Do the 12 colonies live on 12 different planets?

[Zompton]

Were the 12 colonies on 12 different planets or were they all located on Caprica before the attack? They make it sound like each of the 12 colonies were on their own planet, but the only planet they ever talk about is Caprica. So where the 12 colonies on 12 different planets, or were they in 12 different "country or continent like" parts of Caprica?

[The Dirt]

How many episodes have you seen? If the answer is all of them, then how much medication were you on?

[Neakal]

They were separate stellar bodies although not every poster here believes all of the Colonies were actual planets. Caprica is not the only Colony seen though it is the most prominent. Other planets such as Scorpia is seen from orbit, Tauron is seen from orbit as well as a scene of a Tauranian city under attack by Cylons 40 years ago, there exist a photo of Aerolon's capital and Picon may have been seen in several shots in flashbacks of Adama's military life.

Incidentally, during the drafts of the Miniseries, all the Colonies were located on a single planet: Kobol.

[Zompton]

I understand the whole deal with Kobol and the past, im just referring to where they lived at the beginning of the mini series.

[The Dirt]

If you have watched Razor, it clearly shows Tauron and Picon. Also, countless dialog states that the 12 tribes correspond to 12 planets. Many characters throughout the show have made statements like "I am Gemenese" and "I am from Gemenon" as an example. I thought that the show made this point pretty clear, hence why I asked if you have seen all of the episodes. Also, Neakal answered your question.

[137th Gebirg]

I believe RDM said in an early podcast that he was following the highly improbable concept originally laid out in TOS that the 12 Colonies were, in fact, on 12 separate worlds. Like Neakal said, that's not to say they were planets - some could have been moons of gas giants capable of supporting life, or possibly planetoids that were terraformed - assuming the Colonies had such technology.

Here's a map of the TOS Colonial system (named "Cyranus", by the way). It appears to be at least a trinary:

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/60/bgstarchart7xu.th.jpg (http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bgstarchart7xu.jpg)

[Mayhem1703]

According to the RPG put out by Margaret Weis, which though it only goes through the first season, seems to have been kept very much to canon, there were 12 inhabitable bodies in the system, but not all were planets, in fact if I remember correctly, some of the colonies were moons of other colonies.

Guess this answer depends on if you consider the RPG as canon.

[Neakal]

I believe RDM said in an early podcast that he was following the highly improbable concept originally laid out in TOS that the 12 Colonies were, in fact, on 12 separate worlds. Like Neakal said, that's not to say they were planets - some could have been moons of gas giants capable of supporting life, or possibly planetoids that were terraformed - assuming the Colonies had such technology.

Here's a map of the TOS Colonial system (named "Cyranus", by the way). It appears to be at least a trinary:

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/60/bgstarchart7xu.th.jpg (http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bgstarchart7xu.jpg)

That picture belongs to the Straits of Magadon doesn't it? It was the place that the Colonials had to pass and the Cylons had laid mines. At least in BSGwiki that picture is shown under the Magadon page.

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Correct. Nova of Madagon (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Nova_of_Madagon), actually, even though they actually explain in the pilot dialog that it's not a nova at all, but really "a starfield of intense, blinding brightness" - whatever that means. I love TOS dearly, even to this day, but some of their science really needed work in that show.

[Neakal]

^^^ Correct. Nova of Madagon (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Nova_of_Madagon), actually, even though they actually explain in the pilot dialog that it's not a nova at all, but really "a starfield of intense, blinding brightness" - whatever that means. I love TOS dearly, even to this day, but some of their science really needed work in that show.

Well wouldn't that be something similar to the star cluster the reimagined show went by in "The Passage"?

[137th Gebirg]

Yes, which actually irritated me when I listened to the podcast on that. RDM was saying something about using dramatic license with regard to flying blind with bright light that was in the nebula/star field and not being able to come up with a way to believably do it without obscuring the actors' faces, so the pilots weren't even wearing sunglasses when they went through the radiation field that should have melted their retinas. They seem to have completely forgotten that they blacked-out the canopies in the TOS pilot and operated strictly off sensors to make it through an almost identical obsticle.

[smelly_feet]

This actually turned out to be a good posting, thanks Zompton. This actually cleared up some things for me too.

cheers all

[pagad]

I love TOS dearly, even to this day, but some of their science really needed work in that show.

I think it's fair to say that its grasp of astrophysics was appalling. In fact, it's the strongest criticism I'd level at it having seen some of the episodes. Even Star Wars managed better! "Star system" and "galaxy" seemed to be damn near interchangable, and the unimaginable distances of space weren't even acknowledged, really. At sublight speed - which I am given to understand the civilians were restricted to - it would take decades to cross the distance between just a single pair of stars, let alone a motherfrakkin' galaxy!.

Back on topic, the improbability of 12 habitable planets in one system - even a trinary - isn't too hard to imagine if you take terraforming technology into account. 'S what Firefly did.

[Commodore]

I was rewatching the Miniseries last night, and Adama referred to the nuking of the "planets" of Caprica, Geminon, Sagitarron, Aerelon and Picon. Also, they kept Virgon between Galactica and Caprica, so that the Cylons could not see them.

I understand the difficulty of finding a solar system with 12 human-habitable planets on it, but since it is fiction I can suspend my disbelief.

I starting thinking, however, about the difficulty of running a Federation that existed on 12 planets, which most likely have different lengths of days and years based on varying revolutions and rotations. A company based in London would have to consider the 5 hour difference when dealing with someone in New York (making sure someone was awake to take a call, for example). Can you imagine trying to deal with another planet, with a day than ran, say, 23 minutes shorter than your own? For each of your "days", the other planet would lose another 23 minutes. You'd need a very complex chart, or a computer program, to keep track of different timezones. Then multiply that by 12 worlds.

Again, this is fiction, so interesting to consider, but not crucial to the plot.

They don't have that problem in the survivor fleet, as they are not basing their days or years on a particular star, so they can declare a standard day and year and be good with it. I find it amusing, however, that except for "33", the Cylons don't tend to attack at "night". Can you picture Tigh and Adama running to the bridge in their pajamas? :)

[pagad]

I understand the difficulty of finding a solar system with 12 human-habitable planets on it, but since it is fiction I can suspend my disbelief.


...terraforming...

:thumbsup:

Also, welcome to the forum!

[The Dirt]

Maybe someone should start a poll. I second the terraforming theory. I also second the possible moons as colony planets as well.

[Commodore]

:thumbsup:

Also, welcome to the forum!

Thanks for the friendly welcome.

I haven't gotten the impression that any of the colonies were made up of domes, or dug out of asteroids, or living in space stations. Instead, the impression is of living normally on earth-like bodies. Even with terraforming to add such basics as oxygen and water, you'd need to find 12 planets or moons with close-enough levels of gravity, temperature, etc. to start with. That would be hard.

I'm happy to just dim the lights and go with the story.

[pagad]

Thanks for the friendly welcome.

I haven't gotten the impression that any of the colonies were made up of domes, or dug out of asteroids, or living in space stations. Instead, the impression is of living normally on earth-like bodies. Even with terraforming to add such basics as oxygen and water, you'd need to find 12 planets or moons with close-enough levels of gravity, temperature, etc. to start with. That would be hard.

I'm happy to just dim the lights and go with the story.

I remember - RDM, I think? - saying something about the Colonials (or their ancestors) losing advanced star-faring technology some time after they first settled the Colonies. Thousands of years would be plenty of time for terraforming processes to work to create Earth-like worlds. Given a system with enough Earth/Mars-like planets, I don't think it's that impossible. We don't know enough about other star systems to completely rule it out - I mean maybe the original Colonials chose the system because it had this rare characteristic. Indeed, habitable planets are extremely rare finds for the RTF - Kobol, the algae planet and Earth are the only ones they have found since leaving.

I like finding explanations for this sort of thing because it strengthens suspension of disbelief just that bit further.

[genji2000]

I remember - RDM, I think? - saying something about the Colonials (or their ancestors) losing advanced star-faring technology some time after they first settled the Colonies.

I haven't heard/read that but it's interesting. If the Thirteenth Tribe left Kobol 2,000 years before the war that scattered the humans to the twelve colonies, it could be that they took that development (or even just maintenance) knowledge with them, leaving the humans with what knowledge they had remaining, but no real fundamental understanding of what they had or how to maintain/develop it. Likewise, if the Final Five (or one of them) were involved in the development of the resurrection processes, including the Hub, their absence might leave the Cylons with a big old resurrection network but no knowledge of how to rebuild it, should it be destroyed.

[Neakal]

Going into heavy theorising and fanwanking territory, could the 12 Colonies have been terraformed in a previous cycle or (if you don't believe in the cycle) during the heights of the civilisation of Kobol, only to be abandoned when the war on Kobol broke out?

Finding the Colonies ready-for-use would encouraged them to settle in the same system whereas if only one or two planets were found to be habitable, I'd imagine some of the tribes would keep looking or they would have another war to take over that one or two habitable planets they found. Terraforming is a pretty big effort. I don't think a migration fleet that recently lost their homeworld to an (implied to be nuclear) war would possess the necessary technology(particularly supported by RDM's mention that certain technologies were lost which Pagad mentioned and I remember reading as well). Plus the idea that they were terraformed during the heights of Kobol means the 12 tribes would have had some references that there were a group of planets they could settle in. Why else would 12 groups of people, who at some point tore eachothers' throats, head in the same general direction?

[genji2000]

Going into heavy theorising and fanwanking territory, could the 12 Colonies have been terraformed in a previous cycle or (if you don't believe in the cycle) during the heights of the civilisation of Kobol, only to be abandoned when the war on Kobol broke out?

In the needs-to-be-explained list, this is pretty marginal for making an appearance. I doubt the Writers are interested in whether the 'planets' (or moons, or asteroids) needed to be treated to make them habitable. As I think pagad said, originally the twelve 'colonies' lived on one planet in the draft scripts. Later they made it twelve planets. Planets enforces the divisions between the tribes better than twelve great cities of Kobol would.

Finding the Colonies ready-for-use would encouraged them to settle in the same system whereas if only one or two planets were found to be habitable, I'd imagine some of the tribes would keep looking or they would have another war to take over that one or two habitable planets they found. Terraforming is a pretty big effort. I don't think a migration fleet that recently lost their homeworld to an (implied to be nuclear) war would possess the necessary technology(particularly supported by RDM's mention that certain technologies were lost which Pagad mentioned and I remember reading as well). Plus the idea that they were terraformed during the heights of Kobol means the 12 tribes would have had some references that there were a group of planets they could settle in. Why else would 12 groups of people, who at some point tore eachothers' throats, head in the same general direction?

The ties that bind, maybe? The twelve tribes are siblings. They might not be able to stand each others' guts, but commerce dictates that you maintain contact with your potential customers.

[Neakal]

In the needs-to-be-explained list, this is pretty marginal for making an appearance. I doubt the Writers are interested in whether the 'planets' (or moons, or asteroids) needed to be treated to make them habitable. As I think pagad said, originally the twelve 'colonies' lived on one planet in the draft scripts. Later they made it twelve planets. Planets enforces the divisions between the tribes better than twelve great cities of Kobol would.

Aye. I even read parts of that script and I don't expect it to be explained in the main portion of the series or explained at all though it is something interesting to ponder.


The ties that bind, maybe? The twelve tribes are siblings. They might not be able to stand each others' guts, but commerce dictates that you maintain contact with your potential customers.

Thats a good point. I personally believe (and know from experience) that there is a certain point where being siblings will not mean anything except in (and sometimes despite) the presence of an "other". Just see how it took the Cylons (the "other") to unite the constantly squabbling siblings. Though by your argument, adding "exploitables" to "customers" could have a similar binding effect.

[thevarrior]

The way I read it, the twelve colonies are on twelve separate planets or moons within a SINGLE star system. They are not spread out amongst different star systems, to my knowledge. I am a personal fan of the terraforming theory, since it's possible that the technology on ancient Kobol was powerful enough to manage it. Plus it's not a new concept - in Firefly, it was the exact same thing, hundreds of planets and moons around a *single* star system - no FTLs, no jump system, no nothing, pure propulsion, that too non-relativistic. In that case they terraformed it too, and given that BSG has taken some of the feel from that show, I'm willing to be they took that idea as well.

[Sixu]

This isn't "cannon" I realise, but I always imagined the Colonial system as this:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5254/heliossystemuy0.png

I wasn't sure about "Ragnor" though, I had heard it was a gas giant others say "nebula" :s, if so the gas giant "Zeus" would be "Ragnor"

[Mayhem1703]

Ok, finally had a chance to pull out the BSG Role Playing Game (Nothing direct from RDM, but foreward by Richard Hatch, so I'm thinking it's tied enough to be somewhat canon?)

On page 21 there is a sidenote titled "The Children of Kobol" which details the system of the colonies.

The twelve colony worlds spun around a single star on elliptical orbits. Closest to the sun was sweltering, volcanic Canceron, the greatest source of tylium in the system. Next came a Trojan orbit of planets -- three worlds following the same orbital path, seperated by roughly the same distance (one-sixth the orbit's diameter). In order, these planets were Aquaria, Caprica, and Virgon. They were centers of art, culture, and system-wide trade.

Two gas giants followed, each in its own elliptical path and each itself orbited by a number of moons. The first of these behemoths was Zeus, named after the king of the gods, and it's moons were Leonis, Picon, and Scorpia. Another large planet named Aerelon shared Zeus' orbit, positioned exactly opposite the giant. The second gas giant was Hera and her charges were Gemenon and Libris, with Sagittaron likewise spinning opposite. These giants and their moons were the heart of the system. This real estate was the most heavily contested during the colonies' many civil wars.

At the outermost edge of the system dwelled Tauron, followed by a third gas giant named Ragnar. Tauron was the first world settled after the fall of Kobol. It was the springboard for all expansion in the system. Its people were also responsible for the Cylons' spark of life. Not something to be proud of these days.Yes, I sat down and typed paragraphs out of a RPG book. Yes, I am a geek. :lol:

One nice thing about this game, no need to buy 3000 supplements in order to have all the newest rules... The only things you'd need to figure out for the game if you wanted or needed to would be stats for the Pegasus (extrapolate from Galactica) if you wanted to use that style ship, info for a Resurrection ship, and stats for chars and Cylons, including altering some stats for those found out to be Cylons.

List of characters given in the book: Bill Adama, Saul Tigh (at this time not known as a Cylon), Starbuck, Apollo, Tyrol (at this time not known as a Cylon), Helo, Baltar, Roslin (1'st bout with Cancer, Chamilla addict), Boxey, Hot Dog, Doc Cottle, Dualla, Elsoha, Gaeta, Fireball, Sgt Hadrian, Cally, Kat, Billy Keikeya, Jammer, Playa Palacios, Chuckles, Crashdown, Flat Top, Diana Seelix,Peter Socinus, Ellen Tigh, Tom Zarek, generic NPCs, Cylon Centurions (only RDM, not 1'st gen), Number 8, and Number 6.

Also has stats on various ships, including deck plans of the Galactica, Colonial One, and the Astral Queen, stats on the Raptor, Viper II, Viper VII, Raider (Sparrow), Heavy Raider (Turkey), and Basestar.

Hmm... Seems this turned into a bit of an advert for the game. Sorry about that....

[Mayhem1703]

OK, I'm an even bigger geek than I knew. I just sat down with Paint and did up a rough diagram of what the RPG indicates for the stellar geography... And it's my first publicly posted piece... So you all are my lab-rats... Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha.....

[pagad]

...but foreward by Richard Hatch, so I'm thinking it's tied enough to be somewhat canon?

These things never are. This along with stuff like the comic can't really be considered canon.

Same with Hatch's novels in regard to TOS.

[genji2000]

OK, I'm an even bigger geek than I knew. I just sat down with Paint and did up a rough diagram of what the RPG indicates for the stellar geography... And it's my first publicly posted piece... So you all are my lab-rats... Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha.....

OK, shut up about the game now because it's off-topic, but really well done with the diagram. It's much better to visualise like that. I think you need to go back and get the elliptical orbits in, and do something with the colours.

Good work.