Investigating the Purpose of the Final Five

[Pnutmaster]

I present to you, wearied readers, a deviation from the much ballyhooed and exhausted "Who is the Final Cylon" discussion. Instead, let's see through the fog and Photoshop of Last Suppers, retconned clues, and everything else intended to distract us.

1. Where do the Final Five come from?

We don't know. The Cylon homeworld has been alluded to, but never discussed and barely mentioned. We do know, however, where the Watchtower Four grew up, and we know one of those Four is Tigh.

(From here on out, I'd like to take some creative liberties)

Now, let's assume that Tigh was born and raised on one of the Twelve Colonies (we're shooting down any Timbo-esque theories that an "original" Tigh was assassinated and cloned, or possessed at any point). Let's also assume, given their military service and appearances, that Tigh is roughly Bill Adama's age. Based on Caprica previews, we know that Bill Adama is alive before the creation of the first robotic Cylon. Therefore, Tigh was alive before the first robotic Cylon. The greater implication--a humanoid Cylon existed before the first robotic Cylon of the Twelve Colonies was ever created.

2. "The Final Five have been to Earth."

They've been to Earth? If they hitched a ride there and back again, someone would have noticed. How about, they come from Earth. If that is true, it would be fair to say they were either a creation of the inhabitants, or the inhabitants themselves. Now, what would bring them halfway across the galaxy to the boring ole Twelve Colonies...?

...well, the devastation of Earth, and, a plan.

3. What is the "plan"?

A long, long time ago, before we cared who was randomly chosen as the final Cylon, the BSG opener ended with,

AND THEY HAVE A PLAN.We know what it is, right? We've heard whispers of it from time to time, talk of joining the species; the birth of a new race cleansed of the sins of its fathers. It's been called God's Plan, God's will. On that note, think of all the things that have been called "God's will" (the destruction of the Twelve Colonies, Baltar's actions, encounter at the Eye of Jupiter, etc).

God's Plan, then, is twofold. a) Destroy humanity; b) Leave behind a handful of survivors, interbreed them with Cylons and create God's new generation of children.

The Cylons completed Part A, no problems. Part B gave them some difficulty. They tried forcing humans and Cylons to interbreed, but it didn't work. Fortunately for them, one fleet of humans managed to escape and provide a successful breeding ground. Very fortunate.

Who happened to be aboard that ragtag fleet? (yeah, yeah, I'm not the first to point this out :p) The Watchtower Four (and maybe one more, lol).

4. Why do they give a frak about "the plan"?

I'm assuming, like most of the other Cylons, the Final Five are religious. Religious zealots carry out God's will.

Do we have any evidence that the Watchtower Four are religious? I say, look at Baltar's sermons. Tory, Tigh, and Tyrol are attracted to them. Besides, someone has to fit the shoes of the Five Priests.

Here's a scenario: Earth is destroyed. God is pissed. God says, "you stupid bastards ruined everything." The Five Priests say, "we're so sorry, Your Benevolence, how can we ever make it up to you?" God says, "I need you guys to hit the restart button, and uh, make sure the thing doesn't crash on startup."

5. What is the purpose of the Final Five?

To play their part. To carry out God's will. To ensure the survival of the human fleet, and the birth of God's new generation. To see it all end, and make way for the new.

But I could be wrong.

[Neakal]

Quite an interesting analysis. And I too find it more interesting what the Final Five are rather than who the last one is to be honest. On a side note, your explanation of God and the Final Five on Earth gave me the image of God scolding the Final Five like they were naughty children :p Anyway, back to the point.

What is your take of Caprica-Six's need to protect Hera while they are in the Opera House which is also where the "higher forms" of the Final Five dwelled. Are the Final Five a threat? Head-Baltar, Roslin, Caprica and Sharon were all there to protect Hera so who or what is the source of threat if not the Final Five.

Connectedly, something I noticed in the two instances where the Final Five appeared in the Opera House. Both in Rapture and Crossroads, the mood (as well as the music) becomes tense, creepy and opressive. In Crossroads we hear the regular Opera House musical becoming discordant as the Final Five appear and I personally would call what Caprica-Six saw a nightmare rather than a dream. Maybe it is a farfetched look but I remember what Head-Six says about how life is a melody and how every note fits God's plan. If the appearance of the Final Five brings forth discord to the "music", could this be symbolically related to the possibility that the Final Five have fallen out of God's favour. Perhaps because of Earth (like you explained) or perhaps somewhere along the line they decided to have their own Plan? What is your take in that?

[genji2000]

I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion. Although we haven't seen any specific evidence yet, each of the Watchtower Four were in positions of influence within the surviving ranks of the humans and have made significant contributions to their survival, including Tory, who seemed not to give a jot for a moment (she rejoins the WTF during the handshake scene).

A few points on your analysis:

1 & 2. The Rebel Hybrid told Kara Thrace that the Five "come from the home of the Thirteenth," which is quickly identified (correctly or not) as meaning the Final Five come from Earth, home of the Thirteenth Tribe, so it's not such a creative liberty. However, it may mean that they travelled to Earth with the Thirteenth Tribe.

There has also been a mention (probably by Joe, I don't remember exactly) that RDM has stated that the finale will "deal with" the point that human life began on Earth, not Kobol.

3. The news of the BSG TV movie (to be filmed imminently and broadcast after the series finale) seems to imply that "the plan" was to eradicate humanity entirely, and the survival of the RTF and the resistance on the colonies was not part of the plan. Whatever the case, the title sequence of the first three seasons referred to the Cylon Plan, which is not necessarily the same thing as the Final Five's purpose, and not necessarily the same thing as God's Plan. So I would think that "a) destroy humanity" is the Cylon plan (which they frakked up and we shouldn't have been told "they have a plan" for three seasons when it was ruined before the end of the Miniseries), and b) protect the survivors and begin the regeneration of the human race with Cylons is God's Plan.

Which is why I agree with your conclusion. The Final Five fit in between. I think their purpose is to ensure the continuation of the cycle of time, which occurs as a result of mankind's inevitable self-destruction (having created the Cylon in the first place) and directly drives the regeneration of the species.

On the other hand, the Final Five may have been created originally to ensure the cycle is broken.

4. I also like to fit the Final Five into the roles of the five priests, but I wouldn't call them zealots. I'd rather think of them as shepherds. I certainly don't think the passing interest some of them have shown in Baltar's sermons qualifies them as zealots.

5. What is the purpose of the Final Five?

To play their part. To carry out God's will. To ensure the survival of the human fleet, and the birth of God's new generation. To see it all end, and make way for the new.

I agree, inasmuch as I hope their purpose is along these lines.

Quite an interesting analysis. And I too find it more interesting what the Final Five are rather than who the last one is to be honest.

I totally agree. The thing about the pursuit of the identity of the Final Cylon though is that it has a clear target and you either agree with the evidence for this or that character or you don't.

What is your take of Caprica-Six's need to protect Hera while they are in the Opera House which is also where the "higher forms" of the Final Five dwelled. Are the Final Five a threat? Head-Baltar, Roslin, Caprica and Sharon were all there to protect Hera so who or what is the source of threat if not the Final Five.

Possibly, the Final Five were there to oversee events and ensure that the protection of Hera (symbolising the future of the species) is passed over to the one true religion (breaking the cycle). Your alternative - that the Final Five are a threat - indicates that their purpose might be to ensure Cylons and humans do not interbreed, and that the regeneration of the human race is pure human.

Or maybe pure Cylon?

If the appearance of the Final Five brings forth discord to the "music", could this be symbolically related to the possibility that the Final Five have fallen out of God's favour. Perhaps because of Earth (like you explained) or perhaps somewhere along the line they decided to have their own Plan? What is your take in that?

I don't know about them having fallen out of God's favour... it may be so for no reason other than to express the threat you speak of, or possibly to emphasise their religious nature (as with Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms - or do you mean truly discordant?).

[13th_Cylon]

1. Where do the Final Five come from?

This is an interesting question for me. Can someone help me work out a few things?

(1) Cylons were created by humans to be robot helpers. (ie toasters) So prior to the first toaster being created there were no cylons?

(2) Prior to the cylon war there were no skin jobs ?

(3) The skin jobs were created by the toasters after the end of the first cylon war during their 40 year absence.

(4) If cylons were only able to progress to human form since the last cylon war (ie the last 40 or so years) then the final five must have travelled to earth in the last 40 years. But they were in the 12 colonies during this time


(5) If the final 5 existed prior to this then are they cylons? Arent cylons the mechanical toasters created by the humans and then the skinjobs created by those very toasters?

(6) Why does God care about toasters?

[genji2000]

5. As with five of the twelve Cylon models suddenly being declared "fundamentally different", it appears that the same five have been around an awful lot longer than the skinjobs, or even the toasters.

6. God cares about everyone.

[13th_Cylon]

Well if the final five were around before the "toasters" then how can they be cylon?

[genji2000]

I don't know. I'm sure there'll be some amazing explanation like "but what does it mean to be a Cylon?"

The whole "fundamentally different" thing is the worst aspect of the show for me. I think that's why the Significant Seven were forbidden from thinking about the Final Five. I think it's best not to think about it.

[13th_Cylon]

mmm... i think ur right.

[Neakal]

Possibly, the Final Five were there to oversee events and ensure that the protection of Hera (symbolising the future of the species) is passed over to the one true religion (breaking the cycle). Your alternative - that the Final Five are a threat - indicates that their purpose might be to ensure Cylons and humans do not interbreed, and that the regeneration of the human race is pure human.

Or maybe pure Cylon?

Could explain why or how Tigh was able to breed with a member of the Significant Seven despite being Cylons. For whatever reason they may not agree the idea of unifying both species.


I don't know about them having fallen out of God's favour... it may be so for no reason other than to express the threat you speak of, or possibly to emphasise their religious nature (as with Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms - or do you mean truly discordant?).

Well if you are talking about the music, I mean truly discordant. In Rapture, you can explain the omnious tone as they were still mysterious but the vision in Crossroads Pt II (Caprica-Six's) starts off with the regular Opera House music (the one we hear in Kobol's Last Gleaming Pt II) but is supressed by a high-pitched sound with occasional glimpses of the Watchtower-music when the Final Five appears. I know it is a hard position but can't help thiking that the nightmarish feel of Six's vision has a symbolic meaning on what the Final Five are.

[Prolescum]

Was the 'plan' ever actually clarified on screen?
I'm of the opinion that the S7 are as much pawns in this game as the toasters, and the plan, (whatever it is), was set in motion long before the first cylon war, (hence the desolate earth, the final five 'come from the home of the Thirteenth' etc). Perhaps the reason for the first cylon war wasn't really about slavery as it is assumed, (not sure if this is the consensus or 'fact'), but the first attempt to destroy/rejuvenate/replace/co-opt/rebirth/blahblah humanity*

*please include cylon in that word as I can't think of the right word to encompass the, er, sentient-ness thing, er... long day.

If I'm right about nothing else, I think I'm right when I say, adama is tied to this plan like a new-born puppy to its mother.

[Pnutmaster]

...it may mean that they travelled to Earth with the Thirteenth Tribe.

I did not consider that. It would make sense if the Final Five were the Five Priests, and the Eye of Jupiter was a marker built by the Thirteenth Tribe on its way to Earth. Reminds me of an abandoned Comprehensive Theory :p

There has also been a mention (probably by Joe, I don't remember exactly) that RDM has stated that the finale will "deal with" the point that human life began on Earth, not Kobol.Eh. I wonder how they'll tackle that. As it stands, I see BSG continuity as this:

Pre-Cycle

Life is sparked on Earth. Intelligent life evolves into humans. Humans build civilization. Humanoid Cylons are developed. Civil war erupts on Earth, planet is devastated (great flood). Humans leave Earth, wander the desert of space, stumble upon Kobol.

OR, alternatively

...Humans build civilization. Civil war erupts on Earth, planet is devastated (great flood). Humans leave Earth, wander the desert of space, stumble upon Kobol. Humanoid Cylons are developed.

Commence Cycle

Whatever the case, the title sequence of the first three seasons referred to the Cylon Plan, which is not necessarily the same thing as the Final Five's purpose, and not necessarily the same thing as God's Plan. So I would think that "a) destroy humanity" is the Cylon plan (which they frakked up and we shouldn't have been told "they have a plan" for three seasons when it was ruined before the end of the Miniseries), and b) protect the survivors and begin the regeneration of the human race with Cylons is God's Plan.I've come to believe that "there are many copies...and they have a plan" referred to the Final Five, operating in secret.

Otherwise, I agree with your point. It is clear that the Cylon plan failed. Where their secondary goal of interbreeding human and Cylon originated, I cannot say. However, we should differentiate the Cylon Plan with God's Plan. The Significant Seven know nothing of the Final Five for a reason.

On the other hand, the Final Five may have been created originally to ensure the cycle is broken.That would play into Neakal's line of thought.

Was the 'plan' ever actually clarified on screen?

We never had a Cylon-Baltar sitdown where they discussed the Cylon Plan in detail, but gathering tidbits here and there, we know what it was. God's Plan is the real focus, I think.

[BSGfan-atic]

One thing that I hope gets explained in more detail is the whole Cylon religion. If they were created by humans on the 12 Colonies, and only started making humanoid models in the years between the wars, how did they manage to create such a complex mythology? If it was because of the influence of the F5, then there must be more copies of the F5 running around, because the locations of at least four of the F5 were known before the war, and at least one of them, Tigh, absolutely hated Cylons. I don't think he would do the Cylons any favors by explaining their role in God's Big Plan to them. Some sort of BSG Encyclopedia for the Reimagined Series really needs to be put together.

[Wouter]

4. Why do they give a frak about "the plan"?

I'm assuming, like most of the other Cylons, the Final Five are religious. Religious zealots carry out God's will.

Do we have any evidence that the Watchtower Four are religious? I say, look at Baltar's sermons. Tory, Tigh, and Tyrol are attracted to them. Besides, someone has to fit the shoes of the Five Priests.

Tory, OK. Tigh, attracted to Baltar!?? To strangle him, perhaps, certainly not to listen to his sermons. Speaking about strangling, that's what Tyrol nearly did to Baltar, whose followers he calls "nutcases" (with justification, IMO). OK, he did extent his hand to Baltar - but not after a sermon. Baltar had, seemingly sincere for once, offered condolences for Cally to a very lonely Tyrol. That was a nice moment, but I think that a conclusion that Tyrol is now following Baltar is very premature. His son, OTOH, that's a real Baltar-groupie. Can't be quiet unless he hears Baltars voice on the radio :D

As for the final five, I suspect they may be made by the 13th tribe, or in fact be from the 13th tribe (last remnant, perhaps). And other than Tory, they don't seem very religiously inclined, though Tyrol did seek council from "brother Cavil" and his parents definitely were very religious.

Not all known Cylon models are religious, either. Cavil certainly not, and I suspect the same about the Simons and about Boomer (contrary to most or all other 8s).

[13th_Cylon]

1. Where do the Final Five come from?

We don't know. The Cylon homeworld has been alluded to, but never discussed and barely mentioned. We do know, however, where the Watchtower Four grew up, and we know one of those Four is Tigh.

I'm still frustrated (yes i know its only a show but i have lots of spare time) over this question.

It seems that the centurions (original toasters)are not smart enough by themselves to develop organic cylons versions of themselves. So it had to be someone else that intervened alot earlier than when the S7 were created. Could there have been a renegade group of humans that created the F5 hundreds if not thousands of years ago? Could it have been that a traitor in the Lords of Kobol (akin to a Judas) created the F4 in defiance of the wishes of the others and the plan was to destroy the other Lords children (ie humans) in revenge and replace with a synthetic cylon race. I vote for this option.

There needs to be a direct procreation link between what we know as cylons now (ie toasters and skinjobs) and the F4 otherwise the F4 cannot be called cylons. They can be synthetic lifeforms but you would have to give them another name. If the F4 infiltrated human society and were responcible for creating the first toasters then that provides the link.

So to make it valid to call the F4 actually cylons and have been already to earth and have a plan i suggest the following. (note this is all kamala inspired speculation)

(1) Lords of Kobol create humans on earth.

(2) There is a traitor Lord of Kobol who successfully makes himself synthetic transferring his consciousness to a sythetic body. He then creates synthetic lifeforms in his own image. These are the F4.

(3) The F4 secretly infiltrate human society and create first toasters under the guise that they are robots that will service humanity. The reality is that they are offspring of the F4.

(4) Under the direction of the Traitror Lord of Kobol , the F4 cordinate the destruction of earth as was done on Caprica

(5) Surviving humans flee to the stars and start the 12 colonies.

(6) The traitor Lord of Kobol plus the F4 follow them.

Maybe the final cylon is actually this Lord of Kobol, the betrayer, the cylon God?

How does the need to create a human/cylon offspring fit in? Well the Final Cylon (Lord of Kobol traitor/cylon god whatever you want to call him) wants his new sythetic children to be able to reproduce naturally and needs humans to make this work. I still think the final cylon is Roslin (despite the last supper pic) as she is the one that wanted new offspring. She stole hera and protected her.

Thus i suggest the purpose of the F4 is to carry out the wishes of the cylon god (aka Final Cylon) which is to detroy humantiy and replace with a new cylon humanity. All linking back to a nasty disagreement between the Lords of Kobol

How does the cycle repeat?

The F4 eventually have a falling out with the cylon god and become betrayers.


This actually is akin to fact that Battlestar is based on Mormonism who believe that you start human and become your own god, you get your own planet and you have your own following and the cycle goes on and on and on.

[GoldWolf]

*snip*

Where their secondary goal of interbreeding human and Cylon originated, I cannot say.

Personally, I think their secondary goal was to procreate among themselves, as God commanded. When it (initially) appeared that biolon-biolon progeny wasn't possible, THAT'S when they started the interbreeding idea.

Or, alternately (but not quite as sound an argument), when they found that their Plan of obliterating humankind didn't work, they took on the ancient Roman practice of conquering other countries by having children with the natives of that country. Those Roman/native children were then Roman citizens, and *bingo*, in one generation, the Romans ruled! Er, substitute "cylon" for "Roman".

[Pnutmaster]

Tory, OK. Tigh, attracted to Baltar!?? To strangle him, perhaps, certainly not to listen to his sermons. Speaking about strangling, that's what Tyrol nearly did to Baltar, whose followers he calls "nutcases" (with justification, IMO). OK, he did extent his hand to Baltar - but not after a sermon. Baltar had, seemingly sincere for once, offered condolences for Cally to a very lonely Tyrol. That was a nice moment, but I think that a conclusion that Tyrol is now following Baltar is very premature. His son, OTOH, that's a real Baltar-groupie. Can't be quiet unless he hears Baltars voice on the radio :D

As for the final five, I suspect they may be made by the 13th tribe, or in fact be from the 13th tribe (last remnant, perhaps). And other than Tory, they don't seem very religiously inclined, though Tyrol did seek council from "brother Cavil" and his parents definitely were very religious.

Not all known Cylon models are religious, either. Cavil certainly not, and I suspect the same about the Simons and about Boomer (contrary to most or all other 8s).

True, not the strongest evidence. I'm only suggesting that deep within their forgotten selves, the Four may be religiously inclined.

In my eyes, it is their religious obedience that brought them to the Twelve Colonies. Perhaps "God" spoke to them, as Head Six speaks to Baltar, and laid out his Plan. Then again, do the Final Five have an agenda of their own? If they are immortal, as the Aaron Douglass slip would have us believe, maybe they've been the ones manipulating events for thousands of years...

[Prolescum]

Perhaps "God" spoke to them, as Head Six speaks to Baltar, and laid out his Plan. Then again, do the Final Five have an agenda of their own? If they are immortal, as the Aaron Douglass slip would have us believe, maybe they've been the ones manipulating events for thousands of years...

A (rough) translation of the intro music is "Oh all-protecting lord, please guide our intellects, so that we may proceed in the right direction towards enlightenment"

[genji2000]

He's not doing a very good job on this forum.

[Prolescum]

We have to redeem ourselves first.

[genji2000]

What, like give up berating nuggets and stop highlighting the flaws of pointless celebrities?

[Prolescum]

Both of those are virtues.
I meant serious contemplation of the 'chip in the head/ghost of christmas past' theories... :D

[timbo]

Both of those are virtues.
I meant serious contemplation of the 'chip in the head/ghost of christmas past' theories... :D

Amen brother Prolescum.

In the last few days, I have realised that if you accept the WTF as cylons, BSG is like a machine with no oil in it. All the parts are grating against each other, making a terrible noise and creating friction. If you believe that the WTF are or were human, the whole thing runs smoothly, and makes a kind of poetic sense.

Redemption usually comes at a price. You have five months left. Don´t waste them.

[genji2000]

There's a reason for this.

http://i315.photobucket.com/albums/ll480/genji2000_photo/AntiTimbo.jpg?t=1219426166

[Prolescum]

There's a reason for this.

http://i315.photobucket.com/albums/ll480/genji2000_photo/AntiTimbo.jpg?t=1219426166

And lo, he did ariseth in the most unlikely order, and, without wait nor wonder, walked boldy into the light, reflecting the signs of the seven seals (nee cylons) yonder and heralding the coming retort...

[Pnutmaster]

lmao@at the point count.

Do not heed the words of the Timbo! He is the great deceiver, the twister of theories!

Anyway, are were satisfied with a one sentenced summary of the purpose of the Final Five? I was hoping for continuous discussion :/

[genji2000]

I've forgotten what it was. Remind us humble readers, would you? If you've sussed the purpose of the Final Five then we can all relax coz we don't need to watch 4.5.

Sorry for hijacking the thread if that's your point. Maybe not constantly hijacking everyone's thread is the way to redemption.

[Pnutmaster]

lol, it's not that. I don't mind the visits from Timbo, or the hijackings. I may have started the thread, but it's not mine by ownership :P

Everything we have on the Final Five is very generalized. If we agree on the general purpose of the Final Five, can we start speculating how exactly it will play out in the episodes to come? More importantly, do we want to?

[genji2000]

Well, that was my point in supporting the Final Cylon speculums - so we didn't spoil the more important questions, like the porpoise of the Final Five, for ourselves, but if you gotta theory, wap it out. TPTB seem arrogantly confident that we're never going to guess it so I say give it a go.

[timbo]

666 - That is seriously scary.

Pnutmaster - sorry for messing with your thread. (Although saying "I don´t mind a visit from Timbo" kinda makes it sound like your getting a visit from the winged messenger of death.) Wait a minute. 666. What are you guys trying to do to me.

And Prolescum who are the three guys in the pic - is it Muse?

[genji2000]

666 - That is seriously scary.

I think the message is that the Tigh Is Not A Cylon theory is the work of the anti-Cylon. We must not follow that path. You are the harbinger of death, Timbo Thrace, the angel of chaos. You will lead us all to our downfall.

[Prolescum]

who are the three guys in the pic - is it Muse?
it's AdultDave, (http://myspace.com/therealadultdave) a non-productive folky free for all. Don't really like Muse.
I think the message is that the Tigh Is Not A Cylon theory is the work of the anti-Cylon

Yes we should avoid the trap and ignore the theory lest it have an effect on the collective unconscience....
Tigh is a Cylon.

I don't think we can determine the FF's general purpose with supposition to be honest. There's not enough info to be able to tell at this point.
The Cylons had a plan, it doesn't say that it was theirs or originated with them.
There are 12 models but despite being aware that 5 of them were unknown, the S7 knew about them from before the holocaust. How does this tally with their actions? If the 5 were known to be unknown but important to the future of the Cylons, it was quite lucky that they all made it to galactica eventually, no?
so knowing that the known unknowns were known at such an early stage, might infer that not all of the models, (IMO), have/had all the information and that they might not all have been created equally despite giving this impression to us 'outsiders'...
Maybe.

[Pnutmaster]

@Timbo: A Final Five-Timbo flavored theory for your amusement. It explains the infighting to come in the final episode! The Fleet learns about the existence of the chipped Final Five and a wild chiphunt ensues! "You were on New Caprica with me, too! You have a chip in your head, I know it!" Pewpewpew, people die, chips are fried, and the audience goes, "6 months for this? what the frak!"

@Prolescum: You certainly get the impression that the Cavils know more than they'd ever admit (like Dr.Zaius in Planet of the Apes!) Maybe the upcoming movie will explore this.

[genji2000]

I don't think we can determine the FF's general purpose with supposition to be honest. There's not enough info to be able to tell at this point.

My understanding is that we have all the information, we just don't know how to read it. The clues to the Final Cylon are all supposedly in place. I think we should be able to discern the purpose of the Final Five as realistically as we can identify the Final Cylon. Some guesses are:


They are supposed to guide the surviving humans through the apocalypse to enable the rebirth/renewal of the race (i.e. they are factored into the cycle, probably as the Five Priests).
They are supposed to guide the surviving humans and Cylons through the apocalypse (and mankind is descended from this cross-bred race, which I kind of like because you'd need some kind of genetic resilience to avoid inbred mutations).
They were created at the end of the previous cycle in order to break it next time around (so they're working against the cycle).
They're nothing to do with the cycle and everything to do with the twelve models (perhaps the Cylons created the humanoid models to infiltrate and help destroy humanity, but when the first five models were activated they quickly came to the conclusion that this would be against god's plan, so they were aborted and the next seven models had some built-in error-handling to prevent this, and that has now failed in the Twos, Sixes and Eights).The Cylons had a plan, it doesn't say that it was theirs or originated with them.

True, and maybe the Cylons' plan was indeed god's plan, as Pnutmaster suggested. I think the main point in the plan was that procreation was god's commandment. From that you could surmise that the creation of the humanoid models was intended specifically to enable Cylons to reproduce by natural means, the mechanoid models of course lacking the necessary apparatus. Another epic fail on their part in terms of having a plan.

There are 12 models but despite being aware that 5 of them were unknown, the S7 knew about them from before the holocaust. How does this tally with their actions? If the 5 were known to be unknown but important to the future of the Cylons, it was quite lucky that they all made it to galactica eventually, no?
so knowing that the known unknowns were known at such an early stage, might infer that not all of the models, (IMO), have/had all the information and that they might not all have been created equally despite giving this impression to us 'outsiders'...
Maybe.

Quite. On the other hand, it might be gibberish.

They knew there were twelve models. They were forbidden to think about the Final Five. If they were forbidden to think about them then they wouldn't consider what they were, whether they were in someway "fundamentally different" to themselves, or whether they were important to the Cylons' future. They would act according to their programming, but again (as with the Boomer/Caprica Six conversion of Cylon society, and the rebels' alliance(s) with the human) when D'Anna came along this subproc broke down and she began to think about them, and once she did, so did a number of other models. All of which was undoubtedly inevitable once you give machines free will, and which (i.e. thinking about the Final Five) may well have triggered their activation.

Which would be nice.

[timbo]

Damn, I thought I sensed that a few of you were wavering, but it looks like common sense has prevailed again.

Back to the final five. The question keeps coming back to in exactly what way are they fundamentally different. I think if all you clever guys think up all the ways in which they could be different, it might throw something up. Like who made them, are they benign, why are the other 7 in awe of them, .....etc.

Myself, I still have a feeling that four of the last five will turn out to be people like Gaeta (refused to beg in the airlock - not afraid to die), Dualla, Cottle and one other, all people who have gently worked for the well being of the fleet.

[Prolescum]

They knew there were twelve models. They were forbidden to think about the Final Five. If they were forbidden to think about them then they wouldn't consider what they were, whether they were in someway "fundamentally different" to themselves, or whether they were important to the Cylons' future.


If they know there are 12 models, then surely only seeing 7 models whenever they venture out the front door causes them to think about them, or is it perhaps some kind of programmed double-think, and if so, does this point to the plan not being of, at least, skinjob, origin?

Myself, I still have a feeling that four of the last five will turn out to be people like Gaeta (refused to beg in the airlock - not afraid to die), Dualla, Cottle and one other, all people who have gently worked for the well being of the fleet.
Really?
do you have a complete and succinct theory as to why, or is it just from the gut? I'm genuinely interested as to how that conclusion was reached.

[timbo]

Really?
do you have a complete and succinct theory as to why, or is it just from the gut? I'm genuinely interested as to how that conclusion was reached.

Well, as you know, I dont think the WTF are cylons, so I am still looking for five. Gaeta´s refusing to beg, Dualla being spared by the Cylon boarders (I bet her eye glowed red when they got to her), Doc´s lack of concern for the effects of smoking - flimsy I know. Ok pretyy much gut feelings really.

[Prolescum]

Well, as you know, I dont think the WTF are cylons, so I am still looking for five. Gaeta´s refusing to beg, Dualla being spared by the Cylon boarders (I bet her eye glowed red when they got to her), Doc´s lack of concern for the effects of smoking - flimsy I know. Ok pretyy much gut feelings really.


I see. I have some rennies if you need them...


How does Gaeta refusing to beg make him a cylon (for example)? It shows he's well-hard? Is this a really really long joke about the final cylon being Chuck Norris?

[genji2000]

If they know there are 12 models, then surely only seeing 7 models whenever they venture out the front door causes them to think about them, or is it perhaps some kind of programmed double-think, and if so, does this point to the plan not being of, at least, skinjob, origin?

Well ultimately it did lead to (some of) them thinking about the F5, but their programming prevailed for a while.

I dunno about the origin of the plan. Tell me what it is and I'll take a stab. What's your opinion?

[Prolescum]

Well ultimately it did lead to (some of) them thinking about the F5, but their programming prevailed for a while.

I dunno about the origin of the plan. Tell me what it is and I'll take a stab. What's your opinion?

Yeh, I'm not sure TBH, but they know they were programmed not to think about the FF, which is odd (possibly a revelation chip...) which must have led to some serious discussion in relation to their plan, and whether it has missing bits, (or bits they aren't privy to).
I definitely think it's about the re-invigoration of humanity of some sort, not the birth of a new species, (there's really not that much difference between skinjob and human and the differences diminish very rapidly as the show goes on).
Am I daft?

[genji2000]

Am I daft?

In relation to this discussion or generally?

Yeh, I'm not sure TBH, but they know they were programmed not to think about the FF, which is odd (possibly a revelation chip...) which must have led to some serious discussion in relation to their plan, and whether it has missing bits, (or bits they aren't privy to).
I definitely think it's about the re-invigoration of humanity of some sort, not the birth of a new species, (there's really not that much difference between skinjob and human and the differences diminish very rapidly as the show goes on).

Well yeah, there would have been monster discussions about the plan when Caprica Six and Boomer were preaching their message, but we weren't privy to them.

I'm not sure the Cylon plan is to reinvigorate mankind. I think it's just about procreation. I think that was the point of building the humanoids in the first place.

And I agree about the similarities between humans and Cylons being more important than the differences.

[Prolescum]

In relation to this discussion or generally?

whatever you have may or may not have to get off your chest:thumbsup:


Well yeah, there would have been monster discussions about the plan when Caprica Six and Boomer were preaching their message, but we weren't privy to them.

I'm not sure the Cylon plan is to reinvigorate mankind. I think it's just about procreation. I think that was the point of building the humanoids in the first place.


yeh that's what I meant, but that the plan goes back to the new caprica show's time period and the dislike of the decadent society by the monotheists and the graystone-adama connection.
Not a complete idea, just gestating...

And I agree about the similarities between humans and Cylons being more important than the differences.

Absolutely.

[genji2000]

whatever you may or may not have to get off your chest:thumbsup:

Of course not. Don't be daft. er...

yeh that's what I meant, but that the plan goes back to the new caprica show's time period and the dislike of the decadent society by the monotheists and the graystone-adama connection.
Not a complete idea, just gestating...

Right, so the opening captions should have read:

THE CYLONS WERE CREATED BY MAN
THEY EVOLVED
THEY REBELLED
THERE ARE MANY COPIES
AND NOW THEY HAVE ANOTHER PLAN
THIS ONE'S A WINNER
THEY'RE SURE OF IT

Gotcha, I think. Your earlier post mentioned the "reinvigoration" of mankind. How about "rejuvenation"? Getting rid of the decadent deadwood, skimming off the scum, etc. (no offence).

Makes the Cylons kind of benevolent in a way. Of course it remains to be seen how corrupt colonial society is, but in the way they used 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. in BSG for social commentary they could do something similar in Caprica with the generation of fear in a society by its government. I don't know much about Caprica - only referred to the wiki for discussions about the creation of the Cylons.

It's a good idea, and would have an element of WTF for the series finale. The Cylons were only trying to help. lol, etc. They could pull it off, too, I reckon if, as you say, certain models or even just the mechs weren't privy to the objectives and believed the plan was to eradicate mankind. It would certainly explain three seasons' worth of "AND THEY HAVE A PLAN".

EDIT: I spotted your search. Not trying to be a smartarse but I wondered if you were after something like this (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=19269#post19269).

2nd EDIT: more fool me. I thought it was for something (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=25045#post25045) worthwhile.

[Prolescum]

Of course not. Don't be daft. er...



Right, so the opening captions should have read:

THE CYLONS WERE CREATED BY MAN
THEY EVOLVED
THEY REBELLED
THERE ARE MANY COPIES
AND NOW THEY HAVE ANOTHER PLAN
THIS ONE'S A WINNER
THEY'RE SURE OF IT

Gotcha, I think. Your earlier post mentioned the "reinvigoration" of mankind. How about "rejuvenation"? Getting rid of the decadent deadwood, skimming off the scum, etc. (no offence).

Makes the Cylons kind of benevolent in a way. Of course it remains to be seen how corrupt colonial society is, but in the way they used 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. in BSG for social commentary they could do something similar in Caprica with the generation of fear in a society by its government. I don't know much about Caprica - only referred to the wiki for discussions about the creation of the Cylons.

It's a good idea, and would have an element of WTF for the series finale. The Cylons were only trying to help. lol, etc. They could pull it off, too, I reckon if, as you say, certain models or even just the mechs weren't privy to the objectives and believed the plan was to eradicate mankind. It would certainly explain three seasons' worth of "AND THEY HAVE A PLAN".

EDIT: I spotted your search. Not trying to be a smartarse but I wondered if you were after something like this (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=19269#post19269).

2nd EDIT: more fool me. I thought it was for something (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=25045#post25045) worthwhile.

he he. Not taken by the idea, then?
I seriously doubt if it's Cavil either. There are clues left about everyone so it's difficult to sort through the chaff.
I certainly haven't decided who i think it is, I've read quite a few of the theories and can see logic behind a few, but still think surprises lay ahead.

[genji2000]

So who do you think the original programmer might be? I've only seen Adama's name mentioned. I wonder if Baltar might be a good choice. I'm not sure what clues there are to indicate who the programmer is.

[Prolescum]

It might be *making it up as I go along* a Branch Davidian style cult with end of the world tendencies infiltrates the original lab and adds a few lines of code dictating their ideas and concepts within the framework of personal freedom, allowing for an ultimate rejuvenation of the human spirit (whether in human or cylon form as the distinctions between the person and the soul are semantic) . Or something.

[genji2000]

Damn. It was going so well, too.

[Prolescum]

It's a flimsy case, I'm afraid. I think I've been programmed not to think about it too hard.
I do think the answer will definitely spill over to the Caprica show and has something to do with Adama, (not that he's the final either), as in, he'll be the one to piece it all together for the viewers 7 minutes from the end, what with his history an' all.

[genji2000]

I don't think the programmer is necessarily the Final Cylon.

I do think, going back a few posts, you had "a good thing" going on.

Yes I hope there are links with Caprica, but I'm sure that we won't need the new show to explain anything about BSG.

[Prolescum]

I don't think the programmer is necessarily the Final Cylon.

Agreed. The final Cylon is still a Cylon therefore, part of the plan proper.

I do think, going back a few posts, you had "a good thing" going on.


which one?

Yes I hope there are links with Caprica, but I'm sure that we won't need the new show to explain anything about BSG.

Yeh I reckon we'll get the answers we need but the in depth analysis of it from Caprica.

[genji2000]

which one?

This one (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=25037#post25037) and this one (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=25042#post25042).

[Prolescum]

good save.
I do reckon that the plan involves both the humans and Cylons despite the earlier assumptions by all involved, (the characters that is), as in, they were manipulated by their own programming on purpose to bring humans back to the path of righteousness and in the process add a new level of sophistication (and genes) ready for the next cycle

[genji2000]

Plus you can tie that into Jamie Bamber's assertion that you can read it from both a theist and an atheist perspective. Maybe it's god's plan, maybe it's just that the Cylons believe it's god's plan.

[Prolescum]

Plus you can tie that into Jamie Bamber's assertion that you can read it from both a theist and an atheist perspective. Maybe it's god's plan, maybe it's just that the Cylons believe it's god's plan.
Can you post a link for that? I don't know much beyond the show itself and opinion here.
I think that might tie in quite nicely, then. Perhaps this is the genesis of the cylon's civil war; one group wishing to ignore the fate of the final five as per their programming, the others questing directly to find out what it all means...

[genji2000]

Can you post a link for that?

Can't find one. Help, someone? I'll keep looking. In the meantime here's a photo of Helfer I haven't seen before.

http://i315.photobucket.com/albums/ll480/genji2000_photo/BlueSix.jpg?t=1219529601

EDIT: Chore. I scoured the Internet and came up with nothing. Fortunately, Wouter's posts came to the rescue again. This (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=22022#post22022) is it.

I don't know much beyond the show itself and opinion here.
I think that might tie in quite nicely, then. Perhaps this is the genesis of the cylon's civil war; one group wishing to ignore the fate of the final five as per their programming, the others questing directly to find out what it all means...

Yes definitely the civil war and as a by-product New Caprica too, inasmuch as the Cylons developing.

[timbo]

I still think this way of approaching things might reveal something: who is a tool and who is an agent.

If four of the five are activated but don´t know what their purpose is, they must be tools. So, their agent must be the fifth or an outside entity (human?) or God.

I think the cylons were the tools of the initial holocaust, but not the agent. I think there was a human hand behind all of this. The more we know of Caprica, the more likely this seems.

Okay, Okay, I know none of this is new, but I just wanted to join in. Can I have those Rennies now please.

[genji2000]

We know from Caprica that monotheism is practised by some humans before the creation of the Cylons, and that this religion is what the Cylons adopted, so in that sense there is a human hand behind - er, well behind something. I would tend to think that 'the plan' is derived from the one true god, which is to say the Cylons' belief in god.

I don't totally follow your tool/agent distinction. Merrian-Webster defines 'agent' as "a means or instrument by which a guiding intelligence achieves a result," which I think is more how you define 'tool' isn't it? Your 'tool' acts according to its programming without knowledge of the overall plan, whereas your 'agent' determines the plan and controls the tool. The dictionary defines 'tool' as "one that is used or manipulated by another," which fits.

That aside, your 'agent' is the original programmer, right? It's possible that this person is the Final Cylon but not certain. If he is then he or she being the agent provides another clue to his/her identity, but does it help determine what the purpose of the Final Five is?

[timbo]

We know from Caprica that monotheism is practised by some humans before the creation of the Cylons, and that this religion is what the Cylons adopted, so in that sense there is a human hand behind - er, well behind something. I would tend to think that 'the plan' is derived from the one true god, which is to say the Cylons' belief in god.

This is interesting. I didn´t know that. The bit about some humans practicing monotheism. Perhaps the religious fanatics among these believe in killing all infidels (non-monotheists) in a similar way to islamic extremists. Fuelled by this level of fanaticism, there probably isn´t much difference between killing thousands (the twin towers) and killing millions (the cylon attack on the colonies (instigated by humans)). This would be a similar twist to what has gone on throughout the show - changing the normal roles.

I don't totally follow your tool/agent distinction. Merrian-Webster defines 'agent' as "a means or instrument by which a guiding intelligence achieves a result," which I think is more how you define 'tool' isn't it? Your 'tool' acts according to its programming without knowledge of the overall plan, whereas your 'agent' determines the plan and controls the tool. The dictionary defines 'tool' as "one that is used or manipulated by another," which fits.

You are right. Maybe I should use puppet master and puppet.

That aside, your 'agent' is the original programmer, right? It's possible that this person is the Final Cylon but not certain. If he is then he or she being the agent provides another clue to his/her identity, but does it help determine what the purpose of the Final Five is?

Right again. We haven´t really had atraditional baddie to boo, or goodie to cheer for a while now. Through the course of the show, the whole thing has become more blurred. Which is why I think we will see a human as the ultimate baddie, and the cylons as a mix of good and bad, just like the rest of humanity.

None of this is really connected to this thread, is it? So sorry to whoever´s thread it is.

[genji2000]

This is interesting. I didn´t know that. The bit about some humans practicing monotheism. Perhaps the religious fanatics among these believe in killing all infidels (non-monotheists) in a similar way to islamic extremists.

Or Christians. Yeah.

I don't know much about Caprica (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=796) but I think I'm right in saying that it's your friend Clarice Willow who secretly practises the religion and one of her students is Zoe Graystone's boyfriend (Daniel Graystone invented the Cylons). This boyfriend (it's all on the wiki (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Caprica_%28series%29) if you want names) is a monotheistic terrorist and in setting off a bomb he kills himself, Zoe and Tamara Adama (Bill's sister) and her mother. I think this is right - can't be bothered checking. The children have already had their consciousnesses stored by Daniel Graystone.

None of this is really connected to this thread, is it? So sorry to whoever´s thread it is.

Yes I think this is what the thread's about ultimately. We're digging around the edges in an attempt to address the OP.

[Prolescum]

So what about, let's say that the FF were only activated after the Cylons (S7) began questioning why they weren't to think about the FF, ie when they had reached the point where they were able to say, 'wait a minute, I'm a free thinking individual, why am i not allowed to think about the final five? Didn't we have to fight a war to win freedom for ourselves?', and this was on purpose, ie the FF weren't supposed to wake up until the Cylons (S7) were capable of self-doubt and inner reflection or some such dribble, and perhaps because events seem to be set up in chronological order, like the timing of the eye of jupiter and the re-appearance of Starbuck with her 'Look! pointy-signal' Viper, can anyone trace these clues, (and the ones I can't think of or remember), backward to attempt to figure out what the plan was/is/will turn out to be and perhaps we can figure out whether there is likely to have been a programmer or that the Cylons' mythos was constructed independently, (maybe based on ideas they were already be familiar with)? Has this been done in a thread before?