Final Five - theory 2!

[sWozzie]

The Final Five are "head" characters.

This makes alot of sense, the Significant7 are scared of them and dont know their identities. In Downloaded, "head Baltar" tell Caprica Six that they must not know he exists.

There are 5 head characters - six and Baltar plus the head Roslin, Tigh and Adama shown at the start of "Collaborators". (This could explain why Leoben tells Roslin "Adama is a cylon", Leoben sees things and may have seen this head character as Adama, it can also explain how D'Anna in the Temple of Five says she is sorry to the figure she recognizes, she has reason to be sorry to Adama, Tigh and Roslin)

These 5 head characters all share the same goal - survival of Hera. Head six is assigned to Baltar as guardian/protector of Hera, head Baltar was assigned to Caprica Six after she downloaded and she now feels she must protect Hera - with her life. The other 3, who interacted with head six in the "Collaborators" scene were forgiving Baltar for buggering up his assigned role as protector of Hera since she was now in the hands of the cylons and they all thought she was dead (remember head six thinks Hera is dead after the switch, she cries and blames Baltar getting quite evil with him, so the head characters aren't godly in the sense that they see all). The head characters constantly give the impression that they aren't on the side of the cylons - head six helps Baltar numerous times (finding the cylon device in the control room, helping him resist the pain of the cylon interrorgation). head baltar helps caprica six to the detrement of the other cylons, making her realise things about herself that go against the cylon beliefs, pushing her in the direction of leading the cylons (she is a war hero) into making some sort of peace with them (New Caprica).

The 4 revealed at the end of season 3 are 4 of the remaining cylons in the fleet - remember Boomer told Baltar there was 8 left in the fleet and we have seen at least 3 of these (reporter D'Anna, suicide bomber than nearly kills Adama and Leoben).

This is an extension of my other Final Five theory http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=387

All sounds good to me

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

The issue with your theory is that they're only 12 humanoid Cylon models. Period. Your theory adds more than that number. When you add Adama, Roslin, and Baltar, you get at least 14 different models!

Plus the number that Boomer threw out there isn't exactly concrete information. After all, information given under duress is questionable at best.

[sWozzie]

NO you misunderstand, the head characters arent the real characters, they just appear as the real characters to the living - human or cylon its all the same to them

common sense tells you that there are 7 skinjobs and 4 humans + 1 missing cylon - that makes 12 humanoid cylons - problem solved

far from it I am afraid

people ASSUME the Final Five refers to the cylons revealed at the end of season 3 but this doesnt have to be the case

Consider this as a variation of the theory above...

12 Lords of Kobol, 1 of them Athena kills herself, leaving 11

5 known head characters + 1 candidate head character (Leoben) = 6

So there are 6 known head characters (six, baltar, tigh, roslin, adama and leoben) - these together with the Final Five makes 11 which is the number of Lords of Kobol left after Athena kills herself

the head characters are the Lords of Kobol - all accounted for - the Final Five are the same type of being that the head characters are

the 13th tribe built a temple for them, the five devoted to one whose name cannot be spoken, the ghostly figures you see with hoods are the Final Five, the 5 priests (according the 13th tribe)

somewhere along the line, the 5 separated from the 6 with the 6 looking after the remaining humans/cylons and striving to create yet another race involving Hera

the other 5 are "out there somewhere", maybe they went to Earth, were exiled to Earth or whatever but they are coming back into the storyline the closer we get to Earth

so you end up with two groups of "gods" separated at some point and then coming together in the final series

there are still 12 humanoid cylons - all I am giving you is the answer to the mystery of the Lords of Kobol - they have been central characters throughout the entire series and yet have remained hidden behind the mask of confusion that leads you think they are cylons

[Seanathin]

That just seems to mythical to complex, and almost not quite what the show is going for.

I don't think there was anything really godly about the Lords of Kobal they were just beings greater then the humans, probably in the same way that the humans were greater then the cylons.

As for head Adama, Roslon, and Tigh I think that was just one device, just another short manifestation of Baltars Fraked up brain. Because I mean we don't ever see them again.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

people ASSUME the Final Five refers to the cylons revealed at the end of season 3 but this doesnt have to be the case

Umm... RDM and company already confirmed the fact that Tory, Tigh, Anders and Tryol are Cylons. So... there's one left.

[sWozzie]

Umm... RDM and company already confirmed the fact that Tory, Tigh, Anders and Tryol are Cylons. So... there's one left.

I am not denying that, in fact I am confirming it. The 4 revealed are cylons but they aren't the Final Five - the Final Five are the last Lords of Kobol, we have already seen the other 6 and there are only 11 of them left (Athena killed herself).

The 4 revealed *are* 4 of the last 5 cylons but the cylons aren't all they seem to be. The episode in which they find the beacon is the clue. The beacon is 3000 years old, the cylons were killed by a virus on that beacon, a virus which humans developed an immunity to a couple hundred years ago (according to the doctor). So the cylons must be based on material that is at least a couple hundred years old because they don't have the immunity. This is how Tigh can be a cylon.

[Seanathin]

I think your creating two groups of "final five" and thats whats making this confusing, the final five cylons and "THE FINAL FIVE" when I think the only one that really exists is the former. There is something very very very diffrent about the final five cylons, to the point that they are probably cylons from a diffrent cycle who whos, but I don't really think they are the lords of Kobal, any of the cylons really.

[sWozzie]

yes thats right but I am not creating them, the producers/writers are doing that, I am just looking through the confusion that they are creating thats designed to throw you off the scent and also not ignoring any of the clues that they leave behind.

Its just a theory, put here for others to add too or shoot down but it's consistent with the story so far - there is nothing that has happened that would indicate this theory is wrong. In fact it provides a basis for explaining all the other mysteries in the series which no other theory ive seen manages to do.

You even say yourself that the 5 remaining cylons are from a different cycle, well thats what this theory is pointing too (cylons created at least a couple hundred years ago - the beacon clue). There is no reason at all to think that the 5 ghostly figures and the last 5 cylons are the same thing - yeah they share the number 5 which is the same kind of deception the writers have sown by making head six look like Caprica Six - it makes you assume something without question and leads you down a path that makes no sense.

As far as I can recall the only clue that the Final Five could be the last 5 cylons is when D'Anna says something about the Final Five being the last 5 cylons when she was on the baseship. Thats the only link between the Final Five and the last 5 cylons. But when she stands in the Temple and sees the face of one of them she says "You... Forgive me I...I had no idea" demonstrating that she really didn't know what she was talking about when she implied the Final Five were the last 5 cylons.

[Aset]

You are creating a second Final Five...in the first place that name was something the fans gave it not the writers. There are in fact 12 models of cylon, period. 7 are known, we have had 4 more revealed to the viewer, there is one model remaining. Your theory is combining the series facts with fan nicknames & going way out in left field.

[Jennings7]

swozzle, Why do you keep saying Athena killed herself? Sharon "Athena" Agathon has not committed suicide as far as I remember? Did I miss something here?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Well... He's referring to the Lord of Kobol named Athena who, according to the Sacred Scrolls, killed herself in despair. Not Sharon Agathon. :D

[Jennings7]

Gotcha, thanks for filling me in. I just watched Razor and haven't watched seasons 1-3 in about 6 months so my history is a little hazy right now.

[sWozzie]

You are creating a second Final Five...in the first place that name was something the fans gave it not the writers. There are in fact 12 models of cylon, period. 7 are known, we have had 4 more revealed to the viewer, there is one model remaining. Your theory is combining the series facts with fan nicknames & going way out in left field.

No the phrase "Final Five" is mentioned in the series numerous times.

[Aset]

Having just rewatched it, I don't recall that. I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. It still remains the theory put forth is not plausible within the parameters set forth in the show.

[Rukia]

Unless you count Helo killing her as assisted suicide - in order to get Hera back. (Although that probably doesn't count)

I finished watching Razor this evening and from what I can gather there is only one Cylon left to be revealed and that's the final cylon out of the 'Final Five'.

Besides I thought it was the 13th Tribe that left behind the beacon, that the Cylons encountered with the virus. To my knowledge Tigh didn't go anywhere near the Cylons that had become infected, unless I missed something so that would explain why he didn't feel the effects of the virus.

Wah! I fear I'm confusing myself.

[sWozzie]

We're talking about Athena, the Lord of Kobol, not Athena the cylon. Besides I think this theory is probably a load of rubbish but the thing is, the writers don't actually have a set plan for how its all going to pan out until they sit down to write it - so if you got a theory that works then its quite possible the writers will come up with the same theory at some time and if it's good enough they might well go with it!

[Orion]

Well.
Any theory about the final five
needing more than final five lines to be explained
is probably too complex to be told on screen.
It's as easy as that,
test your theories on that

Frak, I used more lines meself :-)

[The Nubs]

Is there any common factor that the four of the final five share? The only thing that I can think of so far is that they all play second fiddle to someone in some way.

Tory Foster is the aid to the president.
Anders is Starbucks ex/husband.
Saul Tigh is behind Adama.
I haven't figured out one for Tyrol yet. The best I can come up with is that he being the chief is sort of second to the pilots and and after thought to those who get all the glory.

So now, does that mean the the final cylon is going to be in the same sort of role or are they going to be a "major player."

I am also in the process of watching the episodes online while at work in preperation for season 4 and just watched an episode from season one where it looks like the actress that plays Tory had the role as the head of the inquiry board into the sabotage/terrorist attacks on galactica. Is this the same actress/character or just a similar looking person?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

http://battlestarforum.com/images/misc/progress.gif I am also in the process of watching the episodes online while at work in preperation for season 4 and just watched an episode from season one where it looks like the actress that plays Tory had the role as the head of the inquiry board into the sabotage/terrorist attacks on galactica. Is this the same actress/character or just a similar looking person?

You're referring to "Litmus". This is a different actress and her character is named Candace Myson (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Candace_Myson).

As for Tory, she didn't appear until after "Sacrifice", in the second season.

[Lestat]

Hi new here
I think that in order to identify the fifth hidden cylon some points must be considered :
Why the fifth didn't answered to the song?
It (assuming it's a machine) could either have triggered the dormant program of the others or it was unable to respond to it.
The first possibility puts a question , All Along the Watchtower is a definitely Terran song so how's possible that someone has programmed a light years far cylon with it , also Tigh is
active for many years so in what of our years the story take place?
In 1980 series they were contemporary to us.

second question Starbuck was examinated with reproduction purposes and even received surgery in "the Farm" so if she's a cylon how's possible that the cylon physician didn't recognize her as such? Given the purpose she should've been examinated down to the DNA. I don't think the cylons build all the single pair bases of the DNA of each of them even humans aren't that different, after thousand years of mixing it's still possible to identify the origin of each of us by examining our DNA. So if Kara is a cylon she's a completely different one , also where was the resurrection ship? The hidden five aren't of course resurrected in the same ships as the significant seven are or they would have recognized their models so were is the other one? and how far is Earth from there?
During the gathering Kara was dead

Again about Roslin it is true that she received Hera's blood so it might be the reason why she is in contact with Caprica Six and Boomer but since her cancer is spreading again I would assume that Hera's blood has no longer effect also she was in contact with Leoben , she saw him in her dreams before actually seeing him and it was way before Athena came on board. Actually her visions stopped after receiving Hera's blood until the gathering
When the gathering program was triggered she was on Galactica with Tory being the Colonial One docked into the Battlestar.

About Baltar and his vision they're strange in fact Caprica Six has the same kind of visions and with the same supporting functions , also on Kobol he has seen Hera before knowing of her and even thought she was his , so they're not simple delusions , he's not hallucinating he saw actual things and he's not a prophet nor particularly religious so that is strange at least.It seems some kind of helping program a guide on line,apparently they're not linked together the Baltar seen by Caprica is different from the usual Baltar
Also I noticed that the Cylons can resist any torture as we saw with Leoben , Gina and Athena none of them answered when forced , they only answer by their own will , they could have some kind of security program which prevent them from revealing things but is uneffective in a regular chat or in case of love in fact Leoben didn't say anything when tortured but revealed how many cylons were in the fleet when chatting or being asked with no threat , Gina resisted any torture , any humiliation but reavealed the vital function of the resurrection ship to Baltar which didn't threat her , Athena didn't say anything about the Resurrection Ship to Thorne when he asked violently not even when it was clear he was going to rape her , but she was more than willing to help the fleet many times actually she saved all of them when the fleet was attacked With the virus.
The same ability we saw performed by Baltar he has been tortured by both the cylons and the humans but he had never revealed anything, being the coward he is this is unfitting with his carachter , also he's more than cooperating by himself if properly solicitated.
During the gathering he was in the brig and cannot respond

[Nab Greven]

Baltars release was prior to the gathering. I found it interesting when Baltar appears in the corridor after the trial that he is looking up. His head is cocked as if he is listening to an unidentifiable source. He breaks this and continues to walk in a dazed manner. There are many possible reasons for these actions. Reasons too numerous for me to want to write. Your saying of him being in the brig at the gathering's time does help us ask the question why there were only four at the epiphanous meeting. Why is the unkown Cylon not in the bunker?

The character may not be aboard the Galactica or even in the fleet.

Now for my own speculation. There is a greater emphasis on the family Adama. Building a deeper story for an even deeper secret. Is it Lee's mother? A possible if however implausable candidate. The story arc may partially mirror Sauls plight with Ellen. Mirroring is prominent within BSG.

[Grace]

Baltar is the Master Cylon and 1 of the Final 5 that ensures the cycle of "this happened before and will happen again". The Final 5 were not recently created but have always existed and undergo a continuous cycle of death and rebirth. They lose the memory of who they are each time and they require special triggers to realise their true identity. Because Baltar knows he will not rememeber what he is after he is reborn, "Original Baltar" programmed the 7 cylon models, including No. 6 to seek "Current Baltar" out and carry out his will - which is to cause the destruction of the 12 colonies and follow/guide Humanity to Earth. No. 6 in Baltar's head is actually a representation/projection of Baltar's own subconsciousness that helps to guide Baltar in his actions. This explains why Baltar is able to seemingly make random but correct guesses of where the cylon weak spot is (Hand of God), who is a cylon (pre-Season 1 movie), what is going to happen next (cylon-hybrid child), what is cylon equipment (cylon transponder), etc the list goes on when you watch it all again.

[Lestat]

There is a flaw in this logic , if Baltar was granted access to the mainframe why should he programmed #6 to seduce him and to access that mainframe instead of him?
Also without #6 no one would have known that the mainframe was disabled , it has been correctly guessed when Shelley Godfrey pointed human attention to this , again why Baltar should've programmed Shelley to put him at risk?
Again the tribunal could have him executed , he had been saved by Apollo's speech , this was fairly unpredictable.
Again why he had programmed the 7 to torture him and even a Doral to threaten him with a gun? Very risky.

He could actually be the final but he's not aware of that nor could have programmed such a risky way in his path

Last thought , machines have no unconscious their dreams are actually programs running in background

[timbo]

Swozzie,I bow to you, at last a kindred spirit.
I have just read through this thread. At last I have an ally. I thought I was the only one. I am with Swozzie - I think though Tigh and co maybe cylons, they are not the final five. I agree that the writers have allowed confusion to reign, not to boost ratings, but because they dont want to spoil it. The sheer volume of speculation left them with nowhere to go without giving stuff away, so they have been ambiguous,not dishonest. The biggest reason that I am with you however, is that you seem to be saying that this final four/ five stuff is about God / Gods / lords of Cobol, huge devine issues not "and will the secret cylon now please take off his mask" gameshow stuff. When people say that the show is not about these big questions, I cant believe it. The show started with a woman snapping a baby´s neck and just got deeper and darker as it went. I thought I was being pretty original (check out the "Brave enough" thread)) until I read this one. And I had to laugh at how everyone has derided your efforts. But sometimes the small solitary voice amid the chaos is the right one. I dont know if you are still in the forum or not, I am imagine when the powers that be recognised your intuitive understanding and powers of deduction, you were whisked away to some high office better suited to your ability. O r maybe they have killed you to stop the truth from getting out. If you are still around, Know this: I bow to you.