TPBLAD and Time Travel - sensibly explaining Starbuck's mysterious Viper

[sWozzie]

It's 3am, I got work tomorrow but I just had to write this up!

Feel free to destroy all my hard work http://forums.scifi.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

http://battlestarrevealed.wordpress.com/

[jabedoben]

I've been thinking a lot about the possibilities of Time Travel in this show (probably from watching too much LOST).

Not sure if I'm sold on it, as it has never been brought up in the series so far. The "All of this has happened before, and will happen again" very well could refer to some kind of time loop.

Though I'm leaning towards it being about TOS being canon to this series, possibly occurring thousands and thousands of years before the re-imagined series we've been watching.

[genji2000]

...I'm leaning towards it being about TOS being canon to this series, possibly occurring thousands and thousands of years before the re-imagined series we've been watching.

This is floating around quite a bit (see Spencerian's crossing the streams thread), and is very interesting. Given what Leoben told Kara, that in previous cycles she might have played his part and he hers, that could mean that Starbuck was actually a man at some point. Sounds dumb, I know, but it could happen.

It's 3am, I got work tomorrow but I just had to write this up!

Feel free to destroy all my hard work http://forums.scifi.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

http://battlestarrevealed.wordpress.com/

Ditto on the 3am. I don't know why I can't sleep.

This one's interesting, more so than humans who get magically transformed into Cylons. I'm drawn to it because it has a fluidity that the didactic FFg/FF-whatever thing didn't have, and there's no real solid conclusion.

I think there are three points. The two you have - that Kara appeared to be with her mother when Socrata died, and that the Viper can pick up a beacon signal that the rest of the ship can't - and there's also the description of Earth that Kara gives Adama, the feel of it, the smell of it, etc., and most importantly that it was so familiar, that she felt like she'd been there before.

Regarding not-Leoben's part in this: it's similar to Head Six for Baltar. She is clearly nothing to do with Caprica Six, just as 'head' Leoben is not Leoben. Afterwards (on the Demetrius trip), Kara is still drawn to an actual Leoben because the 'head' Leoben is so much in her mind, as Baltar is drawn to, e.g., Gina Inviere because she is a Six.

The timelessness of the place between life and death may indicate that the past, present and future coexist there.

But how can objects (such as the Viper) be brought back from that place to the physical universe?

What you can do with Cylon resurrection (where the copy's consciousness exists fleetingly between life and death before being transferred to a new body) is so much harder to explain for a human (and I'm not entertaining thoughts of Kara being the Final Cylon here because for her to resurrect they would need a body to download her to, which would make her S7).

At the point of Kara's death (just before it in fact) she was in this TPBLAD with not-Leoben and her mother. Her mother spoke to her (did she hold her mother's hand?). She flicked through the scrapbook of mementoes, so she was physically there. So she goes to the flight academy and hotwires a shiny new Viper, then flies it from Caprica to Earth (with no FTL, incidentally, although if TPBLAD can bend time then it can also bend distance and direction, presumably). But Earth from when? Not from the time period that the colonial fleet found it because it's a nuclear wasteland. Kara visited Earth at some other time or in another cycle - we saw it, we saw clear skies and fecund landmasses and clean oceans.

I can buy all that, and I can buy the Viper being from a different time or different cycle, picking up a signal from a beacon that used to be there (or will be there in the future) but isn't there now.

What I don't understand is how she can get the Viper from TPBLAD to the here-and-now Galactica. Nor how she can physically reincarnate in the same state in terms of her knowledge, memories and familiarities as she was when she died, or reincarnate at all for that matter.

If that can be explained then I see why she can't remember any of it, as D'Anna's memories of the Final Five were sketchy and vague. I can see why Kara visited Earth (the human obsession) while D'Anna sought the Final Five (the Cylon obsession), and therefore why the Final Five are so inextricably linked to Earth and why human and Cylon must go there together.

So are we really talking about time travel, or time overlaps? That Viper and that Kara should not be in this time; they were both wiped out two months earlier. Is this apparently supernatural reappearance of the two a part of the cycle of time? If not, then how else were they supposed to find Earth and have they broken the cycle?

I think you need to make a flowchart to be honest.

[sWozzie]

I did actually toy with a time travel theory a while back, but binned it because it seemed ridiculous and I kind of went off time travel thinking that well, if time travel does exist in BSG then literally anything can happen. But in light of the connections in this article I may have to revisit it. Briefly it went something like this...

In a previous cycle pretty much the same things happen, create cylons, get chased to Earth but big battle and almost everyone dies! This is the hybrids "harbinger of death" prophecy since Kara led them all to Earth, to their deaths.

However Kara as well as Caprica.Six, Baltar, Hera and some element of the FF survive.

With little chance of the humans surviving into the future, they come up with a plan to go back in time and change events. It requires that the FF were 'locked' away in the Ionian Nebula, kind of like a trancendental prison, the Greek Tartarus - "there must be someway out of here" etc. When they got to the Ionian Nebula, it was Hera that somehow 'freed' these FF/LOK from the prison - a prison they were put in after they lost the war on Kobol, a war between the LOK. So Hera is important.

Now we know cylon technology can install memories (Boomer) and we know the LOK can time travel through TPBLAD. So the idea is that the FF take the consciousness of Caprica.Six and Baltar and transfer it back through time installing it into Baltar and Caprica.Six in the past during the nuclear explosion on Caprica. Maybe they could only do this once Caprica.Six and Baltar were dead, since then they would kind of be moving through TPBLAD, so this requires that Baltar died in the explosion on Caprica and was resurrected.

So anyway, once the future consciousness of Caprica.Six and Baltar are installed into the minds of Baltar and Caprica.Six respectively in the past, they get resurrected (Downloaded) with head characters - and this is what starts a new cycle.

The head characters mission is to change the timeline by influencing Caprica.Six and Baltar to protect Hera - since she is responsible for freeing the FF who send these head characters back in time - if she dies, then the time loop ends and mankind is destroyed forever. The head characters seem to know about the future because they have already lived through it, Caprica.Six know Hera will be born but gets the location wrong (in the cell/sickbay) because the head characters meddling makes subtle changes in the timeline so not everything is exactly the same as it was before. Once Caprica.Six is resurrected in Downloaded she seems to have a new purpose in life - live in peace with the humans (New Caprica) - in fact its Head.Baltar that gives her this purpose.

Oh and Kara reappearing at the Nebula is the future version of Kara with Viper sent back through the singularity at the centre of the Nebula, while the head characters go back through TPBLAD.

So in essence, the idea is that the head characters are being continually sent back through time to stop the destruction of mankind but they keep burgering it up and have to do it again, and again, and again....

Ah it still sounds ridiculous, but its a good example of just how crazy you can get with theories and still make them fit in with the show - to an extent

:lol:

[genji2000]

OK, I'm going to take this one apart if you don't mind, because at the end of the day it's all just speculation, so it's all open to question. The usual caveats about not aiming any of this at you personally but at your argument or theory still apply.

I did actually toy with a time travel theory a while back, but binned it because it seemed ridiculous and I kind of went off time travel thinking that well, if time travel does exist in BSG then literally anything can happen.

And I think that's the wisest position. Time Travel is bad for BSG. It would turn the show into something that it has completely avoided being thus far. It would make Season 4.5 RDM's Galactica 1980.

Then again, it's all happened before and will happen again... maybe that's what he's aiming for. :lol:

But in light of the connections in this article I may have to revisit it. Briefly it went something like this...

In a previous cycle pretty much the same things happen, create cylons, get chased to Earth but big battle and almost everyone dies! This is the hybrids "harbinger of death" prophecy since Kara led them all to Earth, to their deaths.

I know you're speaking retrospectively about your original time travel theory, but you know this is no longer possible, right? Kara was the Harbinger of Death for the Cylons, as we always suspected. She brought real death to the Cylons by (indirectly) destroying the Hub.

However Kara as well as Caprica.Six, Baltar, Hera and some element of the FF survive.

With little chance of the humans surviving into the future, they come up with a plan to go back in time and change events.

Why would Kara leave the fleet, and conspire with Baltar and Caprica Six in the abduction of her friends' child? Why would Baltar and Caprica Six have anything to do with one another? Why would Caprica Six kidnap Hera after helping Athena get the child out of Cylon hands?

It requires that the FF were 'locked' away in the Ionian Nebula, kind of like a trancendental prison, the Greek Tartarus - "there must be someway out of here" etc.

You're in lala land again now. The Watchtower Four are cylons and they have been from the start. They are cybernetic humanoids. They are not humans who are hosting the FF ghosts. They weren't lurking in the Ionian Nebula waiting for a chance to possess four upstanding members of the colonial community. You're thinking of General Zod.

When they got to the Ionian Nebula, it was Hera that somehow 'freed' these FF/LOK from the prison - a prison they were put in after they lost the war on Kobol, a war between the LOK.

Hera didn't activate the four hidden Cylons. The only song she knows is that Korean lullaby. She's never heard of All Along The Watchtower. It wasn't her.

So Hera is important.

This is where it starts going wrong. Hera is important, but she is important because she's the first human/Cylon child. Her mother was the first Cylon to get pregnant. That's tremendously important. What you've done is state a fact that we know about Hera to justify a piece of pure fantasy. Hera is not important because she let the Final Five out, but because of her heritage, because of her mixed race blood, and because of the visions she shares with her mother, Roslin and Caprica Six.

Now we know cylon technology can install memories (Boomer) and we know the LOK can time travel through TPBLAD.

We know Cylon technology can upload consciousnesses and then download them to new cybernetic bodies. As for the Lords of Kobol travelling through time - we know nothing of the sort. We don't even know if the Lords of Kobol ever existed as anything other than metaphors. This is where the FFg/FF-whatever argument alienates me. You have plucked out of thin air a random ability and assigned it to personae that we don't even know existed and told me that we know it's true. This either implies that I'm stupid because I don't know what you're talking about, or that you're stupid because you don't know what you're talking about. It's supposition and should be couched in a phrase like "imagine for a moment that..."

So the idea is that the FF take the consciousness of Caprica.Six and Baltar and transfer it back through time installing it into Baltar and Caprica.Six in the past during the nuclear explosion on Caprica. Maybe they could only do this once Caprica.Six and Baltar were dead, since then they would kind of be moving through TPBLAD, so this requires that Baltar died in the explosion on Caprica and was resurrected.

"Security!"

So anyway, once the future consciousness of Caprica.Six and Baltar are installed into the minds of Baltar and Caprica.Six respectively in the past, they get resurrected (Downloaded) with head characters - and this is what starts a new cycle.

The head characters mission is to change the timeline by influencing Caprica.Six and Baltar to protect Hera - since she is responsible for freeing the FF who send these head characters back in time - if she dies, then the time loop ends and mankind is destroyed forever.

Wasn't this one of the missions in GTA4?

The head characters seem to know about the future because they have already lived through it, Caprica.Six know Hera will be born but gets the location wrong (in the cell/sickbay)

Caprica Six never made any comment on where Hera would be born.

...because the head characters meddling makes subtle changes in the timeline so not everything is exactly the same as it was before. Once Caprica.Six is resurrected in Downloaded she seems to have a new purpose in life - live in peace with the humans (New Caprica) - in fact its Head.Baltar that gives her this purpose.

Head Baltar certainly influences her thinking when they're in the underground car park after the bomb goes off, but since the head characters might just as easily be PTSD elements of their 'host' characters own minds then Caprica Six actually worked this out for herself, which I think is a whole lot more plausible and satisfying because of all Significant Seven copies, she and Boomer are the two who have lived closely amongst humans and who would naturally feel sympathy and affection for them.

Oh and Kara reappearing at the Nebula is the future version of Kara with Viper sent back through the singularity at the centre of the Nebula, while the head characters go back through TPBLAD.

Thanks. This is what I asked for. As you say...

Ah it still sounds ridiculous,

...but I'd like to know how the singularity at the centre of the nebula can be used to convey things out of time into the present. And "it just does" doesn't count.

but its a good example of just how crazy you can get with theories and still make them fit in with the show - to an extent

Yes, and again - it's all conjecture at this stage, but the shiny new Viper has to be explained somehow and your new theory about Kara and the Viper shouldn't be discarded (dare I say?) like the FFg/FF-whatever one should be.

lol

So say we all.

[sWozzie]

:lol:

Its ridiculous, though I am sure I could fudge it if I had long enough, isn't that how it works - go right out there and then work your way back to reality :)

anyway I must reply to a couple of your comments.

1. Yeah I now about the 'harbinger of death'

2. The singularity at the centre of the Nebula is a massive white dwarf that bends spacetime and so theoretically can be used for time travel :)

3. and also...
Boomer: I'm okay. I'm okay, really.
Helo: Yeah. It's just, uh... it's just I don't want our baby born in this cell.
Baltar: Their child?

#6: I told you a child would arrive. Told you it would be born right here in this room. How could you ever doubt me?

so she isn't specifically talking about the cell, but the room next to the cell while the child ended up being born in sickbay

[sWozzie]

Anyway, going with the idea that Kara did travel back through time and looking at it from Socrata's point of view, Kara is visible (just like Shelley Godfrey), but Kara has a head character that Socrata can't see (Head.Leoben). Is this a simple explanation for all head character interaction in the show? Can it mean that Baltar died in the explosion on Caprica but the version we now see has time travelled to a point after the explosion. After all in Kobol Last Gleaming when Baltar and Head.Six are in the ruins of the Opera House...

Baltar: I know this place.
Head.Six: Of course you do. Go inside.


:lol:

[genji2000]

:lol:

Its ridiculous, though I am sure I could fudge it if I had long enough, isn't that how it works - go right out there and then work your way back to reality :)

anyway I must reply to a couple of your comments.

1. Yeah I now about the 'harbinger of death'

2. The singularity at the centre of the Nebula is a massive white dwarf that bends spacetime and so theoretically can be used for time travel :)

Thanks. I'm not up on my Stephen Hawking. So the next question is: was that pre-ordained (i.e. part of the cycle), or just serendipitous?

3. and also...
Boomer: I'm okay. I'm okay, really.
Helo: Yeah. It's just, uh... it's just I don't want our baby born in this cell.
Baltar: Their child?

#6: I told you a child would arrive. Told you it would be born right here in this room. How could you ever doubt me?

so she isn't specifically talking about the cell, but the room next to the cell while the child ended up being born in sickbay
Right - I think you're mixed up with characters. It's not Boomer who has that conversation with Helo, it's Athena, and it's not Caprica Six who says "our child will be born here" - that's Head Six. Head Six is definitely not Caprica Six imo, in any way, which is why I still lean towards the head characters being internal to their 'hosts', not an external influence.

Anyway, I just had a moment of revelation, going back to the interpretation of the Kara/Mother scene being real and not a vision, from Socrata's point of view she can see Kara and Kara can see Leoben but Socrata can't see Leoben.

Therefore this is exactly the same as all head character phenomenom.

Head.Leoben is the same as Head.Six and Head.Baltar - there is no difference when you look at it from Socrata's point of view.

So lets think about this - is Baltar somebody that has travelled through time

:lol:
Yes, I tend to agree that Leoben is a true head character (unlike, say, Elosha in The Hub or Lance in Sine Qua Non), but I don't really understand where the line is drawn between head characters and the likes of Carolanne Adama. That's why I veered away from calling him Head Leoben when I noted the similarities between Kara's not-Leoben and Baltar's not-Caprica Six. The question is, is the Baltar that Baltar talks to about Tory in the Galactica canteen simply Baltar's subconscious or is he Baltar's Head not-Baltar? I think the head characters might wind up being just a way for the Writers to have fun: "if the other characters think Baltar is talking to himself when he's talking to Head Six then let's actually have him talk to himself".

Why would Baltar have to have travelled through time in order to see Head Six? You mean has he been to TPBLAD.

No.

[sWozzie]

Why would Baltar have to have travelled through time in order to see Head Six? You mean has he been to TPBLAD.

No.
Yes, he has been to TPBLAD when he died on Caprica - Head.Six resurrects him by removing him from the past and making him appear after the explosion on Caprica - very similiar if not exactly the same as what happened to Starbuck

You already agree the time travel for Starbuck is feasable, its just a small step from that to apply it to Baltar

Its not even a small step! What Maelstrom.Leoben (who I am now calling Head.Leoben) did to Starbuck, Head.Six did to Baltar

RDM:“There are similarities, and there are connections, between Starbuck and Baltar that will develop as time goes on” (Source (http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Battlestar-Galactica-s-Fourth-Season-What-To-Expect-Updated-With-Pictures-9508.html))

[genji2000]

Yes, he has been to TPBLAD when he died on Caprica - Head.Six resurrects him by removing him from the past and making him appear after the explosion on Caprica - very similiar to what happened to Starbuck

You already agree the time travel for Starbuck is feasable, its just a small step from that to apply it to Baltar

RDM:“There are similarities, and there are connections, between Starbuck and Baltar that will develop as time goes on” (Source (http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Battlestar-Galactica-s-Fourth-Season-What-To-Expect-Updated-With-Pictures-9508.html))

Er, Baltar didn't die on Caprica. Caprica Six used her body to protect him when his windows blew in. The blast didn't even damage his window frames, just the glass (hence his cuts and abrasions, which he wouldn't have had if he had died and been resurrected/reincarnated).

[sWozzie]

Er, Baltar didn't die on Caprica. Caprica Six used her body to protect him when his windows blew in. The blast didn't even damage his window frames, just the glass (hence his cuts and abrasions, which he wouldn't have had if he had died and been resurrected/reincarnated).

no no no, we think thats what happened and you can debate it all day, we didn't see what happened, we didnt see six die but we know she did because she resurrected so its possible and thats all you need, the possibility, so its valid to assume for the sake of exploring a possibilty that he did die

[sWozzie]

actually I kind of take it back - he didn't so much die, but rather was saved from dying in the same way Head.Leoben saved Kara from dying by transporting him back in time (to the Opera House on Kobol 2000 years ago) before the explosion killed him

[genji2000]

actually I kind of take it back - he didn't so much die, but rather was saved from dying in the same way Head.Leoben saved Kara from dying by transporting him back in time (to the Opera House on Kobol 2000 years ago) before the explosion killed him

He didn't so much die as not die.

Anyway, whatever. Keep going wacky and then pull it back to something sensible.

But don't forget the flowchart.

[sWozzie]

He didn't so much die as not die.

Anyway, whatever. Keep going wacky and then pull it back to something sensible.

But don't forget the flowchart.

Its done, read the blog again, well just the last bit, its pretty compelling

Oh and its not an oldsch00l flowchart, its a class diagram ;)

[genji2000]

Its done, read the blog again, well just the last bit, its pretty compelling

Oh and its not an oldsch00l flowchart, its a class diagram ;)

That Opera House stuff sounds a bit bonkers to me, but there is a thread here were you might be able to use it: http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1407

Whatever type of diagram you want to use... I'm waiting to see it.

[sWozzie]

That Opera House stuff sounds a bit bonkers to me, but there is a thread here were you might be able to use it: http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1407

Whatever type of diagram you want to use... I'm waiting to see it.
yes Baltar going back in time is probably uneccessary, he only need be transported forward in time a few seconds to avoid death, there is a better explanation for how he recognizes the Opera House on Kobol

Ive updated the blog with an explanation of all 12 Lords of Kobol - its fits really nicely into the Head.Six theory and finally removes the need for "possession" as well as explaining the watchtower tune, mandala and why the cylons aren't allowed to think about the Final Five :)

[genji2000]

yes Baltar going back in time is probably uneccessary, he only need be transported forward in time a few seconds to avoid death, there is a better explanation for how he recognizes the Opera House on Kobol

Ive updated the blog with an explanation of all 12 Lords of Kobol - its fits really nicely into the Head.Six theory and finally removes the need for "possession" as well as explaining the watchtower tune, mandala and why the cylons aren't allowed to think about the Final Five :)

In Home Part 2 it is Caprica Sharon (Athena) who leads the colonials to the tomb of Athena, not Boomer.

The point about "the rocks below" is that Athena (the Lord of Kobol) committed suicide by dashing herself on them when the twelve tribes left Kobol. Kara flying into the hard floor doesn't equate to that for me, so I think you need to explain it in a bit more detail.

As for the hybrid's words, I think the forum over at scifi.com has unequivocally proved (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/sweetabbykitty/TighArt/TighArt84.jpg) that Tigh and Caprica Six are the "enemies brought about by impossible longing".

[sWozzie]

In Home Part 2 it is Caprica Sharon (Athena) who leads the colonials to the tomb of Athena, not Boomer.

yeah thanks, its was just copy+pasted out of the transcript - I suppose technically it was Sharon since she wasn't called Athena until S3

The point about "the rocks below" is that Athena (the Lord of Kobol) committed suicide by dashing herself on them when the twelve tribes left Kobol. Kara flying into the hard floor doesn't equate to that for me, so I think you need to explain it in a bit more detail.

its just something to think about - i dont pretend to have precise explanations for every last detail, its just an interesting similiarity and Im certainly not going to try to convince everyone! its just my interpretation, others have different interpretations

As for the hybrid's words, I think the forum over at scifi.com has unequivocally proved (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/sweetabbykitty/TighArt/TighArt84.jpg) that Tigh and Caprica Six are the "enemies brought about by impossible longing".
perhaps, again something to think about - you can even apply it to Baltar + Head.Roslin (In Collaborators) where she says "I have always wanted you"

multiple layers of meaning - see through the confusion

[genji2000]

yeah thanks, its was just copy+pasted out of the transcript - I suppose technically it was Sharon since she wasn't called Athena until S3


Is it from sadgeezer.com? That guy doesn't seem to understand copies. Always double-check your quotes.

I think you could get away with Athena, but yes, you're right, it's best to call her Caprica Sharon at that point.

[sWozzie]

Is it from sadgeezer.com? That guy doesn't seem to understand copies. Always double-check your quotes.

I think you could get away with Athena, but yes, you're right, it's best to call her Caprica Sharon at that point.

its from http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/

you right, I do need to check - all the dialogue is correct, well correct enough, but i need to go back and double check all the podcasts since the entire theory hinges on what they say