Is the Fifth switched on? [Archive]

genji2000

June 25th, 2008, 01:53 AM

So...did the fifth cylon get switched on like the other four, or is he/she still a sleeper? If so, why didnt the Watchtower signal activate them?

Maybe she didn't reach the Ionian Nebula until right at the end of Crossroads Part 2; maybe she was already activated. The Watchtower Four have only been activated as Cylons, like Boomer was in Season One. They don't yet appear to understand their nature or destiny as the Final Five.

I read an interesting note on Saul, the first king of Israel, how he led the resistance against the Ammonites, the occupying force in his city, Jabesh-Gilead, and how when they conquered his city the surrendering citizens had their right eyes removed as a mark of their enslavement.

Aurora

June 25th, 2008, 11:39 PM

I read an interesting note on Saul, the first king of Israel, how he led the resistance against the Ammonites, the occupying force in his city, Jabesh-Gilead, and how when they conquered his city the surrendering citizens had their right eyes removed as a mark of their enslavement.

Wow..that is very interesting. Can't be a coincidence.

So, even though the 4 are now aware they are cylons, it is interesting that they don't also know their destiny/purpose/history/true natures. Will this come when they are finally joined with the fifth, or will there be another signal? It seems like they would be the ones in control at that point. D'Anna would have to submit to their leadership. I wonder why she doesn't already? It aggravated me how she just took over as leader once she was returned.

barnmaddo

June 26th, 2008, 12:51 AM

I think the fifth is dead! It would explain why D'anna was sorry. And why they haven't been revealed yet!
I assumed D'anna was saying sorry for being an ass and trying to kill Sam back on Caprica (S2E18 Downloaded). Hmm but if you're right and D'anna/Cylons mostly permanently killed the fifth, oh that would be good.

If the fifth is with the fleet and is not Starbuck, then they're almost certainly turned on. Dead fifth/Other, I'd guess that their also turned on.

genji2000

June 26th, 2008, 12:55 AM

So, even though the 4 are now aware they are cylons, it is interesting that they don't also know their destiny/purpose/history/true natures. Will this come when they are finally joined with the fifth, or will there be another signal? It seems like they would be the ones in control at that point. D'Anna would have to submit to their leadership. I wonder why she doesn't already? It aggravated me how she just took over as leader once she was returned.

I'm only assuming they don't understand their purpose, but they didn't know what to look for on Kara's Viper so I think it's a reasonable assumption. I don't know if this issue will even be tackled - maybe their destiny will only be apparent to them after it's been fulfilled. For the sake of speculation though, I might guess that once all five are reunited they may have an epiphany. I think it's interesting that Col. Tigh's forename in early drafts was Paul, not Saul, in that Saul of Tarsus had an epiphany on the road to Damascus. An epiphany being the moment of clarification when you 'see the light' could relate to "the five lights of the apocalypse rising, struggling towards the light." It's only conjecture.

As for them leading the Cylons - I'm not sure the Cylons see them as leaders as much as gifted children to be loved and nurtured. They don't seem to know their ultimate purpose. Whether D'Anna knows they don't know I don't know, but it may be important that she didn't push Tory into a leadership role. It wasn't Tory who talked D'Anna down from the precipice, but Gaius, possibly in his role as the Chosen One. The Final Five may be agents, catalysts, not leaders. But it's only conjecture.

LSOP

June 26th, 2008, 07:18 AM

genji2000

June 26th, 2008, 07:27 AM

I think the 5th is Boomer, and she is activated, and although she knows she's a cylon, she thinks she is just another 8, and not one of the final 5. I don't know the exact moment she was activated, but it seemed to take hold of her over time, like a gradual awakening, and was definitely in place before "Water".

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think everything prior to Kobol's Last Gleaming part 2 was depression caused by a doubt over her true nature (i.e. as a Cylon). In a similar way we saw Tyrol beat the crap out of Cally and go through equally depressing dreams and doubts, culminating in his session with psychologist Cavil, yet he was clearly not activated until later at the Ionian Nebula.

Of course it's debatable because some of Boomer's actions prior to KLG2 were in accordance with her Cylon programming.

LSOP

June 26th, 2008, 09:24 AM

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think everything prior to Kobol's Last Gleaming part 2 was depression caused by a doubt over her true nature (i.e. as a Cylon). In a similar way we saw Tyrol beat the crap out of Cally and go through equally depressing dreams and doubts, culminating in his session with psychologist Cavil, yet he was clearly not activated until later at the Ionian Nebula.

Of course it's debatable because some of Boomer's actions prior to KLG2 were in accordance with her Cylon programming.

What I'm calling her activation is when the first real uncontrollable cylon programming or abilities kicked in. I differentiate that with her conscious realization that she's a cylon, and also with her conscious realization that she is one of the final five. The latter I believe she has not had yet.

Actually maybe there is no actual "activation". Maybe there are just things that start happening, like hearing music, or shooting commanders, or giving red-eye signals to raiders, that make them finally realize that have always been cylons. Then with a little more deduction, and identification by D'Anna, they realize they are F5.

genji2000

June 26th, 2008, 09:49 AM

What I'm calling her activation is when the first real uncontrollable cylon programming or abilities kicked in. I differentiate that with her conscious realization that she's a cylon, and also with her conscious realization that she is one of the final five. The latter I believe she has not had yet.

Actually maybe there is no actual "activation". Maybe there are just things that start happening, like hearing music, or shooting commanders, or giving red-eye signals to raiders, that make them finally realize that have always been cylons. Then with a little more deduction, and identification by D'Anna, they realize they are F5.

Like, they always felt different, a little bit odd, but then so do a lot of humans. Gradually it dawns on them that it might be something more than being a bit odd. Then suddenly something happens that can't be explained any other way (like meeting fifteen of yourself) and you eventually admit what you already know.

That sounds reasonable.

Wouter

June 26th, 2008, 06:47 PM

If Boomer is the 5th, then she is almost certainly unaware of that, IMO. She may be "activated" in the sense that she is getting commands from her subconscious/deep programming though, just like happened in S1 with the sleeper programming from the normal Cylons. If she is the 5th, the sleeper programming would actually be of the 5 all along I suppose, but with 2 layers, one of which the 7 think was theirs.

Captin Jenkins

June 26th, 2008, 08:45 PM

Whoever the fifth is, If he or she is in the fleet then I don't think that he/she is a sleeper like the Watchtower-Four were. Whoever it is knows what they are and is working undercover possibly orchestrating things from behind the scenes.

Aurora

June 26th, 2008, 11:12 PM

genji2000

June 27th, 2008, 03:33 AM

Is the fifth even in the fleet? D'Anna said he/she was not. Maybe they have never been part of events in person, but telepathically or omnipresent, and perhaps he/she is waiting on Earth. The writers said they've known since S1 who the FF would be...that doesn't mean it has to be a character from that Season, per se. Or am I wrong about this? It is an important distinction.

It depends on whether the Fifth was on the rebel Basestar or back in the Cylon fleet when D'Anna said only four were in the colonial fleet. If the Fifth was on the Basestar (which has now joined the colonial fleet) then he/she must now be in the fleet, possibly even on Earth (e.g. Roslin, Helo or Baltar).

The Writers said they've known from the end of Season One who the Final Cylon is. The Watchtower Four weren't identified until part way through Season Three. Is the indication that the Fifth has been in the show since the beginning a different quote or is it inferred from the Final Cylon being known since Season One? If the former then (misdirection notwithstanding) we have to assume that he/she appeared (or was at least mentioned) in Season One.

It is an important distinction, and I think you're right to point it out.

I think it unlikely that the Fifth is on Earth waiting for them. How could D'Anna recognise him/her if that is the case? I think she does know who all five are because she was quite clear that only four of them were in the colonial fleet.

LSOP

June 27th, 2008, 08:39 AM

I think she does know who all five are because she was quite clear that only four of them were in the colonial fleet.

Excactly. For D'Anna to say that only 4 were in the fleet, it meant that she 1) recognised who the fifth was, and 2) she must have made visual contact with that person prior to making the statement that there were only 4 in the fleet, which means sometime between when she woke up on the Hub, and when she made the statement to Laura on the Basestar.

This greatly narrows the possibilities of who the 5th is, and definitely increases the odds that it is Boomer.

genji2000

June 27th, 2008, 09:01 AM

Excactly. For D'Anna to say that only 4 were in the fleet, it meant that she 1) recognised who the fifth was, and 2) she must have made visual contact with that person prior to making the statement that there were only 4 in the fleet, which means sometime between when she woke up on the Hub, and when she made the statement to Laura on the Basestar.

This greatly narrows the possibilities of who the 5th is, and definitely increases the odds that it is Boomer.

That doesn't allow for dead characters (whom D'Anna knows are dead and therefore not in the fleet) or characters left behind on Caprica or New Caprica (who never have been in the fleet, or who haven't been for ages).

LSOP

June 27th, 2008, 11:41 AM

That doesn't allow for dead characters (whom D'Anna knows are dead and therefore not in the fleet) or characters left behind on Caprica or New Caprica (who never have been in the fleet, or who haven't been for ages).

Actually, I think it does.

As far as left-behinds, D'Anna would have to know for sure that a person was left behind, and I don't believe that she can have that certainty. On New Caprica everything was so crazy with the exodus off the planet that she really didn't have time to take stock of who was left behind. I guess she probably saw Hera's foster mother lying dead there, but unless they do some flashback where where we see D'Anna watching the last Colonial vessel taking off, and she notes someone who is left behind.... highly doubtful but possible. But even then she wouldn't know for sure that Adama didn't send a rescue ship back to New Caprica to get those last few, like they did on Caprica. And similarly, for Caprica, we would have to flash back to some scene of her watching the Kara rescue team taking Anders and friends back to the fleet, and her seeing someone else that missed the bus. And how would she know for sure that there weren't subsequent rescues that picked up more left-behinds. The point is that if she recognised the 5th as a left-behind, she couldn't be 100% sure that that person didn't eventually get rescued somehow. Remember Anders is F5, and what were the chances that he would have been reunited with the fleet? She would have only been able to say, "There are at least 4 in your fleet, possibly 5" So, for me, the confidence with which she says there are only 4 in the fleet means that she has physically seen the 5th since the time she was resurected in the Hub.

Now as for dead people, indirectly it is the same argument. If it is someone she knows has died already, then how does she know that person didn't resurrect somewhere and return to the fleet? They ARE final five cylons after all (at least in her mind), and if they can't resurrect, then how special are they? So I think since she couldn't rule out the resurrection of the 5th, that she couldn't be sure that they weren't in the fleet, unless she had physically seen them since she resurrected in the Hub.

Aurora

June 27th, 2008, 03:29 PM

I think it unlikely that the Fifth is on Earth waiting for them. How could D'Anna recognise him/her if that is the case?

Ahh. You are correct, sir.

cameraguyfresno

June 27th, 2008, 07:42 PM

I'm guessing this only on a hunch - since I believe that Boomer is the final cylon. The other four were switched on when they were getting closer to earth...and ultimately when they got to the Ionian nebulae. If that holds true then when Boomer gets closer to earth then she'd be activated too.

correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember seeing Boomer within there...I could be wrong.

I've been wondering about that too. I think the Final Cylon has always been "switched on" and they are aware of both their own and the other four's true nature.
I also think that they are orchestrating things somehow.

I could be completely wrong but I don't know how else they would explain not being turned on in the nebula. Unless of course it isn't a core character, which I don't think is likely.

Wouter

June 28th, 2008, 12:19 PM

genji2000

June 28th, 2008, 12:48 PM

Boomer was probably on one of the four baseship when those ambushed the colonial fleet in the nebula. So, it seems she has been in the nebula.

I don't think she will be activated until she's united with the other 4, or at least until she has met one of her old friends (say, Helo or even Adama sr).

The 4 were activated in the nebula, but the 5th appears to be quite different to those 4 just as the 4 are quite different from the 7.

I suppose it's fairly moot until we're into 4.5 as it's now just speculation but there doesn't appear to be any indication from the Watchtower Four that they've been 'activated' as anything other than Cylons, which Boomer already is. They've been told they're F5, and I'm sure they can do enough maths to subtract 7 from 12, but they don't seem to have much of a clue what to do with F5 status other than follow the music. So my guess is that there'll be no F5-activation, though there may be some kind of epiphany or other explication to reveal their purpose, and this will include the Fifth.

I really like the scene that guess about being reunited with Helo or Adama conjures up. After the shooting, his morbid fascination with her corpse, his relationship with Athena, her resurrection, etc. a confrontation between Adama and Boomer would be juicy, especially because it almost came about in The Eye of Jupiter but didn't quite.

Wouter

June 28th, 2008, 02:42 PM

Everyone who likes the Boomer character would want that meeting with Adama, I suppose. Her story can never be finished in a proper way without her confronting Adama and Tyrol (and preferably, Helo and Starbuck as well).

I just hope that the writers have always avoided this (just recently they got a great chance to have her meet Helo in "the hub", and they could always just have let her be part of the rebels to start with) because they have bigger plans for her with the final Cylon reveal - and then they can still do it (pretty much have to do it I suppose, the final Cylon won't be revealed for laughs only). The likely alternative is that they just aren't interested in her story anymore, which would be a shame.

Martyr of the Cause

July 2nd, 2008, 12:23 PM

I'm not sure if the 5th is switched on yet (because I think the 5th Cylon is Dualla, and while I think it's likely she has not been switched on, it's also possible she's denying what she's feeling). I have a hard time reconciling what D'Anna says about there only being four Cylons in the fleet. If the final Cylon hasn't been switched on, perhaps D'Anna doesn't actually know its identity, but that seems like a stretch. Perhaps she doesn't want the final Cylon because of something about its nature/purpose, but again that seems like a stretch. It likewise seems odd to me that the final Cylon is anyone on the basestar, but that dos seem to still be a possibility. I have to say the whole deal has me mighty confounded.

However, I am sure that Boomer is not the final Cylon. She is an 8, which is an existing model of Cylon. There are 12 models, which has been in the show too long to be treated as anything less than gospel at this point. There actually being 11 models but one of them has a special model that gets to count as its own model doesn't make any sense to me. I'd more expect the final Cylon to be a dead character than I could see it being Boomer.

genji2000

July 2nd, 2008, 01:42 PM

However, I am sure that Boomer is not the final Cylon. She is an 8, which is an existing model of Cylon. There are 12 models, which has been in the show too long to be treated as anything less than gospel at this point. There actually being 11 models but one of them has a special model that gets to count as its own model doesn't make any sense to me. I'd more expect the final Cylon to be a dead character than I could see it being Boomer.

No, Boomer is a Seven (at least for the sake of argument - the Final Five apparently have no model numbers). The Sevens and Eights (i.e. the consciousnesses) are so similar it allows the Final Cylon to download into an Eight body. Hence Boomer can operate undetected in Cylon society because the Cylons think she's an Eight like all the other Eights (although they were clearly perturbed when she voted against 'her model').

You're correct in that an Eight cannot be the Final Cylon, but Boomer is not an Eight.

mikey728

July 3rd, 2008, 12:45 PM

Maybe we are thinking about this the totally wrong way. Its possible we saw the final cylon from the very beginning of the series. We just didn't care to outright notice.

Anybody remember the cylons removing the inhibitors from the centurion models? Seems like they have their own personalities no? I might be possible that the final cylon is in fact the centurion model. The way tory looked at it, and the way the model looked at her. It might not even be fully awakened..
But while being inhibited the centurion models carried out alot of dirty work, in fact they were a major contributor to helping destroy the colonies. That itself could be the major sin. D'anna might have said she was sorry to a centurion, for all the times she asked it to do horrible things.

mikey728

July 3rd, 2008, 12:53 PM

No, Boomer is a Seven (at least for the sake of argument - the Final Five apparently have no model numbers). The Sevens and Eights (i.e. the consciousnesses) are so similar it allows the Final Cylon to download into an Eight body. Hence Boomer can operate undetected in Cylon society because the Cylons think she's an Eight like all the other Eights (although they were clearly perturbed when she voted against 'her model').

You're correct in that an Eight cannot be the Final Cylon, but Boomer is not an Eight.
Im not sure that can work. There have been several different 6 models, each with varied persona's. It seems more to me that the longer a model continues (without dying of course) the more varied and individualized they become. It also has everything to do with their personal experiences.

The Natalie 6 its a prime example as to how one model can be different from another copy. She was a product of years personal sins including killing all those people in colonies.

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 12:58 PM

Im not sure that can work. There have been several different 6 models, each with varied persona's. It seems more to me that the longer a model continues (without dying of course) the more varied and individualized they become. It also has everything to do with their personal experiences.

The Natalie 6 its a prime example as to how one model can be different from another copy. She was a product of years personal sins including killing all those people in colonies.

You're right about a copy of a model developing idiosyncrasies, or just outright developing, but in the Boomer 'theory' she's not just another copy of the Eight model - she's a different model entirely. I don't see how describing the development of a copy negates the Boomer argument.

When you say "the longer a model continues" I think you mean "the longer a copy continues".

mikey728

July 3rd, 2008, 01:13 PM

You're right about a copy of a model developing idiosyncrasies, or just outright developing, but in the Boomer 'theory' she's not just another copy of the Eight model - she's a different model entirely. I don't see how describing the development of a copy negates the Boomer argument.

When you say "the longer a model continues" I think you mean "the longer a copy continues".

I've never read up on the whole boomer being the final cylon model thing. But if one of the major clues to that theory is her being able to bare a child ( the significant 7 don't seem to able to it on their own) it would make sense. However one of the 6 models recently became pregnant too. Is the boomer theory discussed here on the forums i'd like to read it lol

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 01:34 PM

I've never read up on the whole boomer being the final cylon model thing. But if one of the major clues to that theory is her being able to bare a child ( the significant 7 don't seem to able to it on their own) it would make sense. However one of the 6 models recently became pregnant too. Is the boomer theory discussed here on the forums i'd like to read it lol

I'm not sure bearing a child is an indication of being one of the Final Five, but it's an interesting point in that perhaps the major failure of Cylon propagation is that the ability to bear children is repressed in like kinds, according to god's plan (as the Cylons see it). That is, siblings must not procreate together. The Significant Seven call each other "brother" and "sister", and cannot conceive a child together. Likewise, maybe the Final Five cannot conceive a child together, because their models, although 'fundamentally different' to the Significant Seven, are too alike. This would be commanded in their original programming. Hence, Tyrol and Boomer could not conceive because they are both Final Five, but Tigh and Caprica Six can because they are not alike.

So where does that leave Cavil and Boomer, if she is Final Five? Likewise, Cavil and Ellen Tigh, if she is?

lol

mikey728

July 3rd, 2008, 01:52 PM

Thats easy. Ellen Tigh was a whore. And everybody knows whores can't reproduce. And boomer and tyrol had a bit of an odd relationship. Its possible tyrol didn't make the "deposit" lol. Where as saul didn't and said frak it i'll just leave it in the toaster.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.

July 3rd, 2008, 02:25 PM

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 02:26 PM

Wow. :so:

Yeah. I thought it best not to respond.

mikey728

July 3rd, 2008, 02:27 PM

what !? i thought it was funny

genji2000

July 3rd, 2008, 02:29 PM

what !? i thought it was funny

Fair enough, mate. It was a bit near the knuckle, but I've been guilty enough of that myself.

The Nubs

July 3rd, 2008, 03:56 PM

Batman316

July 4th, 2008, 12:27 AM

Prolescum

August 22nd, 2008, 10:47 AM

Sorry, I have been on vacation and haven't been on in a while so if this has already been stated I apolgize. But with the recent comments about how they need to revisit the mini series and the photos of the courtyard with the strollers could the final cylon be either the mother or the baby itself that six killed?

I personally don't think so, it has been stated somewhere that when writing the final eps, they couldn't figure out the plot until RDM wrote on a board, 'it's all about the characters, numbnuts' or somesuch, so I don't think that would satisfy this simple idea.
:)

jabedoben

August 22nd, 2008, 08:23 PM

I have a gut feeling that the fifth has been self aware from the beginning, and has been manipulating events throughout.

And I still think it's Roslin.

13th_Cylon

August 22nd, 2008, 11:09 PM

And I still think it's Roslin.

So do i.

I can picture her as having already been to earth as President of the USA.

Her name is another form of RED. Red is the Cylon colour.

Her position of President of the colonies was a skilful manoevre and not luck.

She is controlling the fleet.

She actuallly has been Head 6 all the time and controlling Baltar

She is clearly in D'Annas vision of the final five.

D'Anna says sorry to her realising how disrespectful she had been.

She is the final cylon.

She is the Cylon God.............

Also D'Anna actually confronts Roslin and tells her she is the final cylon ("The Hub")

"but you don't know that you're one of them......"

She immediately backs down when she senses Roslin's reaction and realises that it is not the correct time for any of the F5 to be revealed.

genji2000

August 23rd, 2008, 04:13 AM

It's not Roslin you know. Since his original slip-up regarding the Last Supper photo, RDM has clarified twice that the Final Cylon is not in the photo. It's a shame we have that external piece of evidence at all, but alas we do.

13th_Cylon

August 23rd, 2008, 06:50 AM

He had to say that....he knows im on to him........:p

Anyway i theorise that its not the colonial Roslin we know in the last supper photo but a copy. Most probably when we get to see the last president of the USA on earth it will look exactly like her (ie darker hair) lighting the fire of humanities death just like she is doing in the photo.

genji2000

August 23rd, 2008, 07:44 AM

Is it time for your meds yet?

13th_Cylon

August 23rd, 2008, 09:56 PM

Yes the nurse just told me 5 more minutes on the puter before lights out. But its been fun. Over and out.

Chiefchess

August 24th, 2008, 02:04 AM

I wonder how the final cylon will be revealed. Will the person know he (or she) was a cylon all along or would he be surprised? I wonder if he will have to sing the lyrics of "The Watchtower" to the other four cylons to prove he is the real thing.
More importantly, I would like to know if the final cylon reveals himself in such a way that draws the anger of the human fleet or if he gives himself up to save someone.
One of the clips shows Adama blindfolded and apparently awaiting execution. How crazy would it be for the final cylon to reveal himself to save Adama. I can see it now. The final cylon reveals himself to whomever is about to kill Adama (we won't see the final cylon, of course) and the episode ends with the final cylon actually removing Adama's blindfold and Adama saying "By Gods, it's YOU." Then the episode will end and we would have to wait another week to find out who he is talking to.
Wouldn't put it past the writers of BSG to frak with our minds that way.:lol:

leland_starkiller

August 31st, 2008, 08:23 PM

I think the fifth is dead! It would explain why D'anna was sorry. And why they haven't been revealed yet!

Although they could just be hiding and D'anna did something to him/her that was near unforgivable?

But the question is why isn't D'anna telling anyone about it?

My "nugget" response is that D'Anna was apologizing to Anders when she saw his face. After all, she did almost kill him on Caprica, if not for the intervention of Six.

LSK

EDIT: Can you tell I'm a nugget, LOL? I noticed someone already mentioned this. Let's just say I'm throwing my support their way, hehehe

Emperor Fabulous

August 31st, 2008, 09:20 PM

Has anyone compiled a list of characters that she has already seen face-to-face, and then produced a list of who she hasn't?

Chiefchess

September 1st, 2008, 07:31 PM

I don't think D'Anna's response to one of the hooded figures (Rapture) is as important as why D'Anna went from saying there was five cylons in the fleet (The Hub) and then says there are only four (Revelations). What changed?

I have seen many theories as to why she did this (D'Anna is lying, the last F5 was already on board, the final F5 was already dead, etc.) I'm inclined to agree with the theory that the final cylon is already dead.

Notice the change between "The Hub" and "Revelations". Why would D'Anna lie? The longer the last F5 is with the humans, the more likely it is that the F5 cylon will be caught. I also don't believe that the final cylon was on the ship. If he or she was (Roslin, Crashdown, Baltar, etc.), D'Anna would have revealed it so the F5 would have to stay on the ship with the cylons or risk being killed by the humans.

So how did D'Anna know the last F5 was dead? Here's how. In "The Hub", the model 8 cylon that was with Helo revealed that she accessed Athena's memories after Athena was downloaded the last time she was killed (Rapture). Besides the entertainment of watching Helo freak out, why did the writers include this? Because it reveals how D'Anna found out somewhere between "The Hub" and "Revelations" that the F5 cylon was already dead and thus not in the fleet. While we have no evidence that a 3 model can access the memories of another model, we also have no evidence that she can't.

My theory is that while Laura and Adama were kissing (FINALLY) at the end of "The Hub", D'Anna accessed Athena's memories (which would make sense, as Athena was with the human fleet and would know who died.) She learned that one of the F5 had died, which would explain why she suddenly became hard-nosed in "Revelations"; she saw one cylon die and she was determined not to lose the others.

I think this is the most likely scenario because it opens up the most interesting possibilities. Is the final cylon Ellen (struggling to redeem herself after betraying the humans to save Tigh), Zak (opens up a new angle in the love saga that is Kara Starbuck), Kat (weird that Starbuck would choose to talk to her picture at the end of revelations), etc.

While the F5 may be alive or not (or switched on, for that matter), I am willing to bet that D'Anna acquired Athena's memories and chose not to reveal the identity of the fifth because of what she learned from them.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.

September 1st, 2008, 07:50 PM

The Cylon memory-acquisition process is a bit tricky, and hasn't been really defined all that well. Except for the more important piece of the following...

According to Bradley Thompson, memories can only be shared between members of the same model line, which is how the Athena wannabe was able to acquire Athena's memories, but not (for instance) Caprica-Six's.

icklepants

September 7th, 2008, 09:09 PM

Apologies if this has been said and will be said again but I'm going to babble on about various observations.
Since the end of last season I've had this little inkling that not only was the final fifth switched on but they were also the switcher-onner (not a word I know). It would make sense that the reason they were not in the room is because they were causing the head melody to be played. An idea that I'm not over-excited about because that simply leads me to a(n ex-)Communications Officer as they would be in a good position to do such a thing.

However there is also De'anna's cut-off from five to four when they ask about the four cylons in the fleet. It's abrupt, and she for some reason does not want to give away what she knows. Is it truly that the final fifth is dead and therefore no longer in the fleet, the final fifth is on the baseship and therefore not technically "in the fleet", or that she is fully aware of the main cylon (the fifth) being switched on and she wants to have a power struggle with them? Is she challenging the fifth's ability to control (loose term) the other four, believing if she can bring the four onboard, she can entice the final fifth out. Or has she already checked the fifth out and they are currently not switched on.

Babble nearly over but just a quick question, when she says "four, there are four in your fleet" (quoting from memory, could be wrong) who is she addressing?

genji2000

September 8th, 2008, 01:01 AM

Roslin, IIRC.

The Dirt

September 8th, 2008, 02:04 AM

Adama. All I remember is that they (the writers) made it clear that D'Anna never said that there were five in the fleet, but it was always insinuated that the five are with the humans. It is my understanding that she was clarifying that whoever the fifth is, was not in the fleet at the time. Hence, the fifth was either with her at the time that she said this (Adama Sr.), or was already on the baseship being held captive. This means that this is either Baltar, Roslin, Helo, or some insignificant pilot.

genji2000

September 8th, 2008, 02:15 AM

LEOBEN: You'll rejoin your fleet in less than an hour.
ROSLIN: Then we will return your Final Five to you.
D'ANNA: Four. There are four in your fleet.
ROSLIN: Four. Where's the Fifth?
D'ANNA: I want the four in your fleet.
ADAMA: Be easier if you'd just tell us who they are.
D'ANNA: Easier because you could kill them.

etc.

The Dirt

September 8th, 2008, 02:40 AM

sonofabitch.

genji2000

September 8th, 2008, 02:44 AM

Effort pays dividends occasionally.

13th_Cylon

September 8th, 2008, 04:21 AM

well isnt it obvious then...if D'anna is talking TO Roslin then by saying there are 4 in YOUR fleet she means the 4 OTHER cylons in the fleet OTHER than Roslin herself !

Come on......its Roslin .........u know it is...ur all to shy....

genji2000

September 8th, 2008, 05:00 AM

... just a quick question, when she says "four, there are four in your fleet" (quoting from memory, could be wrong) who is she addressing?

Why do you ask?

The Dirt

September 8th, 2008, 11:31 AM

Theory #7385173: Cavil always knew who the F5 were and was against D'Anna's at the Algea Planet and, later, against Natalie's plan because he knew that the F5 were with the humans. He makes a rather bold statement when talking to Natalie, stating that the humans are anywhere but with the humans. I think he knew all along and was simply trying to stop Natalie because he knew it could lead to a scism among the Cylons.

icklepants

September 8th, 2008, 12:53 PM

Why do you ask?

For the same reason the 13th_cylon said. If she is addressing both Roslin and Adama as a joint "your" fleet, this means that grammatically she has found a way to not say Adama or Roslin is the fifth. I don't think I'm making sense, I'll try again. If Adama or Roslin is the final fifth she can technically say "there are four in YOUR fleet" but she cannot say "there are four in THE fleet" because that would be a lie. I just found it interesting her use of language, it also implies that the final fifth is either roslin or adama because technically Baltar is still part of the fleet, even if he's not on board.

Further to this, did anyone notice how she deferred to Adama constantly throughout this process? "If that's alright with you Admiral", and when dealing with Apollo she demanded to deal with Adama. I don't want it to be Adama necessarily but if it is he's switched on and if it was Roslin she's not (because D'Anna has already tested that water).

genji2000

September 8th, 2008, 12:53 PM

Theory #7385173: Cavil always knew who the F5 were and was against D'Anna's at the Algea Planet...

We have considered Cavil as the original programmer, though that position is looking more and more like the Final Cylon.

Anyway, since you bring it, and no one's answered it before, where did that Cavil in the Temple of Five come from? I don't think he travelled down with D'Anna and Baltar, did he? He didn't seem to be hanging around thme on their trek from the landing site to the temple. And he couldn't have already been down there. So where did he come from?

spottedtan

September 8th, 2008, 04:09 PM

genji2000

September 8th, 2008, 04:44 PM

Just to throw a monkey wrench into things, I wonder if D'Anna said:

D'ANNA: I want the four in your fleet.

NOT because the 5th is dead, or running freely around the baseship, but that the 5th is actually imprisoned by the cylons?

My argument that the 5th could possibly be with the cylons as a captive: Season 3.8 episode "Hero" in which Bulldog escapes leads me to speculate that he is not the only human captive aboard the basestar. Could it be that the cylons have possesion of someone whom was important but "died" or something else and disappeared from the fleet? Could that someone in fact be our fifth?

Here's my take on it...

Neither Roslin nor Adama can possibly be the Fifth because they are (like Trinity and Neo, a single character) humanity. They (as one) represent all that is good and bad (between them, not one one nor one the other) in mankind.

Now, if I were to suspend my utter disbelief and suppose that a) Roslin was the person Caprica Six met in Caprica City before the attack and b) everyone is a Cylon, the humans having been exterminated many cycles earlierthen, yes, Roslin could be the ultimate sleeper. But she's as much a Cylon as Adama is.

Now, if the Fifth is someone we haven't met yet, who is a captive in the Cylon fleet, then who would meet the specific criteria we have laid out for them?

The Dirt

September 8th, 2008, 05:24 PM

I think that it's a tie between Adama, Roslin, and Baltar (maybe Starbuck). Only these three would have the impact on the viewers for a "big reveal" to work. However, each one will be a major let-down to someone, and will undoubtedly make someone unhappy. Here's why:

Roslin - but she's the dying leader! What's the point of her having cancer then if we can't even relate to that, because that whole time she wasn't even human.
Rebuttal - Look, Cylons are just like us! This explains the whole Hera blood transfusion thing a lot better, and explains the visions.

Adama - what? that makes almost all of the original characters from old-BSG Cylons?! Boomer, Tigh, Adama, Lee (half), Zak (half). He's been like the granddaddy of the fleet, and now he's not even human. So, this makes the whole reaction to Tigh being a Cylon completely moot. Lee is half Cylon? Where's the foreshadowing for that one?
Rebuttal - This explains why he was so adamant (purely conincidental usage of the word) on not having any networks on his ship, this also explains how both Tigh and Tyrol ended up on his ship. This could also be a good bookend into the Caprica series.

Baltar - he represents human flaws so well, and now he's a Cylon - that totally lets him off the hook. Not fair at all and diminishes his character to no end.
Rebuttal - explains the visions of Six, the brains, the survivability factor. This also brings him into a new role, and confirms D'Anna's statement that he "was right".

13th_Cylon

September 8th, 2008, 05:52 PM

Neakal

September 8th, 2008, 06:21 PM

look guys.....its Roslin...lets face it....Just like Jesus as God the Son had to die and be resurrected to save humanity.....Roslin as the cylon God and final cylon has to die and be resurrected to save well....cylonity......

It is at that moment of her ressurection that we hear Tigh say...."ur the fifth......"

If you are going to use Jesus or God as a metaphor for who the Final Cylon is, than Baltar would fit your description more than Roslin due to his relations with both the Cylons and God as well as due to appearance.

Plus we saw absolutely no evidence that the Cylon God is the Final Cylon. In fact, the one evidence we saw regarding the Final Five and their relations to God is that "the Five Priests worshipped the one whose name can not be spoken".

Few people have the ego to worship themselves.

13th_Cylon

September 8th, 2008, 06:35 PM

Baltar plays the role of the false prophet , the anti christ the one that looks and acts holy but is sent to deceive and is only interested in himself.

As Jesus was BOTH MAN and GOD..........then Roslin is both Cylon and Cylon god. In the new testament Jesus prayed to God......(Did he pray to himself?....was he worshipping himself???). In the same way Roslin can be both cylon (ie the final cylon) and Cylon God (ie cylon creator).

icklepants

September 8th, 2008, 06:44 PM

I think it's interesting that we may have two reveals, one being the Cylon God and where they came from as well as the final cylon. And we still have Kara Thrace being something or someone, who will eventually find peace, is she going to die? I think the most peaceful place is being the Hybrid aboard the basestar but that's a completely different theory...

As for Adama being the final cylon, it does hint that could be the case. The "your" fleet four, the fact he was prepared for the Cylon invasion due to non-networked computers, he didn't die from gunshot wounds that really should have killed him off, his blatant allowances for the XO that is Tigh, gathering the final four close to home, etc. Few questions, who commissioned Tory? And who authorised the mission to get Anders from Caprica? How did they really end up where they are.

I also think the final cylon has to be someone in Athena's cave thingy because projection is used to get all of them to Earth so they can see the star map. That leaves Billy (I think it was originally intended to be him, why Knightrider, why???) Adama, Apollo, Roslin, and Starbuck. No Gaius.

Neakal

September 8th, 2008, 09:10 PM

Baltar plays the role of the false prophet , the anti christ the one that looks and acts holy but is sent to deceive and is only interested in himself.

Baltar's storyline has been one of a guiltridden man trying to free himself from that guilt and, in the course, becoming a religious person and entering an effort of soul-cleansing. His prayer to the sick kid in the commune had no self-interested motives and neither did his confession to Roslin in "The Hub" which was, however morpha induced, was still something his soul needed to confess. The cult and the role of it is one we will see but I would not think him as a false prophet. If Head-Six is any indicator, he is the closest one to God, even more than the Cylons.

As Jesus was BOTH MAN and GOD..........then Roslin is both Cylon and Cylon god. In the new testament Jesus prayed to God......(Did he pray to himself?....was he worshipping himself???). In the same way Roslin can be both cylon (ie the final cylon) and Cylon God (ie cylon creator).

Thats one theology to look at. It can easily be claimed that Jesus was a human being who was one of God's many messengers in the Abrahamic tradtion and thus he (rightfully) worshipped God which fits Roslin and the position she took as the messenger of Gods. The fact that its Roslin, however, causes two problems: 1) While she did receive some images, she essentially boosted her position as a religious figure due to political needs which would make her the false prophet. 2) She was the messenger of the Gods. The ones the Cylon God (or the one-true-God) has been shown in opposition to. To me there is a logical misstep with the idea of a God following the guidance of the Gods that has been its theological opponnents all the while pretending to (or believing to) worship them.

Maybe similar to your point, one could use the "Jesus as the Son of God" idea but none of the characters truly fit that description unless you consider Starbuck's father (the "Pianist" who has been mentioned only once) a matter of mystery.

13th_Cylon

September 8th, 2008, 11:06 PM

Thank you Neakal for your very thorough reply. (your level of detail puts mine to shame !)

I can see your point re Baltar being a redeemed soul and yes we will see the final role of the cult. However I still see Baltar as a pawn being pushed around by (maybe who i think is the cylon God/Roslin) to carry out final preparation for the destruction of humanity. So from humanities point of view he is a false prophet (ie going against humanities "gods") sent by the other side (cylon god) to teach another doctrine. I theorise that "head 6" IS the cylon god and this is how Baltar is manoevred into position. (thus i am probably suggesting that the Cylon god manifests itself through both head 6 and Roslin)

Re Roslin and her political agenda. I can't see any conflict with her being a "true prophet" and playing politics. Jesus himself engaged the local rabbis and romans and after a 3 year political stint eventually had most of western europe, north and south america and plenty more populations following him.

In reference to the conflict of Roslin being a "messenger of the gods" but also being the "cylon god"....how better to hide oneself than to convince everyone you are on the opposite side. That would be a brillant step.

Keep in mind that in the BSG world there are 2 sides --> humanities gods and the one cylon god. We don't really know who the true God is....maybe its both, maybe its neither. So humanites "false prophet" is the Cylons "true prophet" and vice versa.

Thanks though for your comments....lets keep theorising and debating going strong !

The Dirt

September 8th, 2008, 11:53 PM

I'm more and more convinced that the FFC (Frakkin' Fifth Cylon) is:

Adama Sr.
This has little to do with evidence that we're seen in the show so far, and more with evidence that has been presented to us of what we are about to see.

1) Zarek becomes President - Adama would never allow this to happen, which means that he is not in command nor does he have public backing to stop Zarek from becoming president. I think that public opinion has turned against having an alliance with the Cylons, and Zarek used this issue to take control.

2) We see Adama bound in an airlock - there is a pretty good reason to airlock him if he is a Cylon and it is he who said that they are going to find Earth

3) We see Adama Jr. in a cell screaming "just kill me" - undoubtedly, if Adama Sr. is a Cylon, this makes Lee half Cylon, and a good reason to lock him up

4) Adama will be in the BSG movie but Roslin or Starbuck wont - this is a movie that is focusing on the Cylons and will not be shown prior to the finale, due to the fact that the Final Fifth will probably be out in the open. This movie includes most of the S7, Tyrol, Anders, Adama, as well as small roles by Tigh, and Tory. Excluding major characters like Starbuck, Lee and Roslin, but including Adama is kind of strange, don't you think? Also, there's no mention of Baltar being in the movie.

5) Tigh pulls a gun on Adama - Tigh would never willingly betray his friend, so this looks more like an attempted mercy killing.

6) The SDCC prieview included the following line spoken by Adama way back in Season 1 - "If I'm a Cylon, then you're all screwed." - Why recall such an old line, unless either trying to deliberately mislead the viewers again or foreshadowing that Adama will be acused and confirmed as the Fifth Cylon, thus easing the viewers into accepting that a little more.

7) Making Adama the Cylon wraps up a lot of loose threads - How did both Tigh and Tyrol end up on the only ship in the fleet that was vulnerable to the Cylon computer virus? How did Tory and Anders end up surviving the destruction and end up on the Galactica, unless there was some guiding hand? Adama is one lucky old man for having survived 2 shots to the chest. It also might be important to review how Anders and Adama act when they first met in LDYB2.

There are of course some holes in this theory and I can see at least 1 other explanation for several of my points. However, in light of what's been "spoilered" to us, I think this has to be it.

13th_Cylon

September 9th, 2008, 01:11 AM

The Dirt

September 9th, 2008, 01:20 AM

The redemption thing also gets in the way. However, your point can be explained away by making Adama a sleeper, which means that he was never fully turned off, like Tigh and the gang. He did manipulated events without realizing their true intent. Still, I don't like the thought of the Adama break-down scene being all for nothing. EJO seems to say that Adama never fully recovers from that moment on in the show.

icklepants

September 9th, 2008, 12:12 PM

The one thing that may not help the "Adama Sr is the Final Cylon" faction is that if Adama was responcible for gettting Tigh, Tyrol,Tory etc onto the Galactica then he must be aware that he is a cylon and active as a cylon. But we see him get very emotional and upset when he finds out that Tigh is a cylon.

Yes I thought of that too but then there was something about that scene that irked me. Adama is upset and proclaims "All those people.. I've sent to die". Huh? Are we really talking about the soldiers/hostages aboard the basestar? How can Tigh being a Cylon cause Adama to believe he has sent people to die. We already know Tigh has not caused deaths because of his Cylon nature, not being programmed like Boomer. Admittedly it could be him talking about Earth and the fact that Tigh's a Cylon could cause him to doubt everything he believes.

The thing is D'Anna was never meant to see the final five, that's a blip in the plan. Essentially Baltar should have and then possibly died, without the ability to download, no one would have known the faces of the five. I'm rambling but is it possible in the grand scheme of things that Saul's self-sacrifice and admittance to being a five was never supposed to happen. The grand scheme all along is bigger and Saul offering himself as a sacrifice messes it up. I'm going to stop know because I'm being boring.

genji2000

September 9th, 2008, 12:22 PM

Yes I thought of that too but then there was something about that scene that irked me. Adama is upset and proclaims "All those people.. I've sent to die". Huh?

I take that to mean all the pilots and marines he's committed to battle, and for what? If his XO and best friend can be a Cylon then what's it all been for?

Are we really talking about the soldiers/hostages aboard the basestar? How can Tigh being a Cylon cause Adama to believe he has sent people to die. We already know Tigh has not caused deaths because of his Cylon nature, not being programmed like Boomer. Admittedly it could be him talking about Earth and the fact that Tigh's a Cylon could cause him to doubt everything he believes.

The thing is D'Anna was never meant to see the final five, that's a blip in the plan. Essentially Baltar should have and then possibly died, without the ability to download, no one would have known the faces of the five. I'm rambling but is it possible in the grand scheme of things that Saul's self-sacrifice and admittance to being a five was never supposed to happen. The grand scheme all along is bigger and Saul offering himself as a sacrifice messes it up. I'm going to stop know because I'm being boring.

Don't worry about things like that. If you have an idea, post it. I'm not sure the repetition is that proscriptive. I'm not sure the Final Five are following paths like Baltar's and Kara's.

Wouter

September 9th, 2008, 03:04 PM

Anyway, since you bring it, and no one's answered it before, where did that Cavil in the Temple of Five come from? I don't think he travelled down with D'Anna and Baltar, did he? He didn't seem to be hanging around thme on their trek from the landing site to the temple. And he couldn't have already been down there. So where did he come from?
The way I remember/understand the episode, that Cavil was with Baltar and D'Anna and arrived together with them. D'Anna wasn't surprised he was there, in the temple.

NOT because the 5th is dead, or running freely around the baseship, but that the 5th is actually imprisoned by the cylons?

Ellen could work in such a scenario. If she didn't die from the poison, and Tigh and co didn't check her enough to notice and didn't dispose of the body in a way that would kill her, the Cylons could have found her. And may even have some reason to revive her (Cavil, at least...).

Chiefchess

September 10th, 2008, 01:03 AM

I would not mind if Adama Sr. is the fifth cylon. However, if he is, then there is no way he could have known about it. There is NO WAY Adama would sit in his quarters crying if he knew he was a cylon. If he knew in "Revelations", he would respond to D'Anna's hostage threats by calming revealing who he was, walk into an airlock, and quietly sing:

"I am cylon hear me roar,
As they throw me out the airlock door":lol:

Of course, if Adama doesn't know he is the fifth, then the fact that all the F5 cylons were saved can only be the result of a higher power or pure luck. That will be plausable but hard to explain at the end.

genji2000

September 10th, 2008, 01:41 AM

Of course, if Adama doesn't know he is the fifth, then the fact that all the F5 cylons were saved can only be the result of a higher power or pure luck. That will be plausable but hard to explain at the end.

That's true, but maybe The Plan will go some way to smoothing over the serendipitous locations of the Final Five at the time of the Cylon attack on the Colonies.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.

September 10th, 2008, 01:42 AM

Apparently, no one got the memo from RDM regarding that overrated, frakking Last Supper picture...

January will bring showers of tears for all you frakkers, and I'll be laughin' my ass off. (Yes, I even laugh at my own inane "Lee" theory now. How do you like 'dem apples, motherfrakkers?) :devil:

pagad

September 10th, 2008, 02:22 AM

God damnit if I don't just hate you so much at the moment Joe.

Wouter

September 10th, 2008, 05:51 AM

Apparently, no one got the memo from RDM regarding that overrated, frakking Last Supper picture...

I did get the memo on that one - and I'm not the only, here and elsewhere, some do keep his comments in mind.

I don't understand though why the majority of the BSG fans (of those that argue on messageboards about it, at least), especially on the scifi boards, continue to insist on people that are on the picture being the final Cylon, often not even taking the trouble to point out that they don't believe RDM (or to point out how they get around his words if they do believe him). It's like it is almost generally accepted that RDM must be lying about it, it's not even worth a mention anymore, it's apparently common knowledge: "RDM lies". I can understand having some doubts, but here people are just completely ignoring his words.

Bluce_Ree

September 10th, 2008, 07:59 AM

January will bring showers of tears for all you frakkers, and I'll be laughin' my ass off. (Yes, I even laugh at my own inane "Lee" theory now. How do you like 'dem apples, motherfrakkers?) :devil:

Play nice, Joe.

This forum is all about the half-assed speculation and theories. People are bound to be wildly off the mark but that's the fun of it. If you start taking the piss out of us it's kind of like going to a sports day event at a school for disabled children and shouting 'LOL! Mr No-Arms!' when some no-armed kid breaks the school's 100 meters record.

13th_Cylon

September 10th, 2008, 04:12 PM

Play nice, Joe.

This forum is all about the half-assed speculation and theories. People are bound to be wildly off the mark but that's the fun of it. If you start taking the piss out of us it's kind of like going to a sports day event at a school for disabled children and shouting 'LOL! Mr No-Arms!' when some no-armed kid breaks the school's 100 meters record.

DITTO !

and yes....RDM is lying to us just to frak with us......and......the final cylon IS in the last supper picture.....and yes it is Laura Roslin. :p

The Dirt

September 10th, 2008, 05:08 PM

The only semi-significant persons who are not in the photo AND that have been around since Season 1 AND are not dead are:

Tom Zarek
Cottle
Gaeta
Dee
Hotdog

Any one of those character, save, Zarek would make me say "wtf".

Wouter

September 10th, 2008, 05:43 PM

All of those are either in the fleet when D'Anna says "4" (another statement that should not be just ignored, no matter how untrustworthy D'Anna is in general), or were about to be executed by the Cylons (Hotdog).

You forgot Boomer in your list, and dead people should also be considered, obviously. There isn't too much else left, really (Seelix? Rather minor character).

Perhaps a case could be made that Kara may have been cloned and the Kara in the last supper picture is not the "right one", but then this begs the question where the original is supposed to be (still on Caprica, in the clinic?) and in that case her memories (mother who fought in the first Cylon war, and so) should be a fabrication.

Stairway

September 10th, 2008, 06:08 PM

Ah but here's the thing. D'Anna's been in a boxing facility for months, how could she know who had died recently? In that case it would have been someone that had died before "Rapture".

The Dirt

September 10th, 2008, 06:23 PM

And we are back at square one.

PS: I wonder why they call her Boomer.
PS 2: I wonder why they call him Tarney.

Chiefchess

September 11th, 2008, 01:15 AM

Wouter,

The reason why many fans still believe that a character in the infamous Last Supper photo could potentially be the fifth is because they, like myself, believe that BSG writers love to frak with our minds. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Laura "died", disapppeared for a short time on the photo, then reappeared in the seat reserved for the F5 cylon.

That said, I wouldn't mind if any of the characters in the photo is the F5 cylon, but I believe that it is one of three characters (personal opinion only)-Dee, Ellen, or Kat.

Time will tell if BSG writers are indeed fraking with our minds.

timbo

September 11th, 2008, 02:28 PM

Wouter,

The reason why many fans still believe that a character in the infamous Last Supper photo could potentially be the fifth is because they, like myself, believe that BSG writers love to frak with our minds.

Time will tell if BSG writers are indeed fraking with our minds.

I think you are right to emphasise this. The framework we have for all our theorising should have this as the number one point of reference. Every clue in the story has to be considered in the light of this. Now, I often find myself looking for the mindfrak rather than the final cylon. If more of us do this, I think we can whip up some pretty wild ideas, one of which might just be right.

13th_Cylon

September 11th, 2008, 08:55 PM

well do u wanna know when the fifth was switched on???? well do ya??? eh???

....crossroads PartII....as the fleet arrive at the nebula.......the cylon signal that causes a huge power failure in all computer systems including Roslins dirty frakking cylon brain. She reboots as does the fleets computer systems and she is now switched on. She now playacts all through the first half of season 4.

Aurora

September 12th, 2008, 12:57 AM

If you start taking the piss out of us it's kind of like going to a sports day event at a school for disabled children and shouting 'LOL! Mr No-Arms!' when some no-armed kid breaks the school's 100 meters record.

http://movementarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/arguing_on_the_internet.jpg

/obligatory

genji2000

September 12th, 2008, 12:15 PM

@ Aurora: that is possibly the most offensive thing I've ever seen on this or any forum. Well done.

Aurora

September 12th, 2008, 09:39 PM

@ Aurora: that is possibly the most offensive thing I've ever seen on this or any forum. Well done.

Aww...I feel accepted. :D

Gigit

October 2nd, 2008, 07:01 PM

In the Season 4.5 preview I saw online the other day (I will find it and post) you can hear Tigh telling somebody "You're the fifth," which would make a safe assumption that the 5th is currently turned off, unless he's just saying it as a statement vs telling the 5th who they are.

In terms of how this relates to Jesus etc, remember, Jesus did not know he was the Messiah until his baptisim day when God sent a dove which was the Holy Spirit, then a voice announced from heaven that Jesus is God's "beloved Son" and that God is "well pleased" with him.

Rosalin is the equivalent of Moses, so as much it seems it may be her, I do not feel she is the final. I think (maybe) the 5th is the Messiah, which could lead it to being one of the children recently born (baby Jesus) or somebody around 30 years of age (baptized Jesus.)

Here is the preview of 4.5

http://melancholygeek.wordpress.com/2008/06/14/battlestar-galactica-season-45-teaser-clip/

britboyj

October 3rd, 2008, 12:27 AM

I was almost better off not having seen it at all... :/

icklepants

October 7th, 2008, 05:08 PM

New alternative theory...

The fifth is not technically switched on, they are the signal. Kind of like in Third Rock when the stupid one was the communication beacon. The fifth when "switched on" communicates all the messages to the other four, the signal has to come from somewhere. Probably have no idea they're doing it, just like French Stewart.

I am only half joking.

Prolescum

October 7th, 2008, 06:15 PM

I'm sure it's not Tigh who says 'you're the fifth' in that video. Have another listen...
The fifth would have to be switched on; would you want some bloody God to be behind all the coincidences? That would be 'orrible.

icklepants

October 7th, 2008, 06:21 PM

Gigit

October 7th, 2008, 10:32 PM

I'm sure it's not Tigh who says 'you're the fifth' in that video. Have another listen...

Ok... *listens a few more times* I dunno, sounds like him to me.

Joe Beaudoin Jr.

October 7th, 2008, 11:07 PM

Ok... *listens a few more times* I dunno, sounds like him to me.

Yeah, it's Saul Tigh who says it. (I didn't think that anyone would question that, to be honest with ya all.)

The Dirt

October 8th, 2008, 01:06 AM

We're made to think that it's Saul, just like we're made to think that Kara was fraking Lee in KLGp1. When the camera pulls away, we'll know for certain that it's actually the final Cylon talking to itself in the mirror... in the third person.

genji2000

October 8th, 2008, 01:11 AM

"You're the Fifth, baby: lookin' good."

Prolescum

October 8th, 2008, 01:34 AM

Are you lookin' at the fifth?http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/84/Taxi_Driver_still_5.jpg

timbo

October 8th, 2008, 05:09 AM

Prol dude, that is brilliant.

....but you still need to find God.

Prolescum

October 8th, 2008, 07:16 AM

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Zeus--greek-mythology-687267_1024_768.jpg

The Dirt

October 8th, 2008, 12:01 PM

O-sum! God needs a tattoo on his arm. "I heart mom" would be appropriate.

Neakal

October 8th, 2008, 12:21 PM

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Zeus--greek-mythology-687267_1024_768.jpg

Thats not the God Timbo's looking for.

He was talking about this one

genji2000

October 8th, 2008, 12:25 PM

Prolescum's is way more impressive than that puny thing. I think Prole's is the god Timbo should be looking for.

The Dirt

October 8th, 2008, 12:29 PM

That God's got guns! I want to go to His gym.

Neakal

October 8th, 2008, 12:46 PM

Prolescum's is way more impressive than that puny thing. I think Prole's is the god Timbo should be looking for.

Agreed. No wonder why Zarek compared Adama to Prole's god :lol:

timbo

October 8th, 2008, 01:33 PM

Prole´s God has a light sabre cattle prod. That makes him the best.

I have no idea what my God looks like, I have never seen him. I just know there is something there. If I insist on putting a face on him, and inventing details about what he can or cant do, I am fucked. I think I am supposed to just listen, and let him show me who he is.

At least you guys are talking about, ......... even if it is just to take the piss out of me.

Ever since someone mentioned cattle prods, I cant stop thinking about them. Just the idea of them is hysterical. I really want one.

Prolescum

October 8th, 2008, 01:52 PM

@Timbo
Zeus provides.
Semen, usually, but you can't have everything.

pagad

October 8th, 2008, 01:54 PM

Prol dude, that is brilliant.

....but you still need to find God.

I've found him!

http://www.entertainmentrights.com/uploads/image_bank/asset_1594_hl.jpg

Took a lot of work, I can assure you.

Prolescum

October 8th, 2008, 02:16 PM

Thanks for spoiling it for everyone.
Three cheers for Pagad.

Neakal

October 8th, 2008, 02:17 PM

I have no idea what my God looks like, I have never seen him. I just know there is something there. If I insist on putting a face on him, and inventing details about what he can or cant do, I am fucked. I think I am supposed to just listen, and let him show me who he is.

Heres an excerpt from god-shop. Aside the two we have above, we got the following choices and even more! And if you call now, you can get a Pantheon in one delivery and at a reduced price! god-shop - Call now!:

Pnutmaster

October 8th, 2008, 02:28 PM

Yeah, it's Saul Tigh who says it. (I didn't think that anyone would question that, to be honest with ya all.)

Joe, good ole Joe. A question :D...Concerning the Final Cylon, naturally.

Will anyone be patting themselves on the back when the identity of the Fifth is revealed?

13th_Cylon

October 8th, 2008, 03:10 PM

Joe, good ole Joe. A question :D...Concerning the Final Cylon, naturally.

Will anyone be patting themselves on the back when the identity of the Fifth is revealed?

2 things can happen here ......

(1) He doesnt give an answer and shows he is full of BS regarding BSG future knowledge

or

(2) He answers and his bosses kick his ass out onto the road.

Its best not to ask those questions. It puts people in awkward situations

Pnutmaster

October 8th, 2008, 04:21 PM

2 things can happen here ......

(1) He doesnt give an answer and shows he is full of BS regarding BSG future knowledge

or

(2) He answers and his bosses kick his ass out onto the road.

Its best not to ask those questions. It puts people in awkward situations

It's a relatively innocent question. I'm just wondering if ANYONE on the vast expanse of the internets has correctly guessed who the Final Cylon is.

Stairway

October 8th, 2008, 04:41 PM

I'd love to see 5th say to the four "So you guys ready to get started now?" and not realizing they just found out who they were. Hilarious.

We're made to think that it's Saul, just like we're made to think that Kara was fraking Lee in KLGp1. When the camera pulls away, we'll know for certain that it's actually the final Cylon talking to itself in the mirror... in the third person.

I thought it was so obvious it was Lee at first so in my world she frakked them both.:D Also explains why he was so mad later in the episode.

icklepants

October 8th, 2008, 06:00 PM

Yeah, it's Saul Tigh who says it. (I didn't think that anyone would question that, to be honest with ya all.)

Okay I'm questioning away.

first time I heard it I thought defo a bloke, possibly Anders but didn't really pay any attention. Now I cannot make it sound like Tigh at all and although I accept that you may know it is him saying it, have you re-listened to the trailer recently? I just wondered if it had been addled with, not that I would have a clue why anyone would do that...

13th_Cylon

October 9th, 2008, 03:23 AM

It's a relatively innocent question. I'm just wondering if ANYONE on the vast expanse of the internets has correctly guessed who the Final Cylon is.

Its ok....just teasing really.....Genji always makes me out as the bad guy so i was just playing the role.

Re Saul saying the "so ur the fifth" i thought it was someone else until i played it a few times then i felt it was him. He doesnt sound to emotional so its got to be someone boring like boomer.

Neakal

October 9th, 2008, 05:33 AM

Re Saul saying the "so ur the fifth" i thought it was someone else until i played it a few times then i felt it was him. He doesnt sound to emotional so its got to be someone boring like boomer.

Really? I (and others) had the impression that Saul's voice was "dripping with emotion" in that trailer

Prolescum

October 9th, 2008, 10:21 AM

If I may cut in here, I think it's Cavil's voice and he's talking to another cylon...

Wouter

October 9th, 2008, 02:21 PM

Really? I (and others) had the impression that Saul's voice was "dripping with emotion" in that trailer
I have the same impression. It's a bit of a problem for the Boomer option, actually, as I don't see Boomer meeting Tigh any time soon (allthough he could well be as emotional for Boomer as for, say, Adama or Ellen, because of the bad blood between them).

We're missing context though, so we can't conclude much.

13th_Cylon

October 9th, 2008, 03:16 PM

re sauls emotion.

Sorry guys i must be out of touch my my emotions.....I spose i meant he is not yelling and screaming it in anger.

Jamie

October 9th, 2008, 03:34 PM

I thought he was saying it more in shock than anything. Just what I would expect if you suddenly realise who the fifth is. We don't even know if that line is the fifth reveal line so we can't take much from the fact that it is Tigh (or not Tigh) saying it unfortunately.

genji2000

October 10th, 2008, 02:10 PM

If I may cut in here... he's talking to another cylon...

I agree.

genji2000

October 30th, 2008, 05:07 PM

MHall

October 30th, 2008, 05:50 PM

Major spoiler (information about the Final Cylon, but not the name of the Final Cylon):

The Fifth is dead, or so says CongoRedJr (http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2316764&st=20&p=5715413&#entry5715413).

My speculation... With Tigh saying "You're the fifth," the only dead person he would say that to is Ellen. However, if it turns out to be Ellen, I will be skeptical, because I suspect she is just an older Six... same model. That would still leave one model unaccounted for. This might explain why there are some indications that there could be two Final Cylon reveals: one in the next episode, and one much later.

Pnutmaster

October 30th, 2008, 06:24 PM

Who is CongoRedJr? lol

Ha, TheVarrior's pushed the "Ellen is an older Six" theory for some time now. If "Head Ellen" is indeed one of the Head characters, I can see how her identity and Caprica Six's pregnancy fit into "God's Plan".

EDIT: Maybe, just maybe this was intended from the beginning. I watched a couple minutes of Tigh me Up, Tigh me Down--Baltar having virtual sexytime with Head Six, and Ellen arriving in the Raptor. Let's compare two shots and decide if they have an ulterior purpose!

Uno (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mplayerc200810301845170ko9.jpg)

Dos (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mplayerc200810301846157xo4.jpg)

MHall

October 30th, 2008, 06:41 PM

Hofner1962

October 30th, 2008, 08:47 PM

Wow, this thread has covered a lot of ground

I thought he was saying it more in shock than anything. Just what I would expect if you suddenly realise who the fifth is. We don't even know if that line is the fifth reveal line so we can't take much from the fact that it is Tigh (or not Tigh) saying it unfortunately.

I think it is Tigh as well. Shock or maybe just realization. I do believe he is saying it to another cylon.

I thought RDM said the F5 were fundamentally different and don't download. If that is true then Boomer can not be one of the F5. Then again - RDM could be lying. Then again is he always lying or is he sometimes lying? The problem is "not that he lies, but rather he twists everything into half-truths and masks fiction with the veneer of truth." :)

I think D'Anna is apologizing to Tigh. Since he was in captivity on New Caprica and the focus of much cylon attention she would definitely know who he was. I think the months of torture and pulling out his eye and showing it to him would warrant the heart felt "I'm sorry, I didn't know" much more than pointing a gun a Sanders for a couple of seconds.

I don't really buy that it the one getting apologized to is the fifth or dead. How many humans did D'Anna actually kill up close. She would have to know for a fact at that point that this person was dead and I think she would have to be personally responsible. If it is someone who died as part of the original attack or any of the subsequent engagements with the fleet then why wouldn't the apology be aimed at all of them.

Just some thoughts - probably most are retreads - am just trying to catch up on this forum.

Batman316

October 30th, 2008, 11:22 PM

am just trying to catch up on this forum.

keep trying ;)

*ponders the line this topic has taken...

1- Dunno why what Deanna saw has anything to do with the question of if the Final Five is turned on...

It has to be Saul unless there is a 'flashback' which shows her being particularly nasty to one of the others.

Now to the question: Is the FF switched on?

Ofcourse he/she/it is.

“And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering”

Ok so how do I interpret this line?

“And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light"

The Fifth is awake, hidden in the subconscious mind of (insert random name). He/she/it acts on impulse, gut feelings, initution, never doubting it's humanity until sometime in S4.5 the truth becomes undeniable.

"hungry for redemption"

He is a Cylon and partialy responsible for the demise of humanity. This is the redemption it hungers for. To make everything right, to restore humanity, to forgive himself. He 'remembers' all the little things he has done in the past. (maybe even the subconscious stuff) They might be something as minor as altering a jump co-ord.... hell it could explain the 'note' Adama finds at the end of the mini saying that there are only 12 models.

"that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering”

Something big has to happen... Deus Ex Machina..... everyone is in pain, the humans, the cylons, the shit has litterally hit the fan and only the Final Cylon can give us a nice shiney ending to this grand space opera.

Sooo back to the topic: Is the Fifth switched on?

Yes, in that 'backdoor Boomer Season 1' type way. If not, then what's the point of him at all?

For the record my money is on Gaeta and his pretty singing voice. He's the only one who's has the opportunity for a 'flashback' that would cover the ground thats needed

Wouter

October 31st, 2008, 05:33 PM

CongoRedJr is someone on Sciffy who claims to have a source who worked on the show. I believe he is legit, because he said some things that later reliable spoilers confirmed. However, he has not seen any of the upcoming episodes.
CongoRedJr very seldom gives concrete spoilers; he's often giving vague descriptions that can be interpreted in different ways, and he himself claims he is unsure about his information. Half or even all of it could be wrong, he wrote himself. I've yet to see a spoiler or spoilery description of him become validated by other sources or by the show.

This time around, he did give a couple of "hard" spoilers (whited out text, on scifi forum), and one of those has been contradicted by no less than 3 different sources, including by RDM on an official podcast.

So, I regard his "spoilers" as pure speculation, until he proves to be reliable.

The spoilers he did give was that Boomer and Cavil died on the hub, and Galactica wouldn't make it to the finish. The latter seems like a fairly safe prediction and it cannot be checked. About the former though, RDM said on the podcast of "the hub" that she did survive, and both Grace Park and Michael Taylor have confirmed in interviews that Boomer has scenes in S4.5.

Wouter

October 31st, 2008, 05:38 PM

keep trying ;)
1- Dunno why what Deanna saw has anything to do with the question of if the Final Five is turned on...

It has to be Saul unless there is a 'flashback' which shows her being particularly nasty to one of the others.

D'Anna was not the one who took Tigh's eye; that was a Doral (deleted scene). And it was a Cavil shown interrogating him. If you want one of the penultimate four to be the one she apologised to, then Anders makes plenty of sense: she, very personally, this particular 3, tried to kill him and only didn't succeed because fellow Cylons stopped her. That kinda worth an "ooops" don't you think?

Lucy Lawless said in an interview that she was pretty sure that D'Anna apologised to the unrevealed Cylon, though.

genji2000

October 31st, 2008, 05:50 PM

There are three points I'd make about CongoRedJr: His posting method is fairly convincing: he doesn't make a lot of them, he doesn't get involved in deep theoretical discussions; he dips in now and then, which on face value supports his claim that he knows someone (he often says he considers them "a friend", as opposed to the "source" that the likes of Michael Hinman quote, which may mean schmoozing lighting engineers and key grips over lunch). He is at pains to point out that in his conversations with his "friend" he doesn't take notes and much of it should be taken as potentially faulty memory, or his friend sometimes winding him up. He doesn't outright say that anything is fact, though he may stress things that he's sure he got right. He's clearly not attention-seeking, if only because of his avoidance of involved discussion.
So his "spoilers" should be taken as he describes them - with a pinch of salt.

For myself, I rather read his vague hints and potential speculation than the stark, outright imagination-killing facts of Aaron Douglas or Michael Hinman, who (especially the latter) seem intent on wrecking enjoyment. Spoilers (to me) should be titillating and fun, and I think CongoRedJr maintains that spirit. The stark facts will come soon enough, but at this point I think speculation is more fulfilling.

But that's just me.

D'Anna was not the one who took Tigh's eye; that was a Doral (deleted scene). And it was a Cavil shown interrogating him. If you want one of the penultimate four to be the one she apologised to, then Anders makes plenty of sense: she, very personally, this particular 3, tried to kill him and only didn't succeed because fellow Cylons stopped her. That kinda worth an "ooops" don't you think?

Lucy Lawless said in an interview that she was pretty sure that D'Anna apologised to the unrevealed Cylon, though.

Of the Watchtower/Dylan/penultimate four I'd have to go with Tigh, D'Anna asking forgiveness on behalf of the Cylons, but I think Wouter's hint on the Fifth is more realistic.

Wouter

October 31st, 2008, 06:16 PM

Pnutmaster

October 31st, 2008, 07:32 PM

About D'Anna: she didn't seem be asking forgiveness "on behalf of the Cylons". She said "You? Forgive me, I had no idea". Seems personal, to me. And she's surprised. Why would Tigh be more surprising than, say, Tyrol? Leave alone Anders, which she actually met, not suspecting anything?

If D'Anna is addressing the Final Cylon, and the Final Cylon is Boomer (:p), why would she say, "I had no idea". This sounds very much like she's reassuring a human that she, i.e., one of the Cylons, did not know this person was one of the Final Five.

Until Baltar and Roslin buzzed about the Final Five, I don't think any of the humans (except Athena, who only divulges secrets on demand) knew the Cylons were in the dark about five of their own. During their occupation of New Caprica, perhaps the Cylons heard whisper of this. Hence, D'Anna's need to reassure the human that she had no idea.

Wouter

October 31st, 2008, 07:39 PM

If D'Anna is addressing the Final Cylon, and the Final Cylon is Boomer (:p), why would she say, "I had no idea". This sounds very much like she's reassuring a human that she, i.e., one of the Cylons, did not know this person was one of the Final Five.
We know that (at least :p ) 4 of the 5 final Cylons were supposed to be humans; she did not reassure at least 3 of those, and very probably 4. Nor was she terribly surprised (allthough she did give a couple of startled looks - for Anders and Tigh, I suppose) by 4 of the 5, at most only one of them warranted a surprised "you!??", apparently.

My view on how she could be addressing Boomer here: D'Anna was surprised because the final cylon was hidden in plain sight, right under her nose, and she had been working to get her - precious - fifth boxed. Oops. :(

genji2000

November 1st, 2008, 05:33 AM

Michael Hinman's spoilers have a good track record though, IIRC. Spoilers should be accurate, whether they're "stark facts" or only suggestive. And even factual spoilers can feed imagination - Aaron's spoilers lead to much speculation about what it means and how it is possible (and if it makes sense or not). IMO it's better to speculate in the direction the actual show is going (as far as you know, through spoilers) rather than building your fancy own theories, only to have the actual show go in a completely different direction.

For maximum possibilities of speculation, you're better off avoiding spoilers alltogether, anyway (even CongoRedJrs info, accurate or not, will change your way of thinking - his initial post killed the Boomer theory stone dead, for example - until he dropped his whited text bombshell). Sites like SyFyportal are for those who want spoilers.

About D'Anna: she didn't seem be asking forgiveness "on behalf of the Cylons". She said "You? Forgive me, I had no idea". Seems personal, to me. And she's surprised. Why would Tigh be more surprising than, say, Tyrol? Leave alone Anders, which she actually met, not suspecting anything?

Er... total climbdown time. I've skimmed over CongoRedJr's total output on scifi.com and historically he has been something of a wind-up merchant. I think you're probably right about his posts.

Yes - I take your point about spoilers. My irritation comes from that Michael Hinman article, which has since been edited. Originally it said something along the lines of "you do the acting, Aaron, I do the spoilers; stay off my patch". That sentiment has been removed now and the article reads more like a confirmation of Douglas' spoilers, although the specific spoiler is still in there.

I think you're right about the personal touch in D'Anna's reaction, too, mainly because she's so self-centred.

MHall

November 1st, 2008, 06:00 AM

CongoRedJr very seldom gives concrete spoilers; he's often giving vague descriptions that can be interpreted in different ways, and he himself claims he is unsure about his information. Half or even all of it could be wrong, he wrote himself. I've yet to see a spoiler or spoilery description of him become validated by other sources or by the show.
Referring to the planet in Revelations, CongoRedJr said:

"Not Earth, it's another sign post, like Algae planet and Kobol."

---
I consider this confirmed by Aaron Douglas' later statement:

Q. Tell me this. Do we ever get to see the Cylon homeworld?
AARON DOUGLAS: You did at the end of the middle of season four.
Q. (pause) Wow! Really? You’re saying Earth is the Cylon homeworld?
AD: Earth, in the scriptures, is the Cylon homeworld. Yeah, they say they found evidence, they found other people, and they’re all Cylon. Or they found bones and stuff, scattered all around, and they’re Cylon.
Q. Wow!
AD: Did you not listen to that – did you not watch that?
Q. That was not made clear! Yeah, I missed that! Yeah! I saw everybody standing around …
AD: Watch the last 10 minutes. They say, when they’re digging in the, all that kind of stuff.
Q. The last thing they showed was everybody looking pissed because everything looks destroyed. I didn’t get that they were pissed because everything was Cylon. Everything was destroyed because there was like a Cylon civil war that caused them to go forth and …
AD: Tune in and watch.

---
It's Aaron's qualification, "in the scriptures," that makes me believe he said the same thing as CongoRedJr. You are free to interpret it differently.

And I also consider this fact confirmed by some of my research/posts. That is, it has already been explicitly revealed in the show. I guess you could argue that CongoRedJr was simply paying attention to the show, but I doubt it.