Some speculations

[eirikr]

Someone may be able to shoot my ideas down, but here goes.

It seems like someone would have to travel back in time for all this to make sense. Humans had to get to Kobol somehow, so it makes sense to me that the Galactica would move them there.

I think the "storm" that Starbuck went into is a wormhole that could transport someone through time, BUT the time difference is increasing - the farther in the 'future' someone enters the wormhole the farther back in time they are transported.

I have a whole convoluted "theory of everything bsg" that revolves around this idea.

[Jason1975]

Welcome eirikr to this forum.

Personally, I would like it if you did share with us your convoluted "theory of everything bsg". One of my ideas does contain time travel with the FTL engines. However, it is not refined and has holes. That is why I have other ideas that just has rough idea has my time travel idea.

[Joe E Dangerously]

While we are talking about theories of everything... I was just wondering... Why does it seem so damned important to the internet fans that A: BSG takes place in the future, (even from before the mini) and B: that life began on Earth? I have noticed that people OVERWHELMINGLY percieve Star Wars to be the future, so I do think this is similar (space. future. scifi. no past. future. scifi equals future. me no like to think.) The opening phrase of EVERY Star Wars flick seems to have no impact on these goobers. (space. future. scifi. me no like to read.) The Earth theory does hold some water, but I have noticed that NOBODY wants Kobol to be the true birthplace of mankind. Just to be clear, I am of the opinion that they will leave the timeframe open to interpretation, but here's why I prefer to think we are in the ancient past: 1: The aesthetic of these peoples' world seems to be indicative that my theory is valid (the turkish rugs, the statues in Adama's quarters, etc.) 2: All the names on the show are either from the original show or an index of ancient names. 3: The music in the show is meant to be "ancient." (interview w/ Richard Gibbs) 4: The 13th Tribe went to Earth 4,000 years ago. The human race has been here for a lot longer than 4,000 years (even those "creationism" whackos acknowledge this point.) 5: The colonials believe in the ancient Gods. Monothiesm is just starting to take hold; just like happend millenia ago. This all may be dead wrong, but why does everybody seem to cling to these theories like newborn babies? By the way, the Kobolian crypt and ancient Colonial flags contain clues to the path to Earth, so it would seem that somehow, there was a millenia-long dark age on Earth quite some time ago after the Kobol-Earth travels by Pythia ended. Is this the reason? Is it that hard to except that we may have destroyed ourselves before? Or is it just "Space. Future. Scifi. End of story?"

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

It is ingrained in most people's heads, thanks to the likes of Buck Rogers, Star Trek, and other futuristic SF movies, that SF shows happen in the future. Whether, like back in the 60s and 70s, it'd be a future 1999 or whatever, I think people just have it in their head that "oh, aliens and space travel = future".

Secondly, RDM did tackle the question, in one of his blogs early on, that the show would deal with the scientific fact that life began on Earth, which lead credence to the whole idea that Kobol wasn't the birthplace of mankind.

Although you still bring up a lot of interesting points that do merit serious consideration.

[The Dirt]

Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away lived a bunch of 70s mop-top, hippie looking, bell bottom wearing, disco dancing, white boy (plus Lando) rebels fighting the British empire and their evil Death Star. Basically, there is no way that Star Wars is set in the future or in any sort of way related to our universe. I mean... where the hell is the force right now??? So, that doesn't make any sense. However, it makes sense to put BSG in the future. I think that placing it in the past puts it in "hokey origination theory" category. So, next time that you are approached by a pushy fundamentalist Christian or Scientologist, challenge their beliefs by showing them the BSG miniseries, and explain that this is how life began on Earth. RDM is much more creative than L. Ron Hubbard, and no alien souls had to be sacrificed in volcanoes in the process, so everyone wins!

[eirikr]

While we are talking about theories of everything... I was just wondering... Why does it seem so damned important to the internet fans that A: BSG takes place in the future, (even from before the mini) and B: that life began on Earth? I have noticed that people OVERWHELMINGLY percieve Star Wars to be the future, so I do think this is similar (space. future. scifi. no past. future. scifi equals future. me no like to think.) The opening phrase of EVERY Star Wars flick seems to have no impact on these goobers. (space. future. scifi. me no like to read.) The Earth theory does hold some water, but I have noticed that NOBODY wants Kobol to be the true birthplace of mankind. Just to be clear, I am of the opinion that they will leave the timeframe open to interpretation, but here's why I prefer to think we are in the ancient past: 1: The aesthetic of these peoples' world seems to be indicative that my theory is valid (the turkish rugs, the statues in Adama's quarters, etc.) 2: All the names on the show are either from the original show or an index of ancient names. 3: The music in the show is meant to be "ancient." (interview w/ Richard Gibbs) 4: The 13th Tribe went to Earth 4,000 years ago. The human race has been here for a lot longer than 4,000 years (even those "creationism" whackos acknowledge this point.) 5: The colonials believe in the ancient Gods. Monothiesm is just starting to take hold; just like happend millenia ago. This all may be dead wrong, but why does everybody seem to cling to these theories like newborn babies? By the way, the Kobolian crypt and ancient Colonial flags contain clues to the path to Earth, so it would seem that somehow, there was a millenia-long dark age on Earth quite some time ago after the Kobol-Earth travels by Pythia ended. Is this the reason? Is it that hard to except that we may have destroyed ourselves before? Or is it just "Space. Future. Scifi. End of story?"

To answer point A. I don't know that BSG must take place in the future, but the Colonials are more technologically advanced than we are at present, so it seems logical. Unless a group of humans from ancient Greece were somehow transported to another planet by aliens, skipped over the dark ages, and advanced much faster than we have here on earth. If a technologically advanced civilization had existed before now there would be some evidence.

For B. Life, or at least human life, began on Earth. If humans migrated to, or were brought to, Earth in the past we wouldn't be genetically related to other species.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

To answer point A. I don't know that BSG must take place in the future, but the Colonials are more technologically advanced than we are at present, so it seems logical. Unless a group of humans from ancient Greece were somehow transported to another planet by aliens, skipped over the dark ages, and advanced much faster than we have here on earth. If a technologically advanced civilization had existed before now there would be some evidence.

True. However, we have to consider the "Lords of Kobol". The Cylons apparently know "more about [the Colonials'] religion" than the Colonials do, at least according to Athena. Of course, that plot point seems to have been utterly abandoned after "Home, Part II" (yeah, I've been jumping around watching the series here and there, for research).

For B. Life, or at least human life, began on Earth. If humans migrated to, or were brought to, Earth in the past we wouldn't be genetically related to other species.

Not if those other species were brought with the humans.

[pagad]

Not if those other species were brought with the humans.

And the fossil record?

[eirikr]

Not if those other species were brought with the humans.

I don't think that would be very plausible. Every bacteria, plant, animal, etc. on earth derives from a single common ancestor about 5 billion years ago. We share about 40 % of our DNA with yeast and bacteria, so everything came from the same source. Now, whether the original "life" that was in the primordial goo came from space or not is an open question, but all that followed isn't.

I think we've actually been spoiled by bad sci-fi over the years which I hope doesn't happen with BSG.

[RickDekkard]

Hi to all, this is my first post and I have a theory to share with you.

After reading some stuff about ancient greek religion, I see BSG as a 'never ending story'. This is, when the series will come to the end, it will be a first step in the colonial history.

Here we go, I think that in some moment in the future, Apollo will travel to the past and try to alert to the people for the events that are coming (and those we have seen in the series), this is done by the Pythia's oracle, writting the famous book, trying to avoid the catastrophic events that provokes the exodus, Earth destroyed and so on. It's clear that he didn't achieve success, and the history repeats again, and again....

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia

In this link one can read that the Pythia prophecies were inspired by Apollo. Yes, this is only an idea and poorly fundamented, but I felt that I needed to share with you. What do you think about?

(sorry for the English ;))

[genji2000]

Hi Rick, welcome to the forum.

We are led to believe that there is a never-ending cycle in the BSG universe, the cycle of time (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Sacred_Scrolls#The_Cycle_of_Time), but we are in a quandary at the moment as to whether this story describes the breaking of the cycle or not. If not then we can speculate that the surviving characters at the end of the show will settle on a planet that they will name Kobol and begin the human race again, initially governed by twelve 'Lords of Kobol' (and potentially a thirteenth later).

I don't believe that time-travel exists in the show. We have seen Kara Thrace visit her mother on her death bed, and we know her mother died some years earlier, and we are led to believe Kara visited Earth possibly some time in its past judging by the differences in its appearance (Crossroads pt.2 vs. Revelations), but all of that may have happened only in Kara's mind at the point of her 'death', or whatever she experienced in Maelstrom).

'Apollo' is just Lee's callsign, as you know, and in my opinion there is no connection between him and the original Lord of Kobol, though he may be set up to be one of the new Lords of Kobol in the next cycle, likewise Athena and Hera.

However, I think you make an interesting point regarding Pythia's writings - that they may have been set down in an attempt to break the cycle when the time comes. The purpose of the Final Five may be something similar.

[icklepants]

I'm seeing if I can liven up an old thread rather than start a new one.

This concept of the time cycle, that we are in the midst of a continuous loop is a possibility given that the human race is essentially dying out. If they are put on a loop, the human race is preserved for infinity. The idea is they all travel back to the past to find the startings of humanity in order to grow as a race again but then find that they are the starts of humanity itself. Returning to Kobol, this would set up the idea that the 12 lords of Kobol would leave to go to Earth (Cylons, as they would never be truly accepted on the planet). They take Hera with them and that's what causes Athena to throw herself to her death. So Athena = Athena. All the skulls and bones are actually their own from a great battle that happens when they arrive there (walking across their own graves, ewww) and every prediction in the book of pythia is made by someone like Roslin. The reason it can predict the truth so accurately is because they have all experienced it before.

Five of the Cylons create the temple on the algae planet, Tigh, etc. as they don't see themselves as the same as the other more mechanical ones. Actually how many cylon/hybrids do we have now that aren't the doral, Al from Quantum leap or Doctor simon? There's the final four, D'anna, 8, 6, Leoben, nicky, Hera and baby Saul6. Just add your fifth and we're back up to the 12 strangely. I digress.

Head characters could be a hangover from looping, the problem with timelines coinciding, their future self fusing with their past selves. No I don't like that either, wouldn't explain why head characters only came into existance post-apocolytica. I would like to say though that projection does seem to be a form of time travel, to go back to a place previously experienced.

There are quite a few things that would be left completely unexplained but I for one think this could be some semblence of an idea.

I am now completely unhappy with this idea remembering that the Gods and humans lived in harmony together for two thousand years beforehand.

[Wouter]

Hi Rick, welcome to the forum.

We are led to believe that there is a never-ending cycle in the BSG universe, the cycle of time (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Sacred_Scrolls#The_Cycle_of_Time),
Is there? IIRC it was mainly Leoben who is of the opinion there is such a cycle. It is not necessarily so that he, and any other characters that may have similar ideas (Head-6?), are correct. Or if they are correct, what they mean may not be what we think.

[genji2000]

Is there? IIRC it was mainly Leoben who is of the opinion there is such a cycle. It is not necessarily so that he, and any other characters that may have similar ideas (Head-6?), are correct. Or if they are correct, what they mean may not be what we think.

Roslin's also of this opinion, which comes from the Pythian scrolls, which is where the Cylons got it, I think, although they've reinterpreted it in light of their own religion.

It's a while since I made that post and some things have come to light which make a reinterpretation necessary...

For example, the SFX spoiler, which notes the interest of the Final Five in the cycle of creation and destruction. With that in mind I think the cycle of time is not a Matrix-type reload but a repetition of certain events set in a linear progression of time.

So, to answer your question, yes - the cycle of time, "all this has happened before", the purpose and existence of the Final Five, the apocalypse all lead us to believe there is an ongoing cycle in the BSG universe.

It's funny you picked up on that comment though. When the thread was resurrected earlier I considered addressing my description of the cycle but didn't think I could without reference to spoilers so I thought I'd just let you do it.

[icklepants]

Surely the concept of a linear cycle of time is in itself a completely bizarre concept. I have difficulty in seeing how it could be explained and still making sense, why and how could a circle of time exist and be predicted? At least with the concept of time travel and a looping effect, the foretold happenings are explained, how else could they if its this ongoing saga throughout time? I'm having difficulty picking my words on this, but without the explanation fo God deciding the future on a pre-destined plan, I can't see how the Battlestar could be explained.

[genji2000]

Surely the concept of a linear cycle of time is in itself a completely bizarre concept.

I should say so. Where did you read that? :)

That's not what I meant. In the real world we progress along a linear path of time, but we have cycles going on all around us (day and night, the seasons, birth and death). I said "a repetition of certain events set in a linear progression of time". What contradicts this is that the humans seem to forget everything that's happened before, never to learn from their mistakes, and to repeat the same cycle over and over, which seems to indicate a complete reset.

I have difficulty in seeing how it could be explained and still making sense, why and how could a circle of time exist and be predicted? At least with the concept of time travel and a looping effect, the foretold happenings are explained, how else could they if its this ongoing saga throughout time? I'm having difficulty picking my words on this, but without the explanation fo God deciding the future on a pre-destined plan, I can't see how the Battlestar could be explained.

I don't think the show will go all-out and say that god has mapped out the future in a deterministic way, and we have no choice but to follow that path. I think some characters will be able to interpret events in that way, and others will see it as man's natural reaction to events (e.g. why make the Cylons at all? Are we just bone idle and can't be bothered building walls or collecting the trash, or even fighting our own wars any more, or do we have an inherent desire to create a new form of life and emulate 'god'?).

I don't think the cycle of time can be predicted in all its infinitesimal detail, but the broad strokes of repetition are there for those who want to to see.

[icklepants]

The infinitesimal detail is the issue though!

Even when it happened when they arrived on the algae planet, they talked about the likelihood of turning up there at the same time as the Cylons and just before the Sun went Supernova. The chances of that heppening and them arriving at the temple just in time are actually beyond comprehension. This is an example of how I find the linear concept unlikely to near impossible without there being some higher being pulling the strings. That would point to God being revealed at the end of the series as the reason behind everything, or wait a sec, maybe it's Q... ;)

[genji2000]

The infinitesimal detail is the issue though!

Even when it happened when they arrived on the algae planet, they talked about the likelihood of turning up there at the same time as the Cylons and just before the Sun went Supernova. The chances of that heppening and them arriving at the temple just in time are actually beyond comprehension. This is an example of how I find the linear concept unlikely to near impossible without there being some higher being pulling the strings. That would point to God being revealed at the end of the series as the reason behind everything, or wait a sec, maybe it's Q... ;)

Basically, the events that Pythia wrote about occurred two to four thousand years ago. What's happening now can be viewed as a repetition of those events. Some might call it coincidence, some might call it inevitability, some might say it's god's plan - reliving your existence over and over until you get it right, like a buddhist groundhog. To reference our revered sage Timbo, like the cycle of abuse where an abused child often grows up and abuses his or her own children, we're condemned to repeat the actions of our forebears, but this doesn't necessarily mean going back to Kobol and being governed by twelve Greek gods. The cycle is more about the nature of man and his actions in whatever situation he finds himself. The show might end up being about not reverting to type, not doing what we always do, which may be why we're being told this story and not the one that occurred two thousand years ago.

[timbo]

Surely the concept of a linear cycle of time is in itself a completely bizarre concept. I have difficulty in seeing how it could be explained and still making sense, why and how could a circle of time exist and be predicted? At least with the concept of time travel and a looping effect, the foretold happenings are explained, how else could they if its this ongoing saga throughout time? I'm having difficulty picking my words on this, but without the explanation fo God deciding the future on a pre-destined plan, I can't see how the Battlestar could be explained.

I don´t think it ia cycle of time. It is a cycle of events occurring over time. Perhaps the predestined thing is more to do with human nature always leading to destruction.

[Wouter]

I don´t think it ia cycle of time. It is a cycle of events occurring over time. Perhaps the predestined thing is more to do with human nature always leading to destruction.
That ("history repeats itself") certainly sounds more reasonable to me than a literal cycle of time a la Robert Jordan's "Wheel of time". It's a fine concept in such a work, but in a more naturalistic SF series it seems a bit too fantasy-ish.

[genji2000]

I don´t think it ia cycle of time. It is a cycle of events occurring over time. Perhaps the predestined thing is more to do with human nature always leading to destruction.
That ("history repeats itself") certainly sounds more reasonable to me than a literal cycle of time a la Robert Jordan's "Wheel of time". It's a fine concept in such a work, but in a more naturalistic SF series it seems a bit too fantasy-ish.

That's what I said! Woo-hoo! I am here you know. You two just get off on each other like I never paid obeisance to both of your theories! It's fine by me. :lol:

[The Dirt]

I agree with Wouter and Timbo. We should remember Leoben's speech to Kara in Flesh and Blood where he says that all of this has happened before, but last time maybe he was the interrogator, and she was the prisoner; that events stay the same but the players change. This, to me, sounds like what the two amigos are saying (and I think Genji mentioned it).

[genji2000]

I agree with Wouter and Timbo.

Er, hello? I'm not posting in invisible you know. I am, despite reports to the contrary, here.

[The Dirt]

Jeez, way to steal the spotlight from the true originators of the theory. I gave you an honorable mention in the end there.

[icklepants]

Well I think you're all blemin wrong ;)

likelihood of turning up at the algae planet just in time to catch the super nova? Our survey says "eh uhh". Only way that could have happened is if the people who set up the temple knew exactly when the fleet and cylons were coming. And that takes some form of amazing foresight or the distinct possibility that there's a loop and they have seen both sides of it. Linear cycles, eh? Next it'll be square rectangles and we'll all be done for.

Any thought that it's a big computer game and Starbuck will wake up one morning to find Zak in the shower? :)

[Aurora]

Well I think you're all blemin wrong ;)

likelihood of turning up at the algae planet just in time to catch the super nova? Our survey says "eh uhh". Only way that could have happened is if the people who set up the temple knew exactly when the fleet and cylons were coming. And that takes some form of amazing foresight or the distinct possibility that there's a loop and they have seen both sides of it.

I agree. This view is also evidenced by by the fact that the Final Five, who could have been anywhere doing anything, just happened to be located in places that allowed them to not only survive the cylon nuke attack, but to ultimately be riding along with the very few survivors who are looking for Earth.

[Pnutmaster]

I agree with Wouter and Timbo. We should remember Leoben's speech to Kara in Flesh and Blood where he says that all of this has happened before, but last time maybe he was the interrogator, and she was the prisoner; that events stay the same but the players change. This, to me, sounds like what the two amigos are saying (and I think Genji mentioned it).

That's true, and it's artistically pleasant if the cycle differs in the details each time, but as it stands now...who thinks the Fleet won't inevitably return to Kobol?

[The Dirt]

I think that the next stop is the Cylon homeworld. This is where the colonials are going to settle.

[Pnutmaster]

I think that the next stop is the Cylon homeworld. This is where the colonials are going to settle.

Ah, but what if the disjointed spoilers are right, and Earth is the Cylon homeworld as they know it ;)? Don't think anyone is settling there, not for a few centuries anyway.

[genji2000]

Wasn't it highly likely, since both fleets were looking for Earth and therefore the Lion's Head Nebula, and since big-brained Baltar was onboard the Basestar, using the Colonials' navigation charts and the map from Kobol, that both fleets would reach the algae planet together? I didn't understand what led Baltar to believe the chances of that were infinitesimally small.

Ah, but what if the disjointed spoilers are right, and Earth is the Cylon homeworld as they know it ;)? Don't think anyone is settling there, not for a few centuries anyway.

Why I can't buy into that idea is because the Cylons needed Baltar to locate the Lion's Head Nebula and set them on the path to Earth. Why would they, if it is their homeworld?

[Pnutmaster]

Why I can't buy into that idea is because the Cylons needed Baltar to locate the Lion's Head Nebula and set them on the path to Earth. Why would they, if it is their homeworld?

Who's to say the Cylons even know where their homeworld is? Judging by the importance of the Hub, I'm assuming their fleet is all they know of. If there was a homeworld out there, why not return to and build another Hub?

[genji2000]

Who's to say the Cylons even know where their homeworld is?

That's what I can't buy. Why would they have forgotten or lost its location when they only settled there forty years ago. I can accept that Earth is a Cylon Homeworld (for the the 'original' batch, the Thirteenth Tribe what is called 'Cylon'), but the new Cylons only founded their Homeworld after the Colonial-Cylon war ended forty years ago.

Judging by the importance of the Hub, I'm assuming their fleet is all they know of. If there was a homeworld out there, why not return to and build another Hub?

Maybe resurrection was based on technology they didn't understand, along with humanoid models, projection, the Tomb of Athena and the Temple of Five.

[icklepants]

Wasn't it highly likely, since both fleets were looking for Earth and therefore the Lion's Head Nebula, and since big-brained Baltar was onboard the Basestar, using the Colonials' navigation charts and the map from Kobol, that both fleets would reach the algae planet together? I didn't understand what led Baltar to believe the chances of that were infinitesimally small.



Why I can't buy into that idea is because the Cylons needed Baltar to locate the Lion's Head Nebula and set them on the path to Earth. Why would they, if it is their homeworld?

We haven't been told enough about the Cylon homeworld to make speculation yet apart form the pre-mentioned disjointed rumour that Cylon is Earth. The idea could be that the original Cylons came from there and haven't been switched on to remember. tigh, Anders, etc were supposed to help find Earth but they honestly didn't have a clue where it was. The second Cylon homeworld could have been just a base that the machines/skinjobs were developed/created on, as of yet we don't know.

The likelihood of the two gangs coming together was small because the only reason Baltar even thought about heading there was because the Hybrid told him to and the Fleet were there for completely different reasons (the algae), they didn't know what it was. In addition the temple was set up for the super nova so things could be revealed, now I'm pretty sure that happens quite rarely so arriving on the cusp of it would be unbelievably unlikely. Even with a repetitive destiny, there has to be some puppet mastery to get them there in time. This is why I feel there is a loop because the only way you could set up the temple like that with the exact knowledge of when visitors would arrive is if you yourself had been one of the visitors.