The Last Cylon Theories

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

My article on who the last Cylon could be has been published at Associated Content:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/422026/the_last_cylon_who_is_the_fifth_of.html

Let's rip into that horrible, horrible article. :cool:

Oh the pain, the pain.

[ThPrime]

Well written article. The first five pages are a rock solid foundation to springboard a theory.

That the last reveal must be greater than that for Tigh is a practical necessity in terms of story structure. The shock value inherent in your candidate (or wtf! quotient) perhaps best fulfills this requirement from the lineup of primary characters.

"Who is the final Cylon?"
Skiffy poll: 6 of 281 votes
tv.com poll: 14 of of 290 votes
Skiffy poll: (who is NOT a cylon?) tied for first

Literally, almost nobody would see it coming. RDM has shown an abiding preference for seizing on the unexpected so this avenue would certainly have its appeal to him.

[Rukia]

I read the article before signing up to this forum, well written indeed. For some reason that possiblity had never crossed my mind at all.

Yet thinking about it now it is entirely plausible. And would be a complete shock I feel to most. It certainly has got me thinking.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I'm happy that both of you thought it was a great article. Thank you! :)

Anyway, Lee didn't cross my mind initially either. The more I thought about it, the more it just made the most sense. Plus the WTF! quotient is high, particularly with Saul Tigh being among the "Crossroads" revelations. They would need to top that somehow, otherwise it would just be an "oh, yawn" moment.

[alpha5099]

Oh no, personally, Lee's been a favored candidate for Cylon-hood from even before there was only one left to be looking for. Just in terms of the emotional cachet associated with a reveal, there's no one who would send greater shockwaves through the series than Lee.

I realize that it would take some wiggling to make it make sense for him to be a Cylon. But there's so much we don't understand about the Final Five. They're so fundamentally different. Would it not be possible that they were somehow born from humans? I think the writers have left the Final Five an open enough book that Lee could be a Cylon.

And would make the best, in my opinion.

[OrionFour]

Well, I'm convinced.

You know, from the moment Leobon whispered into Roslin's ear about Adama being a Cylon, I've been chomping at the bit for something, anything to explain it. It's been seriously bugging the crap out of me since the episode was aired, and it's something I simply can't let go. I've really never accepted that it was a deception.

I've been secretly hoping that the Razor minisodes will help explain this. Where does William Adama's curly little genetic material happen to be after all? Inside a Cylon lab! Two more left, we'll see.

[BklynBruzer]

......

Very good, Joe. I'd never thought of it that way. Phenomenal article, and a supremely logical conclusion.

[burningman]

Great article!
One thing that keeps coming to mind when i think about this 5 cylon business is the Xena Apology scene in the temple.

Would she be apologizing to Lee? I can't remeber anything she should apologize for in general unless it was a general sorry for bombing Caprica type apology.
I just can't figure out how that line fits in.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Everyone,

Thank you for your feedback! Glad everyone enjoyed the article!


One thing that keeps coming to mind when i think about this 5 cylon business is the Xena Apology scene in the temple.

Would she be apologizing to Lee? I can't remeber anything she should apologize for in general unless it was a general sorry for bombing Caprica type apology.
I just can't figure out how that line fits in.

Well, from what I've read on the boards, it seems to be the general assumption that she was apologizing to Tigh. Out of the four members of the revealed Final Five, Tigh's been the one who has been inflicted the most pain, in terms of losing an eye and being put into a position to deal with his wife's treachery, which was wrought at the hands of the Cylons.

Also, it may just be a general apology, since all of the Final Five are in the Colonial Fleet, which has been victimized by the Significant Seven Cylons.

[burningman]

Yeah my thoughts were Tigh as well..but i can see the other way as well.

[alpha5099]

Although Anders was probably the most personally, directly threatened by Three: she did try to kill him in Downloaded.

But yeah, I'd probably go with the general apology theory.

[Tavius]

Nice article, I recall seeing somewhere a comment that the fifth has been around since the end of season one, if this is true then it might not be Lee. I've searched for the quote but I cant seem to find it.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Hi Tavius! Welcome to the forum!

It was mentioned that they knew who one of the Final Five were by the end of season one, not so much that the the last Cylon appeared at the end of season one. Although whomever the Cylon was, I'm reasonably sure that they didn't call him a member of the Final Five, seeing as the concept is new and really didn't pop up until the third season.

Unless there is another interview floating around out there that I overlooked, of course. ;)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

For those looking about the posts regarding the 12 archetypes that the Cylons are supposed to represent, I've split that into another thread:

http://battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=250

[toaster_lover]

fantastic article, very well thought out...

You've convinced me...and theres goes my theory the last cylon was Dualla...lol

Like yourself, I had put together that the final five were very close to "important" humans thru out the series. My reasoning lead me to think that Dualla was married to Lee, so she must be the last. She also played a huge part in influencing Lee AND Bills' decisions several times.
I also was convinced the final cylon was female due to something I read on scifi.com, but I cant recall the details.

edit: hmmm, my autofill mustve replaced my screen name I chose with my email when i registered. Any way to fix this?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Hi Karen,

Glad you enjoyed the article! I did briefly think that Dee was somehow a Cylon, but the more I thought about it, the more I dismissed it because revealing her to be a Cylon character would be relatively dull. Plus in terms of the whole "12 archetypes" criteria, people like Dee have been already represented in Sharon and, partly, in Six.

I'll see what I can do about changing your name on the forum. Did you want your username to be "karenbb71" or something else entirely? Let me know!

[toaster_lover]

revealing her to be a Cylon character would be relatively dull. Plus in terms of the whole "12 archetypes" criteria, people like Dee have been already represented in Sharon and, partly, in Six.



I wholeheartedly agree..I hadnt considered the archetypes, and it makes perfect sense

ps...check your PM's :o

[northtwilight]

Hey Joe,

Nice article, and quite logically well-argued. One further support (from left field, admittedly), and two quibbles, respectively:
- While RDM has often borrowed liberally from TOS, one other source that is not nearly as well-recognised is the SDS precursor that was abandoned -- and I think that SDS suggests another support for your theory. As you know SDS had many elements in their continuation that RDM later coincidentally*,1 used/took on board --
-- a decommissioned Galactica;
-- long time period with Armistice in place;
-- female President of the Colonies (not present in the original);
-- New Caprica established as a stand-in for Earth (that allows the Colonials the opportunity to lower their guard);

-- but the most relevant in regards to your thesis is the bit where Apollo ends up missing and presumed dead during the hiatus between the ABC series and the continuation. The reveal at the end of the continuation is of another Cylon -- but this time, it's not Boomer, but rather Richard Hatch's original Apollo, as a human/Cylon cyborg/hybrid.


The quibble I am wondering about concerns the music heard by the Final Four -- if Lee is the Final Cylon, why doesn't he hear it? Could it be because he's already fulfilling his mission to protect humanity by default, and doesn't need activation? Personally, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me (vis-a-vis storyline, dramatic tension, or anything else), but I can't really think of why anyone (never mind specifically Lee) would not hear the tune if he/she were a F5 Cylon.

2nd quibble: - Roslin's chamalla giving her visions are one thing, but I think the factor allowing her to plug into Sharon Agathon's and Caprica Six's shared projection is the Cylon blood the good Doc injected into her in S2. She may be partially colonised by the Cylon cells -- and not altogether successfully, given that her cancer has returned.

Anyway, thanks for listening to my rambling, and sorry about the length.

Cheers
Mass

(Massimo Savino)





* I want to stress, I am **not** taking the position that RDM is a hack, as some of the old TOS/GINOids have suggested. Sure I liked TOS, but I was 9, man...
1 Most of you know this already, but for those who do not, pls see the Cylon Alliance (http://www.cylon.org/bsg/bsg-desanto-01.html) for more details (http://www.cylon.org/bsg/desanto-revival01.html).

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I'm very happy to see that I'm not the only one who has ever noticed the correlations between the SDS and RDM versions. Actually, in my original draft of the article, I actually added that Apollo was to be Cylon-ized in the SDS continuation, but removed it, since the article is up there in terms of page count already. LOL

As for Roslin's vision and the reason why Lee didn't hear the music, my theories are out there, but I frankly don't know enough to hazard a guess. I will say this, I think that Roslin is able to share Caprica's and Athena's vision because of the nano-tech theory that Grace Park referred to in an interview.

[northtwilight]

I just thought of something that may be another quibble. Then again, it could be just evidence of sloppy thinking on the writers' part. After the fiasco of Crossroads Pt II (I must be one of the only people in the world who hated the finale for its plain bad writing), who knows?

OK. The Final 5 are supposed to be unknown to the Sig 7. If Lee is the Cylon of the two Adamas, how does Leoben know? I really can't figure that out. Does he guess with the aim of messing with Laura's head? What do you think?

Cheers
Mass

ps: You should put that part back in! I found the article really well-done and I suspect many people who liked it would agree.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Yeah, I actually found the Final Five thing to be something pulled out of RDM's ass at the last moment. Frankly, I found Season 3 to be mostly disappointing. While I'd like to say that SCIFI's insistence on having standalone episodes for the noobs was part of the problem, pretty much all the blame lays at the writers' feet for that season.

However, don't get me wrong, there were still parts of the season that are redeemable and downright wonderful. Season 3 could've been worse: it could of been Stargate Galactica.

As for Leoben's claims, he hasn't exactly been lying about things to date. Even with the whole Kacey mind frak, Starbuck does accept Kacey as a sort of daughter, despite Kacey being reunited with her true mother later on.

Now in regard to re-adding the Apollo/SDS item, it's a bit too late to edit the article on Associated Content, but when I reprint it on BattlestarPegasus, I'll probably add it in there. (With pictures. LOL)

[northtwilight]

With you on S3. The 1st 5 episodes are, I think, some of the best they've ever done. But just about everything after that was a bitter disappointment, week after week. The midseason cliffhanger was actually kinda dull, as you knew they wouldn't nuke the planet, but was only mildly interesting for the revelations about the Temple.

I had a friend who was totally hooked when he caught Pegasus on Space, so I lent him the DVDs. He wrote this extensive email to me basically saying 'WTF?!?' on Crossroads, and I couldn't even defend it at that point. (Seriously, a trial? Christ... So BSG is Perry Mason in space now? Lee making a pointless speech? I dunno. I even found the Adamas' conflict contrived -- they're getting on for the most part, and now suddenly they're not? And when did Bill lose his balls to Roslin? By the end of it, when I wasn't puking over All Along the Watchtower, I was wondering when we'd see the Western episode next. Just like the Prisoner, TOS, Star Trek ...). sorry man, ranting again.

Back to the topic: About Leoben - it's not so much that he's lying or telling the truth, but rather, how does he know? We know the Threes are unaware of the identities of the Final Five until D'Anna sees them in the temple, so the presumption is that the other six models don't know either. Is he guessing? I suspect he doesn't know, but that creates a small problem for the theory because it raises a small element of doubt as to the extent of the Sig Seven's knowledge of the F5 identities.

Looking forward to seeing the new material on BSP!

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I didn't mind All Along the Watchtower so much. The trial was contrived though, so was the conflict between the Adams, but I did rather like Lee's speech, although what he said was rather obvious.

As for the "Western episodes": out of those that you mentioned, I rather liked The Prisoner episode for all the mind games.

Anyway, I think the Significant Seven know about the Final Five, but have decided to suppress that information out of some social imperative. I also tend to think that Cavil knows more about the Five than the rest, which is why he was the one who boxed the D'Annas. Actually, aside from the visible aspects of simulated age, I believe Cavil is one of (or simply is) the oldest of the Seven and may have been somehow involved with the division. But that's a lot of assumptions on my part.

However, since the Cylons have begun to exhibit divergent personalities from their twelve archetypes (Boomer, Athena, Caprica-Six, Leoben and D'Anna, for example), it doesn't surprise me that this information is becoming accessible and sought for.

Hell, for all we know, Leoben came up with this on his own recognizance, seeing as he believes the Hybrids know something that the rest don't. Which seem to be the case, and what revelation is revealed by the Hybrid from "Razor".

[northtwilight]

Thanks, man. That's very thought-provoking, I really hadn't thought about much of that. The arguments for Cavil being a central figure in the schism are good ones, and Razor's hybrid has to be related to that as well (never mind what he said, which was weird in itself -- perhaps a classic RDM feint as well).

Will concede Living in Harmony was a pretty good way to have a Western episode; the thematic elements were quite well done. But they do generally indicate shark-jumping territory ...

I am beginning to wonder if the Cylons have some form of faulty mind-reading going on. I can't really see how they'd all seem to have the ability to recognise just about every important Colonial they seem to meet otherwise. I say faulty because it clearly isn't perfect, nor do they seem to be aware of each other enough (Gina's reveal in Razor, for instance). Then again, one of the latest previews for S4 has C-Six commenting to Laura about how she 'can feel the Final Five' and all. So who knows?

I just don't know. Part of me is dreading April (if, with the strike, it really does come about at that time), hoping they just won't fuck it up with shitty writing or abysmal standalones. Not that everything needs to be tied up with a neat little bow, but enough so that things hang together logically.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Yeah, Cavil always struck me as being the lone dissenting voice against the Significant Seven's plans. If you take a look at Cavil's comments in "Lay Down Your Burdens", you'll find that he has an underlining disdain for the Cylons "plan", which rears its head again during the New Caprica occupation arc.

On another matter, I'll have to update the article because of "Razor" and the Flashbacks. It seems to me that my theory has more merit now, given the whole "Adama blood" thing in the fifth flashback, which only adds credence to the fact that Lee could very well be Adama's son... just not Carolanne's... and a Cylon to boot.

Oh, and by the way, did anyone notice the line in "Razor" where Adama said "We both did what we had to do to accomplish our missions." (emphasis is mine).

I'm not too sure what to make of that, to be honest, but the distinction struck me. If the plural is deliberate, what were the other missions, other than the obvious two? (The survival of the Fleet and the destruction of the Hybrid.)

[alpha5099]

I have to agree that Season Three was a let down, although I wasn't so disappointed to be worried about shark jumping. I don't know, Galactica hasn't been perfect since Season 2.0, it started to slip after the let down of the conclusion to the Pegasus cliffhanger. Oh, why couldn't we have had a civil war?

Although I've thought about it quite a bit, and there's really only three episodes of Season Three I really hate: A Measure of Salvation, Hero, and A Day in the Life. AMoS was just a horrible conclusion to an only slightly promising first part, and Hero and A Day in the Life added absolutely nothing to the series. Even some of the other standalones I liked. The Woman King and Dirty Hands were both perfectly enjoyable episodes, even if they didn't do much for the overall arc. Although there was at least some build up for Baltar; that's A Day in the Life's biggest fault: it doesn't deal with Baltar at all.

I must admit though that some of the "major" episodes of the season didn't set my heart on fire. The midseason cliffhanger was fairly meh, and I really didn't care that much about Maelstrom. I like Kara, but I honestly don't usually like Kara-centric episodes. Also, I was so very, very spoiled on everything that it just didn't really matter. Her "death" was entirely perfunctory.

BTW, and bringing this reply toward being on topic, where is this shot of Adama bleeding? I didn't see it when I watched the Flashback, and I couldn't find it when I just rewatched it now.

(If this blood isn't the origin of Lee, I at least hope the Cylons made a Bill Adama clone so Nico Cortez can return in the series proper.)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Actually, it wasn't Adama "bleeding" -- it was the Cylon he beatdown. LOL

[Edison]

I'm going to go out on an edge for my first post....

I'm not 100% convinced those 4 are Cylons.

-The Presidents Aid...okay I might buy this one, as we really don't know much about her.

-Sam I might buy, after all it does make some sense he sorta wormed his way into Starbuck's life, and aboard the Galactica.

-Tieg....yeah I'm not buying that at all, primarily because he was with Adama in the first war, when Cylons were still toasters. Any skinjob would have been one hell of a plant. Granted he could have been replaced on New Caprica, which would make some sense as to why he killed his wife...I don't know I just don't quite buy he being a Cylon.

-The Cheif....this one is my biggest doubts, 1) His past relationship with Boomer sorta seems silly now, Cylon on Cylon seems counter productive, and a damn good way for them to have been caught. 2) Him and Kally have a child, if the Cheif is a Cyclon than wouldn't this child be a hybrid like Boomer and Helos baby? I would have immagined a second hybrid something the Cylons have been VERY interested in, would have activated him much sooner. 3) Haven't most Cylons had a twist in their past, orphaned...thought dead? Also 4) there have been like a dozen places where the chief's turn would have helped the Cylons even more...The Resurrection Ship, New Caprica, The Temple, etc.


As for Starbuck...I mean it seems obviosu that she could be, but I'm wondering something else. Maybe their unnatural interest in her is because she is the first Cylon hybrid child....it would explain her visions and such.


I don't know just shooting out thoughts.

[northtwilight]

One of the main things RDM has tried to emphasise in his podcasts has been the idea that the F5 Cylons are 'fundamentally different' from the others. I'm not entirely buying it on this one, because the fact of the Last Cylon's inactive state currently (as far as we know it at this point in the story) disproves it.

There are some 'imperatives,' as Cain would put it, that suggest reasons for the Final Four being activated now:

1. The fleet has reached the Nebula, which contains some subliminal activation marker that points to Earth, and to the final confrontation between human and Cylon
2. If RDM's saying the F4 are fundamentally different, then Nicholas Tyrol has to be a different sort of hybrid from Hera -- the source material is not the same as a Sharon, a Gina, a Six or a Three.
3. One suggestion that Joe might be inferring from the 5th flashback is that Lee is another hybrid offshoot, like Nicholas Tyrol. In the 5th Razor flashback Husker puts his hand into the Razor's Hybrid tank, and has vision flashes of people being dismembered horribly. So the tank has psychoactive properties. What if some of Adama's (the elder) DNA was transferred at that time to the Cylons?

(See, that also makes no sense from within the storyline, but we can go down that road at a later point)

Cheers
Mass

[james968]

I'm going to go out on an edge for my first post....

I'm not 100% convinced those 4 are Cylons.

-The Presidents Aid...okay I might buy this one, as we really don't know much about her.

Would it have been Billy, if the actor hadn't missed the chance?


-Sam I might buy, after all it does make some sense he sorta wormed his way into Starbuck's life, and aboard the Galactica.


He guys, lets go do some High Altitude Training this weekend. I just feel this urge to get out the city


-Tieg....yeah I'm not buying that at all, primarily because he was with Adama in the first war, when Cylons were still toasters. Any skinjob would have been one hell of a plant. Granted he could have been replaced on New Caprica, which would make some sense as to why he killed his wife...I don't know I just don't quite buy he being a Cylon.

TIgh and Adama didn't meet until after the war. ("Scattered" ). As for killing Ellen, it was pretty obvious that Anders or the other insurgents were going to kill her anyway. Tigh managed to do it (ironically) in a very humane way.


-The Cheif....this one is my biggest doubts, 1) His past relationship with Boomer sorta seems silly now, Cylon on Cylon seems counter productive, and a damn good way for them to have been caught. 2) Him and Kally have a child, if the Cheif is a Cyclon than wouldn't this child be a hybrid like Boomer and Helos baby? I would have immagined a second hybrid something the Cylons have been VERY interested in, would have activated him much sooner. 3) Haven't most Cylons had a twist in their past, orphaned...thought dead? Also 4) there have been like a dozen places where the chief's turn would have helped the Cylons even more...The Resurrection Ship, New Caprica, The Temple, etc.

I think the Final Five, though they don't have renegade programming. Do subconsciously pick up on things. Anders probably didnt know "Cylon Holocaust, this weekend" , but his subconscious/intuition told him get out of town and provided the reason for him.

The way that Anders and Tory hooked up, is probably the way that the Chief and Boomer hooked up. Again they didn't know "another cylon, lets go try and perpetuate our race" but something in the subconscious/intuition triggered off the "She/he's hot, lets hook up"


As for Starbuck...I mean it seems obviosu that she could be, but I'm wondering something else. Maybe their unnatural interest in her is because she is the first Cylon hybrid child....it would explain her visions and such.

I've wondered that also. If she's not a Cylon, maybe she's a hybrid. Her mother was on a remote outpost and had a messianic belief that Kara was special. (I also wondered if Socrata was actually a cylon, granted she wasn't seen in season 1, but she was referred too) and if she was off the same block as Tigh...... her attitudes seem the same.

Also that would explain some of the long term animosity between Tigh and Kara. She has unresolved anger issues at her mother and Tigh reminded her of him.

It would also explain why/how the Gas Giant Leoben, knew about Socrata's last days.


I don't know just shooting out thoughts.

Ditto

[northtwilight]

Would it have been Billy, if the actor hadn't missed the chance?
I think about that a bit. Of course for him it seems to be more important to be on YouTube putting Mentos into fizzy pop.


He guys, lets go do some High Altitude Training this weekend. I just feel this urge to get out the city LOL



TIgh and Adama didn't meet until after the war. ("Scattered" ). As for killing Ellen, it was pretty obvious that Anders or the other insurgents were going to kill her anyway. Tigh managed to do it (ironically) in a very humane way.
That's good that you point that out -- a lot of people seem to miss that fact. I always found it weird that Tigh appropriated the 'one moving forward, one moving aft' anecdote as his own, instead of as something that happened to "a buddy of mine from the war". Granted it's not unusual for people to make themselves out as more capable/experienced/whatever than they really are, but it struck me at the time as something that wasn't true to his character, a false note.

[JKeehner]

so i was watching the episode Maelstrom that i bought from Itunes and at around 4:03 and 4:02 minutes/seconds from the end of the episode we see lee and he's looking out his window and initially we are following one viper in our field of vision and then another viper comes in and the first one fades out. the second viper is the one that we see explode... i swear to god there are two of them, seriously you guys should re-watch the episode... there were definitely two of them (one had red lights) and i think starbuck was in the first one that didn't explode.

In maelstrom there is a lot of christian mythology, Kara is supposed to explore "what hovers in the space between life and death" and after she overcomes her fear of death by facing her own mother's death, she can give herself over to it. whatever that "it" is. I also thought the whole circularity of time that has been repeated over and over again throughout the series (all this has happened before and all this will happen again) was present in this episode with the symbol kara was obsessed with which could represent the circular nature of time and the idea of parallel universes/universe within a universe (red within blue within yellow), and Kara's flying into the center was her breaking through that time continuum. Also when she sees her mother dying head leoben is like "she's waiting still," implying that somewhere in some other parallel reality her mother is still alive. I don't think that starbuck is a cylon, cylons are afraid of death and she is exploring death.
The other four cylons are interesting to me in that they are loyal but they are also very very human with some incredible character flaws, the resistance on new caprica was spearheaded by three of the final four cylons, they were responsible for suicide bombings and other dangerous tactics that caused more harm than good. furthermore tigh was kind of demented in his pursuit of the cylons, i remember watching the episodes on new caprica and thinking to myself: what a whackjob, no one should put him in a position of power. all four of them are loose cannons and kind of power hungry (except maybe for chief- but remember the tribunal episodes where they were killing traitors from new caprica) Their brutality is disturbing.
I think it is significant that the final 4 cylons get "turned on" when they get closer to earth, maybe the cylons are the 13th tribe? and they can feel when they get closer to home, i also thought it was interesting how in crossroads2, the power went back on when chief said outloud that they were cylons and had been all along. I also think it is interesting that the thirteenth tribe built the temple on the algae planet dedicated to the final five cylons, maybe they are essential in guiding the path to earth, and that is why they hear the music when they get closer. along that vein maybe starbuck is the final cylon and we didn't see her hear the music because she wasn't on the ship at the time, but she is ultimately responsible for guiding them all to earth
I can't even begin to tackle the origin of the final five cylons though i think it is unlikely that they were "switched" after birth, i think its more likely that their past was created for them... i like the idea that the 12 cylons represent the 12 lords of kobol but i think that is unlikely given the current plot path... also if starbuck isn't a cylon who the heck is her father?

i know that is kind of a mess but it's my train of thought

[Edison]

Would it have been Billy, if the actor hadn't missed the chance?



He guys, lets go do some High Altitude Training this weekend. I just feel this urge to get out the city



TIgh and Adama didn't meet until after the war. ("Scattered" ). As for killing Ellen, it was pretty obvious that Anders or the other insurgents were going to kill her anyway. Tigh managed to do it (ironically) in a very humane way.



I think the Final Five, though they don't have renegade programming. Do subconsciously pick up on things. Anders probably didnt know "Cylon Holocaust, this weekend" , but his subconscious/intuition told him get out of town and provided the reason for him.

The way that Anders and Tory hooked up, is probably the way that the Chief and Boomer hooked up. Again they didn't know "another cylon, lets go try and perpetuate our race" but something in the subconscious/intuition triggered off the "She/he's hot, lets hook up"



I've wondered that also. If she's not a Cylon, maybe she's a hybrid. Her mother was on a remote outpost and had a messianic belief that Kara was special. (I also wondered if Socrata was actually a cylon, granted she wasn't seen in season 1, but she was referred too) and if she was off the same block as Tigh...... her attitudes seem the same.

Also that would explain some of the long term animosity between Tigh and Kara. She has unresolved anger issues at her mother and Tigh reminded her of him.

It would also explain why/how the Gas Giant Leoben, knew about Socrata's last days.



Ditto


Excellant points, and I did miss that fact about Tigh....god this wait is killing me.

[Rukia]

so i was watching the episode Maelstrom that i bought from Itunes and at around 4:03 and 4:02 minutes/seconds from the end of the episode we see lee and he's looking out his window and initially we are following one viper in our field of vision and then another viper comes in and the first one fades out. the second viper is the one that we see explode... i swear to god there are two of them, seriously you guys should re-watch the episode... there were definitely two of them (one had red lights) and i think starbuck was in the first one that didn't explode.

I re-watched Maelstrom and I agree that Lee definitely sees two contacts in his field of vision but I'm not sure if they are both Vipers. The first one that disappears from his field of vision has purple lights it could be the Cylon Raider that Kara sees or it could be another Viper.(I can't remember what color the engine lights are on a Cylon Raider) There is the possibility that she was in the first one and it was the second that exploded but I think its debatable about whether or not they were both Vipers - but that might just be how I'm seeing it.

I still don't think that Kara is the last Cylon, to me that would be too obvious and would defeat the point of her story in my eyes. If she is the one that is meant to guide them. There is still a lot that we don't know about Kara Thrace only that she has a certain destiny to fulfil. Given also the fact that she re-appears at the end of Crossroads in a Viper, the theory of there being two does hold some weight.

[ThPrime]

The lead ship in that last sequence is a Cylon Heavy Raider (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Heavy_Raider)

The same craft, or same type, Starbuck saw during her first flight over the Maelstrom. This is not a hi-def cap but you can make out the distinctive profile of the heavy: BSG Media: Maelstrom screencap 615 (http://bsgmedia.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=264&pos=614)


We do see all three ships from our point of view, external to and behind Lee's POV. This "objective" perspective, not seeing through a character's eyes, is usually employed to imply the truth of a scene. What is really there. But curiously, RDM answered a question specifically about this shot, saying "Lee did not see it." (even though we, the viewers, do)

Make of that what you will.

[OldManRivers]

After reading your article, I became quite convinced it was Lee Adama. But after reviewing the mini-series, plus other external information (Like David Eick saying they've known who's the Final Cylon for quite some time now, even going back to season 1.) Plus mysterious circumstances surrounding her appearance on the colonial fleet, I'm going to call Ellen Tigh as the Final Cylon.

Although I've had heated debates with close friends about the Last Cylon (Most of him are viewers, not fans, of BSG), think it's Starbuck. They cite evidence of her return to the fleet in Crossroads Pt2, and the seemingly odd resurrection. But given I know Katee has said she is not a Cylon, and that the Executive Producers have known since season 1 who the Final Cylon is. (Actually, wouldn't it be funny if the next episode was called "The Return of Starbuck"...LOL)

I say Ellen Tigh for a few reasons:
- She said a mysterious person saved her from the attack on the Colonies. She was returning to meet up with Saul, when the attack began and a unknown person carried her unconscious body aboard the ship.

- She fits the ideal of "12 Archetypes of Humanity". If we take the other Cylon models and use them a point for 12 Archetypes, Ellen Tigh would fit the most infamous traits of humanity.

- The Producers have said they have known who was the Final Cylon since season 1. Ellen Tigh has been with BSG since season 1.

- The Final Cylon wasn't present during the revelation of the Final Five. This would stand to reason for her being dead. Saul Tigh killed her back on New Caprica because she betrayed the resistance.

Obviously many questions remain, but Ellen Tigh should be given considerable weight in the theory-making of who's the Final Cylon.

There is my two cents.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

There's a quote by Aaron Douglas... I don't know where it, but when I get the time, I'll dig it up if no one beats me to it... where Douglass says that the Final Five can't resurrect once they've died.

Since Ellen was poisoned, I think that rules her out.

[OldManRivers]

Then maybe the last cylon is dead...lol

[ouiouiwewe]

cylons are afraid of death and she is exploring death. Tell that to D'anna Biers.

By the way, the following is a list of Season 1 characters that are not Cylons or parents of Human-Cylon hybrids:

Edward James Olmos (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Edward_James_Olmos) as William Adama (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/William_Adama)
Mary McDonnell (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Mary_McDonnell) as Laura Roslin (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Laura_Roslin)
Katee Sackhoff (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Katee_Sackhoff) as Kara "Starbuck" Thrace (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Kara_Thrace)
Jamie Bamber (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Jamie_Bamber) as Lee "Apollo" Adama (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Lee_Adama)
James Callis (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/James_Callis) as Gaius Baltar (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Gaius_Baltar)
Kandyse McClure (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Kandyse_McClure) as Anastasia Dualla (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Anastasia_Dualla)
Paul Campbell (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Paul_Campbell) as Billy Keikeya (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Billy_Keikeya)
Alessandro Juliani (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Alessandro_Juliani) as Felix Gaeta (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Felix_Gaeta)
Samuel Witwer (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Samuel_Witwer) as Crashdown (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Crashdown)
James Ashcroft (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/James_Ashcroft) as Spectator #1
Mario Battista (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Mario_Battista) as Gardner
James Bell (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/James_Bell) as ECO
Eric Breker (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Eric_Breker) as Gemenon Traveller (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Gemenon_Traveller) Captain
Leah Cairns (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Leah_Cairns) as Margaret Edmondson / Racetrack (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Margaret_Edmondson)
Luciana Carro (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Luciana_Carro) as Louanne Katraine / Kat (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Louanne_Katraine)
Morris Chapdelaine (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Morris_Chapdelaine) as reporter #2
Warren Christie (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Warren_Christie) as Ground Crew #1 (Tarn (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Tarn))
Terry Chen (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Terry_Chen) as Perry / Chuckles (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Perry)
Paul Cummings (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Paul_Cummings) as Fireball (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Fireball)
Pat Adrien Dorval (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Pat_Adrien_Dorval) as Wilkens (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Wilkens)
Lorena Gale (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Lorena_Gale) as Elosha (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Elosha)
Alex Green (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Alex_Green) as Deckhand
Biski Gugushe (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Biski_Gugushe) as Eick (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Eick) / Sekou Hamilton (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Sekou_Hamilton) / "Pilot #1" Miniseries (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Miniseries)
Jen Halley (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Jen_Halley) as Ground Crew #2 (Seelix (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Seelix))
Richard Hatch (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Richard_Hatch) as Tom Zarek (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Tom_Zarek)
Patricia Idlette (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Patricia_Idlette) as Sarah Porter (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Sarah_Porter)
Colby Johannson (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Colby_Johannson) as Dwight Saunders / Flat Top (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Dwight_Saunders)
Nimet Kanji (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Nimet_Kanji) as Candace Myson (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Candace_Myson)
Shaw Madson (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Shaw_Madson) as Marine Corporal
David Kaye (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/David_Kaye) as James McManus (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/James_McManus)
Tobias Mehler (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Tobias_Mehler) as Zak Adama (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Zak_Adama)
Bill Meilen (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Bill_Meilen) as Caprica Cleric
Bodie Olmos (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Bodie_Olmos) as Brendan Costanza / Hot Dog (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Brendan_Costanza)
Alonso Oyarzun (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Alonso_Oyarzun) as Socinus (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Socinus)
Donnelly Rhodes (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Donnelly_Rhodes) as Doctor Cottle (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cottle)
Christina Schild (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Christina_Schild) as Playa Kohn (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Playa_Kohn) / Playa Palacios (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Playa_Palacios)
Ron Selmour (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Ron_Selmour) as Seaborne (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Seaborne)
Jim Shield (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Jim_Shield) as Karma (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Karma)
Raahul Singh (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Raahul_Singh) as Kimmit (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Kimmit)
Stephen Spender (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Stephen_Spender) as Pilot
Malcolm Stewart (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Malcolm_Stewart) as Marshall Bagot (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Marshall_Bagot)
Cailin Stadnyk (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cailin_Stadnyk) as Ensign Davis (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Davis)
Camille Sullivan (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Camille_Sullivan) as Stepchild (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Stepchild)
Jill Teed (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Jill_Teed) as Sergeant Hadrian (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hadrian)
Kate Vernon (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Kate_Vernon) as Ellen Tigh (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Ellen_Tigh)
Robert Wisden (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Robert_Wisden) as Wallace Gray (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Wallace_Gray)
Alex Zahara (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Alex_Zahara) as Valance (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Valance)
Dominic Zamprogna (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Dominic_Zamprogna) as Jammer (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Jammer)Ellen and Roslin come up high in my potential Cylons list.

[Aset]

Both Lee & Ellen being the final Cylon definitely have merit.

As for her "death", playing devil's advocate, how do we know for sure she really IS dead? We know hardly enything about the organic cylon's & even less about the final 5 "models". Yes, I realize it's kinda out there, but it is conceivable that she was just in some sort of "shut-down" mode to rid her of the poison & continue functioning. They left pretty quickly after she died.

[Briggart]

Well, this is not actually a theory, but I'd really like for Dr. Cottle to be the last cylon.
The only real surgeon in the fleet it's a cylon. :p I think that would be an interesting storyline, and also make sense IMO. Cylons have agents in the upper ranks of the vital systems of the fleet: politics, military, media, logistics. They are just missing the health department.

I agree that this would hardly beat the shock value of Saul being a cylon, however.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Doctor Cottle would be cool as a Cylon... But they already have someone as equally abrasive and politically incorrect in the form of Saul Tigh. :D

[Sgt_Smiles]

Kara Thrace is the harbinger of the apocolypse, therefore, #5. /Thread.

[alpha5099]

Being the Harbinger of the Apocalypse doesn't necessarily make someone a Cylon. Especially considering the other four Final Five are loyal to the humans, and did so much to help save the human race on New Caprica. I don't think just because Kara is going to destroy humanity, that makes her a Cylon; these days, it seems like compelling evidence against that idea.

[Gaelic Cowboy]

I think we should hold off on the final five are good idea myself we cant really know. I mean Boomer helped the fleet find water in 33 and brought the rag tag fleet back to colonial one in the miniseries and she found Kobol all things which could be seen in good light but she ended up blowing away Adama. The good acts a cylon does may be part of its cover or be the result of the conscious and unconscious being in conflict as the victim/protanganist whicever you prefer tries to retain its humanity. For my money it is either Cottle, Gaeta or Dualla with a preference for Gaeta. He just happens to have wanted to study genetics in college after his tour he just happens to be good enough to network a computer something that has never been done on galactica ever. He is able to write a software firewall to slow down the cylon virus enough to safeguard the mainframe. He manages to find out what the device in CIC does. Also he is involved in the construction of the cylon detector meaning he has access to the results this is why Baltar does not know who the five are. The cylon detector works it just outputs a green for pass automatically but baltar still knew the real result as evidenced from Ellens test surely gaeta must have done some of the tests as Baltars assistant. Gaeta is smart enough to follow Baltars work on finding earth and miraciuosly finds a piece of paper with vital info in my view until the show proves me wrong we cant be discounting people like these just cos we like dislike them. A lot people hated Tigh as a cylon but for me its ok as the evidence fits for him being a toaster so to me its gospel.

[The Nubs]

Gaeta does make sense since most of the other final 5 were part of the resistance and were help by Gaeta during that time on the inside. Could be some sort of subliminal progamming that they must help the humans in any way even if it means putting their own life on the line. Anders with the resistance on Caprica and then with the others on New Caprica. Also, if you remember Starbuck was about to kill him so that would tie into her being the death of the human race if she would have killed one of the final five who are the protectors of the humans?

[ouiouiwewe]

Hmm.. I am kind of skeptical about the Final 5's intentions. As said a few times before, they are referred as the "five lights of apocalypse" and are affiliated with the "one who's name cannot be spoken".

[Aset]

FRAK! This will drive me INSANE!!!!

[Tavius]

Yes, I realize it's kinda out there, but it is conceivable that she was just in some sort of "shut-down" mode to rid her of the poison & continue functioning. They left pretty quickly after she died.

Thats interesting because she was supposedly "unconcious" aboard the Rising Star for three weeks before she was found.

[Aset]

Thats interesting because she was supposedly "unconcious" aboard the Rising Star for three weeks before she was found.


I jsut rewatched Tigh me up Tigh me down. They only remember her being there for a week. The 2 weeks immediately following the attack no one remembers seeign her. They don't remember her getting on the ship, they don't know who found her. She was all of a sudden just "there". It's rather odd really.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I jsut rewatched Tigh me up Tigh me down. They only remember her being there for a week. The 2 weeks immediately following the attack no one remembers seeign her. They don't remember her getting on the ship, they don't know who found her. She was all of a sudden just "there". It's rather odd really.

People are forgetful, particularly when a crisis strikes. Take the woman with the glasses on top of her head in the Miniseries, who later claims to Baltar that she couldn't find them and "must have left them at home".

Remember, Billy had problems keeping track of the population count early in the series.

The Fleet had a lot of infrastructure work going on as well. They had to institute the government, supply lines, etc.

Plus there was a lot of confusion during that time. People weren't able to sleep for the first five or so days and with the water crisis, so people had better things to worry about than some floozy on the Rising Star.

And I'm sure that people eschewed filling out paperwork in lieu of their own survival. Hell, if the Cylons were going to blow them out of the sky anyway, what's the frakkin' point? :tos-cylon:

[awesomeshotdude]

Does knowing who the last of the final five is, from as early as the 1st season, equate to the last of the final five actually being present in the first season ?

[Aset]

I would say probably not. But, that would mean the character was planned for in the 1st season...although it's possible. It's probably unlikely.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Just to add fuel to the fire for Lee, blogger Ben Medler wrote up something about the "12 archetypes" that you can find here (http://lcc.gatech.edu/%7Ebmedler3/blog/?p=24#more-24).

[UnRep]

Lee as the last Cylon! Fantastic theory. Love your original article Joe. That really has got me thinking. The only thing that I thought was reading somewhere about the Last Supper photo with Ronald Moore said that there are no more Cylons in the pic that haven't already been revealed. Mind you saying that, if we take it that Leoben was talking about Lee all along when he said "Adama is a Cylon" then technically he has been revealed, we just didn't pay attention.

The idea of Lee being adopted or replaced as a child would be a bit easier to buy after the reveal of the other four at the end of the last season. Tigh as a Cylon was the hardest one to swallow for me.
Seeing as the four all seem to have been living oblivious to their true nature for so long it would be easy to believe the same of Lee.
Time will tell if your theory is correct.

[Xenon242]

Just to add fuel to the fire for Lee, blogger Ben Medler wrote up something about the "12 archetypes" that you can find here (http://lcc.gatech.edu/%7Ebmedler3/blog/?p=24#more-24).

Actually this guy's approach is not only great, but it makes sense, in principle.

However ... I think he's got the personifications wrong in a couple of cases that might, in fact, affect the final outcome in terms of who's the final Cylon (much as I support the idea that Lee, in fact, is).

I haven't spent enough time giving thought to who personifies what, but one that stands out the most to me is Tory as Innocent. I'm sorry, but she is anything but innocent. Three events to support my conclusion:

- She help to try to steal an election
- She slept around with a married man (Anders, never mind Starbuck was MIA and presumed dead, it was the principle)
- She spaced Cally (huzzah! ¬_¬)

Hardly the actions of an innocent. Like I said, there are a couple more that seem to me to be slotted in the wrong archetype (Sharon is another, for instance), but nonetheless, I think he's on to something with that.

Good link, Joe ! :thumbsup:

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Yeah, I think that the archetypes are a bit off on some of the characters, but he's on the right track at least...

[Xenon242]

I think the problem I have with it is that a couple of the characters can fill multiple roles. For example, Six: she can equally be a lover as well as being a caregiver, in the context of being Baltar's guardian angel, so to speak.

I might have a crack at his method this weekend and see how the dice fall.

[redwards95]

I was high on the Lee theory for a while but lately I've come to feel that it would require a backstory that is just too silly and complicated involving switched babies or the likes. If it's an Adama, then I would point to Lee's mother instead. If she suddenly turns up in an upcoming episode as having been on one of the ships in the fleet all along, that would pretty much cinch it. She is presumed dead on Caprica during the Cylon invasion but there's no definitive proof.

[brokedown77]

Isn't it interesting that 5 episodes in we haven't really picked up any further clues as to who is the 5th. I'd bet that D'Anna reveals this somehow either at the end of these 10 episodes or at the start of the next 10.

[mdwturner]

Isn't it interesting that 5 episodes in we haven't really picked up any further clues as to who is the 5th. I'd bet that D'Anna reveals this somehow either at the end of these 10 episodes or at the start of the next 10.

Apparently the 5th is revealed in Episode 12, or so I've heard.

Joe/all, any speculation on the manner in which Lee is revealed and what happens then (since he's your leading contender)? I think it would be cool if the 5th was revealed via the resurrection tank.

[Wouter]

When you say ep12, is that counting Razor as ep1 and 2 or not? There are 2 conflicting numbering systems for season 4. If you are counting Razor, it would be in "Revelations", which seems unlikely, despite the name, as we are not supposed to learn the identity of the final one until season 4.5.

[mdwturner]

When you say ep12, is that counting Razor as ep1 and 2 or not? There are 2 conflicting numbering systems for season 4. If you are counting Razor, it would be in "Revelations", which seems unlikely, despite the name, as we are not supposed to learn the identity of the final one until season 4.5.

sorry, i don't know .....

[stavrosg]

When you say ep12, is that counting Razor as ep1 and 2 or not? There are 2 conflicting numbering systems for season 4. If you are counting Razor, it would be in "Revelations", which seems unlikely, despite the name, as we are not supposed to learn the identity of the final one until season 4.5.

Should be Revelations.
And the last cylon coule easily be the cliffhanger of the season (like, <Tigh & co> Hey, you know what? We are Cylons... <fifth cylon> omg, I am a Cylon, too!!! -end credits-) :lol:

[bobbavet]

Last off final 5 is a 3 model.

My Theory:

Who is to say they are cylons at all. The cylons do not refer to them as cylons or cylon numbers. Just the final five which somehow are tied up with their destiny (becoming more human). The bad cylons are denying destiny (ignoring and not speaking of the five) whilst the renegade cylons are chasing destiny.

The final five may be the diluted end of 13th tribe blood lines. As I have mentioned earlier some of the 13th may have returned from the original trip to earth. Leaving all the clues (arrow,temple,starmap cave) Chief did mention his parents and a connection with symbols in the temple.

The final five may have some genetic road map back to earth. Remember they all respond to the song and it wasn't a colonial or a cylon song. It was earth song. To find the path they can tune back into the signal and follow the path.

Either way it is interesting. The child once again important, not because she is a cylon/colonial breed but a earthling/cylon breed.

Could the last of the 5 be the boxed Xena? If the cylons when original started cloning, intentionaly or inadvertantly used a returned 13th triber bloodliner. Xena would also be of diluted earth bloodline albeit cylon. Is this why she felt a connection with the child? Is this why she was appearing unstable, is the earth gene resurfacing as they were closer to the path?

[bobbavet]

SPOILER http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aeq_Awi6ho (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aeq_Awi6ho)

YES!

The boxed 3 is one of the final 5 as I have been stating all along.
"You know about the final 5, but you didn't know you were one of them."
She's looking in a mirror. They cut to the Prez to throw you off.

WOOT! Her model cloned from a decendant of F5 clans.

Do I win a prize for winning the F5 Guessing comp?

[genji2000]

SPOILER http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aeq_Awi6ho (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aeq_Awi6ho)

YES!

The boxed 3 is one of the final 5 as I have been stating all along.
"You know about the final 5, but you didn't know you were one of them."
She's looking in a mirror. They cut to the Prez to throw you off.

WOOT! Her model cloned from a decendant of F5 clans.

Do I win a prize for winning the F5 Guessing comp?

This is equivalent to spam you know.

[Shane]

This is equivalent to spam you know.

Agreed. Please watch it bobbavet.

[bobbavet]

Sorry guys, Im just excited that I got it.

[genji2000]

Sorry guys, Im just excited that I got it.

You didn't get it.

I think you posted this same comment in some other threads outside the Spoilers sub-forum - you might want to go back and add spoiler tags.

[BaltarstarGalactica]

I think, and I am only thinking, that Dr Cottle might be the last cylon.

The 12 colonies are based on the 12 zodiacs, obvious! I know, and there is a 13th colony. I read some years back the discovery of the 13th zodiac named Ophiuchus, this constellation in mythology came about when Asclepius a healer, discovered a way to immortality after witnessing a serpent bringing healing herbs to another. Zeus kills Asclepius with a lightning bolt as a precaution to the human race becoming immortals and puts up the constellation to acknowledge the good things which Acslepius has done in his lifetime.

Which points to Dr Cottle.

The FF are said to be priests and Dr Cottle recommends prayer after Roslin is reluctant to undergo diloxin therapy.

Why the four have no "priesty" aspects is beyond me, but we are trying to suss out the last cylon.

[Emperor Fabulous]

Final 5th is revealed in Episode 13 / Episode 11 (by our numbering convention); which is the episode Ron has directed and will be the first episode to air in late 2008/early 2009 when the season picks up again.

So don't expect ep 9 or ep 10 to confirm who it is. :)

[genji2000]

Final 5th is revealed in Episode 13 / Episode 11 (by our numbering convention); which is the episode Ron has directed and will be the first episode to air in late 2008/early 2009 when the season picks up again.

So don't expect ep 9 or ep 10 to confirm who it is. :)

How do you know this?

[Wouter]

AFAIK that's only a theory (and wasn't it rather episode 14/12, "the disquiet that follows my soul" that's supposed to be the one directed by Moore?). Recent comments from actors indicate the reveal will actually be much later. Juliani said in a recent interview he still didn't know who it was by episode 18/16, so unless this is deliberate misdirection (or the reveal is very subtle and only to the audience, so only a few selected actors and the editors would know) the reveal will take a while yet.

[genji2000]

I think, and I am only thinking, that Dr Cottle might be the last cylon.

The 12 colonies are based on the 12 zodiacs, obvious! I know, and there is a 13th colony. I read some years back the discovery of the 13th zodiac named Ophiuchus, this constellation in mythology came about when Asclepius a healer, discovered a way to immortality after witnessing a serpent bringing healing herbs to another. Zeus kills Asclepius with a lightning bolt as a precaution to the human race becoming immortals and puts up the constellation to acknowledge the good things which Acslepius has done in his lifetime.

Which points to Dr Cottle.

The FF are said to be priests and Dr Cottle recommends prayer after Roslin is reluctant to undergo diloxin therapy.

Why the four have no "priesty" aspects is beyond me, but we are trying to suss out the last cylon.

Anders' holding the dying Eight's hand when Athena refused to could be interpreted as delivering the last rites, and Tyrol could be interpreted as giving Baltar absolution when he offers his hand to him in his quarters.

There is as much substantial evidence for any of the less significant characters as there is for Cottle.

[genji2000]

AFAIK that's only a theory (and wasn't it rather episode 14/12, "the disquiet that follows my soul" that's supposed to be the one directed by Moore?). Recent comments from actors indicate the reveal will actually be much later. Juliani said in a recent interview he still didn't know who it was by episode 18/16, so unless this is deliberate misdirection (or the reveal is very subtle and only to the audience, so only a few selected actors and the editors would know) the reveal will take a while yet.

Wouldn't it be fun if they didn't reveal the final Cylon at all and just left a plethora of clues and evidence for a number of characters?

[Wouter]

Wouldn't it be fun if they didn't reveal the final Cylon at all and just left a plethora of clues and evidence for a number of characters?
I don't think so; there needs to be pay-off for this kind of mysteries, or the audience is going to be very disappointed.

[genji2000]

It'd be even better if all the characters found out who it is, but the audience was never told.

[Wouter]

The other way round would be better - we know (and the fifth knows), but the others never find out.

[Xenon242]

Now you're being greedy. ;)

[redwards95]

Anything other than the characters and us finding out the final cylon is unacceptable.

[genji2000]

The other way round would be better - we know (and the fifth knows), but the others never find out.

But that's pretty standard fayre isn't it? It'd push the envelope much more and make the audience almost a character if the other characters discovered something that we all want to know and they didn't tell us.

[Wouter]

Having read the "Wheel of Time" fantasy book series, where one of the main mysteries was never resolved (well, Asmodean's murderer is promised to be revealed in the final book, which will be finished by another writer going by the notes of the original, deceased, author), I think it's not worth it to "push the envelope" on such things. The audience only feels cheated. It's like a murder mystery that never reveals the murderer (which is the whole point of such a book) - you can get away with it once, but don't expect the readers you fooled to pick up another book from the same author.

I'm confident that both audience and characters (those that are still alive, of course) will find out who it is; the dramatic pay-off is too important so it will be done.

[genji2000]

Having read the "Wheel of Time" fantasy book series, where one of the main mysteries was never resolved (well, Asmodean's murderer is promised to be revealed in the final book, which will be finished by another writer going by the notes of the original, deceased, author), I think it's not worth it to "push the envelope" on such things. The audience only feels cheated. It's like a murder mystery that never reveals the murderer (which is the whole point of such a book) - you can get away with it once, but don't expect the readers you fooled to pick up another book from the same author.

I'm confident that both audience and characters (those that are still alive, of course) will find out who it is; the dramatic pay-off is too important so it will be done.

Yes I think you're right that it will be done. I'd like to see something different though (along the lines of the Sopranos ending, as per RDM's blog). At the very least I hope we're left devastated that everyone is dead.

[Emperor Fabulous]

How do you know this?

EDIT!

This says they filmed ep 11 before the strike (by our numbering already) and that ep12 (again, by our numbering) is Ron's. I hold my hands up!

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/03/battlestar-gala.html

Does this mean we're ending on ep11 then for the first half?

[genji2000]

This is just one mention on the web, there are several others that confirm it.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2007/10/battlestar-gala.html

"Moore’s episode, however, won’t air until after the show takes a midseason break and will kick off the remaining episodes in “Battlestar’s” four-season run. Sci Fi Channel executives have not yet determined whether the final season will all air next year or be spread over 2008 and 2009."

Kicking off the second half means ep13 by their numbering, ep11 by ours.

I'll post more links later.

That doesn't actually say anything about the episode that will reveal the Final Cylon, or when it'll air, other than not the last episode. The interview is from the Razor period.

[genji2000]

EDIT!

This says they filmed ep 11 before the strike (by our numbering already) and that ep12 (again, by our numbering) is Ron's. I hold my hands up!

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/03/battlestar-gala.html

Does this mean we're ending on ep11 then for the first half?

No - episode 10 (Revelations) is the last episode of the first half. Episode 11 is the first one of the second half.

[Emperor Fabulous]

No - episode 10 (Revelations) is the last episode of the first half. Episode 11 is the first one of the second half.

Doesn't surprise me to be honest. A clean 10/10 split is more sensible.

All we do know is, Ron's episode *is* the reveal.

[Wouter]

Do we "know"? Or only guess?

Because it's curious that Juliani says he still doesn't know while they're shooting episode 18/16 (depening on numering system). I suppose it's possible it's a reveal to a couple of characters and the audience only, and the other characters (and their actors) don't find out immediatelly after that, but why so sure?

[genji2000]

Doesn't surprise me to be honest. A clean 10/10 split is more sensible.


Because Episode 11 had been filmed before the writers' strike began last fall, Moore’s episode is the first episode that the “Battlestar” staff will shoot when the show resumes production in Vancouver.

Yeah, RDM's episode is the first to shoot, not the first to air.

All we do know is, Ron's episode *is* the reveal.

Again, how do you know this?

[genji2000]

Do we "know"? Or only guess?

Because it's curious that Juliani says he still doesn't know while they're shooting episode 18/16 (depening on numering system). I suppose it's possible it's a reveal to a couple of characters and the audience only, and the other characters (and their actors) don't find out immediatelly after that, but why so sure?

If Juliani's not spinning a yarn then I'm quite happy. Dragging it out until almost the final episode is an irritation, but as long as it's not given away cheaply in a preview that's good news.

[mdwturner]

Apparently, the Hybrid in Razor is Daniel Graystone, father of the cylons. And this is some sort of clue to the identify of the final cylon .....

http://www.syfyportal.com/news425091.html

[Jason1975]

Apparently, the Hybrid in Razor is Daniel Graystone, father of the cylons. And this is some sort of clue to the identify of the final cylon .....

http://www.syfyportal.com/news425091.html

Actually that fits my Theory about the last Cylon nicely, if it is true. I do not know how accurate syfyportal is though, so I taking it with a grain of salt. :)

My theory for the final cylon is this. I think Zoe Greystone is the final cylon in the form of Anastasia Dualla. It is the only way that Dualla would need redemption since Zoe was the one that created the way that memories and DNA can be downloaded to a computer.

[genji2000]

Actually that fits my Theory about the last Cylon nicely, if it is true. I do not know how accurate syfyportal is though, so I taking it with a grain of salt. :)

My theory for the final cylon is this. I think Zoe Greystone is the final cylon in the form of Anastasia Dualla. It is the only way that Dualla would need redemption since Zoe was the one that created the way that memories and DNA can be downloaded to a computer.

Despite the fact that Dualla's a Sagittaron and Zoe Graystone's the daughter of a rich Caprican businessman?

Daniel Graystone (as far as we know) was the one who created the way that memories and DNA can be downloaded to a computer, didn't he? Please correct me if his daughter was involved in any way in his work before she was killed by terrorists.

[Jason1975]

Despite the fact that Dualla's a Sagittaron and Zoe Graystone's the daughter of a rich Caprican businessman?


There are two two reason to say that Dualla's a Sagittaron. the First reason is that she is a sleeper agent and is programmed to wake up at a different time than the watchtower four, which is the reason why she did not go to the gym when the other discovered they were cylons. Second, it would be the perfect cover story to say that Dualla is a Sagittaron. It probably would be the hardest to verify stories from.

Daniel Graystone (as far as we know) was the one who created the way that memories and DNA can be downloaded to a computer, didn't he? Please correct me if his daughter was involved in any way in his work before she was killed by terrorists.

No Zoe developed it. Zoe downloaded her memory and DNA into the computer before she thought that she was going to go away with her boyfriend, Ben Stark. Who also downloaded his memories and DNA on a computer. However, Zoe did not realize that Ben would become a suicide bomber. Then Daniel Graystone discovered the Zoe Avatar, which gave Daniel they way to develop the cylons.

[redwards95]

I'm not believing anything the cast, writers, directors, and producer say about the final cylon until I see it confirmed on my television screen in an episode of the show.

[brokedown77]

Daniel Graystone (as far as we know) was the one who created the way that memories and DNA can be downloaded to a computer, didn't he?

A current rumor (here (http://www.syfyportal.com/news425091.html)) has Daniel Graystone's remains being the original Hybrid seen in Razor.

[genji2000]

A current rumor (here (http://www.syfyportal.com/news425091.html)) has Daniel Graystone's remains being the original Hybrid seen in Razor.

That's what started this conversation: http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=16418&postcount=92

[brokedown77]

drat's, I should have scrolled up farther

[genji2000]

drat's, I should have scrolled up farther

You were just too darned excited, weren't you?

[Wouter]

A problem with this being a possible clue for the final Cylon (through Zoe Graystone): what about the references to the 13th tribe? About the apparent age of the 5 final Cylons, we seem to get hints they are way older than the Centurions from the first war? One or the other may be misdirection then, because if they are from the 13th tribe, or otherwise very old, then Graystone had nothing to do with their creation.

[mdwturner]

A problem with this being a possible clue for the final Cylon (through Zoe Graystone): what about the references to the 13th tribe? About the apparent age of the 5 final Cylons, we seem to get hints they are way older than the Centurions from the first war? One or the other may be misdirection then, because if they are from the 13th tribe, or otherwise very old, then Graystone had nothing to do with their creation.

Perhaps the Graystones somehow found virtual versions of the Final Five, who were from the 13th tribe/Earth ... and downloaded them into cylon bodies. Maybe the mysterious religious sect (from the Caprica pilot) had the Final Five in cold storage all along, and used the Graystones to resurrect their ancient priests, who travelled back from Earth to the colonies. Just wild speculation I guess .....

[Jason1975]

Here is another thought I had and it is long one too. What if the Final Five and maybe the Significant Seven purpose was not to completely destroy the human race but to uproot them and move the survivors to Earth. So the Cylons wants themselves and the fleet to reach earth. This would explain how Caprica Six and Boomer could change the minds of the Cylons from destroying them. Why Gina used the nuke to send a message that reached Cylons. There can be even a case why Boomer shot Adama.

So lets look at the Watchtower Four and see how they tried to keep the fleet moving towards Earth before they realize they were cylons.

Tigh:


Tried to help rig an Election for Roslin that would have kept the fleet from going to New Caprica. Also, This would have prevented the break in search for earth.
Helped shaped the events for Roslin to escape the Galactica and to go to Kobol.
Leader and charter member of the resistance on New Caprica.


Tyrol:


Leader and charter member of the resistance on New Caprica.
Discovered the Temple of Five and pointed what the Eye of Jupiter was.


Tory:


Tried to help rig an Election for Roslin that would have kept the fleet from going to New Caprica. Also, It would have prevented the break in search for earth
member of the resistance on New Caprica.


Anders:


Leader and charter member of the resistance on New Caprica.
shot Geata that made Starbuck realize not to risk the Demetrius but to take a Raptor instead.


Now lets see some of the candidates for the last cylon and see how they tried to keep the Fleet moving to Earth or if they tried to prevent the voyage to earth.

Zarek:


con - He was Baltar running mate and suggested to colonize on New Caprica.
pro - helped lee and Roslin to go to Kobol.

Geata:


con - Probably voted for Baltar and was his cheif of staff
pro - the inside informant for the resistance.
pro - helped guide the fleet closer to earth in season 3
con - one of the people leading the mutiny on Demetrius

Dualla:


pro - persuaded Commander Adama to put the fleet back together in season 2 which led to the finding of the Tomb of Athena.
pro - Tried to help rig an Election for Roslin that would have kept the fleet from going to New Caprica. Also, It would have prevented the break in search for earth
pro - tried to persuade Lee to go on looking for Earth without rescuing the people on New Caprica. It would have worked if Lee did not want to save his father

Lee:


con - wanted to keep looking for starbuck in season 1.
con - ultimately, rescued his father in Exodus part II.
pro - Helped Laura escape from Galactica in the Episode of "Resistance" and led them to go to Earth.


Roslin:


She wanted to find earth when she believed that she was the dying leader, so really there is no cons here and it would be long list of Pros.

William Adama:


pro - did bring up the idea of going to earth even though is was just a carrot for get the moral up.
con - rescued the people on new caprica. He initially wanted to use all the military assets for the rescue.
con - wanted to keep looking for Starbuck in season one when she was on the moon.

Starbuck:


pro - getting the Arrow of Apollo.
con - wanted to rescue Anders from Caprica.
pro - the whole Demetrius and her feeling of earth.

Baltar:


con - his election has president that led to the settlement of New Caprica
pro - did give the nuke to gina
pro - helped the uprooting of the colonization of the 12 colonies

Cottle:


I have nothing pro or con.

Helo:


con - even though he might have been justified in it, He did relieve Starbuck of command that could have prevented the fleet to find lead to Earth.

So basically, I do not think that Cylons can go against there nature. So you would count out anybody with any cons. Since we do not see Cottle anything but a Doctor and not part of the story otherwise, I am going to eliminate him. With this theory, there are only two suspects for the last cylon, Roslin and Dualla.

[brokedown77]

You were just too darned excited, weren't you?

Yeah. That plus I only have limited windows of time during the day to check here and post

[Wouter]

Dualla:


pro - persuaded Commander Adama to put the fleet back together in season 2 which led to the finding of the Tomb of Athena.
pro - Tried to help rig an Election for Roslin that would have kept the fleet from going to New Caprica. Also, It would have prevented the break in search for earth
pro - tried to persuade Lee to go on looking for Earth without rescuing the people on New Caprica. It would have worked if Lee did not want to save his father
The last could also be seen as a con - she wants Lee to abandon the known 4 Cylons, and the humans with them. What Lee and her have with them, may not be enough for whatever purposes the Cylons have to get a group of humans to Earth.

[Jason1975]

[/list]
The last could also be seen as a con - she wants Lee to abandon the known 4 Cylons, and the humans with them. What Lee and her have with them, may not be enough for whatever purposes the Cylons have to get a group of humans to Earth.

They had around 2000-3000 people left and the exodus from New Caprica was far from certain. So I do consider it pro, that Dee still try to get part of the fleet to earth.

[ThPrime]

Apparently, the Hybrid in Razor is Daniel Graystone, father of the cylons. And this is some sort of clue to the identify of the final cylon .....

http://www.syfyportal.com/news425091.html (http://www.syfyportal.com/news425091.html)

Actually that fits my Theory about the last Cylon nicely, if it is true. I do not know how accurate syfyportal is though, so I taking it with a grain of salt. :)

When Michael reprints another journalist's spoilers, he's open to getting burned. There's no way to double check someone else's source, unless there's a supporting confirmation through his own.

When Michael directly quotes an "anonymous source" this is one of the person or persons unknown inside of or near productions he has developed long term working relationships with. These are always correct. The sources do have some manner of firsthand knowledge. I can't recall a SyFy Portal exclusive that was outright wrong from the last several years.

Assume Daniel Graystone eventually becoming Razor's Hybrid does exist on a draft Caprica script. As always, subject to radical change or removal before broadcast. I don't see how this ties-in directly to a future BSG episode though.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

It's not going to really matter, at least in relation to the final ten. It'll matter to Caprica, though, should it ever go to series.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Lee:


con - wanted to keep looking for starbuck in season 1.
con - ultimately, rescued his father in Exodus part II.
pro - Helped Laura escape from Galactica in the Episode of "Resistance" and led them to go to Earth.



A few more for the score:


pro - attempts to persuade Adama to abandon the people on New Caprica, thus advocating the search for Earth
pro(ish) - happens to be the one that comes across Kara Thrace in the nebula
unknown - destroys Pegasus
pro - argues for and devises a way to weaponize the virus they come across in the Lion's Head Nebula, which would have removed the threat of the Cylons, and thus allowed them to search for Earth unimpeded
con - is responsible for Zarek being recognized in the Fleet, which leads to Zarek pushing behind Baltar... and we all know how that went

[Chappers]

I have another problem with Lee being the final cylon how do you explain his relationship with his supposed Father? It would take some incredible writing to explain how Adama hasn't realised his son is in fact the Cylon God.

[genji2000]

I have another problem with Lee being the final cylon how do you explain his relationship with his supposed Father? It would take some incredible writing to explain how Adama hasn't realised his son is in fact the Cylon God.

How has the final Cylon suddenly mutated into the Cylon god?

[Jason1975]

A few more for the score:


pro - attempts to persuade Adama to abandon the people on New Caprica, thus advocating the search for Earth
pro(ish) - happens to be the one that comes across Kara Thrace in the nebula
unknown - destroys Pegasus
pro - argues for and devises a way to weaponize the virus they come across in the Lion's Head Nebula, which would have removed the threat of the Cylons, and thus allowed them to search for Earth unimpeded
con - is responsible for Zarek being recognized in the Fleet, which leads to Zarek pushing behind Baltar... and we all know how that went



I like some of those. With the con, it still goes against the idea the the final five cylons are trying to keep the fleet moving to earth and the cylon can not go against that idea.

[redwards95]

I'm pretty skeptical of this idea that the final five are doing anything meaningful yet. They're all (except perhaps Torry) still coming to terms with the fact that they are cylons. If Tyrol was trying to help the fleet get to earth, why would he have forced Adama into demoting him? If Tigh was trying to help the fleet to get to earth, why would have tried to talk Adama out of handing over control of Galactica? I don't think they will begin acting on their programming until the fifth is revealed. It is a mistake to assume that the final five were created for benelovent reasons to help humanity. It seems more likely they were created to bring about the destruction of humanity like the other seven. It's how they react when they discover their purpose that will be interesting since along the way they and other cylons have evolved to have free will that allows them to act contrary to their programming.

[genji2000]

It is a mistake to assume that the final five were created for benelovent reasons to help humanity.

I think you're right about that.

It seems more likely they were created to bring about the destruction of humanity like the other seven.

I can't gainsay that, although I'm not convinced it's right. I reckon the Five are only concerned with maintaining the cycle of time and now is a critical time in the cycle, with the humans reduced to less than 50,000 and the Cylons (presumably) about to made mortal and potentially also reduced in numbers. The Five have to ensure there is somebody left to begin again - whether that's Cylons, humans or a mix I'm not sure about, although the emphasis put on Hera's heritage indicates to me that that is her purpose. I'm still banking on one of each Cylon model becoming the twelve Lords of Kobol (although that's chiefly to ensure Athena survives).

[XenonRexroth]

This is pretty much way out there but the more i think about it the more appealing it seems. Galactica as the fifth cylon. I'm not sticking by this theory but at some points it seems plausible . It would also be the only final reveal that would really make me go Holy Frak.

[genji2000]

I'm not sticking by this theory

Good idea. :)

[redwards95]

This is pretty much way out there but the more i think about it the more appealing it seems. Galactica as the fifth cylon. I'm not sticking by this theory but at some points it seems plausible . It would also be the only final reveal that would really make me go Holy Frak.

The cylon models are all human in appearance. The final cylon is not going to be Galactica, Starbuck's viper, the hybrid, Joseph Adama's lighter, or anything other than a human character.

[Xenon242]

Implying any of the minor characters (I'm looking at you, Dualla) really borders on the absurd for me. Never mind the obvious lack of emotional involvement in those characters, much less any sort of serious, believeable character development, it really smacks of being a huge joke. Consider this, from the final episode of Black Adder II, in which Hugh Laurie plays a German master of disguise, who also happens to be angling for the British throne:




Blackadder: Yes, well, enough of this banter. Who the hell are you, sausage breath?

Ludwig: You do not remember me then, Herr Blackadder?

Blackadder: I don't believe I had the pleasure.

Ludwig: Oh, on the contrary. We have met many times, although you knew me by another name. Do you recall a mysterious black marketeer and smuggler called Otto with whom you used to dine and plot and play the biscuit game at the Old Pizzle in Dover?

Blackadder: My God!

Ludwig: Yes! I was the waitress.

Blackadder: (shocked) I don't believe it! *You*? Big Sally?

Ludwig: (falsetto) `Will you have another piece of pie, My Lord?'

Blackadder: ...but I went to bed with you, didn't I?

Ludwig: For my country, I am willing to make any sacrifice.

Blackadder: Yes, but I'm not! I must have been paralytic!

Ludwig: Indeed you were, Mr. Floppy...



And, also:




Ludwig: Lord Melchett, we meet again.

Melchett: No, I don't think we've had the pleasure...

Ludwig: You do not recognise me, then?

Melchett: No...

Ludwig: Let me refresh your memory. You remember when you were in Cornwall; at the monastery, there was an old shepherd with whom you used to talk.

Melchett: Good Lord! Dimkins?

Ludwig: Yes! I was one of his sheep.

Melchett: One of his sheep? Not...?

Ludwig: Yes!

Melchett: Flossy?

Ludwig: Yes!

Melchett: But didn't we...?

Ludwig: Yes, Lord Melchett! BAA-AAA-AAAH!

Melchett: Oh my God!


It's a bit of an extreme example, I suppose, but that's precisely the feeling that the idea that Cottle, Dualla or any other of the minor characters leaves me with when someone attaches 'final Cylon' to their name. Simply wouldn't work.

[genji2000]

It's a bit of an extreme example, I suppose, but that's precisely the feeling that the idea that Cottle, Dualla or any other of the minor characters leaves me with when someone attaches 'final Cylon' to their name. Simply wouldn't work.

I dunno... the fifth still in shadow and all that... might be someone dressed in a Jake costume.

[Wouter]

It's how they react when they discover their purpose that will be interesting since along the way they and other cylons have evolved to have free will that allows them to act contrary to their programming.
Their programming is what they are - it doesn't make sense, IMO, to say they can act against it, per se. Just like a human can't really act against his nature (which doesn't mean always acting the same, though). However, they do have free will. They can make choices and Cylons do make those choices, just like humans.

Terms like "fighting programming" and "acting contrary to their programming" are better left for when we're talking about sleeper agents with nasty hidden programming that turns them into zombies doing somebody elses bidding. Boomer tried to fight that (and lost, in the end). However, all the other Cylons so far seem to be in control of their actions. Their programming is what makes them what they are (and why an 8 is generally much like another 8, unless they have experiences very different things), but that doesn't mean they can't act freely. None of the Cylons was programmed to destroy the colonies, I think (especially not if they are made by colonial programmers, which is certainly the case for the original Centurions). They came up with that of their own, by free will.

[XenonRexroth]

The cylon models are all human in appearance. The final cylon is not going to be Galactica, Starbuck's viper, the hybrid, Joseph Adama's lighter, or anything other than a human character.

I was aware of that. though i was just more or less making an example that every possible final cylon sucks after Tighs' reveal in my opinion. Frak i would actually rather have Adama's lighter be the fifth than Dualla :lol:. Now thats not to say that if explored a bit from different points of view ( notice the word as instead of is) That it holds up no merit. But it's one of a million possibility's floating around in the jumble Frak called my imagination. I was having trouble putting down my theory (more a vocal conversationalist) thus the "Vader killed your father" type of word play. Will try to explain better in next post.

[The Dirt]

They've finally revealed it in the Last Supper photo:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/dmatrixone/FinalSupper.jpg

That explains the chalice - it's filled with motor oil.

[Jason1975]

This how I got to the conclusion on who, I think the final cylon is. I am not going use evidence that can be open to interpretation unless you think the interviewee or the character is lying or wrong. However, I believe that everyone is telling the truth and has some piece of the puzzle.

In the Frak Party Q&A Podcast of season three, RDM said that Admiral Adama and/or Roslin being cylons would cheapen the show.

This podcast happened after He figured out who the final five cylons are. I take this to mean Admiral Adama and Roslin are out of the running for being the last cylon.

Here are three Ronald D Moore interviews:

Here is an article from TV Guide (http://www.tvguide.com/news/080404-01):
Eleven Cylons now have been revealed, so who is the 12th and final Cylon? Contrary to fan speculation, Moore swears it isn’t one of the show’s primary humans. Not Starbuck or President Roslin. Not Admiral Adama (Edward James Olmos) or his son, Lee (Jamie Bamber). Or even the ever-dubious, Cylon-shagging Gaius Baltar (James Callis). “Even if you guess correctly, it’s still just a guess,” Moore says. “There’s no way anyone can figure it out without knowing exactly where we’re going with the final season.”

EW Last Supper RDM Interview: (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/1,,20169703,00.html)
Someone is indeed absent from the table, admits Moore: “We have not yet revealed the final [unknown] Cylon.” Does that mean the people already at the table aren’t the final Cylon? Moore laughs. “You ferreted that out pretty slyly. I didn’t really want to give that away.” Also here another RDM interview with the Chicago Tribune’s the Watcher: (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/04/ron-moore-on-ba.html)
MR: You have to know that the EW “Last Supper” (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20169703,00.html) photo of the Season 4 cast has been analyzed to death. RDM: I know. As soon as they said that’s what they wanted to do, I said, “Oh, that’s genius.” I was on the phone, “Let’s put him here, her here,” I spun out all these things. It was a lot of fun.
MR: Just so I understand what I think you told EW for the story that went with the photo, none of the people in that photo is the final Cylon, right?
RDM: Yeah. I said that. I probably shouldn’t have said that [laughs] but I have said that. So, yeah [that is the case, the final Cylon is not any of the people in the photo].

I know that the last supper picture has been analyzed to death. I laugh when people try to transpose right side of the picture on the left side of the picture and say that it is a clue. However, the clue is what Ronald D Moore said about the picture that the final cylon is not in the picture. Many people do not believe him. I do believe that Ronald D Moore would play with the viewer. However, I do not believe that he would outright lie to us. That means that Lee, Starbuck, Baltar, and Helo cannot be the last cylon. It also adds to why Admiral Adama and Roslin are not the last cylon.

So that leaves Gaeta, Dualla, Cally and Boomer. I left out Doc Cottle, Seelix, Racetrack and others because they have not been central characters to the storylines. Sure some might be easy on the eyes like Racetrak or very entertaining like Doc Cottle but they have not been one of the central characters in any storylines. Gaeta, Dualla and Boomer have been.


Here is a quote from one of the writes

Here is from Battlestar Wiki Humaniod Speculation webpage: (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Humanoid_Cylon_speculation#_note-0)
Bradley Thompson was asked when the writers knew the identity of the final five:"Four of the five were recent. If memory serves, the fifth (which may change) we've been kicking around since about the end of Season One."

Well all four characters have been on the show since the beginning. I only bring this up because they easily could have known who the final cylon is in season one.

Then I listened to the podcast to for “Final Cut” in season two. Ron Moore said that he looked up ancient Greek names on the internet for Gaeta and Dualla for this show. Dualla first name is Anastasia which means resurrection. Even though you could use that for evidence, I will not going use as a smoking gun. That means Cally, Boomer and Gaeta are still suspects but Dualla is my prime suspect.

In season 4, Here is what Caprica Six and Natalie says:

Here is from Battlestar Wiki “He that Believeth in Me” webpage: (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/He_That_Believeth_In_Me)
Roslin visits Caprica Six in the brig. Roslin discusses the shared dream they experienced in the Opera House, where Caprica saw more than she did. Roslin asks Caprica to help her with information regarding the Cylons known as the Final Five, since she wants to know if Kara Thrace is one of them. Caprica replies that they are programmed not to think of the Five, but notes that they are close since she can feel them.

In “Guess What’s Coming to Dinner?” Natalie talking to Adama and Roslin said this:
The Final Five are in your Fleet.

So Boomer is out since Boomer was not in the colonial fleet at the time of the Ionian Nebula. That leaves Dualla, Cally and Gaeta.

Here is from Battlestar Wiki “Revelations” webpage: (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/He_That_Believeth_In_Me)
In the basestar control room, Roslin, William Adama, D'Anna Biers and Leoben discuss the plans to return the Final Five. Biers mentions that there are only four in the Fleet and refuses to provide answers when Roslin questions her about the fifth's location. When Adama asks for their names, she expresses skepticism, suggesting that the Colonials may kill them. Roslin points out that the Colonials need them because they know the way to Earth, while Leoben recommends co-operation and D'Anna refutes him, citing the failure of co-operation on New Caprica.

That leaves Cally. However, that would mean bringing back the actress that played her. However, that would also cheapen Starbuck comeback. So I am not going to say Cally being the last cylon. That would seem that no one is the last cylon.

Then I read about Caprica here (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Caprica_%28series%29):
It should be kept in mind that, while this information comes from reliable sources, the series is still in pre-production, and details - such as names, events and character backgrounds - may change until it is shot and aired.
Caprica will take place more than fifty years before the events of the Re-imagined Series. It will follow the lives of two families, the Graystones and the Adams (the family of William Adama). When the series begins, a startling development is about to occur - the creation of the first cybernetic life-form node or "Cylon".
The Graystone family includes the father Daniel and mother Amanda, a computer scientist and surgeon respectively. When their daughter Zoe dies due to the religious fanaticism of her boyfriend, Ben Stark, her father manages to resurrect her - after a fashion. Already having Zoe-A, a digital clone of her personality, he uses stolen technology to create a robotic version of his daughter, known as Zoe-R, the first step towards creating the Cylon race.
The same terrorist attack claimed the lives of Joseph Adama's wife and daughter, Tamara. Together with Daniel Graystone he works on bringing back their children, but is appalled at his partner's methods and ethics. However, as a result of this tragedy, he grows closer to his 9-year old son, William Adama.

Here something about Zoe: (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Zoe_Graystone)
Before her death, Zoe found a way to upload her memories and DNA into a hologram, thus creating an online avatar of herself, Zoe-A. After the suicide bombing, the avatar is left behind and discovered by her father.

If was not for Zoe, Daniel Greystone would not have the tools to create the cylons. How in the world could Zoe be able to upload her memories and DNA into a hologram? That seems very complicated thing to do.

After that, I thought about the purpose of the final five are. With the opera house and baltar’s speech, What if the final five’s purpose is to transfer memories and soul from one body to the next. With the opera house, you have a Roslin, who is dying, and then you have Hera, a yound child. I believe that Roslin and Hera as a connection to each other. So, Zoe would fit perfectly in transfer the soul and memory from body to another. That is why I believe that Zoe is the Last Cylon. Zoe started the whole cylons mess and also she played god. That is why Zoe needs to be redeemed.


Zoe is who D’Anna sees in her vision about the final five and D'Anna knows who Zoe is and is not in the colonial fleet. Zoe is died long in suicide bombing by her boyfriend but she did leave her avatar, Zoe-A, behind that has all her memories and DNA. I believe that Zoe-A went with the cylons when the left the 12 colonies. That maybe is the reason why cylons have a monotheist belief. Then Zoe-A transfer her memories and soul into the seventh humanoid model, Anastasia Dualla and erases all everything about the seventh model. When the watchtower four heard the song, Dualla could not hear it since she did not have the DNA to hear the song. Tory, Tigh, Anders, and Tyrol did. Like I said before, Zoe started the whole cylons mess with the 12 colonies and also she played god. That is why Zoe is longing to be redeemed. That is how I got my theory Dualla is the last cylon and is Zoe resurrected.

I

[genji2000]

I am not going use evidence that can be open to interpretation unless you think the interviewee or the character is lying or wrong. However, I believe that everyone is telling the truth and has some piece of the puzzle.

Jason, I think that's your mistake. You don't know who knows what, specifically in relation to what certain copies of certain models 'think' they know or can 'feel'. Without knowing the identities of the Final Five they can only speculate and more than likely consider the Final Five as a single mass. Only D'Anna, who knows their identities, can deduce how many are in the colonial fleet (she said four, by the way).

We've had the Zoe solution, and if that works for you then that's great, but you can't include lines of dialogue that support your idea if you're going to ignore more substantial lines simply because they don't.

If it is Zoe I won't be watching Caprica and I'll turn off BSG completely because it will have become merely a commercial for RDM's next enterprise.

[Jason1975]

Jason, I think that's your mistake. You don't know who knows what, specifically in relation to what certain copies of certain models 'think' they know or can 'feel'. Without knowing the identities of the Final Five they can only speculate and more than likely consider the Final Five as a single mass. Only D'Anna, who knows their identities, can deduce how many are in the colonial fleet (she said four, by the way).

We've had the Zoe solution, and if that works for you then that's great, but you can't include lines of dialogue that support your idea if you're going to ignore more substantial lines simply because they don't.

Everything I gave has evidence from the show the character spoke it to another character or interview with writers and developers of the show. All if it. What Caprica Six said to Roslin in He that Beleiveth in Me. To Natalie saying that the final five are in your fleet in Guess What Coming to Dinner. This not just their thought and feelings, it what they said. Only thing I am saying with Caprica Six is that the final five cylons are close and Boomer is not close to Six at that time.


Tell me, what other dialog tells about the final five or the final cylon?

[genji2000]

Everything I gave has evidence from the show the character spoke it to another character or interview with writers and developers of the show. All if it. What Caprica Six said to Roslin in He that Beleiveth in Me. To Natalie saying that the final five are in your fleet in Guess What Coming to Dinner. This not just their thought and feelings, it what they said. Only thing I am saying with Caprica Six is that the final five cylons are close and Boomer is not close to Six at that time.


Tell me, what other dialog tells about the final five?

D'Anna's about the four. Only D'Anna can count them individually because only she knows their identities.

If you use Natalie's "the five are in the fleet" to exclude Boomer, how does that include Zoe? How was Zoe in the fleet at the nebula? Not because of some Buddhist reincarnation as Hera, surely? When has Hera (or Zoe) been to Earth?

I need to watch the Tigh/Caprica Six episodes again. Can you (or anyone) confirm that's likely that Caprica Six knew Tigh was a F5 when she was shagging him? Because if you can't then her (and Natalie's) assertions that they know or feel that the Final Five are in the fleet are out of the window.

[Jason1975]

D'Anna's about the four. Only D'Anna can count them individually because only she knows their identities.

If you use Natalie's "the five are in the fleet" to exclude Boomer, how does that include Zoe? How was Zoe in the fleet at the nebula? Not because of some Buddhist reincarnation as Hera, surely? When has Hera (or Zoe) been to Earth?

I need to watch the Tigh/Caprica Six episodes again. Can you (or anyone) confirm that's likely that Caprica Six knew Tigh was a F5 when she was shagging him? Because if you can't then her (and Natalie's) assertions that they know or feel that the Final Five are in the fleet are out of the window.

I did include what D'Anna said in Revelations. I believe that D'Anna knows how the cylons were created. that is how she knows about Zoe

Dualla is Zoe resurrected and the seventh humaniod model. Zoe's Avatar went with the cylons when cylons left the 12 colonies the first time. Zoe then resurrected in the seventh humaniod model and erased it from the cylon computers or marked it has a failure.

Caprica six knew that the final five was close not their identity.

[Xenon242]

I need to watch the Tigh/Caprica Six episodes again. Can you (or anyone) confirm that's likely that Caprica Six knew Tigh was a F5 when she was shagging him? Because if you can't then her (and Natalie's) assertions that they know or feel that the Final Five are in the fleet are out of the window.

I can only assume so based on her interest in Saul Tigh and the expression on her face the more times he popped round for a quickie. There was some recognition, sure of it.

[Wouter]

Caprica-6 and her "feeling" could easily come from the visions of the opera house - she did see the five there, and they were close!

As for Natalie's "the five are in your fleet", how would she know? She based this on two things, it would seem:
-the raiders turning back in the nebula
-the hybrid saying a number of things, including "they will not harm their own".
Natalie correctly concluded that the raiders refused to harm their own, the final five, th