Razor Flashback 5

[alpha5099]

After the frakking awesome action of episodes 3 and 4, the fifth one takes a turn towards the trippy and confusing. What did Adama see? What's the deal with the arm that disappeared? And who's behind the door?

You know who I think is behind the door? Saul Tigh. I realize they already said that Adama and Tigh met after the war, but I'm pretty sure that was only in a deleted scene and hasn't been said anywhere else. So, a little retconning, and Adama met Saul Tigh when he was seemingly being held prisoner by the Cylons.

[Serenity]

That part is actually in the television version of "Razor" and - unlike the special effects porn earlier - relevant to the plot. It provides some first-hand background to stuff that's only told by characters otherwise. They didn't cut everything out.

[ThPrime]

Well he saw and heard nothing, until he made contact with the goo.

And as if to dismiss the idea this badly spooked young rook is having an overactive imagination, a hand grabs his wrist causing him to react violently. He has to pull so hard to free himself he falls on the floor. Once breaking contact the "vision" immediately ceases.

So to liberally extrapolate from this new piece of the puzzle:

1) Adama experienced a Cylon projection generated by the resurrection tank. It was an immersive auditory, visual and physical experience; virtual reality. We've seen projections numerous times already, enough by now so that we as viewers may recognize this particular projection for what it truly is.

2) Projection technology existed 41 years ago and 4000 years ago; temple of Athena, temple of five. A newly added dateline further lending credibility to the notion that projection is merely preexisting technology appropriated by the Cylons (Model 0005) to further their own ends. But it remains lost, forgotten or unknown to the twelve tribes of Kobol, the Colonials.

3) The goo itself is the medium of communication. The cables connected to the basestar hybrid are more likely for long term sustenance i.e. life support.

4) Evidently any human can experience a projection. The technology is specifically designed to interface with the human nervous system and brain centers, products of evolutionary wetware shared in common by humans and humanoid cylons. Although humanoid cylons have the ability to spontaneously generate, or receive, projections from internal enhancements. Whereas humans require an external interface, physical contact with a resurrection tank, standing within the tomb of athena, suffering from an implanted chip? and even perhaps being in proximity to a hybrid with new abilities, Hera.

5) Simply experiencing a projection is not damning evidence of being a Cylon. William Adama, Lee Adama, Laura Roslin, Gaius Baltar, Billy Keikeya, Kara Thrace and perhaps others have all had this experience. Gaius Baltar is the constant recipient of personalized projections, cause still unknown.

Or maybe not :D

[alpha5099]

That's some mighty fine speculation there.

I forget: when did Billy project?

[OrionFour]

Yes, interesting theory's indeed - i'll go with you on this.

I think the evidence is certainly there that Cylon projection can be expanded to include non-Cylons. I'll credit you for pointing out that any human can in fact experience it, as long as the technology is nearby, or a Cylon. Although I would caution not to confuse a memory or flashback or even shock with a projection. There is a difference between them (although a vague one I admit).

As long as we're speculating here wildly, I would like to pose some speculation of my own from early in the series that goes along the grain of what you're saying here. One theory I had was that projection is not only an inward experience (a private vision), but can also be an outward experience as well. That is, as long as the technology is present, multiple humans can be made to see the same image (ie the revelation in the temple of athena, like you said). The reason this came up for me is because of two still unexplained (at least not adequately) phenomena from the first season - the appearances of Ellen Tigh and Shelly Godfrey.

It just seems to me that RDM was trying hard to suggest something fundamental about the series with these two. For instance, Ellen Tigh appears out of nowhere - not even the captain of the ship she's on can remember seeing her before a week before she showed up. RDM goes to extra effort to make that clear. Now, with the revelation that Saul Tigh is a Cylon, that really hits home with me. It might be, that she was never actually there, she was just one of Saul's projections.

As for Shelly Godfrey, RDM goes to extra effort to show how when Baltar's Six was gone, Shelly Godfrey shows up, and vice versa. Additionally, she just appears, and then disappears. RDM makes sure you get this with the shot of her literally disappearing around a corner (of course I'm beating a dead horse here, read the Notes section under Shelly Godfrey).

But yeah again, maybe not. Again it's just a theory and shouldn't be taken as anything more than long-shot speculation. Not even sure if I believe it myself.

[ThPrime]

I forget: when did Billy project?

"Ahhh, where the hell are we?" - Billy

"I don't know. Tomb of Athena, I think? I thought we were already in the tomb? I think that was the lobby."

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5295/tombofathenamk6.jpg

[JDS]

I can see the logic behind Ellen Tigh and Shelley Godfrey being projections, but I think that could be stretching it just a little too far. Especially because the appearance of Ellen completely took Saul by surprise...he wasn't sitting around saying, "Damnit, where's Ellen? Bill, can't you find Ellen for me?" Adama just showed up one day with the crazy bitch in tow. And Shelley Godfrey...that's even more problematic. I can see how Saul Tigh, a Cylon, might be able to project to surrounding humans, and I can see how the Cylons could be projecting onto Baltar, but Baltar is human AND he doesn't have any evil Cylon chip in his brain, so I don't see how he could be projecting on anybody.

[james968]

On it being Tigh being one of the prisoners. If S Saul Tigh is one of the "people" they rescue, this would explain Adama's loyalty/protectiveness for Tigh. "Hey the guy's been cylon guinea pig, if he wants a drink...." . Especially if Adama feels like he rescued him.

In "Scattered" Tigh has a flashback were HE (from Tigh's perspective) first met Bill Adama. Bill and Saul both appear to be in civilian clothes and (I'm assuming) it is after The War. It could it be that Tigh was not entirely lucid when he was 'rescued' and doesn't remember the "Lab". Adama recognizes him and realizes the reason he is such a frack up and as one veteran to another takes him under his protection. Seeing that flashback it has always struck be that Bill knows that "We will be good friends" when he is introducing himself.

Of course their are truck size holes in this scenario, primarily it doesn't jibe with much of the "Overheard History" and the fact 'cannon' fact that Tigh was an Ace Viper Pilot. If this was at the very end of the war, he wouldn't have had time for it.

A couple of thoughts on Baltars projections. There are 2 assumptions which I think are clouding the picture. One Cylon technology is 'chip' based. With Human Agents, the Hybrid, the Liquid Interface(the goo), etc; it looks to me that their technology has gone beyond 'chips', possibly something the size of chips but made out of (what appears to be) Natural Neurons (or maybe even a suspension of goo floating around Baltars circulator system). Two, who said anything about it being in his head? Adama managed to get a limited Projection by having his hand in goo (and that was through a space suit glove).

Onto the silly: Of course since we do tend to think with our other head quite often.....

[james968]

On it being Tigh being one of the prisoners. If S Saul Tigh is one of the "people" they rescue, this would explain Adama's loyalty/protectiveness for Tigh. His thinking may be "Hey the guy's been cylon guinea pig, if he wants a drink...." . Especially if Adama feels like he rescued him.

In "Scattered" Tigh has a flashback were HE (from Tigh's perspective) first met Bill Adama. Bill and Saul both appear to be in civilian clothes and (I'm assuming) it is after The War and they are both mustered out. It could it be that Tigh was not entirely lucid when he was 'rescued' and doesn't remember the "Lab". Adama recognizes him, and realizes the reason he is such a frack up, and as one veteran to another takes him under his protection. Seeing that flashback it has always struck be that Bill knows that "We will be good friends" when he is introducing himself.

Of course their are truck size holes in this scenario, primarily it doesn't jibe with much of the "Overheard History" and the fact 'cannon' fact that Tigh was an Ace Viper Pilot. If this was at the very end of the war, he wouldn't have had time for it.

A couple of thoughts on Baltars projections. There are 2 assumptions which I think are clouding the picture. One Cylon technology is 'chip' based. With Human Agents, the Hybrid, the Liquid Interface(the goo), etc; it looks to me that their technology has gone beyond 'chips', possibly something the size of chips but made out of (what appears to be) Natural Neurons (or maybe even a suspension of goo floating around Baltars circulator system). Two, who said anything about it being in his head? Adama managed to get a limited Projection by having his hand in goo (and that was through a space suit glove).

Onto the silly: Of course since we do tend to think with our other head quite often..... maybe its in that head. :-)

[alpha5099]

I don't think Saul being an Ace Viper Jock and being a Cylon Prisoner are mutually exclusive. Sail could've been a badass Viper Jock, but gotten shot down and presumed dead, but then Adama found him.

[ThPrime]

A couple of thoughts on Baltars projections. There are 2 assumptions which I think are clouding the picture. One Cylon technology is 'chip' based. With Human Agents, the Hybrid, the Liquid Interface(the goo), etc; it looks to me that their technology has gone beyond 'chips', possibly something the size of chips but made out of (what appears to be) Natural Neurons (or maybe even a suspension of goo floating around Baltars circulator system). Two, who said anything about it being in his head?

In the miniseries, Caprica Six told Baltar she had implanted a chip inside his head while he slept. In Home Part 2, Baltar hits a wall of skepticism and refuses to believe in or cooperate with Head Six any further. In a calculated gambit to regain control over him, she confesses she is nothing more than a chip implanted in his head. By episode's end, after a clean brain scan, he believes there is no chip, hence Head Six must be a divine presence as she originally claimed.

Theories about Baltar's manipulation by artificial means, over and above psychological coercion, are collectively referred to as The Chip™ for brevity.

Me personally, I go with Grace Park's theory (http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/News/An-interview-with-Battlestars-Grace-Park.html). A diffuse system of networked nano sized microscopic critters. Normally dispersed to avoid detection but coalesce when needed to perform Cylon Super Powers, such as operating cylon water dish panels, talking to Galactica's fiber optic cable or having SpineGlow sex :)

[chucklitos]

I thought it kinda looked like Leoben from the short view we got. In which case that might be why in the pilot Adama figures out the sick guy on Ragnar is a cylon, because he finally remembers where he has seen that face already, and if he doesn't manage to save the guy in these webisodes, then he's going to think "aha, I've seen this guy before, he must be a baddy if he never got free."
I think we're being slightly too presumptuous in thinking that it's Tigh, because we're assuming that Adama is going to get the guy out. He's behind a big door. This seems like one of those moments when the hero says, "I can't get you out!" and then Cylons come in and the hero is forced to run away or something.
It seems that the cylons are obviously experimenting with becoming more human in this place. I suppose one question it raises though, are the people that Baltar sees when Adam are using the interrogation drugs on him (he finds he's in a tank surrounded by what seem to be mutated children and/or adults) people that somehow exist in the cylon realm as some of the first people that the cylons experimented on? As in did Baltar see the test subjects that perhaps didn't work? I'm guessing some didn't work from all of the "screaming" and the death bodies and parts thereof lying around.

[alpha5099]

I always thought that the people that Baltar saw were people killed on New Caprica, the innocent people whose blood is on his hands.

[JDS]

I don't think it's Leoben OR Tigh.

I just think it's too early for the humanoid Leoben to be walking around, and Tigh...well, it's just a feeling. It doesn't seem quite right.

[james968]

I don't think Saul being an Ace Viper Jock and being a Cylon Prisoner are mutually exclusive. Sail could've been a badass Viper Jock, but gotten shot down and presumed dead, but then Adama found him.

My old theory (based on his wiki biography) was that Saul Tights introduction into the Human society had something to do with the boarding of the Brenik (sp?) and his survival. (Or possibly the second ship that Tigh was serving on (after the Brenik) which was also boarded. (He had rotten luck until going to OCS). The fog of war would allow for some confusion and maybe a substitution, addition or switcharoo.

Though Ron really has me wondering now.......

[Tavius]

Can I just say that when I first saw the cylon human experimentation room (or whatever it was), it did strike me that the man behind the door did look oddly like Leoben.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

And the woman kinda reminded me of either a Six or an Three.

[OrionFour]

And I could have sworn one of those screams reminded me of a Five.

[james968]

Me personally, I go with Grace Park's theory (http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/News/An-interview-with-Battlestars-Grace-Park.html). A diffuse system of networked nano sized microscopic critters. Normally dispersed to avoid detection but coalesce when needed to perform Cylon Super Powers, such as operating cylon water dish panels, talking to Galactica's fiber optic cable or having SpineGlow sex :)

That was along the lines of what I was thinking.

[james968]

And the woman kinda reminded me of either a Six or an Three.

The woman looks to me more like a 6. Can anyone tell her age?

One thing that has struck me from the beginning (of the flashbacks :p).
is the odd shape of the "Building".

I'm thinking we are seeing the general Physical Templates (not the psychological ones) of the Leoben and 6. (They cylons probably started with them and made improvements, a half starved 6 that looks like she just spent a few month as a cylon rab rat, probably wouldn't satisfy their goal of a looker).

As a saw the building move it occurred to me maybe it is a version 1.5 Basestar.

[alpha5099]

Actually, I thought that the scared man in the lab bore a fairly strong resemblance to Anders. I was actually fairly surprised, and was watching carefully, unsure if maybe it was just Michael Trucco under some make-up. I'm pretty sure the part is credited to someone else though.

[JDS]

As a saw the building move it occurred to me maybe it is a version 1.5 Basestar.Doesn't it actually look a little tiny bit like it's firing thrusters to take off?

The fact that Adama just falls through the roof kinda rules out the idea of it being any sort of spacecraft...but it's still an interesting visual direction they went in.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Without spoiling too much, there are clearly buildings that are outside the main facility. Adama seemed to crash inside of those, and not on the actual ship itself. If you note, the building was falling apart, or so it seemed.

[JDS]

Ohhh...so we are actually seeing something take off, and the buildings around it (including the one Adama is inside) are being knocked down by the thruster wash.