Final Five Speculation

[Mingus]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the Final Five are actually from Earth?

Any thoughts on how, when, why, etc.? Or, well, any thoughts at all on this?

[Grace]

Baltar is the Master Cylon and 1 of the Final 5 that ensures the cycle of "this happened before and will happen again". The Final 5 were not recently created but have always existed and undergo a continuous cycle of death and rebirth. They lose the memory of who they are each time and they require special triggers to realise their true identity. Because Baltar knows he will not rememeber what he is after he is reborn, "Original Baltar" programmed the 7 cylon models, including No. 6 to seek "Current Baltar" out and carry out his will - which is to cause the destruction of the 12 colonies and follow/guide Humanity to Earth. No. 6 in Baltar's head is actually a representation/projection of Baltar's own subconsciousness that helps to guide Baltar in his actions. This explains why Baltar is able to seemingly make random but correct guesses of where the cylon weak spot is (Hand of God), who is a cylon (pre-Season 1 movie), what is going to happen next (cylon-hybrid child), what is cylon equipment (cylon transponder), etc the list goes on when you watch it all again.

[ShadowEnigma]

Well how would you explain Tigh and the others then?

[Grace]

Tigh is one of the Final Five that have undergone the cycle of death and rebirth and hence forgotten they were originally Cylons. The trigger for their activation is proximity to Earth. Although unaware of their true nature, all members of the Final Five all work subconsciously to ensure the survival of the human race. This has all happened before and will happen again. The final five must have existed before the current cylon wars for their histories to make sense. This explains the temple, and how Baltar can predict things no one knows.

[The Nubs]

Grace,

That is an interesting theory. But how do they transfer this information from one live to the next?

[Musereader]

The final five must have existed before the current cylon wars for their histories to make sense. This explains the temple, and how Baltar can predict things no one knows.

Failing to see why they need to have existed before, most fictions that have cyclical history paradigms don't require the same individual reborn, they require an individual that is born (or created as the case may be) to fill the roles required but individuals have free will within the role, each cycle is then different but they are broadly the same, because there are hundreds of ways to cause the same or similar outcomes. Also the setting of each cycle could be diffferent, because the journey described in the scriptures we have heard on the show could be a journey that isn't superficially similar at all, it could be through a desert on one planet tens or hundreds of cycles ago but modified as each cycle goes past.

Now I know that the final five must look like the five priests, but they are not the same ones, each cycle must create the five priests anew otherwise when would they be created?

[Grace]

Grace,

That is an interesting theory. But how do they transfer this information from one live to the next?

Hopefully we find out more in season 4

[bazzyb]

Tigh is one of the Final Five that have undergone the cycle of death and rebirth and hence forgotten they were originally Cylons. The trigger for their activation is proximity to Earth. Although unaware of their true nature, all members of the Final Five all work subconsciously to ensure the survival of the human race. This has all happened before and will happen again. The final five must have existed before the current cylon wars for their histories to make sense. This explains the temple, and how Baltar can predict things no one knows.

Grace, I had recently being thinking the same thing but couldn't quite figure out how it would have arisen. You've done a better job in working it out than me. I know the picture of earth at the very end of season 3 has been analysed to death so as to try date it. If we can put that aside, it is possible that BSG earth does not correspond to life here as we know it in the present day. Therefore there may well be and have been cylons affiliated with the 13th tribe rather than with the 12 colonies I think it would be feasible that the final 5 could be part of those cylons. Also if such a scenario is true then it is also possible the the 13th tribe and 'their' cylons are living in peace together.

[Grace]

Well I think the 13th tribe does have something to do with the cylons that existed in the past. Hope what we think might be close to the final story, can't wait. This site also has some interesting ideas that I like http://ideas.4brad.com/baltar-final-cylon#comment-4933

[bazzyb]

Great link, thanks Grace. Likewise, I can't wait to find out. Hopefully production of the 2nd part of S4 can get going ASAP now that the writer's strike is over. Apparently we are only getting approx 10 episodes before the summer

[Mingus]

What if the last Final Five is waiting on Earth for the fleet/Cylons to 'return'? Not one to read spoilers for this season, I'm just guessing (i.e. if you've heard otherwise, please don't correct me), but it seems likely that Earth will be deserted. Except maybe for the one Cylon, sitting on a stump waiting for something to happen. And it's George Bush! Ha!

[Lestat]

I already tried to point to this , but the episodes on Kobol probably are enlighting on that matter.
In there it is said that the war that ended with the first exodus of the 13 colonies was caused by a god who wanted to raise himself above the others . The believers of whom apparently started the war to impose their god . Although not clearly stated it is likely that they were the thirteenth tribe, so they were believers of only one god or at least they believed that only one god must be worshipped because he's the origin of everything existing , just like the cylons do.
I always thought that this was weird who taught the cylons about that? who were the 5 priests? and if they were cylons how could they've already been there thousand of years before the return of the colonies?

There's only one answer to this the human cylons were actually been created by the thirteenth tribe , the cylons wars weren't caused by an actual rebellion but by an external program introduced by the final fives which were in fact already there. Colonel Tigh is proof of that, his presence ,being him in the military, had been recorded since then as a member of some crew and countless duty rosters and witnesses,he was also married for many years , Adama knows him since the beginning of both careers, so his (or its) presence among humans cannot be faked ,he was there.

They started the first cylon war to annihilate the sinners , the infidels , those who were non believers and maybe even used to perform human sacrifices as said by Sharon on Kobol when they found some skulls while looking for the Tomb of Athena. Sharon also said that they , the cylons , know a great deal about what happened on Kobol , more than the humans anyway. How is it possible? Then Again who taught them about it?

As the first attempt failed, maybe because at that time there was no resurrection so they experienced a lack of fighters, so they tried in another way they developed new cylons human models then they infiltrated the colonies to prepare a new successful destruction of them.
They're now guiding the remnants of the colonies back to Earth , pirified from their sins and maybe some of them even converted to their true religion of only one God who matters .
All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again

it could be the war between a tribe against the others with a return of humanity back to Earth and the exodus of the others from Kobol, then again war of the cylons reprogrammed by the thirteenth colony against them, and again an exodus from the colonies and a coming back to Earth . It is even possible that the war between believers and colonial had already happened on Earth before and ended with an exodus which by itself ended when they settled on Kobol.

does all of this make sense?

In addition to that should be considered the time passed between all events , it was because the believers needed to find where the infidels were escaped so they had to find them prior to begin their annihilation

[bazzyb]

Interesting ideas Lestat. Like some others I'm resisting the temptation and I'm keeping away from S4 spoilers (my failure to do so last year definitely reduced my enjoyment of The Sopranos finale). I think you theories would definitely make an excellent S4

[Lestat]

I don't know anything about S4 , I don't want to know anything, not even what is in the teasers , anything I say is speculation.

and unless I'm right very likely nothing of what I said will be correct as usual , this is a show not a crime scene , writers can change what they want in very many ways and usually they do if they notice that the public has anticipated too much, they don't want to be too predictable, want they?

[Orion]

Tigh is one of the Final Five that have undergone the cycle of death and rebirth and hence forgotten they were originally Cylons. The trigger for their activation is proximity to Earth. Although unaware of their true nature, all members of the Final Five all work subconsciously to ensure the survival of the human race. This has all happened before and will happen again. The final five must have existed before the current cylon wars for their histories to make sense. This explains the temple, and how Baltar can predict things no one knows.


If you can show me a script that explains this to a possibly fresh audience without confusing them so much that they switch channels, you are a genius and should be hired by RDM. Otherwise, out of a Viper's tailpipe with lengthy hypothetical theories; sorry, no offense intended. But it's just a fact that fans like theorising a lot. And everything makes perfect sense because you have a fan's time to think it through and through again. But the average audience doesn't know the details you know, and the average producer knows that. they don't want to stretch their audience's patience, that's why such theories will never be applied in the series, even though they may be interesting.


There will be a simple, yet hopefully explanation to the entire Cylon phenomenon. That's my guess, and I refrain from theorising more, even though I did it for myself in the past, but with just one month to go, I have switched to anticipation mode.:D

[bazzyb]

I gotta disagree Orion. There already have been some complex plotlines in BSG to date (e.g. think of the origin of 1st hyrid in 'Razor') The gift of the superb writing of RDM is that he can appeal to the more casual viewer while keeping a deeper complexity that will appeal to the fans. If I might use the anlogy of another TV show, 'The Simpons'. When that show was at it's best, it appealed to kids and adults for very different reasons. I think RDM's writing in BSG has and can create similar appeal for both the casual viewer and dedicated fan. Do you remember 'Schindler's List' and the little girl in red. Film critics debated the departure from b/w to the red for that scene. The arguments, debates, discussions etc. had their merits but most viewers probably couldn't care less yet that does not take away from the validity of those debates. If BSG reaches the standards that we expect for S4 then there should be something there for everyone, from casual viewer to fan to dedicated fan.

[Lestat]

But the cycle as proposed has no support but a single verse from the scrolls of Pythia , also to be trigerred in proximity of Earth needs at least some complex sensors able to find out the exact position of the five cylons in the Galaxy , and they've done this INSIDE a vessel that is almost miraculous especially because in 2 or even 3 thousands years the stars have changed their relative positions.

It is more likely that a specific event triggered a hidden program

[LSOP]

Hey Lestat, don't knock the Scrolls of Pythia. It may be only one verse, but it is one of the most important and memorable ones in there. It has to mean something significant to the BSG universe.

Orion, I would also agree with bazzyb that S4 needs to have stuff for the fans who have been following all along, as well as the newbies. I think RDM can pull it off. Plus they can just run one of those "the story so far" pieces, or an extra long "previously on Battlestar Galactica..." segment, to bring everyone up to date. There have been some very complicated plot lines running through this show, both within seasons and across seasons. I feel there is no reason to dumb it down now, and I don't think they will.

Btw, do you think the writers troll the forums, looking for fans' ideas, so they can make sure that they don't include in them in the story?

[Lestat]

I'm not knocking off the Scrolls in fact my theories at page 1 are based on it , I was merely pointing out that a too complex way to fit a theory with it is not likely to be showed, as Orion pointed out.
I limited my theory on an endless war of persecution between " true believers" and infidels, which actually happened countless times on Earth , believers on masculine gods vs believers on Mother Goddess , Believers on Ra against believers on Aton , the Romans against the druids , the Romans against the Christians , The Romans forcing the Exodus from Provincia Judaica (Israel) , Christians against pagans , Christians against Jews , Islamic raise and expansion against Christians , the Crusades , the Reconquista in Spain , the witch hunt , Turkeys against the Christians , Islamists against Induists , Induists against Islamists .plus persecutions and countless minor escape of the Jews in medioeval history, plus Christians against Christians , plus persecutions aganst Quakers , Mormons , it's really endless


About the authors I believe they do actually take a look to fansites and forums for both new ideas and to avoid too predictable plots . There's a rumor about Veronica Mars third season apparently the fans had anticipated the her death would be a possible ending of her last season , it was actually so and the writers were forced to change their season and series finale.
It is uncertain though whether some deep troath revealed the end to some fan or they actually theorized too good

[ThPrime]

...also to be trigerred in proximity of Earth needs at least some complex sensors able to find out the exact position of the five cylons in the Galaxy , and they've done this INSIDE a vessel that is almost miraculous especially because in 2 or even 3 thousands years the stars have changed their relative positions.

It is more likely that a specific event triggered a hidden program

I'm good with the proximity thing. If not closeness to Earth then the arrival at the Ionian nebula. Or. Perhaps from now on, due to nearing Earth, the act of the jumping itself which is fundamentally an instantaneous displacement from one location in the galaxy to another. If one were continuously oriented subconsciously to a location, a FTL jump would momentarily disorient. I'm reminded of homing pigeons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homing_pigeons) By whatever mechanism(s) the birds do actually use, they simply know where they are but can become temporarily disoriented.

What is this nonsense? How is this to be depicted in a non-technobabble naturalistic way? Hey don't ask me.

I am attempting to make sense that Roslin's fainting spell in the CIC, four people hearing music and thereby realize they're cylons and "We're going the wrong waaaay!" are all evidently intimately connected by mechanism(s) currently unknown. An occurrence of an unexplainable event does not necessarily mean someone is or isn't the final cylon. :)

At least one lesson is to be found here. Continuity is defined by what is broadcast, not what is said in a podcast (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Crossroads%2C_Part_II)

[Orion]

There already have been some complex plotlines in BSG to date (e.g. think of the origin of 1st hyrid in 'Razor') The gift of the superb writing of RDM is that he can appeal to the more casual viewer while keeping a deeper complexity that will appeal to the fans.

Well, I do not think the origin of the First Hybrid is that complex. It's rather simple. A bunch of androids create abhorrent experiments on humans and have some Frankenstein's party, and bang you have the First Hybrid. I can tell that story in one sentence. :)

Also, Razor is essentially a two parter where you have more time to go into detail, e.g., Kendra's character development.
However, we already know that SciFi wants season four to consist of more independent episodes, so the timeframe for explaining theories becomes tighter. The musing and theorising on the fans' part should heed this. Fan "insider's" information also is not available to the general public, or, the casual viewer could not care less and visit, e.g., battlestar wiki to have some deeper insights.
Most theories that I have read here depend on lots of background knowledge and require extensive time for explanation, my own casual musing is sometimes suffering from the same. Therefore I have seized theorising, I'm waiting for RDM to tell me his small secrets on screen, and you know what? If they don't make sense, frak the series.:D

[Lestat]

My theory is not that complex the thirteen tribe created the human cylons and reprogrammed the centurions to destroy the infidels so it's actually a crusade or so , as it happended already countless times , not too difficult to explain and not too strange for people with a basic knowledge of history

but I for first would like to be surprised or even shocked by RDM even if we'll see an Earth assimilated by the Cylons

[ShadowEnigma]

I think it would be awesome if they all got to Earth, and Earth wasn't Earth anymore. It was Disco Heaven, and all of the Discoites flew up in their disco ships and discoed the Cylons to death.

..Oh wait, wrong Galactica, sorry! =P

[bazzyb]

Well, I do not think the origin of the First Hybrid is that complex. It's rather simple. A bunch of androids create abhorrent experiments on humans and have some Frankenstein's party, and bang you have the First Hybrid. I can tell that story in one sentence

Orion, I appreciate your thoughts on this but I think that us fans sometimes foget that the whole premise of BSG is quite complex. A lot of casual viewers tune it thinking something like "Okay, so the humans are the good guys and the cylons are the bad guys. Right?" The reality is somewhat different. Boundaries between good and evil are frequently blurred and what is right often simply depends on whose side you are on. The casual viewer may just be tuning in to see the 'bad guys' getting beaten in an entertaining way

[Grace]

I think BSG is a good drama because it challenges the viewers to find the distinction between humans and cylons, and in so doing the viewers realise the line is not distinct at all. Both have their very "human" strengths and weaknesses, triumphs and sins. The show does this by revealing that the final 4 (5) cylons are all very "human", just because they are cylon does not make their beliefs and actions "inhuman". These are complex issues and parallels what people face in real life.

Anyway, back to the story. I still believe the final cylon is Baltar as he is the embodiment of "human" weakness, yet he seeks redemption through his actions. By finally revealing hiim as the final cylon, the show is telling us cylon and humans are actually very similar, and ......we may have descended from cylons from a long forgotten generation.

[caprica_six]

Tigh is one of the Final Five that have undergone the cycle of death and rebirth and hence forgotten they were originally Cylons. The trigger for their activation is proximity to Earth. Although unaware of their true nature, all members of the Final Five all work subconsciously to ensure the survival of the human race. This has all happened before and will happen again. The final five must have existed before the current cylon wars for their histories to make sense. This explains the temple, and how Baltar can predict things no one knows.

Nice I LOVE this theory!
Finally I'm on a forum with people who have very intellectual thoughts on BSG! Nice job guys!

[Grace]

Glad there are people of similar frequency. BSG is such a good drama becuase of it's intellectual and human aspects. Of course at the end of the day, we want to see how all the puzzles fall into place and all make sense for as many fans as possible.

[The Nubs]

I do have to say that I would prefer Baltar over Ellen Tigh. But I think it would ruin Baltar as a character to make him a cylon and that be a reason why is "sins" are explainable. I think it makes more sense for him to be human and be the human embodiment of human weakness then to have this come from a cylon. I do however agree that if they do make it him it does make sense on so many levels so I'm not ruling it out. I just think it's to easy to make it him.