"The Watchtower"

[theConflict365]

I'm not sure if anyone already noted this, but given the latest development, especially regarding the theory the Fleet is standing on the sight of the Jehovah's Witnesses Watchtower Building (see notes on Revelations), and all the religious overtones the show has taken (I suppose early on) it seems like the story is taking a certain historic arc; related to perhaps several empires that were known for being polytheistic. I like that aforementioned idea of the Watchtower theme having some mysterious significance for several reasons.

One, it seems to have a correlation or, at least, an allusion to the Watchtower song by Bob Dylan and appears to have a deeper meaning.Two, since it is supposedly the sight for Jehovah's Witnesses it led me to study further the importance and meaning behind that icon for the respective religious group.

I searched one of their study aids, sort of a scripture guide, under that word and found only a few references, surprisingly; although that was probably a good thing given the Bible's breadth of scripture. Anyways, there was one reference in particular which I found very compelling and, perhaps, connected to the theme of the show.

It's in Isaiah 21:8 but the word Watchtower, and Watchman (for you Watchmen fans) is featured throughout that chapter. In the King James it reads, "And he cried, A [sic] (or as a) lion: My lord, I stand continually upon the watchtower in the daytime, and I am set my ward whole nights."

While not completely telling of anything, really, the meaning becomes clearer under the context of the entire chapter. To paraphrase, what it proclaims is the judgment of Babylon, which much like the Colonies is polytheist, and its destruction by the Medes and Persians. Besides Islam, these two groups originally were of the Zoroastrianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism) faith, which (see Wikipedia: Persians: Religion) is supposedly one, if not the, first monotheistic religion. The relationship mirrors that of the polytheistic Colonials and their destruction by the monotheistic Cylons.

I've hear the theory before that their connection is also similar to the Roman Empire and it's sort of internal fall at the hands of Christianity, as well as other factors such as over-development obviously; and I think that works of course too as there have been many allusions to Jesus and Christianity as well.

If this theory really does apply, and of course we must wait to confirm the location of that last shot at the shore, then the destruction of the Colonies would tie in similarly (and very starkly) to the endings of other polytheist empires like Babylon and Rome and the rise of single-god spiritualism by common citizens; and the rise of some new government/power entity. And furthermore, it would lay prudence to the saying we have heard repeated throughout the show, "All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again..." i.e. (in whatever order you prefer) the holocaust of Earth, the exodus of Kobol, the bombardment of the Colonies. Whether this was a conscious decision by Ron Moore or simply an influence he took on while researching, and I think we can all agree he and his writing staff do much in depth, it can at least be surmised to be a subconcious one or, simply enough, an intriguing pattern...

[Osprey]

ok, w/o putting words into your mouth, what i'm getting from your [very well written] post is that you are presuming the following:
* the fleet did arrive in nyc
* they arrived in either a near or somewhat distant future, after some horrible nuclear blast has devastated nyc
* the "end state" of the colonials may very well be coexisting in some form with the cylons, under the framework of a monotheisitc religion [be it the cylons, baltar's, a hybrid, or sumtin' else]

i can see much of that, but i have a query of my own -- today, nyc is of a society that [speaking in general here] is already monotheistic. "most" of nyc, of the u.s.a, and [strictly by the numbers] the planet, adheres to one of a few monotheistic systems. What then could have been the trigger for the calamity on earth since it [presumably] couldn't have been a polytheistic society falling to a monotheistic one?

[Aurora]

Where is the source of the Jehovah's Witness angle? I haven't heard about that....

ty.

[genji2000]

TOS was based on Mormon scripture, as I'm sure you're aware. There are flavours of Hinduism (title theme), Buddhism (reincarnation), even Christianity (if you want to look at Baltar in that way) in TNS. At the end of Revelations the characters appear to be standing on the ruins of the Watchtower building in Brooklyn, although the ruins themselves are, we think, of the Temple of, ahem, Aurora.

I don't think we have any source that states such-and-such is based on this religion and something else is based on another. It's an interesting topic for discussion, though.

[Zod]

i can see much of that, but i have a query of my own -- today, nyc is of a society that [speaking in general here] is already monotheistic. "most" of nyc, of the u.s.a, and [strictly by the numbers] the planet, adheres to one of a few monotheistic systems. What then could have been the trigger for the calamity on earth since it [presumably] couldn't have been a polytheistic society falling to a monotheistic one?

This could be answered by the reasoning that we don't really know how many cycles have passed from present day Earth to the events in BSG .

The destruction, chase, resettlement cycle may have been repeated many many times, and each time, the religions switch around.

In 'Flesh and Blood' Leoben says;

Conoy: Each of us plays a role; each time a different role. Maybe the last time I was the interrogator and you were the prisoner. The players change, the story remains the same. And this time – this time – your role is to deliver my soul unto God. Do it for me. It’s your destiny. And mine. (He pauses) And I told you I had a surprise for you. Are you ready?

This suggests that the scenario has been played out so many times before. I am under the impression that the show is set 100's of thousands of years in the future.

great post theConflict365!

[Aurora]

TOS was based on Mormon scripture, as I'm sure you're aware.

I've not heard that before...so I guess I'm still a nugget. :lol: I get the whole thirteeth tribe connection, but were the Mormons the first to develop that idea?


edit: are there any pics of the Watchtower building to compare?

[timbo]

This is an interesting thread, but I think some of you are putting too much emphasis on religious difference. Monotheism, or polytheism in this case could just as well be the ones wearing red shirts, and the ones wearing blue shirts. The cycle´s destructive nature is caused by man´s shortcomings, not his beliefs. I think a person´s conception of God / Gods is not at all important, not in the show and not here. The important thing is to look listen and feel for the presence of God, and then slowly more will be revealed. Sometimes our childish insistence on putting name tags and faces on everything really hampers us.
The watchtower idea of lookouts waiting for evil to manifest itself is relevent to the show not in terms of cylons and humans, but in the darkness that takes shape and form from time to time, whether it is the Nazi holocaust or the cylon attempted genocide.

If left unchecked and unresolved, evil will take human form just like spittle gravy. When it is strong enough, it gains mass and attracts more evil to itself. Cavill probably started as a speck of spittle gravy in the bottom of the pan, and now look !!!

[Osprey]

"This suggests that the scenario has been played out so many times before. I am under the impression that the show is set 100's of thousands of years in the future."

well, ok, but beyond that one s1 conversation, do we have any other evidence that it's that far away; all the various "signposts" the coloials found were measured in the thousands of years it seemed ...

[genji2000]

I've not heard that before...so I guess I'm still a nugget. :lol: I get the whole thirteeth tribe connection, but were the Mormons the first to develop that idea?


edit: are there any pics of the Watchtower building to compare?

Glen Larson was a Mormon and drew on this knowledge in establishing the original story arc. I don't know anything of Mormon scripture, except what I've read about in relation to Glen Larson and TOS. I'm a Mormon nugget.

The Watchtower building looks nothing like the ruins of the Temple of Athena.

http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/sedewts.jpg

[theConflict365]

Well, I'm glad some folks checked out what I said. I can obviously see there are holes in this theory, which I don't consider really mine but a medley of various ideas other folks have propagated, but I really just wanted to give you guys something to chew on during the long slog that is this prolonged ending to our show. Ha-ha. =OP'

I honestly don't know if this whole Watchtower thing has any bearing on the show or if it's just a big, huge coincidence; my guess is that it won't really have any effect on the outcome of the various story-threads and characters. However, that said, I do believe there is some kind of influence or connection, whether its preconsious or inherent within Ron Moore's greater arc, to the Roman and Babylonian empires and their fall.

I'm not even saying that these culture/empires were necessarily bad or should have fallen -- I'm not that reactionary or historically conservative -- on the contrary I think there's merit to the legacy of both Babylonians and Romans. The former were considered to be the cradle of civilization and developed amazing advances in math, science and government, while the latter did just the same, while furthering democracy (albeit archaic), architecture -- especially roads, buildings and aqueducts -- defense and the collection of knowledge (libraries). All of these accomplishments advanced our planet and selves in ways we cannot even imagine, changing the way we interacted with each other as a society and a species.

And while this nuance may have not been his original goal when devising this "reimagined" series, it probably became something he, and perhaps his writing staff, took as something to compare with when structuring a long arc-story; the pantheon of Greco-Roman gods is enough to at least make you wonder. Then there's the rise of monotheism in a falling multi-god empire -- it just all seems to correlate, although I don't know to what end. But this is just one element, I admit, and not necessarily the driving theme behind the show.

And, mind you, a lot these ideas have already been offered by other forum members, as well as the notes in the episode wiki (esp. for Revelations), I'm just kind of delving a bit deeper into them. Lastly, a lot of what sprung this forward was just researching what Watchtower means to the Jehovah's Witnesses -- if anyone has any other theories behind it in any other Judeo-Christian groups (or any other religions in general) I certainly would be open to them.

But thanks for your thoughts everyone,

theConflict.

[timbo]

Great post, really interesting. I think that a lot of the references in the show are more pointers toward ideas rather than concrete details to give plot line clues. These references are to suggest the way that we should be thinking about the show, and are not in themselves indicators of what has happened. The example of the Babylonians is a good one. I don´t really know much, but I had the general idea - that although they advanced rapidly in a technology and social sense, ultimately they were destroyed by their own collective and individual defects. The same as the Romans and the same as we might be, if we don´t learn quick. These cycles of great civilisations flourishing and then dying, is because they forget to monitor themselves and forget to put in place mechanisms to prevent human shortcomings from flourishing and destroying them. I am talking about greed, lust for power, loss of humility, etc. Lee´s speech was, I think about breaking the cycle of rise and fall. and creating a cycle of rise and rise. Ultimately. it´s probably not gonna work, but it is better than the alternative.
I keep thinking about the line "the meek shall inherit the Earth, lately, and I don´t think it means the downtrodden and those without power will later have their turn, it means that the humbled, not humble, will inherit the Earth, those who have been broken by their own weakness, faced it and overcome it, and are ready to learn from this and live accordingly.

There endeth today´s sermon.

[theConflict365]

Ah, very good. Well said, my friend. I've never really thought about that quote. But, I guess you're right about that -- a lot of biblical passages, and aphorisms in general for that matter, do have a deeper, more practical application as you mature than what one might think. The show seems to stress that point: that things are temporal and to really take advantage of what one may call 'God's blessings' you need to take advantage of the opportunity. Much like that other saying, "the Gods (for us God) help those who help themselves," and if you don't that opportunity may never come again.

Thanks for thoughts.

[genji2000]

"The meek shall inherit the Earth" may just be Jesus stating the obvious - that it passes to our children when we die. He doesn't categorically state that they will remain meek after they've inherited it.

/jus' sayin'.

[timbo]

"The meek shall inherit the Earth" may just be Jesus stating the obvious - that it passes to our children when we die. He doesn't categorically state that they will remain meek after they've inherited it.

/jus' sayin'.

No, no, no, we have to look deeper at these quotes. They are the ones that have survived millenia. Most of the best quotes from the various bibles and spiritual writings seem to be either misinterpreted or misunderstood. This is only natural, I think. Understanding comes in its own time.

[genji2000]

No, no, no, we have to look deeper at these quotes. They are the ones that have survived millenia. Most of the best quotes from the various bibles and spiritual writings seem to be either misinterpreted or misunderstood. This is only natural, I think. Understanding comes in its own time.

Have you ever considered founding your own religion?

[smelly_feet]

i can see much of that, but i have a query of my own -- today, nyc is of a society that [speaking in general here] is already monotheistic. "most" of nyc, of the u.s.a, and [strictly by the numbers] the planet, adheres to one of a few monotheistic systems. What then could have been the trigger for the calamity on earth since it [presumably] couldn't have been a polytheistic society falling to a monotheistic one?


If there's more than one monotheistic system in place, isn't that the same as polytheism when you look at the human race as a whole?

We are all men in Gods eyes....that kinda thing.

[genji2000]

If there's more than one monotheistic system in place, isn't that the same as polytheism when you look at the human race as a whole?

We are all men in Gods eyes....that kinda thing.

I believe (corrections please?) that ALL monotheistic religions worships the same god: Judaism, Islam, Christianitiism - same god, same Jesus (except Judaism sees him as a bloke rather than a prophet or a profit).

[Neakal]

I believe (corrections please?) that ALL monotheistic religions worships the same god: Judaism, Islam, Christianitiism - same god, same Jesus (except Judaism sees him as a bloke rather than a prophet or a profit).

All Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) worship the same God though Islam and Judaism (as you mentioned) see Jesus as a human being rather than the son of god.

There are other religions with Monotheism or Monotheistic elements in them that don't worship "the" god. Zoroastrianism, I think, is one such. Elements in Hinduism also have Monotheistic aspects with regards to how they view the unity of everything as a single entity (which is called Brahman if memory serves right.)

Now, the existence of multiple Monotheistic religions needn't necessarily create polytheism. In the case of Abrahamic religions, they simply did not accept other gods and insisted on the truth of their own.

[genji2000]

If there's more than one monotheistic system in place, isn't that the same as polytheism...?

...the existence of multiple Monotheistic religions needn't necessarily create polytheism. In the case of Abrahamic religions, they simply did not accept other gods and insisted on the truth of their own.

Smelly: no, of course not. You know that. You can't have a (religiously unified) single human entity if they believe in different gods. My point is that we all believe in the same god and if we'd just stop f**king about we could learn to live in ebony and ivory.

Neakal: "the truth" being "thou shalt not worship any muslim or hippy gods" rather than the "look, there's you lot, and there's me, right, and we've all got to learn to get along or else we'll find american imperialism and hardline fundamentalist regionalism not seeing eye-to-eye and creating a new f**king Jerusalem in any ten-square-feet of desert they can find." Church of England tea-and-scones god.

The world has never cried out for a secular military dictatorship as it does now.

[Neakal]

Neakal: "the truth" being "thou shalt not worship any muslim or hippy gods" rather than the "look, there's you lot, and there's me, right, and we've all got to learn to get along or else we'll find american imperialism and hardline fundamentalist regionalism not seeing eye-to-eye and creating a new f**king Jerusalem in any ten-square-feet of desert they can find." Church of England tea-and-scones god.

The world has never cried out for a secular military dictatorship as it does now.

As you mentioned, someone recoginising that the three Abrahamic religions worship the same god would see Judaism, Christianity and Islam as the kindred religions rather than sworn enemies. The fact that Qur'an acknowledges Jesus and Moses (and many others that came before) as prophets of god clearly shows that people need to get rid of the religious fanatiscsm that blinds them and actually read the books they kill people for. And ofcourse Bible could not have talked about Islam since it didn't exist by then :p Other than that small nitpicking detail, yea youre pretty much spot on :)

As for the secular military comment, really? To me there seems to be a (disturbing) trend around the world of attacking secularism these days.

Were going offtopic now :)

[genji2000]

As for the secular military comment, really? To me there seems to be a (disturbing) trend around the world of attacking secularism these days.

Were going offtopic now :)

No, not really, but I think the influence of fundamentalism must be kept in check, and yes off-topic, sorry.

[theConflict365]

I think we're kind of veering off from what I originally proposed. I was merely pointing out that the Watchtower icon had some deeper meaning to the story than what appears. And when I referenced it in the Bible it clearly discussed the fall of Babylon. In so reading that, I noticed this story, BSG, seems to follow the arc of a falling polytheistic state to a growing undercurrent of a monotheistic following or opposition.

That being said the destruction of the Colonies seems to parallel this Biblical event very clearly, especially compared to the exodus of Kobol or the apocalypse on Earth; although that event has yet to be fully divulged. But perhaps the religious aspect of the cycle is not as important when looking at the example of Earth. In this respect, maybe it's more important that we look at the cultural character of the planet rather than any religious doctrines pervading the people.

The Bible seems to illustrate the state of Babylon as one of excess and indulgences, whether this is fair in historical terms is another matter. But we can surmise that this is similar to contemporary culture's dichotomy between the first world nations' abundance of resources and excessive entertaining, compared to their third world counter-parts dearth; albeit in a very generalized sense of theory.

Further a class issue, and how some people of mainly mid to higher classes enjoy luxury and excess resources while disregarding the behest of others, and their questioning of that squandering. This could be the ultimate logic behind the demise of Earth and the continued cycle of man's destruction and violence, which is usually directed towards himself at the cost his environment and necessities. So ultimately the religious aspect may not be as important when applying the Biblical arc to Earth, and not the Colonies.

[BSGfan-atic]

If L. Ron Hubbard, a science-fiction writer can start his own religion (Scientology), why not timbo? Of course, the big question for me would be if it was based on BSG or not.:lol:

[Osprey]

iirc, jedi worship is an officially registered religion in the UK. perhaps whilst on holiday, timbo can get "timbo's fantastic blatar/tigh/cylon worship extravaganza" registered ...
:-)
:-)

[Prolescum]

I know hundreds of thousands put Jedi as their official religion on the last census, (it was hilarious).
I'm not sure they'd allow that.
Ever heard of the church of the sub genius ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Sub-Genius)

[Neakal]

The Jedi thing started as a reaction from people who did not like their religion being queried.

As with always some people took it seriously and thats when you end up with Jedi being noted as an actual religion.

[Osprey]

well, timbo's endeavor could perhaps as popular as "Bob" but i doubt it ...
:-)

[spidey3]

My point is that we all believe in the same god and if we'd just stop f**king about we could learn to live in ebony and ivory.

Who is this "we"?

I don't believe in the same god as you or anyone else -- because as an atheist I don't believe in ANY god.

[genji2000]

Who is this "we"?

All Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism)

It was just a few posts earlier.

[theConflict365]

Ha-ha. You guys are hilarious. I just wish the show would hurry up and end...this feels like the longest four seasons in TV history; excluding a hit HBO drama. ;)

[Gigit]

The view from the Watchtower building of the Brooklyn bridge next to the image from Revelations (the Watchtower building is a former Theater/Opera house)
http://www.popcritics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bsgbrooklynbridgeyx0.jpg

[Chiefchess]

:)Great responses everyone! I got a different theory (I think-I haven't seen it posted anywhere else) about the Watchtower.

I agree that the Watchtower is a reference to the fall of Babylon. Now consider this-according to legend, Babylon was built on the site of the original Tower of Babel. To those not familiar with the Genesis story, the people of earth came together after the Great Flood and got the bright idea "Let's build a tower that will be so high that we can climb it and see God" So the people set to work on the tower (the Tower of Babel). God was displeased and caused the population to start speaking many different languages from each other. Thus, the people could no longer communicate with each other and dispersed to populate the Earth.

I have read many posts concerning the Watchtower song and have read what we have concluded. I am now stating the general theories and following them up with my new theories so we can compare them.

1. (original) The Watchtower song is refering to the 12 colonies
1. (new) The Watchtower song is refering to the cylons
Consider the following: If the song is refering in part to the Tower of Babel, then the song must be directed as a message about the fate of the cylons and not the Colonies. The cylons were the ones that were once united in a common goal (to destroy the humans), but now they are split into many groups and have seperated from each other. The humans are not split in this way.

2. (original) The joker and the thief are Apollo and Starbuck
2. (new) The joker and the thief are Baltar and Caprica 6
Baltar lead a fine playboy life back at Caprica (hence the joker), until Caprica 6 seduced him and got the defense codes from him (hence the thief).

3. (original) The four horsmen in the song are the 1) cylons or 2) 4 horsemen of the apocolypse
3. (new) The four horsmen are Tory, Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders
Why did our four cylons hear this song when they did? If we believe that the Watchtower song is describing the fate of the humans, then the message came several years too late for our four cylons to do anything about it because the 12 Colonies (aka Babylon) are already destroyed. On the other hand, I believe that the song was a warning to the S7 cylons. It wasn't until the F4 cylons were switched on (aka became the four horsemen) that the S7 cylons had their civil war. Consider also that the four cylons who heard the song have some purpose that we still don't know. Perhaps by being "switched on" they inadventenly achieved one of their goals-to split apart the cylons into several groups (the good old "divide and conquer" strategy).

I would appreciate any commentary on this idea. Thanks!:)

[genji2000]

I would appreciate any commentary on this idea. Thanks!:)

Why didn't god just strike the tower down? I mean, what kind of sick, vindictive bastard pulls a petty trick like making them all start speaking different languages? What was it supposed to achieve? Presumably they still had the blueprints to work from, so they could have finished the tower if they'd wanted to, if they'd felt so inclined.

So he floods the entire planet, killing millions of people because he didn't approve of their morals, then as soon as the flood's over he strikes down the survivors with communication deficiency syndrome just because he's a bit cross that they want to climb up and say 'hi'. Was there any plausible reason for him to do this? Was there any link to anything that had happened before?

[Prolescum]

He was deciding who HIS 'chosen' people were...
It's interesting that (assuming time only goes back 5 thousand years) after seemingly many years of interfering with his creation, destroying his peoples' enemies (doesn't he love everyone?), flooding the planet and generally being an all round bad guy, God took a step back, gave us a rainbow and said 'never again...'
Nobody's heard from him since.


I think you're reading too much into the song, it was probably chosen for the idea behind the song or its general content, I seriously doubt if you can apply a character to each of the song's protagonists, nor its narrator. It has resonance as allegory (as does the story of babel) as the song was meant to, and just as it is in the Galactican Universe.

[13th_Cylon]

Why didn't god just strike the tower down? I mean, what kind of sick, vindictive bastard pulls a petty trick like making them all start speaking different languages? What was it supposed to achieve? Presumably they still had the blueprints to work from, so they could have finished the tower if they'd wanted to, if they'd felt so inclined.

So he floods the entire planet, killing millions of people because he didn't approve of their morals, then as soon as the flood's over he strikes down the survivors with communication deficiency syndrome just because he's a bit cross that they want to climb up and say 'hi'. Was there any plausible reason for him to do this? Was there any link to anything that had happened before?


Genji if you want the actual answer to your hissy fit which kinda takes us off topic here it is.

Earth was created by God. That means its Gods not yours or mine. People were created by God so he owns you. When people say to God i want to run my own life, God says ok that your choice but you don't belong in MY world anymore go find your own world. However because you cannot be your own god you dont have much of a future. This is kind of ironic as BSG has beginnins from Mormon folkore which tells us we can become our own god on our own planet.

Remember this.......one day you will meet this God. It might be tommorrow when a bus runs you down or in a few years when some disease gets you. He will put up on his heavenly internet browser your quote about him being "vindictive". Who's the funny boy then?

Or you believe that the earth "evolved" and that complex design in humans "evolved" in that case it dont matter for you.

[thevarrior]

When people say to God i want to run my own life, God says ok that your choice but you don't belong in MY world anymore go find your own world. However because you cannot be your own god you dont have much of a future.Do you realize how much bullshit you just said? According to your logic God is basically fucking with us by giving us a false free will. This is why I consider the fundamentals of the Bible of Judaism and Christianity to be base nonsense. It also suggests that God is petty and cruel, which I do not believe (even though I do believe in some sort of God) and that he randomly interfered with one group of Semites but let the rest of the world rot - and that too made his people go through pogroms and executions and then commanded them to slaughter others when he deemed fit - and for them to be slaughtered. That's pathetic and cruel.

Remember this.......one day you will meet this God. It might be tommorrow when a bus runs you down or in a few years when some disease gets you. He will put up on his heavenly internet browser your quote about him being "vindictive". Who's the funny boy then?Wow. You actually tried the "OH YEAH WELL WHEN YOU DIE YOU'LL PROBABLY GO TO HELL" tactic. Wow. I cannot believe in a God who damns people to hell for doing good deeds and trying to make the world a better place, but just refuse to take a sacrament or believe that the fact that some one dude turned wine into water therefore he is god incarnate is an illogical conclusion.

Or you believe that the earth "evolved" and that complex design in humans "evolved" in that case it dont matter for you. ... if you don't believe evolution occurs you either have no scientific education or you're purposefully indicating that the basis of all biology is a lie.

[13th_Cylon]

Apologies to those who feel this is off topic but cest le vie.

Do you realize how much bullshit you just said? According to your logic God is basically fucking with us by giving us a false free will. This is why I consider the fundamentals of the Bible of Judaism and Christianity to be base nonsense. It also suggests that God is petty and cruel, which I do not believe (even though I do believe in some sort of God) and that he randomly interfered with one group of Semites but let the rest of the world rot - and that too made his people go through pogroms and executions and then commanded them to slaughter others when he deemed fit - and for them to be slaughtered. That's pathetic and cruel.

God's message to mankind has been to love each other, put each others interests ahead of each other. It is mankinds choice to ignore that and kill each other. Don't put the blame on God.

Wow. You actually tried the "OH YEAH WELL WHEN YOU DIE YOU'LL PROBABLY GO TO HELL" tactic. Wow. I cannot believe in a God who damns people to hell for doing good deeds and trying to make the world a better place, but just refuse to take a sacrament or believe that the fact that some one dude turned wine into water therefore he is god incarnate is an illogical conclusion.

It is not God's choice to remove people from his presence. People make that choice themselves.

... if you don't believe evolution occurs you either have no scientific education or you're purposefully indicating that the basis of all biology is a lie.

The odds of a complex organism such as a human being formed from pure evolution is as good as dropping all the parts of a 747 to earth and have them create a plane.

I'm not going to reply here as this is not the place. If you wish to discuss further then please send a pm.

[timbo]

Genji if you want the actual answer to your hissy fit which kinda takes us off topic here it is.

Bloody hell Genji, she has got your number mate. Hissy fits. That´s exactly what you have.

Earth was created by God. That means its Gods not yours or mine. People were created by God so he owns you. When people say to God i want to run my own life, God says ok that your choice but you don't belong in MY world anymore go find your own world. However because you cannot be your own god you dont have much of a future. This is kind of ironic as BSG has beginnins from Mormon folkore which tells us we can become our own god on our own planet.


I like this as well. And I really like what you posted later and got attacked by Varrior for, but I am too lazy to do all the multi quote messing about.

My basic beliefs centre around the idea that my purpose in life is to learn to allign my will with God´s will. The garden of Eden is an allegory to show us this. All the bible stuff is allegorical. The easy path is to take it all literally. The right way is to find the meaning and then apply it in our lives.

[Neakal]

I realise I did not contribute to this thread but is it possible to go back to the topic which was the meaning and implication of "Watchtower"?

I could (and was tempted to do so) give my own opinions with regards to certain points made about god and stuff but this is something with a Flame War potential. So lets not drag it that way.

Please.

[genji2000]

Bloody hell Genji, she has got your number mate. Hissy fits. That´s exactly what you have.

True enough. Pity she missed the point, which was a playful response to Chiefchess bothering to post an interesting account of her theories based on the thread so far that totally failed to address them and instead went off on a random lampoon of the Tower of Babel thing. I can't believe anyone took it seriously, but there you are.

I'm not sure if 13th_Cylon's statements reflect a personal opinion, or just the counter argument to the established fact of evolution, or even simply a rebuttal of my faux outrage, but I think it's wrong to assume that people who accept evolution fail to see the work of god in it. Evolution doesn't deny the existence of god, or even the validity of the bible, just its accuracy. I agree with what you say, that the bible is parabolic. It contains truth (if you wish to find truth in it), if not fact.

I realise I did not contribute to this thread but is it possible to go back to the topic which was the meaning and implication of "Watchtower"?

I could (and was tempted to do so) give my own opinions with regards to certain points made about god and stuff but this is something with a Flame War potential. So lets not drag it that way.

Please.

I'm not sure it's going to turn into a flame war, but I'm sorry if my silly flippancy offended anyone. I think thevarrior was quite robust in his opinion, as is his wont, but 13th_Cylon didn't overreact and the exchanges didn't get personal, much, so I'm not sure your concern about a flame war is warranted, but I'll keep an eye on it.

I'd be interested in your opinions though, if you want to bring the thread back on-topic.

[Neakal]

Allright. I may be wrong but I did see less intense discussions leading to a flame war. Not that this is one or the arguments were bad but, you know, thats the wibe I was beginning to get.

I personally can't think of that many opinions regarding the main topic except people find reasons to fight against eachother even when there is a common language. I even remember reading an article commenting on that few years ago for an essay. The opinions I was talking about was regarding god and evolution but I did not get a complete argument or one that was neutral in tone, hence decided not to post.

[genji2000]

Allright. I may be wrong but I did see less intense discussions leading to a flame war. Not that this is one or the arguments were bad but, you know, thats the wibe I was beginning to get.

I personally can't think of that many opinions regarding the main topic except people find reasons to fight against eachother even when there is a common language. I even remember reading an article commenting on that few years ago for an essay. The opinions I was talking about was regarding god and evolution but I did not get a complete argument or one that was neutral in tone, hence decided not to post.

There is a question in this, I think, which is whether there are any topics that are taboo and have no place on this forum. I think not. Religion rarely rears its head here (I think I remember one from way back in which Shane stepped in and cooled things down, and there was the recent Christians vs. gays 13th_Cylon umbrage, which I almost got involved in but no one else seemed to bother with). It does seem to be the most incendiary topic, which surprises me (but perhaps shouldn't since it's such a personal subject), so I wonder if we shouldn't have a thread for it as a place to take these flare-ups away from other threads. It might not be pretty but 13th_Cylon, thevarrior, I hope I, and everyone else should feel welcome here because of our interest in BSG, however much we might detest each other's religious or political beliefs.

I should also say (since you referred to it) that I don't believe threads should necessarily remain unswervingly focused on the OP's comments, and that meandering into other areas is the point of discussion, but I may be in a minority on that one.

And so, therefore, let loose the dogs of opinion on Chiefchess's excellent, if brushed aside (by me), theories...

[thevarrior]

Alright genji, I'll drop the issue or transfer it elsewhere. I recognize that it was inappropriate to try and perpetuate an argument, I apologize.

[genji2000]

Alright genji, I'll drop the issue or transfer it elsewhere. I recognize that it was inappropriate to try and perpetuate an argument, I apologize.

Er, sorry, I didn't mean to give you that impression. I don't think you need to apologise. It's your opinion and it's as valid as anyone else's. You are quite a 'robust' or strong personality. Nothing wrong with that.

[thevarrior]

Er, sorry, I didn't mean to give you that impression. I don't think you need to apologise. It's your opinion and it's as valid as anyone else's. You are quite a 'robust' or strong personality. Nothing wrong with that.

More like loud and annoying ;). Nah I just get easily annoyed with people who make blatantly circular or false statements.

[genji2000]

More like loud and annoying ;). Nah I just get easily annoyed with people who make blatantly circular or false statements.

Yeah, robust and loud and annoying. Nothing wrong with that. :lol:

[timbo]

This is all pretty cool. Genji, you are really growing into the moderator role.
Thevarrior, well done mate. It is really easy to go off on one, especially on the internet, but you didn´t. I probably sound a bit patronising, but I am sincere in my belief that this forum is special.
I personally think that if sensitive themes arise in a thread, people should be able to talk about them. Generally, the level of respect that nearly everyone has for the others is such that it rarely gets out of hand. Plus, the show is partly about conflicting religious ideas, so it seems natural that they pop up regularly in threads.

[genji2000]

Yeah, that's the thing - never go full retard, man.

[Chiefchess]

I post something that I expected to get some responses (and possibly some ridicule), and I come back to a religious war and then a truce! That's the last time I ever quote anything from Genesis! :lol:

Am I a Christian? Absolutely! Did I post my ideas as some sort of subconscience way of pushing my beliefs on another? No. I know that some Christians, like some members of all religious (and non-religious), are notorious for pressing their beliefs on a person. I am not such a person.

I believe, above all else, that God would want us (all people, not just Christians) to communicate with one another whether we agree or not.
By sharing our ideas in a respectful manner, we discover the hidden truths in many things and learn how alike we all truly are. That is why I like posting my ideas here. At least you all will give my ideas some thought and evaluate them as you see fit.

Interesting, isn't it? If the cylons and the colonists were as respectful in their communications as we are, then they would have solved alot of problems. Of course, that would mean that the cylons never would have bombed the colonies, the humans would not be on the run looking for Earth, and we wouldn't have a BSG forum because BSG would be boring!:lol:

Great job guys for putting your differences behind you and starting a truce worthy of "Revelations." (By the way Genji, I didn't take offense. I know you well enough to know you were just joking around, as you have always been respectful of my opinions in past posts. :thumbsup:)

Now that my sermon is done and the lovefest is over, it's back to business. Seriously, do you guys think my ideas have merit that the song "All Along the Watchtower" is a warning to the cylons and not the humans? Please post your thoughts!:D

[genji2000]

And you think your TV sucks? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7653456.stm)

[icklepants]

I think the most interesting thing about watchtower is the fact RDM wanted to use it in TNG before he managed to use it in BSG. Oooh look at the geeky use of initials rather than real words... Anyway, the question is what ties between TNG and BSG that could give the song relevence or is it simply a song that because of its ambiguity, can be happily shoe-horned into any sci-fi drama?

Interesting that the end of Next Gen was to do with the past, present and future coming together, and the question of whether the human race deserves to survive. Dah duh daaaaahhh...

[genji2000]

I think the most interesting thing about watchtower is the fact RDM wanted to use it in TNG before he managed to use it in BSG. Oooh look at the geeky use of initials rather than real words... Anyway, the question is what ties between TNG and BSG that could give the song relevence or is it simply a song that because of its ambiguity, can be happily shoe-horned into any sci-fi drama?

And Roswell. It's a good reason to criticise BSG and RDM. He's always wanted to shoehorn it into a show and BSG gave him the chance. If it weren't for Bear McCreary then the whole thing would have been painful and rubbish (as the dialogue inserts almost were).

[timbo]

Chiefchess, sorry mate, I actually meant to respond to your Babel idea, but forgot. I dont think the song has so much direct relevence as this, but your explanation of the "many tongues " thing was interesting. I never really understood that story and exactly what we are meant to take from it, until now. I am not a christian, but I have still found myself agreeing with a lot of what you have said about free will and a God who allows evil.

[thevarrior]

I think the most interesting thing about watchtower is the fact RDM wanted to use it in TNG before he managed to use it in BSG. Oooh look at the geeky use of initials rather than real words... Anyway, the question is what ties between TNG and BSG that could give the song relevence or is it simply a song that because of its ambiguity, can be happily shoe-horned into any sci-fi drama?

... really? TNG? I don't see McCreary's style of music fitting in there... I don't see how else they could have pulled off Watchtower.

[GoldWolf]

Now that my sermon is done and the lovefest is over, it's back to business. Seriously, do you guys think my ideas have merit that the song "All Along the Watchtower" is a warning to the cylons and not the humans? Please post your thoughts!:D

Chiefchess,

I think that your idea of the song as a warning to the cylons and not the humans makes a lot of sense. More sense than the other way around.

I give you more credit than I give RDM and the show's writers, though. I think they used the song simply because it's cool and it sorta fits in with the overall theme of the show. I don't think RDM and the writers used the song to confer any specific significance, as you have.

[pagad]

...Awww, hell. I missed all the drama. Again.

I have to admit, most of the religious aspects to the series fly completely over my head. I've always seen them as background elements that only serve to flesh out the Colonies and the Cylons as cultures seperate from our own.

I think they used the song simply because it's cool and it sorta fits in with the overall theme of the show.

Yeah, I think so too.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

It was Roswell where RDM wanted to use the song, not TNG.

And, yes, there is significance to the song.

[Pnutmaster]

And, yes, there is significance to the song.

:detective: Another excuse to blast "All Along the Watchtower".

[thevarrior]

It was Roswell where RDM wanted to use the song, not TNG.

And, yes, there is significance to the song.

That's good, almighty Joe (who hath info we hath not :D ). And that would probably make more sense, as it would be completely useless in TNG.

:detective: Another excuse to blast "All Along the Watchtower".

Actually my favorite of Bear McCreary's tracks is probably "Escape from the Farm", Season 2 soundtrack. It sounds epic.

[icklepants]

It was Roswell where RDM wanted to use the song, not TNG.

And, yes, there is significance to the song.

AAaaaaaaaaaahhhhh, don't do this to me. I remember reading that he wanted to use it in TNG but it didn't fit, and then again in some nameless sci-fi show that I couldn't remember (which you have stated is Roswell) and finally got to use it in BSG. I now can't find the quote and because you are deemed as all things knowledgable, you're making me feel stupid.

Take it back. :p

[pagad]

Don't feel too bad. I sometimes think that Joe is a science-fiction encyclopedia.

[ThPrime]

That's the last time I ever quote anything from Genesis! :lol:
You could move on to the next gospel, it's found in Battlestar too. :)

[The Dirt]

I'm reminded of something. In the Star Trek: Generations movie, what-his-face says that there's no use in hating the Borg (another robotic baddie race) because they are like a storm, and you can't hate a storm.

So, this brings me to BSG. The Cylons definitely behave more like individuals, but early on they used consensus to make decisions, and later majority, finally by killing each other. So, in the Miniseries they are like the Biblical Great Flood in a sense, forcing humanity to seek salvation on an Arc and wait it out.