Cylon Raider Tactics

[michaels]

Hello All! (first post)

I have a question that's been nagging at me lately. From the wiki, it states that a baseship is home to ~790 raiders.

If so, why do they fire off so few of them when they engage Galactica? For instance at Ragnar Anchorage, they only send out 72 raiders. At the Battle of the Ionian Nebula, there are four baseships, but they only send out 200+ raiders in total. Even if you assume that half of the raiders are either down for maintenance or being held in reserve, it means nearly 400 raiders could have been sent after Galactica at Ragnar, and 1600 raiders sent out at the Ionian Nebula.

So why do Base ships send out so few of its raiders during engagements? I'm having trouble coming up with a reason other than sending out that many raiders at once would completely overwhelm colonial defenses, and they'd have to rename the show Battlestar Kersplatica.

Michael

[Brian A. Reed]

My guess would be that since the Cylons don't have much in the way of point-defense weaponry, they use the reserved raiders as a close-in weapons system. They only launch a fraction of their Raiders on offense, and use the reserve to protect the basestar if any Vipers get through.

Also, they simply don't need to launch their full complement of Raiders in order to vastly outnumber the number of Vipers the Galactica can launch.

It might also be a matter of fuel/ammunition conservation.

[genji2000]

It might also be a matter of fuel/ammunition conversation.

Conservation even. :lol:

[stavrosg]

An image just popped in my mind about how a bullet could argue with a barrel of Tylium :lol:

On topic now. Indeed, it seems that the basestars have no flak or other guns at all. Just Raiders and missiles so keeping a reserve squadron for close defense seems logical and possible.
It can also be that some of those raiders are not "alive" in the sense that they are reserve shells for the raider personalities that die in combat, kept there to have ready replacements.

[Proxenus]

I think there are a few things coming into play. First, the Galactica will take out a substantial number of Raiders with its own defense systems ("For frak's sake, stay out of the Galactica's firing solution" to paraphrase Apollo).

Second, the Cylon Basestars use the Raiders for point defense (one of the major objectives basestar/battlestar fights is to separate the raiders from their basestars).

Third, keeping 790 raiders in the air takes a lot of work. You have to figure a substantial number of them will always be down for repairs, maintenance, refueling and rearming, et cetera. If you figure a third will always be down, you are looking at 525 raiders in the air and 245 on the ground. While Colonials have to deal with similar issues, the numbers are much smaller.

[FullyAutomaticKid]

yer i like the idea that they hold alot of raiders back for point defense, but then why don't we see them when they have close ups of the basestars?


maybe it comes down to galacticas main guns chopping up most of them in the opening salvo

[BSGfan-atic]

Thanks for starting this post, it has been something that I have also found unsatisfactory in an otherwise brilliant series. The only reason I can think of is that perhaps the Cylons don't launch all not only for point-defense purposes (Adm. Adama in Razor: "The Raiders are in their air defense configuration now. They'll shoot down anything you launch."), but also to be able to sustain an attack. If they want to keep up the pressure, they would have to have a third in battle, a third ready to relieve those in battle, and a final third in the process of refueling and rearming. If they launced all their Raiders at once, they would have all their Raiders coming back at once as well, leaving nothing in the fight.

I'm having trouble coming up with a reason other than sending out that many raiders at once would completely overwhelm colonial defenses, and they'd have to rename the show Battlestar Kersplatica.


Not only would Colonial defenses be overwhelmed, so would the CG/SFX guys!

[barnmaddo]

When you say point defense do you mean the ship stays docked and shots from its dock point like a turret, or do you mean just held in reserve and they would take off and shot if anything got close?

I've wondered if the Raiders are somehow the basestars propulsion system.

I liked the idea of empty Raiders to be resurrected into.

Raiders do have jump drives, it could be most are tied up defending far away points of interest.

It is always possible that the Cylons are not actually trying to kill Galactica, but just want to give the impression that they are.

I've wondered the same thing about Battlestars and Centurions. They nuked at least 12 planets to death, killed ~120Battlestars and then occupied those planets with Centurions. I don't think you can occupy a planet with only a couple thousand Centurions, yet on New Caprica they didn't have enough Centurions to keep the peace. You would think they could just assign one to each survivor =P. They also never show more then five or so battlestars together at once. I mean its not like they have anything better to do, their sole military threat is the BSG fleet.

[Sparrow]

I think the answer is simplier.. they DONT have 790 raiders per BaseShip.. more like 150 or so..

I dont know who was the idiot who sugested that number but is totally unrealistic and doesnt fit at all with what we see in the show..

As stated in the ionic nebula 4 baseships should have been able to field about 3.000 raiders... yet only 200 go when they are trying to destroy the human race and the Vipers stoped the main attack? it doesnt make any sense..

And renember the battle of the resurrection ship? 2 BaseStars = +1500 Raiders? ok.. they were lured away by decoys.. but can you imagine 1500 raiders going after some civilian ships?.. they werent so many even in the turkey-shoot in "Flight of the Phoenix"..

And we know the Cylons are not any good strategics (they were fooled every time the colonials presented them with a trap or deception: The hand of god, Resurrection ship battle.. New Caprica.. the HUB.. etc) but sheer numbers are a hell key.. with a swarm of a thousand raiders they could had outnumbered Galactica early air wing 26 to 1.. with 2 Basestars airwing they outnumbered Galactica airwing 41 to 1.. they would WIPE Galactica entire Viper force in one pass (and to add insult the raiders could resurrect).
How about New Caprica... 5 BaseStars = 3950 raiders? They had 1 raider per 10 human? they could simply use them to clotter NC skies..

It doesnt make sense.. so i believe the real number is too much lower.. some 150 or so.. someone was on drugs when stated that number .. or jerkin-off

It would not be the first time.. renember that someone also stated that Vipers had no inertial dampers.. thats simply impossible.. renember that there was a calculation about the speed and aceleration of for example Colonial Heavy 798 from Caprica to Galactica.. it took 5.5 hours or no much more and it was calculated by the distance that Colonial Heavy 798 reached a speed of: 61, 000, 000 MPH .. just imagine what aceleration the ship has to develop to get that speed..and stop in less than 6 hours.. many many many Gs..(over 10Gs continued you may die) and we know that Apollo was acompaning Colonial Heavy 798 back to Caprica so the Viper was capable of same aceleration.. its absolutelly necesary a form of Intertial Dampening or simply the pilots would die..period

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

I've wondered the same thing about Battlestars and Centurions. They nuked at least 12 planets to death, killed ~120Battlestars and then occupied those planets with Centurions. I don't think you can occupy a planet with only a couple thousand Centurions, yet on New Caprica they didn't have enough Centurions to keep the peace. You would think they could just assign one to each survivor =P. They also never show more then five or so battlestars together at once. I mean its not like they have anything better to do, their sole military threat is the BSG fleet.

The Cylons did mention that they had other operations elsewhere in the galaxy, and it was one of those operations that lead them to detect the radiation signature in orbit above New Caprica. The fact of the matter is that the Cylons were interested in "living with" the humans, but not enough to dedicate all their forces to the experiment.

As for the 790+ figure, here's the exact sentence from the BW page (note the emphasis is mine):
A basestar's complement of Raiders is estimated as high as 792 fighters[3] (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Baseship_%28RDM%29#cite_note-2), not counting fighters in repair or otherwise off-line.
The information came from the defunct line of official BSG magazines. Although I would definitely agree that the number seems absurdly high; it's probably only a quarter of that, based from the on-screen evidence.

Then again, there was a whole wall of raiders and heavy raiders in "Flight of the Phoenix" that numbered well in the several hundred. Whether they came from one baseship or not remains to be seen, but... it raises a few questions.

[pagad]

I was under the impression that was an independent strike force probably made up of Raiders from several basestars. We certainly didn't see any basestars during that battle, although destroying some during the Great Cylon Turkey Shoot would have been sweet.

[Sparrow]

Well.. the Cylon attack (or attempt) in Flight of the Phoenix is odd .. because it uses several hundred Cylon raiders and heavy raiders.. but not a single BaseStar ... wich doesnt make much sense ... Ok.. the raiders are FTL capable and can jump long distances, making them long range fighters and unlike Vipers, able to operate independant from their mother ship.. but still.. that was (again) THE ATEMPT to take down the fleet and board Galactica getting the baby back and destroying it after .. wonder why not a couple of Baseships didnt supported .
The "real" reason is surelly that any BaseStar would be dissabled by the returned virus and writers didnt want to destroy a BaseStar there.. (maybe to save in FX budget, or maybe they didnt want to resolv the complications of have a dissabled baseship... take out their "dangerous" halo.. or why not board it now that its down.. etc)

[michaels]

Thanks, everyone for the discussion, it's been interesting. I like the "empty shells" idea but I think this is one of those things that may never be explained.

It's not just the magazine which has that number, a couple of people were able to count up the slots and came up with similar numbers. http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Basestar_(RDM) (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Basestar_%28RDM%29) .

Michael

[michaels]

The "real" reason is surelly that any BaseStar would be dissabled by the returned virus and writers didnt want to destroy a BaseStar there.. (maybe to save in FX budget, or maybe they didnt want to resolv the complications of have a dissabled baseship... take out their "dangerous" halo.. or why not board it now that its down.. etc)

I agree. If they had a baseship there, it would have been disabled and the colonials would have wanted to board it which is somewhere the writers weren't prepared to go at that point.

Michael

[Sparrow]

Thanks, everyone for the discussion, it's been interesting. I like the "empty shells" idea but I think this is one of those things that may never be explained.

It's not just the magazine which has that number, a couple of people were able to count up the slots and came up with similar numbers. http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Basestar_(RDM) (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Basestar_%28RDM%29) .

Michael

that you can see something that seems like a "slot" doesnt mean its necesary a slot. that article asumes there are "slots" like that all arround the BaseStar 6 arms... when we have seen only 2 launch raiders in any take..(Scattered) maybe many of those slots are not such or maybe only 2 or 3 arms actually carry raiders.. the issue is that vissual evidence suggest a number not higher than 200.. because not more than those are deployed almost never..

Even if we asume a figure of 200 raiders.. that would mean that in the Ionic nebula Basestars only deployed 1/4 of their airwing.. that can be explained asuming raiders are actually the BaseStar point-defense system (they deploy arround the BaseStar to shot down incoming missiles or fighters)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Well, just launching too many birds in the air at once would cause more friendly fire incidents and would be a tactical error. Just because you have 700+ raiders at your disposal doesn't mean you use them all at once.

[pagad]

But then why send all the Raiders after civilian transports and have none to protect themselves or the Resurrection Ship against Galactica and Pegasus?

[Sparrow]

Well, just launching too many birds in the air at once would cause more friendly fire incidents and would be a tactical error. Just because you have 700+ raiders at your disposal doesn't mean you use them all at once.

But then whats the point of having 800 raiders if you cant use more than 100 or 150 ? Those Raiders even docked surelly need some short of feed, fuel or energy

[Mercer]

Maybe the Cylons launch so few to toy with the humans like a cat does after it catches a mouse. Let them feebly try and fight and thus give more amusement to the Cylons. I do think the number is much lower actually. If someone could find that picture that shows the raiders launching from their perches in season 1 or 2 then we could count that # and multiply it by six.

Edit: It appears that the CGI is waaaaaay off I got like 1008 from my calculations. So I have no clue.

[pagad]

Possibly they only deploy the number they need for an operation to minimise casualties - I can't imagine the Raiders get too happy at being continually resurrected, and having hundreds of angry "attack dogs with guns" (which is basically what the Raiders are equivalent to) can't too healthy.

[genji2000]

Possibly they only deploy the number they need for an operation to minimise casualties - I can't imagine the Raiders get too happy at being continually resurrected, and having hundreds of angry "attack dogs with guns" (which is basically what the Raiders are equivalent to) can't too healthy.

That was pretty much Scar's frame of mind wasn't it?

[pagad]

Yeah. Scar was one pissed off Raider.

Now imagine having to have hundreds of Scars on a leash.

[genji2000]

Yeah. Scar was one pissed off Raider.

Now imagine having to have hundreds of Scars on a leash.

I don't have that kind of imagination sorry.

[pagad]

Haha, I just had the mental picture of hundreds of Raiders on leashes attached to their basestar.

...

I'm at work and it's been a long day.

EDIT: I'm also listening to The Mars Volta which is somewhat influencing my state of mind.

[barnmaddo]

that you can see something that seems like a "slot" doesnt mean its necesary a slot. that article asumes there are "slots" like that all arround the BaseStar 6 arms... when we have seen only 2 launch raiders in any take..(Scattered) maybe many of those slots are not such or maybe only 2 or 3 arms actually carry raiders.. the issue is that vissual evidence suggest a number not higher than 200.. because not more than those are deployed almost never..

Even if we asume a figure of 200 raiders.. that would mean that in the Ionic nebula Basestars only deployed 1/4 of their airwing.. that can be explained asuming raiders are actually the Basestar point-defense system (they deploy arround the BaseStar to shot down incoming missiles or fighters)

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/9/95/Baseships_over_Caprica_II.jpg
You can clearly count 115 'slots' in this picture from Kobols Last Gleaming Part II. 5 rows and 27 on down to 19 per column. There may be more slots obscured by the curve of the ship. The picture also shows a set of slots on the far away lower spar of the basestar. The spars seem fairly close together so I am assuming they are the smallest two of the three spars on a level of a Basestar and are both the same.

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/2/25/Baseship%2C_hornet_nest.jpg
This picture from Scattered shows 28 by 6 in the middle slot. This picture isn't that great but if you watch the episode there are a few better pictures of that large, rectangular upper docking site.

we have seen only 2 launch raiders in any take..(Scattered) maybe many of those slots are not such or maybe only 2 or 3 arms actually carry raiders..You can actually see all three arms launch in Scattered, close ups of launches from the left and middle. The right arm launches just at the very beginning, but is finished launching by the time it gets a semi close up at the very end of the scene.

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/2/22/Baseship_-_Raiders_-_Raptor.jpg
In the episode Torn when Gaius launches from the basestar in the raptor you can see Raiders in the slots of 4 different arms. Considering how earlier shots strongly implied that the 'front' three arms are symmetrical with respect to raiders it would make sense that the 'back' three arms are also symmetrical and thus all can carry raiders, although may not always be full of raiders.

Based on this I am fairly certain that there are four arms with at least 115 raider in a half rectangle/half triangle layout and two slightly larger arms with 168 raiders in them in a rectangular layout. Making a grand total of 796 raiders.

Interestingly enough I count 16x5 and two small rows of 6? for the large rectangular slot in the episode Torn. Either they have different sizes of Basestars, I miss counted somewhere or this is a graphics upgrade. A quick guess puts maybe 60slots in the smaller arms for 424 raiders in the model.
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Change.jpg

Ugh I'm taking a break. I am fairly certain that the original Basestar had ~796 raiders. Although I couldn't find any scene's with the old Basestar that showed slots on any more then three of the arms.

[Sparrow]

I dont deny that but never ever ever never they are seem deploying more than 200 and there is no excuse..

Galactica had only 40 Vipers left... down to 34 or so before Peggy joined .. and to top that Raiders can resurrect minimizing the loss..

They could had simply swarmed in and taked out ALL colonial Vipers in seconds forming a wall.. why worry about looses.. there are NO more Vipers.. once you take them all its over 40 viper vs 800 Raiders per BaseStar? and they use 2 ussually in ambushes.. so 40 vs 1600 .. thats 40 - 1 .. they were scared simply facing 5-1 or 4-1.

It doesnt make any sense.. why carry 800 Raiders if you cant deploy more than a couple hundreds.. its stupid and pointless.

uh.. im turning in the Angry Galactica Nerd

[Osprey]

"The spars seem fairly close together so I am assuming they are the smallest two of the three spars on a level of a Basestar and are both the same."

why do we assume all six spars carry raiders? perhaps only 3 do? or mebbe 4 [which would put the capacity at ~460, a far more reasonable figure]? i mean, there's a lot of "stuff" necessary to run a basestar, it's much more than simply a raider hanger ...

[Sgt Teta]

Remember, they have to manufacture and deliver raiders when they blow up, feed them, store them, wipe their mainframes, etc,etc, plus annumition etc.

The fact that when cylons lose a ressurection ship they cant simply build another, shows that they have logistics problems too.

Plus a wall of 800 raiders = a very easy target for flak, big guns or.... a NUKE!

800 raiders would be completely unweildy in a space battle, plus the fact that the basestar obviously has no point defence, perhaps they keep some for protection.

I know this all flies in the face of the attack on the civillian ships in kobols last gleaming, but still.

[genji2000]

With FTL drives, why couldn't the Raiders jump and then jump back behind the enemy defences in a sort of pincer movement? 200 Raiders per line doesn't sound unwieldy.

[Sgt Teta]

I think this was briefly covered in the Wiki. When it comes to speen, with jump calculations, assuming they take half the time of a raptor, lets say, 1 minute, sometimes its quicker just to go sublight.

As to why they dont do it in a tactical sence, well, i cant honestly say, but galactica' point defence guns are evidently very effective, they would likley be ripped apart if they jumped in at such close range.

Plus, it dosent make a very interesting space battle does it :P

[genji2000]

I dunno. I liked the way Mel Gibson used the horses in Braveheart.

[genji2000]

Sorry, I mean 'cavalry'.

[BSGfan-atic]

As for why the Cylons don't deploy more Raiders in each engagement, as I said in my previous post,

The only reason I can think of is that perhaps the Cylons don't launch all not only for point-defense purposes (Adm. Adama in Razor: "The Raiders are in their air defense configuration now. They'll shoot down anything you launch."), but also to be able to sustain an attack. If they want to keep up the pressure, they would have to have a third in battle, a third ready to relieve those in battle, and a final third in the process of refueling and rearming. If they launced all their Raiders at once, they would have all their Raiders coming back at once as well, leaving nothing in the fight.

This has a real life parallel: During the great carrier battles of the Second World War in the Pacific, at times both the Japanese and Americans found themselves without a defense because all their planes were away on a strike mission. Then, they would have to rely on their AAA to keep the attackers off. The Americans were usually better about this than the Japanese, but were still sometimes embarrassed.

[Sgt Teta]

We know the cylon basestars have no point defence weapons, so this would seem a very prudent course of action.
Galactica can send all vipers attacking, knowing its flak barrage can hold off most opponents, the cylons cant do this, and since the vipers are generally coming to destroy the basestar, it would be only prudent to keep some behind for point defence