Lack of Ethics in BSG

[BlackTigh]

Hi I'm new to this forum. I did a search for a BSG forum because I wanted to read the thoughts of others on certain issues re. the new series.

An issue which seems to come up regularly on this show is ethics. It seems to be that the concept of a Battlestar is modelled to some degree on that of an aircraft carrier, including a definite military environment. But no naval crew worth its salt would put up with the behaviour exhibited by many of the significant members of the BSG crew.

Treason. Mutiny. Sedition. Giving comfort to the enemy during time of war. A few military-related "ethical crimes" noted so far, in no particular order:

Helo sabotaged the war effort by killing the infected cylons.
The Chief turned against his commander by siding with the "unionists".
Dee and the others actively plotted against their commander when Tigh filled in for Adama.
Cally executed a cylon prisoner out of her own personal need for vengeance.
Apollo held a gun to the head of his own XO when they were sent to relieve the President.All done in the name of democacy or human rights or merely with the best of intentions. The people who produce this show can't seem to decide between portraying a "realistic" sci-fi military operation and inserting their own fanciful ideas of what is just and right into such an existence.

The only mitigating factor in all the events mentioned above is the fact the humans are on the verge of extinction. In any other war situation, these acts would call for imprisonment or execution (as Adama threatened in the unionism episode).

Helo should have been executed for what he did.

The chief should've been locked up then busted to the bottom rung. Again. (It's not the first time he has demonstrated the wrong qualities for his leadership position.)

Dee and the others should've been locked up and the key thrown away. Or worse.

Cally gets a slap on the wrist and restored to normal rank and duty.

And Apollo... what he did is unforgivable.


Adama is soft. He's running a family not a warship. This is fine if the producer wants to portray a family but don't try to paint it as a fine military operation; it's a slap in the face to the real pros whose profession this show pretends to emulate.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

For the most part, you're right. In a normal military environment, where you actually have a civilization left, all the people in question would have faced a court martial and imprisonment. Or even execution.

And Adama is soft, to an extent. In "Unfinished Business", he admits this after the boxing match with Tyrol.

Then again, you need to consider that Galactica isn't the Enterprise in so far as to say that she's not the finest ship in the fleet. Actually, that's the point, siince if you've read the earlier interviews, this is deliberate. And unfortunately, not all military units are going to act in the exact same way with the exact same regard for military law, regardless of how much training you drill into them.

But the question is how do you maintain military discipline when you only have over 40,000 people left? Particularly if such people perform such pivotal services to the defense of the Fleet.

Also, it's not like you can transfer replacements from one ship to another. Sure, you had Pegasus, but the only direct analogue to Tyrol there was available was in the form of Peter Laird, a civilian conscript. Then you had a CAG, who was basically semi-competent, so no one could really replace Lee in that regard.

Then you have the fact that the military attempted a coup de tat against the civilian authority. By all rights, William Adama should be charged with treason and shot for that alone.

So is it ethical for the military to stage a coup against the civilian authority?

[Skyhawk]

All of that is true, and I must say that is the whole magic of the series.
They are not holy, not perfect, not young, beautifull and famous (well, except for dr. Baltar's imagined self-fame). All have faults, secrets too dark to show.
They are the last of their kind, scraping a living on the edge of a knife...or razor, if you will ;)
These 'lacks of ethics' are just the things people get pushed to when having their backs to the wall.

That is exactly the thing that got me chained to the screen.
I barely ever sticked to any series. SG-1 was "good", Babylon-5 was excellent for it's time (that's actually the only series I watched from start to end) but after BSG nothing is the same any more. I never thought that a series could have such thrilling moments and that someone had the courage to give "a product that has to sell" such a dark and controversial feel. As contovercy is all we're dealing with here.

Season one finale made my jaw drop...
The appearance of Pegasus and the ensuing standoff made my blood run cold...
The New Caprica rescue made my heart stop...
I love it.

[Serenity]

It's not really a lack of ethics as such. They're well aware of this themselves.
See Lee Adama's speech in "Crossroads, Part II". Normally, people would get locked up for a long time. But when you have merely 40,000 people left you need everyone you can get. Even the screwups. They know it's not normal, but have no choice.

"I'm the coward. I'm the traitor. I'm forgiven. I'd say we are very forgiving of mistakes. We make our own laws now; our own justice. And we've been pretty creative in finding ways to let people off the hook for everything from theft to murder. And we've had to be, because...because we're not a civilization anymore. We are a gang, and we are on the run, and we have to fight to survive. We have to break rules. We have to bend laws. We have to improvise."

So the most you get is token gestures or the punishment of replaceable people. Cally was locked up for 30 days mostly out of symbolism. Socinus took the fall for Tyrol, because he's just a deckhand and not a senior NCO. They can't just get rid of skilled and valuable people even if they wanted to.
There are other instances where characters mention how their arrangements would never under normal circumstances.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Of course, not to diverge too much from this conversation, this doesn't excuse Adama's lackadaisical command before the Fall. He did permit the Boomer and Tyrol relationship to occur under his command, in addition to Tigh's obvious inebriation, and the whole thing with Starbuck and Tigh to nearly spiral out of control.

So is Adama the best commander? Probably not. But then again he knows that.

[BlackTigh]

Allowing the Cylons to escape annihilation was unforgivable of Helo. Who was he to make the decision regarding morals when the fate on humankind was at stake?

This is what I hate about these sort of producers. It's their moral scruples and idealism which is given voice in the show, not those of the real warrior class.

I can't help but feel that in the real deal a) Helo woud never have done what he did in the first place but if he had, then b) he'd be hung out to dry. At he very least, if not executed he'd be ostracised by the entire MIL community and relegated to some menial job.

If they can train HotDog and that drug-dealer to fly Vipers ("first flight today") then surely he could be replaced easily, as well.

We have to break rules. We have to bend laws.

Yes a good speech and apt. BUT - what Helo did put their very survival at greater risk than if the plan had been allowed to be carried out.

He should hang.

Adama has been painted as a criminally neglectful commander by allowing him (and others) to go unpunished, imho.

And Apollo??? Let's not even go there....... for now!

[Serenity]

You have some valid points, but this is straying too far into hyperbole for me

I'm out.

[JDS]

I think there are valid points on both sides here, as I was discussing in my thread about Helo.

Basically, the TRULY irreplaceable people have free reign to get away with murder, both metaphorically and literally, because you just cannot can them. There is no other deck chief. There is no other XO (Helo's not an XO). There is no other CAG (well...okay MAYBE Starbuck, but she's just not an administrator).

But what of the people who are extremely valuable, but not QUITE irreplaceable? I'm talking about Helo, Cpt. Kelly, Dr. Robert? To can ANY of these people seriously hurts the effort to survive,
but of them, Helo is the most expendable and committed the worst crime, yet HE got away with it while Kelly and Robert got canned. So there's a lot of inconsistency HERE which doesn't make sense. Kelly should still be in the LSO station, maybe with his clearance to the weapons locker revoked. Maybe Dr. Robert should be canned because he doesn't get the credit for being an officer...but maybe not. Maybe he should be practicing somewhere, banned from seeing Sagittarons.

[JubalHarshaw]

I don't disagree with anything you've stated, from a "real world" point of view. However, this is entertainment and in order to enjoy most entertainment you must suspend disbelief to a greater or lesser extent.

We could go on and on about events in the show that would NEVER happen in reality (sacrificing the newer, more powerful, more modern, Viper-factory-containing Battlestar being only one of many, and one that bothers me particularly).

I'm curious, what's your opinion on Cain and the way she handled her command? Would you say that executing your XO for refusing to obey orders, ruthlessly torturing an enemy combatant, and killing, enslaving, and leaving to die a number of civilians is a better representation of what the "real warrior class" would do in such a situation?

Preventing genocide is "unforgiveable"? I would have thought that Nuremberg demostrated that "I was just following orders" is not an acceptable excuse for war crimes. I don't feel that it's an insult to the "real warrior class" to show a soldier refusing to carry out illegal and immoral orders.

As far as I'm concerned, one of the biggest draws to BSG is that they are all flawed, very human characters. It's not the Federation Flagship. It's Galactica, home of misfits and a commander who was effectively punished by being forced to assume command of the Bucket.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I believe the whole thing with Helo was that the writers didn't know what to do with him after the Caprica thing, and thus made him a plot device. I'd really like to like Helo, because I think he's a good guy, but his actions in "A Measure of Salvation" and "The Woman King" caused problems. Frankly, those two episodes were attempts at being "Star Trek" like, and they suffered because of that. Plus the plots were tied up too nicely, and the fact that Tigh apologized to Helo made me want to smack Tigh upside the head. That act was something that goddamn Worf would do.

I agree that Roberts should still be practicing, though not on Sagittarons. They have few doctors in the Fleet as it is. And I agree about Kelly. He should have gotten the Cally treatment.

By the way, I never got how Helo, a Raptor ECO, became a frakkin' XO. But that's another matter entirely.

[JDS]

(sacrificing the newer, more powerful, more modern, Viper-factory-containing Battlestar being only one of many, and one that bothers me particularly).Don't even get me started on that, it's worth a thread in and of itself.

Preventing genocide is "unforgiveable"? I would have thought that Nuremberg demostrated that "I was just following orders" is not an acceptable excuse for war crimes. I don't feel that it's an insult to the "real warrior class" to show a soldier refusing to carry out illegal and immoral orders.You could look at it that way, but it's not the only point of view. The Cylons represent the impending annhilation of the entire human race, and as far as the Colonials are concerned. Furthermore, as far as the Colonials are concerned, the Cylons are unified in their attempts to destroy humanity, eliminating the normal concern for "innocent civilians". If an ENTIRE race wants to destroy you, and you're faced with the decision of destroy them for be destroyed yourself, "genocide" ceases to be immoral.

By the way, I never got how Helo, a Raptor ECO, became a frakkin' XO.He's the only one who's been through OCS and isn't actually needed anywhere.

[BlackTigh]

you just cannot can them. There is no other deck chief. There is no other XO

I suspended disbelief (because it's just a TV show) when they trained a significant number of new Viper pilots from scratch and one even finished up as the CAG. They also promoted a troop to Ensign and taught her to fly as well as, presumably, trained her to be an officer. Surely this all means they can promote a "qualified" Viper or Raptor pilot to the new CAG position and upgrade the CAG or another officer to XO (I realise it didn't work with the CEO from the Pegasus but still...).

Neville Shute's On The Beach set the precedent for maintaining military discipline through to the bitter end even in the absence of any other military structure.

In the face of the odds they are up against, maintaining their discipline is one of the few strengths they can call upon. This is real world fact and a concept that should not be abandoned if they want to put this show across as something other than popcorn viewing.

I'm curious, what's your opinion on Cain and the way she handled her command? Would you say that executing your XO for refusing to obey orders, ruthlessly torturing an enemy combatant, and killing, enslaving, and leaving to die a number of civilians is a better representation of what the "real warrior class" would do in such a situation?

I think Cain, mainly, demonstrated sound and competent millitary leadership principles. Okay she executed the XO but this, too, is not without precedent. In both world wars, personnel were executed for similar acts, omissions or failures. The point to that extreme act by Cain is, I believe, to reinforce the nasty warrior mentality that the producers resent in those who choose the profession of warrior. (See Col. Jessop's classic tirade in A Few Good Men.) Holllywood is rife with examples of how the fighting man (or woman in this case) is made to look brutish and repugnant.


Preventing genocide is "unforgiveable"? I would have thought that Nuremberg demostrated that "I was just following orders" is not an acceptable excuse for war crimes. I don't feel that it's an insult to the "real warrior class" to show a soldier refusing to carry out illegal and immoral orders.

I don't believe Helo was under any specific orders in that operation. And if he was, I don't see how these orders would've been illegal or immoral. The humans are fighting for their existence against a bunch of machines. Israel (allegedly) holds a nuke store for the same purpose of national survival against an overwhelming threat to their existence.

The humans had one chance to erase the Cylon threat forever and Helo scuppered it, mostly as a result of his affair with someone who not only is/was an enemy but is also a Cylon machine. Obviously his viewpoint is not aligned with that of the rest of the crew (or probably humanity), despite their acceptance of Athena.

I don't think wiping out the Cylons is any different to wiping out replicants in Bladerunner.

The producers are attempting to place the viewer in an unneccessary moral quandary they, themselves, would probably not support in real life. What is wrong with annihilating a bunch of malignant machines they created in the first place?

As for Cain torturing the enemy combatant, this is a Cylon we're talking about. For the humans, she is an unknown quantity. Cylons obviously cannot be trusted. Cain does not know where act ends and reality begins when dealing with her. The producers seem to wish to draw a parallel between that depiction of torture and perhaps recent events in real life BUT they have conveniently put aside the true nature of the Cylons which is devious, duplicitous and hellbent on human destruction.

Not to mention the fact that no one really knows what makes the Cylon tick. Is everything an act? Do they even feel pain? Is torture just something they respond to in a pre-programmed way in order to achieve yet more results from humans and influence their next moves?

That prisoner is just a more elaborate version of the Centurion yet the producers wish to confuse the viewer with morality.

As for Helo, he has demonstrated he cannot be trusted. In the interests of "reality" he should've been arsoled and put to work in that fuel-refinery ship.

Human flaws and frailties are one thing, yes, but there are just too many officers and crew who are getting away with too many grossly unacceptable acts in this show.

[JDS]

I don't think wiping out the Cylons is any different to wiping out replicants in Bladerunner.I don't know about that, I see them as different situations.

The Bladerunners were tasked with "retiring" replicants illegally returned to Earth. The replicants were NEVER a threat to the survival of humanity, but they were judged to be a security risk and, as machines, were simply to be eliminated if they showed up where they weren't supposed to be.

The Colonials were going to eliminate all Cylons, not just the few who stepped out of line. And they weren't doing it to control a risk, they were doing it for their very survival.

So yes, it's different motives, and a different response.

[Skyhawk]

Human flaws and frailties are one thing, yes, but there are just too many officers and crew who are getting away with too many grossly unacceptable acts in this show.

I may actually agree to that. It may really be too much at some point.

[james968]

If a General was engaged in a Coup and some officer breaks ranks and prevents it and saves the Lawful government. Would the officer be: A hero; Brought up on charges?

My understanding is it is an officers responsibility to disobey an illegal order.

Some of the footage which has come up shows Lee apparently taking a Civilian Role in the Government. It may be that Adama finally gets tired off him in the military and he gets kicked out.

JMS (B5) talked about the lack of accountability in SciFi shows and how the next week the character is back on the bridge the next day. That was one of the reasons that he made Sheridan suffer the consequence of only living another 20 years after his visit to Za'Duum. (Lee getting kicked out the Military would I think be such a consequence).

[JDS]

Well Lee has already resigned, but he's obviously coming back...he KNOWS that his place is in a Viper.

Will Adama kick him out? The end of the final episode proves what we all really knew...everybody would rather deal with Apollo screwing things up as an officer than deal with Apollo NOT being in his Viper when the shit truly hits the fan. And, because humanity is being hunted to extinction, the shit will probably continue to hit the fan on a regular basis.

Now I think that Cain, seeing how many officers were behaving unacceptably, and faced with the reality that you can't shoot EVERYBODY in the head, would know what to do. She would just start punishing the loved ones of the frakups. But Adama won't do that.

[BlackTigh]

If a General was engaged in a Coup and some officer breaks ranks and prevents it and saves the Lawful government. Would the officer be: A hero; Brought up on charges?

My understanding is it is an officers responsibility to disobey an illegal order.

Yes but without knowing their law (although I suppose it's fair to say it is loosely based on "our" law) it is hard to know whether or not the plan was illegal.

As I said, Helo was not a part of the plan (I think???). I don't believe he had any specific orders. He just got in and frakked things up for the rest of the human race. Boils my p**s, that does...!!!


Tigh, now there's a warrior. Okay he hits the bottle pretty hard but he did not fail to punish his wife for what she did which was less dangerous than Helo's act. What did Adama do? Have a quiet word with the offender and sweep it under the carpet.

Disgraceful!

I'd rather watch Tigh's badly-handled martial law imposition than Adama's pussy-footing.

[Briggart]

Hi all! Interesting discussion!

I think that under our laws, the plan would be illegal. The virus would fall under the Biologiocal and Toxin Weapon of Mass Destruction cathegory, and its use, production etc... is prohibited by ONU threaties.

Speaking of WMD, I just realized that we (I ?) really don't know much about cylon society. Obviously, we see the cylons directly involved in the war, but are they the only ones? Are there any civilian cylons?

If one sees the cylons simply as machines, I think the point is moot. The humanoid cylons obviously pass Turing Test, so I am unsure If we can still consider them machines, so IMO civilian cylons may be something to consider in this discussion.

Anyway back to Helo, there's something I don't have clear. Helo confessed to Adama in a bonus scene. Is this actually canon? i.e. do Adama now know for sure that Helo killed the infected cylons?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

As I said, Helo was not a part of the plan (I think???). I don't believe he had any specific orders. He just got in and frakked things up for the rest of the human race.

Helo was in on the plan, seeing as he was XO at the time. What his role was, though, was unclear.

Speaking of WMD, I just realized that we (I ?) really don't know much about cylon society.

Yeah, the lack of any real, meaty backstory (outside of the obvious stuff) is really irksome to me. We still don't know the true motivations that sparked the war.

Obviously, we see the cylons directly involved in the war, but are they the only ones? Are there any civilian cylons?

I would think they are. While the most iconic Cylons are going to be the Centurions, because they were the face of the Cylon War, it would be wrong to assume that the Centurions were the only model. I'm thinking that there were probably models of Cylon for mining, repairing ships in space, and even entertainment (I would even go as so far as to say that there were Cylon fembots).

Anyway back to Helo, there's something I don't have clear. Helo confessed to Adama in a bonus scene. Is this actually canon? i.e. do Adama now know for sure that Helo killed the infected cylons?

That's a good question, and one that doesn't have an easy answer. The writers have mentioned that they view deleted scenes as stuff that has actually happened, and write based on that fact. On the other hand, some of the deleted scenes show story arcs (think the Sagittaron stuff) that fly in the face of established canon.

[JDS]

I think that under our laws, the plan would be illegal.Uh...what? What country does "our laws" refer to? If you mean the U.S., then if I remember correctly, we don't have any current biological weapon stockpiles and it's executive policy not to use them, but not technically law. My memory is a bit hazy on this, though...

Obviously, we see the cylons directly involved in the war, but are they the only ones? Are there any civilian cylons?I don't think there's really a strict distinction among the humanoid Cylons between "civilian" and "military". I see their society as being very amorphous and homogenous.

Anyway back to Helo, there's something I don't have clear. Helo confessed to Adama in a bonus scene. Is this actually canon? i.e. do Adama now know for sure that Helo killed the infected cylons?Deleted scenes are one thing, but the "bonus" scenes are pretty reliably canon.

Yeah, the lack of any real, meaty backstory (outside of the obvious stuff) is really irksome to me. We still don't know the true motivations that sparked the war.Welllll...RDM would point you to Hero, as they probably consider that cack-handed attempt at backstory to be all you need to know about the motivations for the war. But as far as other backstory...yeah, I suspect that even the team would agree that we could use a whole lot more of that.

[Briggart]

Uh...what? What country does "our laws" refer to? If you mean the U.S., then if I remember correctly, we don't have any current biological weapon stockpiles and it's executive policy not to use them, but not technically law. My memory is a bit hazy on this, though...



Hi, I'm Italian. By "our laws" I was referring to the countries that signed the U.N. (I just realized I used the Italian acronym, ONU, in my previous post) treaty on the Biological and Toxic Weapons. I am pretty sure that the U.S. has signed it, but I am not sure what this implies in terms of actual laws.

Sorry for the confusion :)

Regarding the cylons, I agree with you that they have a very homeogeous society, their species is (apparently) few decades old. However, I think that there are a significant number of cylons which
fall under our (i.e. the U.N) definition of civilian.

After all, in some of the caprica episodes they seemed to imitate the colonials society, or to create their own version of it.

[JubalHarshaw]

Can a machine love? I answer that: "No."

Does Sharon love her child, and Helo? I answer that: "Yes.", with plenty of on-screen action to back me up. She turned on the Cylons, risked permanent death by resurrecting to rescue her daughter, to name a few.

Therefore, the humanoid Cylons are more than just machines.

The Centurions are machines, yes, limited machines by design. Equating a humanoid Cylon to a Centurion isn't even remotely correct.

So the rationale of "they're all just machines run-amok, we shouldn't feel any more remorse destroying them than scrapping an old, decrepit motor vehicle" just doesn't really cut it.

Dehumanization of the enemy (heh, I guess that term can't really apply to Cylons, though, right?) is a very common tactic in the ramp-up for war, with a long history. Necessary? Repugnant? Both?

[JDS]

You have to remember that we know a little more about the Cylons than the Colonials do. They really don't have any evidence to suggest that the Cylons aren't operating with one unified will to destroy humanity.

Also, dehumanization isn't even necessary in a situation like this. When fighting for survival, even if your opponent is very human, you are still faced with the decision of destroying the opponent or being wiped out. With the Cylons it's less a tactic and more a side effect of their toaster ancestry.

[chucklitos]

I think we may be putting undo blame on Helo for the genocide bit, after all Adama didn't want to do it either. He asked the President to make the call.
Personally I support Adama's coddling, separate from the fact that they are fighting for their survival and need everyone, because I'm willing to believe that Colonial Military Tradition is different than ours. I don't claim to know squat about military correctness, I do have the sense to understand that some pretty ridiculous stuff happens on Galactica. I think though we should remember that these people don't come from Earth. It seems reasonable that Adama simply has a different style than Cain, both of which are acceptable in this colonial society.
Finally, I don't think Adama is a bad leader. He commands respect by coddling and that has blinded his judgment, but we cannot ignore that respect has gotten him and his people through ALOT of tight spots. Also having Tigh as his XO (my favorite character) simply augments his affectiveness to us as a character to have the juxtaposition and his leadership over the crew. His crew is able to go to him if they have problems or think something is wrong, yes sometimes it goes too far, but it brings out the motions that these poor people are going through. We needed Dee to go talk to Adama and convince him to unite the fleet. This family as Adama calls it so often builds Galactica and makes it run. You would not want it any other way. Mutual respect seems better than respect through the politics of fear.

[JDS]

You actually raise a good point. Effective or not, not ALL military culture is the same as the contemporary ones that we are (or are not) familiar with. The Romans encouraged soldiers to become each other's lovers. That sure as hell wouldn't fly today, but it seemed to work okay for them for hundreds of years. Different society, different customs.

[james968]

That a would expect would get kicked out of a real military.

Granted she is a good pilot (based on the Criteria of the BSG universe), but so was Bud Holland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Holland) (in ours)


In the "Woman King" I think Helo was getting the crap assignments as a result of what had happed with the Bioweapon. Near the end of that episode, he was waiting for the marines to come and cart him off to the brig.

[BlackTigh]

Didn't Helo kill a Pegasus officer in a fight in the Brig? Yet another reason why he should be shovelling *** not being made up to CAG. Unreal...!!

He's the Teflon Man - nothing sticks to him!

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Didn't Helo kill a Pegasus officer in a fight in the Brig? Yet another reason why he should be shovelling *** not being made up to CAG. Unreal...!!

He's the Teflon Man - nothing sticks to him!

Actually, Tyrol killed him when he grabbed Thorne and threw him into an exposed bolt, which hit him in the left temple.

[BlackTigh]

Yes, true, but Helo was complicit. They were both held responsible by Cain but Helo got away with it.

I guess this represents another failure of their military system: The two crews of the Battlestars at each other like that.

Can you imagine the last two USN aircraft carriers getting together then being subject to that much ill discipline?

My point is, the show is meant to replicate the human system (ours) but set in space against a "foreign" backdrop. Their frailties are meant to be ours also but no military I've ever had anything to do with would behave like they are portrayed as doing.

This is a typical format by the sort of people who produce these shows (and movies). They can't help inserting their own left-wing tendencies into the personalities of the warriors. It ruins the whole effect - for me, at least.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

To be fair, I tend to agree with you regarding the depictions of the military in television. I wouldn't go as so far as to say most of them are "left-wing"; I would probably say that most of it is to make conflict, make story, which is what "Pegasus" did.

On the other hand, most depictions of the military don't deal with a post-apocalyptic event. Having never (thankfully) experienced such an event in real life, we don't really have any idea of how people would react, one way or the other.

To be honest, there's nothing that would stop two USN aircraft carriers from turning on each other when it came right down to it... other than discipline.

[Skyhawk]

On the other hand, most depictions of the military don't deal with a post-apocalyptic event. Having never (thankfully) experienced such an event in real life, we don't really have any idea of how people would react, one way or the other.

To be honest, there's nothing that would stop two USN aircraft carriers from turning on each other when it came right down to it... other than discipline.

I'd say you hit the jackpot with this one. Remembering that Pegasus and Task Force Galactica epitomise two totally different "camps".
Pegasus is the desperate fighting animal while Galactica would be the defensive preservationist.
A conflict in such an "Hour of the End" would be very easy to spiral out of control.

[Aset]

I guess this represents another failure of their military system: The two crews of the Battlestars at each other like that.

Can you imagine the last two USN aircraft carriers getting together then being subject to that much ill discipline?

In a post-apocalyptic scenario where each commander felt the other was out of control? Yes, quite easily. Perhaps not to the degree they take it in this scenario, but it could & would be explosive.

My point is, the show is meant to replicate the human system (ours) but set in space against a "foreign" backdrop. Their frailties are meant to be ours also but no military I've ever had anything to do with would behave like they are portrayed as doing.

That depends on which "human" military you are taking your direction from. There are quite a few military systems that did these type of things. They were also encouraged to do them.

This is a typical format by the sort of people who produce these shows (and movies). They can't help inserting their own left-wing tendencies into the personalities of the warriors. It ruins the whole effect - for me, at least.

I would say this is more for dramatic effect than for any "leftist" leanings of the writers.

[aylinn]

There are 2 points of view.
First point is that I can agree that people on Galactica do sometimes bend laws, they do break them actually. I think that Helo should be punished for what he did, just because his girl is a Cylon. OK, I understand that he loves Sharon and that she betrayed their own race to be with Helo but to me it's not a reason to save all Cylon nation (although, I don't mine keeping some 6s alive ;)). Adama should have done sth with that. I think that Cally was punished the way everybody would punish her. She wasn't punished for killing Sharon but for the fact that she took the law in her own hands. Nobody cared about Sharon when it turned out that she was a Cylon. At that times Cylons were toaster, who don't have brains but a software, and the actions thay make are programmed.
The second point is that I would choose Adama's style of taking care of the fleet than for example Cain's. Maybe Adama treats Galactica's crew as a family but he believes that they will do anything to keep the fleet alive and working even if they make mistakes. Cain on the other hand, is ruthless and seems not to care about her crew although she has to realize that there is no replacment. She shot her own XO in fornt of her people just because he obeyed one order. If I were part of that crew I would lose all the respect I had for her. I must admit that she was a strong and demanding leader but she made her own people afraid of her. And it's not a good choice. What she cared was her own survival. Of course she cared about her crew in a way but Pegasus had to work and the people were needed to run such a big ship. Opposite to Adama she chose to take everything she could from the civilian ships and we can only speculate if she would do that if Laura Roslin was with her keeping guard for the civilians.
Maybe there is some lack of ethics on Galactica but it' better that way than using fear.

[BlackTigh]

Hmmm. Having just watched the last three episodes of season 3, I have to agree that the producers do seem to have explained the lack of accountability through Apollo's court-room speech.

I still think the officers they seek to portray would never have committed most of those acts but it looks like that doesn't seem to matter...

Interesting about Tigh, the Chief, that jingly woman and the other guy - the sports dude Starbuck was chonking. I had no idea!

I am very displeased Tigh has turned out to be one of Them. He's faced many humiliations in this series but this one takes the cake!

[Zikenol]

One must keep in mind this is the last of humanity. Rules change at that point in exchange for survival. Which will always trump military structure/ ethics or whatever else. Look at the Pegasus, very close to how a ship military wise would be ran. XO shot for questioninmg the admirals orders( treason) and last I checked the Pegasus wasn't fairing so well. The situation is vastly different thus the rules must also adapt. Sorry if someone said this I just read the first few replies.

[BlackTigh]

Look at the Pegasus, very close to how a ship military wise would be ran. XO shot for questioninmg the admirals orders( treason) and last I checked the Pegasus wasn't fairing so well.

That was Apollo's doing.

I rests me case.

[Zikenol]

Um it was Cain who killed of f so many crew members (some of the last in the human race) in the name of tacticalness. You can't blame Apollo for taking command of a doomed ship.

[JDS]

that jingly womanHahaha...I know who you're talking about purely through the process of elimination...what the hell?

I must agree, though, I don't at all like Tigh (and to a lesser extent the Chief) for the Final Five. It just doesn't sit right with me.

[BlackTigh]

Hahaha...I know who you're talking about purely through the process of elimination...what the hell?


They jingle-jangle with all the gold bangles on their wrists, etc. "Jingly" At least out here in the Middle East it is so.

[JDS]

They? Political aides have gold bangles in the middle east?

[BlackTigh]

They do if they're head-wobblers.

Strangely, the one on the Galactica doesn't wobble her head. The cylons must've programmed it out of her...

[Aset]

What the hell is a "head-wobbler"?

[BlackTigh]

A jingly. Apparently Vancouver's full of them. That's where they film it, right??

[JDS]

I don't think anybody understands you.

[aylinn]

Yeah, I kinda don't get it also. What the frak is jingly and head-wobbler? :D

[JDS]

Hold on now...he's in Iraq, but none of us understand him...he must be a Polack! :D

(Just kidding man, stay safe and good luck!)

[Dymero]

Hey, everyone, I'm new!

Found this forum earlier, and was reading this thread. BlackTigh mentioned "gold bangles." Doing a little research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangle), a bangle is a piece of traditional Indian jewelry. Rekha Sharma, the actress who plays Tory Foster, has Indian ancestry. Jingly must be some reference to the sound of the clanking together of multiple bangles. I'm still baffled by "head-wobbler," though. Although, I hope it isn't some kind of stereotype.

Anyway, ethics. I agree that the people who are misbehaving should be punished, but I don't agree that anybody should be executed. When you're dealing with a population that smaller, against a formidable threat, I think you would need all the good hands you can get. People like Chief, Helo, and Apollo, despite their flaws, are good people, and skilled military men.

Also, I don't think there needs to be any more quick killings. Look at how many people were clamoring for Baltar's head, even before his trial. Then look at how quickly the "collaborator jury" (three of who ended up being Cylons, oh the irony) executed people, and how close Gaeta was to getting it, before Chief had his brainwave.

Punishment, yes. I'd even support demotion like some people suggest, and I think some of them do deserve it. But, not execution, not when the fate of all are on the line.

[aylinn]

Hold on now...he's in Iraq, but none of us understand him...he must be a Polack! :D

(Just kidding man, stay safe and good luck!)
Hey! I'm from Poland...I can't understand what he says so... :p But the truth is Polish military could learn decent English. Imagine Polish soldier meeting Galactica crew and trying to communicate? Even Cylons would give up :D

[OrionFour]

He's speaking in tongues! The power of Christ compells you! The power of Christ compells you!

[Skyhawk]

XO shot for questioninmg the admirals orders( treason)

I heartily disagree. It was not an act of treason for the XO to question Cain's orders at that moment.
The Executive Officer is there to be the right hand of the Commanding Officer and also for the CO NOT to have absolute power over the crew and the decisions and actions that are taken. The XO is in fact the only member of the crew who is entitled to relieve the CO of duty when his/hers orders become questionable.
I would believe Cain broke the military code of justice by what she did.

An analogy based off a book I recently read:

1946, Greece. Greek forces aided by a US Advisor Group are engaged in a struggle against communist militia. A greek battalion is struggling to hold a hill, amongst them a US advisor lieutenant. Not far away is a greek regiment that could potentially reinforce the hill but the commanding captain does not want to give the order in face of heavy mortar fire on the slope. He is shot by a US Captain from the advisors and the regiment charges the hill finding only twelve still alive. Among them the young US lieutenant.

4 Years later:

1950, Korea. Reinforcements arrive for the 24th Armored Rgt/24th Inf Div recieving M4A3 tanks, among them a black Lieutenant - tank company commander. When nearing the front line he encounters a retreating lieutenant and some soldiers (As some might know the whole 24th Infantry Division deserted the field when it came in contact with the NKPA) and executes him for cowardice.

A bit later... 1952. Korea. The black tank commander's court martial trial. The young lieutenant from greece (now a major and coincidentally a close friend of the accused tanker) testifies for the defense. The prosecutor asks:
"Could you, major, imagine a situation where an officer shoots a fellow officer on the battlefield ?"
"Yes" is the aswer.
"Excuse me, major, but how can you justify that ?"
"I can because such an action once saved my life".
From W.E.B. Griffin's "The Captains" (Fiction but an excellent story)

Now back to Pegasus.

Admiral Cain set the idea of leading a guerrilla campaign against the cylons. The Relay was indeed a great target for such a hit-and-run raid but in no tactical sense worth sacificing the people and resources that she did. The Pegasus had all the ability to disengage after the ballance changed and skulk for another easy kill.
Cain broke the rules of engagement, endangered the vessel with unnecesary damage and personell with unnecesarily high casualties. There were no allied forces in danger to justify a "Death or Glory" attack.
She made a mistake and it was the XO's duty to attempt to reason with the CO. A military vessel is not the "field of abslute dominance" of it's commander. It is a tool to be used with apropriate tactical sense to ensure success in all appointed operations, combat or not.

That being my point of view.

All in all, I rate Razor 11/10 in my awesomeness scale. :)

[JDS]

Found this forum earlier, and was reading this thread. BlackTigh mentioned "gold bangles." Doing a little research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangle), a bangle is a piece of traditional Indian jewelry. Rekha Sharma, the actress who plays Tory Foster, has Indian ancestry. Jingly must be some reference to the sound of the clanking together of multiple bangles. I'm still baffled by "head-wobbler," though. Although, I hope it isn't some kind of stereotype.I'd say BlackTigh gets an "F" for effective communication. It's like decoding a riddle.

Skyhawk: Excellent analysis. In fact when I saw it, I thought for a moment that Belzen was going to try to relieve Cain...it's hard to say what would have been more realistic, honestly...if you argued that Belzen knew Cain well enough from years of experience, then I'd say he wouldn't have just stood there and continued pleading with her, he would have seen what she was doing and relieved her when she didn't back down...on the other hand, if you argued that he'd never seen her in actual combat before, maybe he really didn't know how she'd react and thought he could talk her out of it.

Remember though...the Colonial Fleet doesn't follow the UCMJ, they have their own laws, and we don't know exactly what they are.

[BlackTigh]

the Colonial Fleet doesn't follow the UCMJ, they have their own laws, and we don't know exactly what they are.

Well, as has been mentioned here (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Naturalistic_science_fiction) in the essay link, BSG is meant to about 'us'.

Our show is first and foremost a drama. It is about people. Real people that the audience can identify with and become engaged in. It is not a show about hardware or bizarre alien cultures. It is a show about us. It is an allegory for our own society, our own people and it should be immediately recognizable to any member of the audience.

From that, we can safely assume the rules they operate under are much the same as ours, albeit adjusted to cope with the additional pressures they exist under due to their environment.

That's why I say all these acts are extremely unlikely for a bunch of professional warriors to have committed. Okay, Apollo's speech explains why they were forgiven but I say for them to have been committed in the first place would be the exception, rather than the norm.




btw: A head-wobbler is someone who wobbles his or her head, incessantly. You guys have never seen this??? :confused:

[JDS]

Well, as has been mentioned here (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Naturalistic_science_fiction) in the essay link, BSG is meant to about 'us'. [...]Well yes, but in an allegorical sense. We really can't assume that everything is IDENTICAL until told otherwise. We can assume that things are similar, but not specific details.

btw: A head-wobbler is someone who wobbles his or her head, incessantly. You guys have never seen this??? :confused:No.

[aylinn]

What is wobbler anyway? All I found is that a Wobbler is a Norwegian rock group or this wobbler (http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5257/wobbleric0.jpg) :D
I guess I need to buy a new dictionary.

[BlackTigh]

Well yes, but in an allegorical sense. We really can't assume that everything is IDENTICAL until told otherwise. We can assume that things are similar, but not specific details.

Well, I think you're making it needlessly complicated then. The man states their aim in that essay. The comparisons are obvious in the finished productions. The differences between the actions of the characters and what you'd find in real life are simply the manifestations of the show's producers' values and outlooks, which do not match up with what you'd find on a real Battlestar (aircraft carrier).

How do I know? Having served a year or two, I've seen how real officers and men react and behave. What you see on BSG is really irritating.



Indians (from India, not the kind you used to find in the States in the cowboy days) have a silly habit of wobbling their heads during conversation. No one knows what it means when they do this. Not even they know. My comment was that the Indian on the TV show seems to have had it trained out of her. Was that by the Cylons? Or regular smacking with a stick by the producer?

......just wondering. :tos-cylon:

[JDS]

I know quite a few Indians and I've never noticed them do that. I'm gonna watch for that from now on...

[BklynBruzer]

Well, I think you're making it needlessly complicated then. The man states their aim in that essay. The comparisons are obvious in the finished productions. The differences between the actions of the characters and what you'd find in real life are simply the manifestations of the show's producers' values and outlooks, which do not match up with what you'd find on a real Battlestar (aircraft carrier).

How do I know? Having served a year or two, I've seen how real officers and men react and behave. What you see on BSG is really irritating.



Indians (from India, not the kind you used to find in the States in the cowboy days) have a silly habit of wobbling their heads during conversation. No one knows what it means when they do this. Not even they know. My comment was that the Indian on the TV show seems to have had it trained out of her. Was that by the Cylons? Or regular smacking with a stick by the producer?

......just wondering. :tos-cylon:

Okay, 2 things.

A) Don't be racist.
B) You don't seem to realize that Galactica is NOT an Earth situation. Their entire civilization has been destroyed. They are all that is left. We've seen strict adherence to the old military code. That strict adherence resulted in Pegasus basically being a pirate ship where gang-rape is okay, and it also resulted in the Gideon incident.

[JDS]

A) Don't be racist.I didn't see anything racist.

We've seen strict adherence to the old military code. That strict adherence resulted in Pegasus basically being a pirate ship where gang-rape is okay, and it also resulted in the Gideon incident.I don't think that's true at all. Those things resulted not from strict adherence to military discipline, but rather from decision that revenge had to override protection of the civilian populace. That directive actually could be considered to be completely out of line with military discipline. Cain, as a flag officer, has the authority to dictate strategic mission objectives, but the military's duty to protect its nation is not negotiable even by flag officers. If raiding a few ships and leaving them to die was necessary to save Caprica, for example, it could be justified, but as far as Cain was concerned, those ships WERE the Colonies.

[BklynBruzer]

I didn't see anything racist.

My comment was that the Indian on the TV show seems to have had it trained out of her. Was that by the Cylons? Or regular smacking with a stick by the producer?

In my book, a statement that puts a race of people basically on the level of a dog or other pet where a habit has to be trained or beaten out of them is pretty frakking racist.

[JDS]

I don't know about that, I think EVERYBODY has bad habits that might be dealt with quite will through a good smack now and again. I know I certainly do.

I guess if you want or expect to see racism every time somebody mentions race...well...you will.

[BlackTigh]

My dad used to beat bad hiabits out of me as a kid and I turned out just fine...

I live amongst a million Indians, almost all of whom do this head-wobbling thing. Is that racist? Please don't panic about racism, people are different in different parts of the world. Enough of your racism-claptrap.

As for B) you may well have to go back to the start of this thread to understand the point. Have you been in the military anywhere? If yes, is that the way the troops/officers behaved? I don't think so!