three (though I still think the latter is due to the heroic and necessary sacrifice of the Pegasus).

[pagad]

Har-de-har. Yes, the loss of the Pegasus did sour the season early on for me, but I do think that the quality of the episodes also suffered as a result of Sci-Fi's pressure on RDM and co to do less "arc-based" episodes in favour of standalones.

I did, in fact, enjoy Hero quite a bit - not hugely, but I thought it was a nice little episode - before I knew about the continuity errors it threw up. I never notice this sort of thing unless it's pointed out to me, and when it is, it bugs me hugely (if I could rid Battlestar Wiki of one thing, it would be the continuity errors mentioned in the "Notes" section for each episode). I think the episode could have worked really well if the writers had executed it properly. I agree that Bulldog was a great character, and I liked that we saw another battlestar, the Valkyrie.

[genji2000]

Yes, the timeline discrepancies are a big achilles heel in the show. I can ignore them, but I still wish they didn't exist.

[pagad]

It's only in Hero that the continuity really annoys me, and as it's a standalone episode (and thus ignorable; there's no consequences to its events) it really doesn't matter that much. In this regard BSG is remarkably watertight compared to other shows.

[northtwilight]

For me, in no particular order, Hero for the continuity, Epiphanies for the first of many cop-out plot devices (A Measure of Salvation, I'm looking at you!), Unfinished Business (tedious in the middle of so many shitty episodes that season -- yet surprisingly, I didn't mind the DVD version, God knows why) but most of all?

Crossroads.

Why? Because I don't want to watch a procedural/goddamn courtroom drama in space. Because Lee says stuff that is blindingly obvious and unnecessary.

Ultimately, the biggest reason is because I don't want to hear Bob frakking Dylan!!

I keep coming back to a post I made on Slashdot at the time (sorry for the repeat):

Tigh: I'm telling you, there's Cylon sabotage aboard this ship!
Adama: You're telling me there's sabotage? With music?
No, Admiral.
That sound you're hearing?
That's the sound of the writers pissing away three years of hard-won credibility in the space of seven minutes.

[Batman316]

That's the sound of the writers pissing away three years of hard-won credibility in the space of seven minutes.

hmm.... maybe you just didn't 'Get it' Look at how much fan discussion has gone into the events of the final few scenes. Brilliantly acted and directed turning everything we knew on it's head. Suddenly we are lost, up the creek without a paddle.

An awesome climax!

[northtwilight]

hmm.... maybe you just didn't 'Get it' Look at how much fan discussion has gone into the events of the final few scenes. Brilliantly acted and directed turning everything we knew on it's head. Suddenly we are lost, up the creek without a paddle.

An awesome climax!

I will grant that it was acted well, and directed well. It's just the goddamn song that doesn't work for me, at all. It felt like the carefully-constructed universe came crashing down to reveal that it was just television like everything else.

And pointing out that fan discussion was frantic afterwards is not evidence of anything, sorry. I spoke with a number of friends who watched it independently and they said the same thing, the song ruined the finale. Now, I'm not saying that my interpretation is right and yours wrong -- I'm saying it didn't work for me, at all.

[Batman316]

all I can respond with is that the scene sent chills down my spine. I remember hearing the first line and I thought wtf? Then the second.....

Anyway to each their own, that's the fun of forums :)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I do tend to agree with northtwilight, the song did kinda destroy the overall performance. Now, I like the song, and I think it's great. However, it doesn't really "fit" in the construct of the show...

Fortunately, they haven't brought back the song since, other than some of the minor motifs during "Revelations", which I did not mind.

It's something that RDM had to work out of his system, because rumor has it that he wanted to use "All Along the Watchtower" back when he was working on Roswell.

Other than that, if that's the only major indulgence that RDM has been given the opportunity to execute, then I'm happy. Otherwise, we may be faced with a potential appearance by a cameo by Dirk Benedict smoking a cigar and claiming to be the Cylon god to Gaius Frakking Baltar. :lol:

[genji2000]

It felt like the carefully-constructed universe came crashing down to reveal that it was just television like everything else.

But it is just television. That's what I really liked about the use of the song. I've learned since that RDM's explanation for it is that maybe not Bob Dylan or Jimi Hendrix but a melody and a sequence of lyrics can seep through from our culture to theirs (or vice versa, who knows?). That disappointed me because on first viewing I thought it was utterly amazing TV. Like the use of the Hybrid as a chorus ("Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spun some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction"), I felt that it represented the Writers speaking directly to the audience, with the actors simply delivering the message and not quite understanding it.

[northtwilight]

... Now, I like the song, and I think it's great. However, it doesn't really "fit" in the construct of the show...

Fortunately, they haven't brought back the song since, other than some of the minor motifs during "Revelations", which I did not mind.

It's something that RDM had to work out of his system, because rumor has it that he wanted to use "All Along the Watchtower" back when he was working on Roswell.

Other than that, if that's the only major indulgence that RDM has been given the opportunity to execute, then I'm happy. Otherwise, we may be faced with a potential appearance by a cameo by Dirk Benedict smoking a cigar and claiming to be the Cylon god to Gaius Frakking Baltar. :lol:

Egad, no! Please, Lord, nothing with Dirk Benedict ever again...

Agreed about the minor refs in Revelations, that wasn't bad at all. I'd heard that Roswell rumour as well and thought that was just messed up...

But it is just television. That's what I really liked about the use of the song. I've learned since that RDM's explanation for it is that maybe not Bob Dylan or Jimi Hendrix but a melody and a sequence of lyrics can seep through from our culture to theirs (or vice versa, who knows?). That disappointed me because on first viewing I thought it was utterly amazing TV. Like the use of the Hybrid as a chorus ("Throughout history the nexus between man and machine has spun some of the most dramatic, compelling and entertaining fiction"), I felt that it represented the Writers speaking directly to the audience, with the actors simply delivering the message and not quite understanding it.

It's funny, I think of that as the lamest excuse on RDM's part. If it were meant as something transcendent, make it less specific culturally. Hell, make it older, at least. Clearly that was bollocks, and I think he had to know it.

And I agree WRT the Hybrid.

Cheers
Mass

[genji2000]

If it were meant as something transcendent, make it less specific culturally. Hell, make it older, at least.

Yeah. They should've gone with "hey, nonny nonny."

[Biozombie]

Unfinished Business, Scar and Black Market were the only episodes I wasn't too keen on. The Woman King appears really unpopular but I really enjoyed it. Helo rules.

[BSGfan-atic]

A Day in the Life (webcam + BSG), The Woman King (soap opera + BSG), Sacrifice (soap opera + BSG).

[Osprey]

I would posit one's feelings towards helo very heavily weighs upon inclusion [or not] of the woman king on this list ...

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I would posit one's feelings towards helo very heavily weighs upon inclusion [or not] of the woman king on this list ...

That's a very good point. I do tend to agree with that.

"The Woman King" isn't a bad episode in terms of a linear story. It was a good story for Tahmoh Penikett, and it did create tension in the Agathon family, which was nice to see.

On the other hand, "The Woman King" is very much an episode you'd see on Star Trek, particularly the Next Generation or Voyajeer. A very bottle show with a 'morality lesson' about doing no harm, ethnic cleansing, racism, etc.

Also, a lot of the hatreds for the Sagittarons seem to have come from out of nowhere. The Chief was suddenly a racist, Dualla suddenly despises her heritage, and everyone seems to have been blinded by a firestorm of hatred with no backstory to it.

[genji2000]

Also, a lot of the hatreds for the Sagittarons seem to have come from out of nowhere. The Chief was suddenly a racist, Dualla suddenly despises her heritage, and everyone seems to have been blinded by a firestorm of hatred with no backstory to it.

I think they had the attack on the Sagittarons on New Caprica, in which Baltar and Gaeta were implicated, and which never came out in the end, running throughout Season Three. Maybe anti-Sagittaron feeling was always in the Writers' heads.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I think they had the attack on the Sagittarons on New Caprica, in which Baltar and Gaeta were implicated, and which never came out in the end, running throughout Season Three. Maybe anti-Sagittaron feeling was always in the Writers' heads.

Yes, there was the massive rewrite thing going on when RDM and company found that their Sagittaron approach to Baltar's trial would not have worked. Unfortunately, this episode was very heavy in Sagittarons, and the hatred was so woven in that episode that it was impossible to remove it without unweaving the fabric of the said episode itself.

[genji2000]

So Kandyce McClure (a black actress) plays Dee D. Dualla (a Sagittaron character) in a significant 4.5 story arc... could be a statement. I know how you love those episodes that have some kind of half-arsed moral in them.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

So Kandyce McClure (a black actress) plays Dee D. Dualla (a Sagittaron character) in a significant 4.5 story arc... could be a statement. I know how you love those episodes that have some kind of half-arsed moral in them.

Hahaha.

I don't mind "morality plays" so much as the Star Trek method whereby the "moral of the week" is shoved down our throats.

What I look for is a balance in a story. If you want to make a political or social message, fine... but put it in a story so that it is either believable or enjoyable to read, even if you don't agree with it. If it makes you rethink your position on things, or reaffirms such positions, then all the better.

Succinctly put, I don't need someone's message of [what-the-frak-ever] shoved in my face. "Ethnic cleansing is bad! Boogedy-boogedy! Boo! Bad! Badda-bing!"

"The Woman King" would've been a good episode has it been tied in better with the overall story. It would have probably made a good Star Dreck episode... which is the reason why I think it may have originated from a proposal from the Trek days of some certain writers.

[Sgt Teta]

I ensure i look away for the bloody spoilers at the begginning of every episode, it stresses me out so much, i dislike any episode in which i accidentally watch them!
And they got rid fo them for the first disk of one season, i forget which, and i was like *HURRAH* but then they came back.

That aside, i dont think there have been any episodes i havent enjoyed, honestly. I even liked Black market, you saw a lot of lee, some serious charicter development, he was shown (for once) as not being a saluting, parading, perfect officer for once (i say FOR ONCE, he isnt allways obviously, but 9/10)

Probably Flesh + Bone is my least favourite... kara found that torture far too easy, it didnt work for me (i liked it the first time round, but on reruns, i didnt)

[benboy606]

My least favorite episode is definitely "Black Market". I think I feel asleep about five times :lol: Just...not good.

I also disliked "The Woman King" and "Hero". Those round out my bottom 3 :)

[pagad]

Hahaha.

I don't mind "morality plays" so much as the Star Trek method whereby the "moral of the week" is shoved down our throats.

What I look for is a balance in a story. If you want to make a political or social message, fine... but put it in a story so that it is either believable or enjoyable to read, even if you don't agree with it. If it makes you rethink your position on things, or reaffirms such positions, then all the better.

Succinctly put, I don't need someone's message of [what-the-frak-ever] shoved in my face. "Ethnic cleansing is bad! Boogedy-boogedy! Boo! Bad! Badda-bing!"

"The Woman King" would've been a good episode has it been tied in better with the overall story. It would have probably made a good Star Dreck episode... which is the reason why I think it may have originated from a proposal from the Trek days of some certain writers.

I liked the "abortion" B-plot thread in The Captain's Hand. On the one hand, you have the issue of liberties and women's rights...on the other, the possibility that the human race will go functionally extinct in 18 years, according to Baltar's data. And he uses that data to springboard his election campaign.

It's a good example of how BSG, more often than not, does issues like that well. Here it's actually interwoven into the storyline as part of Baltar's backstabbing campaign.