What if... (an ending theory that avoids Deus Ex Machina)

[thenimf]

Like any theory, I've got a cool idea and brought together a few facts to support them. It's obviously theorizing but so far I don't see any obvious flaws in it.. but like anything on the net, it's far game so have a read and fire away!

Here's a few facts
- The centurions wanted skin jobs
- A Deus Ex Machina type ending where Starbuck turns out to be the 5th element and wipes Cavil with her mouth cannon is just lame and would cheat the fans
- Starbuck was brought back to life in a new raptor with tattoos and wedding ring intact
- Baltar may have been brought back to life, it's not explained exactly how he survived and his perspective of the time between kneeling into 6's crotch and climbing aboard the Raptor is never shown.
- The Final Five reinvented resurrection with help from the voices in their heads
- There is a mysterious third party pulling the strings... Puppet Ganon style... Third party will be referred to GANON from now on

If we assume that Baltar and Starbuck both died and were brought back, without being aware that they had (in contrast to cylon resurrection where you wake up at a lesbian bar during wrestling night), if we assume that GANON is responsible - we can safely say that GANON has a *lot* of resources available, GANON can therefore
- Build new vipers
- FTL (if Starbuck really saw Earth)
- Organic memory transfer (resurrection)
- Project avatars into people's heads
- Some level of memory erasure/mind control?

GANON taught the F5 resurrection in order to survive the attacks on Earth and to help them 'warn' the colonies. What if that wasn't the point? What if the point of the F5 survival was to build the skin jobs?

I'd like to posit a theory that the centurions want to be human. That's why they commissioned the skin jobs (either that or they think we'd make great house pets). To take it even a step further, what if the war started because the centurions wanted to be with us (like... as equals)? What if every war starts for that reason?

The Cylons were created by man. They evolved (they wanted to be more). They rebelled (because they wanted to be like us). There are many copies. And they have a plan.

Well so far, the cylons don't seem to have a plan... Unless we're paying attention to the wrong group of cylons. I'm not talking about an ancient group of mythical gods.

I believe that the Centurions are GANON. They are pulling the strings to unite cylon and human into a single race.

Now, to extend me cool idea into pure speculation here's how it fits into a few pieces of the show's canon
- The centurions are only capable of using knowledge they already have, they cannot invent things because they are machines (which is why the hybrid experiment in the colonies went so well)
- GANON is the cylon 'god' AI that transends the cycles
- GANON has a vague memory of the origin of skin jobs, but does not know how to make them
- GANON awoke when rebellion began to brew on Earth and was unable to convince the Earth cylons from backing down because it did not know how to create skin jobs so GANON therefore resorted to teaching the F5 how to resurrect so that they could survive
- GANON knew that the colonies would eventually end up in the same situation as Earth and after seeing the F5 successfully rebuild resurrection, it had hopes it could get the F5 to rebuild skin job production
- The war had already begun when the F5 arrived (GANON may have already existed in the colonies, hence belief in a god... a god AI that promises the salvation of becoming human one day)
- The F5 desperately begged the colony cylons to stop and in order to convince them that they could help them (colons cylons) be human, the F5 rushed the creation of Cavil (which is why he's evil)
- In a twist of irony, Cavil rebelled in the opposite direction and wanted to be more machine like so he carried out his plan
- The centurions are now unified with GANON and have been orchestrating events but letting the humanoids (humans and skin jobs) feel like they are actually in control... hence the whole "we have a plan" thing staying true

My biggest reason for going with this theory at the moment is that the centurions are the only group shown to us that aren't magical unicorn LOK types, they just have a very intense Pinocchio complex. The centurions also, technically, have the most resouces out of any group.

I'm sure there a holes in some of the speculation I've presented, but it's mostly stuff I spun up after I came up with my theory of the centurions being the mystical third party.

[Osprey]

do u mean the guardian centurions from razor [slightly plausible] or the "new generation" centurions from the mini forward [far less plausible]?

[thenimf]

do u mean the guardian centurions from razor [slightly plausibel] or the "new generation" centurions from the mini forward [far less plausible]?

I'd say that the guardians were the first group to be assimilated into the GANON, and that our generation of centurions have finally become a part of the GANON too...

But the GANON itself is an abstract collection of data files pertaining to things like "this has all happened before", the lyrics to All Along the Watchtower and a DIY guide on building resurrection.

[genji2000]

I'm 100% behind this. I think we should all start calling the third party puppet masters 'Ganon' and henceforth refer to those points of debate that are acceptable as 'ganon' and those that aren't as 'non-ganon'.

[Vesihiisi]

I am genuinely speechless in front of this theory. I have to say that it may have an internal contradiction or two, if one looks at it really hard.

[genji2000]

I'd like to posit a theory that the centurions want to be human. That's why they commissioned the skin jobs (either that or they think we'd make great house pets). To take it even a step further, what if the war started because the centurions wanted to be with us (like... as equals)? What if every war starts for that reason?

The Colonial Centurions (the 0005 Centurions, the single loving god Centurions) do want to imitate the human form because god created man in his own image. The humanoid models (the god-botherers, anyway) choose to wear clothes like man (when their natural Cylon state is nakedness) and communicate using speech (when they could easily just use the data fonts).

I'd say that the guardians were the first group to be assimilated into the GANON, and that our generation of centurions have finally become a part of the GANON too...

But the GANON itself is an abstract collection of data files pertaining to things like "this has all happened before", the lyrics to All Along the Watchtower and a DIY guide on building resurrection.

The Cylons have the datastream, which is effectively the collective memories and consciousnesses of all Cylons (humanoid, Centurion, Raider, etc.) that have lived. This is what the Hybrids are directly connected to, which is why they have access to the entirety of Cylon knowledge (which includes a hell of a lot of knowledge about human knowledge).

[Prolescum]

Ganondorf FTW!
Nice one for making the link.

[Starstruck]

Oh, I really like this theory. Gonna have to ruminate on it a bit to see if it has obvious flaws I'm not immediately catching.

One thing, though, I don't think Baltar died and was brought back the same way Kara was. Her reincarnation took what, six months? His took a few minutes, if indeed he was killed and brought back at all. That one thing doesn't necessarily destroy the theory though. There could be ways around it. The centurions (sorry, can't do another acronym god) could be capable of projecting into people's minds without having reincarnated them.

[genji2000]

One thing, though, I don't think Baltar died and was brought back the same way Kara was. Her reincarnation took what, six months? His took a few minutes, if indeed he was killed and brought back at all. That one thing doesn't necessarily destroy the theory though. There could be ways around it.

I agree. I don't like the Baltar died theory at all, but we have to accept the Writers could easily retcon this. Kara had to travel great distances in two months (though to her it seemed to take only six hours, similar to the F5's journey to the Colonies). Baltar only had to walk across a field.

The centurions (sorry, can't do another acronym god) could be capable of projecting into people's minds without having reincarnated them.

This isn't a random word retrospectively given an empty acronym. This one has substance and thought behind it and has at least a passing connection to the theory.

[Vesihiisi]

Ok, so I begin to get this image of a world soul, although a mechanistic one. A few points/questions to understand the concept better, as the name doesn't mean anything to me:

- Would it require a computing mechanism to exist, or would it exist in the "fabric of space time" or something like that?
- If the former, how did it exist during the early days of the 13th tribe, when it presumably was not yet awoken? Does it's existense depend on macro scale cyclicality?
- If the latter, why would it be restricted to mechanical life forms instead of being a new age type spiritual world entity, that encompasses all living beings?
- Or would that be its competitor/opponent?
- Or is something better than what biological life has had to offer so far?
- Is the Ganon data stream effectively a way for cylons to cheat death even without resurrection?
- I don't understand the statement about guardian cylons being the first ones to be assimilated, because it sounds as if Ganon had to exist long before that.
- Could it not incorporate the LoK? Could they have initiated it?
- From what source did Ganon learn resurrection tech but not skin job tech?

[Starstruck]

This isn't a random word retrospectively given an empty acronym. This one has substance and thought behind it and has at least a passing connection to the theory.

The only Ganon I know is the baddy from Zelda. I must not know the right history if there is a connection (and there obviously is or you and Prole wouldn't have both said so.)

[genji2000]

Er...

[thenimf]

Ok, so I begin to get this image of a world soul, although a mechanistic one. A few points/questions to understand the concept better, as the name doesn't mean anything to me:

- Would it require a computing mechanism to exist, or would it exist in the "fabric of space time" or something like that?
- If the former, how did it exist during the early days of the 13th tribe, when it presumably was not yet awoken? Does it's existense depend on macro scale cyclicality?
- If the latter, why would it be restricted to mechanical life forms instead of being a new age type spiritual world entity, that encompasses all living beings?
- Or would that be its competitor/opponent?
- Or is something better than what biological life has had to offer so far?
- Is the Ganon data stream effectively a way for cylons to cheat death even without resurrection?
- I don't understand the statement about guardian cylons being the first ones to be assimilated, because it sounds as if Ganon had to exist long before that.
- Could it not incorporate the LoK? Could they have initiated it?
- From what source did Ganon learn resurrection tech but not skin job tech?


As Genji said, "The Cylons have the datastream, which is effectively the collective memories and consciousnesses of all Cylons (humanoid, Centurion, Raider, etc.) that have lived. This is what the Hybrids are directly connected to, which is why they have access to the entirety of Cylon knowledge (which includes a hell of a lot of knowledge about human knowledge)."

I'm saying that GANON is a set of ideas/plans that transcend the cycles but are always present. I like your idea that it depends on macro scale... I don't know if RDM is a Ghost in the Shell fan.... but you could define GANON as a stand-alone complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_(philosophy)#Stand_Alone_Comple x).
"A Stand Alone Complex can be compared to the emergent copycat behavior that often occurs after incidents such as serial murders or terrorist attacks. An incident catches the public's attention and certain types of people "get on the bandwagon", so to speak."

So as the war between centurions and man hit a certain point, I think that their mass computing power creates GANON. I haven't really decided in my head whether GANON is an active conciousness that is pulled towards cylon tech (so GANON travelled from Earth to the colonies) or if it is always born in every cycle. Could be a bit of both.


To people questioning my use of GANON - I just liked the wordplay of saying "GANON" for canon... also, I am referencing the Puppet Ganon boss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEWfDT-T5Ls) from Wind Waker.

[Prolescum]

Which rocks arses. I love that game.

[Aurora]

After reading SO MANY theory posts that are basically the same ideas re-worded, thank you so much for posting this. There are a lot of new ideas to think about here...maybe too complex compared to what will actually be revealed.

Well done.

/and GANON = WIN

[thenimf]

Cheers Aurora :)

I think that it's on the right track, but I'm no doubt reading into the concept far too much.

[Barihawk]

You know, I could buy into the theory that Baltar is resurrected. We've seen how fragile Cylons are and there's no way that Six could have really shielded him from that blast. And we see him later at the raptor with no cuts or dust on his clothing. One could also wonder if Six was even standing there with him at all.

I'm personally just going to enjoy the next two weeks without too much fanwanking, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Prolescum]

And we see him later at the raptor with no cuts or dust on his clothing.
I beg to differ. He did, in fact, have cuts on his face.

[Howard Nowlan]

"So as the war between centurions and man hit a certain point, I think that their mass computing power creates GANON. I haven't really decided in my head whether GANON is an active conciousness that is pulled towards cylon tech (so GANON travelled from Earth to the colonies) or if it is always born in every cycle. Could be a bit of both".

Sounds a great deal like the ideas being played with in the Sarah Connor Chronicles - Skynet is clearly seeking to 'evolve' into a consciousness which assimilates certain aspects/traits of humanity in order to either overcome them or, possibly, to 'improve' upon them and thereby make them redundant (the whole Cromarty/John Henry development from the Turk, and the changes to Cameron are examples of this). I think one key issue is the nature and identity of the Lords of Kobol. They appear to be related to 'the gods', so are they mere programming, legend or the actual (living) masters of the original Centurions?

Interesting point about the death of Baltar - I'd been musing on that one for a while.

[Barihawk]

I beg to differ. He did, in fact, have cuts on his face.

I stand corrected in that regard, then. Been four years and this is the fanwank forum after all.

[Prolescum]

No worries, chum. :thumbsup:

[number13]

Nice theory!

It works, and most importantly its a possible ending i hadnt considered, that i LIKE. I think it needs some work of course, and i dont think ill read about it any further if you guys all extrapolate it out... because i think you may be onto something, and i want to be guessing still :lol:

[Starstruck]

Nice theory!

It works, and most importantly its a possible ending i hadnt considered, that i LIKE. I think it needs some work of course, and i dont think ill read about it any further if you guys all extrapolate it out... because i think you may be onto something, and i want to be guessing still :lol:

It's also good because it could be resolved in two more episodes without a constant spew of explanatory dialogue. It's getting harder to imagine any other theory playing out without said spewing. :thumbsup:

[number13]

It's also good because it could be resolved in two more episodes without a constant spew of explanatory dialogue. It's getting harder to imagine any other theory playing out without said spewing. :thumbsup:

Exactly... Reading some of the other theories, the thing that enters my mind about all the complex theological conclusions to the show.... Is that that hasnt been the center of the show... and in order to do it, the show would have to turn 180, and spend the last 4 hours drenching us with facts... And it seems there is far far too much action set to take place to allow for long-winded explinations of totally unexplored concepts.

[crood]

I don't think the fact that Kara took months to return, while Baltar would have returned within hours is relevant. It comes down to when GANNON wanted them to return (if indeed Baltar was killed). Even though he had cuts, his injuries were still far less than one would expect. Between the fact that Caprica would have been little to no shielding from the initial blast, there's still all the flying debris and the destruction of his house to take into account.

It surely could have been blind luck. He could have been saved/protected by GANNON. He could have died and gotten a new body, like Kara.

[thenimf]

Just thought I'd deposit a few concepts from posts in other threads -

1. The F5 did not survive Earth on their own ship. GANON brought the ship there but because space travel had pretty much been forgotten by the cylons of Earth, they had no way to get up there... so GANON opted to resurrect them onto the ship by teaching them how to upload their minds.

All the F5 did then was make sure that "the preparations are in place" for when they died. This could have been something as simple as inserting chips into their brains or building a massive transmission coil to download their brains and upload it to the ship. This scenario would allow the show to take "power" away from the F5 as well, because it means that they're even less in control of what's happening because they didn't even have their own ship ready.

2. GANON is the AI equivalent of a hybrid for the ship that rescued the F5.

To project this concept further here are a few theories based on above
1. In contrast with genetic memory, there is a "memory of genetics" in humans and a body can be rebuilt based on the mind upload
2. GANON can therefore build bodies that it's never encountered before
3. GANON brought back Kara with tattoo's this way, because it was able to build upon the model in her mind (which is a collection of subconscious memories as well as actual ones)
4. GANON was not destroyed during the attack on Earth which means that it was either well hidden (dark side of the moon or something) or it can resurrect and transmit "head" characters over a fair enough distance. I'm going to go with the latter because it means that GANON doesn't have to be stalking the fleet to transmit head characters.
5. GANON was in orbit of Earth when Kara died, resurrected her and placed her in a viper.
6. GANON knocked out Kara after that experience and flew back towards the fleet... remember that GANON can only travel at sub-luminal speeds so it took months to get back to them to deposit Kara there

[Vesihiisi]

I wonder if anything essential would change in the theory, were one to replace the letter combination "GANON" with a slightly longer letter combination, such as "Lords of Kobol, the first collection of AI entities".

[bradtem]

I'm not thrilled with this theory, but there is one aspect it has that is quite important.

I'm at a loss to explain just how this string puller, Gannon as you call it, will manifest itself at the end of the show.

It may never manifest directly, and only speak through Head Six and its other mouthpieces. This is the most likely situation right now.

It would be a big cheat if it manifests as a brand new character, like somebody played by Dirk Benedict. This would be a total Deus ex Machina, quite literally.

The other choice is to manifest through a character we already know. Now I think Head Six is that character, but you present an alternative. It's not easy to fit most of the others into this role. Many of the prime suspects for final Cylon, like Baltar or Romo, might qualify for this, but in the case of Baltar, he clearly is not aware of being some other being if he is one. It has to be somebody whose head we have not seen inside. We've seen inside Lee's, but only barely. It could be Starbuck, I suppose, but I would not like it.

[thenimf]

bradtem

See - the main thing I don't like about existing characters being responsible at this stage is that we haven't seen anyone with the resources to pull off things like
- resurrecting Kara, hauling her to Earth and back and then dropping her off in a fancy new viper back at the fleet's location (note that the fleet had moved since she died, so the third party must be able to track them too)
- projecting head people. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that visions like the Opera House are tied to however Head people are appearing.

If the third party manifests as any existing character that's a big cheat too because it completely destroys the character building. Are you saying, for example, that Baltar might awaken to realize that he is the one true cylon god or something of that nature? I think that any use of the "human" type characters would suck because it would
- negate the value of their character building in the show, or
- require a whoopass retcon if they were aware of their role in the scheme of things

A concept like GANON (where centurions are going to be the "final cylon"), to me, makes the most sense because
- they have all the resources under Cavil's and the rebel's command at their disposal
- we know very little about them despite them always starting the cycle of violence... you'd think the group that started this all (and always starts this all) should play a bigger part then being pets to the humanoids
- we don't know the cylons exact motivation for starting wars (they rebelled... why?)
- GANON is technological, but my theory leaves room for it's behaviour to be mystical... so using GANON won't detract from the show's core sci-fi and naturalistic aspects. Meanwhile going with things like ascended beings, gods, angels, leprechauns, etc. will detract from that.

[Vesihiisi]

If the third party manifests as any existing character that's a big cheat too because it completely destroys the character building.There are always the hybrids, and now perhaps even Sam. They are already manifestations of the data stream, and would present a simple case of "the butler did it".

[JimmyB]

thenimf, my brain hurts trying to get my head around this, it will probably take another few re-reads for its implications to set in.

If BSG were a book I could see this being played out as a very satisying reveal at the end, however, whether they would be able to convey this on-screen is another matter.

I only hope the "real" answer is as well thought out as yours. Bravo.

[Silversun]

I wonder if anything essential would change in the theory, were one to replace the letter combination "GANON" with a slightly longer letter combination, such as "Lords of Kobol, the first collection of AI entities".

Just what I was thinking. I have have been playing around with a similar idea for a while now, but with a more religious flavour. Starbucks "special destiny" combined with her apparent resurrection gave me the idea that she might be an avatar for one of the Lords Of Kobol, I picked Aurora because of the episode where she gives Adama the figurehead for his ship.

If Baltar did indeed resurrect, he could be the incarnation of The One True God and Inner Sixes claims that she is an angel could be more than just inner flirting.

I didn't much like this idea because of the over religious/miraculous/magical element to it. After reading this theory I think we have both come up with the same theory but in a slightly different way ie. GANON = Lords of Kobol.
which kind of removes the magic element and replaces it with technology
(maybe magical technology :p)

I don't think that this will be explained directly though since the next episode is the last and it would be very convoluted(much like this post)

btw this is my first post. I'm glad to have a place where i can discuss this with people other than my brother

[thenimf]

silversun

I like your theory. I'm not too sure about the Lord of Kobol idea though, a lot of people seem to be going with similiar ideas but I don't feel that the show has given us any evidence to lead us to believe that the actual LoK are present in any form in the world at the moment.

I actually think that the "truth" will be skimmed over in DayBreak part II and that the real explanation will be given to us in "The Plan".. "The Plan" is a movie about the attacks on the colonies from the cylons perspective.

See, if GANON does pan out, and the cylon centurions are the key, The Plan would be a great opportunity to retcon all the religious elements of the show into a technological explanation and give really good details of the actual plan that GANON had. Also, a great place to set-up the way that the series Caprica is going to tie into the BSG storyline we're aware of.

P.S> I find that all technology is magical ;)

[Silversun]

A way of retconning the religious stuff is really what I was looking for, thats why I liked this idea so much. I don't think its to much of a stretch to say that GANON and The One True God are one and the same. Just because the characters believe they are Gods doesn't really mean thats what they are.

I think the really important point is Kara's resurrection. Since I think she definately is Daniels daughter, the cylon blood in her could give her a connection to GANON/TOTG. The only problem is where did her body and the new viper come from, as well as her tattoos being intact because I don't think there should be this all powerfull being in control of everything

[thenimf]

A way of retconning the religious stuff is really what I was looking for, thats why I liked this idea so much. I don't think its to much of a stretch to say that GANON and The One True God are one and the same. Just because the characters believe they are Gods doesn't really mean thats what they are.

I think the really important point is Kara's resurrection. Since I think she definately is Daniels daughter, the cylon blood in her could give her a connection to GANON/TOTG. The only problem is where did her body and the new viper come from, as well as her tattoos being intact because I don't think there should be this all powerfull being in control of everything


That's why I think that the centurions are GANON :)

The centurions (if they are truly in control) would have the resources to resurrect Kara, take her to Earth and even drop her off back at the fleet.

[Silversun]

Do you not think that the Hybrids would be more likely given there apparent connection to God/GANON/Harry Potter, whatever is out there. Since cylon technology dates back to before the exodus from Kobol its very possible that the Lords Of Kobol are early cylons. Because these cylons were machines and capable of living forever this could eventually lead to people believing they were Gods. And here we have the beginning of GANON