Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II (Rewatch)

[bazzyb]

This poll and thread are now open for votes and comments. You may also wish to consider this episode for the season one awards, see http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1595

When voting or posting a comment you may wish (or not) to add whether your rating i.e. Exellent to Poor is based on the quality of BSG in general, TV in general or otherwise.

[bazzyb]

A great episode. In fact the whole segment of S1 and S2 set around the time on Kobol is BSG at its best (with one episode in S2 being the exception). The 3 stories on Caprica, Galactica and Kobol are all handled so well without any of them suffering in quality or depth

[genji2000]

Why is Adama's assassination intercut and linked so closely with Baltar's discovery of the Opera House, or of Baltar and Head Six kissing passionately after she reveals Hera to him (whom Adama later drowns in Baltar's dream)... "a dying leader"?

[Osprey]

but if bill is the dying leader what's the wasting disease?

[Neakal]

I am more curious about why a ruined temple that is not the Opera House is shown during Adama's "death" sequence. The one that pans over a lake just before the final shot of the episode with Adama.

Ay any rate, one of my most favourite episodes. As I may have mentioned before, this episode has a special place in my heart since it was the very first BSG episode I ever saw and even though I wasn't sure what was happening, I knew I wanted more. The rewatches did not take anything away. This is still an episode where BSG is in its best.

First off, music has a huge place in this episode and I love every bit of it. I love the tune that is intercut with Boomer's landing and Starbuck's fight scene (called "Destiny" in soundtrack), the Kobol song which is eerie but sad and, of course, the Opera House music which is simply beautiful.

Also, like Bazzy said, the stories intecut between Kobol, Caprica and the Fleet work out seamlessly and I particularly love the Caprica shots. Maybe because I'm a sucker for post-apocalyptic but Starbuck's flight over the abandoned city (that is not Delphi or Caprica City :P) and the shots in the street at Delphi are among my favourite of Caprica shots. I also enjoyed the sight of Kobol though I wish we could have seen the ruins closer.

Something I saw with Boomer's interaction with other Eights in this episode and Downloaded strikes me as funny and may have been a running gag. When she is in the Basestar meeting the other Eights, they say things that increasingly freaks Boomer out. And when the last one says "...and we love you", there is this scary-tune that plays. Same happens in Downloaded. An Eight says "...and we love you" and, again, there is a scary tune followed by Boomer's hysterical screaming. Kinda funny to think that "...and we love you" is the scariest sentence for Boomer.

Another bit about Boomer: Did she remember her encounter with the Eights in Basestar or did her memory block it as she returned to the Raptor? Did she shoot Adama knowing that shes a Cylon and clinging to her loyalty to humans but losing the struggle during which the programming took over? Also, I have a speculation that the Eights in the Basestar realised Boomer was in the breaking point and decided to put the assasination plan to motion which, they somehow did by taking off her helmet and maybe saying some codeword or something.

Intersting bit of trivia. RDM initially planned Baltar to meet God in the form of a cigar-smoking Dirk Benedict in the Opera House but decided not to after being unable to find a proper resolution. Also, Baltar was supposed to hear Hendrix in the Opera House scene. To me that shows two things: First, the idea of God in RDM's mind is far from abstract. Even if he doesn't include it in the series, he has an idea for God. Second, the appearance of Watchtower in Season 3 may have been a holdover from as far as Season 1.

Anything else? Great episode and I love the Opera House scene :)

[genji2000]

but if bill is the dying leader what's the wasting disease?

I'm thinking more in terms of that that discussion about "the dying leader" (with the wasting disease) and "a dying leader" (who will know the truth of the Opera House) being two different characters - between GWCTD and SQN a lot of folks thought the latter might be Natalie, whilst the former was still Roslin.

I am more curious about why a ruined temple that is not the Opera House is shown during Adama's "death" sequence. The one that pans over a lake just before the final shot of the episode with Adama.

I thought it was the same place Baltar entered the Opera House - it seems to have the fallen column and the little tower with the damaged gold sphere on top. It's just from a different angle.

Kinda funny to think that "...and we love you" is the scariest sentence for Boomer.

...taking off her helmet and maybe saying some codeword or something.

Maybe there's some issue Boomer has with loving herself, perhaps triggered by her rejection by Tyrol, or perhaps deep down as a result of being a sleeper agent.

...the appearance of Watchtower in Season 3 may have been a holdover from as far as Season 1.

It's been mentioned (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=21175#post21175) that it's a holdover from Roswell.

Starbuck's flight over the abandoned city (that is not Delphi or Caprica City :P)

Are you sure?

[Neakal]

I'm thinking more in terms of that that discussion about "the dying leader" (with the wasting disease) and "a dying leader" (who will know the truth of the Opera House) being two different characters - between GWCTD and SQN a lot of folks thought the latter might be Natalie, whilst the former was still Roslin.

I though the Hybrid said "the Dying Leader will know the truth of the Opera House" not "a Dying Leader". Its kinda muffled but I watched that scene quite a lot of times but always heard it as "the".

I thought it was the same place Baltar entered the Opera House - it seems to have the fallen column and the little tower with the damaged gold sphere on top. It's just from a different angle.

Seems so. Without pausing and looking carefully the archway from the distant shot looks more weathered and vegetation-covered than the close up. Always made me assume it was a different place in the universe.

On a side note, Baltar says "I know this place" upon seeing the Opera House. Do you think he knows it from scriptures or is this another clue about Baltar's place?

It's been mentioned (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=21175#post21175) that it's a holdover from Roswell.

Had forgotten about that post. I know RDM is a fan but looks like he was really working for an opportunity to put Hendrix in one of his shows :lol:

Are you sure?

Lets not go there. I may end up sounding like Timbo saying that it is not Delphi or Caprica City.

[genji2000]

I though the Hybrid said "the Dying Leader will know the truth of the Opera House" not "a Dying Leader". Its kinda muffled but I watched that scene quite a lot of times but always heard it as "the".
From the Wiki (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hybrid_utterances):Thus will it come to pass. A dying leader (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=13695#post13695) will know the truth of the Opera House. The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth. You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end. End of Line.On a side note, Baltar says "I know this place" upon seeing the Opera House. Do you think knows it from scriptures or is this another clue about Baltar's place?
That's interesting. I assumed it was a spiritual thing, a soul memory or something. On first watch I didn't think too much of it because there was so much going on I knew I didn't understand. On a re-watch, with the "Chosen One" knowledge, I think it was something he'd seen in previous cycle.

Lets not go there. I may end up sounding like Timbo saying that it is not Delphi or Caprica City.
Yeah, I know you're right. Just cross-referencing like you were. :P

[westie]

I have a speculation that the Eights in the Basestar realised Boomer was in the breaking point and decided to put the assasination plan to motion which, they somehow did by taking off her helmet and maybe saying some codeword or something.

Was merrily photocopying today (aah the joys of gap-year work... :thumbsup:) and got to thinking about Boomer and the Cylon's 'plans'. Namely, what *was* her purpose and programming? I mean, surely, given that Boomer had already been in the fleet for two years, she was not specifically programmed to shoot Adama twice in the chest at this particular moment in time, or indeed to blow apart the water storage facilities, or fail to recognise a planet that had water supplies... so how did she do these things, and what was her original purpose?

The cylons of course, didn't expect the Galactica to survive (what with all the sneaky hacking ;)) so why plant Boomer there at all? Was there a cylon agent on every Battlestar (like Gina?) If so, wouldn't they have been identified as copies through standard military proceedure like fingerprinting and files? Additionally, what determined whether they were sleeper agents or 'soldiers'?

I doubt we will ever get the answers to any of these questions (and i'm not complaining - there are a lot more important questions out there to be answered... :lol:) I just wondered if anyone had any opinions on the original purpose and mission of cylon agents planted in the fleet.

In the Boomer case, could it be that she was programmed simply to cause as much disruption and infighting as possible, and that it was her cylon mind that masterminded such things as the water-tank boom? Or, as Neakal suggests above, was she receiving signals from the cylons outside the fleet?

Finally, what the hell was Cavil doing all that time until he was exposed in LDYB? Living a quiet life?

[Neakal]

Was merrily photocopying today (aah the joys of gap-year work... :thumbsup:) and got to thinking about Boomer and the Cylon's 'plans'. Namely, what *was* her purpose and programming? I mean, surely, given that Boomer had already been in the fleet for two years, she was not specifically programmed to shoot Adama twice in the chest at this particular moment in time, or indeed to blow apart the water storage facilities, or fail to recognise a planet that had water supplies... so how did she do these things, and what was her original purpose?

The cylons of course, didn't expect the Galactica to survive (what with all the sneaky hacking ;)) so why plant Boomer there at all? Was there a cylon agent on every Battlestar (like Gina?) If so, wouldn't they have been identified as copies through standard military proceedure like fingerprinting and files? Additionally, what determined whether they were sleeper agents or 'soldiers'?

In the Boomer case, could it be that she was programmed simply to cause as much disruption and infighting as possible, and that it was her cylon mind that masterminded such things as the water-tank boom? Or, as Neakal suggests above, was she receiving signals from the cylons outside the fleet?

Well you pretty much answered your own question there. Her mission was to A) Cause as must dispruptions as possible to any survivors, B) Locate and, if opportune, eliminate the things the surviving parties relied on (Water, Adama etc...) C) Halt them from replenishing these as long as possible (As we saw in Water) and D) Letting the Cylons know of any survivor groups. As you mentioned, her subconscious Cylon mind probably watched gaps open and planned these herself. Also fits how her Cylon persona kept towels and fresh clothes ready in Water for her human persona. Though I doubt she "received" any orders until those Eights in the Basestar lured her. The whole thing with her Cylon and human persona almost reminds me of the relationship between Glory and Ben in Buffy by the way :lol:

My guess why she was on Galactica is this: The Cylons clearly have different makeups, styles etc... (In the case of Six we saw the Caprica-Six, Gina/Natalie style Six with darker hair and glasses etc... and we saw a black-haired Six). Now remember the Colonies consist of 20 billion people spread over 12 Main and unreferenced number of periphery planets (Trevor, Troy etc...). Thus I believe they figured if they had random spread of agents (say, 1 in every 100 Colonial Ship that would be travelling that day)(Remember they were collecting information on the travel schedules some of which were provided by Gaius to Six), they would have a fair chance infiltrating any clusters of potential survivors while keeping pre-attack detection to a minimum due to increased spread and disguises. Besides, since they had been infiltrating the Colonies for two years prior to the attack, maybe the Cylons did not know Galactica would be decommissioned back then and maybe even thought "Damn what a waste of an agent in a Battlestar that already outs itself without us" when they learned about it.

The other agents (Doral 1, Doral 2, Leoben 1, Leoben 2) were not originally in Galactica but simply were swept together either with the surviving ships (Doral 2, Leoben 2) or humans' plans that placed them there(Doral 1).

As for what determines whos a sleeper and whos not, no idea. I'm a bit annoyed we didn't see more sleepers till the F5. Maybe RDM thought they had already done a sleeper story enough.

Finally, what the hell was Cavil doing all that time until he was exposed in LDYB? Living a quiet life?

Well thats what the new movie is supposed to answer :)

[westie]

Well thats what the new movie is supposed to answer :)

Awesomeness, I'd forgotten about that one. Let's hope that will provide some of those answers then. I think the cylons have already been demystified enough that one more movie won't make a difference :lol:

[genji2000]

I think the cylons have already been demystified enough that one more movie won't make a difference

I personally don't agree with the whole "the demystification of the Cylons has wrecked the show" opinion. Right from the start I never saw the Cylons as the enemy, but as a mirror image of mankind, or (as they say themselves) the children of humanity. By the time we got to Downloaded I was totally on the Cylons' side, not against humanity, but alongside the humans, in the journey to wherever the show would ultimately lead.

For me this was all down to Grace Park's performance as Boomer and Athena, but per se that would have have been separated from the main thrust of the story. What supported and drove the Cylon perspective, I think, was Tricia Helfer's outrageous performance as Head Six (who may after all not be a Cylon, but in Season One I think she was) and all the Six incarnations. Where I felt Park was occasionally (not often but now and then) a little vague or uncertain about the Cylon core, Helfer nailed it from the first time Rymer said "Action!" Clearly, this is down to both actors' intelligence and work ethic and perhaps moreso the Cylon Bible that RDM/Eick wrote for them.

So, for me, the Cylons were never 'baddies' who needed that sense of mystery and threat surrounding them to be convincing. I always wanted to know more about them and to understand their motives and operations. Abstractly, I remain of the opinion that the annihilation of the colonies was an inevitable consequence of man's actions, and that mankind was equally culpable in the event - it was "the flood" that Baltar speaks of in The Hub. I enjoyed watching the Cylons gradually mature over the first two seasons from children with too much power (something most parents are familiar with, I think) into reflective teenagers and idealogical adults, which led to the civil war.

I appreciate the initial illustration of good guys vs. bad guys to get the plot moving, but I don't think the Cylons were ever intended to be pure evil.

[westie]

I personally don't agree with the whole "the demystification of the Cylons has wrecked the show" opinion.


I completely agree - the comment was a nod to those who think otherwise! :lol: My personal attitude is that the whole over-riding arc of the show, from Athena and Helo on Caprica to Flesh and Bone and onwards has been that the differences between cylon and human are minimal, both physically AND psychologically. The entire 'point' of season 4, as it were, is the negotiation of a truce between the two sides, and presumably, a foundation for peaceful co-existence. Hera, as the first mixed race child, is the 'shape of things to come'.

[BSGfan-atic]

Genji2000 wrote:

I personally don't agree with the whole "the demystification of the Cylons has wrecked the show" opinion.

Absolutely. The exploration of the Cylon character and motives is one of the most interesting parts of the series. If this didn't take place, it would be a rerun of the Terminator movies. The Cylons are definitely much more interesting and three-dimensional as a result. After all, how many of us felt any sympathy or curiousity about the advanced terminator models in T2 or T3? Of course, everybody is welcome to their opinions on the matter, and please don't think that I am trying to shut anybody down.

Genji2000 also wrote:

Abstractly, I remain of the opinion that the annihilation of the colonies was an inevitable consequence of man's actions, and that mankind was equally culpable in the event...

I believe that Roslin referred to this in "Hero," when Adama talked about his black op before the war. Roslin said something about humanity doing a thousand little things to make the Cylons opt for war. It also makes the series that much more biblical, doesn't it? The degenerate colonies making the gods want to wash their hands of them. From what I could see from the "Caprica" trailer, there does seem to be some good old hedonism going on at the time. This philosophical angle is one of the more interesting plot drivers on tv. I wish the Cylons would hurry up and nuke Wisteria Lane, or whatever the frak street Desperate Housewives takes place on!

[genji2000]

I wish the Cylons would hurry up and nuke Wisteria Lane, or whatever the frak street Desperate Housewives takes place on!

:lol:

[timbo]

If you have been wondering where I was, you´re not gonna believe this, but i was taken by a bunch of cylons to a sort of farm where they did something with my ovaries. Left me with a floppy sack, the buggers. They said something about wanting the genetic material of the physical and intelectual elite of the race to mix with their own stuff.

Not really. Been to England on holiday. And I actually missed my friends on the forum. I got back and my internet doesn´t work, so I am in a cyber cafe. What were last fridays episodes, and what are this weeks?

In England, I saw Tigh at a footie match, and I shouted over to him "hey, Tigh, are you a cylon, man?", and he shouted back "don´t be soft, lad".

[timbo]

Have there been any interesting developments / ideas lately. If anyone can think of anything interesting, please let me know.
Thanks.

[bazzyb]

If you have been wondering where I was, you´re not gonna believe this, but i was taken by a bunch of cylons to a sort of farm where they did something with my ovaries. Left me with a floppy sack, the buggers. They said something about wanting the genetic material of the physical and intelectual elite of the race to mix with their own stuff.

Not really. Been to England on holiday. And I actually missed my friends on the forum. I got back and my internet doesn´t work, so I am in a cyber cafe. What were last fridays episodes, and what are this weeks?

In England, I saw Tigh at a footie match, and I shouted over to him "hey, Tigh, are you a cylon, man?", and he shouted back "don´t be soft, lad".

:lol: --Welcome back--

Last week was episodes 2.03, 2.04, 2.05. This week is 2.06, 2.07 and 2.08.

[genji2000]

Have there been any interesting developments / ideas lately. If anyone can think of anything interesting, please let me know.
Thanks.

Welcome home.

Joe's Excellent Adventure in Vancouver is the biggest news I think.

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1620

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1686

http://www.battlestarprops.com/raptor-hull-breach-plug/

Sorry to wander off-topic momentarily.

[bazzyb]

Sorry to wander off-topic momentarily.

Thanks for the reminder. Now back to the episode in question. BSG at its very best

[timbo]

:lol: --Welcome back--



Welcome home.

Gracias amigos. I am way behind - last night I watched the two kobol episodes, and was too excited to really notice anything. All my BSG stuff is here in Spain, so I have not seen anything or looked at the forum in about a month. I had forgotten just how carried away with it all I was.

How come Genji has all those medals now? Has he promoted himself or something?

Now dont get all weepie on me, but I missed you guys on the forum.

[genji2000]

How come Genji has all those medals now? Has he promoted himself or something?

Aw shucks. You can still talk to me like I'm here you know. And no, I can't give myself props. You've just been away a while.

[timbo]

Aw shucks. You can still talk to me like I'm here you know. And no, I can't give myself props. You've just been away a while.

Sorry dude. What are props?

This is weird. After a month away, it is strange to look over the forum, and feel myself getting stirred up again. Nothing has touched me like BSG before (apart from the normal stuff - kids marriage, etc), and coming back after a break and feeling the same strange connection is cool. Like I didn´t dream it or imagine it. If the show does start in Jan 2009, the twelve or so episodes will finish about March, I suppose. This would be about a year from when I first came across BSG. A year of my life dominated by a tv show. The year of BSG. Cool.

[genji2000]

Sorry dude. What are props?

er... I don't know. I think it's an American phrase. I think it means "approval". Or something.

[Pnutmaster]

er... I don't know. I think it's an American phrase. I think it means "approval". Or something.

lol, British Caucasian and senseless American Slang = "Do not want".

[timbo]

I personally don't agree with the whole "the demystification of the Cylons has wrecked the show" opinion. Right from the start I never saw the Cylons as the enemy, but as a mirror image of mankind, or (as they say themselves) the children of humanity. By the time we got to Downloaded I was totally on the Cylons' side, not against humanity, but alongside the humans, in the journey to wherever the show would ultimately lead.

For me this was all down to Grace Park's performance as Boomer and Athena, but per se that would have have been separated from the main thrust of the story. What supported and drove the Cylon perspective, I think, was Tricia Helfer's outrageous performance as Head Six (who may after all not be a Cylon, but in Season One I think she was) and all the Six incarnations. Where I felt Park was occasionally (not often but now and then) a little vague or uncertain about the Cylon core, Helfer nailed it from the first time Rymer said "Action!" Clearly, this is down to both actors' intelligence and work ethic and perhaps moreso the Cylon Bible that RDM/Eick wrote for them.

So, for me, the Cylons were never 'baddies' who needed that sense of mystery and threat surrounding them to be convincing. I always wanted to know more about them and to understand their motives and operations. Abstractly, I remain of the opinion that the annihilation of the colonies was an inevitable consequence of man's actions, and that mankind was equally culpable in the event - it was "the flood" that Baltar speaks of in The Hub. I enjoyed watching the Cylons gradually mature over the first two seasons from children with too much power (something most parents are familiar with, I think) into reflective teenagers and idealogical adults, which led to the civil war.

I appreciate the initial illustration of good guys vs. bad guys to get the plot moving, but I don't think the Cylons were ever intended to be pure evil.

Great post Genji. You have come a long way, amigo. As a reward, I am going to give you this -- find a decent bookies (not Ladbrokes) and have a few quid on this double - Torres to be the premierships top scorer, and Liverpool to win the league.

[Osprey]

from wiktionary -- "(slang (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#slang)) "proper respect" or "proper recognition" for another person"

/braces for another transatlantic language flamewar ...

[genji2000]

from wiktionary -- "(slang (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#slang)) "proper respect" or "proper recognition" for another person"

Of course. As usual it's obvious once someone explains it.

[timbo]

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes, Kobol´s last gleaming. Seeing the two Sharons in action at the same time made me think again that somehow, an important part of the story will be how one person, or two copies of the same person are capable of such different actions, depending on the love they receive and the decisions they make. I think the finale will involve some sort of tragic coming together of the two Sharons in such a way that they hold the outcome of everything in their hands.

The other idea I got was that the Opera house isn´t just a building, it is the stage on which all the stories out in space and here on Earth are being played out. I think that maybe in the end, the "secret of the opera house" will not mean its relevence to the story, but the secret of how to successfully emerge from this part of the "great play" that we are all mere players in, and advance to the next stage / cycle, or something similar. All the world´s a stage", and all that.

Must go now. Have six episodes to watch before teatime.

[Wouter]

Well you pretty much answered your own question there. Her mission was to A) Cause as must dispruptions as possible to any survivors, B) Locate and, if opportune, eliminate the things the surviving parties relied on (Water, Adama etc...) C) Halt them from replenishing these as long as possible (As we saw in Water) and D) Letting the Cylons know of any survivor groups. As you mentioned, her subconscious Cylon mind probably watched gaps open and planned these herself. Also fits how her Cylon persona kept towels and fresh clothes ready in Water for her human persona. Though I doubt she "received" any orders until those Eights in the Basestar lured her.
In that case, her subconscious Cylon mind missed an enormous opportunity when she was handed a nuke to destroy the baseship. Killing Racetrack if necessary, and then detonating the nuke while still on Galactica would have been easy.

Perhas Boomer's primary mission was one of observation and espionage, and she only engaged in sabotage when expressly instructed to do so. There was a Cavil on board, who could have reached her to give instructions.

[genji2000]

Perhas Boomer's primary mission was one of observation and espionage, and she only engaged in sabotage when expressly instructed to do so. There was a Cavil on board, who could have reached her to give instructions.

Yes that sounds plausible. If her memories were being uploaded periodically, it would give the Cylons useful information about the fleet - not just positioning, but social structure, leader profiles, objectives, etc. It matches with her sleeper status. I'm not sure Cavil could trigger Boomer's sabotage missions though.

With the speculation that is inevitable from the scant plot information we've been given about the TV movie (working title - The Plan) we are supposed to draw the conclusion that 'the Plan' did not account for survivors, aren't we? So, again, the old question, why place a sleeper onboard the Galactica? I suppose if they had many sleepers (the Pegasus' secret agent wasn't a sleeper*) then it would make sense.

Was Boomer ever activated in the way that the Watchtower Four were? Tigh says "switched on... just like Boomer" but was it just like Boomer? I got the impression that in the brig she was trying to understand what had happened (she even screamed "what happened?" when they dragged her off there) and maybe said to herself "well, I guess I'm a Cylon then." There was no real "whoa" moment from her.


*in the BSG sense, which means someone who doesn't know she's a Cylon.

[Wouter]

I don't think Boomer got ever "switched on" the way Tigh meant it. She seemed to slowly come to the conclusion she was a Cylon: first by her waking up dripping wet in "water", then by things like her behaviour with the raider and nightmares (which led her to seek out Baltar and his test), then by meeting her "sisters" on the baseship (though she was still pretending she got cloned but was human - AFAIK), and finally by shooting Adama. I guess by that time, there was such a mountain of evidence she couldn't really escape the conclusion anymore. Still, only when she actually resurrected she really admitted it to herself, I think. Waking up among the enemy led to a hysterical scream. That was probably also the moment when her conscious mind got access to all her Cylon (self)knowledge.

Well, perhaps not exactly all of it... ;)