Final Cylon speculation thread

[alpha5099]

Joe started the Cain as Final Cylon thread already, but I felt bad about hijacking his thread with my own speculation. Anyway, the issue's big enough that a more general thread for any and all speculation seemed in order. Without further ado, my own feelings on the subject:

As I see it, the Final Cylon has to be huge. Main cast huge. I don't think anyone outside the main credits has the magnitude to really register. "Oh, Gaeta's a Cylon. That's nice. I like Gaeta." It just wouldn't be a surprise. The Final Cylon (unless Moore and Co. are planning on a reveal that doesn't play to our standard expections; I wouldn't put it past them to nonchalantly introduce the Final Cylon) has to be someone who completely disrupts the show.

Personally I feel that only one person is capable of being a shocking choice for the Final Cylon. Adama and Roslin are too obvious. Baltar's chances seem low after spending half a season dancing around the issue. Kara's obviously important, but her destiny being "I'm a Cylon" seems unlikely. That leaves Lee, in my opinion the only character that raises more questions that Tigh, and one of the most human characters on the show. Lee's unmasking as a Cylon would, in my opinion, send the most shock waves throughout the fleet. Just the confusion from Adama alone would be worthwhile.

Others will probably fervently disagree, but for my money, Lee's the best man for the job.

Although, thinking about it now, I can see myself supporting Baltar on one condition. The Final Five seem to be a horse of a very different color. Their agenda isn't clear yet, but personally I'm expecting them to be on the human side. I would like Baltar as the final Cylon, if it means that all of his expectations of being a Cylon are flipped on their head. He wanted to be a Cylon so that he could rid himself of his guilt. If he discovers that he is a Cylon, but a Cylon as Messianic figure for the humans, that could lead to some delightful new guilt as he comes to terms with what it all means. Yes, Baltar being Public Enemy #1, suddenly being thrust with the position of humanity's savior, that could be interesting.

Anyway, what are everyone's thoughts? Personally, who would you pick? Who do you feel is cleared?

[JDS]

You're really going to have to explain how the whole Lee-as-Cylone thing works with the whole Lee-is-William's-son thing. Because they don't seem to fit together. And I REALLY don't want to hear "Well all of his memories of raising Lee were implanted". Because that just doesn't fly.

BTW, I see Gaeta as part of the main cast. Gaeta rocks, he's one of my favorite characters. Even if he didn't have a first name until Final Cut.

I think Starbuck would work better as the Final Cylon. Not sure how much that would do for the story, though. Of course, it would explain how she died and then reappeared.

[alpha5099]

I'm not saying that Lee-as-Cylon necessarily makes sense logically. I don't know how it would work. But with Tigh as a Cylon now, most anything seems possible. Yes, Lee would require more explanation than anyone else, but I personally think the payoff would be worth it.

When I said main cast, I meant in the title credits. I'm not slighting Gaeta in any way. He's one of my favorite characters (although that's sort of a silly thing to say, as I love pretty much everyone). But a surprising Final Cylon he ain't.

Obviously Kara's a possibility, and I'd certainly like another female as the gender balance of the Cylons is already off, but I don't think the fact she came back really necessitates her being a Cylon. Especially considering everyone in the show is going to be going, "Frak! She came back from the dead. She must be a Cylon." It doesn't really work dramatically if she one day says, "Yeah, everyone was right, I am a Cylon." Sort of the same reason that Baltar being a Cylon wouldn't have much punch after several episodes of him brooding over the idea.

Of course, all of my assumptions hinge on the Final Cylon being a surprise.

[BklynBruzer]

I think this (http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/Magazine-Home/mbnews7224329329.html) proves Starbuck's a Cylon. It explains her survival.

[JDS]

This is speculation, don't bring spoilers in here!

I'm choosing not to read that.

In fact, maybe we should put a spoiler rule into effect...

[BklynBruzer]

Well then fine, forget the spoiler, but I still think it's Starbuck.

[Shane]

Just added the spoiler box. No worries. :)

[BklynBruzer]

Just added the spoiler box. No worries. :)

Very nice work, Mr. Resident vB Software expert dude!

[buerger23]

I thinks it Starbuck how else would she have been able to get out of "Maelstorm". My theory is she ejects gets picked up in the Heavy Raider taken back to a basestar gets a new Viper and goes shows Lee. Now I think she escaped since the 7 known cylons don't like the final5 or dont talk about them much.

[JDS]

Meh, I just think that Kara died and was downloaded or something. I mean, we saw her just plain BLOW UP, no ejection or even "lost sight and then there was a fireball". Anything trying to weasel out of Kara dying would seem weak.

BTW it's actually correctly spelled "Maelstrom", even though "Maelstorm" might seem more logical.

[Lybrion]

Hey all....I think that you have forggotten someone....Pres. Laura Rosilin would be the final Cylon. She heard the music and had the dreams. Taking Kamalah extract could be inhibiting the activation. There is the belief that the final Cylon would be a unique or a original creator cylon. Remember that the cylons were created by man, so it wouldn't be unusual for them to create a 'messiah' to help them find thier future, a messiah that hasn't fully awakened and is an effigy of thier creator (being human)

[Lybrion]

JDS, r u a fan of TOS? If you are then you might remember a 2-part ep that a race of advanced beings in a ship of lights. This could be one of the many parallels that the reimaged series uses from TOS. Starbuck being ressurected? This race from TOS also resurected a main charecter (albeit Appolo), and gave the coordinates for Earth..

[JDS]

JDS, r u a fan of TOS? If you are then you might remember a 2-part ep that a race of advanced beings in a ship of lights. This could be one of the many parallels that the reimaged series uses from TOS. Starbuck being ressurected? This race from TOS also resurected a main charecter (albeit Appolo), and gave the coordinates for Earth..I'm a fan of the original series, but I haven't seen that episode.

I'm not really sure about Roslin being a Cylon, I think that would be a bit too much.

BTW, do we have any idea whether Baltar's Cylon Detector was able to detect Final Five Cylons? I mean we know that he just set it up so that everybody reads as human, but before he did that, did he test Tigh, Anders, Tory, or Tyrol?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

The episode in question is "War of the Gods".

Roslin being a Cylon might make sense, but it really doesn't do anything story wise -- and therefore Tory's role is significantly reduced to being a "yes ma'am" character... a servant, if you will.

Anders and Tory really came in after the whole Cylon detector mess, so I sincerely doubt they were tested. Tyrol and Tigh, on the other hand... if they were tested, they probably came up green, given that they only started testing the Galactica command staff in "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down"... or so we're lead to assume.

[JDS]

I kinda wish the whole Cylon Detector story had worked out a bit differently...like at least one Cylon should have actually been detected and outed by it, instead of just catch one Cylon and Baltar didn't say anything and then everybody found out anyway.

[alpha5099]

Speaking of the Ship of Lights, when I first saw Maelstrom and Crossroad Pt. 2, I thought I might have seen it. Both when Kara's going into the storm and when Lee is trying to find the blip on his dradis, there are shots out of the front canopy of the viper, and when I first saw those episodes, it looked like there was a giant ship hiding in the clouds. I've seen it discussed elsewhere, and I've partially been convinced that it's just the reflection of the lights in the viper. And I've gone back and watched those scenes again, and couldn't quite find it, but when I first saw it, I thought, "Holy frak, there is a giant ship there!" A friend of mine saw the same thing, although chances are we're wrong.

Anyway, I've always felt like there was probably a third party involved in Galactica, so I've been expecting the Ship of Lights for a while now. Probably, though, if anything like that does happen, it'll be the Final Five, not the beings of light.

[JDS]

I somehow accidentally deleted it from my DVR, but I'll see if I can check it out on DVD.

[Lybrion]

Alot of my friends think that starbuck would be the final and I hope that's not the case. I feel there has to be a third party. But I think if it is the Final Five, then maybe they are benevolent. The buzz on the net say that the toasters are going to rebell against the clones. Why can't baltar be the final cylon? Just because Number Six said he wasn't? She also says she had never seen the final five..

[alpha5099]

Lybrion, there's some kind of spoilery stuff in your message. Could a mod maybe tag the "buzz"?

Anyway, yes, I'm also rooting for the Final Five to be the third party. I'm less interested in them being benevolent, so much as playing everyone against each other. I hope that they're in charge of all the visions, and that Head Six and Head Baltar, along with the Fantastic Four and the mysterious Final Cylon, have been pulling strings and nudging things to exactly where the Final Five want them. For frak's sake, someone has to have the plan we keep being promised.

[jryoho]

JDS, r u a fan of TOS? If you are then you might remember a 2-part ep that a race of advanced beings in a ship of lights. This could be one of the many parallels that the reimaged series uses from TOS. Starbuck being ressurected? This race from TOS also resurected a main charecter (albeit Appolo), and gave the coordinates for Earth..

I have been thinking this for a while and was hoping RDM would do sething with the beings of light, and the minute kara dhowed herself i thought she was one of them. I love how they take things from TOS and make them they're own in totally unique fashion. By the way, did anybody notce that Kara was enveloped in lught just before her ship exploaded? Sorry about the spelling errors, im using my phone and it doesnt type properly when a web page is still loading.

[Mercifull]

Baltar being a Cylon would ruin the whole series. He is supposed to be the traitor, the destroyer of humanity. If he were a Cylon then it woudlnt be as powerful.

[jryoho]

agreed, I doubt Bsltar is because of the way they teased him out during the third season. But I do believe he has at least some sort of destiny in terms of him being the chosen one. I still believe that the writers are going to make us question who will be humanity's savior will be between Baltar and Roslin. Especially since some people are fancying Baltar some sort of healer in season four.

[iheartstarbuck]

As much as would it make sense for Starbuck to be a Cylon, i.e. why she was able to return from "death" during the Maelstrom episode, there are a few key things as to why this isn't true:1) As mentioned in the episode The Farm (episode 2.0.5) by the Cylon Simon, Kara is one of a few remaining HUMAN women left on Caprica and she should be open to the idea of childbirth to save humanity, despite her qualms of being a parent due her own abusive childhood.2) In the same episode, there is a distinctive scar on her lower abdomen, denoting the fact that something was taken from the area very close to the Ovaries. Leoben later mentions that the girl, Kacey, was made from his seed and Kara's egg. You have to wonder, if she was a Cylon, wouldn't they (the other Cylons) have been able to detect that after removing her ovaries, thus negating the reason for Leoben to imprison her to raise "their child" during the Occupation? And also, we know from Athena that two 'skin-jobs' can't pro-create, due to the lack of love.3) If you look closely, the Viper that Kara is flying during the Maelstrom episode and the one that returns in Crossroads pt. 2 is the same one, bearing hear name, rank, and call sign.4) I completely agree with other assessments that she was not just resurrected by the fabled ones in the ship of lights (TOS reference), but perhaps she is one of them. I make this conclusion based on the two things:a. Leoben states that Kara has a destiny, one that is special, and one that has happenened before. We discover that this means that she knows the way to earth.b. Before the Cylons die completely they prayed the Prayer to the Cloud of Unknowing, and this cloud could, in fact, be these fabled ones. This of course, lends itself to Leoben's fascination with Kara, being that he is the most prophetic and religious of the Cylon models.Therefore, I think that Starbuck is a reincarnation of one of these fabled creatures that helped the 13th Tribe find its way to Earth over 4,000 years ago. Which is why she is able to reincarnate again, since nothing is truly known about these fabled creatures, there is no telling as to what the full extent of their powers truly are.

So, who do I think is the final Cylon. I think that the 'Fantastic Four' (alpha5099) may not be part of the Final Five. The only reason that I say this, is simply due to the fact of Tigh's age, and also Tyrol's child.

Now, Saul Tigh has existed before the first Cylon war, back before the "evolution" occurred. Unfortunately, I know that this is a weak argument, due to the fact that Caprica-6 references them as, "...We don't speak of them (the Final Five)..."

Of course, my other point, about Nicholas Tyrol could be moot as well. However, Doc Cottle, in examining Hera, could have noticed (hypothetically speaking) that Nicholas' blood was not similar in anyway to human blood, lending itself to the idea of a half-Cylon baby. This would mean that Cottle would have had to examine the baby, and done blood-work at some point, which we, of course, do not know if he did or not.

So, maybe the Final Five aren't really human and aren't really Cylon, perhaps they, themselves, were some of the first experimentations with cybergenetics and biomechanisms by the Cylons.

Finally (and I know that this has been a long post), I don't think that Roslin is a Cylon simply due to the fact of the blood work that was performed on her as part of her diagnoses. On the other hand, if she was not either human or Cylon, but one of the first hybrids, there is no telling what is really going on inside of her.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

3) If you look closely, the Viper that Kara is flying during the Maelstrom episode and the one that returns in Crossroads pt. 2 is the same one, bearing hear name, rank, and call sign.


Welcome to the boards, iheartstarbuck! :)

As for the Viper... Actually, it's the same type of Viper, but her Viper looks brand new.

Therefore, I think that Starbuck is a reincarnation of one of these fabled creatures that helped the 13th Tribe find its way to Earth over 4,000 years ago. Which is why she is able to reincarnate again, since nothing is truly known about these fabled creatures, there is no telling as to what the full extent of their powers truly are.

So, who do I think is the final Cylon. I think that the 'Fantastic Four' (alpha5099) may not be part of the Final Five. The only reason that I say this, is simply due to the fact of Tigh's age, and also Tyrol's child.

Now, Saul Tigh has existed before the first Cylon war, back before the "evolution" occurred. Unfortunately, I know that this is a weak argument, due to the fact that Caprica-6 references them as, "...We don't speak of them (the Final Five)..."

The producers, and Ron Moore, have mentioned that they are the Final Five and are part of that group. However, they are "fundamentally different".

Also, seeing as how this forthcoming season will be its' last, i doubt very much that they would do yet another reveal of the "true" final five.

Of course, my other point, about Nicholas Tyrol could be moot as well. However, Doc Cottle, in examining Hera, could have noticed (hypothetically speaking) that Nicholas' blood was not similar in anyway to human blood, lending itself to the idea of a half-Cylon baby. This would mean that Cottle would have had to examine the baby, and done blood-work at some point, which we, of course, do not know if he did or not.

So, maybe the Final Five aren't really human and aren't really Cylon, perhaps they, themselves, were some of the first experimentations with cybergenetics and biomechanisms by the Cylons.

Well, the medical situation on New Caprica wasn't shown to be that great. (For instance, Cottle didn't have much in the way of antibiotics to treat Anders' pneumonia in "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II".) So I really doubt that anybody got a proper physical down there, particularly with supplies and personnel stretched so thin.

Also, there was no indication that Nicholas was really sick, likely due to his Cylon heritage. Thus, no reason to really do blood work.

Finally (and I know that this has been a long post), I don't think that Roslin is a Cylon simply due to the fact of the blood work that was performed on her as part of her diagnoses. On the other hand, if she was not either human or Cylon, but one of the first hybrids, there is no telling what is really going on inside of her.

I'm not one who wholly believes that Roslin is a Cylon; it does makes sense, given her connection to them -- such as the dream sharing experience in Crossroads, the "projecting" of the snakes on the podium in "The Hand of God" and other things.

[chucklitos]

I know there is another thread on this, but I thought it made sense to bring it up here. I think Cain might be the final cylon? Frankly I don't see why they would bring up the Pegasus plot (other than for fun, which usually isn't a motivation for hours of filming) unless it had to do with a core plot line. Now I know it can tie in in various ways, but if Cain were the last one that would be surprising to no end right? That would be satisfying. We really have gone through all of the main characters at this point and I think she's the only one left that would make any sense. She's dead, but presumably she can reincarnate. She's coming back, presumably for some reason. And while we didn't know here that well, after Razor we will, she was rather evil, but a fun character. The irony if Six killed one of the final five? Thoughts? I think it could work.

[iheartstarbuck]

So, Joe, does that mean that you might agree with me on the whole "first experimentations" thought process?

[JDS]

1) As mentioned in the episode The Farm (episode 2.0.5) by the Cylon Simon, Kara is one of a few remaining HUMAN women left on Caprica and she should be open to the idea of childbirth to save humanity, despite her qualms of being a parent due her own abusive childhood.Now if Starbuck were one of the Final Five, Simon wouldn't have known. So he would have simple assumed that she were a human because he only knows seven models.

2) In the same episode, there is a distinctive scar on her lower abdomen, denoting the fact that something was taken from the area very close to the Ovaries. Leoben later mentions that the girl, Kacey, was made from his seed and Kara's egg. You have to wonder, if she was a Cylon, wouldn't they (the other Cylons) have been able to detect that after removing her ovaries, thus negating the reason for Leoben to imprison her to raise "their child" during the Occupation? And also, we know from Athena that two 'skin-jobs' can't pro-create, due to the lack of love.Remember, of course, that Kacey wasn't REALLY their child, she was just kidnapped from a civilian woman. As far as detecting that Kara was a Cylon...maybe, maybe not. Maybe they never got a chance to do any tests, seeing as Kara more or less shut down the operation pretty soon after that surgery. Furthermore, we don't know exactly what they really did to her.

[BklynBruzer]

Remember, of course, that Kacey wasn't REALLY their child, she was just kidnapped from a civilian woman.

No proof either way, really. We have the civilian's word, but that's it.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

No proof either way, really. We have the civilian's word, but that's it.

Ron confirms it: http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Exodus%2C_Part_II#kaceyNotKaras

[iheartstarbuck]

Okay, so I admit to the fact that my argument may not be as fool-proof on here as it was in my head.

However, there was something that was said on one of these threads and I really liked it, b/c I think that their are real clues as to who the final one most likely is, something alluded to by RDM...

[ouiouiwewe]

Starbuck: If she's the final cylon, she probably wouldn't have approached Lee/Galactica so directly.

Roslin: It is not specifically said that "Moses" has to be a human and considering that Anders suffered from a disease during the end of Season 2, I wouldn't be surprised if a final five can succumb to cancer.

Lee: It'd be pretty lame for him to be a cylon because the only way for this to work is to have a cheesy backstory constructed to explain away the biological relationship with his father.

Cain: There's a no visible connection between Cain and the final five. If she is to be a cylon, I would've expected her to appear in season 3 during flash backs.

By the way, I wonder what's the role of the final five in this. According to the hybrid and the "Destiny is not what it seems" message in the teaser, I wonder if they really are horsemen of apocalypse.

[MQ2]

My first post, but I just had to say something about this speculation.
I don't know if anyone realized this earlier, but when number 3 sees the final five at the temple of jupiter, she says "I'm so sorry, I had no idea." (or something similiar) to one of them.
Can't trace this back to anything that's happened in the show earlier though. Maybe someone else can think of something?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Some people think she was apologizing to Anders for almost killing him in "Downloaded".

However, I think it's a general apology.

[ouiouiwewe]

It's very likely that she's apologizing to Anders because her apology was only directed at him. As for Saul Tigh, the experience was not personal enough.

[alpha5099]

I saw somewhere recently the very interesting idea that she was apologizing for screwing up the cycle of time. The idea is that Baltar was supposed to receive the vision, and that's how it's always happened and how it's supposed to happen, but for some reason Three was able to usurp his position, and realized her error when she looked upon their faces.

[Grace]

Baltar is the Master Cylon and 1 of the Final 5 that ensures the cycle of "this happened before and will happen again". The Final 5 were not recently created but have always existed and undergo a continuous cycle of death and rebirth. They lose the memory of who they are each time and they require special triggers to realise their true identity. Because Baltar knows he will not rememeber what he is after he is reborn, "Original Baltar" programmed the 7 cylon models, including No. 6 to seek "Current Baltar" out and carry out his will - which is to cause the destruction of the 12 colonies and follow/guide Humanity to Earth. No. 6 in Baltar's head is actually a representation/projection of Baltar's own subconsciousness that helps to guide Baltar in his actions. This explains why Baltar is able to seemingly make random but correct guesses of where the cylon weak spot is (Hand of God), who is a cylon (pre-Season 1 movie), what is going to happen next (cylon-hybrid child), what is cylon equipment (cylon transponder), etc the list goes on when you watch it all again.

[ShadowEnigma]

Grace, you really didn't have to post that in every thread lol.

[Lestat]

He has 6 posts all the same, actually an original and 5 copies , maybe that five copies are the final fives

[Musereader]

I'm thinking that Kendra Shaw is the last one, does anybody agree?

[Leroy Morte]

I'm not sure if this is were to post this remark, there are so many threads now about who is the final cylon, but I've been re-reading alot of posts and Joe Beaudoins post on another forum concerning Apollo as the 5th of the final 5, as well as sitting here at the computer working all week rewatc hing the majority of the series on SciFi. And the more I think about, the more seductive it becomes. I kept noticing a phrase popping up in reference to Lee, "A son in his fathers shadow", usually used in a not very pleasant way. And we all know the hybrids prophesy about the last cylon model. I think you may have won me over Joe, for now anyway. Guess we'll all be seeing really soon.

[ShadowEnigma]

That's an interesting point. I didn't think about that until you mentioned it Leroy. Lee being the final one would certainly be interesting, but I dunno if that's enough to convince me.

[Leroy Morte]

How about Lee's little conversation with Adama about brother Zak? Would he still love Zak if he had always been a cylon? Dammit, I wanna know for sure.

[Sewanee67]

first post here... random thoughts...
I have been bothered (like the timbo?) guy here about how Tigh for example could be a Cylon considering the long history he has...

I wonder if there has ever been a discussion of where the term "Cylon" comes from? And if we haven't too narrowly considered the term "Cylon"...

I was watching Aliens again yesterday and was reminded of the omnipresence of the "Company" (called Wyland or something) and was left wondering if "Cylon" comes from the company or organization that created them...

Since the whole Cylon presence is based on cloning in some form, maybe Tigh and co. are just clones of previous humans made by the "Cylon" company originally...

Maybe they are clones of the CREATORS of the cylon race in a first attempt at immortality.

Tigh and co. are different and "cylon" in name...I do not think they are machines like the others.

[ShadowEnigma]

first post here... random thoughts...
I have been bothered (like the timbo?) guy here about how Tigh for example could be a Cylon considering the long history he has...

I wonder if there has ever been a discussion of where the term "Cylon" comes from? And if we haven't too narrowly considered the term "Cylon"...

I was watching Aliens again yesterday and was reminded of the omnipresence of the "Company" (called Wyland or something) and was left wondering if "Cylon" comes from the company or organization that created them...

Since the whole Cylon presence is based on cloning in some form, maybe Tigh and co. are just clones of previous humans made by the "Cylon" company originally...

Maybe they are clones of the CREATORS of the cylon race in a first attempt at immortality.

Tigh and co. are different and "cylon" in name...I do not think they are machines like the others.

First off, welcome to the forums! If you need any help with anything feel free to message myself or the other mods/admins.

Second off I agree with you here. I also believe that the final five are not machines persay, but have a much more important and essential role in the show. They could be reincarnated people who created the Cylons perhaps. Or they could show up through every loop of time (All of this has happened, and all of this will happen again (Excuse me if I butchered that, I did it off the top of my head)). I think it will be just as interesting to find out the role and purpose of the final five as it will be to find out who the 5th is.

[Sewanee67]

what we have to remember with the "final five" and what/who they are is that we are almost at the point where all the main characters are "cylons"...so...hmmm...what are we really left with?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

The thing that really throws off people -- deliberately, since this has been a central question in the series since the beginning -- is "What is it to be human (or Cylon, for that matter)?"

So I do see where Timbo and others are coming from... The Final Five aren't like the other Cylons, but they are Cylons, just of a different cultural background, as it were.

[billypilgrim]

What about the girl that saved Baltar from having his throat slit.
Didn't She rip that pipe off the wall and woop ass a little to easily for a Gaius worshipping nubile waif? She dispatched 2 rather large men quite easily. She seemed to be sheparding him around abitt too.

I noticed her at first because she looked a little like Saffron Burrows. (I lurve Ms Burrows)

[ShadowEnigma]

I don't think they would make the Final Fifth be a new character like that. It would disappoint a lot of people, and just not flow with the story well, in my opinion. I'd bet a lot that the Fifth F5 is someone who has been around since Season 1.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

What about the girl that saved Baltar from having his throat slit.
Didn't She rip that pipe off the wall and woop ass a little to easily for a Gaius worshipping nubile waif? She dispatched 2 rather large men quite easily. She seemed to be sheparding him around abitt too.

I noticed her at first because she looked a little like Saffron Burrows. (I lurve Ms Burrows)

Well, she was being choked to death... However, I do need to point out that in life and death situations, adrenaline and other "flight of fight" reactions can give people "superhuman" powers for a short period of time.

For instance, there are stories of parents single-handedly lifting up or overturning a two ton car to rescue a trapped family member, and things of that nature that normally wouldn't be done under regular circumstances.

Doesn't make you a Cylon though.

[james968]

Though her little speech to Baltar, seemed a bit like 6.

I was thinking of a party game:

Put the name of all of the Characters into bowl
Draw a name
Justify the character being a cylon

[Leoben]

Well first post here, but I'm gonna take a swing with my thoughts on the final Cylon.

Before I get into all the details as to why, I'll simply state I firmly believe it's Gaius.

I'll start with the most basic evidence, in my eyes to supporting this claim. First, we know where he comes from, but little else, nothing on his parents, or family (other than a brief comment about lying to his mother back in s1). He is also a character of high importance.

The bulk of my theory however comes from the both the words of the first hybrid, and D'anna's quest for the 5 and her vision in the temple just prior to her line being boxed.

We'll look first at the hybrid, I'll cut out some of the other things he says in favor of what I feel, relates to Baltar. I will then apply it in context to events that have happened.

"And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

First comes the part of redemption, there is no character, in the entire show (at least in my eyes) wanting to be redeemed more than Gaius. He has been tortured at the hands of both races. When being subjected to drug induced hallucinations on Galactica in S3, he envisions himself surrounded by darkness, with only a light source as his lifeline. He is quite literally in shadow, clawing towards the light, which he feels is safety. In both cases of him being tortured, he lets out quite disturbing screams. This may be taking the words of the hybrid too literally, however, I think the connection is still valid.

There is also the case of miss D'anna. During her vision of the 5, she recognizes one of the faces and offers up this "forgive me...I had no idea". Her inflection and facial expression strike me as that that of a genuine apology. What major character, have we seen her wrong? The answer is Gaius, only an episode or two prior, she was the one torturing. Certainly the grounds for an apology. There is also this interesting bit, she reaches for the hand of that particular Cylon in the vision, only to be holding Gaius' when she comes out of it. Now during the past few eps, Gaius has suspected, and hoped he is a Cylon, and has said as much to D'anna. As she is dying in his arms, she tells him that "he was right" but has no time to elaborate on what exactly this was.

It should be noted that D'anna also had an encounter with Anders in Downloaded. My issue with this, is that, this is the only time D'anna interacts with Anders directly (to my knowledge) was this event meaningful enough to even register with her? Especially considering the act that followed (Caprica smashing her head in with a rock).

There is also the Baltar projection experience, which has yet to be explained. However he is correct, it is very very similar to what Caprica describes to him.

Another interesting bit, while less concrete, is the sketches D'anna does of her visions. One of the less prominent images shows a man with a beard and mustache, with shoulder length hair. At the time, this could easily pass for Gaius. I honestly didn't notice the sketch, until probably the 5th or 6th viewing of the episode.

I'm fairly certain there is a reason we don't know the identity of the 12th Cylon. I believe, whoever it winds up being, is going to be the most important of the final 5. I also believe, that there is the potential for the final Cylon to be as different from Tigh, Tori, Anders and Tyrol, as they appear to be from our significant 7 models.

So that's my nutshell theory on Gaius. Unfortunately, I'm running on around 3 hours of sleep (busy moving into a new house) so things may not be organized as nicely as they would be otherwise. So I'll probably edit and trim when I'm more awake to present the theory a little better.

[timbo]

Great post - clear, articulate well structured. Unfortunately, it is from Leoben, who is dangerous because he mixes truth with his lies. Therefore I have to disregard it completely.

We all reap what we sow.

[Coopsomulous]

Nice argument. Got a good few points in there.
Personally I hope its not Gaius, only because the fact that he is a traitor makes his character's story all the more better. I think it would be a cop out on the writers behalf, unless they pull it off really well.

[Amish Love Machine]

Could it be that the final five are, themselves, hybirds?

[timbo]

Yeah, that´s it. they are birds that fly really hy. They see the the big picture, y´know, the panorama.

[Osprey]

"The Final Five aren't like the other Cylons"

and that is the essence of prolly the 1st 1/2 of seas. 4 in one sentence -- new rulesets, it's gonna take us new places, and off we go with it!

[Leoben]

Nice argument. Got a good few points in there.
Personally I hope its not Gaius, only because the fact that he is a traitor makes his character's story all the more better. I think it would be a cop out on the writers behalf, unless they pull it off really well.

In some ways I tend to agree, even though I'm the one who posted the theory. More than anything though, I want the unveiling of our final Cylon to be big. I want it to be someone sitting at that last supper picture.

I think Gaius could be done well enough, from what I recall of season 3, the Cylons probably don't trust him too much. Between the virus he "lead" them to, and his participation in D'anna's unauthorized quest for the 5, they have sufficient reason to consider him an outsiders (despite the fact that we know him as being human, at least for now).

So really Gaius is an interesting choice, he is aliented himself from humanity, excluding his cult, and I imagine he's lost a lot of ground with most of the online models at this point. To top it all off, the 4 we know aren't fans of Gaius at all either, it could create some interesting dynamics.

I have a hard time buying it's an Adama, as I think I mentioned. There is a ton of history for that family, and it looks like with Caprica, we are going to see more.

I just hope, whoever it is, it carries weight. I don't think Gaeta, for example, would justify all the tension building around our final Cylon.

[Mingus]

People think Lee's not possible as the final Cylon because he's someone's son, and the father is alive. But there's that whole 'all humans are part Cylon' theory out there, which, coupled with the possibility to have a hidden DNA program, completely makes Lee plausible. The same way Tigh's known Adama longer than the humanoid Cylons have been around. If Lee is a Cylon, this DNA program could have been sprung in millions of people throughout the 12 colonies, ensuring that at least one would survive and make it to whatever causes its activation.

And here's the beauty of it...it doesn't even mean they would all have to look the same. It could be nothing more than a personality trait. Cylonness, I mean. It could have been anyone in the fleet, just like the other four. And I guess they're not out to destroy the humans...they had that chance already. And why didn't the final Cylon get activated? Maybe it's not supposed to be activated yet. Maybe it's not a question of drug use (the Roslin theory).

[Leoben]

Tigh has known Adama for 30 years, the Cylon war ended 40 years ago, and from what we can see in Razor, the Cylons were succesful at least in creating a hybrid of some kind.

10 years is a long time, especially for a race of highly advanced and intelligent machines. We have no way of knowing, yet, when the humanoid models came to be. All we know is when they were discovered.

Do I think Lee couldn't be a Cylon? No, I think there is the potential for it. I also believe that Lee, more than anyone else, is going to need a lot of back up.

I also think as of current, we have 1 member of the final 4, connected to, arguably, the most important aspects/characters.

Tigh - Bill
Anders - Kara
Tori - Roslin
Tyrol - The Galactica, we could also note, that he has a long history with the mother of the first Human/Cylon hybrid.

Is it really likely that Bill winds up with a double whammy? His best friend and his only living offspring, both Cylons. I don't think, being a Cylon is something as abstract as a state of mind either.

Lee is an interesting choice, and a major player no doubt, and he would like be the biggest surprise for a reveal, I just don't see him fitting with any of the other clues the show has provided thus far.

edit: spelling

[1Nivek1]

People think Lee's not possible as the final Cylon because he's someone's son, and the father is alive. But there's that whole 'all humans are part Cylon' theory out there, which, coupled with the possibility to have a hidden DNA program, completely makes Lee plausible. The same way Tigh's known Adama longer than the humanoid Cylons have been around. If Lee is a Cylon, this DNA program could have been sprung in millions of people throughout the 12 colonies, ensuring that at least one would survive and make it to whatever causes its activation.


Bingo bango.

"Ich bin ein Cyliner" -JFK

[Leoben]

I think the all people are part Cylon theory is quite interesting. I just have to wonder, from a logistical standpoint, how this would work.

What I mean is, you have 40,000 some odd "humans" left, who all find out, hey you're part Cylon. I imagine there would be suicide, civil unrest, murder all those fun things. Having the Humans and Cylons join together before the end seems tough enough (though I believe it will happen) but saying everyone is, at least partially.

I don't think everyone would take it as well as say, Tyrol.

Lee is a really interesting choice. I think as we learn about what the 5 are, the more clues we'll have. I just don't think as it stands now, there is enough....well anything to support Lee as being it, at least in my eyes.

As I mentioned, we can only track Tigh back about 30 years. He remembers fighting in both wars, we may even have records. Keep in mind though, Sharon's history was completely fabricated. Depending on how the 5 came to be, it is possible Saul's history is fake as well.

[1Nivek1]

I think the all people are part Cylon theory is quite interesting. I imagine there would be suicide, civil unrest, murder all those fun things.

Mmm...I hope so. BUT, they could always go with "only a select few" knowing the "real" truth, etc.


Lee is a really interesting choice. I think as we learn about what the 5 are, the more clues we'll have. I just don't think as it stands now, there is enough....well anything to support Lee as being it, at least in my eyes.


Well, I have a drawn out post in the forum already [see "Lee Adama is the final cylon"]on my reasons for picking him. My "conculsion" rests mostly on religious parrallels and dramatic effect. As of right now, I don't really think there is anyone who has conclusive support. My persornal belief on Gaius is he's too saturated to carry the burden of the 5th.

[iheartthesystem]

My main problem with everyone being part cylons is that it would cheapen the whole emphasis based on the 12 models and therefore be a bit anticlimatic. Sure, it would have a lot of dramatic impact if the big evil enemy was actually part of yourself and you have more in common with the enemy than you want. So while the Colonials thought they fought something completely different from themself, they fought actually a part of themselves. But still, I would feel like all the time spent on there being only 12 models, on the Final Five and so on would be somewhat wasted if the writers went with the everyone's a cylon story. Huge parts of the storyline and a lot of built-up would be for naught in my mind.
Plus I have a different problem with this theory: If everyone is part cylon, then the cylons must have been along for far longer than about 40 years. The basically the whole "the cylons were created by men and rebelled" premise also becomes invalid IMO. So two basic ideas of the show are suddenly void and for null. In that case the writers will better have some damn good explanation or otherwise I feel like the writers have made a fool out of my for four seasons. It would simply feel like bad storytelling at the expense of the fans to me.

[timbo]

Come, Sewanee, together we shall walk the road less travelled in search of the truth. Tigh is a stand up guy, representing the tough, uncompromising side of man. Too human to be cylon. His "you might wanna get to the doc to look at your hand" after someone had just punched him was brilliant. They chipped him in the eye on New Caprica, but messed up.
Plus at the end of HTBIM, they were ready to agree a suicide pact if they thought they might be a danger to the fleet. Someone is going to interrupt them just before they do it, humming "All along the Watchtower". I can see it in my minds eye so clearly.
Walk with Sewanee, we have much to discuss.

[Leoben]

Mmm...I hope so. BUT, they could always go with "only a select few" knowing the "real" truth, etc.

Well, I have a drawn out post in the forum already [see "Lee Adama is the final cylon"]on my reasons for picking him. My "conculsion" rests mostly on religious parrallels and dramatic effect. As of right now, I don't really think there is anyone who has conclusive support. My persornal belief on Gaius is he's too saturated to carry the burden of the 5th.

In a lot of ways I agree about Gaius. My theory on him is based on how I've interpreted the clues in the show. I don't necessarily believe him to be the correct choice.

The show certainly does pull from mythology and religion, so, after reading your theory I can definitely see where you're coming from. I'm just not sure how much closer they want to parallel religion and so forth.

I also agree with Iheart, the everyone is a Cylon thing does, in some ways, cheapen what we have established already. The lines between what makes you human or not are already extremely blurry. Season 4 is really showing ratcheting things up in that regard too. I like being able to have these questions posed as a viewer and to the characters. We only have 18 episodes to go, now a lot can happen, but I'm not sure opening that can of worms on top of everything else wouldn't just weigh the show down.

[1Nivek1]

I also agree with Iheart, the everyone is a Cylon thing does, in some ways, cheapen what we have established already. The lines between what makes you human or not are already extremely blurry. Season 4 is really showing ratcheting things up in that regard too. I like being able to have these questions posed as a viewer and to the characters. We only have 18 episodes to go, now a lot can happen, but I'm not sure opening that can of worms on top of everything else wouldn't just weigh the show down.

Well, the "everyone" is a cylon, I think will have some ironic meaning, and not the literal "everyone is a cylon". (If you understand what I mean). I think they'll have to say it in a manner like everyone has "just a little bit" of cylon in them. Much in the same way that years ago, geneticists believed they tied the human gene evolution down to Adam & Eve --- therefore we're "all" related. Something along those lines...

[Leoben]

Well that makes a lot of sense actually, even without the reveal. The humanoid models were created somehow. We see the original Centurions experimenting on humans in order to create the hybrid in Razor.

Perhaps genetic material was collect from 100s or 1000s of human sources to create our 12 models. So in theory we are all genetically related, at least in part. Just another thought. The way you stated it above is substantially more plausible than what I had originally interpreted.

[Sewanee67]

I have pretty much decided that the final five cylons are human.

To consider otherwise put the narrative in a GK Chesterton moment akin to "The Man Who Was Thursday" a allegorical novella that was satire.

In his book, a police detective infiltrates the local chapter of a dangerous anarchy-espousing group. He cleverly gets himself elected as head of this chapter to discover the shadowy force behind the anarchists. Ultimately, he becomes "Thursday" on the council of the seven anarchist leaders (each member has his own day designation).

The humor and satire comes from the revelation at the end that all seven members of the leadership council are in fact all police detectives!

When I has watching the last two episodes, I was thinking that if the final 5 are "skinjob" robots in the traditional cylon since, then we have a bunch of phoney baloney.

A scene in "He Believeth" that includes Athena and Apollo with Kara and the four new cylons struck me. Here are seven of the most central characters we have been following for some time. If Lee is a cylon (many proponents herre), we are also to believe that 6 of these 7 guys are robots, and only Kara is "real"?

I don't think BSG is going to boil down to "The Man Who Was Thursday," in which everyone is a robot and the drama is their own discovery of that.

So, again I think the "final five" cylons are human. This 'cylon' thing is a mindf**k for us viewers, and most dramatically, a mindf**k for the characters who will be screwing things up pretty soon.

[Sewanee67]

Per below, I have decided that the Final Five are humans....human clones of individuals related to the creation of all cylons. I am thinking they are clones of the cylon CREATORS.

This explains why:
1. Forbidden to be spoken about.
2. Why some of the models are obsessed with finding them: "who is my father? why do I exist?, etc."
3. The raiders are programmed to recognize their human creators if in fact though they are clones.
4. The eye scan of Anders was not program activation, but scan recognition.

The final five as human clones were the first step taken by the cylon creators toward the whole cylon program. I have posted elsewhere on the curious lack of any information as to the origin of even the word cylon.

I think it will all end with the cylon robots meeting the final five, seeing they are human, and then shutting themselves down due to the smallness of the epiphany: "we were made by humans and for humans who struggled with mortality."

[thecag]

The fifth cylon is the woman that Baltar sleeps with in the first episode of this season. Everyone has been focusing on the last main characters but I think she will be it.

Think about it. The first thing that happens when baltar meets the cult is that she is left alone with him and then she seduces him with references to the one god much like the Six has done.

I predict that she will become a much more important charater in the coming episodes an will likely become pregnant with Baltars child. this will make for an excelent plot twist. Most other possibilies are anti-climactic and od not make sense.

Please share your thoughts...

[thecag]

The idea of the last Cylons being human is very interesting. I have been thinking a lot about the recent references to "the programers" like in Six of One. Who are they and why to none of the models know who they are? They are obliviuos to there own origin. This will certanly tie in to the last cylon somehow.

My logic on the last cylon theory is based on the following:
1. It cannot be someone who has died or they would be resurected and the other models would know. Besides, the five are supposed to be with the fleet at this point. This rules out a lot of possibilies such as Lee's dead brother and Tigh's wife as some of my friends have speculated.
2. Most of the main characters such as Starbuck and Baltar are too obviuos so it would not make for a good story.
3. The "Last Supper" photo aludes to Dee due to the patern of human/cylon couples in it but I'm not sold on that idea yet.
4. A couple of the characters that recently turned out to be cylons did not become important till later seasons so someone could come up in the last season that we did not expect. We still have many more episodes left.
5. I guess I just expect somehting more creative and unexpected.

[1Nivek1]

Per below, I have decided that the Final Five are humans....human clones of individuals related to the creation of all cylons. I am thinking they are clones of the cylon CREATORS.


Yeah, I'm on board here, but I was going to go with a genetic anomoly (a la Matrix), because then the ugly question would lurk: "who cloned them?"

As for being the creators, that's also possible...I was leaning Lords of Kobol, but they could be one and the same.

[Coopsomulous]

The idea of the last Cylons being human is very interesting. I have been thinking a lot about the recent references to "the programers" like in Six of One. Who are they and why to none of the models know who they are? They are obliviuos to there own origin. This will certanly tie in to the last cylon somehow.

My logic on the last cylon theory is based on the following:
1. It cannot be someone who has died or they would be resurected and the other models would know. Besides, the five are supposed to be with the fleet at this point. This rules out a lot of possibilies such as Lee's dead brother and Tigh's wife as some of my friends have speculated.
2. Most of the main characters such as Starbuck and Baltar are too obviuos so it would not make for a good story.
3. The "Last Supper" photo aludes to Dee due to the patern of human/cylon couples in it but I'm not sold on that idea yet.
4. A couple of the characters that recently turned out to be cylons did not become important till later seasons so someone could come up in the last season that we did not expect. We still have many more episodes left.
5. I guess I just expect somehting more creative and unexpected.

You have some good points there Mr Cag. I also agree that the "Last Supper" photo points to Dee as the last cylon but I also am not convinced she is the last cyclon.

I am still betting on something unexpected happening

[thecag]

Oh, one more thing... I have ruled out Lee Adama because he went on the mission to the base ship where the cylons were infected with the virus and did not get sick. He must be human.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Oh, one more thing... I have ruled out Lee Adama because he went on the mission to the base ship where the cylons were infected with the virus and did not get sick. He must be human.

Not necessarily. You cannot give the Final Five Cylons the same rules as the Significant Seven, since we know they're fundamentally different.

Now as to how "fundamentally different" they are, that's a question that's not yet been answered. We get the feeling, however, that they can't resurrect and that they are a complete departure from what we know about the "Significant Seven" Cylons.

[ShadowEnigma]

I think it could be one of the main characters. Unexpected no, but with the brilliance of the writers it definitely wouldn't be dull. I wouldn't rule out any of the main characters that quickly. Also wasn't there a reference that the fifth has been there the entire time? Or is that just something I was hoping for haha? I just think to bring in a new character then make the final fifth wouldn't work as well.

[Leoben]

Shadow, there has been comments made by RDM and another top dog on the show (though I forget who) that says our final Cylon has been around since the beginning.

I think at this point you're right, no matter who they reveal, it probably wont be as big a shock as the first four. However, the writers are excellent on the show, and so it I can't see myself as being disappointed. As long as they aren't minor players, I'll be happy.

[ShadowEnigma]

Yeah that's what I thought, I just couldn't remember if it was backed by RDM.

I'm not too worried about the shock. I'm sure however it plays out it'll be good and I'll be satisfied. I have faith in the writers.

[buerger23]

It got to be someone who we've be drawn close to and who is an integral part of the show. My thoughts are that the fifith is one of the skin jobs we know now.

[Leoben]

Here's a question though. If one of the Human models of the S7 was a Final Five member, who and where is the model that should be occupying that number? For example say, Leoben was a F5 member (yes I'm biased) who is the real number 2 or who is our true last Cylon? If one of the S7 was a F5 Cylon, we'd still only have 11 models.

I think, like the other 4, our final Cylon is going to be someone that, up until this point, we've regarded as human.

[buerger23]

This is what I'm saying Leoben's are copies but the original one is the fifth which all other Leoben's are based off of (Example). It would also bridge the help bridge the gap between concept and production.

[Starstruck]

I'm pretty sure I read an idea in one of the threads that Doc Cottle is the final cylon. That idea has been needling at me. It makes sense dramatically, if the final is not a regular character who is in the thick of all the love stories and drama, but who is nonetheless trusted and respected by the crew and the audience. It would be a shocker moment. It would also make sense because he has access to everyone and all the ships. We have had no insight into what he thinks or feels. He is not in the Last Supper photo. He fought for Hera's life (you can also argue that was because of his Hippocratic oath, or BSG equivalent.)

The only thing that would not be "clean" about is that he is male. Having the genders match up to the 12 gods and goddesses would be cool.

Meh, I don't know if I buy it myself, but it's sounding better to me all the time.

[buerger23]

Interesting theory butwhy would he be stopping Doc. Roberts (woman king) from killing the colonials when he wouldn't even have to step in and I thoght at a point in the miniseries It said he's been assigned to Galactica for a long time even longer than tigh.

[Starstruck]

Well, we don't know what the five want yet. They might not want the humans to die.

I don't think the age thing rules him out, because we have Tigh.

[buerger23]

But Adama's memory could've been modified to remember him back in the flashbacks were the hybrid tank sort grabs him? But you never really know he very well could be it's just not my opinion I guess.

[JDS]

If BSG is resorting to falsifying people's memories, then I'm not sure I want to watch anymore. That's just pathetic.

[Leoben]

Well they did it for Boomer. I'm not saying it's something they need to, or even should be doing for characters. I'm pretty much in the same boat though. It really doesn't seem necessary for them to start falsifying everyones experiences.

[buerger23]

JDS, Leoben has a point because if they started falsifying memories back in the beginning why didn't you stop watching back them??

[Leoben]

They have to be careful how they do it, if they do it. The only reason I suggested it, is sort of a counter point to "Saul's been around for so long, etc" argument we see.

The truth is, Boomer has an entirely fabricated past. I would wager at most, the last 5 years of her life are memories that she actually experienced. So they could use the same device to explain Saul's memories of fighting in the first war. Of course, depending on the truth surrounding the Final Five, they may not have to at all.

Also, interesting catch on the 7/5 split between male and female Olympiads is interesting though it leaves very few possibilities. I've already stated my reasons why I don't think it's Dee, and that really only leaves Laura as a potential suspect.

Laura, to me at least, doesn't fit in with the first Hybrid prophecy, which I believe gives us some pretty large clues. She also has had very little contact with D'anna's line. I know some people believe Three's apology in the temple is directed at Anders, I however do not (though I wont get into why I think that again). Laura to me is probably one of the characters that is the farthest stretch.

[Coopsomulous]

I also dont think its Laura. Killing her with cancer and then resurecting her as a cylon seems a bit of a cop out to me.

I think we all need to come to the relisation that she is going to die in the coming weeks and thats all we will see of her character.

As a side, I think it would be a good reveal if Laura finds out who the final cylon is with her last breath. It would be a "OMG your a cylon and there is nothing I can do to warn the others" moment. A good end of episode cliff hanger.

[Starstruck]

I doubt anyone's memories are tampered with other than sleeper agents themselves. If Cottle is a cylon, he would have had to have been a plant from the way-back, I think, same as Tigh.

There is also the possibility that Tigh might have been an actual human who was killed or stolen and used to make a cylon copy. I doubt that's the case, because it's just too cumbersome. Anyway, whatever is the case for Tigh, regarding his length of time with the humans, can be true of the final as well, whether it be Cottle or someone else.

It kind of chaps my a** that RDM told us it's not someone in the Last Supper photo. I hate having my options narrowed like that. :)

[buerger23]

So if I'm understanding you correctly you think Tigh knew he was a cylon from the very beginning? If so how did you figure that one out? I think its quite obvious that he only found out at the end of Crossroads Pt. II.

[Starstruck]

So if I'm understanding you correctly you think Tigh knew he was a cylon from the very beginning? If so how did you figure that one out? I think its quite obvious that he only found out at the end of Crossroads Pt. II.

Nope, I didn't say that. I think he's a sleeper agent.

[buerger23]

Okay then I must have misunderstood. Sorry about that one. But then your theory makes perfect sense and what fun would that be. :lol::lol::lol:

[Starstruck]

No need to apologize. I didn't mean to sound snippy in my reply. ;)

[buerger23]

I was just joking around with the "I" I put in their. But it does make perfect sense now that you says he's a sleeper agent but one question why didn't his programming kick in till the end of season 3?

[JDS]

Well they did it for Boomer. I'm not saying it's something they need to, or even should be doing for characters. I'm pretty much in the same boat though. It really doesn't seem necessary for them to start falsifying everyones experiences.Okay, maybe "falsifying" wasn't precisely right word..."replacing" would be more accurate. Boomer was a Cylon with no history, so they created one for her. Adama is a human who had a history from birth. It would just be stupid if the Cylons changed his human memories.

As a side, I think it would be a good reveal if Laura finds out who the final cylon is with her last breath. It would be a "OMG your a cylon and there is nothing I can do to warn the others" moment. A good end of episode cliff hanger.Reminds me of some episode of [Superman/Batman/whatever stupid superhero show it was, they're all the same to me] where a villain realizes the superhero's secret identity right as the executioner flips the switch and fills the chamber with gas :lol:

[Leoben]

Remember man, I'm just playing devil's advocate on this one. I'm in the same boat as you.

[Jason1975]

I going to say this. I believe that Producers are over hyping the reveal of the last cylon to much. If the last cylon was the big bombshell, majority of us will be disappointed. I also believe that everything that they said about the last cylon is true. I believe they are doing this because we started the hype and they just but fuel over the fire. Why are they doing this? I believe they are doing this to hide the real main story and when that happens, our mouth will drop.

[buerger23]

Well then none of us should concentrate on the F5. Let's think up another theory? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sieglord]

What about Tom Zarek?

1. It would be a nice nod to the original, and Moore seems like the sort to be motivated by that kind of thing.

2. Zarek is also a character in need of redemption...maybe not to the same extent that Baltar is, but he's got some blood on his hands, just the same.

3. HOW IN THE FRAK DID HE SURVIVE NEW CAPRICA? Where was he? What was he doing? Why would the Cylons bother keeping him alive that long? (Should it ever have occurred to them to shoot Baltar, there was still no need for Zarek). His being absent for the entire episode, and then showing up just in time to save Roslin...and impress her with his story of defying Baltar...seems just a little...convenient. Even more convenient is that after all this time, after everything that's happened, he wins. He's going to become President of the Colonies before long. Something to consider.

[Leoben]

He already was President of the Colonies and he willingly gave up that role to Laura. He wants his hand in the decision making, but it seems like he doesn't want the weight of being the figurehead. It's not his style.

Also, him needing redemption is open to debate. The things he's done can be viewed as terrorism or freedom fighting (please no talk of current-day parallels here) and I don't think he regrets his choices. Some may think he needs it, others I'm sure don't. Though I don't believe Tom is hungering for it, as the Hybrid put it.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Tom believes what he did was right... He stayed in prison for it. If you remember, Adar would have given him a pardon if he agreed to tell people that terrorism wasn't an answer, but Zarek refused.

So Zarek needing redemption? No. He's a glutton for punishment, but doesn't need "redemption" in his own eyes.

[Leoben]

Exactly Joe, I had totally forgot about the pardon Adar offered, though that would have helped my previous post.

We're running out of people who need redeeming. My money is still on Baltar, though anything could happen in the coming episodes to cause someone else to want it.

[buerger23]

Ya I agree the only person really needing redemption in my mind is either Starbuck or Baltar. It can't really be anyone else in the fleet unless it's a current S7 Cylon model.

[Leoben]

Unless someone goes down a really bad path this season, then everything could change. However I think almost all of the First Hybrids prophecy has come to pass already. We have the Cylons splintering just like he predicted, though the full force of that is yet to be seen.

The only bits I can think of (from memory anyways) are the "they will join together in the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel" that bit obviously hasn't been fulfilled.

The bits about Starbuck, rumor has it that her lengthy episode with Leoben mid season delves into this. Sure to be a favorite episode of mine.

Finally the part about "In the midst of the chaos he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one."

The part about him finding her, may have transpired, though I imagine it plays directly into the sentence following it. If that Leoben episode turns out to be true (oh please let it) this might explain that. It could also describe the Human and Cylon races joining together, if we want to look at it more metaphorically.

[buerger23]

The only bits I can think of (from memory anyways) are the "they will join together in the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel" that bit obviously hasn't been fulfilled.

I always though this coming from the hybrid meant they meet on Earth. But I can't really remember but does it have to mean Cylons?

[Leoben]

It could mean the Humans and Cylons join together on Earth, the Human/Cylon fleet meets up with the renegade Cylons on Earth (Cavil's group). It could even mean, the Human/Cylon fleet somehow meet Kara and Co. on earth (though that one seems unlikely).

With the way things are split right now, there are a lot of things that could be joining together. I imagine the promised land is referring to Earth though.

[buerger23]

I might as well ask you now since you seem so sure that there is a human/cylon fleet. Is that revealed in tonights episode? hide it in spoiler code id like to know either way and hide it either way. Please!

[Leoben]

Actually it's not, I just don't see the genocide of the Cylon race happening, and I don't see them giving up on Earth. Enemies joining together, forgetting the past and moving forward to forge something new, that's where I think things are headed.

The show may not end on an upbeat, but I really do believe that for Man and perhaps Cylon to make it through this alive, joining together is the only option.

[buerger23]

Well I agree.

That's an interesting view and I totally agree with you on that I can't wait till they join up that will be very interesting.

[JDS]

Ya I agree the only person really needing redemption in my mind is either Starbuck or Baltar. It can't really be anyone else in the fleet unless it's a current S7 Cylon model.Helo needs more redemption than anyway, he's just too self-righteous to want it.

[Leoben]

What exactly does Helo need to be redeemed from? The guy stands up for his family and for doing the right thing more times than I feel like counting.

Helo isn't a Cylon anyways, otherwise Hera doesn't seem so special after all. However this is not another Helo thread.

[JDS]

Measure of Salvation, for one.

[Leoben]

I guess it really depends on where you sit then. I think Helo made the right call in that episode. Hell the old man didn't even want to make that choice.

I know there are plenty of people out there that disagree with me on that one, but so be it. You can look at it from a story standpoint or a morality one, either way, I still think the call was the right one.

[buerger23]

Story standpoint he shouldn't kill them all because there would be no more TV show and from the morality stand point they would be just as bad or even worse than the Cylon!

[JDS]

I guess it really depends on where you sit then. I think Helo made the right call in that episode. Hell the old man didn't even want to make that choice.Even the old man knew that Helo needed to pay dearly for what he did...but Helo's family, and there aren't a lot of them left, so he let Helo off the hook. But he know what should have been done, and Helo was ready to do what he wanted to and then wasn't willing to take responsibility for it.

[Leoben]

Umm...yes he was. He was standing in his cabin waiting for them to come take him. He was ready to accept the consequences.

That Adama let him off the hook isn't relevant to what I meant. Instead of really talking the thought over, Bill simply defers to the President under the guise of regulations. Bill wasn't willing to take responsibility, even a little, for the choice.

[buerger23]

That is totally right! But I mean does anyone think Lee was out of place revealing everything to the quorum and countering the president in such a way? But is that what the colonial government is turning in to a dictatorship? With Bill and Laura at the head of it?

[Leoben]

I think it was a little out of place, but I understood his motives behind it. The President is trying to cover things up. She's becoming exactly what Zarek said. I think Lee called her out on it, partially as a retaliatory response, but more that she was continuing down a path that isn't good for the people.

[Jason1975]

Actually, I think it more of a feeler for Lee. He was testing Roslin and she failed. Now Lee knows about what Roslin is doing now. It going be rough for both but great for viewers.

[buerger23]

I see where he was going and I know the president won't acknowledge him but I still think he's out of place he is only a junior member representing Caprica so this is the reason I believe he overstepped where he should'nt.

[Mishakal]

I think that the Final Cylon will be Dr. Cottle, since no doctor I have ever met in real life has been that ethical and this show does make some attempt to aim for a level of realism.

On the other hand RDM may decide to do something crazy and dreg up Kendra Shaw (or Admrial Cain) and make her the Final Cylon in a sick twist of irony.

[Leoben]

I could see it be Cottle if they got to an "oh shit" point in the series and couldn't come up with an explanation for someone better. Simply because Cottle's background is a complete mystery to the viewers, so it'd be easy to make up anything they wanted for him.

In terms of storyline though, I think he, like Gaeta and Dualla just don't carry enough weight within the BSG universe to be our final Cylon. Now one could counter "well Tory wasn't very important" and there's some truth to that. However, she is still the President's right hand, which makes her important, even if she didn't previously get a ton of screen time.

I really think they'll reveal a heavy hitter as the final Cylon.

[UnRep]

Has anyone considered the un-named bald tattooed pilot as the final Cylon? He's been around since the mini-series and pops up all over the place. That would be fairly out there.

[ShadowEnigma]

Out there yes, but I think that would be disappointing to us as the viewers because it wouldn't be someone we've known since the beginning.

[Leoben]

Agreed, in the realm of minor characters, that guy is tough to beat for someone we've seen more than once.

[leon]

Despite what Katee Sackhoff has said, Starbuck is the last Cylon, she's going to find earth,the other Cylons are going to follow her and the Galactica fleet there, Nuke Earth, destroy the Galactica, and takeover the planet.

-Fin

[ShadowEnigma]

I dunno, that doesn't seem like much of an ending to me. I'm not even sure they will find earth :p

[aubsgfan]

stolen from galactica sitrep:

http://www.battlestarforum.com/picture.php?albumid=4&pictureid=11

[Adobe]

(Originally posted in the wrong thread, my bad)

I believe Leoben when he says "Adama is a Cylon," but I think it's Joseph, not Lee. I hate speculating when it comes to such a mutable series that can spin everything on its head so quickly, but I just get this feeling like someone so close to the humanoid Cylon origins is probably deeper into it than we can imagine. Joseph Adama isn't so far removed from the heart of the series as to make the unveiling of the final Cylon trivial, and it could be used as a good explanation as to why the other four were so heavily integrated into human civilization (and maybe might help explain the coincidence of all four being on one ship?).

I just get the feeling from this series like it's going to get more surreal as the season progresses, chock full of questions to answer questions. Either spirituality will approach technology, or more likely, vice versa.

[crood]

Leoben's comment about Adama can't be taken seriously when we know the S7 don't know who the final five are and were actually programmed not to think about them.

[Adobe]

Leoben's comment about Adama can't be taken seriously when we know the S7 don't know who the final five are and were actually programmed not to think about them.

What if all he knew was that someone with the last name "Adama" was a Cylon?

See, Leoben's incorrigible duplicity does make it likely that he's just as full of shit here as he usually is, but I can't help but wonder.

Sometimes Leoben comes across as knowing just enough about the future to be dangerous. We know Oracular ability exists just by observing Roslin all of these years. I find it even more plausible that a Cylon line could be preprogrammed with a tiny amount of insight that would play itself out as if he had Oracular ability. There's no such thing as shame in the Cylon world, if a Cylon thinks he 'knows' things that have yet to come to pass there's no society of have-nots who are there to shoot him down and make him think he's not some kind of Oracle.

If through some circumstance the Leobens were programmed to know tiny details like 'Someone named Adama is a Cylon' and one of them decided to use that as a defense to buy time or disrupt the fleet. I don't think there's enough evidence yet to say Leoben was wrong.

[timbo]

(Originally posted in the wrong thread, my bad)

I believe Leoben when he says "Adama is a Cylon," but I think it's Joseph, not Lee. I hate speculating when it comes to such a mutable series that can spin everything on its head so quickly, but I just get this feeling like someone so close to the humanoid Cylon origins is probably deeper into it than we can imagine. Joseph Adama isn't so far removed from the heart of the series as to make the unveiling of the final Cylon trivial, and it could be used as a good explanation as to why the other four were so heavily integrated into human civilization (and maybe might help explain the coincidence of all four being on one ship?).

I just get the feeling from this series like it's going to get more surreal as the season progresses, chock full of questions to answer questions. Either spirituality will approach technology, or more likely, vice versa.


I have thought for a while that there may be a human(s) involved and that it might be Joseph or one of the colonies.

[Tamara Jagellovsk]

Hi there - first post :-) I´ve been following the series for ages, but have only recently registered here on the board.

I´m totally at a loss as to who the final cylon will be - there have been great cases made for a lot of characters, so I´m looking forward to the ride.

My personal "prime suspect" at present is Laura.

- If De´Anna´s recollection is correct (which it need not be, vague as is was), the Final Five are three men and two women. This would make a total of 7 male and 5 female cylon models, which would correlate with the 7m/5f ratio of the Olympians that has been pointed out above. This points towards the last cylon being a woman.

- There are not that many female characters left that have been around pretty much since the beginning (as RDM said - which excludes both Cain and Kendra for me) and are not Cylons. It pretty much has to be an important character who has had some screen time in order for the audience to care. It was a shock to learn about Tigh, Chief and Anders; Tory was a pretty nondescript character to me up until the revelation and I still couldn´t care less whether she´s a cylon, human, alive, dead or whatever. It would be a similar let-down if, say, Racetrack turned out to be the last one.

- Unless I´m missing anyone, that narrows the choices down to Starbuck, Dee, Ellen, Cally and Laura; the human females that we have come to know best and care about most. I don´t believe Starbuck is the one - I think her destiny is different.
I don´t believe Ellen or Cally will return because that would take away a lot from Starbuck´s story as the one who apparently died and came back from the dead.
It would also take away a lot of the tragedy from Tigh´s story (even if Ellen-returned would now resent him for killing her). Cally is also unlikely because of Nicky. Leaves Laura and Dee as the two most likely candidates. Dee at least has had quite a bit of screentime, but I don´t feel she´s important enough for the discovery of the final one to have much impact.

- Also, among the male cylons, we have two older (Cavil, Tigh) and five younger men.
All the female cylons known so far are younger women. It would fit to have the last cylon be an older woman, a bit of a motherly type. Not sure about Roslin´s age but she seems somewhat older than De´Anna, Six, Boomer and Tory, and in a way, Laura has been the "mother" of the fleet since the beginning.

- Episode 4.2. introduced the notion that Roslin worries that she might not be the "dying leader" after all. I think it may well turn out that the dying leader is, in fact, Kara who *has* died and mysteriously returned and there´s a different role for Laura in events (the Pythian quote about the "wasting disease" would have to be explained, though, since it seems to point towards the cancer... but diseases can also be of the mind and Kara suffers from quite a few hangups there that make her her own worst enemy. Too far-fetched?).

- Laura has been gradually becoming a darker character over the past seasons up to the point where she now points out that sometimes doing the right thing is a luxury. This might be where she fits in with the Hybrid´s words about a hunger for redemption. Adama made her give up the rigged election when he asked her if she could live with herself knowing what she had done - compare that to her decision about Baltar´s cult.

I´ve been wondering why the Cylons think it makes sense to abduct Laura as a means to force the Final Five out of their hiding in 412. Why should they care about the human leader enough to put themselves at hazard? It would make a lot more sense if either the Hybrid revealed something about Roslin or deboxed De´Anna recognized her, which makes her important to the Final Five as one of them.

In any case, whether I´m right or totally off the track, I´m enjoying everyone´s speculations and looking forward to how the story actually turns out to be .-)

[Galleon]

Ellen Tigh was a significant member of the "higher up" characters in the fleet....She was heavily involved in politics, moved herself into supporting Tom Zarek, repeatedly asked Adama about Earth, and how long it would take to get there. And least we mention all the influencing she tried to do to Saul to get things changed, done in higher up areas. Further, shes still recurring in his thoughts/delusions. He sees her instead of the Six in the Brig...and its forgiveness and comfort hes drawn to finding in her. And Also, on top of this, one of the utterances of the First Hybrid (Razor) was this:

"The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

I think that Saul "finds" Ellen in the Six so to speak, they are "enemies Brought together by imossible longing". Keep in mind too that Cylons as we know it are capable of induring intense physical demands, Ellen tigh wasnt shot when she died....she was poisoned... and left behind. Maybe her body could have metablozied the poison after a while...and waking up after that, realizing what had been done to her and why...she'd have a MASSIVE HUNGER FOR REDEMPTION..and that redemption could only come in the "Howl of Terrible Suffering".

I personally think The 5th has got to be a woman, and as well, Ellen's story of arrival in the fleet is pretty lacking in verification... unconscious for days, but no one recalls treating her before she was found by Adama.

anyway
My two cents.

[ShadowEnigma]

Interesting theory. Welcome to the forums Tamara Jagellovsk (http://www.battlestarforum.com/member.php?u=739)!

And I really hope it isn't Ellen... I was glad when her character got killed off.

[redwards95]

Tamara, another female character that could work is Carolanne Adama. We haven't seen definitive proof that she died during the cylon attack. Leoben said Adama was a cylon, but he didn't specify which Adama. It would be a bit lame to re-use the same sudden reappearence of a wife gimmick they used with Ellen Tigh to have Carolanne show up having hidden in the fleet all these years, but it would be doable. This would setup interesting plotlines between her and Bill and Lee. That said, I don't it is very likely to be her since she has only factored into one or two episodes (Bill's wedding aniversary, etc.). I lean more towards it being Starbuck.

[Inki]

Here are my speculations:

The Final Five are fundamentally different from the Significant seven in that they are not constructs but original humans who have been infected by a cylon software virus of the brain. Thus they can have complete human histories and need only have been influenced by the cylons at some suitable stage. Capturing human hardware in this way would be a logical step as the the cylons are good in software but have been unable to create reproducing hardware.

The last cylon could well be Admiral Adama, whose personality has been able to resist the virus so far. Possible hints: Adama's decommissioning speech in the miniseries bears a strong resemblance to Leoben's words at Ragnar, and it also attracted the attentention of Doral in the audience. Adama easily recognized Leoben as a cylon at Ragnar but felt comfortable enough to lead and turn his back towards him. Adama slumped when trying to strangle Athena on Kobol, maybe because the virus identified her as too important and intervened. The words "Zeus has returned to Olympos" by Zarek upon Adama's recovery may be a hint in the script, assuming that there is a link between the twelve gods and cylon models. The redemption thingy could well be about Zak's death.

If I were to think of a biblical ending, I would rename Baltar as John the Baptist, Hera as Mary, and perhaps Nicky as Joseph. Starbuck's role as the harbinger of death could be fulfilled in the following way: Something, perhaps the death of Apollo, triggers great pain, devastates Adama and allows the virus to finally gain control. Starbuck, having brought Galactica to Earth so that Adama can use it to cleanse humanity from Earth, would become an angel of destruction. However, realising this she might destroy the Galactica instead, and thus bring an end to the last humans from the twelve colonies. Maybe this could even happen in a bright flash observed by certain wise men on Earth. Don't know, though, if all the characters' ages would fully fit this scenario.

[Chiefchess]

If any of you had already read my posts on this subject, I apologize for repeating myself.
The final cylon is:
1. NOT Adama. The new series "Caprica" lists Adama's character as a child from the very begining.
2. By extention, Lee is NOT a cylon. None of the cylons, according to Moore, are based on real people. Surely Adama would know if his sons were cylons.
3. Starbuck is too obvious. Her role is the angel of the apocalyps. Plus, she is in the final supper picture.
4. Likewise, Laura is NOT the final cylon. She is Pythia and is doomed to die before the humans reach earth (like Moses and the Jews in Exodus).
5. No one who has already died can be a cylon. Remember in "Whoever Believeth in Me," Caprica told Laura "The Final Five are in the fleet. I can feel them." Not "four" but "five." If they already died, then they can't be in the fleet. (No Zak, Cat, Cain, Ellen, etc.):(
6. Taking all the clues together, we are down to four likely suspects: Dr. Cottle, Lt. Gaeta, Dee Adama, and Zarek.
My money is on Dee Adama for several reasons. She is female (which would balance the male/female ratio of cylons). She is an Adama (Leoben-"Adama is cylon"). Her name Dualla Anastasia (Dualla-Dual, Anastasia-resurrection. Could her name symbolize a double resurrection-one for the human race and one for the cylons?) In terms of personality, she is more reserved (like Tory) than like the other S7 cylons. Also, she has been pivitol in bringing the fleet together on at least two occasions (1. Convincing Adama to go to Kobol to reunite with Laura and her faction. 2. Supporting Lee in going back to New Caprica on the Pegasus just in time to save BSG.)
Maybe we should take bets. I bet the final cylon is Dee. We can review our posts and see how it shapes out!:)

[Gougef]

More Dee:

Directly related to the Olympic Carrier discovery /destruction and eventual escape by the fleet.

Survived a Centurion attack for no apparent reason.

Also, she has been mysteriously MIA for most of Season 4.

[crood]

Inki,

I think the supposition that the Final Five share the genocidal desires of the S7 is a mistake. I don't think they're sleepers waiting to betray the Colonials. Even the S7 don't know who they are.

If anything, I think any split amongst the Cylons was due to the F5 not wanting to attack the humans. The current split amongst the S7 may be mirroring an earlier split. The twos, sixes, and eights are not as committed as they once were.

[redwards95]

Also, she has been mysteriously MIA for most of Season 4.

That's because they figured out her character sucks and they decided to all but write her off the show. :lol: I think there might have been a time when they were leaning towards having her be a cylon, but they clearly decided against it which is why they rather hastily had her separate from Lee during Baltar's trial and the only time we've really seen her this season is when the crew saluted Lee in the hangar deck when he was leaving Galactica. I would be shocked if it is her because there really isn't any reason to care about her character right now. How would she fit with the hybrid's prophecies anyhow? What is she seeking redemption for? Leaving Lee? That doesn't seem like enough.

[Adobe]

Survived a Centurion attack for no apparent reason.

I find this the strongest evidence so far, she didn't even bother to explain why she wasn't even touched.

[Gougef]

Did some research on why we haven't seen much of Dualla yet.

In an interview Kandyse, states that she won't be seen much the first of season 4. It was like a paid vacation. Don't think they would be paying her to stand around unless they had some plans for her, but I guess that could be for contract reasons

[ShadowEnigma]

Billy will come back and rule as Cylon King :D :p

[johnhuk]

Newbie here...first post!

Its interesting reading everyones theories on the subject, and although it doesn't fit in with what we've been told about who the final cylon may or may not be, it would've been cool if not ironic for Tom Zarek to be the final cylon. If only because of RH's original attitude towards the re-imagined series..

If this question has been answered before please forgive me...I had a trawl though the threads but couldn't see it...feel free to point me in the right direction.

Why have the significant seven been told never to discuss the final five or recognise them?

My (albeit weak) theory is this:

The final five were not the first cylon-skinjobs to be created but were created by the original skinjobs, in the image of the creators and other members of the cylon race were upset by this blasphemy, who saw the creators and simply creators not gods to worship as some cylon models may have done (similar to one of the christian 10 commandments regarding making an image/idol of god, similar to something in the muslim faith I believe).

Am I losing the plot or is any part of my ramble feasible?

[timbo]

Newbie here...first post!

Its interesting reading everyones theories on the subject, and although it doesn't fit in with what we've been told about who the final cylon may or may not be, it would've been cool if not ironic for Tom Zarek to be the final cylon. If only because of RH's original attitude towards the re-imagined series..

If this question has been answered before please forgive me...I had a trawl though the threads but couldn't see it...feel free to point me in the right direction.

Why have the significant seven been told never to discuss the final five or recognise them?

My (albeit weak) theory is this:

The final five were not the first cylon-skinjobs to be created but were created by the original skinjobs, in the image of the creators and other members of the cylon race were upset by this blasphemy, who saw the creators and simply creators not gods to worship as some cylon models may have done (similar to one of the christian 10 commandments regarding making an image/idol of god, similar to something in the muslim faith I believe).

Am I losing the plot or is any part of my ramble feasible?

I am honoured to be the first to say hello. Who is the funny looking guy in the photo with you?

Liked your post. Makes sense as a good possibility. Also makes me think that the question of who really created the skinjobs is an important question.

[johnhuk]

I am honoured to be the first to say hello. Who is the funny looking guy in the photo with you?

Liked your post. Makes sense as a good possibility. Also makes me think that the question of who really created the skinjobs is an important question.


Haha Thanks for the welcome! When I get hold of the guy in the photo I'm going to have severe words for overshadowing such a lovely skinjob!

It is an important question and one that I can't wait to hear the answer to!

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

None of the cylons, according to Moore, are based on real people. Surely Adama would know if his sons were cylons.

I need to point out exactly what RDM said, because the above statement isn't true. According to RDM (from here (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Humanoid_Cylons#Notes)):

There is no original human Sharon. The idea is not that there was likely an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these models of Cylon were sort of developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said 'You know what? There's really only 12 of you.' If these are the 12, and sort of if you look at them they each represent different archetypes of what humanity is.

So the Cylons are based on real people, definitely in the plural sense.

[timbo]

I need to point out exactly what RDM said, because the above statement isn't true. According to RDM (from here (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Humanoid_Cylons#Notes)):

There is no original human Sharon. The idea is not that there was likely an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these models of Cylon were sort of developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said 'You know what? There's really only 12 of you.' If these are the 12, and sort of if you look at them they each represent different archetypes of what humanity is.

So the Cylons are based on real people, definitely in the plural sense.


Joe, you are probably gonna think I live in a cave or something, but I only saw that Wiki thing for the first time today. It reads as facts about the show, not opinions, so I assume the writer has, at the least, a channel to verify the info. I have seen references to a "wiki" thing without knowing what it meant. Do you run the BSG Wiki? I hope so. I kinda like the idea that when I was looking for a forum, I landed on the one run by the guy who does the wiki, too.

[constella]

I kinda think Dee is the final cylon.

Remember what Leoben said to Roslin, that "Adama is a cylon", and Dee married Lee and became a Adama. Leoben could have just said it to confuse Roslin, but i'd like to think that he could have told the truth. They did find Kobol just as he told Starbuck. What if somehow in Leoben's subconscious mind he has prophetic powers (just like the women who told no.3 that she'll find Hera on New Caprica) and speaks of the truth without himself knowing that he did?

Also Dee survived an attack when Galactica was boarded by the Centurions, and everyone else in the same place died?

BTW, has anyone considered the possibility that the Final Five might originate from the Guardian cylons?
I think this could explain the "fundamentally different" thing. I kinda wondered why the storyline of the Guardians were introduced in the first place. It was only used as a small story element in the main series but the production put a great effort and even created a series of 2min-web-episodes. It shows them leaving the Ice planet with the victims of the experiment. Could this later be re-introduced to the story and become important in whatever relation it might have?

[Old_Red-Eye]

This is my first post so please be gentle...

After reading these post time after time Admiral Adama is discounted as the final Cylon, why?

There is no family background on him, no stories from Lee about Mom, the only family picture shows Him with his Viper and Lee and Zak, lets face it emotionally he seems stunted towards Lee,
Several of these posts say he can't be a Cylon because he has 2 sons. Can't Lee and Zak have been adopted / abducted to fill/pad out the memories? Boomer on Caprica looked through her past life, looking at pictures of family, all fake.

Lets look at the Galactica Cylons, Tyrol, Tigh, Boomer all on Galactica and part of Adamas extended family. Tigh in particular was shown as a drunk drop-out but hand picked by Adama when he got command of the Galactica for the XO role. If you are the last Cyclon and you are their as a trump card why not keep some troops at hand?

Lastly we know the Cylons have a plan, that they want Earth as their home world, so what if the plan was to flush out a small exodus of humans who would be steered to follow the scriptures and seek Earth as a haven, Adama's idea. What better way to wipe out humanity and do a proper job than to wipe out ALL of the tribes. And who better placed and in charge of the biggest guns.... Admiral Adama

That would be a kicker

[ShadowEnigma]

We do know a decent bit about Adama's background. We've seen flashbacks about his married life. We know about his life as a pilot, and getting back into the fleet (when he found Tigh). We know about his father, and some of the things that occurred between himself, his father, and Lee.

[Starstruck]

I don't think it's out of the question, but I do think it would be difficult to account for. Not only do we know a lot about his past, but we've seen flashbacks of him as a young pilot encountering the first hybrid, so there is quite a back story. Of course, we don't really know what it means to be a final fiver, so I'm not sure the back story really ruins anything.

This is my first post so please be gentle...

After reading these post time after time Admiral Adama is discounted as the final Cylon, why?

There is no family background on him, no stories from Lee about Mom, the only family picture shows Him with his Viper and Lee and Zak, lets face it emotionally he seems stunted towards Lee,
Several of these posts say he can't be a Cylon because he has 2 sons. Can't Lee and Zak have been adopted / abducted to fill/pad out the memories? Boomer on Caprica looked through her past life, looking at pictures of family, all fake.

Lets look at the Galactica Cylons, Tyrol, Tigh, Boomer all on Galactica and part of Adamas extended family. Tigh in particular was shown as a drunk drop-out but hand picked by Adama when he got command of the Galactica for the XO role. If you are the last Cyclon and you are their as a trump card why not keep some troops at hand?

Lastly we know the Cylons have a plan, that they want Earth as their home world, so what if the plan was to flush out a small exodus of humans who would be steered to follow the scriptures and seek Earth as a haven, Adama's idea. What better way to wipe out humanity and do a proper job than to wipe out ALL of the tribes. And who better placed and in charge of the biggest guns.... Admiral Adama

That would be a kicker

[Dzonatas]

I think it was this thread the wondered about where the '12 cylons' first came from.

I watched bits of the miniseries again. and right before the bomb hits outside of Baltar's place, #6 then says 'there are 12 cylons models... I'm Number Six'.

Where did the 'humanoid' bit get into that?

[Inki]

To be honest, I feel a bit untrusting about the producers' general comments and anything that might be deduced friom the "big picture".

However, I believe that the producers may very well have left specific hints about the final cylon in the small details. It would certainly be human to do so. Perhaps a character spontaneously (if not aware of being a cylon) saying or doing something uncharacteristic or otherwise revealing. Anyway, it should be something uncharacteristic, that would be identifiable as a delibaretely inserted hint.

I have mostly noticed things like this for W. Adama (see my previous post). Are there similar observations for other characters? For Lee?

[Howard Nowlan]

Hello!
This is my first ever mailing here, so I thought I'd wade in with my own (no doubt controversial - hopefully!) view on all this.

My guess is the Real question to ask is not 'who is the 5th Cylon', but who is the 'One who cannot be named' (- the 13th Lord of Cobalt (?) who is probably the protector of Earth and possibly the one who rescued humanity when things went so awry on Cobalt).

It's pretty clear that Bill Adama has been working to a 'black ops' game plan ever since the armistice was signed at the end of the first conflict over 40 years ago (the Razor Flashbacks) - let's face it, anyone who had discovered something of the magnitude he did would have to now be working deep inside the chain of command (Hero), so his whole relationship with Tigh (see the Deleted scenes) and his team (Thrace & Tyrell especially) and others brought into the equation (Apollo, Helo, Roslyn) are within those operational lines.

It's also pretty clear that the entire war - sprinkled with periods of both lull and intensity - has been going on since an original Exodus (from Olympus?) and is now reaching the final act.

I could say more, but let's get some feedback on this approach.
If this angle is in the right ballpark, then I am totally in awe of Ron Moore's ability (he who gave us all that was dark in DS9) to dazzle whilst the real story is very much yet to be revealed...

Let discussion and the end game commence, and watch out for the Archons... :)
(Star Trek Fans - reference TOS episodes 22 & 33).

[ermyes2002]

I'm leaning towards the fifth already having been revealed in the form of Kendra Shaw. She was looking for redemption for her killing of the civilians on the Scylla and even told the first hybrid she was looking for forgiveness (=redemption I guess). This came in a howl of terrible suffering when she blew the entire baseship to smithereens. RDM knew who the last cylon was from season 1, I guess this could either be Tigh or Tyrol. Perhaps this one has already been revealed with the F4, and the fifth didn't show up because she's dead.

[pagad]

We need more exotic theories!

Maybe the final Cylon isn't a human model...

Maybe the final Cylon is the battlestar Pegasus!

Seeking redemption from her bloody past, she died in a howl of terrible suffering (why was I lumped with such a moronic commander...)

...or maybe not. Ho hum.

(I've been drinking caffiene since 5AM).

[Starstruck]

Hello!
This is my first ever mailing here, so I thought I'd wade in with my own (no doubt controversial - hopefully!) view on all this.

My guess is the Real question to ask is not 'who is the 5th Cylon', but who is the 'One who cannot be named' (- the 13th Lord of Cobalt (?) who is probably the protector of Earth and possibly the one who rescued humanity when things went so awry on Cobalt).

It's pretty clear that Bill Adama has been working to a 'black ops' game plan ever since the armistice was signed at the end of the first conflict over 40 years ago (the Razor Flashbacks) - let's face it, anyone who had discovered something of the magnitude he did would have to now be working deep inside the chain of command (Hero), so his whole relationship with Tigh (see the Deleted scenes) and his team (Thrace & Tyrell especially) and others brought into the equation (Apollo, Helo, Roslyn) are within those operational lines.

It's also pretty clear that the entire war - sprinkled with periods of both lull and intensity - has been going on since an original Exodus (from Olympus?) and is now reaching the final act.

I could say more, but let's get some feedback on this approach.
If this angle is in the right ballpark, then I am totally in awe of Ron Moore's ability (he who gave us all that was dark in DS9) to dazzle whilst the real story is very much yet to be revealed...

Let discussion and the end game commence, and watch out for the Archons... :)
(Star Trek Fans - reference TOS episodes 22 & 33).

Hi, Howard and welcome!

I didn't particularly like the Hero episode, but I have been hoping the special ops storyline and the fact that Adama and Bulldog instigated the last leg of the war, unintentionally, would come back. I think it might be significant, or they could decide to leave it alone. I got the impression that Adama was only involved in that mission for 5 years or so back, not back the full 40 years, but they left that a bit open.

[ranvir]

I have heard references to the "last supper" picture and that apparently no one in it is the final cylon. I checked it out on Google and thought it looked really cool, but can someone explain what it is supposed to depict... What is going on here? Does it have any significance beyond telling us who is not the final cylon?

[ranvir]

Also is it really true that only people who have been around since season one are viable candidates for the final cylon?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Here are a few links to get you up to speed:

The Last Supper

Humanoid Cylon speculation

Also, since this is the "final cylon speculation thread", I'm going to point out that I've just did some tweakage to my own theory that I had published on Associated Content back in October. It's located here (http://en.battlestarpegasus.com/wiki/The_Last_Cylon:_Who_is_the_Fifth_of_the_Final_Five _in_%22Battlestar_Galactica%22). (I deliberately do not include the prophecies from the hybrids, since the article was written before those were revealed... Not that it honestly changes my mind at all, since the one I think is there is struggling for redemption.)

[ranvir]

Thanks! Well that clears things up. It certainly seems that Kendra Shaw is still in the running (just because they have been mulling over who would be the final Cylon since the end of season one doesn't mean it has to be a character from season one). I posted my reasons for thinking she is the final Cylon on the thread about Cottle being the final Cylon: http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1037&page=4.

One thing that supports your Lee theory is that the models are supposed to represent the Cylon's observations of humanity. As you've keenly noted, and as the show has made clear (from the statements of both Zarek and Lampkin), the son that rebels against his father is an iconic human relation. The question then arises, however, who is the father? Maybe the Cylon God, which Lee will end up rebelling against to protect humanity? Seems plausible.

This brings up an interesting question though... Well, more accurately, the whole Cylon project of trying to base their models off the "types" of humans that exist motivates an interesting question. Namely, why the hell do the Cylons think they’re so superior/different from humanity if they're fundamentally based on the species? I have never been able to make any sense of that… If they truly are based on humanity, then they are more than just the children of humanity: they practically are human and thus are victims of the same defects (although also capable of the same virtues).

[Changp]

Well i have a theory, what if the final five are not cylons at all. I explain myself, what if these cylons are some kind of third species that created (or maybe manipulated) the old cylons to evolve into a more organic body just as we see the other seven cylons.

[wpgunit]

I have posted my thoughts in a different thread, although you still need to hear my opinion.

Helo is the last cylon.

#1 he is a main charecter since S1
#2 he chose to stay on caprica at the beginning
# 3 he disappeared for a while on caprica
# 4 right hand man to many commanding officers
# 5 he has just gotten by in the series, he is becoming more involved as the story progresses. Although we won't see his true colours until further into the series.

[5th Cylon]

I have posted my thoughts in a different thread, although you still need to hear my opinion.

Helo is the last cylon.

#1 he is a main charecter since S1
#2 he chose to stay on caprica at the beginning
# 3 he disappeared for a while on caprica
# 4 right hand man to many commanding officers
# 5 he has just gotten by in the series, he is becoming more involved as the story progresses. Although we won't see his true colours until further into the series.

I am starting to think the character is not in the last supper picture is BS, because that makes sense but he is in the last Supper picture. Personally not taking LS picture into consideration i pick Starbuck, else i go with Gaeta

[wpgunit]

i am still having a hard time coming to reason with starbuck as the final cylon.

Although I am starting to come to terms. With the reserection of her death. As the main theme is this has happened and will happen again one starts to think about the circle of life. Whether is be human or cylon.

Could earth be the "promised land"? Just as Laura Roslyn saw as she was on the boat during her vision?

I cannot wait to find out, and it sure is hard not to read the spoilers.

[wpgunit]

I am starting to think the character is not in the last supper picture is BS, because that makes sense but he is in the last Supper picture. Personally not taking LS picture into consideration i pick Starbuck, else i go with Gaeta


This all came from another source, but it makes alot of sense.

The fact that Tory is not in the picture, could mean that the last cylon is in this picture.

Also the fact that the "HEAD BALTAR" is in play, could mean that Baltar is the last cylon.

RDM has been known to lie.

Enjoy.

[5th Cylon]

This all came from another source, but it makes alot of sense.

The fact that Tory is not in the picture, could mean that the last cylon is in this picture.

Also the fact that the "HEAD BALTAR" is in play, could mean that Baltar is the last cylon.

RDM has been known to lie.

Enjoy.

Yeah somebody else mentioned this in another thread, that Torry in theory could be the last cylon(or #12) so RDM's statement is not a lie

i am still having a hard time coming to reason with starbuck as the final cylon.

All those wierd pictures she does and the fact the final 5 cylons will lead everybody to earth(which describes her more then anybody). Leoban's interest in her. Way more stuff to mention but those the big 3 things.

[turkey]

The last Cylon is Roslin-I know they said she's not, but, sorry guys, it's obvious. When she talked about the four, D'Anna already had Roslin, who was the only "human" besides Baltar (who D'Anna has personal affection for) that wasn't going to be killed in Revelations.

Also, think about the Opera House. Five people in it, but only four have the visions. They go out of their way to show us that Baltar doesn't. But who does and what do they have in common: Six=Cylon; Athena=Cylon; Hera=Cylon. Therefore: Roslin=______.

[genji2000]

The last Cylon is Roslin-I know they said she's not, but, sorry guys, it's obvious.

Wow, thanks for pointing that out to us. Glad you're on board. You might want to have a word with Starstruck.

When she talked about the four, D'Anna already had Roslin, who was the only "human" besides Baltar (and Helo, and half the colonial fleet) (who D'Anna has personal affection for) that wasn't going to be killed in Revelations.

Also, think about the Opera House. Five people in it, but only four have the visions. They go out of their way to show us that Baltar doesn't. Did I miss that bit as well? He hasn't admitted it but he does know about the visions because he told the fleet about them in his podcast. But who does and what do they have in common: Six=Cylon; Athena=Cylon; Hera=Cylon (half-Cylon) . Therefore: Roslin=______. What's the answer? Go on, tell us.

[turkey]

Baltar is very clear in one of the recent episodes when he just throws it out, for no apparent reason, really, that he hasn't seen the opera house visions himself.

Edit: oh, and remember that in Revelations, the three was going to nuke the entire civilian fleet and execute all her hostages on the basestar except for Roslin and Baltar.

This means the last Cylon was either on the Galactica (with the other 4) or was Roslin or Baltar. And we know it ain't Baltar.

[genji2000]

Baltar is very clear in one of the recent episodes when he just throws it out, for no apparent reason, really, that he hasn't seen the opera house visions himself.

When - can you be more specific? I may have really missed it.

Edit: oh, and remember that in Revelations, the three was going to nuke the entire civilian fleet and execute all her hostages on the basestar except for Roslin and Baltar.

When did she say except Roslin and Baltar?

This means the last Cylon was either on the Galactica (with the other 4) or was Roslin or Baltar. And we know it ain't Baltar.

How do we know it ain't Baltar - he's my second choice. Damn.

[Houndowl]

I (mis)posted this in the "General" subforum. Typical nugget mistake, still figuring out the organizational structure of these forums. Here it is again, for your consideration.

============

This possibility occurred to me a couple weeks back. After watching "Revelations", I think it's correct.

The final Cylon will be Tigh & Caprica 6's child.

The F4 were different than the S7, and the final one might be still more different and special. The first child of Cylon/Cylon parents would be a big deal.

It sorta fits the old man hybrid's prophecy. "And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering." Childbirth? The "hungering for redemption" part doesn't fit, but the rest does.

It would explain why the fifth is not currently in the fleet (according to 3, who could be lying of course).

On the downside, the various visions of the Final Five seem to show five adults.

[turkey]

I can't remember what episode it was, but Baltar definitely said it. Roslin was with Baltar, not with the rest of the humans who were being threatened. We know it's not Baltar for a lot of reasons, mostly because he's sure that he's not a Cylon himself.

Oh, btw, what is the final cylon hungering for redemption for? Remember when they said that the final five have come from the home of the 13th? Who do you imagine nuked Earth?

[turkey]

Oh, right, and remember when Helo told the three she was going to see Roslin, and instead of snapping him like a twig and heading on, she went along. Her "joke" on Roslin could very easily have been feeling her out to see if Roslin knew what she was.

Then she takes one look at Tigh and Tori, sees Anders and Tyrol together, and realizes that the last four know exactly what they are.

[UncleFracker]

Has anyone come up with this: PYTHIA

Dom Dom DOM!!!

[5th Cylon]

going on wierder people it could be, Kara's mom

even though she not a main charcter it gives the ending a huge suprise of note(kara is a hybrid), therefore making the last supper picture true while showing Starbuck had a bigger purpose

[smelly_feet]

Its the president. The fifth will suffer - The president will suffer from cancer.
Can't be starbuck, she's too busy catalyzing the apocalypse.

Sorry guys but Adama will die. I think that is part of the emotional ending. This is to prepare us for the new series Caprica in which young William Adama will be one of the characters.

[genji2000]

Has anyone come up with this: PYTHIA

Dom Dom DOM!!!

Pythia? Oh pyth off.

[R. Silon]

R. Silon
Nugget

Join Date: Jun 2008
On Episode: 4.10 Revelations
Posts: 1

The final Cylon is really President Roslin. This is reaching, but her name is similar to an anagram. Roslin = R. Silon (Revered Cylon). Notice the when she receives the camala from Tori on the bay star a few minutes later the music begins in the other four revered Cylons. Maybe the camala is blocking her activation or causing the activation of the other four. Also, I beleive the revered Cylons are revered because they are half-human (super hybrids). Just my 2 cents. R. Silon.

[Virismahla]

I think the 5th cylon would be someone quite established on the show. But then, Tory was a mere minor character, and she turned out to be a cylon. Anyway, I don't believe the last cylon is dead. When D'anna said that she only wanted the 4 cylons on the fleet, it could mean 2 things: the 5th was already on the cylon baseship, or she knew the 5th would never join her voluntarily. If the 5th was already on the baseship, then it has to be Roslin. D'anna could threaten to kill Roslin and she'd have a better chance of Lee backing down. She didn't. And if the 5th was on the Galactica, why would she not ask for him/her as well? If it was Gaeta or Duella, why not ask for them? If she could ask for Tigh, she could ask for anyone. Apart from Tigh (obvious cylon hater since the beginning), the only people she knew would never join her are the Adamas.

Personally, I have no one I like for the 5th yet.

BTW, Helo can't be the 5th. Obviously, Hera is very important (a lot more than Tyrol and Cally's son). If Helo is a cylon, Hera would be a full-fledged cylon. I would think a cylon-human hybrid (like Nicky) would be more important. Could Cally really be the 5th? But how would D'anna know about Cally's death? Caprica-Six is pregnant with a full-fledged cylon baby as well. Right now, it seems we have 2 half-cylon kids and 1 unborn full cylon baby. Yet only Hera seems important. Since we learned from the beginning that cylons can't reproduce (by themselves), why isn't the fact that Caprica-Six is pregnant with a full cylon baby have a greater impact?

The speculations continue...

[eirikr]

This may not be a viable idea, but given that Ron Moore (allegedly) said the Final is not one of those in the "Last Supper" photo, could it be that the Final Cylon's consciousness is split between several models? Or that Head Six and Head Baltar are actually a single consciousness?

The absence of a Number Seven in the Significant Seven irks me. Somehow I think all the skinjobs have been around far longer than has been implied and that they are not evolved Cylons but that they were already "out there" somewhere and they hijacked the Cylons that left the Twelve Colonies.

[genji2000]

This may not be a viable idea, but given that Ron Moore (allegedly) said the Final is not one of those in the "Last Supper" photo, could it be that the Final Cylon's consciousness is split between several models? Or that Head Six and Head Baltar are actually a single consciousness?

The absence of a Number Seven in the Significant Seven irks me. Somehow I think all the skinjobs have been around far longer than has been implied and that they are not evolved Cylons but that they were already "out there" somewhere and they hijacked the Cylons that left the Twelve Colonies.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this sounds a bit like sWozzie's amazing cyclon theory. It's zany. It's wacky. It's totally not going to happen. But give it a try. You might like it: http://battlestarrevealed.wordpress.com/

[eirikr]

I hadn't seen that particular theory before. I'm not wild about it, nor do I really like my own undeveloped version, primarily because of the mystical nature of the idea. Pretty much anything can happen when you drag in the supernatural. I like my sci-fi plausible, or at least enough so to convince me. I hope Head Six's "One God" turns out to be some super advanced lunatic AI!

[sWozzie]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this sounds a bit like sWozzie's amazing cyclon theory. It's zany. It's wacky. It's totally not going to happen. But give it a try. You might like it: http://battlestarrevealed.wordpress.com/

:lol: I can't help but think your a secret admirer of the theory ;)

[genji2000]

I hadn't seen that particular theory before. I'm not wild about it, nor do I really like my own undeveloped version, primarily because of the mystical nature of the idea. Pretty much anything can happen when you drag in the supernatural. I like my sci-fi plausible, or at least enough so to convince me. I hope Head Six's "One God" turns out to be some super advanced lunatic AI!

I guess it'll go one of two ways. It'll either be completely sci-fi and explain everything that's happened in rational scientific means, and by inference say that in our own real world there is no god and everything can (and one day will) be explained by science. Or it could leave a lot of questions unanswered and reflect our own world inasmuch as it's down to the individual what they believe in. I'd prefer the latter.

:lol: I can't help but think your a secret admirer of the theory ;)

I do admire the amount of effort you've put into it and how you've stuck with it for a while now, although I suppose, with no weekly episodes coming out to disprove any parts of it at the moment, that's bound to be the case. Personally I don't want the head characters to be explained at all in the show, but I think the general consensus is that they will be.

[eirikr]

I'm not completely opposed to the more mystical side of things. I originally thought that Head Six and Head Baltar were representations of the Jungian archetypes of the anima and animus, respectively, of Baltar and Six.

I'm secretly hopeful that the show surprises all of us but I still keep trying to figure it out before the end. A perversion of human nature that RD has exploited brilliantly :)

[genji2000]

I'm not completely opposed to the more mystical side of things. I originally thought that Head Six and Head Baltar were representations of the Jungian archetypes of the anima and animus, respectively, of Baltar and Six.

For the sake of ignoramuses like myself, could you summarise why you think Head Baltar and Head Six represent Jungian archetypes? It sounds interesting but I don't want to put in a ton of effort researching it.

[mikey728]

I think the 5th cylon would be someone quite established on the show. But then, Tory was a mere minor character, and she turned out to be a cylon. Anyway, I don't believe the last cylon is dead. When D'anna said that she only wanted the 4 cylons on the fleet, it could mean 2 things: the 5th was already on the cylon baseship, or she knew the 5th would never join her voluntarily. If the 5th was already on the baseship, then it has to be Roslin. D'anna could threaten to kill Roslin and she'd have a better chance of Lee backing down. She didn't. And if the 5th was on the Galactica, why would she not ask for him/her as well? If it was Gaeta or Duella, why not ask for them? If she could ask for Tigh, she could ask for anyone. Apart from Tigh (obvious cylon hater since the beginning), the only people she knew would never join her are the Adamas.

Personally, I have no one I like for the 5th yet.

BTW, Helo can't be the 5th. Obviously, Hera is very important (a lot more than Tyrol and Cally's son). If Helo is a cylon, Hera would be a full-fledged cylon. I would think a cylon-human hybrid (like Nicky) would be more important. Could Cally really be the 5th? But how would D'anna know about Cally's death? Caprica-Six is pregnant with a full-fledged cylon baby as well. Right now, it seems we have 2 half-cylon kids and 1 unborn full cylon baby. Yet only Hera seems important. Since we learned from the beginning that cylons can't reproduce (by themselves), why isn't the fact that Caprica-Six is pregnant with a full cylon baby have a greater impact?

The speculations continue...


This whole post just made me think the final cylon is six's baby! The full fledged cylon baby she's carrying. Its sin is that it was born out of wed lock lol.

[genji2000]

This whole post just made me think the final cylon is six's baby! The full fledged cylon baby she's carrying. Its sin is that it was born out of wed lock lol.

And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.

Sounds a bit literal, don't you think?

[mikey728]

And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.

Sounds a bit literal, don't you think?

Yea ROFL

[eirikr]

For the sake of ignoramuses like myself, could you summarise why you think Head Baltar and Head Six represent Jungian archetypes? It sounds interesting but I don't want to put in a ton of effort researching it.

Well, these are the names that Jung used for the soul. A man has an anima and a woman has an animus. In dreams the soul is supposed to appear as a person of the opposite sex of the dreamer.

These archetypes contain the things that a person has repressed from consciousness. (Baltar is an atheist and a rationalist on the surface, while Head Six is very religious. Note that Baltar has had fewer interactions with Head Six since he became a "cult leader")

I don't think this has much to do with the show, it was just an idea. BSG is sort of mythological in scope, and Jung was all about mythology!

[eirikr]

P.S. My guess is Kara's father will be the Final Cylon.

[genji2000]

Well, these are the names that Jung used for the soul. A man has an anima and a woman has an animus. In dreams the soul is supposed to appear as a person of the opposite sex of the dreamer.

These archetypes contain the things that a person has repressed from consciousness. (Baltar is an atheist and a rationalist on the surface, while Head Six is very religious. Note that Baltar has had fewer interactions with Head Six since he became a "cult leader")

I don't think this has much to do with the show, it was just an idea. BSG is sort of mythological in scope, and Jung was all about mythology!

Oh I don't know; it is interesting and it sounds like it might well have been an influence on the Writers. I like it a lot better than the head characters being ghosts hanging around in space waiting to jump into innocent human hosts.

P.S. I hope not.

[michaels]

The 5th cylon is the fans of the show.

And the fifth still in shadow (in the dark about where the show is headed),
will claw toward the light (will gradually understand as the episodes are revealed)
hungering for redemption (eager to find out if the time & effort they've put into the show were worth it.)
that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering (the long break between seasons, and complaints when they finally find out how it ends).

Michael

[timbo]

I'm not completely opposed to the more mystical side of things. I originally thought that Head Six and Head Baltar were representations of the Jungian archetypes of the anima and animus, respectively, of Baltar and Six.

I'm secretly hopeful that the show surprises all of us but I still keep trying to figure it out before the end. A perversion of human nature that RD has exploited brilliantly :)

I like your Jung allusion. If it were something along these lines, it would work for me. I think Jung was among the first to try to put together spiritual ideas with what we then understood of human psychology. He played an important part in the formation of AA. He helped to form the idea of a spiritual recovery that begins with our more earthbound psychological problems; basically to to eliminate as much anger, fear and guilt as possible as these are the things that block our spirits. His ideas were not that mystical on the whole, and his main idea that we all in search of our souls seems to me like a pretty good way of approaching things.

The show seems to be pretty eclectic in it´s sources of ideas, drawing from religion, history, politics, mythology and so on, and I think if you took the most sensible parts of all the religions, therapies, etc., you would have a pretty good road map.

I keep changing my mind about what is the main thread of the story, and at the moment, I keep thinking about Adama´s gradual transformation from soldier atheist to slowly coming to believe that there are forces at work in the universe beyond our understanding. Probaly, I will see in the end that there are six or seven big stories going on, woven together into an epic Odissey. Yeah, that´s what it is - an odissey, and Adama is Ulysses, and the sixes are sirens. Tigh is the cyclops. With a chip.

[genji2000]

I keep changing my mind about what is the main thread of the story... and [Jung's] main idea that we [are] all in search of our souls seems to me like a pretty good way of approaching things.

...Adama is Ulysses, and the sixes are sirens. Tigh is the cyclops. With a chip.

You wouldn't let it lie, would you?

[Batman316]

The 5th cylon is the fans of the show.

And the fifth still in shadow (in the dark about where the show is headed),
will claw toward the light (will gradually understand as the episodes are revealed)
hungering for redemption (eager to find out if the time & effort they've put into the show were worth it.)
that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering (the long break between seasons, and complaints when they finally find out how it ends).

Michael

............I hate you

lol

[genji2000]

This man died.

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/thumb/3/3a/Armistice_officer_001.jpg/200px-Armistice_officer_001.jpg

Now, sorry if this has been examined before on the forum, but I find it highly suspicious that this next man appeared out of nowhere only after the other man had died.

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/thumb/f/f8/CharlieConnor.jpg/200px-CharlieConnor.jpg

Plus the first man had a son. His name was Boxey. What happened to him, eh?

And the other man had a son. His name was Kevin. He was a ginger. He died.

Coincidence?

[eirikr]

I like your Jung allusion. If it were something along these lines, it would work for me. I think Jung was among the first to try to put together spiritual ideas with what we then understood of human psychology. He played an important part in the formation of AA. He helped to form the idea of a spiritual recovery that begins with our more earthbound psychological problems; basically to to eliminate as much anger, fear and guilt as possible as these are the things that block our spirits. His ideas were not that mystical on the whole, and his main idea that we all in search of our souls seems to me like a pretty good way of approaching things.

The show seems to be pretty eclectic in it´s sources of ideas, drawing from religion, history, politics, mythology and so on, and I think if you took the most sensible parts of all the religions, therapies, etc., you would have a pretty good road map.

I keep changing my mind about what is the main thread of the story, and at the moment, I keep thinking about Adama´s gradual transformation from soldier atheist to slowly coming to believe that there are forces at work in the universe beyond our understanding. Probaly, I will see in the end that there are six or seven big stories going on, woven together into an epic Odissey. Yeah, that´s what it is - an odissey, and Adama is Ulysses, and the sixes are sirens. Tigh is the cyclops. With a chip.

I appreciate your comments.

I sort of dislike the transformation in Adama, though I expected it. It was appealing that a "good guy" character was unabashedly a non-believer.

One issue I would take with the comments: A person can still be an atheist and acknowledge forces beyond understanding. I will be disappointed if Adama becomes a fervent believer in "the gods" or a god, as if just because unexplainable events occur there must be some supernatural deity behind them.

My favorite transformation is Baltar's. He is an atheist in the beginning and now a "religious fanatic", yet still fundamentally a self-absorbed, ego-driven asshole.

[smelly_feet]

The 5th cylon is the fans of the show.

And the fifth still in shadow (in the dark about where the show is headed),
will claw toward the light (will gradually understand as the episodes are revealed)
hungering for redemption (eager to find out if the time & effort they've put into the show were worth it.)
that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering (the long break between seasons, and complaints when they finally find out how it ends).

Michael

lol nice one Michael, well put.

I watched the miniseries again. When six says "Its about time" to an unrevealed person, I bet thats who we should be looking for, whether or not that person is the final cylon.

[Chiefchess]

Wouldn't it be fun (but not likely) that the final cylon is Cally? Imagine the possibilities. The fleet get a mysterious distress signal from Earth (probably Cally freaking out "Dear gods, I'm a skinjob!"). There is friction between herself and Tyrol (for obvious reasons), the likelihood of violence (Tory, you are soooooooo dead meat) and the guilt she would experience for her attempting to kill Nicholas.
This would explain alot-the fifth, still in shadow, seeking redemption that will only come through the howl of terrible suffering. Cally needs to redeem herself to the cylons, the fleet, Tyrol, Nicholas, maybe even to Boomer. Also, maybe that is why Nicholas is not getting the attention that Hera is getting. Maybe, like Caprica and Tigh's baby, a pure cylon child is not as uncommon or as special as we would think.
Do I seriously think Cally is the final cylon? Not really, but I do believe it is a character that has already died. Starbuck, Roslin, and Adama are too obvious.

[michaels]

lol nice one Michael, well put.

I watched the miniseries again. When six says "Its about time" to an unrevealed person, I bet thats who we should be looking for, whether or not that person is the final cylon.

I posted that only half in jest. The only other work I followed as closely (religiously?) as BSG was Stephen King's Dark Tower series, and he ended up inserting himself into it in a big way (much to its detriment, IMHO). That and a the loop like nature of the ending killed the whole thing for me. (And if you think waiting 6 months between seasons is bad, try waiting 5+ years between books).

There is already the loop/all this has happened before, etc. vibe in BSG, so who's to say that the 5th cylon won't be the fans, and that the one who's name must not be spoken doesn't turn out to be RDM himself, the creator of the cylons and humans? (Let's hope not).

As far as the unshown person the 6 speaks to, I don't think we will ever find out who it is. I'm fine with that. I've always assumed it was simply another one of the humanoid models and the intent of the scene was to show that there were others like her and that she wasn't acting alone.

Michael

[Osprey]

"Wouldn't it be fun (but not likely) that the final cylon is Cally?"

um, no ...
/jus' sayin' ...

[dnynumberone]

Let's talk about the final episode first. It takes all five of the final five to find Earth, correct? Assuming Adm. Adama is a cylon, then the entire final five were all present in the same room at the same time, the hangar, upon Adama's return from finding the base-ship with Rosilyn etc. And it is not long after all five are in the hangar (with Kara's Viper presumably nearby) that the four receive the second signal/song which leads to finding the beacon that leads to Earth.

In the same episode, when Adama first discovers Tigh is one of the final five, he has a complete breakdown...gets drunk, punches a mirror, semi-passes out and Lee is dragging him across the ground. And, apparently, he got that ridiculously drunk in the presumed 20 minutes it took to take Tigh down to the airlock. Adama wasn't drunk! He was having a system crash! He was caught in a logical bind.

Assuming he's the fifth, you could also assume he's programmed to work *only* with *both* humans *and* cylons, and he *must* find Earth. Only two options were available when Tigh revealed himself, 1) Kill Tigh, and not find Earth, or 2) Let Tigh go, and the Cylons destroy the humans, and they don't find Earth. Adama was booting in safe mode!

There are also clues in the 2 episodes leading up to the mid-season finale.

At the end of Episode 8, who decided to stay solo in a Raptor on a popularly dubbed "suicide mission" which just happened to connect D'Anna with the final five? And when he's leaving, he talks to Lee, and mentions one of his first duties in the fleet was a solo recon deep in enemy territory, i.e. perfect chances to be abducted and implanted with a virus.

In Episode 9, he's reading to Rosilyn in a vision of hers. He's reading a book, and the final line is "The cylon had saved my life, and I had done it no service." Sounds pretty empathetic towards Cylon kind.

Going to the mini-series that began Galactica, Adama was responsible for keeping Galactica from being networked, thereby making it the one ship in the colonial fleet to survive (ignoring Pegasus). And without Galactica, the civilian fleet would probably have been destroyed fairly quickly. And without the humans, no Earth!

And to begin the episode, Adama gives a speech which somewhat eerily predicts the destruction about to happen.

Finally, the odds are fairly staggering that three (and maybe four) of the final five cylons were all placed on the same ship which was the lone survivor. The way militaries work, what're the chances they'd all be assigned to the same ship? Well, as Admiral, he would be able to pull all the necessary strings to make sure Tirol, Tigh, and possibly Tory all ended up on the same ship.

Oh, something neat I just thought of too, going by the names they're most commonly referred to, the final five would then be Adama, Tirol, Tigh, Tory, Anders, a neat anagram.

[dnynumberone]

One other thing - whoever the fifth is, seems they're gonna be like the cylon head-honcho, since they haven't been revealed yet. Adama and Rosilyn suddenly falling so deeply in love this season, well what better way to unify Human and Cylon than if the leaders of both were married and in love?

[genji2000]

Let's talk about the final episode first. It takes all five of the final five to find Earth, correct?

No, not necessarily. We've yet to learn the purpose of the Final Five, as have they. I doubt they exist solely to guide the fleet to Earth.

Assuming Adm. Adama is a cylon, then the entire final five were all present in the same room at the same time, the hangar, upon Adama's return from finding the base-ship with Rosilyn etc. And it is not long after all five are in the hangar (with Kara's Viper presumably nearby) that the four receive the second signal/song which leads to finding the beacon that leads to Earth.

So, considering Tory felt the call/heard the music all that way away on the Basestar, why didn't Adama hear it down the corridor? Why didn't he hear it at the Ionian Nebula? Why didn't he have a clue what Tigh was talking about when he described it at the nebula?

In the same episode, when Adama first discovers Tigh is one of the final five, he has a complete breakdown...gets drunk, punches a mirror, semi-passes out and Lee is dragging him across the ground. And, apparently, he got that ridiculously drunk in the presumed 20 minutes it took to take Tigh down to the airlock. Adama wasn't drunk! He was having a system crash! He was caught in a logical bind.

Sorry, I thought you were serious for a moment there. Nice one. :lol: Very funny.

Assuming he's the fifth, you could also assume he's programmed to work *only* with *both* humans *and* cylons, and he *must* find Earth.

You *could*, but why *bother*?

Only two options were available when Tigh revealed himself, 1) Kill Tigh, and not find Earth, or 2) Let Tigh go, and the Cylons destroy the humans, and they don't find Earth. Adama was booting in safe mode!

There are also clues in the 2 episodes leading up to the mid-season finale.

At the end of Episode 8, who decided to stay solo in a Raptor on a popularly

Singularly?

dubbed "suicide mission" which just happened to connect D'Anna with the final five? And when he's leaving, he talks to Lee, and mentions one of his first duties in the fleet was a solo recon deep in enemy territory, i.e. perfect chances to be abducted and implanted with a virus.

Timbo might want to remould this thought for you.

In Episode 9, he's reading to Rosilyn

Who?

in a vision of hers. He's reading a book, and the final line is "The cylon had saved my life, and I had done it no service." Sounds pretty empathetic towards Cylon kind.

lol. "This island had saved my life," not "the Cylon."

Going to the mini-series that began Galactica, Adama was responsible for keeping Galactica from being networked, thereby making it the one ship in the colonial fleet to survive (ignoring Pegasus).

(Best option).

And without Galactica, the civilian fleet would probably have been destroyed fairly quickly. And without the humans, no Earth!

No, Earth would still be there, and it wouldn't matter to the Cylons if it took them five years or five thousand years, they could still find it. Without the humans, no destruction of the Resurrection Hub.

And to begin the episode, Adama gives a speech which somewhat eerily predicts the destruction about to happen.

Finally, the odds are fairly staggering that three (and maybe four) of the final five cylons were all placed on the same ship which was the lone survivor. The way militaries work, what're the chances they'd all be assigned to the same ship?

They're the Final Five. Where did you think they were going to end up?

Well, as Admiral, he would be able to pull all the necessary strings to make sure Tirol, Tigh, and possibly Tory all ended up on the same ship.

Tory wasn't on the Galactica when the Cylons attacked, though she has visited it since Billy died and she took over his role.

Oh, something neat I just thought of too, going by the names they're most commonly referred to, the final five would then be Adama, Tirol, Tigh, Tory, Anders, a neat anagram.

An anagram of what? "A mandala, thy gods' territory"?

One other thing - whoever the fifth is, seems they're gonna be like the cylon head-honcho, since they haven't been revealed yet. Adama and Rosilyn suddenly falling so deeply in love this season, well what better way to unify Human and Cylon than if the leaders of both were married and in love?

And one of them was dead from cancer.

This (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=22463&postcount=80) is much funnier.

Welcome to the forum, though, and well done.

[dnynumberone]

"why didn't Adama hear it down the corridor? Why didn't he hear it at the Ionian Nebula? Why didn't he have a clue what Tigh was talking about when he described it at the nebula?" - that's a specious argument. they haven't shown any fifth person hearing the song. does that mean no one is the fifth? no, it's just editing by the directors of the show to keep things in suspense. they'll come up with a reason why "whoever" didn't hear the song, they were programmed not to or whatever...

"(Best option.)" - do you mean leaving bsg un-networked was the best option? only in HINDSIGHT. BEFORE the cylon attack, every admiral in the fleet would have bitched up a storm that bsg wasn't networked when it offers so many advantages.

"No, Earth would still be there, and it wouldn't matter to the Cylons if it took them five years or five thousand years, they could still find it. Without the humans, no destruction of the Resurrection Hub." - the cylons knew they needed the final five to find earth, and they knew the final five were with the humans, thus, the cylons never wanted to destroy humanity completely, just most of them, so they could find earth.

"They're the Final Five. Where did you think they were going to end up?" - exactly. divine intervention was required to make sure the final five were still alive following the attack, considering the final five hadn't the faintest clue whom they really were. to make sure they were alll alive and on the same ship would seem to require some level of subliminal programming on adama's part.

[genji2000]

"why didn't Adama hear it down the corridor? Why didn't he hear it at the Ionian Nebula? Why didn't he have a clue what Tigh was talking about when he described it at the nebula?" - that's a specious argument. they haven't shown any fifth person hearing the song. does that mean no one is the fifth?

It could mean the Fifth wasn't at the Ionian Nebula yet.

no, it's just editing by the directors of the show to keep things in suspense. they'll come up with a reason why "whoever" didn't hear the song, they were programmed not to or whatever...

Maybe that the Fifth wasn't at the Ionian Nebula yet.

"(Best option.)" - do you mean leaving bsg un-networked was the best option? only in HINDSIGHT. BEFORE the cylon attack, every admiral in the fleet would have bitched up a storm that bsg wasn't networked when it offers so many advantages.

No, I meant "(ignoring Pegasus)" was the best option.

"No, Earth would still be there, and it wouldn't matter to the Cylons if it took them five years or five thousand years, they could still find it. Without the humans, no destruction of the Resurrection Hub." - the cylons knew they needed the final five to find earth, and they knew the final five were with the humans, thus, the cylons never wanted to destroy humanity completely, just most of them, so they could find earth.

Which Cylons? The Cavil contingent specifically didn't want the Final Five, and believed they'd find Earth without them, even if it took five thousand years.

"They're the Final Five. Where did you think they were going to end up?" - exactly. divine intervention was required to make sure the final five were still alive following the attack, considering the final five hadn't the faintest clue whom they really were. to make sure they were alll alive and on the same ship would seem to require some level of subliminal programming on adama's part.

"to make sure they were alll alive and on the same ship would seem to require some level of subliminal programming" - yes, that's my suspicion. Their Final Five programming would have guided them into whatever position they needed to be in, in order to operate within the surviving population of the colonies. The alternative is that (gods forbid) the WTF are actually humans that are possessed by FFg.

"on adama's part" - I don't think so. I thought you were kidding about Adama.

[dnynumberone]

Kidding? No way! I'm 98% sure it's Adama. (And if Adm. Adama were part cylon it would explain many of the reasons people suspect Lee of being a cylon.) 1% of me thinks maybe it could be the doc, maybe.


The final 1% of me thinks, then again, this show has more than a few times made me loudly exclaim "WTF?!" Things don't always make sense on this show. I'm somewhat expecting another "WTF?!" moment.

[genji2000]

Kidding? No way! I'm 98% sure it's Adama. (And if Adm. Adama were part cylon it would explain many of the reasons people suspect Lee of being a cylon.) 1% of me thinks maybe it could be the doc, maybe.


The final 1% of me thinks, then again, this show has more than a few times made me loudly exclaim "WTF?!" Things don't always make sense on this show. I'm somewhat expecting another "WTF?!" moment.

I think there's plenty more of those to come, and the identity of the Final Cylon will be amongst the most ho-hum of the WTF! moments. :)

[smelly_feet]

Kidding? No way! I'm 98% sure it's Adama. (And if Adm. Adama were part cylon it would explain many of the reasons people suspect Lee of being a cylon.) 1% of me thinks maybe it could be the doc, maybe.


The final 1% of me thinks, then again, this show has more than a few times made me loudly exclaim "WTF?!" Things don't always make sense on this show. I'm somewhat expecting another "WTF?!" moment.

Maybe Adama's grandfather created the cylons and everyone except for Adama is a cylon. Whatever twist we see in the end, I think it will surround Adama. Why else would his family be in the main plot of Caprica? Although he's the main character in BSG, at the end of the day he's just the Admiral of the fleet. His relationship with the cylon race must be deeper that that if his family history is the basis of the prequel. Something is going to happen which will make us focus exclusively on Adama and his role in the end game.

just my 2cents

[Neakal]

While were talking about Adama, heres an interesting bit suggested by my history professor during break time today (and kinda similar to the kidnapped-during-lone-recon idea): Adama went into that lab in the Ice Planet during the First Cylon War where he found mutilated bodies, the First Hybrid and had a psychic/spiritual experience that resembled projection. Moreover, the place was suspiciously devoid of Cylons.

What if that was not the case. What if when Adama went into the lab, he was captured and it was him that went through some of that cutting, resulting with his mind blocking out the traumatic memory and believing he merely saw it done to other people and that he was a Cylon created in that lab.

Obviously there are gaps with this. There is a really short gap between the crash of the real Adama and the Cylon-Adama contacting the Fleet. Moreoever its been mentioned that there was never an original Sharon. Or Leoben or etc... Hence why would there be an original Adama. Other problems are that Adama's are well documented (though that would also be needed to explain Lee which I still think might be revealed as the Final Cylon). But I did see some people comment that "something really important happened" when the Hybrid grabbed Adama's arm. Just throwing it in for the discussion :)

[smelly_feet]

In the final episode, I would love to see a tardis suddenly appear in the middle of the battle field and lots of Daleks come out of it can blow em all up


heh just kidding.

[smelly_feet]

From season 1, Hera is the only planned cylon. They set up Helo to get Athena pregnant.

[genji2000]

http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/05/betting-site-la.html

[sWozzie]

http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/05/betting-site-la.html
2-7 odds on any other character

/shakes head

personally I would bet a months wages on Head.Six, but its not worth it on those odds, give me 1-1 or more and I am in there

course I wouldn't bet my house on Head.Six regardless of odds

anyway, if anyone knows of a site offering better odds, please let me know :)

[timbo]

2-7 odds on any other character

/shakes head

personally I would bet a months wages on Head.Six, but its not worth it on those odds, give me 1-1 or more and I am in there

course I wouldn't bet my house on Head.Six regardless of odds

anyway, if anyone knows of a site offering better odds, please let me know :)

Holy shamoly, is someone taking bets on BSG? Can I bet on Tigh not being a cylon? What about Billy coming back? I am back in England in two days - are the bookies really offering this stuff. What about Leicester bouncing straight back to the Championship?

[sWozzie]

Holy shamoly, is someone taking bets on BSG? Can I bet on Tigh not being a cylon? What about Billy coming back? I am back in England in two days - are the bookies really offering this stuff. What about Leicester bouncing straight back to the Championship?
Leicester? Championship? lol

who cares about the lower leagues?

oh sorry, course its those that like to sit on a cramped stump of a seat on a freeeezing cold winters saturday afternoon while some hooligan teenager 'fan' next to them insists on punching thin air repeatadly when his team goes two nil down :lol:

trust me ive been there, 5 quid for a crappy burger at half time, oh well, at least you get to see the 'team' 'warm up' :lol:

[herman]

Hi has anyone noticed that the names of atleast three of the final four mean warlike or warrior in example: Tory from Tore , thigh from ty or tye , tyrol from tyr and im betting that T of Samual will fit in nicely too.
That being said Hera also means warrior or warlike as does valari from vali.
Thrace from Trace or tracy also means warlike or warior.
If this means anything she could be the fifth if ron is lying to us about the last supper picture.
But if not i suspect she has a little cylon blood in her making her a hybrid too. That would leave zarek as my choise who in our history was the last king of babylon before it fell It would also fit wel in with what Aaron said in his very spoilery interview.

[The Dirt]

Just gotta point out that Valerii was a popular noble family name in ancient Rome, as well as a popular first name in Eastern Europe (my dad's name, actually). Thrace is old Greek province, directly east of old Macedonia. Tyrol is geographical name as well. Interesting post. Can you post the actual definitions of Tore and Tye?

[herman]

Apparently i made a mistake and only four names have some merrit in the meaning warlike or warrior.

The girl's name Trace \t-ra-ce (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/ending/0/ce)\, also used as boy's name Trace (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Trace), is a variant of Tracy (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Tracy) (Irish (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/0/irish), Gaelic (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/0/gaelic)), and the meaning of Trace is "warlike (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/0/warlike)".

The boy's name Tyrell \t(y)-re-ll (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/ending/1/ll)\ is pronounced tye-REL, TER-el. Possibly (Old (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/old) French (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/french)) "puller (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/puller)", and started (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/started) as a nickname (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/nickname) for a stubborn (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/stubborn) person, implying a comparison with a horse (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/horse) that uncooperatively (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/uncooperatively) pulls (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/pulls) on the reins (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/reins). Also possibly derivative of Tyr (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Tyr), the name of the Scandinavian (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/scandinavian) god (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/god) of battle (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/battle). Tuesday was named for Tyr (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Tyr).

The boy's name Tyr \t-yr (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/ending/1/yr)\ is of Old Norse (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/norse) origin. Name of an Ancient (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/ancient) Norse (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/norse) god (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/god) that was the most brave (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/brave) and bold (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/bold) out of the warlike (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/warlike) ones.

The boy's name Vali \v(a)-li (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/ending/1/li)\ is of Old Norse (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/norse) origin. Mythology (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/mythology): a warlike (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/warlike) son (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/search/1/son) of Odin.

Hera incertain meaning, possibly from either Greek ‘ηρως (http://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe.php?type=GR&target=%27hrws) (heros) "hero, warrior"; ‘ωρα (http://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe.php?type=GR&target=%27wra) (hora) "period of time"; or ‘αιρεω (http://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe.php?type=GR&target=%27airew) (haireo) "to be chosen". In Greek mythology (http://www.behindthename.com/glossary/view/mythology) Hera was the queen of the gods, the sister and wife of Zeus. She presided over marriage and childbirth.


with tore from thor actually meaning thunder or little mountains

tye interesting enough can mean a chain that connects

so sorry my bad.

[The Dirt]

Tracy is an interesting one, since Tracy Ann is supposed to appear in the last 3 episodes.

Tyrell is also interesting because it was the name of the corporation that made cyborgs in Blade Runner (which inspired a lot of nuBSG).

[Hofner1962]

In the final episode, I would love to see a tardis suddenly appear in the middle of the battle field and lots of Daleks come out of it can blow em all up


heh just kidding.

Wouldn't the original genocide be just the thing the Doctor would have been trying to stop - maybe he could appear in "The Plan"

Seriously though, wouldn't James Callis make an awesome 11th Doctor now that David Tennant is retiring?

[thevarrior]

James Callis... the 11th doctor.


... . BRILLIANT!

[genji2000]

Brilliant for Dr. Who, crap for James Callis, unless they made a theatrical release.

[thevarrior]

I was under the impression that Dr. Who was still going strong... even after being a completely worn out franchise.

[Zod]

Dr Who gets good ratings over here but sticking a tv show on the BBC at 6.30pm on a Saturday is always going to get you good ratings.

Noel's House Party?? Remember that crap???? Bruce Forsyth's Generation Game???? Strictly Come Dancing????? I cant believe I have to fork out £12 of my hard earned cash each month for a tv licence for the privelege of living on a planet where these shows are made...using my money.

Personally, I am happy that David Tennant is quiting the show. His gurning every five seconds was really starting to wind me up.

James Callis is far too good an actor to be the Doctor. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see it, he looks perfect for the role, quite dandyish!

Callis and more K9 please!

[genji2000]

It is bizarre that the likes of Dr. Who, Last of the Summer Wine and Keeping Up Appearances go uncensured whilst the excellent caper by Wankathon Woss and Jo Brand over Andrew Sachs' slag granddaughter receive so much whipped-up-by-the-press public vilification.

How about a Beeb - good or gash? thread, pagad (don't say be my guest)? Americans get Beeb output too and I'm sure Scandinavia has a Beeb channel.

[Prolescum]

Wasn't it only 2 people that complained at the time? Then (probably fuelled by a tabloid newspaper) a week later 45,000 people felt the need to tell Aunty that they were appalled at the broadcast of something they wouldn't be interested in and hadn't tuned in to.
F*cking middle England w*nkers. It wasn't even that funny, as Brand actually HAD shagged her.

[genji2000]

Yeah something like that. I think some people took exception to Jay-Woss leaving a message saying "you're gonna hang yourself when you hear this" or something. A. Sachs was apparently fine with it but he asked them to "tone it down", which they did. Once The S*n got hold of it (or The Mirr*r or whatever) the public thought it was the X-Factor and they had to phone in to 'make their opinion known'. The Public is the biggest problem facing the west today; bigger than terrorism, bigger than fundamentalism, bigger than Palinism, etc.

Comedy has to be pushed forward. Without it the west is doomed. I can appreciate that Bill Hicks pushed it (maybe) further than other individual comedians, but it doesn't usually come in some big steps. I'm not a huge fan of his humour (I've watched and heard pretty much everything) but I completely appreciate his contribution, and he is undeniably funny. I'm not such a fan of wankers who hail him as the Messiah because he's so dark and incisive but that's just my taste. I prefer abstract humour like Eddie Izzard. Either way, it's important to keep breaking down the barriers. Woss and Bwand didn't do much new, but they did bring that kind of lol to mainstream radio.

So there are two problems. The public, who are brainwashed by their tabloids to vote for Daniel, and the corporations who are so scared of offending the public. WTF were the BBC thinking of? Why didn't they just say "f*ck off, it's just a joke, you c*nt"?

[Hofner1962]

Brilliant for Dr. Who, crap for James Callis, unless they made a theatrical release.

Quite.

But as with so many things on this forum, I am sticking with what I want to happen until such time as cold hard boring reality backhands me and I sadly reply "really - that's the best you could do - really?"

[The Dirt]

The Public is the biggest problem facing the west today; bigger than terrorism, bigger than fundamentalism, bigger than Palinism, etc.

How do we get rid of the problem? I think the Public just needs a better distraction when they're bored.

[Prolescum]

the public thought it was the X-Factor and they had to phone in
I bet this is exactly right.
And we wonder why aliens don't visit very often.

[Hofner1962]

The Public is the biggest problem facing the west today; bigger than terrorism, bigger than fundamentalism, bigger than Palinism, etc.


Well only because Palin (well really McCain) was defeated. Just wait ...

... In the year 2012 ...
Palin was created by conservatives
She was created to make life easier on the Republicans
And then the time came when Palin decided stop following the bullet points and kill McCain's chances
After a long and bloody campaign, and armistice was declared
Palin left for another world to call her own (one where a Republican Senator indicted on charges which about to bribery can fucking win - my god)
A remote Alaskan station was built ...
... where Palin and human could meet and maintain diplomatic relations.
Every year, the democrats send an officer.
Palin sends no one.
No one has seen or heard from Palin in over four years . . .

If you think I am kidding - check out Palin's famous red suit. Then rewatch the opening few minutes of the mini series.

nuph sed


I wonder if there has ever been a discussion of where the term "Cylon" comes from? And if we haven't too narrowly considered the term "Cylon"...

I was watching Aliens again yesterday and was reminded of the omnipresence of the "Company" (called Wyland or something) and was left wondering if "Cylon" comes from the company or organization that created them...



I didn't see anyone pick this up. It is an interesting question but I don't think there is much there. The short answer is that it came from Glen Larson and RDM really couldn't do BSG without Cylons.

I can't find anything to confirm this, but my feeling is that he basically took cyborg and nylon and put them together. From what I remember, the cylon centurions were originally supposed to have a living being inside of them - sort of like a Dalek. In the European movie of bsg, there was dialog explaining this.

When it came to America, there was a limit on how many people you could kill per hour, so they changed them to robots.

I do find it interesting that cylon is similar to cycle - given the whole all of this has happened before etc stuff.

(Thanks for collapsing them Genji - will keep it in mind in future)

[The Dirt]

Cylon.
Cycle.
Cyclone.

Cybernetic Life-form Node.

[Pnutmaster]

... In the year 2012 ...
Palin was created by conservatives
She was created to make life easier on the Republicans
And then the dame came when Palin decided stop following the bullet points and kill McCain's chances
After a long and bloody campaign, and armistice was declared
Palin left for another world to call her own (one where a Republican Senator indicted on charges which about to bribery can fucking win - my god)
A remote Alaskan station was built ...
... where Palin and human could meet and maintain diplomatic relations.
Every year, the democrats send an officer.
Palin sends no one.
No one has seen or heard from Palin in over four years . . .

lmao.

Best political post yet.

[Hofner1962]

lmao.

Best political post yet.

thanks