Why BSG is not the best TV out there

[bazzyb]

I thought maybe I'd try something different. In the main, I'm very complimentary about (the RDM version of) BSG. I'm a big fan and BSG is one of my favourite shows but I don't think that it is the best TV out there.

One of the reasons I do like it so much is that it has a great balance of providing pure entertainment while also dealing with serious issues. It also treats viewers as intelligent people unlike many other shows out there.

But I think it falls down in some crucial areas. It is quite limited by the conventions of conventional TV e.g. act breaks for advertisements. Also it tries hard to provide 'an in' for newcomers (admittedly this is probably under instruction from the network). It doesn't have the license of some cable shows which have the freedom to be more like novels. Of course one of the main differences between a novel and conventional TV is that no-one expects to be able to pick up a novel at page 100 and understand what's going on yet people expect to watch the 4th or 5th episode of a TV show and know what's going on. I would have loved to see BSG free of such conventions but such a show would probably not be commercially viable and would either never get made or wouldn't last long if it did.

BSG has also failed to sustain the quality of earlier seasons. It has changed inevitably and while I'm glad it has evolved (shows like 'The Shield' which fail to evolve find their high octane storylines simply become tiresome after a couple of years and lose their dramatic impact).

I also think that BSG would benefit from more of the 'Royale with Cheese' type conversation:). Anyone who has watched Pulp Fiction who remember that scene in which two of the main characters spend time talking about something so unimportant as what a Quarter Pounder with cheese is called in France. BSG does have such moments e.g. --what do you hear Starbuck? Nothing but the rain....-- BSG has shown that it can do it well e.g. 'Final Cut' but a little more, IMO, would be welcome.

I could say a lot more but I'll stop my ramblings here.....any comments?

[Osprey]

is it perfect? of course not ...

is it a damn sight better than ANYTHING ever to air on scif? than anything ever to air on basic cable? on just about anything to ever air as a series? um, yeah ...

they chose to be one of multi-multi episode story arcs a long time ago [similar, one could posit, to B5] and i would surely stand by that choice -- they don't give a rip about dude who just wants to kill an hour on one friday nite, they care about dude who wants to watch THIS latest episode of THIS show ...

AND, I see most of season 3 superior to season 2; as well as season 4 being superior to much of either, so I'm not buying the "fail to sustain" posit either ...

[genji2000]

"not the best TV out there"

So what is better?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I do agree that BSG has failed to maintain the quality of the past few seasons. Even Season 4 has some trouble, with episodes like "The Road Less Traveled" and even "The Ties That Bind", despite the fact that Cally was finally killed off. Only took three years: better late than never, eh?

The issue of quality can stem from three things:



The fact that the show is pretty much winged. There is very little long-term planning in the show. I'm sure they knew how it was gonna end, but as to getting to that point? Bleh. By the way, having listened to the Michael Rymer interview that will soon be up on Galactica.TV, Rymer attributes this to the fact that RDM rewriting the scripts from the first season, and the first half of season two. Then the quality went down, when they decided to go with the whole Billy / Lee / Dualla love trifecta, and with episodes such as Black Market and Epiphanies.
Like Babylon 5, BSG is at its strongest when dealing with the overall story arc. Individualized, bottle shows don't work in the novel-like setting that BSG ascribes to, which is why the post-New Caprica shows in Season 3 are barely watchable to me. I almost stopped watching at that point, personally. Thankfully the show redeemed itself in Season 4.

Part of the problem with BSG is that, in Season 3, it started to get full of itself. The people behind the scenes seemed to buy into their own publicity, and started finding ways to hold on to that mantle and to outdo themselves. Unfortunatley, in doing so, they pretty much went overboard and started emulating the most annoying aspects of Star Trek with the whole "moral lesson of the week stichk", particularly with "Dirty Hands" (workers must be unionized! UAW FTW!), "The Woman King" (ethnic cleansing = bad!) and even "Hero" (leave no man behind or he may come back and frakkin' kill ya! boo-yah!), and the whole Baltar trial thing was... unbelievable. The only thing that saved that arc were Romo Lampkin and Lee Adama's wonderful speech at the end, and the fact that Dualla was finally out of Lee's life because of it.
The fact that the show gets 20 episodes a season. It should get 10 to 12, no more, no less. That way the plot lines are tighter and there are no—or at least, fewer—filler episodes. What made the first season very tight in terms of story telling was the fact that they had so few episodes to frak around with.

[genji2000]

There is very little long-term planning in the show.
It's the nature of TV I think. If SciFi and Sky had said at the outset "we'll bankroll four 20-episodes seasons - do it good," I'm sure the story arcs would have been spot on. This is the advantage of movies (inc. made-for-TV movies) - they know their start points and end points.

the quality went down
...The fact that the show gets 20 episodes a season. It should get 10 to 12, no more, no less.
Ignoring the fact that 10 is less than 12 and 12 > 10, I completely agree in terms of a perfect show (which BSG is agonisingly not, though it so often comes close to being), but I disagree in terms of reality. It's like life. Without the disappointments, heartbreak and Dirty Handses (which I like, incidentally), how could you appreciate the joy, love and Crossroads? The dire episodes are a part of the whole, but not just because they make the great episodes better. They're part of it, and for all it's flaws I think, actually, it is the best thing that TV has produced. It could be better, but so could I and so (I daresay) could you. Has there ever been a perfect piece of art or entertainment?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

It's the nature of TV I think. If SciFi and Sky had said at the outset "we'll bankroll four 20-episodes seasons - do it good," I'm sure the story arcs would have been spot on. This is the advantage of movies (inc. made-for-TV movies) - they know their start points and end points.

True. That's the nature of television. Obviously, a lot of shows aren't planned in advanced, short of shows like Babylon 5. Each season is planned as it goes along, and obviously that's television for ya.

And obviously, when I say planned, it doesn't have to be rigidly planned. It should be planned just well enough to benefit the story, but be flexible enough to deal with any issues that the production may come up against. (Cast members leaving and the like.)

Ignoring the fact that 10 is less than 12 and 12 > 10, I completely agree in terms of a perfect show (which BSG is agonisingly not, though it so often comes close to being), but I disagree in terms of reality. It's like life. Without the disappointments, heartbreak and Dirty Handses (which I like, incidentally), how could you appreciate the joy, love and Crossroads? The dire episodes are a part of the whole, but not just because they make the great episodes better. They're part of it, and for all it's flaws I think, actually, it is the best thing that TV has produced. It could be better, but so could I and so (I daresay) could you. Has there ever been a perfect piece of art or entertainment?

Again, true. (And true on the "Billy Math". Damn you, genji. Damn you. :thumbsup:) To an extent. Obviously, the bad stuff only serves to increase our fondness for and allows us to better treasure one's love of the good stuff. Well, most of the time anyway.

In comparison to other TV shows, BSG is one of the best things to come out in the last five years or so. Although, Angel was very good, before the WB axed it. BSG and Angel made for great television, just on the basis of the characters. (I would've said Veronica Mars, but its last season fell flat.)

What rankles my arse is the lack of strong planning during the third season, which is clearly evident when the Fleet bumbles about. Now, Dirty Hands isn't a horrible episode by most means (when compared to the other drek out there), but I found it to be a throwaway episode, particularly in light of the fact that the whole union thing is quickly forgotten. Same with "The Woman King", which is quickly forgotten, and the whole extreme Sagittaron racism thing was more sudden than Lee's depression issues in Season 2.

[bazzyb]

"not the best TV out there"

So what is better?

Two HBO shows come to mind 'The Sopranos' at its best and 'The Wire', which is even better.

I'm not suggesting that BSG or other shows should necessarily be structured as novels but can you imagine if a novel writer was told that he had to provide a way in for a reader every 50 pages or so that readers could start the book at page 50 or page 100 if they chose. I think that BSG could have been better without such constraints but I'm realistic and the show probably wouldn't have been made without them.



is it a damn sight better than ANYTHING ever to air on scif?




AND, I see most of season 3 superior to season 2; as well as season 4 being superior to much of either, so I'm not buying the "fail to sustain" posit either ...


Yes, I imagine it is a lot better than anything else on scifi. It also shows up many of the flaws in the genre i.e. terrible scripts, wooden acting, the overuse of sci-fi cliches such as time travel etc.

I suppose we disagree on S2 vs S3. There were some poor episodes in S2 and in S3 but overall I prefer S2 despite the fact that Exodus Pt2 is a fantastic episode IMO

I do agree that BSG has failed to maintain the quality of the past few seasons. Even Season 4 has some trouble, with episodes like "The Road Less Traveled" and even "The Ties That Bind", despite the fact that Cally was finally killed off. Only took three years: better late than never, eh?

The issue of quality can stem from three things:



The fact that the show is pretty much winged. There is very little long-term planning in the show. I'm sure they knew how it was gonna end, but as to getting to that point? Bleh. By the way, having listened to the Michael Rymer interview that will soon be up on Galactica.TV, Rymer attributes this to the fact that RDM rewriting the scripts from the first season, and the first half of season two. Then the quality went down, when they decided to go with the whole Billy / Lee / Dualla love trifecta, and with episodes such as Black Market and Epiphanies.
Like Babylon 5, BSG is at its strongest when dealing with the overall story arc. Individualized, bottle shows don't work in the novel-like setting that BSG ascribes to, which is why the post-New Caprica shows in Season 3 are barely watchable to me. I almost stopped watching at that point, personally. Thankfully the show redeemed itself in Season 4.

Part of the problem with BSG is that, in Season 3, it started to get full of itself. The people behind the scenes seemed to buy into their own publicity, and started finding ways to hold on to that mantle and to outdo themselves. Unfortunatley, in doing so, they pretty much went overboard and started emulating the most annoying aspects of Star Trek with the whole "moral lesson of the week stichk", particularly with "Dirty Hands" (workers must be unionized! UAW FTW!), "The Woman King" (ethnic cleansing = bad!) and even "Hero" (leave no man behind or he may come back and frakkin' kill ya! boo-yah!), and the whole Baltar trial thing was... unbelievable. The only thing that saved that arc were Romo Lampkin and Lee Adama's wonderful speech at the end, and the fact that Dualla was finally out of Lee's life because of it.
The fact that the show gets 20 episodes a season. It should get 10 to 12, no more, no less. That way the plot lines are tighter and there are no—or at least, fewer—filler episodes. What made the first season very tight in terms of story telling was the fact that they had so few episodes to frak around with.



I think the fact that the show is 'winged' meant that minor characters naturally evolved into more major characters throughout the seasons but unfortunately the actors originally cast were perhaps not ideally suited for the roles eg. Dualla. A novel writer gets away with thise more easily than a writer for TV (no actors, directors etc)

Like Joe I think the 20+ episodes is crucial to the quality. RDM said it himself in one of the S2 podcasts (Black Market, I think but I'm not certain) that they struggled to maintain quality with the extra episodes.

Also don't get me wrong guys. I'm not looking for flawless drama. There are many books, movies, songs etc that are flawed but I still love them

[genji2000]

(I would've said Veronica Mars, but its last season fell flat.)

Damn. I really have to get into that show. It's another one from KS' My Boring-ass Life, like BSG, and I had the whole thing but deleted it because I figured it was probably a Jen-thing rather than a Kev-thing.

What rankles my arse

Nice usage. Sometimes I get the impression you're actually a Brit, only condemned by the vagaries of reincarnation to serve out this life as a 'merican.

is the lack of strong planning during the third season, which is clearly evident when the Fleet bumbles about. Now, Dirty Hands isn't a horrible episode by most means (when compared to the other drek out there), but I found it to be a throwaway episode, particularly in light of the fact that the whole union thing is quickly forgotten. Same with "The Woman King", which is quickly forgotten, and the whole extreme Sagittaron racism thing was more sudden than Lee's depression issues in Season 2.

Yeah. I do prefer the Season Three single-episoders to the Season Two equivalents, but I think you're right in terms of The Woman King (and as you say the union aspect of Dirty Hands) is totally here-today-gone-tomorrow and serves no real purpose, not even in the development of a minor major character like Helo (which A Measure of Salvation did I think).

But I would say that that's just TV for you. Forget about it.

Two HBO shows come to mind 'The Sopranos' at its best and 'The Wire', which is even better.

And yes, The Wire is pummelled into me daily as the antidote to no-BSG... but I am reticent in potentially jumping into a new show. I know you love it 'coz of your early avatars but will I like it? I'm struggling with finishing Season One of Oz. What if I like the kitsch Hollywood-type love of BSG in a Star Wars type way and all those other shows just turn me off?

If we were discussing religion then you'd have to agree that the one that appeals to the mass-est audience is the best. Same with politics.

I'm not suggesting that BSG or other shows should necessarily be structured as novels but can you imagine if a novel writer was told that he had to provide a way in for a reader every 50 pages or so that readers could start the book at page 50 or page 100 if they chose. I think that BSG could have been better without such constraints but I'm realistic and the show probably wouldn't have been made without them.

Charles Dickens springs to mind. Most of his novels were serialised. In a way TLotR and certainly The Hobbit were written in this way, serialised by Tolkien for his kids' delectation. Tolkien famously had no idea where his stories would take him when he began writing them. If I were ever to write a story, that's the way I'd like to do it.

Like Joe I think the 20+ episodes is crucial to the quality. RDM said it himself in one of the S2 podcasts (Black Market, I think but I'm not certain) that they struggled to maintain quality with the extra episodes.

Yes it's a good point. In the UK our 'series' might last for a dozen episodes (half a dozen in terms of comedy), but I for one feel a bit short-changed. I love this whole American epic serialisation, with a half-way break. To fit that you have to pad it out I think. I think BSG balances quality and quantity quite well. For sure, during the re-watch I won't be skipping the episodes I know I don't like. Maybe Americans have higher standards than Brits, I don't know. I do know that 95%+ of British TV is complete felgercarb (see - I'm modifying my excessive language!), and if 95% of US TV is the same I reckon the US still has ten times as many great TV shows as the UK (I'm not commenting on UK-produced TV shows, just UK-broadcast TV shows, many of which are American). But I'm not a big TV watcher and my opinion may be gash. I would put myself in the Timbo camp on BSG, in that this particular show grabbed me at a particular time in my life and that's it.

Also don't get me wrong guys. I'm not looking for flawless drama. There are many books, movies, songs etc that are flawed but I still love them

As I say, does any piece of flawless art or entertainment actually exist?


BTW. Really nice thread bazzyb. Nice one to comment on. Hats off.

[bazzyb]

Charles Dickens springs to mind. Most of his novels were serialised. In a way TLotR and certainly The Hobbit were written in this way, serialised by Tolkien for his kids' delectation. Tolkien famously had no idea where his stories would take him when he began writing them. If I were ever to write a story, that's the way I'd like to do it.


Very good point. However Dickens didn't have to contend with actors and others who couldn't pull off what he'd written. You are absolutely right that many novels were serialised. I'm recalling that the original print version of 'The Green Mile' was serialised before being made into a single book and then film.




BTW. Really nice thread bazzyb. Nice one to comment on. Hats off.


:) I won't say much about 'The Wire' here except that it blows away anything that's gone before. It could have set the trend for an entirely new level of TV but it seems that no-one out there wants to make that step (or to watch that kind of show). Try it at less than 15GBP for S1. Since this is a BSG thread I'll leave that show there. Feel free to PM me if you want more info.

[bazzyb]

Damn. I really have to get into that show. It's Charles Dickens springs to mind. Most of his novels were serialised. In a way TLotR and certainly The Hobbit were written in this way, serialised by Tolkien for his kids' delectation. Tolkien famously had no idea where his stories would take him when he began writing them. If I were ever to write a story, that's the way I'd like to do it

I think it's every writer to decide for themselves what they'd prefer but the conventions of TV dictate that it has to be done in a certain way. I remember in the early season podcats RDM talking about this, how he structures acts to ensure that there's a hook to bring the viewer back after the ad break. I'm not suggesting another structure or none at all would be more preferable but to be chained to single structure brings limitations. A single structure may work for some storylines and characters but it doesn't work all the time.

If I may use the example of quality BBC dramas and comedies. Watching them on satellite or other TV channels is a very different experience to watching them on the BBC. The ad breaks seem jarring as they often have no natural place in which an ad break can easily be inserted.

Yes it's a good point. In the UK our 'series' might last for a dozen episodes (half a dozen in terms of comedy), but I for one feel a bit short-changed. I love this whole American epic serialisation, with a half-way break. To fit that you have to pad it out I think.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the mid-season break a relatively new phenomena popularised the its use in the The Sopranos final season and perhaps enforced in some shows by last years WGA strike?

[Osprey]

yes, the whole "mid-season break" is part of the overall changing of the tv show broadcast paradigm. in the dark ages, when there were three networks, a television show premiered in the fall [sept. generally] had some amount of new episodes through may, and then everyone endured summer reruns until the next seaosn started in september ...
/and we liked it!
:-)

now, with cable not beholden to the fall to spring model [not even held to the three "sweeps" periods of feb., may, and nov.] shows DELIBERATELY start in january, or march -- or even may, to pick up viewers who would like to see something new before the autumn.

bsg, being a profit center for scifi and knowing they can leave the fans on hold for a several months 'cause they KNOW we'll be back, wagging our tails come January, optimize their costs even more by putting the crew on these periodic "hiatuses"

the wga strike essentially ENDED this past season for many shows; tho yes a few came did air a batch of new eps. in the spring to to finish close to a "full" season ...

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

The "mid-season" break is felgercarb, and poor marketing in my opinion. You may as well say that "Season 2.5" was Season 3, making Season 3 effectively Season 4, and Season 3.5 into Season 5, and Season 4 into Season 6, etc...

[bazzyb]

The "mid-season" break is felgercarb, and poor marketing in my opinion. You may as well say that "Season 2.5" was Season 3, making Season 3 effectively Season 4, and Season 3.5 into Season 5, and Season 4 into Season 6, etc...

Agreed! I'd been thinking the same thing myself :).

Also for me, there's a certain amount of vanity to the whole concept of having a Season 2.0 and then a Season 2.5. (I was glad when the Sopranos split the final season only because the first episodes of the final season were so poor and I was hoping the hiatus would help get it back on track, which it did)

It's interesting to note the differences from USA to Europe. In Europe shows are more likely to be shown weekly from start to finish without breaks as viewers tend to be les tolerant of interruptions. Season 2 of was shown in its entirety on Sky One. I'm not criticising either set of viewers, just pointing out a difference

[Helo87]

Why is BSG not the best show out there?

Two words. The Wire. Possibly Mad Men as well, but only time will tell.

[Osprey]

never seen the wire ...

mad men could be used as a frakking anesthetic, but that's jmo ...

[smelly_feet]

I thought maybe I'd try something different. In the main, I'm very complimentary about (the RDM version of) BSG. I'm a big fan and BSG is one of my favourite shows but I don't think that it is the best TV out there.

One of the reasons I do like it so much is that it has a great balance of providing pure entertainment while also dealing with serious issues. It also treats viewers as intelligent people unlike many other shows out there.

But I think it falls down in some crucial areas. It is quite limited by the conventions of conventional TV e.g. act breaks for advertisements. Also it tries hard to provide 'an in' for newcomers (admittedly this is probably under instruction from the network). It doesn't have the license of some cable shows which have the freedom to be more like novels. Of course one of the main differences between a novel and conventional TV is that no-one expects to be able to pick up a novel at page 100 and understand what's going on yet people expect to watch the 4th or 5th episode of a TV show and know what's going on. I would have loved to see BSG free of such conventions but such a show would probably not be commercially viable and would either never get made or wouldn't last long if it did.

BSG has also failed to sustain the quality of earlier seasons. It has changed inevitably and while I'm glad it has evolved (shows like 'The Shield' which fail to evolve find their high octane storylines simply become tiresome after a couple of years and lose their dramatic impact).

I also think that BSG would benefit from more of the 'Royale with Cheese' type conversation:). Anyone who has watched Pulp Fiction who remember that scene in which two of the main characters spend time talking about something so unimportant as what a Quarter Pounder with cheese is called in France. BSG does have such moments e.g. --what do you hear Starbuck? Nothing but the rain....-- BSG has shown that it can do it well e.g. 'Final Cut' but a little more, IMO, would be welcome.

I could say a lot more but I'll stop my ramblings here.....any comments?

I'm having fun watching it. Its refreshing to watch scifi. TV is bombarded with police shows or reality TV. I think the all the actors and writers are doing a great job with BSG. I wouldn't want to see it done any differently. Besides all that, its impossible to make a "perfect" scifi TV show or movie. I think if you want more continuity then you'll only get that in the written form of the series.

just my 2 cents

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I'm having fun watching it. Its refreshing to watch scifi. TV is bombarded with police shows or reality TV. I think the all the actors and writers are doing a great job with BSG. I wouldn't want to see it done any differently. Besides all that, its impossible to make a "perfect" scifi TV show or movie. I think if you want more continuity then you'll only get that in the written form of the series.

just my 2 cents

Well, Babylon 5—to bring up an old horse again, and again—proved that you can do a TV show and have, you know, continuity.

Some of the missteps BSG has made in terms of continuity really stem from laziness, or a simple attempt to ignore continuity to make something work... see: "Hero". (Square peg, round hole. Round hole, square peg. Now where's the wood chisel, hammer and sandpaper?)

Had they really paid attention to continuity—not only in terms of the timeline, but of the characters themselves as well—BSG would be that much tighter of a show.

[timbo]

I thought maybe I'd try something different. In the main, I'm very complimentary about (the RDM version of) BSG. I'm a big fan and BSG is one of my favourite shows but I don't think that it is the best TV out there.

One of the reasons I do like it so much is that it has a great balance of providing pure entertainment while also dealing with serious issues. It also treats viewers as intelligent people unlike many other shows out there.

But I think it falls down in some crucial areas. It is quite limited by the conventions of conventional TV e.g. act breaks for advertisements. Also it tries hard to provide 'an in' for newcomers (admittedly this is probably under instruction from the network). It doesn't have the license of some cable shows which have the freedom to be more like novels. Of course one of the main differences between a novel and conventional TV is that no-one expects to be able to pick up a novel at page 100 and understand what's going on yet people expect to watch the 4th or 5th episode of a TV show and know what's going on. I would have loved to see BSG free of such conventions but such a show would probably not be commercially viable and would either never get made or wouldn't last long if it did.

BSG has also failed to sustain the quality of earlier seasons. It has changed inevitably and while I'm glad it has evolved (shows like 'The Shield' which fail to evolve find their high octane storylines simply become tiresome after a couple of years and lose their dramatic impact).

I also think that BSG would benefit from more of the 'Royale with Cheese' type conversation:). Anyone who has watched Pulp Fiction who remember that scene in which two of the main characters spend time talking about something so unimportant as what a Quarter Pounder with cheese is called in France. BSG does have such moments e.g. --what do you hear Starbuck? Nothing but the rain....-- BSG has shown that it can do it well e.g. 'Final Cut' but a little more, IMO, would be welcome.

I could say a lot more but I'll stop my ramblings here.....any comments?

This thread was started the after I went on holiday, so I have only just seen it. My situation is probably a bit different from the majority of the people on the forum, so maybe my take on the question will seem a bit weird. I live in Spain. Spanish TV is beyond terrible. I got a computer last October and learned to use it in about March. I started looking to download stuff to watch just because it would in English. I would have watched adverts probably, but having read a snip of a review in an English newspaper about EJO and MM lending psychological depth to the new version of BSG, I half heartedly got season one and the mini, deciding to watch an episode first and see. I watched "33" and was blown away. I watched the rest, up to the end of season 3 over maybe 3 weeks. The intensity of watching it like this makes a huge difference form watching week to week with ad breaks etc. So, I dont watch too much TV, but from what I do see, BSG is by far the best I have ever seen. But then, I still have a feeling that what is going on here is more than just a TV show. Ok, time to get weird. I believe that things can be divinely inspired if they are concerned with art or music or such stuff. The guy who wrote our Big Book in AA said at times it just seemed to write itself, something that I think may have happened with this show. I think, in fact I read somewhere that once RDM had had his "it´s the characters stupid" moment, the rest just seemed to write itself. David appeared because Michaelangelo chipped away everything that wasnt David (cue groans and moans of "my Gods, he is comparing Michaelango´s David with BSG, now). I think I understand EJO´s comment about the show being good usage of TV. It seems to have noble aims.
After seeing the end of season three, I thought "I want to see what other people are saying about this and found this forum". I suppose I was a bit holier than thou at the start because I thought people weren´t getting it. The first thing I did was a new thread asking if they would stay true to what had set out to do - meaning in terms of chasing ratings, keeping it dark and edgy, and most of all staying with the spiritual aspect of the story through to the end, which is what a lot of the rest of the posters on thread have talked about. Fair enough, a TV show needs to recoup its costs and hopefully make a bit of profit, but if they change the storylines to do this, because they spot an opportunity, then THAT doesn´t feel right somehow. This is what worried me. When the who is the final cylon stuff kicked off, I thought the money men might try to milk that at the expense of the original story. Now, I think that the people behind the show have pretty much stayed true to the story, and still have a few unpopular curveballs to throw. For example, there is gonna be rioting in the streets when it turns out that TWF aren´t cylons (hee hee).
The internet makes it difficult to measure the success of a show like this, but I can imagine that when the show finishes and the complete box set comes on sale, it will be like that scene at the end of dield of dreams. Bit soppy that, I know.

So, for me, it´s already definitely the best TV ever.. If the last half of season 4 stays true, greatness beckons, ......... yes, I am talking "arise Sir Ronald".

Like you Bazzy, I could go on all day talking aboot this, but that´s probably enough.

[genji2000]

I watched it like that too. We even took a day off work a couple of times to totally mainline it, morning till night. It's a pity I'll never get that back in a way, the first watch. I missed a lot of details watching it like that though.

The money men have intervened in terms of pressure to do single-episode stories to attract new viewers, and I think that's where BSG was at its weakest. It has survived though and Season Four clearly isn't hampered by such instructions. I think the "who is the Final Cylon" suits both the Writers and the studio because it generates interest (new viewers?) but fortunately that's actually a small part of what's going on, although I have read that the identity of the Fifth dictates the path the story follows.

EDIT:

I've been thinking about the upcoming episodes in the re-watch, and those a little further off. Reading the first few posts in this thread I was retrospectively surprised that Osprey (it happened to be Osprey, I'd be surprised if it was anyone) mentioned that he preferred Season Three to Season Two, which is something I've often stated too. The consensus of opinion on this forum is that the show got worse season by season.

I think (and the re-watch will help me decide) I might feel just the opposite. Season One was a great, gritty, realistic sci-fi show. My overall memory of it is of dark, claustrophobic environments, probably because episodes like Colonial Day, where they did get out in the open air (sort of - visually at least) failed to grip me, so don't play as big a part in my memory. That darkness and claustrophobia is fine, I'm not knocking it. My overall memories of Season Two are based around the opening episodes on Kobol, and the current Home episodes, and also the founding of New Caprica. The Pegasus story arc is a big, big part of Season Two, but there is more memorable stuff on the surface of planets in daytime, in luscious vegetation, and often of uplifting moments like Sharon's speech to Adama or Caprica Six and Boomer, along with much more information about Cylons and Cylon society, and so my feelings towards Season Two are more optimistic. I liked Season Two better than Season One.

Joe made a point about the seasons being too long for this kind of show, at twenty episodes a season, and maybe they should have run at twelve or thirteen episodes, like Season One did. I think if you cut out the chaff of Seasons Two and Three (you all know which episodes I mean) and compared three twelve/thirteen episode seasons, I'd like Season Three even better than Season Two (New Caprica/Exodus/reintegration of the malcontents into the fleet, the algae planet story arc, more glimpses into Cylons onboard the Basestar, and the whole Maelstrom/Baltar's trial/Watchtower Four crack at the end).

From what I've seen so far, I think Season Four tops them all. Episode by episode the storyline has been ramping up with no filler - as Jamie Bamber said, it's all muscle and no fat.

So I think (filler episodes aside) I've enjoyed each season better than the one before, and I wondered if anyone else felt the same, or do most people think Season Four has rescued a slide in quality?

[Sgt Teta]

Other than "The Unit", and the standard trashy talk shows my girlfriend makes me watch, BSG is the only show i watch regularly.

To say it's the best thing ever shown on TV, may be an overstatement, but it all depends on your point of view... for me, its easily the best show i've ever watched on TV. It's the first show ever compelling enough for me to buy the DVD's and rewatch. It's the first show i can remember that's had me and my parents, friends and family arguing over ethics, morallity and philosophy.

And it's certainly the first show i've ever seen, thats made me truely... honestly, what to be there.

[westie]

I find this a really difficult question to think about (i.e. which season is best - well, obviously I like different arcs and ideas in all of them), but the main points that come to mind are:

1) Reducing the season to 12-13 episodes. I really, really don't understand this viewpoint. Less episodes = less BSG. :eek: And even the so-called 'filler episodes' are better than anything else that's on.

2) People don't seem to be ever happy. I'm not directing this at anyone here, I'm talking about the viewing public as a whole. :) So many people praised 'Water' because it dealt with the gritty reality of supplies, yet didn't like 'Dirty Hands' despite it doing the same thing. People liked the political freedom vs survival topic of abortion in 'The Captain's Hand', but not similar issues about medical rights in 'The Woman King'.

People like different things in a TV show. Head over to the sci-fi forums sometime (something I try and avoid the majority of the time :skep:) and see the people petitioning RDM for Kara and Lee to get married and have babies, others wanting more space battles, others who want to deal with social unrest and supplies withing the fleet, and so on and so on. BSG is so awesome because it manages to deal with such diverse issues within the *short* timespan that is 22 episodes, and yet hardly ever forgoes character development.

My personal opinion is, and I really don't mean this to sound combative, is that if you don't like a particular episode for some reason, skip it. It doesn't necessarily mean it was a bad episode, it just means that it didn't appeal to *you*. :prrr:

3) As an additional point, certain episodes which people thought were sub-par on a first watch, 'The Road Less Travelled' for example, or 'Dirty Hands', imo, are far better on a re-watch, without either the 'I've been waiting an entire week for this episode and it didn't tell me any more about the cylon civil war' expectation, or indeed the ability to skip episodes to get to answers that comes with a first time watch online or via DVD. I know I, for example, watched seasons 1-3 for the first time online, and skipped 'Hero' cause I wanted to get to UB (my friend described it as "the most frakked-up, twisted, but hottest episode ever"). 'The Road Less Travelled' for example, despite me finding it slightly disappointing first time round, is an excellent episode, and was largely ruined by horrendous spoiler-promo footage.

Ok, :rant:over. I'm done!

EDIT: I'm a rook! Woo yay

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I find this a really difficult question to think about (i.e. which season is best - well, obviously I like different arcs and ideas in all of them), but the main points that come to mind are:

1) Reducing the season to 12-13 episodes. I really, really don't understand this viewpoint. Less episodes = less BSG. :eek: And even the so-called 'filler episodes' are better than anything else that's on.

To be honest, the more densely packed the story, the more layered the story, the better.

Also, in the 12-13 episodes, the production team is even more pressured to come up with something excellent. Plus it's easier to refine a smaller amount of episodes than a larger amount.

RDM himself noted that it was harder to come up with stories to fill the 20 episodes, and admits to doing cheats here and there.

The issue that happened in Season 2, and greater in Season 3, was that the people behind the scenes had made a decision, but did a variety of course corrections. In Season 2, the "Pegasus" cliffhanger had no decent resolution (something that RDM admitted to later on) that they could come up with until later, hence "Resurrection Ship". Also, in Season 2, there were some pretty horrendous episodes (BSG wise), which include "Black Market" and "Sacrifice".

In Season 3, the later half had to deal with the "Sagittaron arc", where Baltar and Zarek played prominent roles. Of course, when that went away, they rushed around and threw in Romo Lampkin, fluff to the trial, and the Final Five schtick.

(Fortunately, RDM and company were able, in my view, to explain the Final Five in a very sensible way. You guys won't know what I'm talking about until January '09, but I'm fairly pleased with the results as I've seen them so far. Yeah, Timbo, Tigh's a frakkin' Cylon. Deal with it.)

And, yes, they're fundamentally different.

2) People don't seem to be ever happy. I'm not directing this at anyone here, I'm talking about the viewing public as a whole. :) So many people praised 'Water' because it dealt with the gritty reality of supplies, yet didn't like 'Dirty Hands' despite it doing the same thing. People liked the political freedom vs survival topic of abortion in 'The Captain's Hand', but not similar issues about medical rights in 'The Woman King'.

People like different things in a TV show. Head over to the sci-fi forums sometime (something I try and avoid the majority of the time :skep:) and see the people petitioning RDM for Kara and Lee to get married and have babies, others wanting more space battles, others who want to deal with social unrest and supplies withing the fleet, and so on and so on. BSG is so awesome because it manages to deal with such diverse issues within the *short* timespan that is 22 episodes, and yet hardly ever forgoes character development.

The issue I have with "Dirty Hands" is that it is a post-New Caprica episode, when it should've been an episode that occurs before that. (I'm thinking during the whole Cain-Pegasus thing.)

The issue I have with "Pegasus" as a whole is that Cain wasn't around longer, and that would have made things a lot better had she been around, IMO. (For instance, I'm fond of the idea of the RTF being pursued by "Pegasus" as ruthlessly as the Cylons pursue them, in a "Captain Ahab" sort of way.)

My personal opinion is, and I really don't mean this to sound combative, is that if you don't like a particular episode for some reason, skip it. It doesn't necessarily mean it was a bad episode, it just means that it didn't appeal to *you*. :prrr:

True, from a certain point of view. If you're Ben Kenobi, then that would be "true, from a certain point of view". :lol:

And there are just bad BSG episodes of television to begin with. "The Woman King" and the poorly written "Hero" come to mind.

"Hero" was poorly conceived because it should've really been a post-Adama-close-call-with-death-by-being-shot after he reunites the Fleet. The whole idea of Adama having "started the Cylon war" was bullshit to begin with, and RDM acknowledges the fact (in his podcast) that the whole point of the idea was to be absurd. However, by doing so, he overstepped the bounds of storytelling and trampled on any suspension of disbelief that the viewer brought with them.

The whole "should've-been-two-year" discrepancy thing doesn't really bother me—although it should've been corrected instead of the mindless, vehement defense of it that Eick and Moore give it... but it is what it is—but it is really the placement of the events of the episode.

Additionally, the whole "Cylon virus" thing was poorly thought out, in my very humble, yet informed, opinion. It ranks up there with Baltar's "miracle cure" that happens to save both Hera and Roslin in "Epiphanies". Talk about killin' two birds with one stone! Deus ex machina! Deus ex machina!

That kind of crap is why SF gets a bad name.

"The Woman King" was basically a shell of an episode that would be better of as your run-of-the-mill Star Dreck: The First Politically Correct Degeneration, since the whole Sagittaron arc crap was jettisoned, and you're left with people suddenly hating on Sagittarons when there's really very little evidence of this before hand.

If I wanted a morality play, I would grab a DVD of Star Dreck and pop it in my player.

[timbo]

So, Tigh and the others are cylons. Straight from the horses mouth. I believe it now, after the recent interview with Aaron Douglas and now Joe. Fair enough, I was wrong. Not the first time.

I still think BSG is a great show, but I am losing heart a little. Last night, I was watching an episode of prison break. I did a deal with a friend - he watched BSG, and I watched this. It is about the only other thing I watch on TV. It has been kind of a thing, me and my wife watching an episode a night after the kids go to bed. Season one was ok, I suppose. Season two began badly and just got more and more absurd. Last night my wife finally said this is stupid, and went to bed after five minutes of an episode. I thought to myself, she is right, and decided to sort of fast forward through the last two discs just to see what happened. The story more or less disappeared up its own arse. It was an insult to anyone who was a serious fan of the show. It was like story written by a child for homework. Anyway, at the end, it didn´t seem to really finish so I looked on the internet at about three in the morning and found out there is actually a fourth series. In trying to find out what happened, I came across a forum where people were talking about this show the same way we talk about BSG. I don´t think BSG will do the same as Prison Break, but I kinda realised that ultimately, because of the nature of how its made and the ratings hungry culture of the world of TV, it will not be able to answer its own questions. I thought last night, while watching that dross, that I should probably brace myself for something similar with Bsg. I hope not, and whatever happens it will have been a noble effort, but damn, it really seemed like something different at the start.


Tigh is a cylon.

[pagad]

To barge into this thread with all the subtlety of a brick, I think BSG is the best television out there at the moment because generally speaking I couldn't give a toss about other television.

I'm a sci-fi fanatic - but I only like good science-fiction. Therefore, I hate 90-95% of the sci-fi that is actually available to me. Prior to BSG, I'd given up good sci-fi programmes on TV as a lost cause (no, I have never seen Babylon 5, and with any luck I will be getting the first season for my birthday) having to make do, until late 2007, with the new series of Doctor Who (which is entertaining but utter garbage) as far as television was concerned. Before that I exclusively got my sci-fi fix from movies, books and games.

So I'd been seeing snippets of BSG for ages (I particularly remember seeing the Raiders shut down Galactica's last squadron of Vipers in the mini, literally years before I got to see it) but I can never get near the television normally. In fact, that snippet made me determined to somehow see the show any way I could at some point.

And it wasn't until Razor came out that I actually got the opportunity.

In any case, I was blown away etc etc. That's all been heard before. BSG is the only TV programme I have ever been determined to see absolutely everything of. It was the only programme that managed to combine "kersplodes-in-space", so to speak (and that is a big reason why I watch BSG, by the way. The Galactica is as important to me as any one of the characters, and seeing her in action is always a joy) with an intelligent plot and truly exellent acting. Let's not forget that said "kersplodes" are implemented in such a way as to rival Hollywood blockbusters.

I fear BSG lost the plot somewhat when S2 ended. S3, barring a few episodes, was pretty forgettable (especially since I absolutely hated the New Caprica arc, which seems to be one that somewhat redeems S3 in the eyes of most people). Among other things, it watered down the Cylons to a bunch of naive-if-ruthless children rather than the sinister, unstoppable menace that they had been in the previous two seasons, and as for S4, the recent focus on spirituality and ambiguity has been far too heavy, flabby and pretentious compared to the previous seasons. But even at its lowest point (excluding, perhaps, Black Market) it's been far better than the alternative avalanche of dross comprising most other TV.

[genji2000]

It's weird what attracts people to this show. I watched the Miniseries because I was brow-beaten into it, and afterwards I thought wow, this is serious television, on a par with GBH and the like. That's what made me keep going. By the time we got into the religious/mystic elements in Hand of God I was hooked. The 'splosional/pacing elements were a hook, for sure, but what made it stand out to me was the epic fantasy and quasi-religious nature of the storylines... that and the psychology of playing a Cylon playing a human. Up until Hand of God I was gripped by the sci-fi show, but from there the whole character element took on an additional dimension and I still think each season was better than the last.

It'd be interesting to see a public poll on what you like best about the show: the action/sci-fi, character interaction, religious/historical depth, etc.

[pagad]

It'd be interesting to see a public poll on what you like best about the show: the action/sci-fi, character interaction, religious/historical depth, etc.

Good idea, actually. Want to do the honours, or shall I?

[genji2000]

I don't. I was thinking about it and I don't think I could come up with adequate descriptions. I mean like for character: I'd lump friendships (Adama and Tigh) in with 'shippers (Kara and Lee), but are you voting for character development or 'shipping? Maybe it'd be best to keep it really limited and just see how people vote. I think the main thing is to make it public so we can see how we each voted.

[pagad]

Well, you could go "Character Relationships: Friendships" and "Character Relationships: Romantic"?

I will go and have a go.

edit: tommorow. I am tired and I want to go to bed.