Uniforms conflict?

[Palpat]

It might be early to post such a thing, but I was quite bothered by the little glimpse we got on Caprican uniforms in Caprica.
When the Cylon is put on trial before the new defense minister, there are some high ranking military officers behind her, and they are wearing uniforms that totally look like the colonial fleet ones.

But what bothers me is that in razor, we saw the First War uniforms and their TOS look.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_War-era_Uniforms

So, prop error? Continuity error? RDM don't care about such details (possible, it's quite geeky)? Or will the Colonies choose new neutral uniforms for their common forces and later revert to "old style à la Caprican"?

[thevarrior]

RDM didn't care about such details

Yep.

[Palpat]

Hope I'm just paranoid and over geeky and that if First War is to be a part of Caprica, they'll have the idea to watch razor... :(

[Scoody]

Could have been that those uniforms were what was worn by a different Branch. The only uniforms we really got to see in BSG or Razor were Fleet and Marine uniforms. Who knows what the Colonial Army or Colonial Air Force wore.

[itzhakts]

Who knows what the Colonial Army or Colonial Air Force wore.

I think it was the coast guard.

[eps200]

or perhaps the formal uniform never changed only the stuff used in action

[Cacaoatl]

Caprica takes place before the Twelve Colonies became a unified state. Each Colony had its own sovereign government and military. The uniformed soldiers we saw were from Caprica's military. BSG and Razor take place after the Twelve Colonies unified and consolidated their military forces.

[BruceAdama]

It is logical to assume that the Colonial military will be wearing the "RAZOR"/TOS uniforms, not only because of chronology, but because of the fact that it has already been established in "RAZOR". What remains to be seen, however, is if the Commanding Officers of Battlestars of the time will be wearing medallions like Lorne Greene's Adama did, in the nuBSG 'verse.

[Palpat]

What bothers me actually is: "will RDM use what he established before, i.e. in Razor, or will he make some bullshit again?"

[Hofner1962]

I think you can rest assured that continuity is not important to RDM.

[BruceAdama]

I think you can rest assured that continuity is not important to RDM.

Considering the nuBSG setting, that is an absolutely absurd and utterly baseless statement. Of course RDM will use what we saw in "RAZOR"... there's no reason for him to use anything different.

The only reason anything would be different, is if there were someone else in charge, or if a new art team were brought in. But we have nothing to say that such will be the case. nuBSG has proven time and again, that it respects its own canon, and remains consistent to a chosen period look.

[Prolescum]

I think you can rest assured that continuity is not important to RDM.
Considering the nuBSG setting, that is an absolutely absurd and utterly baseless statement. Of course RDM will use what we saw in "RAZOR"... there's no reason for him to use anything different.

The only reason anything would be different, is if there were someone else in charge, or if a new art team were brought in. But we have nothing to say that such will be the case. nuBSG has proven time and again, that it respects its own canon, and remains consistent to a chosen period look.

You're taking the piss, right? There are literally barrels full of inconsistencies. If you'd like an example, look no further than the tomb of Athena.

Edit:

Oh, didn't you say you hadn't watched the whole run?

Edit II:

Er, that might've been someone else.

[BruceAdama]

^

Umm... I'm not really sure what you mean, but let me clarify my post...

The nuBSG series established a look, and stayed with that look. The TOS-era Cylons we saw in "RAZOR" looked the very same in "Daybreak". The OP was asking/wondering if we would see the "RAZOR"/TOS uniforms again on "Caprica", to which I replied yes, it would make sense to assume as much, because since it was already the established look, there is no reason to alter it. nuBSG is not VOY or ENT... it respects its own canon. That was the point I was trying to make. You may disagree with me, and that's totally fine... but as far as I can tell, nuBSG has always kept its look consistent.

[Palpat]

Well, the fact is that in Caprica pilot, we had glimpse of Caprican officers, wearing a very colonial-styled uniform, not a razor like one.
Hence my doubts.
One can always assume that upon the unification they designed a new uniform and then reverted to something else... But I'm sure I can assume that RDM does not give a frak about canon indeed.

And after all, the series will probably not cover the Cylon War, so this question is probably useless.

[BruceAdama]

^

The series WILL cover the Cylon War... RDM has stated such. He has said that the series will conclude with the First Cylon War.

Can you direct me to the specific scene in the "Caprica" pilot, where we see a Colonial officer?

Also, the Twelve Colonies of Kobol were unified well before the First Cylon War, not during or after. But in any event, you obviously don't place much faith in RDM as I do, so we just have to agree to disagree.

[Batman316]

Todays Class:
How to remove foot from mouth 101 with your instructor Prolescum
You're taking the piss, right? There are literally barrels full of inconsistencies. If you'd like an example, look no further than the tomb of Athena.

Edit:

Oh, didn't you say you hadn't watched the whole run?

Edit II:

Er, that might've been someone else. hehehehe

Commanding Officers of Battlestars of the time will be wearing medallions like Lorne Greene's Adama did, in the nuBSG 'verse. Wasn't that medallion something to do with the quarum(sp) of the 12? Don't think it was actually a military rank cause I'm pretty sure Baltar and Count Ibis had them.

[BruceAdama]

Todays Class:
How to remove foot from mouth 101 with your instructor Prolescum
hehehehe

Wasn't that medallion something to do with the quarum(sp) of the 12? Don't think it was actually a military rank cause I'm pretty sure Baltar and Count Ibis had them.

I honestly have no idea... my canonical expertise is with nuBSG, not TOS. I assumed it was a medallion denoting his rank, but I could be mistaken. I don't see how a (active) military officer could be a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, but maybe the rules in TOS BSG were different.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

In all honesty, my faith in RDM has significantly wavered since installing Jane Espenson in "Caprica" and the mess that was Season 4. This is what you get for going "on the fly" and dropping in things just to shock people—Starbuck's death and resurrection being the main sticking point, regardless of the Earth/Hear-as-Eve stuff.

Anyway, the officers you saw in Caprica were from Caprica's military. It wasn't until the Cylon War that the Colonies created their own united military force, hence the "Colonial Fleet."

Secondly, the same costuming, art, and prop team is in place for "Caprica" that did BSG itself, so I don't see there being much of an issue with inconsistencies in terms of "look." Even with some of the retcon designs and subtle changes (with the guns and helmets) within BSG, the look has been really consistent throughout that series, regardless of the inconsistencies from the writers' room.

I honestly have no idea... my canonical expertise is with nuBSG, not TOS. I assumed it was a medallion denoting his rank, but I could be mistaken. I don't see how a (active) military officer could be a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, but maybe the rules in TOS BSG were different.

In TOS, members of the Quorum of Twelve commanded their own battlestars (at least, this seems to be implied). President Adar commanded Atlantia, while Adama commanded Galactica. Baltar claimed to be headed to his own ship during the attack and was caught in between during the fighting.

[BruceAdama]

^

Okay, but can you give me the specific scene in the pilot movie where you saw the uniforms?

I admit, you are correct regarding the date of unification... I was wrong. The wiki entry is cited blow:

When these early models (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_Centurion_Model_0005) rebelled, the Colonies unified their governments under the Articles of Colonization (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Articles_of_Colonization) sometime before or during the Cylon War (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_War) as a federal republic known as the Twelve Colonies of KobolHowever, the wiki entry DOES leave room to say that the unification happened prior to the actual war. In fact, the dialogue in the miniseries would tend to support this...

Doral states that originally, there were only 12 Battlestars... one to represent each Colony. That could mean that the Colonies were already unified, and the Battlestar representations were to unity under a single force.

Regarding the TOS Quorum of the Twelve... I had no idea it worked that way... I always thought Battlestar Atlantia was simply President Adar's "flagship"... the "Colonial One" of TOS, if you will. That is interesting to know... thanks for telling me.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Okay, but can you give me the specific scene in the pilot movie where you saw the uniforms?

Near the end of the "Caprica" pilot, when the U-87 / Cylon is being demonstrated to people from the Department of Defense. You see military types in the background wearing more "common" military uniforms. (If you look closely, they also have the rank pins used in the Colonial Fleet from around the Fall.)

Actually, just a bit of trivia here, but there was scene cut from "Razor" where the comm officer (the one who tells Adama that the war's over) is wearing the collar rank pins. You read it here first. :thumbsup:

I admit, you are correct regarding the date of unification... I was wrong. The wiki entry is cited blow:

However, the wiki entry DOES leave room to say that the unification happened prior to the actual war. In fact, the dialogue in the miniseries would tend to support this...

Doral states that originally, there were only 12 Battlestars... one to represent each Colony. That could mean that the Colonies were already unified, and the Battlestar representations were to unity under a single force.

There is some wiggle room here, yes, and certainly the "Caprica" series should shed some more light on this.

[Palpat]

Don't forget the war lasted for twelve years.
That's enough to take a pounding , seek unity between colonies as Cylons are not only a Caprican problem, have the technological downgrade because of said defeats and then designing and building the Battlestars that helped them win the war.
Things have been clear enough: Colonies acted like independent states, waging war between them and such. They united when faced to annihilation. Having one of the new war weapon, the battlestar, for each colony is a political gesture.

[BruceAdama]

Don't forget the war lasted for twelve years.
That's enough to take a pounding , seek unity between colonies as Cylons are not only a Caprican problem, have the technological downgrade because of said defeats and then designing and building the Battlestars that helped them win the war.

There's really only one major problem with this scenario...

There's no realistic way that a unification of that scale would take place during a time of such war... you are talking about not ONLY unifying 12 worlds into one governmental body, but also all the political and economic restructuring that would go along with it... in addition to reorganizing the structure of the governing bodies, the existing forms of Colonial currencies would be phased out, and the new form of cubits introduced, and so on...

All that would take not only time, but a lot of money... money that would not be free for such things, in a wartime economy. I really think the Colonies would have been unified before the outbreak of the war... it makes the most sense.

[Prolescum]

It's not that hard to change things when you're losing and need to consolidate, I can well imagine it being swift and repercussions ignored for more pressing needs. Society is only a collection of individuals until it's backed into a corner, then it's one big fuck-off bastard. Anyway, they obviously had some kind of integration, akin to the EU (before its recent tightening up) I suspect. The Quorum has its origins on Kobol, so...

[BruceAdama]

It's not that hard to change things when you're losing and need to consolidate, I can well imagine it being swift and repercussions ignored for more pressing needs. Society is only a collection of individuals until it's backed into a corner, then it's one big fuck-off bastard. Anyway, they obviously had some kind of integration, akin to the EU (before its recent tightening up) I suspect. The Quorum has its origins on Kobol, so...

Well, it is, and the wording of your reply actually proves my point...

You said when you're "losing".

If a war were really going THAT badly, there's no way that economic resources that vast would be taken away from the immediate war effort. Absolutely everything we have, would be dedicated to the construction of new Battlestars, Vipers, Raptors, whatever, and the war machine... unifying 12 planets and embarking on a major economic and political restructuring simply would not be a priority.

But, that's just my take. :)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

If a war were really going THAT badly, there's no way that economic resources that vast would be taken away from the immediate war effort. Absolutely everything we have, would be dedicated to the construction of new Battlestars, Vipers, Raptors, whatever, and the war machine... unifying 12 planets and embarking on a major economic and political restructuring simply would not be a priority.

Where do you think all this money and power would come from anyway? How would the military raise the necessary funds and material to create the "war machine?" Governments and their economies would have to be unified into a cohesive whole in order for this to happen...

[BruceAdama]

^

Which is exactly why it makes more sense that the unification would have already taken place, prior to a war. In any case, we can agree to disagree. :)

[Commander Scott]

Hi there everyone,

I have to say that I’m intrigued by the different viewpoints that have been expressed in this thread.

From a personal perspective, I feel the need to note that I never saw any wiggle room as to when the Articles of Colonization were signed, but given the ambiguity present in so much of the timeline, I decided to look at the dates that were presented to us during the course of the show, and attempt to find a definitive answer.

To begin with, I went back to the Mini Series to ensure that it had indeed been forty years since the end of the Cylon War. I then factored in the Colonial Day anniversary that was being celebrated aboard Cloud 9, the fifty second of which was established by James McManus on the talk wireless show, The Colonial Gang.

In addition to this, I also took the information from Razor, which established that the Cylon War lasted for around twelve and a half years, and then used these dates to come up with the following timeline, which is based upon the system that’s shown in the episode Hero.

21301 – The Cylon War begins
21302 – The twelve colonies sign the Articles of Colonization
21314 – The Cylon War ends after an armistice is agreed
21354 – The Cylons wipe out the Twelve Colonies of Kobol
21354 – The 52nd Colonial Day anniversary

As you can see, by factoring in the ambiguity of how long it had been since the nuclear holocaust in the episode Colonial Day, we can tentatively place the outbreak of the Cylon War within a six month period prior to the Articles of Colonization being signed.

Matt

[BruceAdama]

A very interesting take, and I applaud you for actually doing the research on it. :)

[BruceAdama]

Okay... I just got done watching the scene in the "Caprica" pilot where the alleged uniforms are seen... I can ASSURE you... those are not the "modern" nuBSG Colonial uniforms. However, they are also not the "RAZOR" version, either. So my guess is that they probably are either pre-unification uniforms, OR, they might actually be a police uniform.

[Commander Scott]

A very interesting take, and I applaud you for actually doing the research on it. :)
Thanks Bruce. :thumbsup:

Okay... I just got done watching the scene in the "Caprica" pilot where the alleged uniforms are seen... I can ASSURE you... those are not the "modern" nuBSG Colonial uniforms. However, they are also not the "RAZOR" version, either. So my guess is that they probably are either pre-unification uniforms, OR, they might actually be a police uniform.
Using modern navy uniforms and rank representations as a basis for comparison, I’d be inclined to suggest that the naval forces of the twelve colonies wore similarly adorned uniforms and rank devices prior to the federal unification.

This would make addressing a fellow soldier, whether they’re representatives of a friendly world, or an enemy one, as easy as it is for the commissioned officers of the Royal Navy and the United States Navy today.

Matt

[Palpat]

Well, it is, and the wording of your reply actually proves my point...

You said when you're "losing".

If a war were really going THAT badly, there's no way that economic resources that vast would be taken away from the immediate war effort. Absolutely everything we have, would be dedicated to the construction of new Battlestars, Vipers, Raptors, whatever, and the war machine... unifying 12 planets and embarking on a major economic and political restructuring simply would not be a priority.

But, that's just my take. :)
Well, they just won't sit and discuss endlessly about a new currency or some demographical weight in the Quorum: basic stuffs are what the article of Colonization are about: unified military command, proto-government, things like that.
Have a look on the direct inspiration: Continental Congress and the subsequents Articles of Confederation of the 13 colonies during the US war of independence. No need to be that unified to wage a war: US war of independence is IMHO something close to the Cylon War in term of how colonies became united like in BSG.

Articles of Confederation are just what you need to have a sort of hastily unified government. It is also perfect for colonies/planets that could have been independent for millenias and want to keep an huge degree of autonomy:
Establishes the name of the confederation as "The United States of America."

Asserts the equality of the separate states with the confederation government, i.e. "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated."
Establishes the United States as a new nation, a sovereign union of sovereign states, united ". . . for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them . . . ," while declaring that the union is "perpetual," and can only be altered by approval of Congress with ratification by all the state legislatures.
Establishes freedom of movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement)–anyone can pass freely between states, excluding "paupers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauper), vagabonds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagabond_%28person%29), and fugitives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive) from justice." All people are entitled to the rights established by the state into which he travels. If a crime is committed in one state and the perpetrator flees to another state, he will be extradited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition) to and tried in the state in which the crime was committed.
Allocates one vote in the Congress of the Confederation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_the_Confederation) (United States in Congress Assembled) to each state, which was entitled to a delegation of between two and seven members. Members of Congress were appointed by state legislatures; individuals could not serve more than three out of any six years.
Only the central government is allowed to conduct foreign relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy)declare war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war). and to No states may have navies or standing armies, or engage in war, without permission of Congress (although the state militias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia) are encouraged).
When an army is raised for common defense, colonels and military ranks below colonel will be named by the state legislatures.
Expenditures by the United States will be paid by funds raised by state legislatures, and apportioned to the states based on the real property values of each.
Defines the powers of the central government: to declare war, to set weights and measures (including coins), and for Congress to serve as a final court for disputes between states.
Defines a Committee of the States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_the_States) to be a government when Congress is not in session.
Requires nine states to approve the admission of a new state into the confederacy; pre-approves Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Quebec_%281763-1791%29), if it applies for membership.
Reaffirms that the Confederation accepts war debt incurred by Congress before the Articles.
Declares that the Articles are perpetual, and can only be altered by approval of Congress with ratification by all the state legislatures.

[hellkiller1234]

This is Declaration of independence of Untied States of America.

We want Declaration of independence of The 12 Colonies.

[Palpat]

Which do not exist, right?
We are therefore drawn to have a look at real documents that inspired stuffs in the show.
Another point: this is not the US declaration of independence but the Articles of Confederation.
Articles of Confederation, written in time of quite desperate war to somewhat unite distinct colonies; Articles of Colonization, written in time of desperate war to somewhat unit disctinct colonies.
I think the links and inspirations are quite obvious.

[crood]

America had been fighting the war for 2 years prior to the completion of The Articles of Confederation. They weren't ratified, until 1781, the year the war ended. Now it's possible the Continental Congress was acting under the terms of the Articles after 1777, but prior to that they were still executing the war without any common framework.

Even under the Articles, there was no common currency.

As to BSG/Caprica, I get the impression that there's already a great deal of interdependence. We know different colonies have "specialties". This isn't something that just props up. More than likely, given Sam Adama's attitude towards Caprica, there's already Caprican economic dominance of the the colonies. There might even be military dominance, since Caprica can probably afford the best weapons. The Tauron Uprising was probably an attempt at establishing economic indenpendence from Caprica, possibly to get better prices for their goods. It may also have led to the establishment of the Vergis Corporation so that Tauron could better compete with Caprica. The Cylons are probably to quickly stop future uprisings on other colonies. The other colonies may have their own currencies, but Caprican Cubits are the only thing accepted everywhere due to their economic dominance. For example, a lot of Caribbean Islands accept and even prefer U.S. Dollars to local currency.

My guess is that the First Cylon War hits Caprica first and hardest. That's where they're being made and Caprican society seems to be the focus of the monotheists ire. This puts the other colonies on a better footing to get better concessions for a truly unified government and equal rights. Each getis its own Battlestar. Even at that, Caprica still maintains economic and political control for the most part.

[ShadowEnigma]

The Articles of Confederation were a failed attempt at government that were doomed before they were even ratified. They were based on fear of a central government and the pettiness of politicians.

It doesn't take much for governments to work together when their way of life is on the line. Or for people to bring a country around to face a war. Nationalism is one of the most potent adrenaline boosters there is.

[CB2001]

It might be early to post such a thing, but I was quite bothered by the little glimpse we got on Caprican uniforms in Caprica.
When the Cylon is put on trial before the new defense minister, there are some high ranking military officers behind her, and they are wearing uniforms that totally look like the colonial fleet ones.

But what bothers me is that in razor, we saw the First War uniforms and their TOS look.

I know this has already cleared up, but I'm posting this picture so everyone knows what scene/detail is being discussed.

This is the shot that Palpat is talking about:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q94/codebreaker2001/NotTOSRAZORUniforms.jpg