A question only for those who have seen 'The Oath'

[bazzyb]

I rarely get so caught up in an episode but purely for fun, if you were on the Galactica and had the chance would you shoot Gaeta in the head

**sorry for the mispelling in the thread title. I don't think I can edit it though. Sorry**

[Zlaticko]

My allegiance is to a man, not a government. The Admiral is to whom I am loyal.

[Alfagrem]

My allegiance is with the fleet and their democratically elected officials i.e the colonial way of life.

Cain, Adama and Tigh have all tried to overide the protocols and the government from which they actually draw their rank and powers from and as a result innocent civilians have died!

So I stand with Gaeta.

[Osprey]

my allegiance is with the rule of law, hence those who so egregiously deviate from that, well, there's consequences ...

[st.barthgirl]

Can you spell " Shockandawe" ?

[Zlaticko]

Shock, and awe. My fealty is not to the abstract.

[st.barthgirl]

Righto, sir.
i feel the fleet in its entirety is suffering from shockNawe. it's their post 9/11. Felix is guilty, but he's a cog in a larger machine- greased by shocknawe. if i may borrow from myself (in another post):

Gaeta is attracted to power.
He wasn't just accidentally assigned to be be right hand man to two of the most powerful figures in the universe. Everyone is complicit in their own path, their own Rise.

He undermined Baltar's presidency due to his belief system. It doesn't matter that he had morality on his side- if one is able to betray a boss in Any situation, then one has the potential to betray a boss in Every situation.

Adama should have clued into this. I think whistle blowers in corporate america do a lot of good for the average consumer. But, would i, as an employer, hire a known whistle blower? no. it's too likely that their own agenda will result in subordination.

Gaeta craves power, and the expression and imposition of his own ideals. he has the stuff of a good leader- except that he has proved to be a tenuous follower.

If the War had not broken out, gaeta would have likely received commendation and promotion by now. in it's absence, gaeta is seizing it by any means he can- his beliefs are simply a means to an end. He may not be aware of it, but it is valid. Unfortunately, others in the fleet adhere to the same beliefs, and perceive gaeta to be a leader.

One cannot ignore the implications of ' Shock and Awe' as well. the revelation that their most trusted compatriots were cylons undermined the fleets entire belief system, and left them vulnerable. Add to this that their salvation: earth- was uninhabitable, and devoid of the Humanity they sought for so long- well, dee's suicide says it all. Hopelessness does crazy things to people. Group dynamics in trying times have shown us over and over again that people will commit acts during the aftermath of trauma that they normally wouldn't consider, if their minds were clear and unburdened.

Both Roslin and Adama, shocked , have left a power vacuum.
the fleet, shocked into submission, are following the Voice they feel most closely resembles the guidance they crave. Hot heads are prevailing.

An experienced Strategist could have predicted the possibility of a mutiny. Trust, under these circumstances, can Rightly be suspended- that is a limit on trust.

Person to person, tho, are there limits to trust? no. as adama states, that's what trust is.

War machines and group Psychodynamics are another story.


with regards to shooting gaeta, well, i'd rather capture and rehabilitate him. He's not a lost cause. He has valuable skills. With the amount of shockNawe the fleet has been exposed to, an uprising, mutiny, revolution, war, or chaos of some sort was inevitable.

[BSGfan-atic]

bazzyb, welcome back, stranger! Where have you been for most of the long, dark, cold hiatus? Good to see you posting again!

I for one, if I were in the fleet, would not be too impressed by the civilian leadership, and I would have joined the military by now. I would be a fanatical supporter of Admiral Adama, and I would gladly shoot Gaeta in the head. But only after shooting lots of other bits off, slowly.

What was that line from Rob Roy, something like "Robbers hang, captains first." Death to Gaeta and Zarick!

[Mishakal]

I wouldn't shoot Gaeta in the head, I would shoot out his other leg and both his arms and then leave him alive as an example of what happens to traitors.

If you haven't guessed by now I am totally in Adama's camp!

[genji2000]

bazzyb, welcome back, stranger! Where have you been for most of the long, dark, cold hiatus? Good to see you posting again!

Bazzy was here throughout the hiatus. He never failed to give us the rewatch threads.

I wouldn't shoot Gaeta in the head, I would shoot out his other leg and both his arms and then leave him alive as an example of what happens to traitors.

Cut his hands off? Cut all the bits off. Send them back on the hour, every hour. Show Zarek we're not to be trifled with.

[Zlaticko]

Finger nubs. Like his leg.

[Capedia]

Find a vampire to bite him so he's immortal. Then flush him out the airlock and let him float through space until the end of time.


Sorry, I've been reading too many comics. Or maybe ST:TNG.

[Mishakal]

Find a vampire to bite him so he's immortal. Then flush him out the airlock and let him float through space until the end of time.


Sorry, I've been reading too many comics. Or maybe ST:TNG.

Sounds more like you've seen Twilight one too many times. :D

[Batman316]

I'd shoot him just to see his blood splatter all over a bulkhead. Then toss his body out the Leoben Conroy Memorial Exit just for shits and kicks

[Zlaticko]

Leoben Conroy Memorial Exit

You, sir, are a genius.

[st.barthgirl]

You guys - o, wait, right, your GUYS. never mind....

[bazzyb]

bazzyb, welcome back, stranger! Where have you been for most of the long, dark, cold hiatus? Good to see you posting again!!

Bazzy was here throughout the hiatus. He never failed to give us the rewatch threads.
:)

I stayed out of spoiler zones so maybe that's how I seemed absent but like Genji said, I was in the rewatch threads week to week


Cut his hands off? Cut all the bits off. Send them back on the hour, every hour. Show Zarek we're not to be trifled with.

Toughest answer so far (toughest on Gaeta that is)

[bazzyb]

Last edited by genji2000 (http://www.battlestarforum.com/posthistory.php?p=45364); February 4th, 2009 at 10:28 PM.. Reason: Done. Click 'go advanced'.

Thanks I'll remember that

[OldManRivers]

If I was a member of the Colonial Fleet with the level of political idealism I carry in the present world, I would be against the Status-quo establishment. If I was a member of the military, that could be a different story.

The Adama-Roslin administration have made serious errors. The choices they made, without the publics consent destroys the values that are supposed to be the hallmarks of humanity. Swept away in the blink of an eye. Roslin has consummated more and more control as she leaves this world, all in a bitter lust for what? Purpose? Reason to exist? In spite of Tom Zarek or Guias Baltar to be the less of two evils?

Strong leadership that puts the people first is needed. Participatory democracy, with participatory governance models. The amount of power circulated in the executive government is frightening, and the fact that the high ranking military officer will supersede everything because he believes he should make that decision, based solely on his own accord, is egregious. It destroys every facet of our supposed society that holds all are equal, with equal rights, and that we governance ourselves.

Benevolent dictators or not, it's real lives at stake. It's the survival of the fleet. Perhaps, they have survived this long for some divine reason, or because of Roslin's quasi-religious arrogance to be a fake "dying leader". It's all a crock of fledgercarb.

I don't know if Gaeta or Tom Zarek is the right leader for any society, political or militarily. I do believe if I were a member of the Colonial Fleet, I would feel similar sentiment as them.


As for the Cylons, I am unsure. As a member of the Colonial Fleet, I would harbor a great amount of distrust and ill feelings toward the race of machines that has repeated tried to wipe out of existence. We are supposed to just forget all of this? That billions of people died because of them? That they instated occupation and rounded up citizens for senseless executions? How could they be anything our enemy.


As a viewer, I think the Cylons are seeking redemption and habour no ill will towards the fleet. I mean, the Rebel Cylons. They are at a loss, with no where to go, too. They are not a threat to the Colonial Fleet, and can serious help them. The decision to upgrade the FTL drives for the ships is a military decision that needs to happen to help protect the fleet from the other 3 Cylons who still want to wipe us out of existence.




Godsdamnnit! This is all so damn complicated, and I love it. :)

[Stairway]

I wouldn't shoot him, but I'd force him to go to the brig and eat algae for a long time. Even if there was other food available.

[stavrosg]

I wouldn't shoot him, but I'd force him to go to the brig and eat algae for a long time. Even if there was other food available.
Since there isn't any other food available anyway, what would you gain?

[st.barthgirl]

The fleet- those who do not support Adama - is made up of a bunch of fickle, Frakkin' ingrates who deserve nothing from Adama. But, Adama's rescued and protected them anyway. He's NOT good at politics, so, with Roslin's little breakdown, there's no one to soften the blow or frame military decisions in a way the public can understand- or even anyone to pretend to be Ombudsman for the administration and act like they care about the concerns of the Great Unwashed.

If people felt like they were being heard, their concerns weighed, they wouldn't have mutinied.
It's the dictatorial nature of Adama's decision that gets them into a lather. The fleet could have been spoon fed a justification for the cylon FTL drives gently, and acquiesced.

No one bothered to do that. Adama just doesn't have it in him, and hates that he has to play that Game. He won't.

The Frakkin' ingrate members of the rag tag fugitive fleet who don't want Adama's protection and Largesse and to benefit from his military wisdom should just frakkin' form their own alliance, and see where it gets them: DEAD.

Everyone Alive owes their lives to Adama- but people are frakkin' selfish, pitiful, stupid, and prurient- not to mention incapable of anything resembling loyalty or gratitude, So die, motherfrakkers-DIE!

But, once again, Adama cares about them as if they were His children, even the Frakkers- the mutineers, and wants to save everybody, at his own peril.
He's a good man.
History, in the final analysis, will prove these mutineers to be misguided and Adama to be the kind of protective, forgiving Father we wished we'd had growing up. A leader, and a human - a flawed one - But a GREAT LEADER.

He (and his aegis) is just in such a superior league than the Zarekian Cry Babies, that they're blind by comparison.

But, i forgive everyone. ShockNawe does crazy things to people. They're just like little children kicking up a fuss because they don't like to eat what's good for them. They deserve Compassion. Yes, Adama's a bigger man than most, and he Showed me the Way.

Group Hug.

[Osprey]

heh -- we have small memberships in the cult of sharon, cult of gaius, cult of lee, and cult of kara -- think we now have our first member fo the cult of bill ...
:-)
:-)

[st.barthgirl]

i don't know that i'm so much a Biller as an adamant (get it? ADAMAnt) detractor of ingratitude.

[Hofner1962]

I wouldn't shoot Gaeta in the head, I would shoot out his other leg and both his arms and then leave him alive as an example of what happens to traitors.


Gaeta: First things first, to the death.
Adama: No. To the pain.
Gaeta: I don't think I'm quite familiar with that phrase.
Adama: I'll explain and I'll use small words so that you'll be sure to understand, you warthog faced buffoon.
Gaeta: That may be the first time in my life a man has dared insult me.
Adama: It won't be the last. To the pain means the first thing you will lose will be your feet below the ankles. Then your hands at the wrists. Next your nose.
Gaeta: And then my tongue I suppose, I killed you too quickly the last time. A mistake I don't mean to duplicate tonight.
Adama: I wasn't finished. The next thing you will lose will be your left eye followed by your right.
Gaeta: And then my ears, I understand let's get on with it.
Adama: WRONG. Your ears you keep and I'll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, "Dear God! What is that thing," will echo in your perfect ears. That is what to the pain means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever.
Gaeta: I think your bluffing.
Adama: It's possible, Pig, I might be bluffing. It's conceivable, you miserable, vomitous mass, that I'm only lying here because I lack the strength to stand. But, then again... perhaps I have the strength after all.

[Osprey]

i could see that one coming as SOON as they mentioned more than one amputation for felix ...

/sigh ...

[Capedia]

He's NOT good at politics, so, with Roslin's little breakdown, there's no one to soften the blow or frame military decisions in a way the public can understand- or even anyone to pretend to be Ombudsman for the administration and act like they care about the concerns of the Great Unwashed.
Lee should have been able to fill that role, but he doesn’t have Roslin's bullheadedness, or Adama's confidence as much as Roslin, so when Adama pretty much disregarded Lee, Lee just withered instead of getting in his father's face to keep him from frakking up.

[st.barthgirl]

I Agree. Coulda' been Adamaville right on down the line.
But, he Did Not step up. (wonder why? this is unlike him. Afraid of the quorum? disagree with dad? Bad Tummy ? Unsure about his shoes?)

So, here we are again...

[Capedia]

Actually, "to the pain" could be even nastier than described in The Princess Bride, especially with modern medical technology. Remove all four limbs, eyes, ears, and tongue. Use a feeding tube to keep him alive. He'd be completely cut off from the outside world, just floating in emptiness for decades until he dies. Even The Miracle Worker couldn't find a way to get through to that. (I'm not sure quite how long his mind would remain conscious under such conditions — for the rest of his life, or would the mind shut down at some point?) You could burn his skin to make it even more painful. (I wondered in my previous parentheses about whether the lack of stimulation might cause the conscious mind to shut down at some point. If so, perhaps the pain, by providing a stimulus to the brain, would keep him conscious longer.)

Gods, I can't believe I'm thinking of things like this. What kind of psycho am I?

[st.barthgirl]

Actually, "to the pain" could be a lot nastier than described in The Princess Bride, especially with modern medical technology. Remove all four limbs, eyes, ears, and tongue. Use a feeding tube to keep him alive. He'd be completely cut off from the outside world, just floating in emptiness for decades. Even The Miracle Worker couldn't find a way to get through to that. You could burn his skin to make it even more painful.

Gods, I can't believe I'm thinking of things like this. What kind of psycho am I?

UM, YES. Disturbingly Psychotic. Torture any Cats Lately?

I'm going to have nightmares, now. Like i never forgot about the Live dead person in 7.

Some things, you just can't un-remember.

A warning label, perhaps, attached? or treat as a spoiler?

But, admitting you have a problem is the first step in overcoming it.
I'm still not letting my nephew read your posts til I check 'em first.

[Capedia]

UM, YES. Disturbingly Psychotic. Torture any Cats Lately?
Augh! Don't talk about torturing cats! I love my cats!

[st.barthgirl]

I luff yer kits, too. i reelly reeelyb LO LOVER LOVVVVVEEEE them. tHiiiirrr sooooo sweeeeet.

O. wait, sorry.

thought i was still in Joe's. :)

[Capedia]

Here's a wonderful short story for your nephews. I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=7&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdata.antonindanek.cz%2FHarlan%252 0Ellison-I%2520hav%2520no%2520Mouth%2520and%2520I%2520must% 2520scream.pdf&ei=L16LSa6_EZicNdvu5NoH&usg=AFQjCNFSlzDes2_4hWxVkUMxdVeyecK6Yw&sig2=HhSQmW2-HLZcg_G2bMrsjw) by Harlan Ellison. Fun for kids of all ages!

OK, not really. It's another nightmare inducer.

[jerrywickey]

'pends on my goal. If over the last four years I had developed the goal of living out the rest of my life on a habitable planet, I would hide in a corner and see which side wins, then be of service to that side.

But if I had developed the attitude that life as we know it is over and I now must live or die the man and frankly with out a any prospects of a habitable planet and with Cavil still out there, dieing is just as likely as living. In this case, I would have already decided on the old man as the best bet, and blown Geata's curly head of hair away at my first chance, in the hope that my effort might give Adama the chance to retake the ship.

All the while knowing that it will take a miricle to survive even if Adama does retake the ship. With out a miricle, neither side has a very good chance of survival.

With out Cylon tech the chances are even slimmer, but if I had adopted the first attitude, then my own survival would be more important to me than that of the fleet.

Jerry

[Steelviper]

It's silly, but I get a little riled up whenever Gaeta's image ends up at the top of the page on the wiki (through random rotation). The episode really effectively took him from "meh" to "shoot him in the head" in my book.

[Capedia]

It's silly, but I get a little riled up whenever Gaeta's image ends up at the top of the page on the wiki (through random rotation). The episode really effectively took him from "meh" to "shoot him in the head" in my book.
Which browser do you use? There may be a way to block that image.

[Steelviper]

Which browser do you use? There may be a way to block that image.

Lol! You're right. FF's adblock could take that sucker right out. However I've been using Chrome mostly, so I'm still waiting on an adblock extension to be developed. That, and I made that image, so it's kind of silly for me to block it. It's a good reminder anyway (a negative reminder), and it's just a refresh away from being something else.

[Prolescum]

Is Chrome any good? I've heard nothing but bad from the two who've discussed it with me, although they are particular...

Oh, and I'd shoot Gaeta twice. Not because of the mutiny, I agree with him in principle (although his principles are in question). Adama is still right about the Cylon's FTLs.

[Ausir]

my allegiance is with the rule of law, hence those who so egregiously deviate from that, well, there's consequences ...

As in, those who disregard the democratic will of the people and their representatives in the Quorum in order to forge an alliance with the enemies of humanity? Yes, there's definitely consequences.

[thevarrior]

Is Chrome any good? I've heard nothing but bad from the two who've discussed it with me, although they are particular...

Oh, and I'd shoot Gaeta twice. Not because of the mutiny, I agree with him in principle (although his principles are in question). Adama is still right about the Cylon's FTLs.

Chrome is alright, I still prefer firefox highly though.

I'd shoot Gaeta in the face just for allying with a terrorist. Piece of scum.

[Prolescum]

As in, those who disregard the democratic will of the people and their representatives in the Quorum in order to forge an alliance with the enemies of humanity? Yes, there's definitely consequences.
Since when have political representatives actually followed the will of the people? I've yet to see a truly democratic nation on this (once) fine Earth.
This is also true of the Colonials. Tom Zarek is no democrat; he would have done many of the same things as Roslin. Not for the same reasons, however. She wanted what was best for everyone, Zarek wants as much as he can have, and then some.

[Ausir]

Since when have political representatives actually followed the will of the people? I've yet to see a truly democratic nation on this (once) fine Earth.
This is also true of the Colonials. Tom Zarek is no democrat; he would have done many of the same things as Roslin. Not for the same reasons, however. She wanted what was best for everyone, Zarek wants as much as he can have, and then some.

I'm not saying he is. I'm just saying that Roslin and Adama aren't exactly following the rule of law either.

[Prolescum]

True, sorry.

[st.barthgirl]

The closest we, as a people, get to true democracy are communities like black bear (commune cum ranch) in 60's Californ- eye-aay, Or kibbutzim. We can do it on a small scale with people of like mind. As soon as we combine people with vastly different backgrounds and ideals into a community large enough to not know your neighbor's name, Democracy goes out the window. Wish it didn't .

It's amazing the colonists have lasted this long. The glue that holds them together? only that they know their only real chance of staying alive is Adama; Galactica.

When you stop living, really- and are concerned about just staying alive, when it's a real possibility that you won't live- well, people regress. Become animalistic. Utilize the amygdala, do not engage in so much higher reasoning. Democracy depends on gentility, culture, and higher reasoning.

[Prolescum]

Couldn't agree more.

[Hofner1962]

I also agree. This goes all the way back to the mini where Adama lied about Earth because it was not enough just to live. I think he very much anticipated the depression etc if there was not a goal in front of them.

[Pnutmaster]

As soon as we combine people with vastly different backgrounds and ideals into a community large enough to not know your neighbor's name, Democracy goes out the window. Wish it didn't .


Well supported in sociology and history. Agree 100%. "Paradise" is lost when one's population becomes so large (> 500 persons, according to one theory) that cousins start killing one another over petty jealousies.

[cylon_democrat]

I did watch this episode thanks to some charitable (pirating perhaps) youtubers:blush:.

Rather than amputating Gaeta into bits, why not resort to cannibalism? It is a short step to that recourse when things get desperate - confronted with dwindling options of nil or nothing, population decline, a loss of faith in divine intervention and leaders, and deforestation -

Oops. Been reading Jared Diamond's Collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_(book)) too closely:D.

[Capedia]

Rather than amputating Gaeta into bits, why not resort to cannibalism?
Eat the amputated limbs and you get the best of both worlds. ;)

(Note to RDM: Please don’t read my posts for story ideas.)

[stavrosg]

'pends on my goal. If over the last four years I had developed the goal of living out the rest of my life on a habitable planet, I would hide in a corner and see which side wins, then be of service to that side.

But if I had developed the attitude that life as we know it is over and I now must live or die the man and frankly with out a any prospects of a habitable planet and with Cavil still out there, dieing is just as likely as living. In this case, I would have already decided on the old man as the best bet, and blown Geata's curly head of hair away at my first chance, in the hope that my effort might give Adama the chance to retake the ship.
This rationale fits better the mutineers, rather than Adama's following.
It's like: OK, four years with this dude, and nothing. Let's try something else. Add the earth dissapointment and the cylon hatred in the mix and you'll see what drove the mutiny.

All the while knowing that it will take a miricle to survive even if Adama does retake the ship. With out a miricle, neither side has a very good chance of survival.

With out Cylon tech the chances are even slimmer, but if I had adopted the first attitude, then my own survival would be more important to me than that of the fleet.

Jerry
Who says that the cylons won't plant backdoors all over the place to use them if they need? The average colonial would be too suspicious of the cylons to suddently have some random piece of their tech shoved down his throat. Especially if that affects one of the most vital factor of survival - their means of travel.

[Steelviper]

Is Chrome any good? I've heard nothing but bad from the two who've discussed it with me, although they are particular...

It loads pages quickly, and although I was a big fan of FF initially, I'm concerned that it's becoming a bit bloated itself. I like the new tab mechanism in Chrome, the top 9 most visited site grid on the new tab startup, and how the bookmarks bar stays out of the way except for on the new tabs screen. Also, it uses the Webkit rendering engine, which SUPPOSEDLY (but highly doubtful) MS has considered using in IE. If MS went over to webkit, and Firefox followed suit, then we might have a shot at a more uniform web experience instead of the situation we have today. I like the diversity of having different browsers available, but there should be SOME standards. (That being said, they couldn't even settle on a power standard for the international space station, and have to have adapters between each module from different countries, so I don't really hold out much hope for the web.)

[st.barthgirl]

Eat the amputated limbs and you get the best of both worlds. ;)

(Note to RDM: Please don’t read my posts for story ideas.)


The Babies. You're supposed to eat the babies .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

[cylon_democrat]

The Babies. You're supposed to eat the babies .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal



Gaeta has babies?

[thevarrior]

Gaeta has babies?

Hybrid Gaeta babies. Oh God.

[Jason525]

I rarely get so caught up in an episode but purely for fun, if you were on the Galactica and had the chance would you shoot Gaeta in the head

**sorry for the mispelling in the thread title. I don't think I can edit it though. Sorry**
Yes. I'd shoot Geta.

He's a scumbag.