Cylon Torture

[Aset]

One of the biggest controversies surrounding Razor, and the Pegasus in general for that matter, is Gina's Rape & torture. There's a lot of speculation on why it happened, why it's so brutal etc.

Now, I have just finished rewatching Flesh and Bone. Leoben is tortured, pretty severely. Granted, he wasn't raped, but Roslin sent him out an airlock.

Now I have to ask myself...and now you. How is this really any different? Why is the torture of Leoben OK but Gina's not? They're both cylon's. They both have furthered the cylon agenda. They both have mindfucked at least one or more of colonials.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

In the case of Conoy, he wanted to be tortured, he expected it. As he proved to Starbuck, he could have stopped it at any time by killing her. His whole aim was to be the get their attention (either Starbuck's or Roslin's, more so the former than the latter) by falsely claiming that he planted a bomb somewhere in the Fleet. Later he tries to sew distrust by claiming "Adama's a Cylon", which briefly works.

Gina was merely a saboteur. Cain wanted her degraded because of her betrayal, not because she had any information. Of course, extracting information wasn't the point of the torture; Pegasus and her crew didn't get anything strategic out of her, at all.

And the Cylons have tortured humans as well... It's insinuated in Occupation and Precipice, and D'Anna tortures Baltar in "Torn".

[Rukia]

I suppose the classic reason is to how its different is the gender. Gina being female and Leoben being male.

I guess that is where some of the controversy is coming from.

Although the above is not my opinion just an observation.

[JDS]

I don't know, I think it's because a lot of people have this perception that women don't enjoy fun surprise sex with strangers. They like to use words that don't make any sense like "rape" and "sexual assault".

On a more serious note...I think on a psychological level, Kara appears to be torturing Leoben purely because she believes that she has to do it, however distasteful it may be, whereas the Pegasus crew appear to be enjoying it and would do it with or without orders. Viewers are more comfortable with a soldier "doing a tough job" than one "letting off some steam by beating up on the prisoner".

[aylinn]

I think it's also because Helena and Gina had relationship. Seeing them together and then hearing Cain ordering Thorne to torture Gina the way he wants was not nice. As it was earlier said, Leoben wanted to be tortured, he played with Kara and Roslin and Gina expected death after she was caught not torture and rape.
And what is significant, in my opinion, you just like Gina. She's nice and helpful and when she looks at Helena she really feels something for her. She could kill Cain on the CIC but she flinched and she paid the cost. Helena didn't want any information (later about the resurrection ship), she just wanted her to suffer because Gina broke her heart.
And yes, I like Gina and hate Leoben, so I don't really care about him ;)

[BlackTigh]

At the end of the day:


They are only Cylons!!


And anyway, how does anyone know that what they express as pain is not simply a conditioned, outward response devoid of any internal "painful" sensations and programmed to be displayed under any occasion of "torture" by a captor or when "undercover" and posing as a suffering human?

If I was designing Cylons, that's what I would do: pre-program the unit to screw with the heads of the captors by displaying pain and anguish, just as a human would do when tortured. Eventually someone, like Helo or the others, will feel sorry for the poor Cylon, who must be feeling just like we humans would, and stop tormenting it.

I certainly would NOT program in real pain to be the result of actions which would cause humans pain. A Cylon has no need of pain in the way a human does. It would be silly and counter-productive for them to be made to experience it.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Very good points, BlackTigh.

The Cylons are programmed machines. They can easily be programmed to emulate human emotions.

One of the more maddening aspects of the show is the fact that they've really never tackled why the Cylons decided to go with the human form to begin with. I hope that they'll tackle this in the fourth season, aside from throwaway dialogue like "this form brings us closer to God".

The bad part of the series is that they still haven't given us any truly meaty backstory on the Cylons. It's all been fairly one- to two-dimensional, which is sad really.

[JDS]

Yeah, the thing about the Cylons is that we really don't know how they were, or are, programmed. We don't know who programmed them and we don't know how specifically or accurately they could be programmed.

[Briggart]

IIRC back on New Caprica, the Cavil that got wounded when the resistance stopped the execution, told to a bunch of other cylons how much more painful the resurrection process got each time, so I kind of assume that the humanoid cylons feel pain more or less like us.

[BlackTigh]

the Cavil ... told to a bunch of other cylons how much more painful the resurrection process got each time, so I kind of assume that the humanoid cylons feel pain more or less like us.


Oh yeah that's true, I forgot about that. Doesn't make sense though. Why create pain for them?

I suppose it has something to do with airy-fairyness and pseudo-human group-hugginess stuff??? The cylons are human too?

Bah, I'm old school.

[Steelviper]

Yeah, the thing about the Cylons is that we really don't know how they were, or are, programmed. We don't know who programmed them and we don't know how specifically or accurately they could be programmed.

The existence of the Cylons as a menacing opposing force has always been something that both versions of the show seemed to take for granted. I'm guessing that Caprica, if it ever gets off the ground, will likely be the mechanism that would reveal the origins of the Cylons in detail.

[Briggart]

Oh yeah that's true, I forgot about that. Doesn't make sense though. Why create pain for them?

I suppose it has something to do with airy-fairyness and pseudo-human group-hugginess stuff??? The cylons are human too?

Bah, I'm old school.

Well, pain is a biological translation of something like
"Warning: current condition exceeds safety parameters. System damage or failure is likely" :D

In general, I think that from a biological point cylons are stronger and more resistant than humans (i.e. stronger, more resistant, ecc...) but not by too far. You really don't need super-efficient bodies if you can just download to a new one when the current one gets too damaged.

[JDS]

I think there are limits on how far you can exceed human parameters while still making yourself nearly indistinguishable from humans.

[aylinn]

If I were creating cyborgs that would look like humans and were to act like them, then of course I would give them the sense of pain, humor, empathy, anger, hate, even love and not in a way that their program would send them a message that this is what they feel right now but in a way that they wouldn't even know what and why it is happening so they could learn.
So I think that pain felt by Gina was real and not artificial. What surprised me was the look Gina gave to Lt. Thorne when he came into the cell. If I were at her place and saw this guy coming in I would peed my pants, and she seemed rather surprised as if she didn't know what will happen. I mean, if she never experienced that or even heard of that how was she suppose to know what the word "torture" mean especially when Cain said Thorne to "interrogate the prisoner". In a normal world interrogation mean asking questions and not using rape and pain.

[JDS]

I dunno, Thorne doesn't look particularly imposing to me...after taking out two Marines in about three seconds, I wouldn't be THAT scared of him at first glance.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I dunno, Thorne doesn't look particularly imposing to me...after taking out two Marines in about three seconds, I wouldn't be THAT scared of him at first glance.

Hell, she probably laughed when he whipped it out. :D

[aylinn]

I dunno, Thorne doesn't look particularly imposing to me...after taking out two Marines in about three seconds, I wouldn't be THAT scared of him at first glance.

OK she took out two guys in a few seconds, but later on she was tied and she couldn't actually protect herself, so that's a different situation. Maybe Gina believed somehow that when Thorne came, he came to kill her, but I think that when she heard Cain telling Thorne what to do her, she still didn't believe that Admiral will allow this.

[JDS]

I know she was tied up, I'm just making the point that Fulvio Cecere doesn't strike me as an imposing or scary kinda guy, at least not what I've seen of him. He DOES have that Merv the Perv look to him, though...

If I were in Gina's place and saw this guy coming in my first impression would be You're going to have to do better than this, Cain!

[Aset]

I have to wonder as well though. When Leoben was being tortured, he broke his shackles with relative ease. Basically showing Starbuck that he was restarained because he allowed it. The Pegasus crew would not know about this & would have restrained her by normal procedures. (I am of course assuming Galactica did the same thing) Now, why did she not break those restraints? Why did she allow it to continue? I could be reaching here, but if it was me & I found out a prisoner I was restraining could easily break the restraints? I'd be a little mroe careful on my techniques.

[JDS]

I dunno, Leoben was restrained on some civilian ship, not a modern battlestar with a fancy new brig like Pegasus. The Pegasus crew SAW how fast she knocked the Marines over, I bet they knew she needed some serious equipment. Also, a ring around the neck is harder to deal with than shackles around the wrists.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Right, plus the Galactica people had Sharon and, later, other Cylons (like Simon in AMOS) shackled up pretty nicely as well.

[JDS]

Yeah, as a general rule, military vessels are equipped to properly handle prisoners. Civilian vessels...not really.

[Aset]

That may be the case...but why would the military interrogate without making sure the prisoner is properly secured?

[JDS]

That's a good question...I think the civilians secured Leoben and the military just took their word for it that we was locked up properly.