The answer is where we least expect it

[timbo]

Surprise surprise dudes, I have another crackpot idea that I suspect might even be right.

I have just watched the episode Sacrifice in the rewatch thinking why have they done this? It seemed so out of place first time round that this time my suspicions were aroused. I have faith now that they have not wasted one second with this show. I think that every episode has had a purpose, and I think that this seemingly "out of kilter" episode is the one that has all the answers. I started to think, "what is the purpose of this episode, what is its nature? To show that civilians who have lost loved ones can be angry with the military / government for using the enemy for intel. A whole episode for this? I don´t think so. I think the point here is Sharon. In her own words (and they make a big point of saying this) "how many times have I saved the fleet? Saved you? Five, more?" They are at war, and in that chinese book "The art of war" it says that a good spy is worth a thousand soldiers, or something like that, and I think the cylons, realising the damage that Sharon is doing to them, dedicated three or four cylon models to killing or capturing her. My point - That woman played by Dana Delaney is a cylon.
Her objective was the death or capture of Sharon because she is the fleets best defense against them. This episode was not about grief, it was about spycatching. Sharon is not a spy in the normal sense, but as a cylon helping the humans, she is a massive asset. If you think this is daft, watch the episode again with this in mind and see if it resonates. Next bombshell - Ellen Tigh is also a cylon. She was there trying to get Adama to give Sharon up to the terrorists. When you put that together with her miraculous appearance and her betrayal of the resistence, it is pretty conclusive. When they said that all the clues are there for us, they were telling the truth. Next Bombshell - Billy was there too. Guess what, I think he´s a cylon too. Not for what he did in this episode, but I just think that contract stuff was a trick. I always thought he would be back. When he proposed to Dee, it was a loaded moment. The first time I saw it I thought there was more to it than we realised, and now I think she said no because ....NEXT BOMBSHELL...... she is a cylon too. She said "There is no other way to say this. I can´t marry you". I was waiting for her to say "I don´t love you" or something, but she didn´t, she said I can´t marry you. Why? Because her cylon mission was to marry Lee or some such thing. She is probably activated, but Billy was a sleeper or one of the Earth cylons.

I am totally convinced now that "The Watchtower Four" are either not cylons, or they are the final five of a different set of cylons from Earth. The bird in the bath said something about ".......... will lead you to the home of the five", not the "final five". This guy Ron Moore is a frakking genius. He really does have millions of fans barking up the wrong tree.
There really are twelve models. I think that probably in this cycle of "all this has happened.................etc." five of the twelve will probably survive again, and be the "GOOD CYLONS / LORDS OF KOBOL in the next cycle. I think that in the end, it will be Man´s creation, the cylons who save us. We create them to serve, but somehow they end up saving us. We create them in our likeness - a mix of good and bad, they then turn on us, but the best five of the thousands of models in existence (twelve models multiplied by however many copies there are) overcome their baser instincts and through personal effort, reach for something higher, and save humanity in the next cycle.

If this is right, it is perfect. It is the perfect story.

So c´mon Genji, Dirt and the rest of you guys, get on board with this and we can enjoy the fun together. If it is right, we can tell the world that we really did break in to the BSG set and find the answer in "The Heist".

This is really weird, but I think that maybe what is happening here is this stuff only comes to me if I am willing to share it with you guys. Its a spiritual law that you have got to give something away if you want to keep it. Anyway, it is really late and my head is spinning, so Buenas Noches.

[GoldWolf]

So you're saying that Sesha Abinell, Ellen, Billy, and Dee are really cylons? And Tory, Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders are (maybe) not?

Who's the 5th, then?

[genji2000]

I think it's a great idea for an episode and it's a pity the Writers didn't think of it. The "bird in the bath" called them "the Five", as in the established Five. She definitely meant the Final Five, unless the Writers are going to go into some spiel about Natalie and Starbuck misinterpreting the Hybrid's words. The S7 have always been dismissive of the Eight model, thinking it "weak", which is why they weren't overly concerned about Athena going to live amongst the humans, and didn't launch an all-out op to recover the asset. It would have been a good idea to have Sesha as an assassin, though.

[13th_Cylon]

So you're saying that Sesha Abinell, Ellen, Billy, and Dee are really cylons? And Tory, Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders are (maybe) not?

Who's the 5th, then?


...well thats easy....its laura..........

[Prolescum]

...well thats easy....its laura..........
Yeh, Roslin is the older Sharon and Ellen Tigh is the older '6', Saul is the older Doral, Tyrol is the left-handed Cavil, Anders is the shallow Leoben and Tori is the female Simon...

[TAZ-99]

I really really want an aspirin.

The answer lies in the reality that the writers are waiting for one of these fan sites to come up with a theory that doesn't cause a riot and then they will steel it.

:lol::lol::lol:

I can accept that the 5 came from earth and helped create the other 7 - maybe because they wanted 12 to emulate the mythos around the colonial religions.

But I won't accept any twist that requires more than 11 hours to elaborate on while still answering all the other questions we have about why?

At this point I care less about who the cylons are or are not and rather want to know why all the visions and prophecies etc...what were they thinking...not - oh you just have to interpret it your own way - I want to know what the guy that wrote it was going for...

I won't get it - but that is what I want. ;););)

:thumbsup:

[Bruce]

Final cylon is that shit blonde kid that Boomer picked up in the miniseries.

[genji2000]

Final cylon is that shit blonde kid that Boomer picked up in the miniseries.

I think the actor who portrayed him would qualify as a day player.

[The Dirt]

How old is that kid now? 18, 19?

[13th_Cylon]

look guys...how irritating it is for someone to keep saying its Laura Roslin......but hey what other choice do we have?

Gaeta....he's gay and i'll never watch BSG or Caprica again.

Duella....oh come on......she is a sagiteran caprican wannabe...like one of those poor kids that hangs around the rich kids....if shes the FC then again im out.

Baltar.....gee man thats just to obvious and not very creative.....again no more BSG for me.

Ellen......shes a cheap whore........alot of retconning to make her worth being the FC........again out.

Boomer......well the only way would be if there is a Number 7 who is identical to Number 8........and we were seeing her all the time......

Lee .... he is gay also......him and Gayeta should both move to Massachusetts and play bummie chummies.

Starbuck ..... her mood swings are so irritating....she needs some PMS tablets.....if she was the FF i would turn off the show immediately.

Doc Cottle....he is a stupid old bastard. Good hair though. But again no way could i accept him as FF ....major retconning to make that happen.

Adama Sr.........no way...if he is...then we have been played for fools.

Cally....yeah sure.........i'll really will want to watch BSG after 6 frakking months of waiting only to find out that our FC is cally.

Billy....he is gay...Dualla was just a cover for his gayness...Billy should move in with bum chums Lee and Gayeta and get a nice Cape Cod house overlooking the water.

Kat......who?

Tom Zarek.......we'll i'd admit that i could handle that...coz he is kind of cool...(no im not gay).....and i would prob still watch BSG but i just cant see it.

Oh yeah forgot about Karl....he is just SO uninteresting....................zzz zzz zzz zzz zz


So that just leaves Laura....the one that "somehow" got to be president....just happened to be on the Galactica at the time of the attack....has been directing the fleet to "earth". AND...is the only character that will top Tigh as being a cylon....the only character that will absolutley send Adama Sr crazy more so than when he found out that Tigh was.

Its Laura....or its bust....

Amen

[genji2000]

...Doc Cottle... Good hair though...
Tom Zarek.......we'll i'd admit that i could handle that...coz he is kind of cool...(no im not gay)

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[The Dirt]

Touche! That was a pretty homophobic post. My cubits (har har har) are on Starbuck's dad or Jake the dog.

[TAZ-99]

No one ever suggests President Adar.

When Roslin made contact it was never stated that Adars body was found. He was just presumed dead.

But if their govt is remotely close to ours...the Real Colonial One escaped the attacks and in much the way the Pegasus just happened to bump into the cylons {on the idea that the cylons were tailing the fleet and the Pegasus was tailing the cylons - make zero sense if the point was to reclaim the colonies why follow the cylon fleet into deep space? But I digress}

We know that Baltar was good buddies with Adar and we know that Adama thought Adar was a twit.

Makes me think that if the signal coming from Earth is not from Starbucks original ejection seat before being resurrected and sent back to the fleet - then its very likely that signal is coming from the original Colonial One and if Adar is the final Cylon then they are gonna find him.

I also think that the previews for the 4.5 are a ruse to throw us off - they will find Kara's other body and assume she is the final cylon...but they will be wrong...she is different...something else entirely.

The poster above that will boycott the show if its anyone but Laura might seek counseling and remember its just a tv show and not real.:lol::p ;)

Anyway...I would love the final to be Adama Sr and have Lee and Zach be products of their mothers fooling around.

Primarily because he has been a great leader, he has severe mental issues surrounding the cylons and all his flashbacks would either be implanted or misinterpreted by his gooey silica pathways...

But I won't rule out anyone or be remotely disappointed as long as the why questions are answered.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[timbo]

Listen up guys, this one is important.

First off, there is not really a final cylon. I have just read some of the posts before this, and I think that maybe, if your view is "if the final cylon is ....., I will never ......" , you are failing the test and missing a great opportunity. Forget the final cylon stuff for a moment and open your selves to the possibility that our whole way of looking at this has been wrong. It is not a Sherlock Holmes Whodunnit, where we have to guess the killer. The show is about Man´s right to survive, his relationship with god and his understanding of himself. So think about it. It was never going to be a simple case of believing all the red herring clues and identifying the final cylon. The whole concept of there being a final cylon is itself a red herring. And again, if you think that without a "final cylon" to satisfy you, the show loses credibility, then you really have failed the test. Dont get mad at me, just think about for a time. I think we have here a phenomenon of a shows content transcending its original aim, breaking out of its place as TV entertainment and making the jump to our collective psyche. The leaps of faith that the characters in the show make are somehow presented to the audience to make as well. Please don´t just dismiss this without reflecting on it for a moment.
I caught a glimpse of how the story will unfold, and it was beautiful. There really are twelve models that are pretty much the same. The ones we don´t know yet will probably be Ellen Tigh, Billy, Dee, Dana Delaney (Sesha) and Kendra Shaw. I think Dee turned down Billy´s proposal because they are already married. They were a cylon couple before all of this started. Remember Billy´s kiss from Dee. This is probably what they mean by us going to want to revisit the beginning. That was a wife or girlfriend spontaneously kissing her lover. The problem is that Dee is activated and Billy is a sleeper and doesn´t know. It is perfect. If you don´t believe me, please watch again that scene where Dee sees Billy and just kisses him instinctively. In that kiss alone, that one moment, there is all the evidence you will need. Please, Just watch it.

The other five are the "final" five from the last cycle. What I mean is that, at the end of this story that we are watching, there will be five individual cylons who, because of the love recieved and decisions they made and maybe just through striving for something higher, will help the humans to survive. And maybe help the cylons too. These five will survive and grow to be the Guardians /Guides / Lords of Kobol / Prophets or whatever word you want to use in the next cycle. The Five that we have are left from the last cycle. Maybe next time it wont be five, it doesnt matter. But the ones from our story who survive to the next will probably be Sharon Agathon, the Leoben who loves Kara, Billy, Dee and one other. AND all of this still leaves us with the question "who is the final cylon, not of the twelve models, but of the survivors from a previous race of cylons, who are now higher beings maybe?" But I hope by now you see that it really doesn´t matter.

Guys, we have come a long way together, and I am asking you to make a leap of faith with me about a show that is about people making leaps of faith.

Oh, I almost forgot. I think Adama knows all of this and has done from the beginning. I think he has the same receiver as me maybe and picks up on stuff without knowing why. I also think he will be one of the few survivors. He is something special One of the great characters of fiction.

Right here on this forum, something really cool is going on. Don´t miss the chance to be part of it.

[TAZ-99]

Listen up guys, this one is important.

First off, there is not really a final cylon. I have just read some of the posts before this, and I think that maybe, if your view is "if the final cylon is ....., I will never ......" , you are failing the test and missing a great opportunity. Forget the final cylon stuff for a moment and open your selves to the possibility that our whole way of looking at this has been wrong. It is not a Sherlock Holmes Whodunnit, where we have to guess the killer. The show is about Man´s right to survive, his relationship with god and his understanding of himself. So think about it. It was never going to be a simple case of believing all the red herring clues and identifying the final cylon. The whole concept of there being a final cylon is itself a red herring. And again, if you think that without a "final cylon" to satisfy you, the show loses credibility, then you really have failed the test. Dont get mad at me, just think about for a time. I think we have here a phenomenon of a shows content transcending its original aim, breaking out of its place as TV entertainment and making the jump to our collective psyche. The leaps of faith that the characters in the show make are somehow presented to the audience to make as well. Please don´t just dismiss this without reflecting on it for a moment.
I caught a glimpse of how the story will unfold, and it was beautiful. There really are twelve models that are pretty much the same. The ones we don´t know yet will probably be Ellen Tigh, Billy, Dee, Dana Delaney (Sesha) and Kendra Shaw. I think Dee turned down Billy´s proposal because they are already married. They were a cylon couple before all of this started. Remember Billy´s kiss from Dee. That was a wife or girlfriend spontaneously kissing her lover. The problem is that Dee is activated and Billy is a sleeper and doesn´t know. It is perfect.

The other five are the "final" five from the last cycle. What I mean is that, at the end of this story that we are watching, there will be five individual cylons who, because of the love recieved and decisions they made and maybe just through striving for something higher, will help the humans to survive. And maybe help the cylons too. These five will survive and grow to be the Guardians /Guides / Lords of Kobol / Prophets or whatever word you want to use in the next cycle. The Five that we have are left from the last cycle. Maybe next time it wont be five, it doesnt matter. But the ones from our story who survive to the next will probably be Sharon Agathon, the Leoben who loves Kara, Billy, Dee and one other. AND all of this still leaves us with the question "who is the final cylon, not of the twelve models, but of the survivors from a previous race of cylons, who are now higher beings maybe?"

Guys, we have come a long way together, and I am asking you to make a leap of faith with me about a show that is about people making leaps of faith.


So are you saying that we the viewers are the Final Cylon?

LMAO!!

Great post though...huge cop out by the writers if its true. We need closure -- we need a body.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[13th_Cylon]

Touche! That was a pretty homophobic post. My cubits (har har har) are on Starbuck's dad or Jake the dog.


The poster above that will boycott the show if its anyone but Laura might seek counseling and remember its just a tv show and not real.:lol::p ;)


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:



...well i can see that u both are in touch with your feminine side...http://www.battlestarforum.com/images/battlestar/icons/icon10.gif do u both like water views?

[timbo]

So are you saying that we the viewers are the Final Cylon?

LMAO!!

Great post though...huge cop out by the writers if its true. We need closure -- we need a body.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Taz my friend, go back and read it again really carefully. Then read your own post again just after it.

What is it gonna take?

Really, what do I have to say? I know that all of you have a conception of BSG that is cracking and splitting at the seams. Let it come down, and let something infinitely more beautiful stand in its place.

Are you brave enough?

Buenas noches.

[The Dirt]

I think you bring up a good point. Why are there no gay Cylons? I mean Gina pretended to be one, but why not? I think the world is ready for that. Think of the reverberations? Even Cylons are gay! I like it.

Timbo, you truly are a pioneer of out of the box thinking. One could say that this is where you live. I like your concept and I love your enthusiasm. I'm in!

[Prolescum]

First off, there is... your view... the final cylon... way of looking at this has been wrong. It is not... guess the killer. The show is... the red herring... The whole concept... of a... "final cylon"... failed the test. Dont get mad at me, just think about for a time. I think we have here... its original aim... making the jump to our collective psyche. The leaps of faith that the characters in the show make are... a glimpse of how the story will unfold, and... There really are twelve models... spontaneously kissing ... It is perfect. If you don´t believe me, please watch again... there is all the evidence you will need. Please, Just watch it.

The other five are... individual cylons... striving for something higher... or whatever word you want to use... Maybe next time it wont be five, it doesnt matter. But the ones from our story ... leaves us with the question... who are now higher beings ...?"

Guys... I think Adama knows all of this and has done from the beginning. I think he has... stuff without knowing why. I also think he will be one of the few... great characters of fiction.

I agree.

[timbo]

I think you bring up a good point. Why are there not gay Cylons? I mean Gina pretended to be one, but why not? I think the world is ready for that. Think of the reverberations? Even Cylons are gay! I like it.

Timbo, you truly are a pioneer of out of the box thinking. One could say that this is where you live. I like your concept and I love your enthusiasm. I'm in!

Welcome aboard Dirt, my friend.

Now, Dirt has done it. He is the first. Who is next?

[The Dirt]

Clearly, Timbo has his role in this forum. I think he is an important person and who knows maybe he has still something to furfill that would change the lives of the forum posters.

[timbo]

Clearly, Timbo has his role in this forum. I think he is an important person and who knows maybe he has still something to furfill that would change the lives of the forum posters.

Fucking brilliant. Funniest thing I have ever seen, dude.

[TAZ-99]

...well i can see that u both are in touch with your feminine side...http://www.battlestarforum.com/images/battlestar/icons/icon10.gif do u both like water views?



Gosh I hope I am in touch with my feminine side...being female. :p

In fact nothing makes my husband happier than when I...oh never mind...:lol:

:thumbsup:

And Timbo I know what you are going for and that's all well and good but still a huge cop out if that is how they end it...do you work for the writers by chance? LOL ;)

;)

[GoldWolf]

Timbo, if we take it one step further... there is no final cylon... because they are ALL "fundamentally different" cylons. Every so-called human on BSG is the same kind of cylon as the three T's and Anders.

Am I on the right track here? I completely agree, a "final" cylon is pointless.

[13th_Cylon]

Gosh I hope I am in touch with my feminine side...being female. :p

In fact nothing makes my husband happier than when I...oh never mind...:lol:

:thumbsup:


;)


... ok so i look like a fool now....wouldnt be the first time.......

[TAZ-99]

... ok so i look like a fool now....wouldnt be the first time.......


Meh...honest mistake...not like the name Taz-99 screams female. :lol:

Does this help?

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/ajandpj99/99/8.29GreenClosecroppd.jpg

;)

[13th_Cylon]

kind of...but ive been caught so many times with an 80 year old dude on the other end pretending to be well......ok nevermind...back to the topic.....

[TAZ-99]

kind of...but ive been caught so many times with an 80 year old dude on the other end pretending to be well......ok nevermind...back to the topic.....


LMAO!!

What topic? ;)

Oh! As a firm believer in keeping things simple as good as I am at making them complex...I am still hoping for a specific body as the 12th and final cylon model as promised for all these years - otherwise I may boycott. :p

:thumbsup:

[Chiefchess]

I got a new crack-brained theory. What if the final cylon is one of us? Seriously, how do we know that the actor playing the final cylon (whoever he or she may be) is not pretending to be on of us BSG fanatics?

I know we all have profiles and stuff, but do we really know?

The final cylon could be one of us all along. He or she could be in the shadows, reading our posts, laughing to himself about how foolish we are.
Which means the final cylon now knows everything!

The final cylon could be Timbo, Genji2000, TAZ-99, GoldWolf, 13th_cylon, or anyone else who has ever read this post.

It could be YOU (you could be a sleeper cylon and not know it). It could be ME.

I'm going to be watching you all from now on in case I am right. Let the paranoia begin.:lol:

[TAZ-99]

I got a new crack-brained theory. What if the final cylon is one of us? Seriously, how do we know that the actor playing the final cylon (whoever he or she may be) is not pretending to be on of us BSG fanatics?

I know we all have profiles and stuff, but do we really know?

The final cylon could be one of us all along. He or she could be in the shadows, reading our posts, laughing to himself about how foolish we are.
Which means the final cylon now knows everything!

The final cylon could be Timbo, Genji2000, TAZ-99, GoldWolf, 13th_cylon, or anyone else who has ever read this post.

It could be YOU (you could be a sleeper cylon and not know it). It could be ME.

I'm going to be watching you all from now on in case I am right. Let the paranoia begin.:lol:



I think you may be on to something...

Let's look at the evidence...I have been known to stir the beez like Doral, to be seductive like Caprica, to be a joiner like Athena, to care about my fellow man like Tyrol, to be loyal like Tigh, to be manipulative like Leoben, to be bossy like Deanna, sarcastic like Cavil, a survivor like Anders...and while I have never killed anyone like Tory done experiements on them like Simon...its safe to say that Taz possesses almost all the necessary archetypes to be a cylon.

Huh. I guess that is that. Please don't turn me in...I had no idea. ;)

:lol::lol::lol:

[13th_Cylon]

I got a new crack-brained theory. What if the final cylon is one of us? Seriously, how do we know that the actor playing the final cylon (whoever he or she may be) is not pretending to be on of us BSG fanatics?


Well its not me....as i'm the 13th cylon...not the 12th.

[genji2000]

It is not a Sherlock Holmes Whodunnit, where we have to guess the killer...

'It' being the show, that's right. The identity of the Final Cylon is not the be-all and end-all of the show, although it is supposedly intrinsic to the resolution of the storyline.

'It' being the spot-the-Final Cylon game that the Writers themselves devised for our amusement and their own ends (to deflect attention from other elements of the show, or to whip up free promotion), then you're wrong - a Whodunnit is exactly what it is.

The show is about Man´s right to survive, his relationship with god and his understanding of himself.

Yes. That's what everyone's always said. We know. That was set out as early as the Miniseries.

So think about it. It was never going to be a simple case of believing all the red herring clues and identifying the final cylon. The whole concept of there being a final cylon is itself a red herring. And again, if you think that without a "final cylon" to satisfy you, the show loses credibility, then you really have failed the test.

I agree with this, as long as the test is to watch and enjoy a ripping good yarn. The unmasking of the Final Cylon is necessary to satisfy the story as told so far and the acres of print the producers and Writers have taken up telling us how organic the reveal will be, how it will be a significant character we've known since Season One, how it will be someone who has graced our screens before, etc. If there's no Final Cylon (e.g. to express that the search for the Final Cylon is more important than the revelation, like the journey is more important than the destination) then that will invalidate all the extraneous clues that have been given in interviews, and will come off as quite weak within the show because I don't believe individual characters have been shown in slavering pursuit of the Fifth - certainly not nearly as much as they have in the search for Earth (aaaghh! that's it! Earth is the Final Cylon, etc. I can just picture Tigh hugging the ground saying "you're the Fifth").

There really are twelve models that are pretty much the same. The ones we don´t know yet will probably be Ellen Tigh, Billy, Dee, Dana Delaney (Sesha) and Kendra Shaw... If you don´t believe me, please watch again that scene where Dee sees Billy and just kisses him instinctively. In that kiss alone, that one moment, there is all the evidence you will need. Please, Just watch it.

So, when they found Earth in Revelations, and Brasko kissed Figurski, which one of them is also a Cylon?

[timbo]

So are you saying that we the viewers are the Final Cylon?

NO

Great post though...huge cop out by the writers if its true. We need closure -- we need a body.:

Cop out? Think about it. If it is true then it is the exact opposite of a cop out. It means they had a clear, brave, fixed idea for the story from the very beginning, and have followed it through. They concieved a great story and made it. They didnt improvise as they went. Wouldn´t you rather it was like this. I would.

I am sitting here thinking about it and more and more bits are falling into place. Sort of like a y´know, one of those things where when one falls, everything else starts falling.

That Kiss at the beginning of the story is the key moment, the moment I think the writers are referring to when they say the end will make us revisit the beginning. We have the chance to do that now, before anyone else.

I just realised that the attack hadn´t even happened when Dee kissed Billy. She is a ranking officer on a Battlestar and she spontaneously kissed a civilian while on duty. Why? She and Billy were already an item. They are cylons. He a sleeper, and she activated. She was spontaneously kissing her boyfriend. Later she says "it was a mistake". She meant it because it jeopardised the mission. Her relationship with Lee was the most sexless, sparkless coupling I have ever seen on TV. Great acting. Dee was just doing her job - get close to Lee.

[TAZ-99]

Wouldn´t you rather it was like this. I would.


No.

:thumbsup:

[timbo]

Sorry dudes, I have been pretty heavy handed the last few days with my ideas.
I ´m goona cool it for a while, but please think about it a little.

Hasta luego amigos.

[genji2000]

Sorry dudes, I have been pretty heavy handed the last few days with my ideas.
I ´m goona cool it for a while, but please think about it a little.

Hasta luego amigos.

Yeah that's right. Drop a bombshell like this in everyone's laps and then piss off to the beach for the weekend. Typical. :)

[Major Murphy]

I agree with parts of your theory Timbo, especially concerning the kiss between Dualla and Billy. That has actually always seemed a little odd to me.

I'm not sure I'm on board with the hostage situation theory though. It seems if their agenda was really to remove Athena from the equation, they would have made further attempts. Maybe at some point they realize she isn't planning to reveal everything she knows. Athena never mentions to the colonials the hub, the final five, or even the identity of Cavil....

[TAZ-99]

Don't feel bad Timbo. I am not saying you are wrong or that its not possible...I am just saying that I would be EXTREMELY disappointed and would likely feel so CHEATED that I may just airlock myself. :lol:

As for the kiss between Dee and Billy...clearly none of you are female and none of you have ever been in a near death situation.

If my memory is correct...the kiss occurred after they had escaped Ragnar.

Dee knew Billy from when he wandered into the Head...he was cute and goofy. She was an officer, a military girl. Therefore confident and secure with herself.

She felt the same 'thank god it wasn't me' that most people feel when they escape a disaster, she saw a familiar face and with a shortage of non military men (that fraternization rule) her age that she had any familiarity with - she just kissed the first non-uniform, non-troll she happened upon.

If people weren't so twitchy and stand offish toward one another there would have been a lot of spontaneous kisses happening seven years ago post WTC tragedy...in fact, I would wager there were a lot that we just missed in the news.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I would not say it is not possible, I just wouldn't put so much weight on that kiss.

;)

I agree with parts of your theory Timbo, especially concerning the kiss between Dualla and Billy. That has actually always seemed a little odd to me.

I'm not sure I'm on board with the hostage situation theory though. It seems if their agenda was really to remove Athena from the equation, they would have made further attempts. Maybe at some point they realize she isn't planning to reveal everything she knows. Athena never mentions to the colonials the hub, the final five, or even the identity of Cavil....



It was actually Athena's unwillingness to reveal the remaining cylons in the fleet that initially prompted Adama to trust her. And she had told him at one point that while she would help them where she could, she wasn't going to just help them to destroy her people.

Of course that was in the beginning and its possible that Athena was merely trying to maintain her value to the fleet by only telling a bit at a time as needed. Otherwise - had she handed over all the other Cylons in the fleet, the hub and all that, what would they keep her around for?

After she was given her wings though...she had firmly chosen sides and even flew her raptor in the mission that would have risked her entire race if not for her husbands over zealous ethical nature. ;)

Anyway for the record I love Athena and hope they don't toss her off a cliff in the end like the first Athena in the prophecy. :D

:thumbsup:

[timbo]

I agree with parts of your theory Timbo, especially concerning the kiss between Dualla and Billy. That has actually always seemed a little odd to me.

I'm not sure I'm on board with the hostage situation theory though. It seems if their agenda was really to remove Athena from the equation, they would have made further attempts. Maybe at some point they realize she isn't planning to reveal everything she knows. Athena never mentions to the colonials the hub, the final five, or even the identity of Cavil....

I agree, but in the hostage episode they had Athena making two points really clear. 1. That she has saved the fleet five or more times, and 2. that she wouldnt betray the cylons given the chance. These weren´t filler lines, they were really pushed in our faces. You might be right though about it being just what it appeared to be - a revenge / grief thing. Billy and Dee though, I am sure about. They are cylons and are a couple already.

Do you realise that if you agree with me about Billy and Dee, then you are more or less accepting that there are 12 models and then 5 more? That the final cylon is not the final model, but the last of the Earth cylons from the last cycle?

Don't feel bad Timbo. I am not saying you are wrong or that its not possible...I am just saying that I would be EXTREMELY disappointed and would likely feel so CHEATED that I may just airlock myself. :lol:


Taz, I dont feel bad. Please dont be offended, but you spend more time talking about yourself and your blog, than you do talking about the show.

When you say you need a body, You sound exactly like Sesha the widow in the hostage episode.

[TAZ-99]

Taz, I dont feel bad. Please dont be offended, but you spend more time talking about yourself and your blog, than you do talking about the show.

When you say you need a body, You sound exactly like Sesha the widow in the hostage episode.


Not offended - considering that the bulk of my current blog is ABOUT THIS SHOW - at least the Commentaries - and please don't YOU be offended when I say that you are still not getting my vote for this theory.

But thanks for the insight - I will do my best to curb my enthusiasm when sharing my opinions about this show. Your thoughts have been noted.

[timbo]

Not offended - and please don't you be offended when I say that you are still wrong.

Good good, we are cool. If you really want your Website to take off, you should write about my ideas. You have my permission. You are gonna kick yourself one day if you don´t.

[genji2000]

If my memory is correct...the kiss occurred after they had escaped Ragnar.

It's not hugely important in terms of this discussion, but the kiss occurred when the civilian fleet hooked up with the Galactica at Ragnar Anchorage, during the time Adama and Leoben were trying to find a back way out after being trapped.

[timbo]

I agree.

Sorry Prol dude. I missed this. Welcome aboard.

[Prolescum]

Sorry Prole dude. I missed this. Welcome aboard.

Well I've spent my life looking for something to have faith in, it might as well be you.
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/129fs238648.gif

[timbo]

Well I've spent my life looking for something to have faith in, it might as well be you.
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/129fs238648.gif

I am flattered dude, but not me. I am not capable of generating these ideas. I am asking you to believe that something strange but wonderful is happening with wherever this stuff is coming from, me, you, us, the forum and the show, all together. It is a starting point, I think.

[Aurora]

I think Dee turned down Billy´s proposal because they are already married. They were a cylon couple before all of this started. Remember Billy´s kiss from Dee. This is probably what they mean by us going to want to revisit the beginning. That was a wife or girlfriend spontaneously kissing her lover. The problem is that Dee is activated and Billy is a sleeper and doesn´t know. It is perfect. If you don´t believe me, please watch again that scene where Dee sees Billy and just kisses him instinctively. In that kiss alone, that one moment, there is all the evidence you will need. Please, Just watch it.


The cylons of season 1 were not capable of such affection, I think. Hence the Athena/Helo experiment. They were put together because the cylons theorized that "love" was the missing element that was needed for conception. To me, this meant that they were unable to acheive this emotion on their own...they had not yet evolved that far. Therefore, Dee and Billy's kiss could not be the expression of that emotion if, in fact, they are cylons.

[Wouter]

The cylons of season 1 were not capable of such affection, I think.
Boomer was perfectly capable of affection - to Tyrol, to Boxey and co, to Helo,...
Athena is a season 1 Cylon, too, and she was capable.
Caprica-6 also seemed to have genuine feelings for Baltar, by the end (when it was too late, admittedly).

So clearly, season 1 Cylons were perfectly capable of loving other beings.

[Aurora]

Boomer was perfectly capable of affection - to Tyrol, to Boxey and co, to Helo,...
Athena is a season 1 Cylon, too, and she was capable.
Caprica-6 also seemed to have genuine feelings for Baltar, by the end (when it was too late, admittedly).

So clearly, season 1 Cylons were perfectly capable of loving other beings.

Then why the Athena/Helo experiment? If Cylons were capable of loving one another, why did they need to do that?

[genji2000]

The cylons of season 1 were not capable of such affection, I think.Boomer was perfectly capable of affection - to Tyrol, to Boxey and co, to Helo,...
Athena is a season 1 Cylon, too, and she was capable.
Caprica-6 also seemed to have genuine feelings for Baltar, by the end (when it was too late, admittedly).

So clearly, season 1 Cylons were perfectly capable of loving other beings.

Bear in mind that Aurora went on to describe "such affection":

... they were unable to acheive this emotion on their own...they had not yet evolved that far. Therefore, Dee and Billy's kiss could not be the expression of that emotion if, in fact, they are cylons.

- in response to Timbo saying two Cylon copies were a couple in Season One. We didn't see any evidence that a S7 copy could love another S7 copy, and were told by Caprica Sharon and Helo that they couldn't in The Farm.

[timbo]

Just thought of something else. At the beginning of season 4, Roslyn says to someone "what you call the final five". Can anyone one remember who she said it too? Anyway, this line started me thinking that really, the final five is a human concept (really its a fan forum concept), I dont think the cylons think of themselves this way. It is much more likely that the cylons would think of the last five of the last cycle, who would now be highly evolved cylons of a different race completely. The awe in which they hold these final five and the fact that that they are forbidden to think about them fits much better this idea, than it does five of their own twelve models.
Why hasn´t there been a post beginning "ok, lets suppose there are twelve models and five higher being cylons from the last cycle, what would that mean ..............?" at least exploring the possibility. A forum is not just to show our own ideas, it is to compare all the ideas to find the truth.

[Wouter]

Then why the Athena/Helo experiment? If Cylons were capable of loving one another, why did they need to do that?
Because they couldn't get children. That they couldn't get that because they don't really "love" each other is a Cylon theory. Cylons aren't always right - and it sounds rather silly, doesn't it? In real life, "love" has nothing to do with getting children (int he biological sense)- even rapes (about the opposite of "true love") can lead to pregnancy.

And on the other hand, a lesbian couple (like Natalie and the Barolay-6 in BSG) can love each other all they want, they are not going to get children (not without external help, at least).

And yeah, the Cylons I named seemed clearly capable of loving someone. Why they can't or couldn't procreate is another question.

[genji2000]

Just thought of something else. At the beginning of season 4, Roslyn says to someone "what you call the final five". Can anyone one remember who she said it too? Anyway, this line started me thinking that really, the final five is a human concept (really its a fan forum concept), I dont think the cylons think of themselves this way. It is much more likely that the cylons would think of the last five of the last cycle, who would now be highly evolved cylons of a different race completely. The awe in which they hold these final five and the fact that that they are forbidden to think about them fits much better this idea, than it does five of their own twelve models.
Why hasn´t there been a post beginning "ok, lets suppose there are twelve models and five higher being cylons from the last cycle, what would that mean ..............?" at least exploring the possibility. A forum is not just to show our own ideas, it is to compare all the ideas to find the truth.

(Galactica Brig: Caprica Six's Cell)

Roslin: I don't know why I'm here... Yes I do. I'm here because of the things that we've shared and the things that we've seen

Caprica: The visions in the Opera House.

Roslin: You went inside, you saw more than I did. I thought that maybe you could help me.

Caprica: Help you how?

Roslin: I need to know about the other five. The types we've never seen. The ones that Baltar calls the Final Five.

Caprica: And you want to know if Kara Thrace is one of them.

Roslin: Yes.

Caprica: I've been programmed never to think about them.

Roslin: Well, your programming isn't working, because you're thinking about them right now.

Caprica: I try not to.

Roslin: Trying not to is thinking about them. How do you rationalize that?

(Caprica stands up, stricken; the Marines push in on them.)

Roslin: All right, no. Back off. Don't leave, back off.

Caprica: The Five are close.

Roslin: What?

Caprica: I can feel them.

Is this what you mean? Anyway, no. D'Anna first comes up with the concept of the Final Five, and afterwards it becomes standard nomenclature (word of the day) amongst the Significant Seven. The Final Five = the last five of the twelve Cylon models, but how that is derivated (e.g. the last five surviving members of a lost tribe) I don't know.

[Wouter]

Just thought of something else. At the beginning of season 4, Roslyn says to someone "what you call the final five". Can anyone one remember who she said it too? Anyway, this line started me thinking that really, the final five is a human concept (really its a fan forum concept), I dont think the cylons think of themselves this way. It is much more likely that the cylons would think of the last five of the last cycle, who would now be highly evolved cylons of a different race completely. The awe in which they hold these final five and the fact that that they are forbidden to think about them fits much better this idea, than it does five of their own twelve models.

The term 'final five' was coined by Baltar, but the Cylons took it over even among themselves, much like they suddenly started to speak about Sharons and D'Anna's and Leoben's. The Cavil in "Rapture" told D'Anna: "and look upon the faces of the final five ... that's forbidden!". It was also used a lot in early S4, when the Cylons were debating among themselves.

[timbo]

Because they couldn't get children. That they couldn't get that because they don't really "love" each other is a Cylon theory. Cylons aren't always right - and it sounds rather silly, doesn't it? In real life, "love" has nothing to do with getting children (int he biological sense)- even rapes (about the opposite of "true love") can lead to pregnancy.

And on the other hand, a lesbian couple (like Natalie and the Barolay-6 in BSG) can love each other all they want, they are not going to get children (not without external help, at least).

And yeah, the Cylons I named seemed clearly capable of loving someone. Why they can't or couldn't procreate is another question.

Thanks Wouter.

[genji2000]

Thanks Wouter.

Do we have a titty lip smiley?

...a lesbian couple (like Natalie and the Barolay-6 in BSG)

Lesbian? Really? I never got that. I thought the kiss was like sisters kissing. Lesbians? Really?

And yeah, the Cylons I named seemed clearly capable of loving someone. Why they can't or couldn't procreate is another question.

Someone, but not another S7, which was Aurora's point.

[Wouter]

Lesbian? Really? I never got that. I thought the kiss was like sisters kissing. Lesbians? Really?
That was the impression I got. Not sisterly love...

[genji2000]

That was the impression I got. Not sisterly love...

:lol: I can't answer that really.

[timbo]

That was the impression I got. Not sisterly love...

Me too. Definitely full saphic rug-munching.

[genji2000]

Me too. Definitely full saphic rug-munching.

My god. Am I so naive that I just saw it as sisterly solidarity? Was Natalie really fucking that Six? What is "saphic"?

[The Dirt]

Wouldn't that be Cylon incest? I think it would be safe to assume that the Cylon God would hate that.

[genji2000]

Wouldn't that be Cylon incest? I think it would be safe to assume that the Cylon God would hate that.

Yeah, lolz and all that but WTF? Is it really meant to be a homosexual kiss? I totally had it down as a Christly kiss, like "you must go now, my love". I'm stunned by this.

[Wouter]

The Cylon God moves in mysterious ways. And remember, God is Love!

[genji2000]

Yeah, the God that dare not speak its name.

[The Dirt]

I was under the impression that it was more like the kiss of death. Natalie knew that she was going to kill her, and, come on, when did the Cylons NOT act like the mafia? Genji, I'm with you on this one buddy. The other ones are just subconsciously projecting their own fantasies.

[Aurora]

Someone, but not another S7, which was Aurora's point.


Thanks, Genji. :thumbsup:

[Wouter]

"I'm glad it's you..."

And then "BANG!"

Ah, Cylons....

[genji2000]

"I'm glad it's you..."

And then "BANG!"

Ah, Cylons....

Her leader, you mean? The Six who took control over all the Eights and Twos and gave the Sixes the confidence to believe in themselves?

[Wouter]

Her leader, you mean? The Six who took control over all the Eights and Twos and gave the Sixes the confidence to believe in themselves?
No, it was clear from the scene that the Barolay-6 and Natalie knew each other very well. They talked a lot about what had happened on New Caprica, that's clear from their conversation.

And that kiss - I don't see sisters doing that. :)

I think it's a really chilling scene, by the way. Cylon mentality is still spooky.

[genji2000]

No, it was clear from the scene that the Barolay-6 and Natalie knew each other very well. They talked a lot about what had happened on New Caprica, that's clear from their conversation.

And that kiss - I don't see sisters doing that. :)

I think it's a really chilling scene, by the way. Cylon mentality is still spooky.

So, what you're saying is that Natalie happily (I didn't notice a great deal of remorse, just resignation) executed her lover in order to prove a point to Kara?

"I know, I remember. After you downloaded, we tried to work through this..."

Sounds more like an assigned counsellor to me. I think that Six saw Natalie as a guide, a counsellor and a leader. "I know, I remember" are not the words of an intimate lover. She's talking about something that was discussed sometime in the past and which she has had little cause to revisit since.

[timbo]

you are getting bogged down in the details. I am sure cylons can have feelings for each other. Has anyone seen the hostage episode since I proposed this idea by the way?

[genji2000]

I'm not saying it's impossible for Natalie and Barolay Six to have had a relationship at this stage of the show (vs. Season One Cylons) and Wouter's reading of the dialogue is attractive, I'm just saying it went straight over my head and I want to be sure it's realistic. Why would they have this relationship between the two characters as backstory (or did the actors get together and work out the backstory between them?) - to show that S7 Cylons can love each other, or is it just about sex? Does this relationship (if it's real) show that the S7, or at least the rebels, have progressed since Season One, or does it compromise the argument that they couldn't find love amongst themselves? Why do it with lesbians? Why not have a Two and a Six (or would that risk having to answer why they hadn't conceived)? Why don't we see same-sex relationships amongst the Eights or the Twos (or, just to put this image in your mind, the Ones)? Why have the three gay Cylons all been Sixes?

I think it has a significant bearing on the Dee-Billy non-relationship and it needs to be explored. We were specifically told S7 couldn't have feelings for each other, and this is why they couldn't procreate.

[Bruce]

in my experience it always means something when chicks kiss. unless it's the 'gay until graduation' uni types you get in rock clubs.

6+6=12... hang on.... haaaaaang on....

Six on Six action = THE TWELFTH! The final cylon with two backs! Awesome (and just as feasible as any other theory on this board)!

[Major Murphy]

Do you realise that if you agree with me about Billy and Dee, then you are more or less accepting that there are 12 models and then 5 more? That the final cylon is not the final model, but the last of the Earth cylons from the last cycle?

Obviously I'm not exactly sure how they are going to go about explaining it, but I do agree that somehow there is more than one Cylon yet to be revealed. IMHO, there's no way Starbuck isn't in some way a Cylon. I know she is in the last supper photo, and she is clearly in the fleet at the time of Diana's comment, but she has already resurrected for frak's sake! Yet as has been stated before many times, it would seem too obvious/anti-climatic for her to be the final final, so there must be some clever explination for how she can be a cylon and yet not the final.

I like the 12+5 theory because for the most part it allows for current facts to be true, while still leaving some more closet cylon outings. The Watchtower four revelation and events following left me somewhat disappointed, as I was hoping to have to smack my forhead and say "I should have known it all along!" But with the four, there was no foreshadowing whatsoever.

I need to go watch Sacrafice again this evening. Honestly it has been a good long while since I have seen it. During my last series rewatch I skipped a few episodes, mostly the "stand-alone" episodes such as Sacrafice, partially because I figured they were less likely to reveal clues and partially because they tend to be boring, tending to not progress the epic very far. Anyway I commend you for looking so hard for clues, especially in the less than obvious episodes.

[The Dirt]

Regarding Kara and resurrection - the jury is still out. I was re-watching Maelstrom the other day, and I noticed something interesting. Shortly before Kara's viper explodes, you can see that she has her hand right next to the ejection lever. For a second, you're made to think that she's about to eject. However, instead we get the whole Lee screaming and Kara's "I'll see you on the other side" stuff. When the viper explodes, the canopy is still in place, however, we've had some fakeouts before (ie KLG1 Kara/Lee vs Kara/Baltar sex scene),

I think it's plausible that a minor retcon will happen to explain that she ejected, got picked up by the Heavy Raider (it's important to notice how this was not a regular Raider), and it jumped away. It's also important to notice that the existence of the Heavy Raider is not definitively ruled out, just made to seem likely that Kara mimagined it.

Back to Six-on-Six action. Why would a Six be in love with herself? If someone cloned you (and you happened to be homosexual and rather attractive), would you really, honestly fall in love with yourself? That's just trite. I mean, come on?! This was just another example of how the Cylons need physical contact before they die (remember the dying 8 and Anders in the following ep?), Natalie, realizing that Bar-Six is mentally damaged, was just comforting her before putting a hot lead one in her skull.

[Major Murphy]

Regarding Kara and resurrection - the jury is still out
Very true, I shouldn't yet state it as fact yet; although that would be several unlikely coincidence if they explained it as you suggested they could...

If someone cloned you (and you happened to be homosexual and rather attractive), would you really, honestly fall in love with yourself?
I'm sure many people would. It would be the ultimate form of narcissism. :lol:

[Prolescum]

If someone cloned you (and you happened to be homosexual and rather attractive), would you really, honestly fall in love with yourself? That's just trite. I mean, come on?!
I have a mate who realised he was gay when he started fancying himself, all manner of mirror jokes came up but I shan't repeat them.

I get the impression that the writers are leading to everybody having to question who they are, Cylon and Human, and the reveal of the FFF, (first F is a swear), will serve only to exasperate the characters on both sides after the final let down that was Earth as they won't have a clue what to do when they're given the facts. Except Adama Sr, but by that point the mob will rule.

[timbo]

Obviously I'm not exactly sure how they are going to go about explaining it, but I do agree that somehow there is more than one Cylon yet to be revealed.

I like the 12+5 theory because for the most part it allows for current facts to be true, while still leaving some more closet cylon outings.

I need to go watch Sacrafice again this evening. Honestly it has been a good long while since I have seen it. During my last series rewatch I skipped a few episodes, mostly the "stand-alone" episodes such as Sacrafice, partially because I figured they were less likely to reveal clues and partially because they tend to be boring, tending to not progress the epic very far. Anyway I commend you for looking so hard for clues, especially in the less than obvious episodes.

Major Murphy, this is great. I have been hoping for people to at least be willing to explore the idea of 12 + 5. It is probably the only idea that really allows for current facts to be true. Dirt and Prol are also trying to follow the road less travelled. The trickle could become a flood.

[The Dirt]

Where Timbo leads, we follow. Let the trickling begin!

[Prolescum]

Where Timbo leads, we dribble...
Surely.
No?
Oh.
Sorry.

[GoldWolf]

After comparing Timbo's theory to the multitude of other theories posted here, I have to say I agree. 12 + 5 makes more sense than anything else.

*joins the dribblers*

[Chiefchess]

If Timbo is correct, then that means that there are six more cylons out there!
OK, fess up people. How many of you posters are cylons in disquise?:lol:
To the humans out there, if there are six cylons left, who are they in the show?
Finally, my thoughts on why the S7 can't breed with one another. The best way I can describe this is by comparing the the S7 cylons and the humans with the moon and the sun. Sounds corny, but bare with me.
The sun (humans) gives off light (and thus life) on its own. The moon (S7 cylons), on the other hand, cannot give off light on its own. Any light the moon gives off is reflected by the sun. Therefore, the S7 cylons can only reproduce with humans and not themselves.
Where do the F5 cylons fit in? Somehow they have "eclipsed" to where they are more human than cylon. They, like the humans, are able to reproduce with each other and the S7.
That's my theory anyway. Any thought from the "hidden" cylons out there?:thumbsup:

[timbo]

If Timbo is correct, then that means that there are six more cylons out there!

I think this is probably right. We have 7 of the twleve models, and 4 of the Previous cycle Earth cylons. This is just guessing, but I think the last five of the 12 will be Billy, Dee, Sesha, Ellen and maybe that guy who wanted to kill Adama on Kobol, Zareks mate. I think there will still be a final cylon, but not of the twelve models. It will be the last of the Other race of cylons. Maybe Helo.


OK, fess up people. How many of you posters are cylons in disquise?:lol:
To the humans out there, if there are six cylons left, who are they in the show?
Finally, my thoughts on why the S7 can't breed with one another. The best way I can describe this is by comparing the the S7 cylons and the humans with the moon and the sun. Sounds corny, but bare with me.
The sun (humans) gives off light (and thus life) on its own. The moon (S7 cylons), on the other hand, cannot give off light on its own. Any light the moon gives off is reflected by the sun. Therefore, the S7 cylons can only reproduce with humans and not themselves.
Where do the F5 cylons fit in? Somehow they have "eclipsed" to where they are more human than cylon. They, like the humans, are able to reproduce with each other and the S7.
That's my theory anyway. Any thought from the "hidden" cylons out there?:thumbsup:

I love your sun and moon stuff.

[timbo]

A message to my fellow tricklers. 12 + 5 is just a beginning. I dont think this should be about me, it should be about us. The idea has sprouted. Now you guys have to develop and take it further. If you share the idea, then it is OUR theory. The best ideas on the forum have usually been a joint effort, with someone having the seed of an idea and others developing it.

My name is Timbo, and I think there are 17 cylons.

[timbo]

I have just been reading that thread on the names of the gods. It si interesting. The link to the wiki also has some other info on the mythology. There is a bit called paradise lost about The gods, who I believe were cylons who had helped bring peace, and humanity living in paradise, until one god (cylon) wanted to be worshipped above all others. I think this will be our final cylon. He is one of the cylons from the last cycle, but probably went over to the dark side and is now helping the new cylons to destroy everyone - old cylons and humanity.

[Prolescum]

He is one of the cylons from the last cycle, but probably went over to the dark side and is now helping the new cylons to destroy everyone - old cylons and humanity.
I think you're teetering on the very edge of the truth, my friend. This is actually very close to my own gut feelings about the final Cylon and its role; difference with me is....
Dum Dum Dum...





He's a she. (not a new idea, I know)

[genji2000]

He's a she. (not a new idea, I know)

Ah, a secret 13th_Cylon acolyte, I see.

[westie]

Oh my god, I just discovered the 6 on 6 discussion. Not that I'm an expert or anything, but I completely did not take it as a sexual kiss at all. We know from RDM that the 'Six' model represents the sensual, physical aspect of humanity. That, *in my opinion* (obvs) was as genji said, a reaching out to a friend, a sister. Men!

Now Barolay herself is another matter....

[genji2000]

Oh my god, I just discovered the 6 on 6 discussion. Not that I'm an expert or anything, but I completely did not take it as a sexual kiss at all. We know from RDM that the 'Six' model represents the sensual, physical aspect of humanity. That, *in my opinion* (obvs) was as genji said, a reaching out to a friend, a sister. Men!

Now Barolay herself is another matter....

I feel totally vindicated.

Men!

[westie]

I feel totally vindicated.
I'm glad you put such faith in me :D

Btw, just as a friendly warning, saying things like this:
Men!
doesn't make you sound straighter....

[genji2000]

What was this thread about again?

[westie]

Thats right, you change the subject.
As far as I could gather, the thread was about whether Natalie and Barolay-Six were sapphos. And some Timbo stuff that I didn't really understand.

Sorry, Timb, doing my best!

[genji2000]

Thats right, you change the subject.
As far as I could gather, the thread was about whether Natalie and Barolay-Six were sapphos. And some Timbo stuff that I didn't really understand.

Sorry, Timb, doing my best!

What the hell is a sappho? Timbo used that word.

er...

Right. wikipedia says she was a poet who came from Lesbos...

I think I get it.

You're not supposed to understand Timbo stuff. It's deliberate. I think we'll understand it when the series has finished. I'm not sure how long after the series finishes though.

[Prolescum]

Ah, a secret 13th_Cylon acolyte, I see.
He he.
No.

Adama and Thrace,
Roslin and Gaius Baltar
are not Cylons. K?

:p

[westie]

I'm not sure how long after the series finishes though.

I can see it now: me in a nursing home, wheelchair bound, incontinent, suddenly screaming "Timbo, I see the light! All is forgiven! You are the messiah, God's instrument!"
"Yes, westie, now take your meds, dear".

Apparently, the inhabitants of Lesbos, known collectively as 'Lesbians', have commenced legal proceedings to copyright the term, as they are fed up with outsiders thinking 'un-christian' things of them. True fact. Well... it was in my morning paper one day.

[genji2000]

he he.
No.


:p

本当にありがとう

I can see it now: me in a nursing home, wheelchair bound, incontinent, suddenly screaming "Timbo, I see the light! All is forgiven! You are the messiah, God's instrument!"

God's tool, more like.

[Prolescum]

本当にありがとう
Much appreciated. Assuming you're not taking the jazz.

[The Dirt]

What the hell is Timbo going to do when the show is over?

[genji2000]

What the hell is Timbo going to do when the show is over?

That's a good point. We can hardly release him back into the wild. Maybe Caprica will come up with the goods? Otherwise we're all going to have to hang around here doing a rewatch every six months.

[13th_Cylon]

Just a quick drop in .....

If 6's wants to kiss each other then that will be all above board, bonafide, very appropriate, Cylonic art and good for ratings.

However........

If Cavils decide to start a session of heavy petting then i don't care if the final cylon is the Queen of England......i'm moving to a quiet farm in Sagittaron to continue plotting the destruction of the BSG team for the pychological trauma that would cause me.

13th

[timbo]

I'm glad you put such faith in me :D

Btw, just as a friendly warning, saying things like this:

doesn't make you sound straighter....


Nice one Westie. Careful Genji, she´s on to you.

[GoldWolf]

I have just been reading that thread on the names of the gods. It si interesting. The link to the wiki also has some other info on the mythology. There is a bit called paradise lost about The gods, who I believe were cylons who had helped bring peace, and humanity living in paradise, until one god (cylon) wanted to be worshipped above all others. I think this will be our final cylon. He is one of the cylons from the last cycle, but probably went over to the dark side and is now helping the new cylons to destroy everyone - old cylons and humanity.

YES!!! Although this cylon god did not necessarily go over to the dark side.

If we go with the cycle bit, I seem to recall an Earth God who was a vengeful god, who was furious with the downfall and evil of mankind... and who brought a great flood upon the Earth, and only one man (and his family) was able to survive (along with all the animals two by two...)

Perhaps this cylon god was also a wrathful god like the Earth one, who brought upon the Colonies a great devastation... etc.

[13th_Cylon]

YES!!! Although this cylon god did not necessarily go over to the dark side.

If we go with the cycle bit, I seem to recall an Earth God who was a vengeful god, who was furious with the downfall and evil of mankind... and who brought a great flood upon the Earth, and only one man (and his family) was able to survive (along with all the animals two by two...)

Perhaps this cylon god was also a wrathful god like the Earth one, who brought upon the Colonies a great devastation... etc.


Goldwolf try saying that again but say it was islams allah and not imply the Christian God, then add a very cute cartoon of him and say what country you are from. Yeah go on try that.

[GoldWolf]

Goldwolf try saying that again but say it was islams allah and not imply the Christian God, then add a very cute cartoon of him and say what country you are from. Yeah go on try that.

Naw, 13th, I'll leave that to you.

[13th_Cylon]

It's easy to say offensive words to Christians because they usually don't fight back and so you can be a coward and get away with it. But say somthing to offend factions such as muslems or gays then you are made out as a criminal.

(ie the homophobic reponse posts in relation to me calling Gayeta and Lee homos and the laughter thats posted when one posts in offence to Christians)

mmm.....might be somthing in this with BSG.......could the Cylons treat Humans in the same way most people treat Christians? With utter disregard and disgust??? Could the hatred be so great that they want to kill all humanity??? Are comments by humans against Cyloninitys one god belief so offensive to them (Cylons) that they react like moslems when a cartoon is posted of allah?????


interesting.

[genji2000]

I think this is veering seriously off-topic now.

[timbo]

YES!!! Although this cylon god did not necessarily go over to the dark side.

If we go with the cycle bit, I seem to recall an Earth God who was a vengeful god, who was furious with the downfall and evil of mankind... and who brought a great flood upon the Earth, and only one man (and his family) was able to survive (along with all the animals two by two...)

Perhaps this cylon god was also a wrathful god like the Earth one, who brought upon the Colonies a great devastation... etc.

Yeah, I have had that thought often. Nutty Noah and Niggly nellie.

........."KNIT US A NEW PLANET, NELLIE!".

[13th_Cylon]

So....what actually was the topic of this thread?

[timbo]

So....what actually was the topic of this thread?

So what? Do you mean what do I think about your theories? I like the general idea, but I think that the final cylon of the Earth cylons will have fallen because of more human temptations. Low self esteem probably. This seemingly trifling shortcoming seems to cause more damage than all the others put together. I think the last needed to be worshipped above the others to fill some sort of hole in his soul. And his followers will be like-minded people. And there will be no shortage of them.

I haven´t really seen that hatred of christians that you are talking about. People are usually indifferent or a little scornful, but hatred, no. I think often groups, especially religious groups need to percieve that they are persecuted because it helps to establish the identity and unity of the group. People who believe they have no place to belong are often drawn to these groups, because in the absence of any real sense of identity, people will give themselves to anything that they can feel part of. This has more to do with politics than God, I think.

[genji2000]

So....what actually was the topic of this thread?

lol. It (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=27048&postcount=1) has meandered.

[timbo]

The thread is aboot The episode "sacrifice", a seemingly filler episode being really full of clues.
I think Sesha is a cylon. A hit-woman. The episode was aboot killing Sharon (the human´s best asset) rather than grief. Look at how she shot Boomer´s dead body just to make sure. Even her brother-in-law looked at her like that was a weird thing to do.
...........All of which helped strengthen my conviction that there are 12 normal cylon models, and then 5 higher being cylons from the last cycle, the last of whom will perhaps be the force behind the cylon attack and attempted destruction of the colonials.

There you go. In a few sentences, enough info to get a handle on the idea and then hopefully help me take it further.

[genji2000]

And the bit that I could get an angle on: two of Timbo's Final Six are Billy and Dee who are in a relationship (known to Dee, who is aware, but not to Billy, who is a sleeper), even though in Season One the Significant Seven (or Twelve) cannot experience love with each other, but in Faith in Season Four we allegedly see two Sixes in a relationship based on love. So what's changed between Seasons One and Four?

[The Dirt]

@13th - umm, wow.
@Timbo - what you say is correct.
@Genji - so, is this a completely hypothetical analysis or do we (mostly Timbo) actually expect Billy to come back to the show in the form of a Billy copy?

[genji2000]

My only concern is whether those two S7 Cylons were in love with each other, when as far as we know S7 Cylons don't love each other. So what's changed?

[The Dirt]

Well, I know that when I love someone, I'm willing to put a bullet in their head just to prove a point to a mortal enemy that needs reassurance. I also make sure to give them a comforting kiss on the lips before I give them a lead one to the brain.

[timbo]

Well, I know that when I love someone, I'm willing to put a bullet in their head just to prove a point to a mortal enemy that needs reassurance. I also make sure to give them a comforting kiss on the lips before I give them a lead one to the brain.

Me too. "I love you, but I have to kill you". The times I have had to say that sentence. In fact these days, first thing I do when I see a hot chick is get my gun out. Okay, hopefully we are far enough beyond the Benny Hill stage, that I can leave that last sentence in without attracting a lot of nudge nudge ripostes.

Anyway, concerning the question of cylon love, I think what in we were told was loose enough to think that it was really about reproduction, rather than a black and white cylons cant have feelings thing. Boomer loved Chief and Cap six loved Baltar. One a sleeper, the other activated, so clearly they can love.

And yes, I think we will see Billy again. He might, as Laura suspects, even be president one day. I am completely willing to back my ideas to the point of looking like a twat if I am wrong. I understand that it is difficult to embrace an idea that is so far from your preconceptions, but it is the only way to make the real leaps of faith.

I am sure I am still missing loads of stuff. Maybe even the really big concept at the heart of the finale, and I need help taking this further. I would rather be part of the forum that made sense of the show, than an individual who guessed the ending.

My name is Timbo, and I believe there are 17 cylons.

[genji2000]

...concerning the question of cylon love, I think what in we were told was loose enough to think that it was really about reproduction, rather than a black and white cylons cant have feelings thing. Boomer loved Chief and Cap six loved Baltar. One a sleeper, the other activated, so clearly they can love.

Yes they can love, but can the S7 love each other? We're told not. Tyrol is F5 and Baltar is human. That Boomer and Caprica Six loved them proves nothing about S7+S7. But Natalie and Barolay Six would indicate something.

And yes, I think we will see Billy again. He might, as Laura suspects, even be president one day. I am completely willing to back my ideas to the point of looking like a twat if I am wrong.

No more than any other theorist here or on any other forum. I mean, "Roslin is the Final Cylon." lol.

I understand that it is difficult to embrace an idea that is so far from your preconceptions, but it is the only way to make the real leaps of faith.

I am sure I am still missing loads of stuff. Maybe even the really big concept at the heart of the finale, and I need help taking this further. I would rather be part of the forum that made sense of the show, than an individual who guessed the ending.

Sometimes you gotta roll the hard six = thinking it through yourself.

[Wouter]

So, what you're saying is that Natalie happily (I didn't notice a great deal of remorse, just resignation) executed her lover in order to prove a point to Kara?

Not quite "happily", but yes I think she shot her lover to prove a point to Kara.

[The Dirt]

How about the fact that the 6s refer to each other as sisters? That sounds more like sisterly love to me, but whatever, I'll never get through to any of you. You're right, Cylons have no concept of incest, so yeah, twins DO fall in love with each other. Gashness.

Timbo, you are furfilling your role nicely.

[Wouter]

Yes they can love, but can the S7 love each other. We're told not. Tyrol is F5 and Baltar is human. That Boomer and Caprica Six loved them proves nothing about S7+S7. But Natalie and Barolay Six would indicate something.

The S7 are human beings (skinjobs are human beings, when it comes down to it, aren't they?), for all intents and purposes. Of course they can love each other. Regarding of what you think about Natalie and the other 6, they clearly had a caring relationship. Even if you read it as more of a counsellor/big sister thing, there was clearly something there.

Boomer was also caring for caprica-6 when the latter pretended to get hurt by Boomer's outburst with the picture - not the love you're thinking about, but it shows that S7 Cylons can and do care for each other, much like colonials can. Another example of this is the 4 comforting the 8 when they are dying from the virus in Galactica's prison. A tender gesture that betrays a caring feeling.

Caprica-6 was also hurt by D'Anna's "betrayal" with Baltar, so she seemed to have had a personal rapport wit her as well as him in their threesomes, and be hurt by it in a very personal way.

How about the fact that the 6s refer to each other as sisters? That sounds more like sisterly love to me, but whatever, I'll never get through to any of you. You're right, Cylons have no concept of incest, so yeah, twins DO fall in love with each other. Gashness.

Do twins kiss each other on the lips like that??

[Stairway]

Do twins kiss each other on the lips like that??

In some cultures, yes of course.

[The Dirt]

Like thees guys

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:NjW2XpgjUxdKXM:http://blog.reidreport.com/uploaded_images/bush-lieberman-kiss-732259.jpg

[Wouter]

In some cultures, yes of course.
Which cultures? Now you got my interest ;)

[13th_Cylon]

Which cultures? Now you got my interest ;)

Male -> France

Female -> Hollywood

[Wouter]

Male -> France

Not on the lips they don't. :D

[The Dirt]

I thought that the Italians were more prone to kiss on the lips. Also, I'm pretty sure I've seen it in eastern Europe.

[Major Murphy]

Timbo, I re-watched Sacrafice and several things definitely stuck out to me this time:

Immediately before the start of the hostage situation, Dee eyes both Vincent and the other terrorist.

Ellen seems incredibly eager to confront the terrorists and to get her husband on the phone, so that he would know that she is a hostage.

Starbuck's cover is blown by Vincent, who learns something is amiss by way of eye contact with Ellen.

During the shot of Dee kneeling with dying Billy, the camera cuts to Ellen who is watching them and also mourning, then back to Dee and Billy. Ellen looks remorseful in this scene. Also, it would seem that Ellen should be more concerned with Apollo though than Billy.

Bedside with Apollo, Dee has an odd choice of words for him. "Lee, you can't leave. You're too important. You can't leave." It seems like earlier in the episode she made a similar comment about him or to him.



Other thoughts:

Have we ever seen a non-cylon in the mortgue? I recall seeing Leoben and Boomer. Now we briefly see Billy there. Although that likely means nothing.

Whether she is human or cylon, why doesn't Sesha immediately realize that she is not viewing a fresh corpse?

They don't have to all be cylons. It could be a conspiracy with only one or two cylons involved. Sesha could have been legitematly a vengeful human. Ellen could have been involved somehow either as a paid service or as a favor for Zarek. I think Dee probably is a cylon at this point, but even she has always been distrustful of Athena.

[13th_Cylon]

I thought that the Italians were more prone to kiss on the lips. Also, I'm pretty sure I've seen it in eastern Europe.


Ok all of Europe excluding UK, Germany & Scandinavia.

[timbo]

Timbo, I re-watched Sacrafice and several things definitely stuck out to me this time:

Immediately before the start of the hostage situation, Dee eyes both Vincent and the other terrorist.

Ellen seems incredibly eager to confront the terrorists and to get her husband on the phone, so that he would know that she is a hostage.

Starbuck's cover is blown by Vincent, who learns something is amiss by way of eye contact with Ellen.

During the shot of Dee kneeling with dying Billy, the camera cuts to Ellen who is watching them and also mourning, then back to Dee and Billy. Ellen looks remorseful in this scene. Also, it would seem that Ellen should be more concerned with Apollo though than Billy.

Bedside with Apollo, Dee has an odd choice of words for him. "Lee, you can't leave. You're too important. You can't leave." It seems like earlier in the episode she made a similar comment about him or to him.



Other thoughts:

Have we ever seen a non-cylon in the mortgue? I recall seeing Leoben and Boomer. Now we briefly see Billy there. Although that likely means nothing.

Whether she is human or cylon, why doesn't Sesha immediately realize that she is not viewing a fresh corpse?

They don't have to all be cylons. It could be a conspiracy with only one or two cylons involved. Sesha could have been legitematly a vengeful human. Ellen could have been involved somehow either as a paid service or as a favor for Zarek. I think Dee probably is a cylon at this point, but even she has always been distrustful of Athena.

Major - this is what I hoped would happen. When you rewatch with different ideas in your mind, if the idea is right, it really resonates. You notice things that before meant nothing. I had missed the eye contact thing and the body thing. Thanks dude, I really need some help convincing even myself sometimes.

If anyone is thinking of popping up with a "yes, but maybe it was just coincidence, or they didn´t really make eye contact" post, please don´t. If you disagree, just ignore this thread and let anyone who wants to see where this idea leads us get on with it.

[genji2000]

Yes they can love, but can the S7 love each other. We're told not. Tyrol is F5 and Baltar is human. That Boomer and Caprica Six loved them proves nothing about S7+S7. But Natalie and Barolay Six would indicate something.

The S7 are human beings (skinjobs are human beings, when it comes down to it, aren't they?), for all intents and purposes.

Well this is what I'm trying to get at. Yes and no. Initially they're robots. They have all the sexual and emotional maturity of children (speaking of Cylons generally - individual copies seem to achieve emotional maturity after being involved with humans). They develop throughout the series and my question is if the adult relationship of these two Sixes indicates adulthood. Can S7 procreate without humans or the Final Five now? I realise that love being the missing ingredient is a Cylon theory, not a statement of fact, but to date we have no evidence to the contrary so for the sake of argument what do you think about what the relationship says about Cylons' emotional maturity, or do you totally discount the missing ingredient aspect?

Of course they can love each other. Regarding of what you think about Natalie and the other 6, they clearly had a caring relationship. Even if you read it as more of a counsellor/big sister thing, there was clearly something there.

OK well we either discount that relationship because you're right about it being sexual and therefore that's the point of this sub-discussion, or I address the counsellor/sisterly thing and say that caring isn't love. A doctor doesn't love his patients, but he cares for them.

Boomer was also caring for caprica-6 when the latter pretended to get hurt by Boomer's outburst with the picture - not the love you're thinking about, but it shows that S7 Cylons can and do care for each other, much like colonials can. Another example of this is the 4 comforting the 8 when they are dying from the virus in Galactica's prison. A tender gesture that betrays a caring feeling.

If a woman fell down the stairs where you work, you'd help her back to her feet, right? You'd care whether she hurt herself and if she was ok, right? You don't love her though. Caring isn't love. Giving someone a band-aid isn't love. Not the love that prevents the S7 from procreating.

Caprica-6 was also hurt by D'Anna's "betrayal" with Baltar, so she seemed to have had a personal rapport wit her as well as him in their threesomes, and be hurt by it in a very personal way.

I've steered clear of this because we don't know if it was a three-way relationship - I mean whether D'Anna and Caprica Six would've slept together if Baltar wasn't around. You can easily explain Caprica Six being upset as being because Baltar had gone off with D'Anna, after everything Caprica Six and Baltar had been through. I don't think the personal rapport with D'Anna is a) necessarily there and b) necessarily indicative of the love that would enable them to procreate.

How about the fact that the 6s refer to each other as sisters? That sounds more like sisterly love to me, but whatever, I'll never get through to any of you. You're right, Cylons have no concept of incest, so yeah, twins DO fall in love with each other. Gashness.

Do twins kiss each other on the lips like that??

I think Christians do, don't they? I'm not sure why I think that but a kiss on the mouth is a Christ thing I think.

Ok all of Europe excluding UK, Germany & Scandinavia.

Are you kidding me? Have you seen the way Scandinavians say 'hello'? It's embarrassing. They have way too many saunas over there.

[Major Murphy]

"yes, but maybe it was just coincidence, or they didn´t really make eye contact"

I don't think that you could argue that. I mean the eye contact itself could have been a coincidence, but not camera work and the editing, those are deliberate.

I challenge everyone to watch this episode and tell me that Dee and Ellen are not in some way involved in a conspiracy.

[Wouter]

They develop throughout the series and my question is if the adult relationship of these two Sixes indicates adulthood. Can S7 procreate without humans or the Final Five now? I realise that love being the missing ingredient is a Cylon theory, not a statement of fact, but to date we have no evidence to the contrary so for the sake of argument what do you think about what the relationship says about Cylons' emotional maturity, or do you totally discount the missing ingredient aspect?
I'm no fan of the missing ingredient being love - in our world at least, it would be a total BS explanation, and it sounds rather silly as well if it would be true in BSG. We don't know near enough about Cylon relationships, then and now, to say for sure though.


OK well we either discount that relationship because you're right about it being sexual and therefore that's the point of this sub-discussion, or I address the counsellor/sisterly thing and say that caring isn't love. A doctor doesn't love his patients, but he cares for them.
A doctor normally doesn't love his patients, but then he normally doesn't kiss them either, especially not on the lips.


I think Christians do, don't they? I'm not sure why I think that but a kiss on the mouth is a Christ thing I think.
"Christians" don't, not where I live at least. There are lots of different stripes of christians, obviously, but it is not something inherent about christians at all.

[genji2000]

I'm no fan of the missing ingredient being love - in our world at least, it would be a total BS explanation, and it sounds rather silly as well if it would be true in BSG. We don't know near enough about Cylon relationships, then and now, to say for sure though.

Well, it is a bit twee, but isn't it what we've been spoonfed since Season One? I accept it (though I leave myself open to this retcon, that it was a Cylon theory and maybe they got it wrong, in comparison with the twelve models being another Cylon theory because for me that's a statement of fact), you don't - fair enough.

A doctor normally doesn't love his patients, but then he normally doesn't kiss them either, especially not on the lips.

Ouch. Yes, true. But it was meant as a broad example of caring vs. love and I think the kiss between these girls was like a hobbit kiss, or a Christ kiss. It was deep sincere love, but not necessarily the love that leads to crucifying mortgage repayments and screaming kids. Which isn't the point really because for this argument I accept the loving relationship between the Sixes. What I'm asking is does that relationship indicate an emotional maturity in the S7?

"Christians" don't, not where I live at least. There are lots of different stripes of christians, obviously, but it is not something inherent about christians at all.

No, not where I live either, but I think it is a Christ thing. It's a long time since I've been involved with the inner Christian circle (the training for speaking in tongues, etc.) but my flawed and cynical memory is shouting at me to recall that kissing on the mouth is a Christ thing. I wish someone here knew their biblical bible and could flatly deny this or confirm it. We may need to separate Christ from Christians (we all know they're not the same thing anyway).

Alternatively, it's just as the wiki says, a Cylon thing:

The importance of physical touching in Cylon culture is exhibited in this episode, especially how Cylons interact among their own specific models. For example, before Natalie executes the Six who murdered Barolay, they kiss each other. When the Eight who was shot by the Centurion is dying, she asks for Athena's forgiveness in her attempt to lead a mutiny, and stretches out her hand to touch Athena's. However, Athena refuses, and Anders steps in to provide that sense of touch before she dies. This interaction amongst the models within their own model number may be a reflection of being "with each other," especially in times of certain death. Something like this was seen earlier in "A Measure of Salvation", where the dying Cylons aboard the stricken basestar link hands in prayer.

[timbo]

I don't think that you could argue that. I mean the eye contact itself could have been a coincidence, but not camera work and the editing, those are deliberate.

I challenge everyone to watch this episode and tell me that Dee and Ellen are not in some way involved in a conspiracy.

Major Murphy, you have stepped out of the box. Congratulations dude. The air is clearer and the views are beautiful, here.

He is right, if you watch it with these ideas in your mind, you will see.

[13th_Cylon]

Are you kidding me? Have you seen the way Scandinavians say 'hello'? It's embarrassing. They have way too many saunas over there.

yes of course what was i thinking...i remember watching a show on the travel channel....yes it was embarassing.

[timbo]

Are you kidding me? Have you seen the way Scandinavians say 'hello'? It's embarrassing. They have way too many saunas over there.

Yeah, and I bet you have already started browsing the holiday brochures and checking how many bars of soap you are allowed to take through Norwegian customs.