So do we believe the Hybrid?

[JDS]

Is the Hybrid telling the truth about Kara Thrace? What are his motives? Does he even REALLY know what Kara will do?

[aylinn]

I think the Hybrid knew. In new spot from the 4th season there is a quote where she says "Why can't you trust me? I saw Earth" and "We're going the wrong way". So maybe the Hybrid knew more about Kara than anybody else. And maybe it was right not to follow Kara.

[Zikenol]

Remember the Hybrid is on the side of the Cylons. believe nothing they say, EVER!

[JDS]

Was he?

The rest of the Cylons considered him obsolete, so they would have scrapped his entire basestar if they had gotten to him before the Colonials did.

I don't think we can look at the Hybrid as "just another Cylon", but I'm not sure what his angle really was.

[ThPrime]

Listen to the podcast. You can skip ahead to Razor Story Meeting, Part 4 (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/season04/) Nearly all of the hybrid discussion is contained in this last part.

Warning. Podcast is not canon. Podcast shows writer's intent, delivered orally, from a draft script, and unapproved. It is the listener's responsibility to separate wild writer discussion (like Kendrabots :eek:) from material that actually became part of on screen Razor. And pick up on gray areas that may or may not become part of season four.

So is the hybrid telling the truth about Kara? What might his motives be? For lying or for honesty? How can he possibly know what Kara will do?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Well, I believe that the hybrid is telling the truth... up to a certain point.

However, what that point happens to be is beyond me.

[ThPrime]

Bare minimum, you can skip ahead to last 7:30 (@39:30) of Part 4. For half an hour the writers bat around ideas about how to end Razor. The silent pauses get longer and longer. Suddenly in two minutes RDM rattles off the ending straight off the top of his head. And its the exact ending you do see in Razor, right down to the dialog. Bear in mind, he's hearing this story pitched for the very first time. That is impressive. Ron Moore = head writer.

[BklynBruzer]

Pardon my language, but personally, I think the Hybrid was engaging in that old favored Cylon pastime - mindfucking.

[DBC562]

Hello new to the forums..

Got to believe the hybrid is telling a version of the truth. What was the whole point of Razor? No new characters were introduced, except the "major". Yeah we got a little background story, but I can't believe the whole point of the movie is to act as a filler between 2 seasons. The whole point to razor is to get the idea that Kara is somehow bad..

[Rukia]

It could be true what the Hybrid is saying or it could be a complete lie. I suppose the whole 'its happened before, it will happen again' plays a part in it somewhere. How do we know that they haven't changed anything this time round.

The only thing that strikes me is that the Hybrids words and Kara's return will just lead to more suspicion. I'm not sure to believe the Hybrid or not, it could just be another trick.

[aylinn]

Nah, I think it's great that they showed what happened on Pegasus before they found Galactica and what happened after Lee became a commander. If showing that Kara is bad was the point of the movie than it wouldn't make any sense because the hybrid didn't say that Kara's evil but it said not to follow her because she will lead the humanity to the end. Kara seems to be unaware of the fact that she is some kind of messenger of doom or whatever. If she knew than maybe I'd agree :).
I don't believe Hybrid. I learnt that you can't trust Cylons especially when you meet them for the first time. Is Hybrid a god? Well, old Cylons believed that but I think it's some kind of robot or a Cylon especially in the moment when, before Kendra nukes the ship, it starts repeating "again" as if it was program's error.
Maybe it works on Windows... :P

[DBC562]

Forgot about the again, again, again...

Quick question about Razor. Was Razor shot will all new scenes or were alot of the scenes with Kain deleted scenes from a previous season?

I don't know, maybe I missed something important in Razor. All I got was an entertaining long episode, that in the last 10-15 minutes revealed the hybrid. I was really suprised that the only thing of substance the hybrid says is the warning. Guess I just expected more at the end of a 2 hour production that leads into possibly the final season.

[ouiouiwewe]

If the hybrid was lying, he wouldn't have jammed the signal.

[aylinn]

But we don't know if it was the hybrid that jammed the signal or was it some Cylon centurion doing it. That's the problem that we acctually don't know anything about the Hybrid. If it wanted to jam the signal what was the point of saying the information about Starbuck to Kendra?

[JDS]

Actually, I think the again again again thing was on purpose.

Before that, I was thinking of posting on here to ask everybody's opinion...when the scrolls say "All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again", does that mean that everything happens twice, once in ancient history and once now? Or does that mean everything cycles forever, repeating into eternity?

I think the Hybrid pretty much explained it.

[Spencerian]

I think the emphasis on "All this has happened before and will happen again" was quite on purpose, and here's why.

In my bit of faith studies as well as interest in the philosophy of the Matrix movies, I've come across the concept of samsara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara_%28Buddhism%29). In Buddhist and other religions, samsara is the endless cycle of birth, suffering in life, and death.

The goal in Buddhism is to break the cycle by enlightenment, the realization that attachment binds you to samsara.

The Cylons and the Kobollian faith represent samsara. The Humanoid Cylons are, by their nature of resurrection and imitation of the twelve archetypes (flaws? strengths?) of humanity, perpetually in the loop of samsara. They cannot escape because it is their design to imitate humanity, self-preservation, and many of the other human trappings.

Humans are also locked in samsara because they cannot break the cycle of suffering based on their fixed idea of life and death as a finality. They have not been enlightened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi). The Pythian prophesy holds them to this philosophically as well.

Kara Thrace is another matter. She has learned to break the cycle of life and death and see between it. Moreover, she has returned to help all others find what she has found, a form of freedom from suffering. She is basically a bodhisattva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva).

The Cylons fear Thrace because, as creatures bound to samsara, they cannot see out and and understand what she has experienced. To them, any alternative outside of the loops of life and death they experience is a fate like getting boxed. Humans will have a similar feeling about Thrace, and will not believe she has learned to be outside of this form of existence.

The Matrix was a perfect form of samsara, where Zion is born and dies, and the Matrix was reborn/rebooted. Each time, the One (as Neo was) is also reborn, a perpetual attempt by the system and humanity to break the cycle.

Just my two cents, but Moore's use of religious overtones strongly fit this model. Otherwise without Kara's ultimate help (which is more than just finding Earth, IMO), they will find Earth, forget everything, relearn some of themselves, Earth becomes a Kobol, the tribes leave, the Cylons are reborn, and the cycle continues.

[Orion]

Hi everybody,

But we don't know if it was the hybrid that jammed the signal or was it some Cylon centurion doing it. That's the problem that we acctually don't know anything about the Hybrid. If it wanted to jam the signal what was the point of saying the information about Starbuck to Kendra?

If the hybrid was lying, he wouldn't have jammed the signal.

If the hybrid was NOT lying, why did he tell the thing in the first place and then jam the signal? There's a lot of confusion about the Hybrid. Elsewhere I argue that the Final Five probably don't resurrect, but doesn't he call Kendra "my child"? Is Kendra thus the last Cylon and needs to be informed - regardless of the other humans. So if only she is supposed to know, then jamming the signal becomes logical again.

Yeah, I know, wild, wild guess, and most probably not true. I just add it here because of the confused stuff the Hybrid utters.

Also, remember: "For all practical purposes, the Hybrid is the basestar", so it's porobably not a centurion jamming the signal independently of the Hybrid.

[ThPrime]

Update: word corrections, capitalizations from DVD subtitles. For this scene, broadcast and extended versions are identical.

All this happened has happened before and will happen again. Come in Major, I've been waiting for you for a long time.

You're what all this is about aren't you? What are you?

What am I? A man? Or am I a machine? My children believe I am a God.

Are you a God?

I have seen things. Your life Kendra Shaw. The things you have done. Things you felt you had to do. All leading to this moment. Do you wish to be forgiven, my child?

(Scylla flashback)

Do you wish to be forgiven?

Yes.

Then come closer. There's something I have to tell you. Come. Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end.

What?

She is the herald of the Apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.

(Pegasus, evac Raptor inbound. Extraction complete. Clear base ship. Raptor's on its way back, sir. They have Starbuck aboard. Major Shaw stayed behind. Starbuck?)

Actual, this is Red One. Come in.

Red One, this is Pegasus Actual. Report.

Commander, I've gotta warn you. It's Captain Thrace...

Red One, report!

They're jamming us again sir.

Red One, this is Actual come in.

We lost her.

Actual, come in. Actual.

As my own existence comes to a close, only to begin anew in ways uncertain.

You're scared, aren't you, motherfrakker? You should be.

All this has happened before and will happen again. Again (x9)

[Ralf_hawkins]

I do beleive that the hybrid is telling the truth. He asked the major, if she wanted forgiveness for her past actions. By telling about Kara, he did just that. He showed her, that her actions are nothing compared to what Kara will do in the future.

[aylinn]

But the problem is that we don't know what Kara will do in the future and if she'll really lead humanity to its end. What is this end anyway? Is it really death, extinction or is it the new beginning for humanity and the end for Cylons?

[Skyhawk]

@ Spencerian: I believe you are perfectly right in your theory!
These quasi-religious analogys really give the show a unique feel.

Remember that the intro music in every episode is a buddhist mantra ?

[JDS]

I thought it was Hindu.

[Spencerian]

I thought it was Hindu.

The language is Hindi. The religion or culture is Hindu.

[JDS]

The language is Hindi. The religion or culture is Hindu.Yeah, I know. He said it was Buddhist, but I thought it was a mantra making references to Hindu religious beliefs.

[ThPrime]

Don't forget that the Cylons are quoting "All of this has happened before..." from the sacred scroll of Pythia.

From the podcast, the scene in the Pegasus hangar has Roslin reading two passages from the sacred scrolls concerning: "The sacred warriors who guard the white whale." and "The leaders shall purchase the peace through(?) the descrecation of the scene (?) of the Old One."

This dialog doesn't make the cut in the final Razor telefilm. But is there no new prophecy anywhere in Razor? The proto-hybrid speaks to Shaw almost conversationally except for...

Googling "herald of the apocalypse" reveals it to be a common phrase. Recently, the phrase is frequently associated with President Bush by political pundits and Islamics alike.

The phrase's earliest origins are related to the 27th chapter of the Koran, Surah Al-Naml. Itself sharing many similarities to earlier apocryphal Christian texts, where are found this variation on the book of revelations.

In Al-Naml, verse 82, Dabbetül-Arz (http://www.endoftimes.net/02signsofdoomsday.html) is borne from the Earth. A Dabbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dabbe) is "a thing or creature that speaks and gives a particular message, which is addressed to all of mankind." This Dabbe chastises man for failing to heed the previous omens leading to End of Days, Judgment Day. The Dabbe is the final sign of apocalypse. A turkish horror film D@bbe (http://twitchfilm.net/archives/004326.html) uses this as its protagnist, where the Dabbe in question is a thing; the internet.

Rough english translations from the Koran:

"Do they not ponder these words? Has anything come to them that did not come to their ancestors, the previous peoples?"

"When the doom shall be ready to light upon them, we will cause a monster to come forth to them out of the earth, and cry to them "Verily men have not firmly believed our signs."

"And on that day shall be gathered out of every nation a company of those who have gainsaid our signs, in separate bands."

This looks like yet another influence out of the many used to synthesize the mythology of Battlestar.

So is the proto-hybrid merely identifying Kara Thrace as the herald of the apocalypse, who is foretold in the sacred scrolls of the Colonials?

[Aset]

I believe we first need to answer the question, do we take what he said as a whole? Or is it meant to be broken into it's parts?

Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.

That is what he said. By the way it's uttered we are supposed to take what it says as a whole. I don't think it will end up being so.

On the whole, yes that pronouncement is pretty dire. But, we have reason to doubt that statement taken as a whole. There are several reasons for my saying that. First among them is, this is a time honored dramatic hook. Never take prophesies like that at their face value, it's always something deeper. Secondly, from past episodes we know that hybrids speak seemingly random thoughts. Yes this one seemed coherent, that doesn't mean you should take everything he says on it's face.

Let's break down what he said: she "will lead the human race to it's end." What end? The end of the journey? The end of the war? The end of humanity? Earth? What?

"She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death." Whose apocalypse? Whose death? Which "she" does he mean? Obviously we're supposed to assume humanity's apocalypse, but that is where the danger lies in taking it at face value. This sentence is a seperate declaration, given the level of sophistication in this show, the obvious answer is the wrong one.

"They must not follow her." Who are "They"? The humans? The cylons? One could argue he's referring to the cylon's & he's prophsying their destruction. If they follow the humans to earth, Kara Thrace will be the instrument of their destruction. He could mean the humans....there's no context to reference.

[ThPrime]

I have word from trusted, scurrilous authority, the proto-hybrid pronounces an all new extended prophecy in the extended, uncut version of Razor. A virtual Gettysburg address, on and on and on. He literally won't shaddup. Nothing to do with Kara?!?!? Whoa.

So if you haven't pre-ordered, grab your DVDs from a fine retailer's shelf come Tuesday. Hopefully, the Outer Zone (http://www.scifi.com/tinman/) should keep us plenty preoccupied until then. Crabby patties, Best Buy has an exclusive bonus disc bundled with Razor.

P.S. Netflix members can also put Razor in their queues NOW. They mail out Tuesday new releases on Mondays. No lengthy wait warning up yet.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Sweet. I look forward to the DVD. It seemed to me that there were some things missing from Razor anyway... but that might be because I knew that there was more on the DVD already. :D

[james968]

If the hybrid was lying, he wouldn't have jammed the signal.

I was wondering why the jamming stopped and started just as Shaw got out the first sentence of her warning.

(Not sure if the Hybrid was responsible or not. On a "modern" base star I would think the Hybrid would control jamming.

Also WTF is going on with trying to have a live conversation with a covert team that has been inserted into enemy territory??? If the cylons can jam the signal, they can probably figure out, its coming from inside the ship. (Maybe a 1 second signal to say "We're in" , but not a full conversation).

[JDS]

The whole idea that a Basestar is armored heavily enough to take a nuclear strike but a tiny little ear-mounted radio can transmit through the hull seemed pretty improbable in the first place, so I think I just suspended disbelief on the entire communications setup there.

[Ralf_hawkins]

But the problem is that we don't know what Kara will do in the future and if she'll really lead humanity to its end. What is this end anyway? Is it really death, extinction or is it the new beginning for humanity and the end for Cylons?


I think we do know the ending. The thing is most of us don't want to really accept it. The show is drama based. In my opinion, it is not an end well show, like Star Trek (They find Earth and live well happily ever after). Up to now the show emphasized on the dark side of human nature, the flaws and weakness. Even at the expense of ratings (up to a degree.) In my opinion Kara like Mosus bringing the fleet to the promise land is out of the question.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Personally, I would like to see the Cylons and Colonials simply nuke Earth from orbit together. Think about it... the underlining story is "all this has happened before, and all this will happen again", and settling Earth seems to be the point of return, which allows the circle of time to be reset. Nuke Earth to hell and you've broken that.

[Seanathin]

I have this feeling that when the finaly get to earth, there is going to be a huge drag out knock down fight, and very few humans and Cylons are going to survive it. Most defently not the Glactica or any of the Base stars.

[JDS]

Personally, I would like to see the Cylons and Colonials simply nuke Earth from orbit together. Think about it... the underlining story is "all this has happened before, and all this will happen again", and settling Earth seems to be the point of return, which allows the circle of time to be reset. Nuke Earth to hell and you've broken that.Why would the Colonials WANT to break the cycle? The Cylons might not like it because it's part of the scriptures that go along with the Lords of Kobol, but to the Colonials it's just the way that things are supposed to be.

I think that my original idea would work best if you're going to set everything up to happen again...I want them to find Earth with the ENTIRE Cylon fleet in tow, at which point Earth opens up on the Cylons with a giant barrage of planetary railgun fire or something and everybody fights everybody until the whole Cylon fleet is wiped out...and then the Colonials settle down on Earth and everybody forgets their past mistakes and heads towards splitting up, re-colonizing the stars, and eventually building another sentient race to turn against them...

[Bossman]

I just think the Hybrid was speaking in half-truths, like Leoben. Cylons twist the truth a bit just to frak with people's minds.

[Ralf_hawkins]

Why would the Colonials WANT to break the cycle? The Cylons might not like it because it's part of the scriptures that go along with the Lords of Kobol, but to the Colonials it's just the way that things are supposed to be.

I think that my original idea would work best if you're going to set everything up to happen again...I want them to find Earth with the ENTIRE Cylon fleet in tow, at which point Earth opens up on the Cylons with a giant barrage of planetary railgun fire or something and everybody fights everybody until the whole Cylon fleet is wiped out...and then the Colonials settle down on Earth and everybody forgets their past mistakes and heads towards splitting up, re-colonizing the stars, and eventually building another sentient race to turn against them...

If the Cylons didn't want the Cycle to be broken, then they would have easily destroyed Galactica's fleet (the Cylons use to follow from a distance.) Or they would have nuke all the humans on New Caprica to start with. With skeleton crews on the remaining ships, it would have been easy to hunt them down and destroy them. The Cylons have far superior forces. Several base ships. They are machines. Unless there is an hidden huge, Black op, colonial fleet of battlestars somewhere, that we are not aware of, I doubt that the Cylons could be wiped out. Also who says that Earth as the technology to fight the Cylons. It could be still at the stone age era. If Earth would have the super tech to fight the Cylons then the show would lose its drama edge. Sadly Earth demise is what is forecast in the future.

[JDS]

I didn't say the CYLONS don't want the cycle to be broken, they probably DO. I said that the COLONIALS don't want the cycle to be broken.

And no, we don't know what state Earth is in right now...I'm just saying what I'd like to see, and why it would perfectly fit the mantra of "All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again."

[bradtem]

While I see a lot of clues that the Hybrid is the Cylon god (he sort of says that) the podcast suggests that instead he is just in very close contact with the cylon god. Either way he's not lying. The Cylon god is not on anybody's side, I think. He's on his own side. And this Hybrid, unlike the Cylons, considers himself both man and machine and link to god, and is not on any particular side either.

So he's not lying, I think. The warning furthers his own agenda, or the Cylon god's.

[Bossman]

I've often wondered if in fact, the Cylon god was really human. Like Dr Ravashol of the original series.

[Finch]

i only read up to the direct part from the movie so forgive me if someone pointed this out already. the hybrid says my children think i am a god, then kendra wants to be forgiven, and he says come closer my child. Maybe kendra is a cylon and he tells her that stuff about the end comming etc....because if they reach earth it will be the end of the cylons, not the humans.

[sWozzie]

First off the hybrid asks Kendra if she wants to be forgiven (for killing civilians), she says Yes and then he says "Then come closer, there is something something I have to tell you"

This implies that what he is about to tell her will somehow allow her to be forgiven?


The hybrid then says "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end".

The end doesn't have to mean end of human race, it could just as easily mean the end of the human journey ie Earth

"She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death"

'herald of the apocalypse' doesn't have to mean she is the cause of a great cataclysm, it can also mean she is an important player in the triumph of good over evil.

harbinger also means someone that is sent ahead in advance of others, possibly to prepare the way - so you can read this to mean she will be sent ahead (to Earth), which we know is true

"they must not be allowed to follow her"

'they' could mean either the humans or cyclons (since the hybrid is an older cyclon he could be referring the newer version)?

So the simple way to inteprete this is that Kara Thrace will lead the humans to the end of their existence.

However, I think its more likely and consistent with what the hybrid says that Kara Thrace will be sent ahead to Earth (harbinger, herald) to prepare or at least find the way in order to lead the others humans to Earth (the end) and if the cyclons follow then that will be the end of them (apocalpyse)!

I have no idea why telling Kendra this will allow her to be forgiven and why the hybrid (probably) jammed her and stopped her from telling the others.

I suspect that the older cyclons will appear in Season 4 and they won't be too friendly with the newer cyclons, therefore its possible the hybrid didn't want Kendra to tell the Pegasus about Kara in case it made them lose trust in her and therefore mean they won't be able to find Earth - he wants them to find Earth and he wants them to wipe out the newer type cyclon?

[Ralf_hawkins]

I have no idea why telling Kendra this will allow her to be forgiven and why the hybrid (probably) jammed her and stopped her from telling the others.



One way for someone to forgive himself is to compare his actions with actions of another person. Kendra's actions (killing few innocent people) is nothing compared to killing the entire human race.

[mariarilke]

Hmmn, does anybody know the etymology of cylon? coz i just realized this similarity.

cylon= cycle

Coincidence? Are they programmed to perpetuate something? The wars of humanity? hehe just throwing out wild ideas.

[genji2000]

Hmmn, does anybody know the etymology of cylon? coz i just realized this similarity.

cylon= cycle

Coincidence? Are they programmed to perpetuate something? The wars of humanity? hehe just throwing out wild ideas.

CYbernetic Life-fOrm Node