Season 1: Miniseries (Rewatch) [Archive]

timbo

July 2nd, 2008, 09:28 PM

Okay, anyone who is interested, the coordinated rewatch is officially under way. We were supposed to watch the mini last weekend, and post this week. Then, watch episodes 1 and 2 of series 1, this weekend, and post through the week. So c´mon dudes, this could be the Ark that helps us survive the flood (or in our case drought), and carries us through to the beginning of the last part of the final series. For anyone who is confused reading this, we had the idea to rewatch the whole series, two episodes a week, from beginning to revelations, and discuss them each week with the extra interest of knowing a lot of what is to come. Anyone who wishes to join in is welcome.

I did, in fact, watch the mini last weekend, and I think I will begin with a confession. I thought I saw a huge clue / piece of the puzzle right at the beginning, and I got myself so excited that I couldn´t concentrate much after that. I was pretty lucky really, because I was about to call a press conference to announce my astonishing observation, when another member sent me a PM and I thought I would run it by him first. Of course it was nothing. I nearly made a complete dick of myself. What I thought I saw was when Baltar is at the top of the steps of the raptor on New Caprica, after Helo has given up his place for him, he looks over the crowd of people about to be left behind, and the camera lingers on Head six for a moment, and then lingers on a man who I thought was Baltar´s dad. I thought the camera was lingering because the man was significant, but it was just the camera lingering on the spot where Head Six had been a moment before. I actually had my acceptance speech prepared for when they gave me the Pullitzer prize for "spotting stuff in BSG."

Right, on to the show. I really did get a bit carried away with my supposed spot, and consequently couldn´t concentrate too well. The main thing I wanted to say is that I realised again just how good it is. I remember now how I got started with BSG. We had just got the computer, and someone showed me how to "get" stuff. This was great, because here in Spain, the Tv is crap, and suddenly I could watch movies and shows in english. I think I have a pretty low threshold for rubbish, and nearly everything I was getting was crap. Then I saw a review in an english newspaper of an episode of BSG, and I thought OK I´ll try one episode - 33 - and see. I was hooked instantly, and went about getting the rest of the first three series and the mini. It really seemed way above anything else I had seen for ages.

I know, I haven´t said much about the mini-series. I´ll try now. The other big thing that struck me from the mini was the idea that the cylons are the children of humanity. Round about the time I watched it, there was a good thread about breaking the cycle of destructive behaviour patterns that is often passed from parent to child, and how that cycle can be broken if someone says "enough" and asks for help. We were really talking about individuals, but it struck me that it is perhaps the same with the cylons. If they are the humanity´s offspring, they are probably going inherit humanity´s self destructive traits. They are not some evil aliens from another galaxy, they are basically us.

Okay, there it is. Not very coherent, but it is a start.

I really think that with a coordinated effort, we can crack the code and find the treasure. BUT, we have to bring together our individual intellects, and in a synchronised manner, using the forum as a sort of prism, create a single "superbeam" of pure intelligence and focus it on the puzzle before us. Good hunting.

Batman316

July 2nd, 2008, 10:10 PM

Watched the mini a few days ago, 33 and Water last night. Since this topic is about the mini I’ll try and keep my attention focused on that..... HOWEVER... there are certain scenes in the first two episodes of season 1 that I will draw attention too.
The first thing that struck me is the obvious ‘About time you showed up’ or whatever it is that Six says on Capria. There are hundreds of reasons this line could be ‘forgotten about’ but don’t be surprised if we see an alternate angle on that one during the final 10 eps.
Next was Adama’s speech.... the irony seems a little too ‘easy’ though again something that could be ‘forgotten about’ for the larger picture.
Larger picture... now there’s a phrase that has new meaning to me now...
If Baltar isn’t a clone/cylon then I hope everyone is ready for Count Ibis and the ‘ship of lights’

Head 6 IS an angel, sent by the lord. She says this, she refers ‘The Cylons’ a lot yet never once says We/Us as you would expect. It’s like she is refering to them as a different ‘race’ When talking about Australians I always say ‘Us/We’. Head 6 doesn’t, and she knows things that remain unspoken, sets Baltar with certain ‘tests’ (33 is the best example)
Baltar has been selected by the ‘gods’ as a test of humanity. It’s an age old story device. The future of humanity rests on the decisions of a single man. This is no epic battle for humanityl, it is all a test for Humanity’s right to survive. The man being ‘tested’ is the ‘weakest’ of the cast, a man who’s sexual desires over-ride all else. A selfish man who does nothing but ‘attempt to cover his own ***’

But his man (Baltar) has been chosen by the Gods, he is being watched and assessed by the ‘powers that be’

Why MUST he be a clone/cylon or ‘The chosen one’? Simple enough... he dies. Right there on Caprica, in the arms of his beloved ‘Six’ yet there he is moments later running towards Helo and Sharon’s raptor. Different clothes, briefcase in hand (where did the briefcase/clothes come from) It’s the only way to explain this ‘Starbuck-ish’ reappearance. (loads of spoilers so I won't 'expand' on that statement

Obviously there is lots of other stuff in the mini that is ‘exciting’ given the context that we are now rewatching it but one thing sent a shiver up my spine.... the final words spoken to Boomer on the outpost....

“By your command”

***********************

On 33---- Roslyn doesn't command the olympic carrier to be destroyed!! Watch her face, listen to the snarl in her voice. For just that split second (right as Baltar repents) it seems like something takes control of her.. 'DO IT'.... not a remorseful 'do it' . There is a violence in her tone that seems unnatural....

The whole olympic carrier stuff reeks of 'Count Ibis' from TOS. I am going to keep an eye out for similar scenes but I think I REALLY did see it.

Ibis 'claimed' to be God, had the powers of god... even turned into a devil for a split second. Then we found out 'what' he was..... (and yes there were angels) The Ibis reasoning also explains 'The Prestine Viper' that you know who returns with and the mysterious Colonial signal.... anyway that's all a LOT later. The Ibis character also explains Head 6 and all the other 'rather helpful in directing things' Head people.

I know I am drawing a straight line to Ibis but unless there is another explination then there 'has' to be a 'god figure' orchastrating things

jabedoben

July 2nd, 2008, 10:34 PM

Something that has bothered me from the beginning....

How does Baltar survive the nuclear bombings on Caprica? CapricaSix clearly states later on that she revisits the ruins of his house. You mean to tell me that she shielded him from a nuclear blast and that he shows up unscathed later on at Boomer and Helo's raptor ready to be saved?

Strange things are afoot at the Circle K here my friends.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.

July 2nd, 2008, 11:56 PM

I wouldn't read too much into Baltar surviving. He was properly shielded by Six, and the shockwave wasn't irradiated, the worse thing that happens to Baltar is that he was cut.

Batman316

July 3rd, 2008, 12:12 AM

I wouldn't read too much into Baltar surviving. He was properly shielded by Six, and the shockwave wasn't irradiated, the worse thing that happens to Baltar is that he was cut.

Are you serious?

A plot oversight? an editing error?

You DO know that we first see Head Six as Baltar (new clothes, briefcase... hell he's a changed man) boards the raptor. A major side plot begins (Head People) and we're not meant to look into the details leading up to it?

Shielded by Six? Even though Six explains what happens when her body is 'Destroyed'.....Little hard to protect him if she's been blown to pieces.

imo it is a pivitol scene that has taken 4 years for us to go back and have a look at.... and we scratch our heads.... What the Frack is going on?

Pretty much like when Starbuck returns after likewise being blasted to little pieces.

Of course we can't just ignore it. Unlike other 'throw away' scenes there is no disputing what 'WE' see. It's not like RDM can use wordplay to change our perception.

The house is destroyed (big time, and on camera), Six is destoryed (and off to the basestar she goes) and what Baltar somehow manages to survive and walks away with nothing more than a scratch?

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 02:18 AM

It’s the only way to explain this ‘Starbuck-ish’ reappearance. (loads of spoilers so I won't 'expand' on that statement

I don't think we need to worry about spoilers, at least as far as the end of Revelations. Part of the point of the rewatch is, to my mind, being able to discuss future events inasmuch as they interplay with the episodes currently being watched/discussed.

Are you serious?

A plot oversight? an editing error?

You DO know that we first see Head Six as Baltar (new clothes, briefcase... hell he's a changed man) boards the raptor. A major side plot begins (Head People) and we're not meant to look into the details leading up to it?

Shielded by Six? Even though Six explains what happens when her body is 'Destroyed'.....Little hard to protect him if she's been blown to pieces.

imo it is a pivitol scene that has taken 4 years for us to go back and have a look at.... and we scratch our heads.... What the Frack is going on?

...

The house is destroyed (big time, and on camera), Six is destoryed (and off to the basestar she goes) and what Baltar somehow manages to survive and walks away with nothing more than a scratch?

Baltar definitely survived the blast that wrecked his house, in my opinion. This was point of Caprica Six's "get down" line and the pose they struck - she was erect and proud (did she look into the camera at that point?) and he was cowering at her feet. She saved him. He then grabbed a change of clothes (he was in his pyjamas during her exposition wasn't he?) and a briefcase full of important documents (possibly incriminating evidence he didn't to leave lying around), and followed the crowds out of Caprica City.

And don't forget, she was wearing her armour-plated blast-proof Cylon outfit:

http://www.battlestarforum.com/picture.php?groupid=7&pictureid=91

However, they did say the end of the show will make us re-evaluate the beginning so I suppose anything's open to conjecture at this point. If Baltar did die though then I think it's a retcon because we were clearly supposed to believe that she'd protected him from the blast.

Batman316

July 3rd, 2008, 03:11 AM

And don't forget, she was wearing her armour-plated blast-proof Cylon outfit:

lol I forgot about that hehe. But if the house is destroyed where do the clothes come from?

Doesn't 6 wake up in a later episode with a flashback of the blast?Caprica 6 as she is now known (not sure which episode it is)

So 6 doesn't survive the blast and if she doesn't survive then she can't protect Baltar, super cylon outfit on or not. ;)

Obviously with so many episodes I could have confuse them.... hell maybe it was all my imagination after all but after rewatching the mini something is telling me that the scene is too important.

Sure it was easy enough to gloss over before but now that we know what Starbuck is then suddenly this scene could possibly make sense and be one of those 'clues' that RDM is so fond of doing. I certainly can't buy the 'mistake' thing.... it's way too big of an oversight to have been missed.

imo it was intentional. We were meant to assume that 6 rescued Baltar.... but then we are meant to assume a lot of things....

anyway anyone got any thoughts on the 'By your command' line? I could buy this line as a homage to TOS and meaning nothing in the over all picture but..... Is there something special about 'that' Sharon? Is she the REAL leader?...Why was she colonial uniform?

Watching the mini has opened up WAYYYYY more questions... I don't think I want to play anymore.....

*goes to lay down

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 04:57 AM

anyway anyone got any thoughts on the 'By your command' line? I could buy this line as a homage to TOS and meaning nothing in the over all picture but..... Is there something special about 'that' Sharon? Is she the REAL leader?...Why was she colonial uniform?

Watching the mini has opened up WAYYYYY more questions... I don't think I want to play anymore.....

*goes to lay down

I think the Eight at the end of the Miniseries is Caprica Sharon (Athena), hence the colonial uniform.

I don't think the Cylons had leaders until Natalie and D'Anna stepped up to the plate. They rule by consensus.

I can't think of any deeper significance for "by your command" than a wink at TOS. I think it is repeated elsewhere in the series - ah yes, the Wiki says it's in Colonial Day (the Wiki says this Miniseries "by your command" is spoken by a Six to Sharon Valerii, but it's clearly not Sharon Valerii because she - Boomer - is with the colonial fleet on their way to 33). It also suggests that the use of "by your command" by the Cylons is similar to the colonials' "so say we all", and doesn't infer any particular chain of command or hierarchy.

Batman316

July 3rd, 2008, 05:09 AM

Sharon Valerii because she - Boomer - is with the colonial fleet on their way to 33).
and yet the 8 had a colonial uniform and I must admid looked a little bit like Boomer <.< >.>...

Could 'she' (Boomer) have subconsciously 'projected' herself? You know... that cylon thing they do. It would explain how she could be in two places at once. It makes her a possible FF/God /Leader type... I know it doesn't make sense.

Not yet atleast....

Boomer is the 8 that is with Cavil and the Nasty Cylon Crew atm isn't she? (God I'm a long way from S04e10 lol)
If it is her then, 'she' can't be the Imperious Leader since Cavil seems to outrank her.... Or did Boomer die in the Civil War?

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 05:19 AM

and yet the 8 had a colonial uniform and I must admid looked a little bit like Boomer <.< >.>...

Could 'she' (Boomer) have subconsciously 'projected' herself? You know... that cylon thing they do. It would explain how she could be in two places at once. It makes her a possible FF/God /Leader type... I know it doesn't make sense.

Not yet atleast....

Boomer is the 8 that is with Cavil and the Nasty Cylon Crew atm isn't she? (God I'm a long way from S04e10 lol)
If it is her then, 'she' can't be the Imperious Leader since Cavil seems to outrank her.... Or did Boomer die in the Civil War?

Yeah I can't deny she was a dead spit for Boomer. But Caprica Sharon also had a colonial uniform and wasn't away with the colonial fleet.

Projection is about imagining yourself in more agreeable surroundings, not about appearing to other people in other places.

Yes, Boomer is with Cavil in the Cylon fleet. Your 'About Me' info says you're up-to-date. Where are you up to?

Batman316

July 3rd, 2008, 06:00 AM

Projection is about imagining yourself in more agreeable surroundings, not about appearing to other people in other places.I actually thought it was one of RDM's attempt at 'hinting' about Head People. Sure they can imagine themselves in better surroundings but at the time it was implied that there was more about projection than was mentioned.

Assuming that cylons can appear in eachothers heads isn't really that far fetched. Just a few binary codes on some radio signal...

0011010010010000111 <--- looks it's Boomer lol.

As I said the idea didn't make much sense, it still doesn't

Caprica Sharon was in uniform for a reason, it would be pretty hard to convince Helo that she was a good guy if she wasn't in uniform. But the 8 at the end of the mini had no reason at all to be in uniform.

The projection idea came about as a way of explaining how Boomer can be in two places at once. I'll have to take notes when 6 explains how it works to Baltar.

I love the Starbuck idea, and atm it's still only a rumour but.... if the rumours are true then they did say the end of the show will make us re-evaluate the beginning I'm not a great fan of spoilers but speculation is what all good Sci fi is about.

And I am all the way up to date ;) my comment was about the distance between Water and Revelations.... 60 plus episodes lol

bazzyb

July 3rd, 2008, 07:20 AM

To use the well-worn cliche. I recall feeling 'blown away' by the mini-series. When the credits rolled I just sat back and said "Wow". I've only watched it beginning to end once since and I thought that perhaps in light of what came in S1 I might be disappointed when I re-watched it last week. But it was as good as I remember. Quite often when re-watching the beginning of even very good shows sometimes the actors seem not quite settled in their roles, the characters seem to lack some depth and the direction and pacing of the show is a little creaky. I think it's a credit to all those involved in BSG just how quickly they set a high standard and consistently stuck to it throughout S1

Like others I think Baltar surviving the blast on Caprica most likely has the mundane explanation of being shielded by Caprica Six. The 'All this has happened before......' has of course, already been shown to be true by ep4.10 at least in the fact that Earth was nuked like the 12 Colonies were. Like others I am confident that there will be plenty more revelations of such 'parallels', 're-occurences' or whatever one wishes to call them. There has been so much speculation and there will surely be plenty more by next January. With so many theories around, someone's got to have it at least partly right. I'm thinking of that other cliche of 'a thousand monkeys typing at athousand typewriters for a thousand years'. I don't mean any offence about the use of the word 'monkey'. I'm in no way attempting to insult anyone (I'm just in a kind of cliche frame of mind today)

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 08:13 AM

Caprica Sharon was in uniform for a reason, it would be pretty hard to convince Helo that she was a good guy if she wasn't in uniform. But the 8 at the end of the mini had no reason at all to be in uniform.

Unless she is Caprica Sharon.

bazzyb

July 3rd, 2008, 10:34 AM

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 10:56 AM

One thing I didn't like about the mini-series when I first watched it back in 2003 was the 'Six' kissing the officer on the space station in the opening scene. I didn't see the point other than being a form of titillation to hook viewers. I thought it cheapened the show as I believed the show was good as not to need that kind of hook. However since then and having watched the four seasons I've a lot more appreciation for that scene and the subsequent Baltar/Six sex scenes. I'm thinking that I was mistaken in my initial impression that those scenes were purely for titillation. Or am I fooling myself?

However I still think the scene in the corridor where Dualla kissed Billy seems contrived. Even on my rewatch I found that it took me out of the story and didn't quite work for me. One of those moments when I'm completely absorbed in the world of BSG and then a moment later I'm pulled out of it

I think you're spot on about Armistice Six. She is fascinated with human life and the love of god, and the kiss symbolises so many things - betrayal, passion, domination, etc.

The Baltar/Six sex scenes stressed how passionate the Six model is.

It's a nice spot to balance Armistice Six with the Dualla/Billy kiss, which is all about innocence, relief, joy etc. but I agree it was a bit forced on the Writers' part.

JohnMatZ

July 3rd, 2008, 03:14 PM

I wouldn't read too much into Baltar surviving. He was properly shielded by Six, and the shockwave wasn't irradiated, the worse thing that happens to Baltar is that he was cut.

Shortly after Baltar's DEATH, Adama on Galactica announces a 50 MEGATON nuclear device. I think the recurring intro is key. The blast wave from a 50 megaton bomb on earth blew down houses 35 km away in the 60's. It broke glass 300 km away. From his blinding until impact was 26 seconds. I don't know how fast that wave was going but I will eventually find that out. I do believe that the Baltar on Galactic is different.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.

July 3rd, 2008, 03:40 PM

Shortly after Baltar's DEATH, Adama on Galactica announces a 50 MEGATON nuclear device. I think the recurring intro is key. The blast wave from a 50 megaton bomb on earth blew down houses 35 km away in the 60's. It broke glass 300 km away. From his blinding until impact was 26 seconds. I don't know how fast that wave was going but I will eventually find that out. I do believe that the Baltar on Galactic is different.

You're assuming, of course, that Baltar lived in Caprica City. He may have lived further than that.

Also, you're not factoring in the whole dramatic effect. The show's been known to over-play things before, such as Racetrack's crash in "Escape Velocity", the whole "Baltar puppet" scene, etc.

JohnMatZ

July 3rd, 2008, 04:02 PM

First we don't see modes of Transportation. We don't see how they get from one place to the other. You are right there. We don't know if that lake is in downtown Caprica city in some sort of enclave.

I still think this explosion is key. If Six hadn't died (she isn't supergirl), I would think this is the orginal Baltar. She may be stronger but Leoben was beaten to death with a flashlight.

I just don't think RDM is overplaying the fact that we are to perceive Baltar as a savior. He looks like what pop culture things Jesus looked like. I am not getting religious but we are to see Baltar as Galactica's Jesus.

I think that when this is wrapped up we will find out that a original of Baltar is the Creator of
the Cylon/Human

I think Baltar has an overriding need to survive and we are watching a duplicate of him. He has absolutely NO effects from that blast.

Baltar will be the key to how this Series ends.

When we get to Epiphany I have some observations about Six and Baltar being seen by Roslin. Until then

bazzyb

July 3rd, 2008, 07:09 PM

Shortly after Baltar's DEATH, Adama on Galactica announces a 50 MEGATON nuclear device. I think the recurring intro is key. The blast wave from a 50 megaton bomb on earth blew down houses 35 km away in the 60's. It broke glass 300 km away. From his blinding until impact was 26 seconds. I don't know how fast that wave was going but I will eventually find that out. I do believe that the Baltar on Galactic is different.

Well maybe nobody told RDM that beforehand :). But seriously, RDM has admitted to using 'dramatic license' in the past such as when Athena and Six retrieved Hera from the basestar. He said in the podcast that he simply ignored the issue of how they managed to get off the basestar.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.

July 3rd, 2008, 07:28 PM

You'll never find out the speed of that shockwave since you'd need to know the distance between the impact point and Baltar's house, which is information that no one has.

Also, keep in mind that shockwaves can be affected by atmospheric disturbances, and a whole bunch of other variables that, frankly, make investigating the shockwave dubious at best. Secondly, there was more than one nuclear strike on Caprica, there were several.

I sincerely doubt that they spent a lot of time on that plot point. RDM's been making things up as he goes along; there is no "master plan". He is not J. Michael Straczynski, or J.R.R. Tolkien, or Arthur C. Clarke for that matter.

So major scientific extrapolation or number crunching isn't going to solve this issue, since we're not dealing with a logical mind here. :D

smelly_feet

July 3rd, 2008, 07:51 PM

Well from what I could tell so far, every character has at least some similar traits as their counterpart in the original series. The original baltar was a cylon leader until the end where we see that he was not the ultimate leader of the cylons. I think Baltar is more connected to the cylons than we realize. We are assuming that the Baltar on Caprica survived the attack. Did they show him get up and walk away after the blast? One thing I hope is that writers don't give the cylons the same origins as in the original series. If they recycle the end game of original series into this one, then I think that will make it as lame as the Sopranos finale.

just my two cents

Metis

July 3rd, 2008, 09:24 PM

Hello. This is my first post here. I was planning on watching it all over again from the beginning, myself, so I am really happy to find a group of people doing the same thing, and up for discussion. Hope it's okay if I join. :)

I am behind the times, but just a little. I have to go back now and rewatch the miniseries, and 33 and Water, this weekend. Just one comment in the meantime.

She may be stronger but Leoben was beaten to death with a flashlight.

Leoben, at the time, had been severely weakened by the radiation surrounding Ragnar, probably the only reason Adama was able to fend him off.

Which reminds me of another thing I never understood at the time, Adama's recognition of Leoben as a skin-job. But that was before Razor. And however did young Bill project like that, on the ice planet? Which has since made me wonder exactly how much the military knew, looking back at Hero. (All of which will make me feel even sorrier for that poor officer on the Armistice Station.)

I can never think of Armistice Six without hearing her ask: "Are you alive?" :)

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 10:50 PM

But if the house is destroyed where do the clothes come from?

The house is not flattened. The windows are blown in but the house itself is structurally intact. In the final frames of the blast, as the dust cloud tears into the house, even the window frames are still intact. I'm sure Baltar's walk-in closet remained serviceable, and most of his clothes would have been protected in dust bags, considering how fastidious he is.

Doesn't 6 wake up in a later episode with a flashback of the blast?Caprica 6 as she is now known (not sure which episode it is)

So 6 doesn't survive the blast and if she doesn't survive then she can't protect Baltar, super cylon outfit on or not. ;)

Yes she awakes following flashbacks of her time on Caprica, culminating in her death scene, but there's no new information in that sequence from Downloaded; it's simply a replay of scenes from the Miniseries. She didn't survive specifically because she used her body to protect Gaius' frail, non-resurrecting body. If she'd laid down flat then she might have survived, but would have risked Gaius' life. She used her expendable body to shield Gaius from the blast.

Obviously with so many episodes I could have confuse them.... hell maybe it was all my imagination after all but after rewatching the mini something is telling me that the scene is too important.

It is of great importance, which is why it kept being replayed in the title sequence of the series proper. It showed many things: that Gaius survived, that Caprica Six loved him and protected him (which is what he carries into Head Six thereafter), and that Cylons have scant regard for their physical frames because they can resurrect.

Sure it was easy enough to gloss over before but now that we know what Starbuck is then suddenly this scene could possibly make sense and be one of those 'clues' that RDM is so fond of doing. I certainly can't buy the 'mistake' thing.... it's way too big of an oversight to have been missed.

What 'mistake' thing do you mean? I think you were the only poster who indicated there was some kind of mistake or plot hole involved. I thought the sequence was exquisitely executed and did precisely what it was intended to do. That fact that Baltar appears later during the Boomer/Helo scene with cuts and abrasions proves quite clearly that he survived the blast. If he had resurrected or reincarnated he would have a fresh unscarred body and face.

imo it was intentional. We were meant to assume that 6 rescued Baltar.... but then we are meant to assume a lot of things....

After reviewing the blast sequence there's no doubt that Baltar simply survived, as he always manages to.

Hello. This is my first post here. I was planning on watching it all over again from the beginning, myself, so I am really happy to find a group of people doing the same thing, and up for discussion. Hope it's okay if I join. :)

Hi. Welcome to the forum. What took you so long to make your first post?

I am behind the times, but just a little. I have to go back now and rewatch the miniseries, and 33 and Water, this weekend. Just one comment in the meantime...

Leoben, at the time, had been severely weakened by the radiation surrounding Ragnar, probably the only reason Adama was able to fend him off.

Which reminds me of another thing I never understood at the time, Adama's recognition of Leoben as a skin-job. But that was before Razor. And however did young Bill project like that, on the ice planet? Which has since made me wonder exactly how much the military knew, looking back at Hero. (All of which will make me feel even sorrier for that poor officer on the Armistice Station.)

I can never think of Armistice Six without hearing her ask: "Are you alive?" :)

I'd like to know what Leoben was doing at the Ragnar Anchorage. Was his explanation (being an illegal arms dealer) actually his cover in human society, which would mean he'd've been to Ragnar many times before? Or was he sent to cover the anchorage in case any colonials showed up, and he just got caught out, in which case why didn't the Cylons send a bigger contingent than just one man?

Did this Leoben resurrect? Didn't the radiological field of Ragnar prevent him downloading to any Resurrection Ship that may have been present? Likewise with the Leoben that Roslin flushed out of the airlock in Flesh and Bone; did he download or resurrect? I never got the impression that any subsequent Leoben was not aware of the experiences we saw these two Leobens endure, although I don't recall them actually referencing these memories.

Batman316

July 4th, 2008, 02:33 AM

What 'mistake' thing do you mean? I think you were the only poster who indicated there was some kind of mistake or plot hole involved.

That was just a response to the 'Don't looks too much into it' comment. And yes the scene was brilliantly done but remember why this thread is here. RDM hid clues about the Final 1, that's what we are looking for.

Obviously there is a variety of opinions out there about Baltar surviving (glad I'm not the only one) ----- So it's definately possible that it could be a clue. Of course it might not be but then it if was obvious what would be the point?

Soooo what have we got so far?

* Who is Six talking to on Caprica 'About time you got here' (or whatever she says

* Baltar's survival

* Adama snr recognising (for whatever reason) the truth about Leoben

* Leoben on Ragnar station in the first place

* The 8 who gets the 'By your command' comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gd5_8K7ES8&feature=related

hmm.... interesting..... though clearly no smoking gun and could simply be coincidence... besides 'technically' that's a topic for the next episode but I'll throw this out there now. Why is Baltar shown when all the rest are cylons? It's reaching I know but still we're looking at everything arn't we?

So what's missing from the list that could be a potential hint?

genji2000

July 4th, 2008, 03:02 AM

That was just a response to the 'Don't looks too much into it' comment. And yes the scene was brilliantly done but remember why this thread is here. RDM hid clues about the Final 1, that's what we are looking for.

Oh yeah, quite right - I'm not questioning the validity of asking the question, but it's definitely reaching to conclude that Baltar died.

Obviously there is a variety of opinions out there about Baltar surviving (glad I'm not the only one) ----- So it's definately possible that it could be a clue. Of course it might not be but then it if was obvious what would be the point?

Definitely possible, but as I said, I think it would be a retcon.

Soooo what have we got so far?

* Who is Six talking to on Caprica 'About time you got here' (or whatever she says

My money's on Simon or Adar. Possibly Helo, but I think that's way out there.

* Baltar's survival

Yep.

* Adama snr recognising (for whatever reason) the truth about Leoben

As you said, he could have put two and two together given the events in Razor, but it was a bit of a leap. He'd probably also know about the Cylons' monotheism if reports on Caprica are anything to go by, and Leoben kept saying 'god' not 'gods'.

* Leoben on Ragnar station in the first place
This was probably just drama in action.

* The 8 who gets the 'By your command' comment

My money's definitely on Caprica Sharon.

hmm.... interesting..... though clearly no smoking gun and could simply be coincidence... besides 'technically' that's a topic for the next episode but I'll throw this out there now. Why is Baltar shown when all the rest are cylons? It's reaching I know but still we're looking at everything arn't we?

It's more about showing Caprica Six's/the Cylons' passion than showing Baltar. The overlays are all about the Cylons, and Helfer's bit of business with Callis was the most emphatic illustration of "they feel like us".

So what's missing from the list that could be a potential hint?

I do think the Miniseries might well come up short on this front. It had to standalone and I don't feel that lends itself much to clues and hints about the future.

Metis

July 4th, 2008, 09:19 AM

* Who is Six talking to on Caprica 'About time you got here' (or whatever she says

* Baltar's survival

* Adama snr recognising (for whatever reason) the truth about Leoben

* Leoben on Ragnar station in the first place

* The 8 who gets the 'By your command' comment
I'm not sure there are clues to the identity of the last of the Final Five here, but they are interesting questions.

Caprica talking to someone else, I think was just meant to tell us there were other Cylon skin-jobs on the planet. It could be any of the Seven. Maybe a Cavil; there was a Cavil in the Fleet. Or a Doral. Even with one visible on Galactica, the Dorals are just so unremarkable.

Baltar's survival. I firmly believe Baltar survived the blast, and agree that Caprica died to save him. He had to be saved. A huge chunk of the show has been all about the redemption of Baltar. Despite the Hybrid's prophecy ("claw toward the light . . . struggling for redemption . . . howl of terrible suffering"), it just seems too obvious for him to be the last Cylon. I could see him as a clone, though, ala Cyteen, given all Head-Six's manipulation. (Yes, the Head characters manipulate everyone who sees them, but a tad more gently than Head-Six's tactics on Baltar, smashing his face into a mirror, kicking the chair out from under him when he wasn't ready to hang himself. :) )

Leoben on Ragnar. It would make sense for the Cylon to send someone to keep an eye on Ragnar. They would have known about it, with Caprica fine-combing through the Defense dbases. And given the radiation, it would also make sense not to send multiple skin-jobs on what could be considered a suicide mission. It would not have made sense to send anyone if they couldn't communicate, though. What was Leoben supposed to do? Stop them himself? Maybe his mission was just to kill Adama, if he showed. It is probably much simpler, and the only reason he was there was for the sake of the story, to introduce the concept of skin-jobs to the Colonial Fleet.

Did this Leoben resurrect? Didn't the radiological field of Ragnar prevent him downloading to any Resurrection Ship that may have been present? Likewise with the Leoben that Roslin flushed out of the airlock in Flesh and Bone; did he download or resurrect? I never got the impression that any subsequent Leoben was not aware of the experiences we saw these two Leobens endure, although I don't recall them actually referencing these memories.

I'm not sure if the Leoben on Ragnar downloaded. But the Leoben from Flesh and Bone must have. There is that scene where Laura talks to Caprica in the brig, asking for her help, and Caprica asks for some sort of guarantee. Laura promises not to airlock her, and Caprica responds by asking if this is the same as the promise she gave Leoben. She says, "He told us." Then again, this is a deleted scene. Maybe that is why it was deleted. It was such a great scene. (And thank you for the welcome, genji2000. :) )

Adama identifying Leoben as a skin-job. Razor does explain this. Adama knew that the Cylons were using parts to create new beings. He saw it (although I think the reason he was able to see it is the better question).

BYC. I just took that as a nod to TOS, like the earlier nod to Firefly. No real significance. I would go with simpler for the opening credits, also. The credits needed to explain some of the story to help hook new viewers. Six and Baltar have a history, there are many copies, some might be in the Fleet, some might not know it, etc.

These were such early days.

pagad

July 5th, 2008, 06:07 AM

I am afraid, in unrelated news, I will not be able to join the re-watch for quite a while as my friend is still watching my S1 DVDs.

See you S2.

genji2000

July 5th, 2008, 07:49 AM

I am afraid, in unrelated news, I will not be able to join the re-watch for quite a while as my friend is still watching my S1 DVDs.

See you S2.

Don't you have internet access?

Wouter

July 5th, 2008, 12:48 PM

I think that Baltar surviving was explained by RDM or someone else on the show: apparently the VFX team went a bit overboard with the whole shockwave and it was never meant to look that fatal - much like Racetrack's Raptor crash in S4 (or are her and her copilot also Cylons? Who isn't, by this point?).

About possible hints for the final Cylon: the majority of hints, may not have been made prior to S4 or at least the mid point of S3. Before that, the final Cylon wasn't even set in stone yet as I understand it, allthough apparent clues may have been left for a number of characters to keep their options open.

When RDM says there are hints, I suspect he means those hints are mostly in S4 itself.

genji2000

July 5th, 2008, 01:02 PM

I think that Baltar surviving was explained by RDM or someone else on the show: apparently the VFX team went a bit overboard with the whole shockwave and it was never meant to look that fatal - much like Racetrack's Raptor crash in S4 (or are her and her copilot also Cylons? Who isn't, by this point?).

Whew. Thanks for putting that one to rest. If you can keep your head when all about you are concentrating on the damned footage...

About possible hints for the final Cylon: the majority of hints, may not have been made prior to S4 or at least the mid point of S3. Before that, the final Cylon wasn't even set in stone yet as I understand it, allthough apparent clues may have been left for a number of characters to keep their options open.

When RDM says there are hints, I suspect he means those hints are mostly in S4 itself.

I'd edit this last bit out if I were you, lest it spoil our whole rewatch obsession. :)

timbo

July 5th, 2008, 03:59 PM

Hey guys, just got back from a week in the country with my father in law. I always look forward to the idyllic peaceful setting and chance to unwind, and we always come back three days early because of the mosquitoes, heat, fleas in the beds and the grumpy old man.
It is great to see so much interest in the rewatch - this weekend is it the first two episodes?

I read through the posts and have a couple of comments. The outpost meeting between the envoy and the Six never really registered with me, but reading the posts made me think about it, and I realised that the envoy was probably the first human that Six had seen. I think the kiss was important because it introduced us to the way the sixes think about life, sex, etc.

The other thing was the other person in the "wondered when you´d arrive" comment. I think it will turn out to be important - maybe a human who was involved in the attack.

TAZ-99

July 11th, 2008, 05:27 AM

Greetings my fellow Galactic-fans!!:thumbsup:

I have been a member for a while but have unfortunately been remiss in my time spent here.

I spend most of my BSG time over on The Zone battlestarzone.com but I am such a huge fan of the BSG Wiki site that I refer to it as The Bible and frequent it often.

Today I noticed the announcement about your series rewatch efforts, something that several people across several forums are also doing, myself included.

In fact I have written up very detailed Monologues for each episode - thru Water so far - with Bastille Day, Act of Contrition and You can't go home again, coming up soon.

As these are already posted on the Zone I hope you dont mind if I just post the links here??

Miniseries (http://www.battlestarzone.com/showthread.php?t=1558)

I will post the others on the appropriate threads.

These will also be added to my non-bsg blogs entertainment section.

Nina's Known Universe (http://www.ninasknownuniverse.blogspot.com)

This blog has and will have more of a wide variety of articles detailed in my welcome message.

Thank you and I look forward to reading more of your theories as well.

:D

smelly_feet

July 11th, 2008, 09:48 PM

genji2000

July 12th, 2008, 01:55 AM

However, they did say the end of the show will make us re-evaluate the beginning so I suppose anything's open to conjecture at this point. If Baltar did die though then I think it's a retcon because we were clearly supposed to believe that she'd protected him from the blast.

When they said re-evaluate the beginning, did they mean the miniseries or the entire season 1?

I took it to mean into Season One, maybe even Season Two. Of course, this technique of retconning may have been used by RDM as a deliberate means of re-presenting the events of the Miniseries and Season One to create an iterative cycle, generate favourable criticism and boost DVD sales... if I were being unkind and cynical.

As I understand it, retconning is generally employed in order to take a character or plot in a new direction, to reinvent them, essentially, without discarding canon or verisimilitude. Retcon is a means to an end, almost a necessary evil. RDM may have used retcon as a driver, even the purpose of the show, structurally speaking, by looking at every significant event in the show so far and reinterpreting it to arrive at a conclusion that is very different to what he would envision if her were looking for a natural and logical conclusion to the story.

I got much more out of the season 1 finale. So Baltar is supposed to be the guardian of the new upgraded humanoid species.

I'm beginning to think that the end game of BSG is evolution. The cylons purpose is to dispose of the old (i.e. man kind) species which has reached its full potential in evolution,

Or, one could say, ceased to evolve: mankind has managed to stop the progression of his species, whereby only the strong or the clever survive, with better healhtcare, equality for the masses, a liberal economy, etc.

to make room for the new species (i.e. Helo's child which Baltar is supposed to protect). Then when the new species reaches its full potential, the cylons will eliminate them for the next species and so on. Notice how Helo picked Baltar to be rescued in the miniseries, then he is chosen by the cylons to father a human-cylon child ?

So, what do you think about that? Retcon or not?

Helo (of all people, if Baltar and Six take Hera, leaving Roslin and Athena to die) saved Baltar. At first glance it is simply a selfless act by a noble man, so did RDM reinterpret that act to give it some deeper mythological meaning, or was the mythological meaning inherent at the time of writing (or thirdly, of course, is there no mythological meaning there at all)?

The Cylons then selected Helo to father a child to Caprica Sharon. Was this because they saw that he was a good example of mankind, or just because he was available? Or were the Five and the Six working with Caprica Sharon cognisant of the mythological meaning behind Helo's selection, even if they chose to see it as god's will, the search for love? On first viewing I saw this Helo/Sharon experiment as a side issue to the Cylons settling on Caprica and cleaning up the remnants of the resistance, a diversion of the Five, Caprica Sharon and a few Sixes. Perhaps it was in fact the Cylon mission on Caprica, and the later aborted attempt to settle there was just a way of passing the time.

Its like Helo unconsciously or by fate picked the future protector of his unborn child.

Or by the power of retcon.

Metis

July 12th, 2008, 11:27 AM

I'm beginning to think that the end game of BSG is evolution. The cylons purpose is to dispose of the old (i.e. man kind) species which has reached its full potential in evolution, to make room for the new species (i.e. Helo's child which Baltar is supposed to protect). Then when the new species reaches its full potential, the cylons will eliminate them for the next species and so on.
Or, one could say, ceased to evolve: mankind has managed to stop the progression of his species, whereby only the strong or the clever survive, with better healhtcare, equality for the masses, a liberal economy, etc.

The Cylons then selected Helo to father a child to Caprica Sharon. Was this because they saw that he was a good example of mankind, or just because he was available?

I think RDM has always known where he wants to end, just not particularly how he is going to get there. If the end game is evolution (with which I very much agree), it is necessary for a Hera to be born. I wouldn't say Helo was elected to father the child because the Cylon saw him as a good example of mankind, or because he was available, more because Tahmoh proved so popular in the miniseries. Why not go back and make it happen that way?

(Although, oddly enough, Helo has proven one of, if not the most, consistent of characters. He's the one who sprang fully grown from Dad's head, not Athena. :) )

I don't think evolution is a realized purpose of the Cylon, though; I just can't see them as running the show. Equal opportunity for manipulation here.

I suppose this is why I don't think it much matters who the WTF are (aside from being all in favor of anything that gives Michael Hogan something to do), or what they are. What matters is what they do, whether consciously or not. Their presence has effected an accommodation between Cylon and Human. Oh, and they have eliminated Cally. :) (Not completely a throw-away thought, given Tyrol's present predicament and Boomer's present situation.)

genji2000

July 12th, 2008, 11:36 AM

I think RDM has always known where he wants to end, just not particularly how he is going to get there. If the end game is evolution (with which I very much agree), it is necessary for a Hera to be born. I wouldn't say Helo was elected to father the child because the Cylon saw him as a good example of mankind, or because he was available, more because Tahmoh proved so popular in the miniseries. Why not go back and make it happen that way?

(Although, oddly enough, Helo has proven one of, if not the most, consistent of characters. He's the one who sprang fully grown from Dad's head, not Athena. :) )

I don't think evolution is a realized purpose of the Cylon, though; I just can't see them as running the show. Equal opportunity for manipulation here.

I suppose this is why I don't think it much matters who the WTF are (aside from being all in favor of anything that gives Michael Hogan something to do), or what they are. What matters is what they do, whether consciously or not. Their presence has effected an accommodation between Cylon and Human. Oh, and they have eliminated Cally. :) (Not completely a throw-away thought, given Tyrol's present predicament and Boomer's present situation.)

Yes I'm not suggesting with the retcon idea that they sat down and said, "I haven't got a baldy clue how to finish this." I think you're you're right that they knew where they wanted to get to, probably from Season One... probably from when they introduced sacred scrolls, prophecies and special destinies... but I think from where they were at the end of Season Three (maybe mid-way through S3), deliberate, systematic and expansive retconning could have given them a major tool to use in deciding how they get there.

Anyway, after the Cally comment I obviously agree with everything you say. :)

President Beeblebrox

July 16th, 2008, 08:49 PM

Hey, wow, I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one with the idea to start re-watching the series during the seven (!!!) month hiatus between Season 4.0 and 4.5. Naturally, my wife and I started with the Miniseries. It was her second viewing, my third. Without doing a point-by-point response to the several posts in this thread, here are some thoughts:

0. The Miniseries was basically a backdoor pilot. However, about a year elapsed between the airing of the Miniseries and when the series was greenlit. As such, I am not sure that many of the supposed plot threads in the Miniseries were fully thought out. (I say this not to denigrate the Miniseries, merely to point out that it was a written as a concept pilot for a series which may or may not have been greenlit.) Therefore, one cannot necessarily say that RDM intended the Miniseries to say X or Y... although there's no reason RDM couldn't decide to do a little retconning later.

1. The "Six Shields Baltar From Blast" thing has vexed my wife and me for the entire series. It seemed like every Friday we would start a dialogue like this: "Dude, Baltar HAS to be a Cylon." "Why?" "Because he survived a nuclear blast." "But it was only a shockwave, not a direct hit." "He still survived a blast. Why did they show us that, if not to convince us he was a Chosen One? They even show it in every fracking credits sequence." Etc., etc. Given what developed later in the Miniseries and indeed throughout the entire series, it seems pretty clear that Baltar either *is* the Chosen One ... or he sustained such a psychotic break that he now THINKS he is the Chosen One, and is hallucinating both Head Six and Head Baltar.

2. I wouldn't get so exercised over the appearance of "by your command" at the very end of the Miniseries. RDM has gone on record saying that he inserted it at the last minute when someone told him it wouldn't be BSG without a Cylon saying that. I seem to think he did it just to make fanboys and girls like us squeal with glee, just like the 15-second shot of old-skool Cylons in "Razor"...

3. The one thing that really struck me about the Miniseries is the music. Bear McCreary's involvement was pretty minimal, and it shows. It's really amazing to me how his scores in the current series add so much atmosphere and complexity to the show. And, yes, I own BSG soundtracks and have been known to crank up "Precipice" and "Storming New Caprica" from the Season 3 soundtrack in my car - they're awesome.

4. I still remember the first time I saw the Miniseries; watching the destruction of the Colonies was like being punched in the gut. It may sound hackneyed, but it was like 9/11 all over again for me, which of course is exactly what RDM wanted to evoke. That total feeling of shock and helplessness, seeing people die before your eyes and being able to do nothing about it...

President Beeblebrox

July 16th, 2008, 08:57 PM

I think RDM has always known where he wants to end, just not particularly how he is going to get there. If the end game is evolution (with which I very much agree), it is necessary for a Hera to be born. I wouldn't say Helo was elected to father the child because the Cylon saw him as a good example of mankind, or because he was available, more because Tahmoh proved so popular in the miniseries. Why not go back and make it happen that way?

Evolution, and the philosophy of the "eternal return", are the prevailing factors in how I see things ending up. The Cylons are now mortal (supposedly, assuming there's not another Hub out there), so they are now more like humans than ever before. They, or at least the Three/Six faction, have expressed a desire to unite with humanity to get closer to God. They've already been described as humanity's children. We now have human/Cylon hybrids, which means both species are, well, evolving.

But if they're going to stay on a nuked planet with no natural resources, then sooner than later the new human/Cylon civilization is going to devolve into something less than it was before. They'll become primitive, losing their technology or perhaps keeping it as some sort of tribal memory. They'll need thousands of years to re-develop into what they were when they arrived ... at which time they'll be ready reach out to the stars again, just as the tribes did when they left Kobol thousands of years ago.

All this has happened before, and will happen again ... and again ... and again ... and again ...

ybemad

July 19th, 2008, 11:12 PM

genji2000

July 20th, 2008, 02:20 AM

Ok. I know I'm late on this. I just got into this on DVD, and am catching up. At the end of the mini...Who sent the Commander the message that says there are only 12 Cylon models. Who at this point knows that there are exactly 12 models, and why are they telling the commander this? This seems like one of those small forgotten about moments in the whole story arc that could come back to prove significant later on.
What do you think?

If you go on to the User CP in the toolbar and select Edit Your Details, at the bottom of the page there's an option to tell us which episode you're up to.

RDM said that he believes Baltar left the note in Adama's quarters. Baltar is the only one who knows there are twelve models, I think. I don't know what his motives were for leaving the note.

You're right that it may be a revisited instance. Then again, with so much else going on I doubt they could make it an important event. It's not as if the note gave Adama any real advantage.

Welcome to the forum.

President Beeblebrox

July 22nd, 2008, 11:13 PM

RDM said that he believes Baltar left the note in Adama's quarters. Baltar is the only one who knows there are twelve models, I think. I don't know what his motives were for leaving the note.

This is plausible. At the beginning of the series, Baltar still felt tremendous guilt over being unwittingly used to destroy the Colonies; perhaps this was his way of trying to help the fleet without being exposed as a traitor.

fr33lancer

August 20th, 2008, 06:54 PM

I watched this episode [Downloaded] again last night and, forgive me if this has been posted before, it struck me that the nuke blast may be the cause of the six in baltars head and vis-versa.

After the blast in Baltars apartment (I'm not convinced he survived) and Six is regenerated you imediately see Baltar in her head. Could the blast have caused some sort of transmition error in the resulting resurection and some of the wires got crossed and they actually share a consiousness?

I'm thinking the nature of a nuclear detonation and the effects in regards to sub-atomic principals may be at work here. I think that they are so in love with each other is because they are each other.

thevarrior

August 20th, 2008, 07:12 PM

I don't think so. I think the head Six is not really a Six, just like the Leoben that Starbuck meets is not really a Leoben.

genji2000

August 21st, 2008, 12:55 AM

I don't think so. I think the head Six is not really a Six, just like the Leoben that Starbuck meets is not really a Leoben.

Is right, I think. For sure, Head Six is not Caprica Six, and probably not even a Cylon.

In any event, this comment has more to do with the Miniseries.

fr33lancer

August 21st, 2008, 10:09 AM

In any event, this comment has more to do with the Miniseries.

Except that I was watching "Downloaded"

By your command

genji2000

August 21st, 2008, 10:24 AM

I know, but you discussed an event from the Miniseries and didn't make any reference to Downloaded.

OldManRivers

August 26th, 2008, 10:54 PM

It's weeks later. I was away. Away from internet, away from elecricity, away from BSG. As of now, I have finally begun to rewatch Battlestar Galactica. I will catch up to the rest of you soon.

I never bought the DVD but now I am in the process of collecting the whole series.

Here is my thing about the Miniseries:

The Mini-series was fun to watch. I haven't watched it in years and when I have watched it, was crappy quality. I went out and bought the DVD for this rewatch. It feels, different, to watch it now knowing what's to come. One thing I noticed, which is a nod to RDM I think, is the mysticism and spirituality that plays a part in the TV shows he makes. It's not that present in the Mini-series. I'm not talking about the mention of a god here, or a omniscient power moving things here, but actual "spiritual" events taking place in the TV show that have no explanation. An example would be Laura Roslin's messiahism, or Kara Thrace's "destiny". The plot point or tool of a higher power taking place and having a place in the storytelling of the series. We don't experience that at all in the mini-series, but as the TV show unfolds, it comes out more and more. I even say it "ramps" up a bit. As the season progress, that plot tool or storytelling tool becomes used more and more and takes a more powerful role in the show. Kara Thrace's resurrection? The Final Five?

Speaking of the Final Five. I always wondered where this "There are 12 Models" came from. I thought it was in the TV show where Adama get the note, but it's in the mini-series where Caprica-Six tells Baltar. It's interesting she mentions "12 models" when the Final Five are supposedly forbidden to think or talk about. I think it was something came up at that point. I don't think the Final Five were created until around the beginning of season 2. It was just an interesting tidbit I seen.

Bill Adama's relaxing and peaceful attitude reminded me of the colonization of New Caprica. He had the same kind of, feel. But once war broke out, the warrior that is Husker came out and he's a mean beast who kicks some ass (and gives kick ass speeches).

The part where the Cylons are sending the nuke at Roslin's ship and she refuses to leave? That is a really weird plot hole. She's a stupid frakin' idiot for saying "No, we are going to say!", when they have no ship-to-ship weapons and staying will probably mean they all die? What was she thinking. I know for character-development and suspenseful points, it was kind of cool and everything because everything (including Bill Adama) think they are dead. It just a weird plot hole I never realized before.

Why these 50'000? Why these people? Out of the billions of people that live in the colonies, THESE are the only ones that survive? Luck? Divine purpose? I don't know.

I didn't start watching BSG till "Home Part II" aired. So I was a couple years late from when it start. But if this series came out in 2003, it's quite the really radical thing in a post 9/11 America. The parallel's between what happened then and with BSG is pretty neat.

That's all I can say for now. Glad to finally be able to watch BSG. I look forward to catching up to the rest of you.

genji2000

August 31st, 2008, 04:31 AM

pagad

August 31st, 2008, 05:35 AM

I have a question - not sure where to post it and it doesn't deserve a new thread, so this is as good a place as any.

Why does Caprica Six even bother saving Baltar?

She snaps the baby's neck because it's going to die anyway. All mankind is going to die anyway, according to what we know about the new TV movie, because survivors (either on Caprica or in space) are not part of the Cylon plan. Sure she loved Baltar and you could argue that if there were to be any survivors then she'd want him to be amongst them, but the bottom line is there weren't to be any survivors. Complete eradication of the human race was the plan, so why bother protecting him from the blast?

Where there's life there's hope.

As we know from Downloaded Caprica Six suffers terrible guilt for what she did. Saving even one person's life may have helped her a little.

I don't think she planned his survival, I think it was a spur-of-the-moment thing.

The part where the Cylons are sending the nuke at Roslin's ship and she refuses to leave? That is a really weird plot hole. She's a stupid frakin' idiot for saying "No, we are going to say!", when they have no ship-to-ship weapons and staying will probably mean they all die? What was she thinking. I know for character-development and suspenseful points, it was kind of cool and everything because everything (including Bill Adama) think they are dead. It just a weird plot hole I never realized before.

I don't think it is a plot hole. I think Roslin can't quite grasp that she has to leave these people behind to die until the last moment.

I didn't start watching BSG till "Home Part II" aired. So I was a couple years late from when it start. But if this series came out in 2003, it's quite the really radical thing in a post 9/11 America. The parallel's between what happened then and with BSG is pretty neat.

Ehh. I get pretty sick of the 9/11 comparison because a nuclear holocaust is on a completely different scale to an attack on two commercial buildings, which - while tragic - didn't exactly destroy America and pretty much wipe out the human race.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.

August 31st, 2008, 12:34 PM

genji2000

August 31st, 2008, 12:52 PM

Because she loved him.

You old romantic. If she loved him him, wouldn't it be better that he died quickly and painlessly in the blast rather than suffer horrible radiation sickness and be hunted down like the dog he is by the Centurions sent in to mop up the survivors?

You can also make the claim that she killed the baby to prevent it from dying a more horrifying death.

Like suffering horrible radiation sickness and being hunted down like the dog it was by the Centurions?

Wouter

August 31st, 2008, 03:16 PM

The part where the Cylons are sending the nuke at Roslin's ship and she refuses to leave? That is a really weird plot hole. She's a stupid frakin' idiot for saying "No, we are going to say!", when they have no ship-to-ship weapons and staying will probably mean they all die? What was she thinking. I know for character-development and suspenseful points, it was kind of cool and everything because everything (including Bill Adama) think they are dead. It just a weird plot hole I never realized before.

I agree, this moment is quite a change from Roslin's normally very pragmatical behaviour. Staying makes absolutely no sense, what does she want to do, stare the nuke down? A bit later, she makes the opposite decision when she does leave the non-FTL ships behind (the correct decision, as hard as it was).

bazzyb

September 1st, 2008, 07:55 AM

You old romantic. If she loved him him, wouldn't it be better that he died quickly and painlessly in the blast rather than suffer horrible radiation sickness and be hunted down like the dog he is by the Centurions sent in to mop up the survivors?

Like suffering horrible radiation sickness and being hunted down like the dog it was by the Centurions?

We save people or at least attempt to save people all the time who are going to die such as through terminal illness. It's an instinctive thing to protect a loved one from danger in 'a fight or flight' situation. I think that it's usually not something rationally thought out.

solariabsg41

September 24th, 2008, 03:19 PM

Hiya Guys, just new here.

Watched the mini few nights ago just by co-incidence.

Caprica Six is very unusual for a Cylon. She has been working on Baltar for some time and fell in love, but there are a few other things that mark her out.

She killed the baby for example, but look at her face when she's walking away, and there's something there. Sadness? Regret? Guilt? There's definately something, does anyone think that a Cavill or Doral would have acted the same?

And then there's her look when she confronts Baltar with the other women. Is that jealousy in her face, despite her trying to hide it and appear composed?

In the final scheme of things, there really was no reason at all for her to return to Baltar and tell him anything about her true nature, she could easily have just left and allowed him to die.

As to Adama figuring out Leoben's Cylon nature, it's pretty obvious that something was up with him, and as the sole reason Ragnar was built there was cos it frakked up Cylons. Added to his own experiences in Razor, seeing that they Cylons were experimenting on something, he put two-and-two together.

I do think he was right though, Leoben was holding on for dear life cos despite what he said, Ragnar blocked him from being able to Download. This is the reason the Cylons backed off a bit after "Resurrection Ship". It's one thing to know that when you die you're simply downloaded into a new body, but quite another to realise that when you die, that's it.

Roslin made a judgement call to stay with the others during the Cylon nuke attack on Colonial One. After their near escape, I feel she probably said to herself, "Well, that was noble, but frakking stupid!", hence making the decision to abandon the larger number to their fate later.

timbo

September 24th, 2008, 03:31 PM

Hiya Guys, just new here.

Caprica Six is very unusual for a Cylon. She has been working on Baltar for some time and fell in love, but there are a few other things that mark her out.

She killed the baby for example, but look at her face when she's walking away, and there's something there. Sadness? Regret? Guilt? There's definately something, does anyone think that a Cavill or Doral would have acted the same?

Hola Sola. Yeah, I have often tried to make sense of the baby thing, but haven´t been able. Why she did it, and her reaction afterwards. I believe each cylon has a basic nature that can then be shaped by experience, love, decisions made, etc. So her motive for doing it is a pretty important part of the story, as it says a lot aboot her character. Thinking aboot it now, the "why" seems more important than her reaction.

Stairway

September 24th, 2008, 05:41 PM

I'd like to know what Leoben was doing at the Ragnar Anchorage. Was his explanation (being an illegal arms dealer) actually his cover in human society, which would mean he'd've been to Ragnar many times before? Or was he sent to cover the anchorage in case any colonials showed up, and he just got caught out, in which case why didn't the Cylons send a bigger contingent than just one man?

My theory is that he thought the same thing Adama did; It's a weapons depot and far from the colonies. If any Battlestar would survive this is one of the best places to go to. I think they placed out a lot of "just-in-cases-cylons" on places like Ragnar anchorage.

Another thing I've noticed, sorry in case someone has already mentioned this before, I haven't read all posts.
In the begining Gaeta tells Adama that they are required from to report the location of all civilian vehicles with FTL functions in case any of these would need any repairs. Adama says they're "too busy" with that. I'm almost positive the cylons sent out this message in order to persue and destroy every last one of them and if Adama had been a character that folloed rules and regulations to the full, there would never have been a civilian fleet.