The case for Baltar being the Fifth

[caprica_six]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, I'm sorry if it has.
it was taken from here:

http://ideas.4brad.com/baltar-final-cylon#comment-4933

"Baltar is the master cylon
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2008-02-20 22:42.
There is more than one No.6 in the picture. I will not be surprised if the missing person in the picture is Baltar- a different version of him. Perhaps a Baltar that has come to terms with his true cylon identity and is confident.
Here is my theroy abt Baltar
Baltar is the Master Cylon and 1 of the Final 5 that ensures the cycle of "this happened before and will happen again". The Final 5 were not recently created but have always existed and undergo a continuous cycle of death and rebirth. They lose the memory of who they are each time and they require special triggers to realise their true identity. Because Baltar knows he will not rememeber what he is after he is reborn, "Original Baltar" programmed the 7 cylon models, including No. 6 to seek "Current Baltar" out and carry out his will - which is to cause the destruction of the 12 colonies and follow/guide Humanity to Earth. No. 6 in Baltar's head is actually a representation/projection of Baltar's own subconsciousness that helps to guide Baltar in his actions. This explains why Baltar is able to seemingly make random but correct guesses of where the cylon weak spot is (Hand of God), who is a cylon (pre-Season 1 movie), what is going to happen next (cylon-hybrid child), what is cylon equipment (cylon transponder), etc the list goes on when you watch it all again."

This to me makes so much sense to me. I know people think it's a cheap way out, but if you really think about it since the show started they have been alluding to the fact that Baltar is not on anyone's "side" the humans nor the cylons. He has been tourted by both, gone thru SOOO much sufferring as well. If you read the hybrid's prophecy it will clearly state

"And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering"

this to me is Baltar. It can lead to Kara I figured that I have to rule her out cuase it would be kinda wierd, but hey she's suffered pleanty as well. If you watch the latest character promo (Kara Thrace - Agitator or Angel?) of her it will lead to believe that she might just be a cylon, very spiolery btw. Also if any of you guys have seen the lingering 5 scenes that have been on the internet for about a month, you'll see that Baltar is talking to another Baltar!!

If it is Baltar I think it would really pay off, think about it

[eboe]

I'm gonna agree with this. Baltar is the last Cylon. And let's face it, the guy has been thinking he is one forever.

[Georgiotje]

I think that you need to interpret the sentence in another way: "And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering" They sey that the redemption will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. So that means that the Final Cylon is going to suffer in the fourth season, because he/she hasn't been redeemed yet?

[Neakal]

Well BSG-cast had an interesting take on that "howl" comment (http://www.bsgcast.com/?p=29#comments) (6th minute onwards) that seems to point Baltar. I don't agree every idea they have but their interpretation of Final Hybrid's prophecies regarding the Final Five and Baltar is interesting. May have spoliers.

[caprica_six]

I think that you need to interpret the sentence in another way: "And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering" They sey that the redemption will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. So that means that the Final Cylon is going to suffer in the fourth season, because he/she hasn't been redeemed yet?

I don't think the show is shaped that way. Every season bulids on one another, it gets better and better cause we know a little more each season. So to say that the Final Cylon is someone who is "going" to suffer would I think cheapen the final reveal.

No I'm gonna go back to Starbuck becasue she is an equal candidate too. Both her and Batlar have had alot of suffering, and I'm gonna go back to the Kara Thrace - Agitator or Angel? promo. In that there is a scence that I won't give away until people want to watch it. Honestly I don't know why they would reveal something like that this early. She could possibly be a Cylon, it could work and I have faith that the writers will work it if they do choose to make her it. In my opinion I would like Batlar to be it, I really think it could work, they theory I posted holds alot of wait. I think people are just thinking it's the easy way out but I think that it does fit very perfectly.

[timbo]

I really like the ideas here in this thread. It does make sense that Baltar would be the last one as he more than any other character represents the arrogant, selfish and dishonest side of humanity, and so has the furthest to go for redemption. I have not heard the word redemption used much, but I suppose that this is the concept at the heart of the show. Individually and collectively, a sort of "long dark night of the soul" trek across the universe. I am through making predictions. Now, I just want to see where it all goes.

[Aurora]

I've rewatched seasons 3 & 4 eps, and while I once thought Baltar was too obvious a choice for the final cylon, I now think he probably is.

First, his ability to see and interact with the head characters is unique. These head characters are more than visions, they are interactive and in the moment. Plus, the only other character to have a head character interaction is a cylon...Caprica Six with her Head Baltar relationship.

Second, the obvious allusion to Baltar as the Christ figure would be further played out if the Final cylon is in Baltar's image. This would complete the "God and Jesus are one and the same" component of Christianity. Jesus was God's Son, but he was also God (the ONE God).

Do the final Five exist as copies, like the other models, or are they singular in nature? If the Fifth Cylon is their God, then making a copy of himself would be unique. The Baltar we have known would be a just a copy of the Fifth. In this way, our Baltar is both the Son of and the Same as the Fifth, like the Christianity model.

Our Baltar copy does not know about his true nature. Either we will meet the original Baltar who will be revealed as the Fifth, or our Baltar will uncover the truth about himself, thus revealing himself and or his original as the Fifth,

My apologies to those who have already brought these points up and I missed them...

[Prolescum]

First, his ability to see and interact with the head characters is unique.
Plus, the only other character to have a head character interaction is a cylon...Caprica Six with her Head Baltar relationship.
not unique, then. I believe also at least one other character has a conversation with a head character.


Second, the obvious allusion to Baltar as the Christ figure would be further played out if the Final cylon is in Baltar's image. This would complete the "God and Jesus are one and the same" component of Christianity. Jesus was God's Son, but he was also God (the ONE God).
BSG's monotheistic religion is not like christianity at all, people keep making this point, but it's not valid.
It is, however supposed to invoke the idea of christianity but is not synonymous with it. Although Baltar does have long brown hair like the paintings we have of jesus, (not, however, contemporary to him).


Do the final Five exist as copies, like the other models, or are they singular in nature?
no-one has refined the 'fundamentally different' nature of the FF so, alas, we wait.


If the Fifth Cylon is their God, then making a copy of himself would be unique. The Baltar we have known would be a just a copy of the Fifth. In this way, our Baltar is both the Son of and the Same as the Fifth, like the Christianity model.
Not sure how this would tie in with the FF being cylons if one of them is actually god, it doesn't seem right, especially when there are only a few characters who can be the final one. I'm pretty sure that Baltar being the 'chosen one' discounts him from being the final the same as Kara having a 'special destiny' probably discounts her.

Our Baltar copy does not know about his true nature. Either we will meet the original Baltar who will be revealed as the Fifth, or our Baltar will uncover the truth about himself, thus revealing himself and or his original as the Fifth,
Baltar spent a long time hoping he was a cylon, to make sense of his betrayal of humanity and this was considered important at the time for his growth as the 'chosen one', ie to make him accept himself for who he is and take the religion back to the humans.


I could, of course, be completely wrong...:)

[Aurora]

not unique, then. I believe also at least one other character has a conversation with a head character.


Yea...I meant unique among human characters.

I think it is possible that the Fifth could be a copy of the Cylon "God", or, whoever the entity is that the Cylons perceiveas their God. (this entity may not be an actual supreme being, but just one who has the cylons convinced that it is)

Other reason I think Baltar may be the Fifth/Cylon God:

From the moment that Six revealed herself to Baltar on Caprica, one of the first things she did was to express her desire to share her belief in the "one God" to Baltar. She was almost a zealot about it, if you recall.

Now Baltar is the catalyst for the "one God" paradigm in the fleet, actively cultivating his view to more and more humans. He was, at first, directed by his head Six to do this. Now I think he really believes it himself.

The head character has shepherded Baltar along primarily so he could prepare the humans to accept the "one God" concept. I think it would be a cool twist if Baltar turns out to be the very God he had to be convinced of. :lol:

Ended that w/ a preposition. sry.

I really like the ideas here in this thread. It does make sense that Baltar would be the last one as he more than any other character represents the arrogant, selfish and dishonest side of humanity, and so has the furthest to go for redemption.

It could also make sense if the parallel to Christianity is continued with respect to Baltar. Part of his function has been to take on "all the sins of the world" (like those qualities you listed) on behalf of humanity. Maybe his character had to be flawed in order for him to become the religious "leader" he seems to be now.


EDIT - thanks for merging similar threads, Genji2000 =)

[genji2000]

Aurora - I merged the thread with the existing "Baltar is the Final Cylon" thread.

not unique, then. I believe also at least one other character has a conversation with a head character.

Kara does with Leoben in Maelstrom. Just as Baltar's Head Six is not Caprica Six, Kara's Head Leoben is not Leoben.

BSG's monotheistic religion is not like christianity at all, people keep making this point, but it's not valid.
It is, however supposed to invoke the idea of christianity but is not synonymous with it. Although Baltar does have long brown hair like the paintings we have of jesus, (not, however, contemporary to him).

I agree. I think the representation of Baltar as a Jesus-like figure with long hair and a beard was done so that BSG's target audience would recognise the leader of a monotheistic religion in a polytheistic society. There was also a brief period of persecution of the monotheistic religion which was linked to Roman society's early persecution of Christianity, but I don't think Baltar's religion is meant to be Christianity.

Not sure how this would tie in with the FF being cylons if one of them is actually god, it doesn't seem right, especially when there are only a few characters who can be the final one.

The information we have (from Jamie Bamber I think) is that the ending will allow for both theists and atheists to interpret events according to their own beliefs. I think this indicates that 'god' will not make an appearance, hence no character is a god, Cylon or otherwise. It doesn't exclude twelve characters from being revered as gods by the surviving population, though.

I'm pretty sure that Baltar being the 'chosen one' discounts him from being the final the same as Kara having a 'special destiny' probably discounts her.

I share this opinion. Baltar and Kara Thrace are playing predetermined roles in the apocalypse. I think Caprica Six is too, although I don't think that role has been named. The Six in the Opera House visions is Caprica Six and she and Baltar take Hera, "the shape of things to come"/future of humanity, to protect her/it. These are the three characters who have seen head characters. To my mind, all three are beyond contemplation for the Final Cylon.

Baltar spent a long time hoping he was a cylon, to make sense of his betrayal of humanity and this was considered important at the time for his growth as the 'chosen one', ie to make him accept himself for who he is and take the religion back to the humans.

Good point.

[Aurora]

I agree. I think the representation of Baltar as a Jesus-like figure with long hair and a beard was done so that BSG's target audience would recognise the leader of a monotheistic religion in a polytheistic society. There was also a brief period of persecution of the monotheistic religion which was linked to Roman society's early persecution of Christianity, but I don't think Baltar's religion is meant to be Christianity.


I agree...it is not meant to be Christianity. But the writers have gone out of their way to make us think of Christianity when it comes to Baltar for all the reasons you mentioned. I guess it is just another religious theme like the many others from many cultures and faiths that are subtly woven into the show.

[genji2000]

Yes, but I don't think there's a parallel with Christianity. It's like the Brooklyn argument. At the end of Revelations, the final shot is of a ruined city across a waterway. Is that Manhattan they're looking at, meaning they're stood in Brooklyn on the site of a ruined Watchtower building, or do the ruins just represent some generic once great city?

I think the use of the Jesus image when Jeanne and the other Baltar Angels drape the blanket over his head symbolises the acknowledgement of a leader of a generic monotheistic religion and doesn't parallel or otherwise allude to Christianity directly. Christianity is simply the most easily recognisable monotheistic faith for the show's target audience, as New York is probably the exemplar 'city'.

So to parallel the divinity of Christ in Baltar is a step too far towards actually making it Christianity for me. I think the Writers went out of their way to make us think of a monotheistic religion in a polytheistic society, and overstepped the mark a little with the Jesus allusion. I believe that religion in the show is something the characters adhere to, not the Writers.

But, as Prolescum said, I might be wrong.

Events in the second half of 4.0 indicate that Baltar's just Baltar, same as ever, although there is that shot of him with his acolytes in the celebration montage in Revelations.

[Prolescum]

I guess it is just another religious theme like the many others from many cultures and faiths that are subtly woven into the show.

Like all genuinely good sci-fi, it asks questions that are uncomfortable in other formats, not necessarily to give answers, though.

I believe that religion in the show is something the characters adhere to, not the Writers.

exactly.

[Mayhem1703]

So then everyone here seems to think the comment of RDM that the Fifth Cylon is not in the Last Supper picture was a ruse to throw people?

[Prolescum]

So then everyone here seems to think the comment of RDM that the Fifth Cylon is not in the Last Supper picture was a ruse to throw people?
No, Baltar is in that photo.
http://remote.lohudblogs.com/files/2008/03/last-supper-bsg-2.jpg

[Wouter]

Mayhem1703; No, I think RDM was telling the truth. He has confirmed it twice, his reputation would really take a dive if he was lying about this.

[genji2000]

I think the picture was meant solely to generate interest and doesn't in itself have have any real value in terms of revelation, but I think he was genuinely caught out by the request for clarification over the empty space and despite trying to be coy about it has ultimately had to affirm that the Final Cylon is not in the photo. That piece of information is about the only value the photo has.

Although it looks nice too.

[Zompton]

Well i to am a true believer in Baltar, but i do not think he is the final Cylon. I think that the Baltar and 6 are actually communicating to each other "subconsciously" or something along those lines. I also feel that the series will end with just 6 and Baltar, how exactly i don't know, but those 2 will be the significance when the series end.

[edit] Aww crap i don't know, maybe he is the fifth, but Cylon or no Cylon, i think the show will end with 6 and Baltar. The only reason i say he probably isn't a Cylon is because i also think the show will end with one human and one Cylon, and we already know 6 is a Cylon.

[smelly_feet]

I can't wait to see Baltars ultimate purpose. But I don't think he's the final cylon. What ever his purpose is, I think it dubious.

Whatever his role is, it can't be for the good of mankind. Not if they will keep his character in line with the Baltar from the original series.

[Prolescum]

Whatever his role is, it can't be for the good of mankind. Not if they will keep his character in line with the Baltar from the original series.


To be honest, I'm not sure of that as the original Baltar was a villain, whereas the modern one is just a flawed human being. He's the one that will be held up as an example of arrogance and avarice, humility and redemption and help answer Adama's question of whether we, as a species, even deserve to survive.

With Baltar's trajectory through the series, there is ABSOLUTELY no way he's the final Cylon.

[Prolescum]

added additional stress because I could.

Has there ever been a more timely intervention?:lol:

[genji2000]

Well, I ABSOLUTELY agree with you.

[Prolescum]

Sweet.
Although, I thought it was only the sith who talk in absolutes...

[genji2000]

Who? The sinal sith? 'Snot.

[Prolescum]

That's some serious flu...
Bless.

[Zompton]

I sure do hope he is the fifth! Really i just love Baltar, and any triumphant ending for Baltar will make me happy =)

[Pnutmaster]

I sure do hope he is the fifth! Really i just love Baltar, and any triumphant ending for Baltar will make me happy =)

Surviving is enough of a triumph in my opinion. It's only sweeter when you survive to be heralded as a god of the new generation.

[The Dirt]

How is it that Baltar gets away with sleeping with every single semi-attractive to attractive woman left in the human fleet and not one has become pregnant??? How lucky is that? Maybe he's impotent - another gift from God. Meanwhile, those poor bastards Helo and Tigh must have super sperm! One boink each and presto - bun in the toaster!

[smelly_feet]

How is it that Baltar gets away with sleeping with every single semi-attractive to attractive woman left in the human fleet and not one has become pregnant??? How lucky is that? Maybe he's impotent - another gift from God. Meanwhile, those poor bastards Helo and Tigh must have super sperm! One boink each and presto - bun in the toaster!


I guess baltar got sterilized from the radiation exposure on Caprica.

Tigh has robotic sperm. Little mechanical fish under the microscope.

Helo, if he's not a cylon, I guess he was wearing a lead jock during his stay on radioactive Caprica

[IceCadavers]

This might get long but I'm going to try to give my complete perspective on this subject.

First, there's something to be said for direct clues like the predictions of the first hybrid. But that, the most notable of them, is still fairly ambiguous. As obvious as Baltar's guilt and wishes for redemption are, he isn't the only one with a pack of nasty demons. Starbuck, of course - who has still not thus far truly resolved her guilt over her mother, or Zack Adama, etc. - or perhaps Roslin, who could arguably be more "in shadow" than any other character. Her problems are arguably darkest of all - for all of Baltar's self-preserving involvement in the Cylon pursuit of the destruction of humanity, it's easy to miss her continual, deliberate and practically blind crusade for the extinction of the Cylon - something that is not touched on at all even as she confronts her other demons (The Hub). I do have more to say on Roslin, but I'll save that for a bit later.

Other prophecies are less ambiguous but more misleading. All three are supposed to be chosen to play a specific and important role. Both Starbuck and Baltar are told they would be leading humanity to its end - Roslin assumes the role of the one to lead them to their salvation. All of these you might say exempt them from being the final Cylon, but who else would you consider? Helo can't be - true, Tigh and Caprica 6 have shown that the final five can procreate with other cylons, but the fact of his child being half human is central to the entire plan, too critical. And Adama? Which? Neither could be a Cylon without the other being at least partially thus. Maybe Gaeta... his character certainly has some layers that have only been hinted at.

But again I digress. Baltar? Oh yeah. RDM said that the final cylon is not, in fact, in the last supper photo. You could regard that statement as another in the list of misleading comments from him and others involved in the show. Or perhaps the Baltar in that photo is just Caprica 6's doppelGaius, or yet another Baltar altogether - but those would not logically exempt Baltar from being in that photo either way. Another interesting theory I've seen suggests that the twelfth Cylon - whoever it is - could be in the photo anyway; if the twelve Cylon models parallel the twelve colonies of Kobol, it is feasible that there is a thirteenth model to go with the thirteenth colony.

Not sure if I will believe it just at that, but I like the idea - and I wouldn't be surprised to see RDM pull something like that out of his sleeve. I don't doubt at the very least it would have been a tempting concept for them to toss around.


But what else solidifies Baltar as the twelfth Cylon? I've read a lot of comparisons between his spiritual journey and Christian mythos. And Mormon, Muslim and Buddhist, even. I have researched numerous religions, their histories and mythologies over the years, and I would like to point out the parallels I see: True, Baltar does resemble the widespread (albeit inaccurate) Western image of Jesus Christ - it is definitely the most recognizable religious figure to Americans, and I'm willing to bet that is the point of his appearance (especially considering how quickly Baltar cleaned it up after his beginning as a spiritual leader) just as the shot of Earth at the end of season 3 was admitted to be centered on the North American continent. That image aside, these are the key similarities: the beliefs arise from or through a social underclass and/or during difficult or grim times for society on the whole on the heels of someone who can reach out to those who are put down or let down by the dominant paradigm; they face heavy reactionary criticism and even persecution, but the gain enough of a following to withstand those who fear new ideas and to become validated or established within society.

Those are the parallels I see. Of course there are differences; most of the current major religions resulted not from completely new theisms but from schisms that the original leaders had not even imagined - Jesus, Muhammad, Martin Luther, Gautama Buddha - these people were proposing changes to the beliefs they followed, not divisive controversies, let alone totally separate religions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that's what makes this series such a deep and human artwork, and what RDM was getting at when he said theists and atheists would be able to resolve the conclusion equally - a lot of the meaning is relative.

Either way, to return to my point, as ironic as such a sacrifice would be I don't think Baltar is meant to be the true Christ figure archetype, but either way with the direction his monotheistic following is going it would make more sense for him not to turn out to be a Cylon. For Baltar to be a human would be a better punctuation to the notion that "If he's only the Cylons' god then he's not much of a god, is he?"


Now I've started to get onto a train of thought about Roslin being the 12th Cylon, but this isn't the thread for that, so I just have one more thought on Baltar: Through the show they've had a lot of fun misleading us so far, I think it's safe to assume they're tossing out a red herring or twenty now. And if I was going to choose one character to be the biggest red herring, it would be Baltar. Or maybe Starbuck ;)

The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.

[genji2000]

Excellent first post. Welcome to the forum. I'd to like to read more of your ideas on other threads.

[IceCadavers]

thanks, i can already tell there's some good discussion around here
but i guess i'll go make a proper intro post now

[smelly_feet]

I don't think the show is shaped that way. Every season bulids on one another, it gets better and better cause we know a little more each season. So to say that the Final Cylon is someone who is "going" to suffer would I think cheapen the final reveal.

No I'm gonna go back to Starbuck becasue she is an equal candidate too. Both her and Batlar have had alot of suffering, and I'm gonna go back to the Kara Thrace - Agitator or Angel? promo. In that there is a scence that I won't give away until people want to watch it. Honestly I don't know why they would reveal something like that this early. She could possibly be a Cylon, it could work and I have faith that the writers will work it if they do choose to make her it. In my opinion I would like Batlar to be it, I really think it could work, they theory I posted holds alot of wait. I think people are just thinking it's the easy way out but I think that it does fit very perfectly.


I really don't think that the suffering and need for redemption has happened yet. The exact nature of the suffering, and the who and when is yet to come in the final episodes.