I think I figured it out - the Fifth

[cameraguyfresno]

It's Boomer.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.
3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.
4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.
5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2WWyAc1daI&feature=related

[Jason1975]

It's Boomer.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.
3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.
4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.
5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2WWyAc1daI&feature=related

Welcome to the forum Cameraguyfresno.

1: cannot deny that.
2: true
3: True D'Anna said that.
4: Boomer was a sleeper agent at that time I do not think that she wrote the note. Caprica Six told Baltar they were twelve models. Baltar could have easily have written the note.
5: I do not get why you put what the hybrid said in razor about the final cylon. Why would D'Anna insult Boomer if she was the final cylon? Wouldn't D'Anna go with Boomer and Cavil, if Boomer was one of the final cylon?

[cameraguyfresno]

#5. Hybrid,"fifth clawing to the light"
D'Anna "till she sees something shiny" Light = shiny. If you watch the scene she wasn't insulting her at all. I take that scene as she was testing her..putting her on the spot. Look at the youtube.

and there are few if any characters that fit these conditions - all the cally, baltar, roslin or Lee theories.

[cameraguyfresno]

thanks jason...I usually post in imdb but wanted to see what other BSG fans thought about this theory. I've gotten "dumbest" idea from a few to a few really good posts that support this idea.

my thing is that no other major theory for the fifth meets all the conditions set forth by the producers and the HUB episode nailed it for me...

[Jason1975]

I was just trying to clarify you theory a little bit. Your theory is good as the next one. Boomer is becoming very popular choose after Revelations. One that I do not share. The thing that troubles me is that Caprica Six said that she can feel that the final five cylons are close in "He that Believeth in Me". Also, Natalie says that the final five are in your fleet when talking to Adama and Roslin in "Guess What's Coming to Dinner".

[The Dirt]

4 -- RDM has stated that it was Baltar who left the note.

D'Anna's remark to Boomer is rather disrespectful, so I doubt that D'Anna would be mean to a FF. Also, wouldn't she want to make sure that Boomer didn't run away? Seems like she doesn't care either way.

The hybrid comment seems to suggest that it's Baltar. He is seeking redemption, and he did just suffer (in The Hub), however it seems like he's had worse. We'll see.

[cameraguyfresno]

yeah I think Baltar would probably need the most redemption..however..he is in the Last Supper picture...

hm...watching the scene with D'anna and Boomer...doesn't seem disrespectful at all to me..mabye I'm just being blind and seeing what i want to see..but still...

[genji2000]

4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.


RDM believes Baltar left the note, and his guess is as good as any of ours. Boomer had no idea about the Cylons and could only have left it during one of her subconscious, programming-kicking-in moments, and in those moments she would be unlikely to give Adama valuable information on the Cylons.

That said, welcome to the Boomer club. It's good that someone else has seen the light too. Check out Wouter's posts for a much more compelling argument for Boomer as the Final Cylon.

yeah I think Baltar would probably need the most redemption..however..he is in the Last Supper picture...

hm...watching the scene with D'anna and Boomer...doesn't seem disrespectful at all to me..mabye I'm just being blind and seeing what i want to see..but still...

It is very disrespectful. However that whole conversation is managed by D'Anna to establish whether Boomer has been activated as a F5. D'Anna has no love for Boomer and until the F5 consciousness is activated she's still just Boomer to D'Anna.

It's funny you think Baltar is in greater need of redemption than Boomer. Baltar has always acted true to his own nature. I think he craves forgiveness, but I doubt he would consider that he needs to be redeemed. Indeed, as an 'instrument of god' he would probably consider himself the redeemer. Boomer has consistently acted against her true nature and is in a much darker place because of it. No character craves redemption as deeply as Boomer.

[Teknopathetik]

along time ago i came up with the theory it was boomer while sitting around with my friends, but all those conditions fir Kendra Shaw as well. Razor was about redeptions and Kendra Shaw is the character who needed it most. As well, making it kendra shaw would boost Razor sales too. Id prefer boomer, but it could be kendra.

i know this also mostly fits ellen, but ellen doesnt seek redemption, she just is the way she is.

[LSOP]

I'm with you on the Boomer theory, cameraguyfresno.

[cameraguyfresno]

can you give me a link to Wouter's theory about Boomer? I'd be fascinated to read it!

[genji2000]

can you give me a link to Wouter's theory about Boomer? I'd be fascinated to read it!

Sure.

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=17239&postcount=71

I think this is the first time he made a link between Boomer and the Final Cylon in the forum, but there are many subsequent posts where the theory is expanded, and it's more to do with specifics than generic arguments like "she's not in the Last Supper photo" or "she's been around since Season One", both of which apply to many characters. Your best bet is to find all posts by Wouter after that date and work through them. There's no "I've guessed the Final Cylon" thread because we already have a couple of threads (one is a poll) on this forum for discussion of the Final Cylon, so most of the evidence is dispersed across those and the discussions around the latter episodes of 4.0.

The concept of one of the existing Cylons (as we thought) actually being a F5 was developed from earlier discussions about D'Anna being the Final Cylon, though the case wasn't very well put and I can't remember who espoused it.

[cameraguyfresno]

for some reason I can't access the link but will try to look through Wouter's past threads. However, I disagree that there are a number of characters that meet the "generic" conditions given for the Fifth cylon.

[huskerchad]

I think one big thing that supports this is that D'Anna says that only four are in the fleet. Remember she just woke up after being boxed, so she doesn't necessarily know everything that's been going on and what the state of things is.

For various reasons discussed in other threads, I don't think it's reasonable for her to lie about this.

I don't think it's any of the fleet members who came over to the cylon ship. If it were, D'Anna would just welcome them home.

So, if D'Anna's statement about four in the fleet is correct, then she must have seen something that proved to here that the fifth is somewhere else. Boomer's just about the only one who fits that.

[genji2000]

for some reason I can't access the link but will try to look through Wouter's past threads. However, I disagree that there are a number of characters that meet the "generic" conditions given for the Fifth cylon.

Link works fine for me.

...it's more to do with specifics than generic arguments like "she's not in the Last Supper photo" or "she's been around since Season One", both of which apply to many characters.

Many characters satisfy these two generic conditions: Gaeta, Dualla, Zarek, Racetrack, the tattooed pilot, Cally, Ellen Tigh, etc., etc. You could also include the likes of Zak Adama, and at a stretch Carolanne Adama (Bill asks after her in the Miniseries).

So, if D'Anna's statement about four in the fleet is correct, then she must have seen something that proved to here that the fifth is somewhere else. Boomer's just about the only one who fits that.

There's also Helo, Roslin and Baltar.

[Pnutmaster]

TheVarrior and I were discussing the Boomer theory today and we encountered a problem with it.

If Boomer is the Fifth Cylon, how do we reconcile the fact that her memories have been downloaded by the Eights? If Athena has all of Boomer's memories up until her assassination, what makes Boomer special?

[genji2000]

TheVarrior and I were discussing the Boomer theory today and we encountered a problem with it.

If Boomer is the Fifth Cylon, how do we reconcile the fact that her memories have been downloaded by the Eights? If Athena has all of Boomer's memories up until her assassination, what makes Boomer special?

Read through Wouter's posts about downloading and resurrection, memories and consciousness, for the answers to that.

Briefly, who said her memories have been downloaded by the Eights? Athena accessed Boomer's memories to glean the information she would need to execute her mission in relation to Helo. She doesn't have all of Boomer's memories. She has no memory of shooting Adama, for example. Athena accessed Boomer's memories at some point prior to 33.

[Pnutmaster]

Ah, I must catch up on my readings of the local prophet then :p

I forgot that Athena only had Boomer's memories up until the attack on the colonies, and I wonder how they were accessed in the first place...

I admit that the Boomer theory is convincing and fits the Hybrid's words very nicely, but I won't fully stomach it until it's fact, hehe.

[genji2000]

Ah, I must catch up on my readings of the local prophet then :p

Oh, I thought that was you.

"I present to you, humble readers of the BSG Wiki Forum, my cumulative theory regarding the many subplots and histories that adorn the reimagined-Battlestar Star Galactica series."
:devil:

I forgot that Athena only had Boomer's memories up until the attack on the colonies, and I wonder how they were accessed in the first place...

Not by default. A very clever Cylon who knows what she's doing can access another copy's memories, potentially using a backdoor.

I admit that the Boomer theory is convincing and fits the Hybrid's words very nicely, but I won't fully stomach it until it's fact, hehe.

Well, no, of course. Until they finally reveal the Fifth it will remain open to conjecture.

[Jason1975]

As, I am think about things. If I am wrong about who I think the cylon is, then my second choose for the last cylon is Boomer.

[cameraguyfresno]

Jason. what is your first choice for the fifth?

For the life of me I can't find more than one of Wouter's posts or threads. Is it me or is this forum one of the hardest to navigate?

[genji2000]

For the life of me I can't find more than one of Wouter's posts or threads. Is it me or is this forum one of the hardest to navigate?

Are you kidding me?

You just find one of his posts, click his name and select Find all posts by Wouter.

Here, I've done it for you:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/search.php?searchid=84725&pp=25&page=2

10 June forward is what you're looking for.

[Starstruck]

Read through Wouter's posts about downloading and resurrection, memories and consciousness, for the answers to that.

Briefly, who said her memories have been downloaded by the Eights? Athena accessed Boomer's memories to glean the information she would need to execute her mission in relation to Helo. She doesn't have all of Boomer's memories. She has no memory of shooting Adama, for example. Athena accessed Boomer's memories at some point prior to 33.

That's always been a mystery, actually. Boomer died AFTER Athena had already begun seducing Helo, so when did she have a chance to access her memories? This has never been explained.

[genji2000]

That's always been a mystery, actually. Boomer died AFTER Athena had already begun seducing Helo, so when did she have a chance to access her memories? This has never been explained.

Boomer would have touched based periodically and automatically without it being known to her (as per the 'blackouts' in Water and Kobol's Last Gleaming).

It's a bit of a hole this, unless someone can explain it to me. I don't think Boomer was anywhere near a Resurrection Ship when Cally shot her, so how did the Boomer consciousness including the memory of her death download?

[Xenon242]

I don't think Boomer was anywhere near a Resurrection Ship when Cally shot her, so how did the Boomer consciousness including the memory of her death download?

This is one of those occasions where we're going to have to call creative licence and live with it, unfortunately. Otherwise, it would remove a fair chunk of Boomer's post-shooting death raison d'être, which would then leave the writers with quite a few holes to fill with something else.

[Jason1975]

Boomer would have touched based periodically and automatically without it being known to her (as per the 'blackouts' in Water and Kobol's Last Gleaming).

It's a bit of a hole this, unless someone can explain it to me. I don't think Boomer was anywhere near a Resurrection Ship when Cally shot her, so how did the Boomer consciousness including the memory of her death download?

When she was shot she was close enough to Caprica or to the Cylon Homeworld to be able to download there.

[Jason1975]

Jason. what is your first choice for the fifth?
Cameraguyfresno,
For the life of me I can't find more than one of Wouter's posts or threads. Is it me or is this forum one of the hardest to navigate?

My first choose is Dualla which is Zoe Greystone resurrected and the seventh humanoid model. D'Anna saw Zoe in her vision, thats why D'Anna thinks that the fifth cylon is not in the fleet.

If you are part of the Season 4 spoilers group:
http://battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=18469#post18469

It is a long read.

If you are not part of the Season 4 spoilers group and want to, this link will show you how.
http://battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=67&page=2

[smelly_feet]

I don't think that we have yet seen the act which needs redemption and we have not seen the suffering. I think its Starbuck. She is going to do something really bad. That is her destiny. She will suffer and will need to seek redemption. I also think that the final cylon is definitely female. In the sketches it looks like two females to me. Although Baltar also has long hair.

[The Dirt]

Yeah, I hope those stand-ins in the Final Five promo pic from The Eye of Jupiter actually mean something.

[genji2000]

When she was shot she was close enough to Caprica or to the Cylon Homeworld to be able to download there.

Oh well done. I don't think either is true, but still, it's a first step.

I don't think that we have yet seen the act which needs redemption and we have not seen the suffering. I think its Starbuck. She is going to do something really bad. That is her destiny. She will suffer and will need to seek redemption. I also think that the final cylon is definitely female. In the sketches it looks like two females to me. Although Baltar also has long hair.

With Boomer we have seen the acts for which she craves redemption, and she's in a deep dark hole now. A possibility for the howl of terrible suffering is that Cavil discovers her identity and threatens her life or tortures her in some kind of stand off with D'Anna.

For Kara, I think you could argue that she's in a deep dark hole, has been since childhood. What put her there are the sins of her mother, but nonetheless Kara would seek redemption for that. The howl of terrible suffering could be her discovery of her old body on Earth.

[cameraguyfresno]

My second choice is Diana Seelix. Based on simplistic view that Diana is twin to Apollo in Greek mythology and Leobin said Adama is a cylon. Diana could be a long lost twin which could create interesting storyline in Caprica series with the Adamas. Plus she meets the other requirements: not in picture and not in fleet.

[genji2000]

My second choice is Diana Seelix. Based on simplistic view that Diana is twin to Apollo in Greek mythology and Leobin said Adama is a cylon. Diana could be a long lost twin which could create interesting storyline in Caprica series with the Adamas. Plus she meets the other requirements: not in picture and not in fleet.

Was Seelix on the Basestar? Did D'Anna know she was on the Basestar?

[cameraguyfresno]

actually I don't remember any reference that D'Anna knew or saw Seelix was on the Baseship..we only know and see Seelix whining...that is why Boomer is still the most sound guess so far.

[cameraguyfresno]

genji2000, can't really find a great post from wouter about Boomer's qualifications for being the fifth. He just says "she be a really good candidate". He or she is very knowledgeable about other factors - I look at all his recent posts and can't find him giving any compelling debate for her.

However..I found an excellent article by a member in here who advocated that Lee Adama was the fifth. It was a great and very compelling article. However that article was written before the D'Anna exclamation that four were in the fleet.

Just curious..why do YOU think Boomer is Fifth?

[genji2000]

genji2000, can't really find a great post from wouter about Boomer's qualifications for being the fifth. He just says "she be a really good candidate". He or she is very knowledgeable about other factors - I look at all his recent posts and can't find him giving any compelling debate for her.

However..I found an excellent article by a member in here who advocated that Lee Adama was the fifth. It was a great and very compelling article. However that article was written before the D'Anna exclamation that four were in the fleet.

Just curious..why do YOU think Boomer is Fifth?

Well since you had difficulty even finding Wouter's posts yesterday, I'd have to assume you haven't read the conversations around them to be able say his only argument is "she'd be a really good candidate". Like I said, there is no single "My Guess At the Final Cylon" post. The concept developed over a number of conversations. Please try and do some research on it. I read your imdb posts, which led me to believe you'd just jumped at Boomer rather than thinking it through. For example, your reasoning for Boomer being an Eight and also the Final Cylon had no substance, but rested on an analogy of Jesus being a Jew and also a Christian. This is a fundamental barrier to the possibility of Boomer being the Final Cylon and it needs to be rationally overcome. Wouter's reasoning went into some detail, describing how two different models could conceivably be (as an extreme but illustrative example) only 1% different - that Sevens and Eights may appear and behave the same (which would allow a Seven to download into an Eight's body), but there would be some fundamental difference that marked them as separate. Did you read that explanation?

The potential for what I considered to be one copy of one Cylon model also simultaneously being a completely different Cylon model (i.e. an Eight and one of the Final Five) was something I didn't agree with at all. Wouter's point was that Boomer is not an Eight. She never was. Where the human fleet thought they had a girl from Aerelon as Lieutenant, who turned out to be a Cylon sleeper agent, the Cylons thought they had an Eight model working as a sleeper agent in the fleet, but she turns out to be one of the Final Five (potentially a Seven model, but this is irrelevant), so ultimately she is a sleeper in the Cylon fleet.

The next hurdle was, of course, how could the Cylons not know that she wasn't an Eight? That comes back to the possible 1% difference, that she is enough like an Eight a) for the Cylons not to be aware that she is not and b) to enable her consciousness to download into an Eight's body.

They're the two key issues that convinced me that she could potentially be the Final Cylon. I always refer to Wouter because he made the suggestion first, some weeks ago, and because his arguments for that potential beat my own against it, and I believe in credit where credit's due, but in truth, privately (accepting the arguments Wouter made) I consider that I also worked a lot of it out for myself. In fact, I don't think anyone can claim to have an opinion on the identity of the Final Fifth if they haven't got there by themselves (however much other people's arguments have swayed them).

So, once Wouter explained how it was possible that Boomer is not an Eight, and how it was possible that she could operate undetected as a Final Five Cylon in Cylon society, I looked at all the hints and clues for her the same as anyone does for any character.

A big clue was obviously her voting against her model. Whilst not proving that she is the Final Cylon, this does bolster the argument that she is not an Eight.

An obvious well of indication are the utterances of various Hybrids, the most obvious being:

The five lights of the apocalypse rising, struggling towards the light, the sins revealed only to those who enter the temple, only to the chosen one.
And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.

D'Anna's reaction to Boomer on the Hub, and her assertion that only four of the Final Five were in the colonial fleet were both fairly obvious roadsigns.

Boomer's continued presence at the heart of the Cylon fleet (not the rebels) is a strong one for me. All of the Watchtower Four were operational at the highest levels of the colonial fleet, whilst never being at the very top. It's possible imo that Boomer's F5 'mission' is to stay at that level, next to Cavil who, consensus rule notwithstanding, delivers a lot of the guidance and persuasion in the fleet.

Obviously, her post-resurrection conversion of the Cylons indicated a pre-destined role, in which she was ably joined by Caprica Six, whose role I think is as important as the Final Five's, the Herald's, and that of the Chosen One.

Then there is speculation.

Why would the Final Five only be operative in the colonial fleet? Surely, with the apocalypse looming, they also need to have a presence in Cylon society. So who in Cylon society would fit the role? Cavils are too much slaves to their programming for the Final Cylon to operate as one of them. Like Dualla, Seelix, the tattooed pilot etc., I wouldn't think there'd be much of a pay off in having Doral or Simon as the Final Cylon because they're too minor. Certainly not D'Anna because she was boxed most of the time, and it was she who saw the Final Five. Boomer is the only option.

As a self-iterating cycle, wouldn't it be amazing to have us go back and watch the Miniseries and Season One again with our new found knowledge that Boomer is the Final Cylon, after we've already been sent back to the Miniseries once when we discovered that she was a Cylon? "Yeah, it's multi-layered. It was made that way."

Plus the circumstantial evidence such as "Boomer's coming back in a big bad way", and the balance of the Cylon models (five females and seven males).

So, compare those reasons with the ones you gave in the original post.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.

Whoop-de-doo. Both those reasons apply to almost half of the characters.

3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.

Fair enough. That convinced me too.

4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.

That's just wrong, because (although they won't explain it) RDM has stated that in his opinon Baltar left the note.

5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

I can't deduce a reason in that. What point are you making?

So, from the original post here and your posts on imdb, I cannot fathom what reason you have for suspecting Boomer in the first place. You haven't mentioned anything that would lead me to say "oh yeah, Boomer". What was the trigger for you and what reasoning did you use to flesh out the theory? Is it at all significant that your first "Boomer is the Final Cylon" post on imdb came two days after Wouter's initial theory on our forum? Just wondering.

[cameraguyfresno]

Actually once I deduced it was Boomer I was excited to share and hear input from other BSG fans. The IMDB forum still has many people speculating on characters that don't meet the simplistic conditions set forth. I tried to get into Sci Fi but for some reason can't post. Then I came in here where I would have to say there are many very knowlegeable fans and fans who can make a statement and defend their points.

My deduction is to eliminate all the major characters and leave the only ones that would make any sense and create some sort of cinematic pay off to the audience. All in all it's just logical to believe it is Boomer.

Going backwards...once D'Anna said the final cylon is not in the fleet you look at who is NOT in the fleet. That is where Boomer first came into mind. Then came the how can it be Boomer if she is in the Last Supper? Well she is hugging Helo so she must be Athena and not Boomer as a solution.

Also to say that any other character that is NOT in the last supper photo can be the fifth cylon is fine. But of that field..which one is not in the fleet. You elilminate Zarek, Caprica 6 and Romo then. Again it goes back to Boomer.

Now who else is still NOT in the Last Supper? Dead characters or Zack as some people say? Ellen or Adm. Cain some people say. But they don't meet the condition of being in the series from the beginning. Plus why would it be dramatic if Ellen or Cain be the fifth? Boomer makes the MOST dramatic character left that meets all the conditions. You make it Ellen and your audience will say..oh. You make it Boomer and they'll say..."yeah...I see..makes sense." as they connect the dots.

So I tried to build my case further and wondered about the interaction of D'Anna and Boomer if she indeed knows Boomer is the final cylon. So I looked up the only scene i remember: the resurrection of D'Anna. Now I don't think you understrand this clearly....D'Anna parenthetically is saying..."until Boomer sees the light Cavel then she'll stop being your pet." Compare that to what the hybrid say and you have VOILA! Read the dialogue or watch the youtube. Do you get it now? I think it is the BIGGEST hint the writers have given us. Why would D'Anna say such a strange phrase as "till she sees something shiny"? Except that it is clever rephrasing of "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light,"

My poor analogy of Jesus and a Jew was to counter what some people saying Boomer can't be the final cylon since she's already an 8. I was merely trying to say she can and also asking..why not? What reference do you have to say that?

Lastly how dramatic will it be to have Boomer have that internal strife trying to understand what or who she is since she's hated in the fleet and also vilified among her 8's.

I'm just totally excited to think..feel that we've deciphered this little mystery I just wanted to share...and see what other people felt.

I believe the moderator of this forum wrote a beautiful manifesto about the fifth cylon...now his reasoning is superb and would make a much much more dramatic tension for the show if LEE was the final cylon.

But looking at the conditions that Boomer meets...and that it would make good television and the Hub episode..there is no one more logically suitable to be the fifth cylon.

I hear and understand you and Wouter's reasoning and don't buy very easily. I like the "stream of conciousness" theory over Boomer but I think it is too high brow for television. I love the Lee article but he has two strikes against him: in Last Supper and being in fleet. I'm thinking what would the television writers conjure up that a tv audience would accept and take it. They've provided enough clues.. I think we have the only logical candidate in Boomer. Of course they will give us some misdirection but it's Boomer.

[genji2000]

Actually once I deduced it was Boomer I was excited to share and hear input from other BSG fans. The IMDB forum still has many people speculating on characters that don't meet the simplistic conditions set forth. I tried to get into Sci Fi but for some reason can't post. Then I came in here where I would have to say there are many very knowlegeable fans and fans who can make a statement and defend their points.

I had the devil's own job getting onto scifi.com. I tried three different email addresses, successfully registered, but none would let me login. In the end someone who already had an account invited me and that worked. Let me know if you want an invitation.

My deduction is to eliminate all the major characters and leave the only ones that would make any sense and create some sort of cinematic pay off to the audience. All in all it's just logical to believe it is Boomer.

Going backwards...once D'Anna said the final cylon is not in the fleet you look at who is NOT in the fleet. That is where Boomer first came into mind. Then came the how can it be Boomer if she is in the Last Supper? Well she is hugging Helo so she must be Athena and not Boomer as a solution.

Also to say that any other character that is NOT in the last supper photo can be a cylon is fine. But of that field..which one is not in the fleet. You elilminate Zarek, Caprica 6 and Romo then. Again it goes back to Boomer.

Now who else is still NOT in the Last Supper? Dead characters or Zack as some people say? Ellen or Adm. Cain some people say. But they don't meet the condition of being in the series from the beginning. Plus why would it be dramatic if Ellen or Cain be the fifth? Boomer makes the MOST dramatic character left that meets all the conditions.

So I tried to build my case further and wondered about the interaction of D'Anna and Boomer if she indeed knows Boomer is the final cylon. So I looked up the only scene i remember: the resurrection of D'Anna. Now I don't think you understrand this clearly....D'Anna parenthetically is saying..."until Boomer sees the light Cavel then she'll stop being your pet." Compare that to what the hybrid say and you have VOILA! Read the dialogue or watch the youtube. Do you get it now? I think it is the BIGGEST hint the writers have given us. Why would D'Anna say such a strange phrase as "till she sees something shiny"? Except that it is clever rephrasing of "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light,"

Well that's amazing. It's quite joyous to be honest.

Go back to the music that's playing, that Indian, Eastern music, and, as you and others have pointed out, it's exotic and dark, and it begins when D'Anna looks round at Boomer and fades away when she foucuses her attention once more on Cavil. I'd even make a case for the subtle melodies being a variation on Heeding the Call and other associated music from Crossroads. Big clue. Big piece of supporting evidence I'd say. I wouldn't say it's a potential trigger, but if you're very susceptible to the soundtrack then you might prick up your ears.

As for the dialogue. Well, firstly you were more accurate in your original post than you are here.

Cavil: Your supporters are working with humans against all the rest of us. All in your name.
D'Anna (turning to face Boomer, cue music): Boomer's an Eight. Shouldn't she be on the other side?
Cavil: Boomer's my pet Eight. She's seen the light of reason. An Eight can make a passionate ally.
D'Anna: Until she sees something shiny.

So you see, D'Anna is not implying that Boomer will hang around Cavil until she sees the light and realises her true nature (or as you say "until Boomer sees the light Cavel then she'll stop being your pet"). She is saying that Eights in general ("an Eight" as an example) stick to their allies until they get sidetracked (e.g. Athena and Helo). I think the "shiny" comment is a reference to Buffy (I've never watched Buffy but I've heard fans say "ooh, shiny", and maybe it has some significance in that show). So that comment implies that they're not reliable. The other models all consider Eights inferior, weak, silly even.

That said, if Boomer turns out to be the Final Cylon then at this point we are waiting for her to see the light, acknowledge her true nature, so I wouldn't say you're wrong, just that this statement of D'Anna's is fairly minimal, supporting evidence at best, and I'm surprised that, being a staunch advocate of Seelix as the Final Cylon, this is what sold you on Boomer.

But if it did then well spotted.

My poor analogy of Jesus and a Jew was to counter what some people saying Boomer can't be the final cylon since she's already an 8. I was merely trying to say she can and also asking..why not? What reference do you have to say that?

But they're right. Boomer can't be the final Cylon if she's an Eight. That's the fundamental barrier to it being remotely possible. That's why I have a problem with your deduction: you appear still to believe that she is an Eight.

Lastly how dramatic will it be to have Boomer have that internal strife trying to understand what or who she is since she's hated in the fleet and also vilified among her 8's.

Yes, I completely agree. Everything that she's been through, the dark places she is confined to, will all be just steps, experiences necessary to bring her to her potential.

I'm just totally excited to think..feel that we've deciphered this little mystery I just wanted to share...and see what other people felt.

That was my initial problem. You joined the forum yesterday and immediately posted a new thread without finding your way around and seeing that a) we already had a Final Cylon thread, to which your comments should have been added, and b) we've already discussed Boomer at length, so it wasn't a new concept.

I believe the moderator of this forum wrote a beautiful manifesto about the fifth cylon...now his reasoning is superb and would make a much much more dramatic tension for the show if LEE was the final cylon.

But looking at the conditions that Boomer meets...and that it would make good television and the Hub episode..there is no one more logically suitable to be the fifth cylon.

I hear and understand you and Wouter's reasoning and don't buy very easily. I like the "stream of conciousness" theory over Boomer

I'm not familiar with that. What do you mean?

but I think it is too high brow for television. I love the Lee article but he has two strikes against him: in Last Supper and being in fleet.

Not to mention he was a baby once and there are no Cylon babies.

I'm thinking what would the television writers conjure up that a tv audience would accept and take it. They've provided enough clues.. I think we have the only logical candidate in Boomer. Of course they will give us some misdirection but it's Boomer.

Might be Cavil. :)

[genji2000]

All that took quite a bit of effort and something else has just occurred to me.

Boomer is just one of a number of plausible options. To me (and other people) she's the most logical choice, but to other people she's not. In truth, I could care more about who the Final Cylon is. I think it's one of the least important of the most important aspects of the story at this point. I do think it's important to discuss the identity of the Final Cylon for two reasons: firstly to deflect attention away from more important aspects (such as the purpose of the Final Five, the roles that various characters are playing in the cycle of time, what happens next on Earth and potentially back on Kobol, etc.) because if those aspects received the same amount of attention as the identity of the Final Cylon then I doubt the show would hold many more surprises for us; and secondly to maintain attention to this forum and keep people visiting. However, there's a fine line between sparking off a lively debate with a bit of controversy to keep things moving along, and being bloody-minded and offensive. There's also a limit to how long you can maintain interest in the same subject matter, and right now I feel Boomered out. This discussion has been about how we disagree on the validity of the reasons for us both coming to the same conclusion. That's ludicrous and I hope no one bothers reading this thread.

EDIT: I take this back. After all effort expended on the fruitless task of trawling through previous discussions that have taken place over the last number of weeks in order to explain the valid (i.e. not "she wasn't in the Last Supper picture you know") evidence to someone who can't be arsed trawling through them himself and totally misinterprets his own evidence, I will be really pissed off if Boomer's not the Final Cylon.

[Proxenus]

It's Boomer.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.
3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.
4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.
5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2WWyAc1daI&feature=related

I'm not sure I 100% agree, but it is possible. She fits many of the clues (at least the clues we know of). She's been there since the beginning, she's not with the fleet when D'Anna talks to Colonel Tigh, she does need redemption, and she's in "shadow" in that she's not with the humans but following Cavil around.

Here's my problem with it. The Final Five are supposed to be "fundamentally different than the Seven. Boomer is not different than the Seven.

Remember, when she downloaded, she downloaded into a new Number 8 model body. Her new Number 8 body would be no different than any other Number 8 body.

Colonel Tigh, Chief Tyrol, Ensign Anders, and Tory Foster have never died (as far as we know) and still maintain their bodies which could be different.

Now, they could always come up with an explanation (i.e., when ever Boomer dies, she actually gets a "special body" that the Seven aren't aware of as they are programed not to think about it), but most of these explanations would be rather cheesy.

Another problem with this theory is that when the Boomer version was originally created, the Cylon group would have noticed her being different.

Of course, this would devolve into a discussion about how many actual humanoid Cylons are there? 20 of each? 30? If the basal personality construct downloaded into each one before deployment ("Hey, I need 10 more number Sixes on the double").

[Pnutmaster]

Boomer is just one of a number of plausible options. To me (and other people) she's the most logical choice, but to other people she's not. In truth, I could care more about who the Final Cylon is. I think it's one of the least important of the most important aspects of the story at this point. I do think it's important to discuss the identity of the Final Cylon for two reasons: firstly to deflect attention away from more important aspects (such as the purpose of the Final Five, the roles that various characters are playing in the cycle of time, what happens next on Earth and potentially back on Kobol, etc.) because if those aspects received the same amount of attention as the identity of the Final Cylon then I doubt the show would hold many more surprises for us; and secondly to maintain attention to this forum and keep people visiting. However, there's a fine line between sparking off a lively debate with a bit of controversy to keep things moving along, and being bloody-minded and offensive. There's also a limit to how long you can maintain interest in the same subject matter, and right now I feel Boomered out. This discussion has been about how we disagree on the validity of the reasons for us both coming to the same conclusion. That's ludicrous and I hope no one bothers reading this thread.

Agree wholeheartedly.

...but before the subject is closed, :lol:

While the "until she sees something shiny" line is interesting, how would D'Anna even know what the first Hybrid said? That's been troubling me. After reading your post, genji, it's starting to seem more likely that the line was meant as an insult to, as D'Anna saw her, a simple minded pet.

[genji2000]

Here's my problem with it. The Final Five are supposed to be "fundamentally different than the Seven. Boomer is not different than the Seven.

"Fundamentally different" does not mean "wholly different" and it certainly doesn't mean "physically different". The fundamental difference is likely to be in the model's consciousness.

Another problem with this theory is that when the Boomer version was originally created, the Cylon group would have noticed her being different.

The development of the humanoid Cylons is far too mysterious to say this or that would or wouldn't have happened. All manner of explanations could cover this. A number of people on this forum reckon the Final Five influenced or even instigated the development of the humanoid Cylons, in which case they could easily have found a way to make an Eight body capable of hosting a Seven consciousness.

Of course, this would devolve into a discussion about how many actual humanoid Cylons are there? 20 of each? 30? If the basal personality construct downloaded into each one before deployment ("Hey, I need 10 more number Sixes on the double").

There are millions of copies of each model in existence according to Cavil.

Agree wholeheartedly.

...but before the subject is closed, :lol:

While the "until she sees something shiny" line is interesting, how would D'Anna even know what the first Hybrid said? That's been troubling me. After reading your post, genji, it's starting to seem more likely that the line was meant as an insult to, as D'Anna saw her, a simple minded pet.

You know what, Pnutty, in the midst (mist even) of all that tedium I totally overlooked this. The quote in the original post is completely incorrect. D'Anna would not have known of the Razor Hybrid's utterances and thus would never have heard:

"And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

However, D'Anna was present with Baltar when the Hybrid on her own Basestar said this in The Eye of Jupiter:

"The five lights of the apocalypse rising, struggling towards the light, the sins revealed only to those who enter the temple, only to the chosen one."

The OP didn't refer to this though and therefore I'm even less convinced of his reasons for spotting Boomer as the Final Cylon.

[cameraguyfresno]

I love this discussion!

how about this? the final five are fundamentally different. and we don't know or fully understand all the differences so we cannot logically put any limits on what they can or cannot do hence we can't say: she can't be the fifth because she's a cylon..because...ta day...the final five are fundamentally different.

I think the D'Anna dialogue was a contrived hint. You are correct to say how did D'Anna know what the hybrid? The writers do that...like we all knew Lee was going to be president..they way they concocted how he became president was lame.

Now if the fifth cylon can't be a cylon? Why can the final four cylon be cylons if they are human? They age like humans and mate like humans. They've passed every "test" of being human assuming Anders and Tyrol would have taken some sort of physical for sport or military enlistment. Just the same as Boomer would have "passed" sort of test being a cylon. Remember we don't know all the differences of the final four so we can't lay limits upon them. Reasonable?

Cavil can't be the fifth because he wasn't there from the beginning as far as I remember.


Taken as a whole...Boomer is the best candidate.

an aside:

"That was my initial problem. You joined the forum yesterday and immediately posted a new thread without finding your way around and seeing that a) we already had a Final Cylon thread, to which your comments should have been added, and b) we've already discussed Boomer at length, so it wasn't a new concept."

why is this a "problem"? I read a few of the threads on this forum before I posted but no one put Boomer and did a clear listing like i did i.e listing #1-#4 reason with break downs. yeah it' s not a new concept but..like i said...the generic standards I listed are met. And I explained my deductions. I'm not here to steal anyone's thunder...we win nothing..hahaha..I'm just excited to feel to deciphered something logically. This implication is seen a few times where you mentioned you cannot see why I believe Boomer is the fifth cylone when I simplistic listed #1 reason, #2 reason, #3 reason and so on. Your wrote: " I'm even less convinced of his reasons for spotting Boomer as the Final Cylon." See #1-4. Is there a contest i didn't know about? hahahaha Actually you have not really clearly or succinctly stated why you think Boomer is the fifth. If we can stretch just a tad and believe that the fifth can be a cylon then the case is pretty rock solid. Personally I think it's harder to make a case that Boomer is not a cylon than to say the final cylon is fundarmentally different and can be a cylon and the fifth cylon.

[cameraguyfresno]

actually Genji...since you don't get it.while I listed my reason so simply...i wonder if you really understand how Boomer can be the fifth too...

this is just for fun..not a personal attack. :)

[genji2000]

I love this discussion!

how about this? the final five are fundamentally different. and we don't know or fully understand all the differences so we cannot logically put any limits on what they can or cannot do hence we can't say: she can't be the fifth because she's a cylon..because...ta day...the final five are fundamentally different.

Ta dah! This is what Proxenus said an hour before you, here:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=18843&postcount=39

That's much the same as Wouter putting forward Boomer as the Final Cylon, and then you picking it up and scuttling back to imdb with it (ooh shiny) two days later, without any comprehension of the plausible arguments for the case, which I outlined in my horribly long post earlier today.

I think the D'Anna dialogue was a contrived hint. You are correct to say how did D'Anna know what the hybrid? The writers do that...like we all knew Lee was going to be president..they way they concocted how he became president was lame.

lol. Your English isn't bad. What's your first language?

Do you understand the meaning of verisimilitude? D'Anna couldn't refer to the clawing toward the light utterance because her character had no knowledge of it. The single point you made to attempt to convince me that you'd thought of this idea yourself was false. You got it completely wrong. So it goes into the bin along with your other three 'reasons'.

Now if the fifth cylon can't be a cylon?

What are you asking? What does that mean?

Why can the final four cylon be cylons if they are human?

They can't and they're not. They're Cylons. They "have been from the start".

They age like humans and mate like humans. They've passed every "test" of being human assuming Anders and Tyrol would have taken some sort of physical for sport or military enlistment. Just the same as Boomer would have "passed" sort of test being a cylon. Remember we don't know all the differences of the final four so we can't lay limits upon them. Reasonable?

When were these tests conducted? What are you talking about?

Cavil can't be the fifth because he wasn't there from the beginning as far as I remember.


Taken as a whole...Boomer is the best candidate.

You keep saying this, preceded by an avalanche of drivel and misunderstandings.


an aside:

"That was my initial problem. You joined the forum yesterday and immediately posted a new thread without finding your way around and seeing that a) we already had a Final Cylon thread, to which your comments should have been added, and b) we've already discussed Boomer at length, so it wasn't a new concept."

why is this a "problem"? I read a few of the threads on this forum before I posted but no one put Boomer and did a clear listing like i did i.e listing #1-#4 reason with break downs.

We generally don't feel the need to discuss things at that level on this forum. Nor do we post unnecessary threads about issues that are already discussed elsewhere in order to call attention to ourselves.

Of the five points in your original post only one of them (the third) is valid. The others are either wrong or banal.

yeah it' s not a new concept but..like i said...the generic standards I listed are met.

As they are by half of the characters in the show. Those two points are pre-requisites and don't need to be mentioned.

And I explained my deductions.

When? Where? You haven't given one single plausible or logical piece of evidence.

I'm not here to steal anyone's thunder...we win nothing..hahaha..I'm just excited to feel to deciphered something logically.

You didn't. You deciphered it by the copy and paste method.

This implication is seen a few times where you mentioned you cannot see why I believe Boomer is the fifth cylone when I simplistic listed #1 reason, #2 reason, #3 reason and so on.

Only one of which was valid.

Your wrote: " I'm even less convinced of his reasons for spotting Boomer as the Final Cylon." See #1-4. Is there a contest i didn't know about? hahahaha Actually you have not really clearly or succinctly stated why you think Boomer is the fifth.

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=18804&postcount=35
If you need it in baby talk then you're on the wrong forum.

If we can stretch just a tad and believe that the fifth can be a cylon then the case is pretty rock solid. Personally I think it's harder to make a case that Boomer is not a cylon than to say the final cylon is fundarmentally different and can be a cylon and the fifth cylon.

This is not a personal attack you understand. It's just an observation.

[cameraguyfresno]

wow you win..you win whatever geek award you're looking for. I'm just here to discuss something and if you need to think I copied and pasted something to make yourself feel better...so be it. how or why I copy and paste something from you or wouter if I don't believe fundamentally what you are saying? you're just confusing yourself! This is an awesome show and it's exciting to come to the realization that the writers put some master plan together finally.


English is my third language thank you very much. and honestly pointing simple things out to you is like explaining to a blind man what the sunset is like. if you can't understand the points I set forth then sorry...sometimes I get bored speaking as if I'm speaking to a 4 year old.

this is just an observation...have fun and get a chill pill buddy.

[cameraguyfresno]

or is this a joke because genji is wrong in every conceivable way nearly on every point. it seems every single point he makes is totally wrong hahaha...too many to list.

well..one for example: "We generally don't feel the need to discuss things at that level on this forum." Listing reasons when I make a statement is too simplistic and logical? I should make half statements through several threads and have you take all my threads as a whole to understand what I'm saying?

Well in my world..you make a premise and you try to prove it.

We set conditions for the fifth then deduce which one member fits all the conditions and is the best one. Sorry I'm not abreast of another better system. If that is too hard for you to comprehend..then sorry i can't talk to you because your set of logic is different from me and the rest of the world.

this obviously must be a joke...okay...I give.

[Xenon242]

Settle down, lads ...

[cameraguyfresno]

agreed...hey I'm just here to discuss some ideas on my down time :)

[Xenon242]

Yup! At the end of the day, it's just a TV programme someone else (not us) is writing, so we can debate ourselves blue in the face, we're probably going to all be wrong about something (well, probably a lot of things) because this is RDM's vehicle, and we're just in it for the ride.

And for the clones. Right, genji? ;)

[Proxenus]

"Fundamentally different" does not mean "wholly different" and it certainly doesn't mean "physically different". The fundamental difference is likely to be in the model's consciousness.

Actually, we "know" they have physical differences. Remember that, at the very least, Colonel Tigh (if not Chief Tyrol) went through Gaius Baltar's "Cylon Detector" (patent pending) and probably came up negative. While it is possible that Mr. Baltar decided not reveal that Colonel Tigh was a Cylon, it is unlikely given his discussion with Caprica Six on the Cylon Basestar (about only seeing the same seven models).

So, at least Colonel Tigh (and possibly Chief Tyrol) are physically similar to humans as to not reveal their true nature in the "Cylon Detector."

Also, there's a possible debate as to their physical limitations. While Tory Foster exhibited a high degree of strength, Colonel Tigh did not when he fought Admiral Adama. Now, it could be that Colonel Tigh's heart wasn't in the fight and he held back, but it did not appear that he did.

The development of the humanoid Cylons is far too mysterious to say this or that would or wouldn't have happened. All manner of explanations could cover this. A number of people on this forum reckon the Final Five influenced or even instigated the development of the humanoid Cylons, in which case they could easily have found a way to make an Eight body capable of hosting a Seven consciousness.

While this is possible, it seems a bit contrived in my opinion. Almost like the last episode of Star Trek: Voyager (where the series was ending and they made up a bunch of crap to get the USS Voyager back to Earth).

In my experience, the simplest answer is generally the best answer. In this regard, you have to assume that all Cylons are downloaded from the same seven basal personality constructs. From there, each Cylon model will change based on their experiences. However, when each Cylon is downloaded, their new experiences are saved for later access.

If Boomer is the Final Cylon, it would stand to reason that someone on the main Cylon fleet has figured it out because her consciousness was saved to the "server." Or, at the minimum, noted unusual streams in the file such as memories of Earth.

I'm not saying that Boomer is not the Final Cylon. I'm just pointing out the difficulties in that rationale.

[genji2000]

Actually, we "know" they have physical differences.

And I've said so. I didn't say "fundamental differences" means they don't have physical differences. I said it doesn't mean they surely are physically different. We can't assume that because they are F5 that this is the reason they can procreate with S7. It could simply be that Tigh loves Caprica Six because he sees Ellen in her.

Remember that, at the very least, Colonel Tigh (if not Chief Tyrol) went through Gaius Baltar's "Cylon Detector" (patent pending) and probably came up negative. While it is possible that Mr. Baltar decided not reveal that Colonel Tigh was a Cylon, it is unlikely given his discussion with Caprica Six on the Cylon Basestar (about only seeing the same seven models).

So, at least Colonel Tigh (and possibly Chief Tyrol) are physically similar to humans as to not reveal their true nature in the "Cylon Detector."

I think Baltar just didn't reveal anyone as a Cylon. For him what difference does it make whether they're Cylon or human? He had no allegiance to the colonials.

Also, there's a possible debate as to their physical limitations. While Tory Foster exhibited a high degree of strength, Colonel Tigh did not when he fought Admiral Adama. Now, it could be that Colonel Tigh's heart wasn't in the fight and he held back, but it did not appear that he did.

Or that Adama got in a lucky kick and Tigh came to his senses.

While this is possible, it seems a bit contrived in my opinion. Almost like the last episode of Star Trek: Voyager (where the series was ending and they made up a bunch of crap to get the USS Voyager back to Earth).

I'm just saying that that period in the development of the humanoid models is too murky to state that this or that happened.

In my experience, the simplest answer is generally the best answer.

But not necessarily the right answer. If it's a complex question then the answer is likely to be equally complex.

In this regard, you have to assume that all Cylons are downloaded from the same seven basal personality constructs.

This is one of the two main hurdles of the Boomer idea. Its solution is that the Boomer consciousness is so similar to an Eight's (the 1% difference) that it is undetectable by Cylon investigation. Accepting that analysis may come down to one's personal preference for science or fiction. If you can't buy it then I can't tell you it's plausible. I do buy it.

From there, each Cylon model will change based on their experiences. However, when each Cylon is downloaded, their new experiences are saved for later access.

If Boomer is the Final Cylon, it would stand to reason that someone on the main Cylon fleet has figured it out because her consciousness was saved to the "server." Or, at the minimum, noted unusual streams in the file such as memories of Earth.

> if x=final_cylon then go to {ignore}

I'm not saying that Boomer is not the Final Cylon. I'm just pointing out the difficulties in that rationale.

I'm not saying she is, but I think the difficulties are more rationally explained than e.g. "the Cylons substituted a clone for baby Lee".

[The Dirt]

Do we really want BSG to go to such preposterous soap opera means to explain something? If Boomer is the final cylon because of some crazy techno-babble explanation worthy of a cheap 80s soap opera, then I'm done with the show. Thankfully, the writers are smarter than that. No offense... but I find this hard to swallow.

[Proxenus]

And I've said so. I didn't say "fundamental differences" means they don't have physical differences. I said it doesn't mean they surely are physically different. We can't assume that because they are F5 that this is the reason they can procreate with S7. It could simply be that Tigh loves Caprica Six because he sees Ellen in her.

And I'm pointing that the Four are physically different than the Seven. If they were not physically different than the Seven, they would have shown up on Baltar's "Cylon Detector" (patent pending).

I think Baltar just didn't reveal anyone as a Cylon. For him what difference does it make whether they're Cylon or human? He had no allegiance to the colonials.

I agree with you on that point. However, I'm refering to the conversation between Caprica Six and Mr. Baltar on the Cylon Basestar in Torn (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Torn). He states that while the Cylons were on New Caprica and during his time on the Basestar, he's only seen seven humanoid Cylon models.

If he knew that Colonel Tigh or Chief Tyrol were also Cylons through his test, he would have said nine instead of seven. He had no motivation (at least at that time) to not reveal that Colonel Tigh or Chief Tyrol were Cylons if he knew it (and that was an akward sentence).

Given that the test is based on chemical reactions to samples, it is safe to assume that Boomer (who did test positive) was fundamentally different than Colonel Tigh (who we have to assume did not). Thus, we can assume that Colonel Tigh was physically different than Boomer. That physical difference would be a fundamental difference.


Or that Adama got in a lucky kick and Tigh came to his senses.

I concede. I was just pointing out that it was debatable.

I'm just saying that that period in the development of the humanoid models is too murky to state that this or that happened.

I agree, but we can make some assumptions based on the show's statements.

But not necessarily the right answer. If it's a complex question then the answer is likely to be equally complex.

Again, I agree. My point is, however, the more you try to make the answer complex, the more difficult it is to cover all the possible angles. If you keep it simple, you can adjust easier to new information.

This is one of the two main hurdles of the Boomer idea. Its solution is that the Boomer consciousness is so similar to an Eight's (the 1% difference) that it is undetectable by Cylon investigation. Accepting that analysis may come down to one's personal preference for science or fiction. If you can't buy it then I can't tell you it's plausible. I do buy it.

> if x=final_cylon then go to {ignore}

It is plausible, but at some point people are going to say "that's just ridiculous" and walk away. I nearly did it when Colonel Tigh was revealed to be a Cylon. There are so many problems with Colonel Tigh being a Cylon that I cannot discuss here. If they reveal Boomer to be the Final Cylon, it woudl be a ridiculous turn of events and they'd have to jump through a ton of hoops to make it work (or the ever favorite, "God did it").

I'm not saying she is, but I think the difficulties are more rationally explained than e.g. "the Cylons substituted a clone for baby Lee".

Oh, I agree with you there. The "baby Cylon Lee" is preposterous also.

[genji2000]

And I'm pointing that the Four are physically different than the Seven. If they were not physically different than the Seven, they would have shown up on Baltar's "Cylon Detector" (patent pending).

I'm not disagreeing! :lol: You forgot underline. Physiology is not the be all and end all is all I'm saying.

I agree with you on that point. However, I'm refering to the conversation between Caprica Six and Mr. Baltar on the Cylon Basestar in Torn (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Torn). He states that while the Cylons were on New Caprica and during his time on the Basestar, he's only seen seven humanoid Cylon models.

If he knew that Colonel Tigh or Chief Tyrol were also Cylons through his test, he would have said nine instead of seven. He had no motivation (at least at that time) to not reveal that Colonel Tigh or Chief Tyrol were Cylons if he knew it (and that was an akward sentence).

Ah right. Yes. Fair enough. Did Tigh actually get the Cylon test? Was it at the end of Tigh Me Up Tigh Me Down? I don't remember him having the test but I probably just didn't notice it. I don't think Tyrol was ever tested.

Given that the test is based on chemical reactions to samples, it is safe to assume that Boomer (who did test positive) was fundamentally different than Colonel Tigh (who we have to assume did not). Thus, we can assume that Colonel Tigh was physically different than Boomer. That physical difference would be a fundamental difference.

Yes. I totally agree. That's spot on. A fundamental difference. But not necessarily the fundamental difference that RDM referred to. :devil:

I concede. I was just pointing out that it was debatable.

I agree, but we can make some assumptions based on the show's statements.

Why not? It is a forum.

Again, I agree. My point is, however, the more you try to make the answer complex, the more difficult it is to cover all the possible angles. If you keep it simple, you can adjust easier to new information.

It is plausible, but at some point people are going to say "that's just ridiculous" and walk away. I nearly did it when Colonel Tigh was revealed to be a Cylon. There are so many problems with Colonel Tigh being a Cylon that I cannot discuss here. If they reveal Boomer to be the Final Cylon, it woudl be a ridiculous turn of events and they'd have to jump through a ton of hoops to make it work (or the ever favorite, "God did it").

Well there you have it. Tigh as a Cylon? If they execute it well enough, with an exciting soundtrack and Hulk Hogan in the driving seat ("You are the Fifth") then we'll buy anything they're selling I reckon. For all we know the Writers sit around smoking pot asking each other what the most ridiculous reveal they can get away with is and yet make us all go "whoa!"

Oh, I agree with you there. The "baby Cylon Lee" is preposterous also.

What do you mean "also"? Cheek.

[cameraguyfresno]

is there any proof that Baltar's cylon detecting machine works. his personality is basically saying what people want to hear and making himself feel important then putting blame on something or someone else when he or his work fails. i never really thought it worked. if there are other references that it did indeed worked let me know.

[Xenon242]

is there any proof that Baltar's cylon detecting machine works. his personality is basically saying what people want to hear and making himself feel important then putting blame on something or someone else when he or his work fails. i never really thought it worked. if there are other references that it did indeed worked let me know.

I believe it worked; Boomer showed red across the board. My thought was always that he knew it would work, because he had a vested interest in covering his arse for fear of being discovered as having aided and abetted the Cylon attack on the colonies, somehow. Particularly since he wasn't entirely sure of his own nature, by virtue of Head 6's presence.

[Jason1975]

I believe it worked; Boomer showed red across the board. My thought was always that he knew it would work, because he had a vested interest in covering his arse for fear of being discovered as having aided and abetted the Cylon attack on the colonies, somehow. Particularly since he wasn't entirely sure of his own nature, by virtue of Head 6's presence.

Good Explanation. :thumbsup:

[cameraguyfresno]

yeap good explaination. this is why good friends of mine should get me the complete dvd collection. :lol:

Good Explanation. :thumbsup:

[Proxenus]

Ah right. Yes. Fair enough. Did Tigh actually get the Cylon test? Was it at the end of Tigh Me Up Tigh Me Down? I don't remember him having the test but I probably just didn't notice it. I don't think Tyrol was ever tested.

There's no direct statement that Colonel Tigh was tested. However, the CIC staff was high priority for testing, with Admiral Adama being first. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that Tigh was tested early on.

As for Chief Tyrol, I am less sure if he would have been tested. However, he is in a key position, so it would not be infeasible that he be tested early on. However, on the other hand, Chief Tyrol kept having dreams in Lay Down Your Burdens that he was a Cylon. If he was tested and found negative, his fears would have been eased. On the other hand, this is after Boomer shot Admiral Adama and the test was deemed a failure (though, it does really work), so he may have discounted the test.

Either way, I'm confident in saying that Colonel Tigh was tested and not revealed as a Cylon whereas Boomer was tested and revealed as a Cylon.

[Wouter]

I seem to have missed quite the thread here! I'm happy that support is quite strong for the Boomer theory here, the theory is not popular on most other boards (and not even mentioned on scifi at all AFAIK). By the way, Boomer was in range of a resurrectio ship when she died in early S2. The resurrection ship that was discovered by Pegasus' Raptors had been following Galactica around.

My posts were mentioned a number of times. Almost all were made in the spoiler forum (allthough the final Cylon-thread of that forum has been moved to this one now), and you may need to check the option in your profile to enter that forum to read them.

I agree with cameraguyfresno that the case for Boomer is one of elimination of other major candidates and of noticing that she conforms to all the known requirements for being the final Cylon (besides the problem that she already is a Cylon herself). And it's D'Anna's "there are four in the fleet" that puts Boomer on the front row of the possible candidates. However, I was already toying with this idea way back when I first heard the Razor phrophecy, combined with RDM's comments on the last supper picture. Back then, Zarek, Gaeta, Dualla were stronger candidates though, without the need for explanations why they already are Cylons.

After "Revelations", those candidates have a big problem though since working around D'Anna's statement is not easy (saying that's she's wrong or lying also requires a convoluted explanation). Characters that still remain (could conform to D'Anna's statement) are either dead, believed dead, left behind or it's Seelix (who wasn't shown in "revelations" IIRC, so she could have been taken captive by Cavil's forces potentially, or have been killed). Seelix is a good candidate except for being a fairly minor character; IMO she fails the "emotional response" that some of the producers promise for the reveal. The character has nothing going against her, but no hints for her either. With Boomer OTOH, there are some possible hints. What made me suspicious to start with was the combination of the promised "Boomer will be back, big time" and the subsequent treatment of the character in S4 as piece of the decor surrounding Cavil. Boomer has been written in a weird way since early S3, but if Taylor's promise is accurate then they haven't given up on the character as seems to be the case at first sight.

My arguments why Boomer could be the fifth, and is even the prime candidate now IMO:
-she is in the series from the beginning/S1 (this is not really required though as Taylor only said they were having a character in mind by late S1 that could still change)
-her reveal could/would be dramatic to viewers and characters alike; Boomer has strong ties with lots of main characters (Adama, Starbuck, Tyrol, Tigh, Helo, Athena, Cap-6, D'Anna, Gaeta, Racetrack, even Anders and deckhands like Seelix to a lesser extent)
-her reveal would be a major surprise for the fans, explaining why so many guesses "aren't even close"
-Boomer fits the "razor" prophecy well; she seems to be in need of redemption (being a cylon, shooting Adama, being on New Caprica, turning her back on the humans, siding with Cavil) and deep down she would probably long for her old life
-Boomer is the only known sleeper agent, other than the Dylan 4. All the other Cylon agents that we ever heard of were aware
-Boomer is not in the fleet as of "revelations", and since D'Anna has seen her this would explain why she is so sure there are only 4 in the fleet
-A big role for her was promised to us for S4, and they haven't delivered yet. Making her the final Cylon would explain the promise.
-D'Anna is surprised when she sees one of the FF Cylons in the temple vision: "You? Forgive me, I had no idea". Anders fits, but Boomer perhaps even more, as she would be surprised at seeing a known Cylon, and Anders may not yet have been decided on as a Cylon by the writers at that point


There are a few things that could be possible winks from the writers, allthough they don't mean anything by themselves:
-as noted, the suggestive swelling of the music when D'Anna turns her attention to Boomer in "The hub". "Something shiny" is a strange comment; I though D'Anna was perhaps thinking of Tyrol there (who she knows is FFer), allthough as an insult it seems way of the mark for Boomer (though not for the 8 line).

-Gaeta's song, while only described as a longing love song by Bear McCreary, has lyrics that could well be about the final Cylon - who may well be female and may have to "please some day wake" if she is a sleeper, as I suppose the 5th will be needed for something important. "Alone she sleep in the shirt of man" is a line that seems well suited to Boomer (especially her time right after her first download)

-In "revelations", when Tigh confesses to Adama, he responds to Adama's question "switched on!?" with "like Boomer .... I'm one of the five". Of course, the five comment is separate from "I was switched on like Boomer", but it's funny to notice the editing of this line when you're thinking of Boomer as the final Cylon. They could easily have avoided this effect where a promo could make it seem like Tigh is saying Boomer is one of the five, so it may be writers playing a joke on the audience

-early on in S4, when the 268 alliance first goes to Cavil to tell him about the Final Five being in the human fleet, the excited 8 asks "do you think they look anything like us?". Could be another wink - if Boomer is one of the FF, well, she looks exactly like her.


There are problems with the theory though:
-Caprica-6 says she can feel the 5 are close. But the problem here is, none of the 7 actually seems to "feel" or otherwise recognize the FF Cylons - witness Leoben with Anders, Natalie with Tigh and Tory, and I don't think Cap-6 recognized Tigh as cylon either, allthough this is left a bit ambiguous. I think Cap-6's feeling is coming from her dream of the opera house, where she has seen the final five looming over her and Baltar and Hera. D'Anna OTOH, clearly knows her stuff: she recognized Tory and Tigh with no problems, and she says 4.

-D'Anna first offends Boomer and then ignores her, on the hub. However, Cavil is with them when she wakes up. Cavil, who has proven to be allergic to attempts to uncover the identity of the FF. Would D'Anna risk revealing the identity of one of them to Cavil, especially one of them who may be in his power? How would he react?

It is possible that D'Anna is convinced that Boomer isn't aware what she is (assuming she is the final one; she would then be a double sleeper) and is very disappointed that she is in Cavil's camp. Since they have a very difficult relationship and she has to kill Cavil to be able to speak freely (which Boomer seemed not to appreciate to much), I could see her giving up Boomer as a lost cause for the time being (until she wakes up, at least, and if not than four final Cylons in the hand is better than 5 out in space).

-Boomer is a Cylon already. This is the major problem with her and the reason many think it downright ridiculous to even start to consider her. However, keep in mind we know little about the origin of the seven, how they came up with the numbering, what the differences are with the five and also that the knowledge of the cylons themselves is limited. They can hardly think about the FF, and the fact that they did not build a backup for the hub (and the suggestion is they can't build a new one either) indicates they may not even know their own technology, at least the download process, very well. Did they inherit the hub, rather than build it themselves? The inhibitions regarding FF-thoughts and the "zombie" mode of sleeper agents also shows us that Cylons can be programmed to do (or not do) things without being aware of it, or even programmed not to think about something.

We know there are 12 models, but this knowledge comes from the Cylons themselves, and can be flawed. We don't know for sure who made them and what the relation between the 5 and the 7 is. Nowhere does it say that all those models must have a different appearance; one model could be a slight modification of another, as far as we know, with the difference being possibly only in the "software", the personality template (which is separate from memories). Such duplicate models could be compatible with each other for download and memory sharing, while still maintaining a different base personality and possible embedded (sleeper) programming. And their origins would be different, too. There could even no difference at all, if the 8s are pure copies of a FF model; origin and experiences would be the only difference with the original. And there would be only 11 models (Cap-6 is mistaken on the five being close, too, so why not about this?) then.

Names can be given arbitrarily; suppose the FF models existed long before the others, then whoever came round to make the next seven ("the original or not-so-original programmers") may have opted for six new models and one copy (perhaps slightly improved/changed) of an existing one. Or, it may have been planned from way back by someone/something manipulating everything (what happened to Kara? What is going on with the headpeople?), and exactly to fool the seven they introduced a "double" model with the purpose of having an agent who could assume their identity.

The body that Boomer downloads into, is not even necessarily that of an 8 (allthough it could be if the difference is purely in the part that can be downloaded). It is sufficient that there is a code embedded in the control software of the download process that makes sure a subtly different (say, brain difference only) body is used when Boomer has to download, and the same hidden code would make sure that those "special" bodies (of which each resurrection ship could have a few available hidden among many 8 reserve bodies) are not used for regular 8s. The Cylons of the 7 wouldn't notice anything if they don't understand and check the process 100%, and even then they may have been programmed to simply ignore it if they did notice, like they are programmed not to think about the FF.

The same trick could allow "dead" characters to download using resurrection technology of the seven, allthough in this case the cylons really would have to be programmed to ignore the visible presence of unfamiliar bodies in their stash (not to mention, said body coming to life).

-Another big problem for Boomer though, are some of her actions as sleeper agent in S1. Presumably, her even deeper FF programming would have stopped her from doing very bad things to the fleet, allthough she has to maintain her cover wrt the Cylons of being their agent, so she has to do something at times. Shooting Adama could be explainable if the FF plan involved the arrow of Apollo being brought to Kobol (which would not have happened with Adama in control), but the sabotage of the water supply serves no FF purpose I could think of. Ot it would require them (whoever is behind the FF) to be able to foresee that a water source would be near and that Zarek would come into play this way, but that is a stretch as Pythia and the hybrids would be jealous of their predictive powers.

Now, the possible explanations for Boomer not being an 8 (or the 8s being a copy of one of the final cylon models, so there are only 11 total really) are quite convoluted, but all other candidates require probably equally convoluted explanations as to how they're back from the dead or why D'Anna doesn't finger them as final Cylon in "Revelations". Seelix is a different case, but this character seems not important enough to warrant being the final cylon - and if she is the final Cylon, she should be either in D'Anna's hands now on the baseship or she is missing after the attack on the hub. If she was treated like Hot Dog and the rest of the hostages (and returned to Galactica afterwards), then she can't be the final Cylon.

[Wouter]

Either way, I'm confident in saying that Colonel Tigh was tested and not revealed as a Cylon whereas Boomer was tested and revealed as a Cylon.
You are very probably correct, another problem for Boomer.

However, Baltar wasn't honest in reporting his results (Boomer got the green light, as far as everyone was told). One reason why he didn't was that he feared the command structure was infiltrated by the Cylons, and he should wait before he had tested the lot of them to be sure the Cylons wouldn't take him and his detector out (now they would think it ineffective). Take them all out in one go. Then he said everybody would get the green light, at the end of "tigh me up, Tigh me down.

So, did he test Tigh and was the result as red as Boomer, but he just didn't tell anyone? I must admit that it didn't show in his behaviour toward Tigh if so, though. Or did he not test Tigh? In "tigh me up, Tigh me down", his testing priorities kept getting changed between Ellen and Adama sr. . We're sure he tested Ellen (the mysterious "Ill never tell what the result was"); did he get the time to test Tigh himself as well while starting over and over with the tests on Adama and Ellen? At the end of that episode, he decided to quit actually running the tests, IIRC, so Tigh may have been cutting it close either way.

[cameraguyfresno]

perfect...the often mentioned and revered wouter. it totally and augments what many were thinking but put comprehensively succinct. :) thanks!

for me before revelations and D'Anna proclamation the field was pretty wide open - zarek, fan favorite Romo, curiously often mentioned Cally and Zak among others. with my favorite being Seelix.

wouter your reputation is well deserved indeed.

[Pnutmaster]

Kobol's Last Gleaming Part 1 contains a sit down between Baltar and Boomer, with "Head Six" leaving comments from the celestial peanut gallery.


Head Six: Her model is weak, always has been, but in the end she'll carry out her mission.
I read that as a disparaging remark made about the Eights. From a writer's standpoint, it would seem to help the viewer accept that both Boomer and Athena are multi-layered Cylons questioning their protocols. It's, as "Head Six" says, part of their model.

Let's recall that this remark is made by the ever omniscient "Head Six" ("Head Baltar", but the same entity IMO) who knew that Tori, for one, was "special". Surely, if Boomer is the Seventh model, "Head Six" would know, right?

Boomer is special in her own right and has reason to return prominently in Season Four. She was the lover of Tyrol and a valued member of the crew. She's changed allegiances before and can change again. The fans will want her story wrapped up, whether she's the Final Cylon or not.

[Proxenus]

Good Explanation. :thumbsup:

You are very probably correct, another problem for Boomer.

However, Baltar wasn't honest in reporting his results (Boomer got the green light, as far as everyone was told). One reason why he didn't was that he feared the command structure was infiltrated by the Cylons, and he should wait before he had tested the lot of them to be sure the Cylons wouldn't take him and his detector out (now they would think it ineffective). Take them all out in one go. Then he said everybody would get the green light, at the end of "tigh me up, Tigh me down.

So, did he test Tigh and was the result as red as Boomer, but he just didn't tell anyone? I must admit that it didn't show in his behaviour toward Tigh if so, though. Or did he not test Tigh? In "tigh me up, Tigh me down", his testing priorities kept getting changed between Ellen and Adama sr. . We're sure he tested Ellen (the mysterious "Ill never tell what the result was"); did he get the time to test Tigh himself as well while starting over and over with the tests on Adama and Ellen? At the end of that episode, he decided to quit actually running the tests, IIRC, so Tigh may have been cutting it close either way.

If you read one of my prior posts, I answer the question about Colonel Tigh being tested and coming up positive. When Mr. Baltar is on the Cylon Basestar, he mentions to Caprica 6 that he's only seen 7 models of humanoid Cylons. At that point, he does not know anything about the Final Five except that he knows there are twelve. If Colonel Tigh was tested and came up postive, Mr. Baltar had no reason to not reveal it to Caprica 6. Thus, you can assume that Mr. Baltar knows of no other models than the Seven.

As far as Colonel Tigh being tested, we have no direct proof. However, as I mentioned earlier, the CIC staff was first on priority to be tested. It is not unreasonable to assume that Colonel Tigh was tested unless he avoided it, purposefully or subconsciously.

[Starstruck]

Yay, I'm glad to see your theory by you. You apparently haven't started any threads, so finding your theory has been a challenge.

It's well thought-out and makes sense and could be it.

There are big problems, though.

One problem you discuss is the downloading problem. Why would a final fiver be able to download into a seven body, specifically, an 8 model? We know they're "fundamentally different" but we don't know how. The evidence we've seen has made many of us guess that part of the fundamental difference is that the final five don't resurrect. That may not be true. Perhaps the final five can download, as you say, but your explanation, that there are slightly different bodies on the resurrection ship, and the seven just don't notice seems wacky. The seven know everything about their ships. Why would they not know this? This seems like way too big of a thing to suspend disbelief about and accept.

The known models planted Boomer with the humans to be a sleeper agent. This was planned and known about. Her false memories were implanted. They sent the signal to wake her up. My point is she was not woken up by the nebulla or a beacon like the other four. If she is the final, she must have been planted twice, first by the five with the seven, and then by the seven with the humans. What a big coincidence that the seven chose this particular one of the 8s to put on BSG! Another huge coincidence for us to stomach. Not that BSG hasn't had other huge coincidences.

Perhaps the thing that makes it hardest for me to believe it's Boomer is D'anna's reaction to her. Boomer is one of the final five, a special one since she was separated from the other five, and D'anna doesn't even speak to her after killing Cavil? This seems wrong. I think she would have chased her down and wanted to go with her. Once the humans came to save her, she would have wanted to find Boomer to save her as well. The fact that neither happened made it seems D'anna didn't care one way or the other about Boomer.

None of these kill the theory. They're just a few arguments against it.

[Pnutmaster]

This seems wrong. I think she would have chased her down and wanted to go with her. Once the humans came to save her, she would have wanted to find Boomer to save her as well. The fact that neither happened made it seems D'anna didn't care one way or the other about Boomer.


A very good point. D'Anna had no way of knowing that Boomer would escape the Resurrection Hub alive after the humans arrived. Hell, I would have assumed Boomer died on the Resurrection Ship if there weren't official comments about her return in the second half of the season.

[Wouter]

A very good point. D'Anna had no way of knowing that Boomer would escape the Resurrection Hub alive after the humans arrived. Hell, I would have assumed Boomer died on the Resurrection Ship if there weren't official comments about her return in the second half of the season.
There are official comments about that? I think Jane Espenson suggested strongly that she survived, but that she would return to the story?
Having shown her running, presumably either to a transport or to resurrect Cavil as fast as possible (giving him priority or something), suggested she would make it off on time anyway. Else we would have gotten a short death scene I think (the way she has been written lately, probably her tripping accidentally and breaking her neck). :mad:

If you read one of my prior posts, I answer the question about Colonel Tigh being tested and coming up positive. When Mr. Baltar is on the Cylon Basestar, he mentions to Caprica 6 that he's only seen 7 models of humanoid Cylons. At that point, he does not know anything about the Final Five except that he knows there are twelve. If Colonel Tigh was tested and came up postive, Mr. Baltar had no reason to not reveal it to Caprica 6. Thus, you can assume that Mr. Baltar knows of no other models than the Seven.

You're right. No positive results then, not on Ellen either.


Perhaps the final five can download, as you say, but your explanation, that there are slightly different bodies on the resurrection ship, and the seven just don't notice seems wacky. The seven know everything about their ships. Why would they not know this? This seems like way too big of a thing to suspend disbelief about and accept. .
They may know their baseships (allthough lots of its operation is left to the hybrids), but it is curious that the hub is a one-of-a-kind. No backups? No replacement can be build? Why not, they should have build the one in the first place, and they have plenty of baseships so no lack of resources and labour. They also don't fully understand their purporse/origin/programming, as the rebels wanted to meet the final five to find out more about that. So, I'm not sure they know everything about the resurrection process. I also don't think the other 4 can download; they may lack compatible bodies. If Boomer is not an 8, at least this model is very close to hers.


The known models planted Boomer with the humans to be a sleeper agent. This was planned and known about. Her false memories were implanted. They sent the signal to wake her up. My point is she was not woken up by the nebula or a beacon like the other four. If she is the final, she must have been planted twice, first by the five with the seven, and then by the seven with the humans. What a big coincidence that the seven chose this particular one of the 8s to put on BSG! Another huge coincidence for us to stomach.
True. I suppose the presence of a higher power should be in place here (in my theory, the Final Cylon is even less aware than the other 4 so the mastermind is an outside force, "the original programmer" or "god" or whatever), or it doesn't quite work.

Then again, Boomer may not have been actually placed by the 7. If this mysterious force has access to the programming of the 7 (on the level that can stop them thinking about the FF at all), they could have programmed them with false memories of sending out Boomer as an agent, while Boomer actually really grew up with the humans as much as the other four did. Or, they did send her out to be an agent, but because of hidden instructions in their programming.


Perhaps the thing that makes it hardest for me to believe it's Boomer is D'anna's reaction to her. Boomer is one of the final five, a special one since she was separated from the other five, and D'anna doesn't even speak to her after killing Cavil? This seems wrong. I think she would have chased her down and wanted to go with her. Once the humans came to save her, she would have wanted to find Boomer to save her as well. The fact that neither happened made it seems D'anna didn't care one way or the other about Boomer.

Also true. Only explanation I can give is that D'Anna had no idea how to convince Boomer to come with her, as she is likely to disbelief anything she says (they are borderline enemies, not helped by killing Cavil). Trying to follow her may have resulted in a fight, as Boomer would feel threatened.

She could have asked Helo to look for her though, I suppose, and she didn't seem devastated by the possible loss of one of the precious final five Cylons either.

It's a shame we will have to wait until well into next year before we'll know for sure. I just hope that the writers will have credible explanations, whoever it turns out to be.

[Jason1975]

There are problems with the theory though:
-Caprica-6 says she can feel the 5 are close. But the problem here is, none of the 7 actually seems to "feel" or otherwise recognize the FF Cylons - witness Leoben with Anders, Natalie with Tigh and Tory, and I don't think Cap-6 recognized Tigh as cylon either, allthough this is left a bit ambiguous. I think Cap-6's feeling is coming from her dream of the opera house, where she has seen the final five looming over her and Baltar and Hera. D'Anna OTOH, clearly knows her stuff: she recognized Tory and Tigh with no problems, and she says 4.



Caprica six felt that the five are close. She did not see what they look like.

After watching Faith again, I came up with this theory,

each human and cylon is divided into a spirit and a body:


the spirit is the memory, personality, essence, soul. You cannot see the spirit but you might be able to feel them.



the body is the DNA, looks, build, the vessel that carries the spirit, what dies. You can see them.

Somehow the cylons are or were capable of uploading and downloading part or all of the spirit from one body to the next.

So I am saying that the spirit of the fifth and the original body of the fifth have been separated.

So, Caprica Six can feel the spirits of the five are close. She does not know anything about the what the five look look like, part of the body.

D'Anna saw what each of the final five originally look like and looks are part of the body. That why she can recognize them. Usually, this would be enough. Unless, the original body of the fifth cylon died.


So, that why I believe that both of them are telling the truth or believe they are telling the truth.

[alpha5099]

After reading a post of Wouter's the other day, and mulling over the idea a fair amount since then, I'm pretty much convinced that Boomer is the best candidate for the Final Cylon. (For the record, my former favored Final Cylon was Lee.) I had heard idle theories that one of the Significant Seven might end up being the Final Cylon before, but most of those sounded ridiculous and unconvincing. But once I started thinking about all the evidence and the potential dramatic payoff of Boomer, I was sold. Most of what's convinced me has already been stated in this thread, but there's a couple points I'd like to mention:

• Genji, just a correction: "Shiny" is from Firefly, not Buffy. And I can't see anyway it would be a reference, just a coincident.

• Also, I have to question Genji's rebuttal to camera's point about D'Anna's "shiny" line (which I think is a very good catch: obviously meant to sound like an insult but might be a clue). Yes, D'Anna has no conscious knowledge of the First Hybrid's monologue, so she wasn't necessarily consciously making the connection when she said it, but that doesn't mean that her line can't have that secondary meaning. The writers can be making that link for the audience, without the characters necessarily knowing exactly what they're implying to us.

• I think this was covered already, but I've always felt that Baltar just completely gave up on actually doing the Cylon tests, and gave everyone a clean bill of humanity. If not, that's a huge shot in the foot for the Boomer theory, as why the heck is she coming up Cylon while Tigh (and maybe Tyrol) came up human? Of course, you could fanwank it to say that Boomer at that point had already downloaded into a Cylon body, and got flagged by the system.

Personally, I go in for a theory where the Final Five work by reincarnation (which, if you think about it, isn't that different from downloading). I've seen a lot of people complaining about this sort of thing, saying it would be a cheat, but I think it's the best explanation for how a bunch of people with very verifiable human histories could be Cylons, whatever that means. Meanwhile, the other Final Five hijacked a Significant Seven body, and tada, Boomer.

[Libran_luv]

I have a theory of my own, and I think the Cylon babies are the clue.

So far, we have two babies born of at least one Cylon parent, and one Cylon who is pregnant.

The two babies are Hera (parents = Athena and Karl "Helo" Agathon) and Nicholas (parents = Cally and Galen "Chief" Tyrol).

In the last episode of Season 4, it was revealed that the Six copy imprisoned on Galactica is pregnant, and the father would be Saul Tigh.

This requires a bit of deductive reasoning, but I think it works. Right now, the common denominator between the Cylon babies appears to be not a Cylon mother, but rather a Cylon father. That we know of, Chief and Tigh are Cylons, and both were able to empregnate a female, whether or not she was Cylon. There is no such constant as to the female. That is, the women who fall pregnant are not necessarily Cylon themselves.

As well, Tigh and Chief are notably of the "final five" order, which separates them from the first seven. As indicated in the first season, Cylons want to reproduce but don't appear to be able. It seems that there has to be some genetic formula that would allow it to happen. My argument is that those in the final five can reproduce, and since there's one of the five left to reveal, we could deduce that Helo is the last.

Now I realize that this is a bit of a stretch, since Helo has been a supporting, albeit strong character. Nothing in his behaviour seems to suggest that he might be a Cylon. Then again, who suspected Chief, or Tigh for that matter?

It seems the writers of the show might not resort to one of the obvious choices for the final Cylon revelation. Admiral Adama, President Roslin, and Kara "Starbuck" Thrace all seem like fairly easy options, and ones that we, in the audience, might expect.

Another reason I think the final five are able to reproduce, where the first seven can't, is that we've been told that they are somehow connected to Earth. I believe that this connection to Earth somehow endows the final five with the ability to reproduce.

I don't believe Boomer/8 can be taken into consideration since she's one of the first seven. She already has a spot in the family tree. It wouldn't make sense to give her two, nor is it necessary, in terms of plot thickness. It would be much more interesting to use another character, especially one we wouldn't expect.

Them's my two cents. Run with it if you want to. :)

[cameraguyfresno]

I do wonder how people can simply dismiss the idea that Boomer can’t be the fifth simply because she is a cylon. How could Anders et al be the final four if they were human?





I want to argue in a general logical supposition as opposed to very detailed and assumed technical science fiction babble on downloads and possible secret imbedded ff orders hidden inside….


We know that the FF are different from the cylons. We are all coming to understand that humans and cylons are overlapping and the differences minute. How can we put limitations without knowing the full limitations of the FF? We can't! I don't think we can assume they can fly or throw fireballs but within the mythology of BSG it's not such a stretch. If we can’t put limitations on the FF then the idea that Boomer can’t be the Fifth fail because we simply don’t know how different the fifth is and their limitations. We are left to the idea that it is possible and NOT impossible. Couple that with all the other conditions met for being the FF…I think we have a very compelling case.


I disagree that Boomer is not even a cylon. I think that argument is used to eradicate the “Boomer can’t be the fifth because she is a cylon.” IMO I believe Boomer to be an 8 like any other 8. She shot Adama because her cylon programming. She is just like any other 8 until she sees the light..or hears the music or is “turned on” to her true self – see the other four where they did everything that humans would do – kill and hate cylons and even kill their most cherished wife because she collaborated with a cylon. The idea here is that the FF all act and cruise in their normal set life until activated. Boomer could be liken to a double agent who in the end works actually works for a third party when she is “activated” and in the meantime works diligently for her “side”. Okay kinda weak analogy but you get the gist of my argument for her behaving what and a cylon would.


An aside before I came to realize Boomer was the Fifth. Many of us had this romantic idea that Boomer would eventually get back with Tyrol and that she was merely playing Cavel and would eventually come back to humanity and or the rebel cylons – since it was said Boomer was to have a big role in season 4. This thought process eventually led to the realization that she is the fifth. It is a big role indeed!


I think some of us may be over thinking it when we add the download process into the mix. Why wasn’t Boomer detected etc? Go back to the general idea that the Final Five are 100% who they are until “activated” for lack of a better word.


Now Starstruck made an excellent observation wondering about the integral scene of Boomer/Cavel and D’Anna in the Hub. Why doesn’t D’Anna just say,”Hey Boomer…you’re it. Our leader – tell us what to do.” I think we would not have a cliff hanger if that scene went that way right? It’s acceptable for us – me to accept that the writers had to put Boomer somewhere else and D’Anna in the arms of Helo and an 8 to meet with Roslin and had to write it that way. If we can accept that taking anti-radiation pills is good enough after a planet wide nuclear bombardment then D’Anna “testing” Boomer or being rude as a ruse to test her is not too far a stretch.
Like I mentioned before many of you are obviously intelligent and sometimes too intelligent creating plots and answers to plot holes that may be too high brow or too high concept for tv writers to put into tv for a tv audience. In the end Boomer is simply the best candidate and the only one that fits the major conditions as well as having a tremendous cinematic pay off for us.


I think we had a little snaffoo earlier but the last posts are excellent and made me very happy to join this forum and really adds to my enjoyment of this excellent show.

[ranvir]

I think the case for Boomer is an interesting and convincing one (the potential foreshadowing of D'Anna's comments was a nice observation, btw). I don't know who the last of the FF is (I suppose if forced to answer I would now say either Boomer or Kendra) and, personally, I don't much feel like going through painstaking analysis in order to come up with a theory that might be completely wrong. That said, good job guys, haha.

Just a quick note on the baby theory... Look at the couples: Caprica (Cylon) and Tigh (Cylon), Athena (Cylon) and Helo (?), Cally (?) and Tyrol (Cylon). So you have both 2 known male Cylons and 2 known female Cylons involved. With equal numbers, it impossible to argue one way or the other whether the males have to be Cylons or not. Same goes with the females.

[Libran_luv]

Just a quick response to Ranvir, the equal numbers don't take into account that we know for certain that Cally is human, and that we don't know that Helo is not a Cylon.

We know Cally is not a Cylon because she's dead by the time D'Anna arrives on Galactica and is ready to identify the FF. D'Anna only identifies 4, leaving one hanging, but essentially implying that one is remains, alive and well.

Cally not being a Cylon is important simply because it means for a baby to come from at least one Cylon parent, the mother does not have to be Cylon. However, we ~do~ know that at least two of the babies had Cylon fathers. And since we don't know for sure that Helo is not a Cylon, it leaves it open.

Let's not forget that Six/Caprica had sex with Gaius Baltar plenty of times (as did D'Anna), and neither Cylon women became pregnant. Perhaps because he's all too human.

[ranvir]

Keep in mind that Baltar is not in the business of making babies. So I'm sure he/they used protection. Maybe the fact that he didn't get Caprica or D'Anna pregnant has nothing to do with humanity and everything to do with condoms.

Technically, we don't know that Cally isn't a Cylon. If anything, I think that D'Anna's comments about the 5th not being on board lends credence to a view that has a dead person as the final skinjob, although it is by no means definite proof. My point is merely that nothing is certain and you can't make a deduction that assumes certainties where there are none. But your idea is interesting and it may be right. Who knows?

[Libran_luv]

Fair enough ;-)

[Jason1975]

I do wonder how people can simply dismiss the idea that Boomer can’t be the fifth simply because she is a cylon. How could Anders et al be the final four if they were human?

I am not dismissing it beacuse she is a cylon. My theory is that the missing seventh model cylon is the fifth cylon resurrected. I just not dismissing what Caprica Six said to Roslin in 'He that Believeth in Me'.

I want to argue in a general logical supposition as opposed to very detailed and assumed technical science fiction babble on downloads and possible secret imbedded ff orders hidden inside….

okay.

We know that the FF are different from the cylons. We are all coming to understand that humans and cylons are overlapping and the differences minute. How can we put limitations without knowing the full limitations of the FF? We can't! I don't think we can assume they can fly or throw fireballs but within the mythology of BSG it's not such a stretch. If we can’t put limitations on the FF then the idea that Boomer can’t be the Fifth fail because we simply don’t know how different the fifth is and their limitations. We are left to the idea that it is possible and NOT impossible. Couple that with all the other conditions met for being the FF…I think we have a very compelling case.

I disagree that Boomer is not even a cylon. I think that argument is used to eradicate the “Boomer can’t be the fifth because she is a cylon.” IMO I believe Boomer to be an 8 like any other 8. She shot Adama because her cylon programming. She is just like any other 8 until she sees the light..or hears the music or is “turned on” to her true self – see the other four where they did everything that humans would do – kill and hate cylons and even kill their most cherished wife because she collaborated with a cylon. The idea here is that the FF all act and cruise in their normal set life until activated. Boomer could be liken to a double agent who in the end works actually works for a third party when she is “activated” and in the meantime works diligently for her “side”. Okay kinda weak analogy but you get the gist of my argument for her behaving what and a cylon would.

In 'Faith', The hybrid said, the missing Three will be used to find the Five, who come from the home of the Thirteenth Tribe. So the final five came from the thirteeth colony. So tell me how do you think Tigh, Anders, Foster, and Tyrol was inserted into the human population of the 12 colonies?

An aside before I came to realize Boomer was the Fifth. Many of us had this romantic idea that Boomer would eventually get back with Tyrol and that she was merely playing Cavel and would eventually come back to humanity and or the rebel cylons – since it was said Boomer was to have a big role in season 4. This thought process eventually led to the realization that she is the fifth. It is a big role indeed!

I am playing Devil's Advocate here and may or may not be my own opinion. So, Jamie Bamber said that Dualla is going to be a big part of second half too and that we are going to see a darker part of her. So what makes boomer special in being a big part in the second part of season 4.

I think some of us may be over thinking it when we add the download process into the mix. Why wasn’t Boomer detected etc? Go back to the general idea that the Final Five are 100% who they are until “activated” for lack of a better word.

What do you mean my detected? Actually, I dissagree that they are 100% who they are until " activated". I believe just the opposite.

Now Starstruck made an excellent observation wondering about the integral scene of Boomer/Cavel and D’Anna in the Hub. Why doesn’t D’Anna just say,”Hey Boomer…you’re it. Our leader – tell us what to do.” I think we would not have a cliff hanger if that scene went that way right? It’s acceptable for us – me to accept that the writers had to put Boomer somewhere else and D’Anna in the arms of Helo and an 8 to meet with Roslin and had to write it that way. If we can accept that taking anti-radiation pills is good enough after a planet wide nuclear bombardment then D’Anna “testing” Boomer or being rude as a ruse to test her is not too far a stretch.

Why testing her. D'Anna is a master manipulator. If she thought that Boomer was the final cylon, why did she not go with cavil and boomer. If Boomer was the final cylon, that D'anna took a huge gamble that Boomer would get off the hub and get by the rebel heaver raiders and vipers.

Like I mentioned before many of you are obviously intelligent and sometimes too intelligent creating plots and answers to plot holes that may be too high brow or too high concept for tv writers to put into tv for a tv audience.

None of us know what is to high brow or too high of an concept for BSG writers. Listening to Ronald D Moore podcasts, Ronald D Moore sounds like very intelligent person. I would not put any ideas past him. I am sure that the writes are just as intelligent has Ron.

In the end Boomer is simply the best candidate and the only one that fits the major conditions as well as having a tremendous cinematic pay off for us.

Since you reject a condition that was presented by Caprica Six, What are your major conditions?

I think we had a little snaffoo earlier but the last posts are excellent and made me very happy to join this forum and really adds to my enjoyment of this excellent show.

I am glad to hear it.

[capelo30]

What if the Baltar in the picture is Head Baltar?

My only doubt is his clothing.

Head Baltar is usually very well dressed.

Anyone remember if Baltar ever wore that clothing?

If so....

Was it actual Baltar or Head Baltar?

[Jason1975]

What if the Baltar in the picture is Head Baltar?

My only doubt is his clothing.

Head Baltar is usually very well dressed.

Anyone remember if Baltar ever wore that clothing?

If so....

Was it actual Baltar or Head Baltar?

Capelo30, Welcome to our forum.

If you like spoilers, Here is something you should read.

Here is an insert from an article from TV Guide (http://www.tvguide.com/news/080404-01):
Eleven Cylons now have been revealed, so who is the 12th and final Cylon? Contrary to fan speculation, Moore swears it isn’t one of the show’s primary humans. Not Starbuck or President Roslin. Not Admiral Adama (Edward James Olmos) or his son, Lee (Jamie Bamber). Or even the ever-dubious, Cylon-shagging Gaius Baltar (James Callis). “Even if you guess correctly, it’s still just a guess,” Moore says. “There’s no way anyone can figure it out without knowing exactly where we’re going with the final season.”

[capelo30]

Thanks Jason.

Another question that has me worked up is the 6 and Tigh pregnancy.

I've read in this thread that a theory is.....

The cylon men can reproduce with anyone....

If so why did cheif and boomer not have any children.

Unless they were practicing birth control.....

Which somehow I doubt.

[Jason1975]

Thanks Jason.

Another question that has me worked up is the 6 and Tigh pregnancy.

I've read in this thread that a theory is.....

The cylon men can reproduce with anyone....

If so why did cheif and boomer not have any children.

Unless they were practicing birth control.....

Which somehow I doubt.

You bring up good questions. We do not know for sure. The final five could be fundamental different, maybe the final five might not have any limitations on having children like the significant seven have. Another question is why did Athena and Caprica Six get pregnant and not Boomer, since it seems that Boomer and Tyrol loved each other. Maybe, it has to do something that Boomer was a sleeper agent and did not know what she was. Athena and Caprica Six knew what they were. However, Any guess is good as mine at this point.

[gmuno]

It would be a programmed birth control. Look how the Cylons were interested in Athenas pregnancy and later worship Hera. Now look at Boomer, placed as pilot at a battlestar, there for sabotage missions and terminations. Getting her pregnant would somewhat stress her assignment or make it outright impossible. She was simply not destined (by the other cylons) to get pregnant, so her programming wouldn't allow it.

As for Capricia and Tigh, her programming is in "doesn't matter"-mode, so programming doesn't cut in and voila, she's pregnant.

[alpha5099]

Totally an aside, re: the Final Cylon being a dead character:

Imagine if this is how it played out:

Roslin: Gods dammit, who's the final Cylon?!
Three: Oh, it was Chuckles. (insert whatever dead character you want)
Roslin: ... Oh.
Three: Yeeeep.
Roslin: So ... did they resurrect?
Three: Nope.
Roslin: ... I see.

And scene!

[cameraguyfresno]

some quick thoughts before I head out to LA for a few days.

For Jason:

"I am playing Devil's Advocate here and may or may not be my own opinion. So, Jamie Bamber said that Dualla is going to be a big part of second half too and that we are going to see a darker part of her. So what makes boomer special in being a big part in the second part of season 4. "


I can't answer that or really think of any major subplot Dee could be in based on her past actions on BSG other than it has to do with Apollo. Apollo might decide to go get some free milk and bam...she's pregnant also? No idea. But to answer your inferred question. Dee or Boomer being the Final Cylon - which would be more dramatic storywise? Boomer.

"What do you mean my detected? Actually, I dissagree that they are 100% who they are until " activated". I believe just the opposite. "

Some people mentioned upon being resurrected Boomer's might have been detected as different and accessed her memories as different. I feel before they are activated they are 100% who they are...so what is the opposite of that?

"Why testing her. D'Anna is a master manipulator. If she thought that Boomer was the final cylon, why did she not go with cavil and boomer. If Boomer was the final cylon, that D'anna took a huge gamble that Boomer would get off the hub and get by the rebel heaver raiders and vipers."

I have not a good answer and probably should not have tried to guess but I think the main reason is that the writers needed a cliff hanger, they needed to get D'Anna to Roslin, they needed to create confusion for us with Boomer leaving. Sometimes we just can't explain with total logic some scenes except like I mentioned before..it's contrived. Like the example I used: we all knew Lee was to be President. The way and process was rather murky. But the writers needed to move the story to that point. And...about that all so important "CLUE" scene...why wasn't a FOUR or FIVE in that scene? Well to make the scene economical: didn't need them in there. So we could guess that D'Anna was rude to Boomer or D'Anna was testing her or why didn't D'Anna tell or say something else to Boomer after killing Cavel...well there may be no really good reason except the writers needed write it the way they did to move the story and cliff hanger on.


"Since you reject a condition that was presented by Caprica Six, What are your major conditions?"

Major conditions: be in the beginning of series, not in Last Supper pic, not in fleet when D'Anna takes Roslin et al hostage and perhaps not exactly a prerequiste: the Fifth's revelation should have a true cinematic pay off for the audience - having Zak be the fifth..would not.
What was another condition Caprica Six added?

Now Jason you asked a most interesting question which I have no answer and hope someone may enlighten us.

"In 'Faith', The hybrid said, the missing Three will be used to find the Five, who come from the home of the Thirteenth Tribe. So the final five came from the thirteeth colony. So tell me how do you think Tigh, Anders, Foster, and Tyrol was inserted into the human population of the 12 colonies? "

This actually made a major hole in the Boomer theory. I would say it is rather easy to put the FF into the human population but how to put it into the cylon models...very difficult to decipher. I'm hoping the writers have a great reason. Having said that...the major hole...I still believe the clues point towards Boomer more than anyone else. Just because we can't explain it in all aspects doesn't mean we can't believe it.

Now for the interesting part of that quote. It makes me wonder if the Final Five are literally the last five from Earth (or really last five from Lords of Kobol) or the 13 tribe with the post apocalyptic earth we see in the last episode. Maybe we will never see any people on earth. (I think someone posted that RDM hinted there wouldn't be any new major characters introduced).

Your question made me wonder about the Lords of Kobol. Perhaps they intermingled with humans. In the old testament it was that son's of God would look down on humans and come down to marry/mate with them. Their children would be giants and basically have super human strength. So juxtaposing this Boomer theory with some of the major elements of the show...monotheism and the Colonists polytheism...the Lords of Kobol were fallen angels and made humans to worship them. The Lords knew there was one true god - He Which Has No Name. Thus Cylons believe in "a cylon God". I'm just speculating and thinking out loud now..but very interesting quote - gotta check it out when i get back from LA. Maybe I'll find RDM there!

Oh yeah..I forgot...in this crazy line of thought...the Lords came from earth (if you subscribe to that theory) then to Kobol and thus they went to earth after the big devastation on Kobol with some of the humans to the 13th colony ..called Cylon.

And I think this crazy idea has an important guess..it's a guess...And I think this is the important thing: as the FF get closer to earth...they realize their true self i.e. hearing of song from Nebula. So....if Boomer goes to earth...she'll be become aware..or atleast a light will come on..

Lastly before I head off...Boomer and Tyrol didn't have kids within the storyline because they weren't supposed to fraternize anyway...officers and enlisted. So if they weren't supposed to have sex..how do you explain a kid? hahaha

I'd be very curious to read what others have to say about my wild rambling thoughts about angels being cylons and their kids with superhuman strength (remember the skin jobs do have super human strength - Boomer out enduring Helo in Caprica, Leobin knocking down door in N. Caprica and evil Tory doing a Batman on poor Cally). I'm sure someone would be able to expand it much better or and also discredit very easily...it was just a random thought from the quote.

And what do ya'll think about FF becoming aware as they near earth...their homeworld...or the homeworld of their true ancestors.

Honestly before the bashing comes...I'm just taking some guesses off clues...and "accepted" doctrines..some of link towards that guess..I'm sure we can help each other to find them.

oh i already apologized if this idea has already been said or written...

[Wouter]

This remains an interesting discussion. Some thoughts on recent remarks made by various people:
This actually made a major hole in the Boomer theory. I would say it is rather easy to put the FF into the human population but how to put it into the cylon models...very difficult to decipher.
The 7 Cylons are said to have been made by the Centurions - but is this true, or only what they believe? They appear to be much closer to the final five than to the Centurions in what they are, essentially superhumans/halfgods - a remarkable coincidence. So, I'm guessing the origin of the 7 lies with the 5 and their kin (from Earth?). This mysterious hub - is this a remnant of the technology of the 13th tribe? Those incredibly advanced bioCylons, are those bodies technology from the 13th tribe, only found by the Centurions from Graystone? If so, all of the 7 could be leftover models from the 13th tribe, of which the 5 were part (supposedly).

Besides, there is really no explanation at this moment of how the Dylan Four came into the human population, either.

Lastly before I head off...Boomer and Tyrol didn't have kids within the storyline because they weren't supposed to fraternize anyway...officers and enlisted. So if they weren't supposed to have sex..how do you explain a kid? hahaha

That's a good point. Chances are they did use anti-conception.

Alternatively, it could also be possible that the Cylons of the 7 can interbreed with Cylons of the 5 (Tigh/Cap-6), but they can't reproduce solely within their own group (hence no Anders/Tory baby, allthough that would have needed a 100% success rate anyway, or any baby from intra-7 combinations). In this case, I fear Boomer may be revealed of being pregnant from Cavil as another pointer in a later episode :eek:

I have not a good answer and probably should not have tried to guess but I think the main reason is that the writers needed a cliff hanger, they needed to get D'Anna to Roslin, they needed to create confusion for us with Boomer leaving. Sometimes we just can't explain with total logic some scenes except like I mentioned before..it's contrived.
Yes, logical plot development and continuity takes a back seat to dramatic license at times on TV, and BSG has been no exception over the years.

Just for the hell of it though, another motivation for D'Anna: she doesn't like Boomer to start with, she has wronged her and Boomer knows a lot of stuff about D'Anna that she might not want to become public knowledge among the other 4 or the humans. Like, her insisting on having Cally executed (Tyrol would certainly appreciate that), her being the particular 3 that tried to kill Anders with particular enthusiasm (Anders would certainly appreciate that), her being the one who came up with the dead list on New Caprica and generally being a hawk there. Since Boomer knows which 3 is which, she can point this out without doubts. Caprica-6 knows this too, but by that point D'Anna doesn't know where Cap-6 is and whether she is even alive (and moreover, Cap-6 seemed fine with her by "Torn"). So, perhaps D'Anna was thinking about her own skin and standing with the other four Cylons when she decided that they didn't really need Boomer anyway.

I am playing Devil's Advocate here and may or may not be my own opinion. So, Jamie Bamber said that Dualla is going to be a big part of second half too and that we are going to see a darker part of her. So what makes boomer special in being a big part in the second part of season 4.

I'm not sure we can conclude that Dualla will be a big part of the second half of S4 - rather, it may be that she has one particular coming episode centered around her - which is big enough in itself but doesn't have to mean she will be important throughout S4.5. What Jamie said about Dualla: "I have to say that, you know, they kind of split at the end of season three and Lee now lives on Colonial One and she lives on Galactica, but there’s a big Dualla story coming up that will answer all your questions before the end."
As for those questions, the interviewer was concentrating on Apollo's relationship with Starbuck (and by extension, with Dualla as the major competitor) : http://blog.zap2it.com/korbitv/2008/06/maybe-its-becau.html

It was said by one of the writers, before the season, that we will see Dualla has "a dark side".

I admit Dualla's name (first and last both) are also suggestive, but I still expect that Boomer's part will be bigger in S4.5 - perhaps not in airtime but in relevance. It is IMO easier for the writers to do a major Dualla story, like they did one with Cally and one with Lee in S4.0, because she is actually in the fleet. It is harder to see how Boomer will have a big role while being a sidekick to Cavil, and a very meek and passive sidekick at that (she's not cutting it as a villain so far). And the only likely way for her side of the Cylon divide to be relevant, is conflict with the humans and/or rebel Cylons (where Cavil is likely to steal the show and the lines, with Boomer just hanging around a bit). Boomer being the 13th could be a way to introduce her back into the main story. Dualla doesn't need that, the writers can put her front and center when they want to.


I think some of us may be over thinking it when we add the download process into the mix. Why wasn’t Boomer detected etc? Go back to the general idea that the Final Five are 100% who they are until “activated” for lack of a better word.


Or just go with the "fundamentally different" ploy, which "explains" why Tigh can be a Cylon allthough we "knew" that Cylons don't age and that Tigh was far too old to be a Cylon. So, what's stopping RDM to say the final Cylon is "fundamentally different" from the other 4, again? After all, we really do seem to have 3 distinct groups here; the 7, the 4 that were activated together, and the mysterious final one.

An aside before I came to realize Boomer was the Fifth. Many of us had this romantic idea that Boomer would eventually get back with Tyrol and that she was merely playing Cavel and would eventually come back to humanity and or the rebel cylons – since it was said Boomer was to have a big role in season 4. This thought process eventually led to the realization that she is the fifth. It is a big role indeed!

I had exactly the same experience (I suppose most who think Boomer could be the final Cylon were very interested in the character to start with). I had read many spoilers for season 4, and the combination of the "big time" comment, the spoiled "Cylon debate" clip from "Six of one" and what I knew of Boomer's experiences/character lead me to think that she was going to release the Centurions or that she was an agent for Natalie's faction. I think many were surprised that the writers took the dramatic decision of letting her hook up with Cavil (quite out of left field, only one throwaway comment in "Rapture" as very light warning), for real. I still wonder what her motivations are supposed to be.

I think we can agree that the "big time" promise wasn't honoured at all in S4.0, so it should still be coming. Combine that with small observations you tend to make about your favorite character, and then the big bomb of D'Anna's "four, not five", and the Boomer theory starts to make sense (for me and the likeminded, of course, it doesn't for many others).

And the small things the writers have been doing, like that 8s "do you think they look anything like us?", does feed that impression. Why was this put in that episode, I wonder? It's a frivolous thought, after all they know that the final Cylons will look like humans, just like them, and their particular personal appearance is hardly important. The implication, in my interpretation, is that indeed some FF models could look like cousins or even brothers and sisters to the significant seven models - or at least, that this 8 is wondering if that could be possible.

[Pnutmaster]

A tiny, most likely insignificant blurb, but I was listening to the Season 3 BSG soundtrack (best one IMO, soon to be outranked by Season 4) and I couldn't help but notice the melody that Boomer/Athena's theme shares with the song titled "The Temple of Five".

Any thoughts as to "Head Six's" words (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=18954#post18954) in Kobol's Last Gleaming Part 1? Another chip at the theory, or more cryptic ramblings from Baltar's "Head" buddy?

[Wouter]

Head Six doesn't say what her model is, does she? Only that it is weak, and always has been - she could be talking about #7, for all we know. Head six also isn't always right in every detaiol (she though Hera was dead, and that she would be born in the brig instead of sickbay).

Boomer is special in her own right and has reason to return prominently in Season Four. She was the lover of Tyrol and a valued member of the crew. She's changed allegiances before and can change again. The fans will want her story wrapped up, whether she's the Final Cylon or not.
True. As for changing allegiances, at least the initial change from humans to (dovish) Cylons was forced on her. That she got involved with Cavil after that may have grown over time, so there was not really a sudden dramatic change (there was no civil war at that time, yet).

The problem now is that Boomer is still/again in circumstances that make it impossible to change allegiance back to humans and/or 268 Cylons. First, she's presumably in love with Cavil, or at least they have some kind of relationship. Why would she suddenly drop him (I think he's still alive, that this is why Boomer was off in a hurry on the hub - to make sure he resurrected in the nick of time)? And why go back to people (her old crewmates) who have made it clear she's hated and not welcome at all? She can only expect to be shot once more or to be airlocked, given what she did while a sleeper agent.

Even if she wanted to go back, or could convince Cavil to attempt to end the war, she's with the wrong Cylons. She doesn't know where the rebels went and where Galactica is, and even if she happened to find them by chance they are more likely to shoot at her than to welcome her. I think Boomer has, after disappointments like being thrown off Galactica in "Eye of Jupiter", given up completely on Galactica (she probably wants to be there deep down, but she cannot possibly have it) and that she is attempting to build a new life for herself. Something will need to happen before she could be swayed to go back. So if we are to get a reunion between Boomer and people of the RTF, I think someone from the RTF will have to seek her out, rather than the other way round.

The alternative is that Cavil's group also discovers Earth, which could lead to negotiations of some sort.

[LSOP]

As soon as she realizes that she's one of the final five, she would probably be emboldened to come forward and make contact with the humans again. But she probably won't know that until D'Anna or Tigh seeks her out and tells her. Unless Cavil knows, and decides to tell her for some reason. Maybe that's the whole reason he hooked up with Boomer. He was trying to keep her destiny hidden.

[genji2000]

As soon as she realizes that she's one of the final five, she would probably be emboldened to come forward and make contact with the humans again. But she probably won't know that until D'Anna or Tigh seeks her out and tells her. Unless Cavil knows, and decides to tell her for some reason. Maybe that's the whole reason he hooked up with Boomer. He was trying to keep her destiny hidden.

Surely Cavil would be the last person to acknowledge her as a Final Five? He's the most committed to his original programming of never thinking about them. Realising she is one and acting either for her destiny or to hide her, from herself or everyone else, would force him to question his programming. He hooked up with her because he got a taste for the swirl from Ellen Tigh.

Aren't the humans pretty much done with the Final Five at the current point? They thought the F5 could show them the way to Earth. Now they've got there and are stood on the remains of the Watchtower Building, isn't it over between them? The Cylons revere and love the F5, but humans just wanted to get to Earth.

[LSOP]

Surely Cavil would be the last person to acknowledge her as a Final Five? He's the most committed to his original programming of never thinking about them. Realising she is one and acting either for her destiny or to hide her, from herself or everyone else, would force him to question his programming. He hooked up with her because he got a taste for the swirl from Ellen Tigh.

I agree that's why he hooked up with her. And I don't think he knew she was final five when he did. But Cavil is smart. What if he finally gives in and starts thinking about who the final five are (like maybe after D'anna contacts him and says she has 4 of the 5)? He could reason that the fifth could be with him, and he could reason that Boomer was the only other sleeper agent. It doesn't seem to be in his interest, at that point, to reveal it to Boomer, but who knows, maybe in the middle of sex or something, he blurts it out. Utter and complete conjecture, I know, but we have a few months ahead of us now, so might as well conjecture away!

Aren't the humans pretty much done with the Final Five at the current point? They thought the F5 could show them the way to Earth. Now they've got there and are stood on the remains of the Watchtower Building, isn't it over between them? The Cylons revere and love the F5, but humans just wanted to get to Earth.

Right, I agree. But D'Anna and the final four (especially perhaps Tigh) would still want to find the fifth and may be willing to manipulate the humans to try to find her.

[Wouter]

Besides the rebel Cylons and the humans, there are also the final four to consider. They were all interested in finding the 5th, and Tigh and Tyrol especially also have personal reasons to seek her out (regardless of her being the 5th). They would need permission and/or cooperation from Adama or the rebel Cylons though.

The humans might also need the final Cylon for something (what about directions to the real promised land, which may not be Earth); while Roslin may be down on Pythia at the moment, a new vision (style baseship jump or opera house) could yet get her attention focused on the final Cylon.

As for what Cavil knows or not knows, I think this is left vague at the moment. It is curious that Cavils have been in close contact with Tyrol (counselling session), Tigh (New Caprica detention) and Anders (hidden in Anders' resistance group in New Caprica), and if Boomer is the 5th then that's 4 out of 5. He does not want the other Cylons to know, but we're not sure he may not know more himself. If he does know something, it seems he was hoping that D'Anna would lie about the FF to the 268 Cylons to save her own skin. If he doesn't know, then he was probably sincere in thinking that no FFer would be among the humans - but quite a coincidence that he became heavily involved with them. Especially the counselling session with Tyrol, steering him towards Cally.

[genji2000]

I hope it doesn't go down the route of Cavil being some kind of The Architect, like, as the One model, the original programmer or something. I know a lot of people might disagree but I don't think Dean Stockwell's got the chops to pull that off.

4 out of 5 had contact with Cavil. 3 out of 4 were leaders in the New Caprica resistance. 2 out of 3 books are closed. 6 out of 7 were hidden in the colonial fleet. 4 out of 5 were hidden in the colonial fleet. 2 out of 3 drinking vessels are glasses.

[timbo]

I hope it doesn't go down the route of Cavil being some kind of The Architect, like, as the One model, the original programmer or something. I know a lot of people might disagree but I don't think Dean Stockwell's got the chops to pull that off.

4 out of 5 had contact with Cavil. 3 out of 4 were leaders in the New Caprica resistance. 2 out of 3 books are closed. 6 out of 7 were hidden in the colonial fleet. 4 out of 5 were hidden in the colonial fleet. 2 out of 3 drinking vessels are glasses.


Yeah, I agree. I like the tool or agent concept, and I think the Cavill´s are tools, rather than agents.

Hee hee, just read that over - the cavill´s are tools ..

I think the real architect is a sort of spiritual gravity. Everything in the universe has a natural tendency towards atrophy and decay, and from time to time, maybe when we haven´t been careful enough in pushing forward spiritually, this darkness gains so much mass that it has the strength to take some sort of form - in this case, the Cavills. God doesn´t need a devil for Him to make sense or to balance Him out. God is the power that we need to swim against this tide of atrophy. It is never going to stop, and the batton will be passed forever if we are up to it. It is the old "walking up a down escalator" thing.
If we don´t make the effort to keep going up, we get carried down, and at the bottom we become Cavills.

[genji2000]

Yeah, I agree. I like the tool or agent concept, and I think the Cavill´s are tools, rather than agents.

Hee hee, just read that over - the cavill´s are tools ..

I think the real architect is a sort of spiritual gravity. Everything in the universe has a natural tendency towards atrophy and decay, and from time to time, maybe when we haven´t been careful enough in pushing forward spiritually, this darkness gains so much mass that it has the strength to take some sort of form - in this case, the Cavills. God doesn´t need a devil for Him to make sense or to balance Him out. God is the power that we need to swim against this tide of atrophy. It is never going to stop, and the batton will be passed forever if we are up to it. It is the old "walking up a down escalator" thing.
If we don´t make the effort to keep going up, we get carried down, and at the bottom we become Cavills.

Well we know he has a name because he's The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken. If he has a name and is so revered then I'd guess that he's an individual, not some kind of spittle gravy that grows and takes shape. I just hope you're right, and that the clue is not in his name.

[timbo]

Well we know he has a name because he's The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken. If he has a name and is so revered then I'd guess that he's an individual, not some kind of spittle gravy that grows and takes shape. I just hope you're right, and that the clue is not in his name.

Whoaa, goose pimples. The final cylon / lord of Kobol might be the .....THE DEVIL. Well. they are saying that the theories aren´t even close, and I haven´t heard this before, though it must have been thought of. It sounds like another "tonteria", but I am actually half serious. Maybe he has visited before in another cycle and we have have the horns and tail image because,..... well, ........he has horns and a tail.

This One Whose Name etc, is it from BSG?

Spittle gravy - brilliant. BUT, I think we are too quick to put human shapes to things we dont understand. It is part of our arrogance. We think we are the be all and end all of everything.

[genji2000]

Whoaa, goose pimples. The final cylon / lord of Kobol might be the .....THE DEVIL. Well. they are saying that the theories aren´t even close, and I haven´t heard this before, though it must have been thought of. It sounds like another "tonteria", but I am actually half serious.

As a yardstick, how serious are you about the chip in Tigh's head? It is utter tonteria, and that's not where I was going.

I can't work out Cavil's significance. He was the last S7 to be revealed, and his reveal was odd, underplayed. As a viewer I thought, ho hum, another Cylon. He does have an image of a lord of darkness - the cynical devil, who's seen it all before - but he has moments of exasperation (which is what I think Dean Stockwell doesn't play very well), such as stressing to the soon-to-be rebels that they shouldn't be thinking of the Final Five.

I don't think he's the Final Cylon, but I'm concerned he might be the original programmer, and I can imagine the "it was me all along and if it wasn't for you pesky kids I'd've got away with it, too!" revelation.

Maybe he has visited before in another cycle and we have have the horns and tail image because,..... well, ........he has horns and a tail.

This One Whose Name etc, is it from BSG?

Yes. The five priests, after whom the pillars in the Temple of Five (where did that Cavil come from?) were fashioned, worshipped The One Whose Name etc.

Spittle gravy - brilliant. BUT, I think we are too quick to put human shapes to things we dont understand. It is part of our arrogance. We think we are the be all and end all of everything.

It's not arrogant. It's human. Plus there are no aliens in BSG, just humans and the children they created.

[Leto]

uhm ... don't know if this already has been said ^^

three didn't meet the people who were not on new caprica. what if one of them is the final one. she met now admiral and lee... what about dee?

[genji2000]

uhm ... don't know if this already has been said ^^

three didn't meet the people who were not on new caprica. what if one of them is the final one. she met now admiral and lee... what about dee?

Wasn't Dee interviewed for the video that D'Anna made in The Final Cut? So she would have met Dee then, and D'Anna's memories are likely to be available to the other Threes.

[Jason1975]

Wasn't Dee interviewed for the video that D'Anna made in The Final Cut? So she would have met Dee then, and D'Anna's memories are likely to be available to the other Threes.

That is correct, She met then Commander William Adama, Lee, Dee, Cat, and Racetrack in The Final Cut.

[LSOP]

Here is why the 5th cannot be in the fleet, and why D'Anna is not lying about that:

Lets pretend she did indeed know that all five were in the fleet but lied and said there were only four. How would she know that only four out of 5 of them were activated, or self-aware? Of course she would have to assume that they were sleeper agents, since she saw what they did on New Caprica with the resistance and while she was on Galactica doing her news report. But she wouldn't know which of them were activated now, if any. So, what would make her decide to go for just 4 of the 5 before she even set foot on Galactica? It doesn't really make sense. When she stands in the hangar bay and makes eye contact with the four (or maybe five for all we knew), she wouldn't know if they even knew their true natures or not. D'Anna would have no idea how many of the five would be able to or want to respond to her plea. Were they in communication with each other? What if none of them were activated yet? What if only 3 were? What if all five were, and they all tried to come over to the basestar? Until she talks to Tory, she wouldn't know about the Watchtower song, and how it called only 4 of them together. She could not predict how her invitation to have four cylons come freely over to the baseship would be received, especially if she knew there were really five cylons there instead of her stated four. It would not have been a good plan for her, since she had no way to communicate which cylons should come and which one should stay. D'Anna wouldn't know that there was a known 4 and an unknown 5th.

So having her lie about there being only 4 in the fleet is too much coincidence. She must be telling the truth.

IF D'Anna isn't lying about there being only 4 of the 5 in the fleet, then it has to be true that she became aware of the wherabouts of the 5th before she told Laura there were only 4 while still on the baseship. This means that in the short time since she resurrected, she has seen the 5th. (Characters that we know are dead wouldn't work because she couldn't be confident that they weren't in the fleet.) The only places she has been in that time are on the Hub and on the basestar.

Plus, it is only logical to assume that the 5th doesn't realize who they are yet, otherwise they would have sought out D'Anna, knowing that she knew their identity. And D'Anna must know that the 5th doesn't realize it, because otherwise D'Anna wouldn't feel like it was a secret that she could keep control of. (In fact, when D'Anna went over to the Galactica, she would have thought there was a good chance that the four over there didn't realize it either, since the one that she had already seen did not. That is why she said things the way she did. That way, if any of the final four didn't know it yet, then the secret could stay with her for a while longer.)

So, who could D'Anna have seen since her resurrection that is not in the fleet, and who she is sure does not know their final five nature yet?

Well, everyone on the basestar, I suppose. But also Boomer and Cavil.

So if you take the Not-In-Fleet filter, and combine that with all the other filters on the final cylon (Last Supper, Main Character, etc.) I think the only one who falls through at the end is Boomer.

[timbo]

Genji, I didn´t mean making aliens take the shape of man, but instead thinking of an unseen force without having to put a shape or face to it. It is really restricting to think of God as a man for me. I know you weren´t really going toward the devil, but your post made me think of it, and it seemed worth a ponder. I am in a minority, I know, but I would like the final cylon to be someone or something not seen in the show, but who we would somehow be familiar with. This means God, the devil, figures that represent something from our history - either real or the personification of an idea that we would recognise. Or maybe the final cylon is different to each person that looks upon him -- now there is a good idea. Maybe the person or cylons character or experience governs their perception of who they see when they see the last one. Or maybe each person sees a sort of reflection of themselves. There you go, a couple of juicy ideas in there to consider. Maybe when Aaron said that the ideas on the forum weren´t even close, he meant something like this.

Outside the box, guys, that´s where the answer is.

[timbo]

As a yardstick, how serious are you about the chip in Tigh's head? It is utter tonteria, and that's not where I was going.

That is funny. If my Tigh idea is the yardstick, it isn´t really surprising that my credibility is in the toilet, I suppose.

But seriously, this Devil idea is intrigueing. He has about twenty different names, beelzbub, satan etc, some of which should not be spoken. I don´t think it will be the real devil, as I dont think there is one. Rather, it might someone/thing that has somehow appeared before in another cycle and become part of our inherited memory or something. Our conceptions of religious figures and ideas must have come from somewhere.

[genji2000]

Genji, I didn´t mean making aliens take the shape of man, but instead thinking of an unseen force without having to put a shape or face to it.

No, I know. What I meant was, what shape do you expect an anthropomorphic personification to take in the minds of humans? Like in our own, mankind is the only intelligent lifeform in the BSG universe.

It is really restricting to think of God as a man for me. I know you weren´t really going toward the devil, but your post made me think of it, and it seemed worth a ponder. I am in a minority, I know, but I would like the final cylon to be someone or something not seen in the show, but who we would somehow be familiar with. This means God, the devil, figures that represent something from our history - either real or the personification of an idea that we would recognise. Or maybe the final cylon is different to each person that looks upon him -- now there is a good idea.

But that's just the devil isn't it? The devil appears in whatever form is most appropriate in the eyes of the beholder for him to meet his objectives. I think you want to see The Last Temptation of Adama.

Maybe the person or cylons character or experience governs their perception of who they see when they see the last one. Or maybe each person sees a sort of reflection of themselves. There you go, a couple of juicy ideas in there to consider. Maybe when Aaron said that the ideas on the forum weren´t even close, he meant something like this.

Yes, this is exactly what he meant. :)

Outside the box, guys, that´s where the answer is.

I joined this forum when I'd got up to date with the show, and my motives for doing so were to discuss and maybe get some answers about the direction the show was heading. Identifying the Final Cylon never occurred to me as a consideration until I realised that was the big issue. I was more interested in the purpose of the Final Five and the meaning behind the cycle of time. Even so, I like the Final Cylon discussions because they're a bit of an easy diversion, and there's a target there, which afterwards you can say you were right or wrong about.

The interesting questions about the show for me are still based in fiction. I want to know the meanings behind the prophecies and the playing out of the drama that is told again and again throughout time, and the reasons for this show being the way it is. It's not nearly as dark as I was told it was, but it has depth and gravity (mostly; it loses its way occasionally).

But I don't think it's going to reveal anything about the spiritual nature of humanity. Its purpose is to entertain, not edify, and my enjoyment comes from the creative achievement.

That is funny. If my Tigh idea is the yardstick, it isn´t really surprising that my credibility is in the toilet, I suppose.

I haven't worked out if you are serious when you say things like that. I think your ideas are wacky but you have a big heart and an intelligent mind and I think you're a benefit to this community, despite being obviously mad.

But seriously, this Devil idea is intrigueing. He has about twenty different names, beelzbub, satan etc, some of which should not be spoken. I don´t think it will be the real devil, as I dont think there is one. Rather, it might someone/thing that has somehow appeared before in another cycle and become part of our inherited memory or something. Our conceptions of religious figures and ideas must have come from somewhere.

I think the nearest thing to the devil they'll have is whatever force guides the Thirteenth Tribe, which I think is the cult of Baltar. I really hope this show leaves a lot of unanswered questions so that people can read into it or get out of it what they want to for a long time to come.

[timbo]

No, I know. What I meant was, what shape do you expect an anthropomorphic personification to take in the minds of humans? Like in our own, mankind is the only intelligent lifeform in the BSG universe.[quote]

I understand what you say, it is what I would expect, but if we could evolve spiritually at the same rate that we have done technologically, we wouldn´t need to put a shape to it. We would be happy to look for something without knowing what it looks like or understanding its nature.



[quote]But that's just the devil isn't it? The devil appears in whatever form is most appropriate in the eyes of the beholder for him to meet his objectives. I think you want to see The Last Temptation of Adama.[quote]

I´m still not sure what I want, really.



[quote]Yes, this is exactly what he meant. :)[quote]

Do you mean that you think it will be something like that - really out of left field?



[quote] I joined this forum when I'd got up to date with the show, and my motives for doing so were to discuss and maybe get some answers about the direction the show was heading. Identifying the Final Cylon never occurred to me as a consideration until I realised that was the big issue. I was more interested in the purpose of the Final Five and the meaning behind the cycle of time. Even so, I like the Final Cylon discussions because they're a bit of an easy diversion, and there's a target there, which afterwards you can say you were right or wrong about.

The interesting questions about the show for me are still based in fiction. I want to know the meanings behind the prophecies and the playing out of the drama that is told again and again throughout time, and the reasons for this show being the way it is. It's not nearly as dark as I was told it was, but it has depth and gravity (mostly; it loses its way occasionally). [quote]

Yup, it has been pretty much the same for me. I perhaps thought I was above the FF stuff at first, but it is fun and it let me get into things here and make friends.

[quote] But I don't think it's going to reveal anything about the spiritual nature of humanity. Its purpose is to entertain, not edify, and my enjoyment comes from the creative achievement. [quote]

Here we differ. Maybe not just the story in the show, but the whole experience of the show, the music, the forum, has given me a real push in the right direction. I am not an intellectual. I don´t understand highbrow literature. It doesn´t touch me. This show does.



[quote] I haven't worked out if you are serious when you say things like that. I think your ideas are wacky but you have a big heart and an intelligent mind and I think you're a benefit to this community, despite being obviously mad.[quote]

Usually serious, I think. I´m not playing games anyway. I don´t really know. I probably have more stupid ideas than good ones.

And today is my birthday, and that is the nicest thing that anyone has said to me all day. Thanks.



I think the nearest thing to the devil they'll have is whatever force guides the Thirteenth Tribe, which think is the cult is of Baltar. I really hope this show leaves a lot of unanswered questions so that people can read into it or get out of it what they want to for a long time to come.

Me too. I dont want concrete answers, I want hope.


What a surprise, I completely messed up again. How DO I chop up the quotes and comments. In simple language, please.

[genji2000]

@timbo: do you even know what '/' is? [/quote] ends the tag.

Now I'll read your post.

Edit #1: Wow. Why isn't it in the calendar? Get your DoB in your profile man. LOTS of people will be wishing you happy birthday. Here's mine:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TIMBO

HAVE A GOOD ONE.

EDIT #2:
Hit 'QUOTE' to include people's quotes. The tags always start with and end with so whatever text is inside those is affected by the tag: spoilers, colours, quotes, italics, whatever.

[timbo]

Thanks dude.

When you say hit quote, is that a button on the keyboard ? I´m serious. I know F.. all about computers.

[genji2000]

Thanks dude.

When you say hit quote, is that a button on the keyboard ? I´m serious. I know F.. all about computers.

No - in someone's message that you want to reply to it's in the bottom right hand corner.

[timbo]

No - in someone's message that you want to reply to it's in the bottom right hand corner.

Ok, this is my problem. I have pressed quote and your bit has come up, but how do I break up your bit to comment on each part. Once I have pressed quote the first time it disappears.

[genji2000]

Ok, this is my problem. I have pressed quote and your bit has come up, but how do I break up your bit to comment on each part. Once I have pressed quote the first time it disappears.

I've PM'd because this is well off-topic.

[Howlrunner]

Okay, here is my big problem with the Boomer Theory...how can there be 12 models and a #8 be in there twice?? Boomer is fundamentally a #8 model. She is referred to as a "Pet 8", she is not a distict model to be counted separately. The math just doesnt add up??

[genji2000]

Okay, here is my big problem with the Boomer Theory...how can there be 12 models and a #8 be in there twice?? Boomer is fundamentally a #8 model. She is referred to as a "Pet 8", she is not a distict model to be counted separately. The math just doesnt add up??

I asked something similar: how can one Cylon model be two models?

Boomer might be a Seven. Her consciousness (the Seven bit) can download into an Eight's body (the Eight bit).

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=16052&postcount=176

A quick quote:

No, but on the other hand I do not think it is 100% impossible (that is, the writers could go for it if they wanted, just like they turned everything we thought we knew on its head by making Tigh a Cylon) that model 7 is a fluke in the sense that it could be 99% identical to either model 6 or model 8, the difference being only in programming/operating system/background... The reasoning would be that whoever/whatever is behind the FF (the original programmers? The head people? a 13th Cylon?) may have made sure to include an agent among the 7, to steer them in the same way the other 4 keep an eye on the humans. Which would be one of the possible explanations the 5th one hasn't made himself/herself known to the other 4 - he/she wouldn't be in the fleet (Natalie says they all are, but Natalie also thinks the 5 know the way to Earth)!

[Wouter]

I wrote the quoted bit (back then it was more theoretical "spielerei") before D'Anna told us there were only 4 unrevealed Cylons in the fleet - so my possible explanation for the 5th not contacting the other 4 now looks very attractive. Natalie was not quite right, off by one Cylon, it looks like.

[LSOP]

I don't think it has to be weird that the 5th looks like an eight.

If whoever was in charge of setting up the F5 wanted to put the F5 into both the human AND cylon populations, then what would be their choices? Well to put someone into the human population, you would create unique individual bodies, otherwise people would be suspicious if they looked the same. And to put someone into the cylon population, you would create a copy of a know cylon, otherwise people would be suspicious if they looked different. It could be as simple as that. The F5 makers just did what they had to do to make the Five blend in with their populations until they woke up. And since they planned for Boomer to eventually live among the cylons after being activated aboard galactica, killed, then resurrected, then they made her look like an eight. How bout that?

And Happy Birthday Timbo! My son's birthday is today too! He's 1yr old.

[home_pw]

The thread and the comments revoolve around the prophetic descriptions of the final cylon model, analysing their possible meaning. In other story arcs, we (now know) we have seen the writers playing with double meaning, to achieve the dramatic effect of audience mid-direction.

In the ending of "Razor (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Razor)", during the raid on the Cylon basestar, the Cylon Hybrid (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/First_Hybrid) tells Kendra Shaw (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Kendra_Shaw) that "all of this has happened before and will happen again" and that Kara Thrace "will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/apocalypse). The harbinger of death. They must not follow her."
"the end" can (now) be seen as "end of journey" of the "end of humanity" (having finally reached a devasted Earth planet), and the "end of the cycle of rebirth".

"apocalypse" can (now) be seen as the nuclear aftermath, on Earth. A herald is of course a communicator of (unknown) events.

"harbinger of death" can (now) be seen better now as the herald predicting the end of resurrection capabilities of the magnificent seven

"not follow her" can be seen as allowing Demetrius to go alone, or not follow in the path of her destined path - to continue post death as an (gaming-style) avatar.


Now, if the authors are evidently subtely playing with audience mis-redirection with those prophetic lines, its likely they do so similarly with lines describing the fifth cylon. Theories of wider systemic mis-direction abound : Balter being a previous cycle's Hera, colonials are all part cylon anyways, head6 and headBalters are avatars in the conscioness of both colonials and magnificent seven cylons alike, cylon models can choose to access shared memories by accessing the "data stream", etc. So, given the various religious underpinnings of the wider story, and its calls for the "charismatic" eights to show individual identity, for balter to find a seemingly impossible redemption, for the son to finally replace the father, etc, we see a recurring theme of : break the cycle of rebirth through a karmic-style individual effort.

Of the final cylon, we know we have themes of shadows, individual struggle, and light. Shadows could be a subtle media-mogul reference to the babylon5 universe and its related themes of prohecy of time-recurring struggles. Individual struggle in order to break the cycle plays well with the karmic undertones of those (real) religons which already embrace (religious, vs gaming) avatars. And light is of course ultimately "the idea" - the contradictory aphorism that describes that which is only seeable ... once you've seen it.

So, we can expect a dramatic surpise - suited to a satifying ending of a morality play. The fifth final-5 cylon can be expected to be revealed as a left-field player - be for example the very audience of the last supper painting, for example, stuggling away to understand the idea - and by definition not be in the picture. Those paintings that have pictures the audience, are classical studies of regression and its infinitiness - a last supper morality theme, indeed. The fith cylon could turn out to be each and every colonial human - as a metaphor for the shows audience.

This is all of course a strong watchtower theme.

[Wouter]

Difficult for D'Anna to see each and every colonial human as the 5th in her vision, don't you think so?

[timbo]

Yeah, I was thinking along similar lines this week. Your post made me think of that famous Kitchener poster "your country needs you." with him him pointing his finger at the viewer.

Hee hee, ... that would make a great T-shirt ......... Kitchener and his finger with ....

The Final Cylon is..

YOU!

So, given the various religious underpinnings of the wider story, and its calls for the "charismatic" eights to show individual identity, for balter to find a seemingly impossible redemption, for the son to finally replace the father, etc, we see a recurring theme of : break the cycle of rebirth through a karmic-style individual effort.


I just read your post again more carefully, and I really like this bit. Although I don´t think it is the cycle of rebirth that can be broken, rather the cycle of man destroying himself by letting his God-given instincts get out of control. These are not my ideas; I have read them or heard them elsewhere, but they are ideas that hold the best hope for our future I think. If each man makes an individual effort to live by his instincts as was originally intended, instead of being dominated by them, we would stop destroying ourselves, and the cycle would be broken.
I think this is at the heart of the show, and is the thing that drew me in at the beginning.

Also, what did you mean by "watchtower theme".

[home_pw]

And, is not Boomer the only sleeper cylon who _believed_ she was a colonial human, before activation? Were any other models/instances who were actually unknowing of their true (military) mission, working as either sleepers or infiltrators?

If anyone could represent the audience/humanity itself, would not it be Boomer (i.e. an eight variant, per the theme of this thread). We know her is model is perceived as "blessed" (however undeservingly) and that an eight's baby's name is know widely by all cylons as the future of the cylon "race". We know that Boomer herself, post resurrection and back in her Caprica appartment, struggled to do other than resume her colonia/human lifestyle, portending an individual boxing. Since then, she has flipflopped in her politics, leading opinion to recogtnize the original geneocide to ultimately being the first cylon to ever decide aginst her model.

We do know however that the (only _semi-sentient_) raiders did not recognize her - unlike Anders - as a final five, during the armistice-ending battle. And, we know that fully sentient humanoid cylons are unlike raiders, in this recogntion ability (D'Anna would thus have "you! I had no idea!" upon seeing the face of an eight).

AS story tellers, they have to go for a satisfying ending for the audience The character has to represent the themes of the show, and be emblematic of them. There is no followup story, only "fill in" tv movies that can perhaps explain subplots.

[Wouter]

Anders was only recognized after he was "activated", though. At least, the centurions (which I suppose may have similar ability to recognize a final five Cylon) sure had no problem with firing on him before that, and raiders have fired many times on Galactica while Tigh and Tyrol were aboard.

Many Cylon agents were expected to die in the opening battles of the war anyway (as Gina said); they were counting on the resurrection to suffer no permanent losses. Raiders weren't supposed to hold back.

[Talis Grayson]

Umm...Im just gonna toss something out here... I know Im new to the site but there are 12 MODELS. Boomer is a Model Eight...so how can she also be the final model....you need to think logically.

[cameraguyfresno]

excellent reasoning why Boomer looks like an a cylone skin job model.

I don't think it has to be weird that the 5th looks like an eight.

If whoever was in charge of setting up the F5 wanted to put the F5 into both the human AND cylon populations, then what would be their choices? Well to put someone into the human population, you would create unique individual bodies, otherwise people would be suspicious if they looked the same. And to put someone into the cylon population, you would create a copy of a know cylon, otherwise people would be suspicious if they looked different. It could be as simple as that. The F5 makers just did what they had to do to make the Five blend in with their populations until they woke up. And since they planned for Boomer to eventually live among the cylons after being activated aboard galactica, killed, then resurrected, then they made her look like an eight. How bout that?

[Osprey]

TG,

Boomer's S7 designation is 8. RDM has stated on record that F5 don't have numbers ...

Hence, Aaron Douglas' assertion that Galen is "11" [or was it 12?] is just, i dunno, is "actorwank" a legit. term?
:-)

/a full week after the ep. airs I just had a blinding-flash-of-the-obvious-moment -- everyone knows nicky is a hybrid now -- wonder just what that will mean come 4.5?

[genji2000]

TG,

Boomer's S7 designation is 8. RDM has stated on record that F5 don't have numbers ...

Hence, Aaron Douglas' assertion that Galen is "11" [or was it 12?] is just, i dunno, is "actorwank" a legit. term?
:-)

/a full week after the ep. airs I just had a blinding-flash-of-the-obvious-moment -- everyone knows nicky is a hybrid now -- wonder just what that will mean come 4.5?

"Actorwank" is an ace term, it should be as legit. as fanwank.

I thought Nicky would be the knuckledragger Adam to Hera's keen-minded Eve, but I read someone suggest that he may be the anti-hybrid.

[LSOP]

a full week after the ep. airs I just had a blinding-flash-of-the-obvious-moment -- everyone knows nicky is a hybrid now -- wonder just what that will mean come 4.5?

I dunno, but nicky isn't in the opera house visions, nor has head-six ever brought him up as special, like she has with Hera, so there seems to be something unique about Hera.

Then there is Caprica-Six's baby, that at least Doc Cottle and the Admiral now know is a cylon/cylon child, which isn't supposed to work.

Maybe it wasn't that cylon/cylon couldn't work, it was just that they just couldn't get the spark of love going between cylons before. Of course we still haven't seen a true S7/S7 conception yet. We have S7/F5 (in utero), F5/human (nicky), and S7/human (hera) only.

[Wouter]

In the podcast for "the hub", Boomer is briefly mentioned. Jane Espenson says (around 23:30) that D'Anna said, in an older version of the script, "you better run, darling". This was meant to make it clearer that Boomer had the the time to escape the hub (which I think was clear anyway). RDM confirms that she does, in fact, survive.

Interestingly, this would mean that D'Anna may have not have wanted Boomer to join the rebels on the one hand, and may not have wanted her to die on the other hand.

[Jason1975]

In the podcast for "the hub", Boomer is briefly mentioned. Jane Espenson says (around 23:30) that D'Anna said, in an older version of the script, "you better run, darling". This was meant to make it clearer that Boomer had the the time to escape the hub (which I think was clear anyway). RDM confirms that she does, in fact, survive.

Interestingly, this would mean that D'Anna may have not have wanted Boomer to join the rebels on the one hand, and may not have wanted her to die on the other hand.

I listened to the Podcast too. I always believed that Boomer would survive. D'Anna saying "You better run, darling" could have a couple of meanings. Another meaning is that D'anna is telling Boomer to run or get the same fate has Cavil. I am not saying either way if D'Anna wants Boomer to survive or not. However, I do not think you can say either way by the podcast.

[Wouter]

Lately I am also considering Ellen Tigh strongly as final Cylon. I would far prefer Boomer because Ellen was never a sympathetic or interesting character for me (her stint on New Caprica excepted, to some extent), but Ellen also confirms to all the basic requirements and we may not even be 100% certain she really died on New Caprica. If she is a Cylon, she could be resistant to a poison that would easily kill a human Ellen, and int he confusion they might not have checked her body properly. In that case, she would have been left behind on New Caprica, so getting back in the story is a bit of a problem (guess nothing that some vision or hybrid can't solve).

The impact of Ellens reveal wouldn't be as dramatic as Boomer though; only on Saul himself would the impact be huge; Ellen had almost no firm ties beyond that. As a plus for her though, she was revealed to be in the fleet in somewhat mysterious circumstances and her relative loyalty to Tigh (when it comes to political matters or his survival, that is, like on New Caprica) is a curious contrast to her enormous disloyalty in marital matters.

She could be it, I just hope she isn't. Out of the "dead" characters, she probably is the one in pole position though, as her "dead" could be worked around relatively easily.

If it is one of the dead characters, shouldn't we be getting rumours about now about a certain guess star returning to the show though? Even if only supposedly for a vision, like we have indeed had with Ellen and Elosha in S4.0.

[cameraguyfresno]

Ellen isn't a strong candidate in my book....nor do I think any of the never seen characters of Zak..since I believe I read that RDM said there wouldn't be any new characters/actors in the final episodes.

If Boomer has any holes...she still has the most reasons for her than any other characters..or guesses.

I wonder how far we can take this conversation till 2009?

[Xenon242]

I wonder how far we can take this conversation till 2009?

As people re-watch the mini and the previous three series up to now, I suspect there will be endless iterations of the final Cylon discussion, with a lot of repitition ...

[cameraguyfresno]

hahahah...I suppose very true...as we discover new clues or what we think are new clues...

As people re-watch the mini and the previous three series up to now, I suspect there will be endless iterations of the final Cylon discussion, with a lot of repitition ...

[genji2000]

Lately I am also considering Ellen Tigh strongly as final Cylon. I would far prefer Boomer because Ellen was never a sympathetic or interesting character for me (her stint on New Caprica excepted, to some extent), but Ellen also confirms to all the basic requirements and we may not even be 100% certain she really died on New Caprica. If she is a Cylon, she could be resistant to a poison that would easily kill a human Ellen, and int he confusion they might not have checked her body properly. In that case, she would have been left behind on New Caprica, so getting back in the story is a bit of a problem (guess nothing that some vision or hybrid can't solve).

The impact of Ellens reveal wouldn't be as dramatic as Boomer though; only on Saul himself would the impact be huge; Ellen had almost no firm ties beyond that. As a plus for her though, she was revealed to be in the fleet in somewhat mysterious circumstances and her relative loyalty to Tigh (when it comes to political matters or his survival, that is, like on New Caprica) is a curious contrast to her enormous disloyalty in marital matters.

She could be it, I just hope she isn't. Out of the "dead" characters, she probably is the one in pole position though, as her "dead" could be worked around relatively easily.

If it is one of the dead characters, shouldn't we be getting rumours about now about a certain guess star returning to the show though? Even if only supposedly for a vision, like we have indeed had with Ellen and Elosha in S4.0.

There was an interesting post on imdb, which suggested Ellen might've been an older Six model. It begs questions like wouldn't Tigh have recognised Six as a younger Ellen, and (if Ellen resurrected as a Helfer Six) why doesn't Cavil resurrect as a young Cavil, but it's an interesting concept. You might also consider Ellen being the missing Seven, who is so similar to a Six that she can download into a Six body. And of course Ellen (as D'Anna might recognise her) isn't in the fleet, has been around since Season One, isn't in the Last Supper photo, has lived a life that she might welcome redemption from, etc., etc.

[cameraguyfresno]

imdb has whacky theories...

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

If that's the case, I would hope that Number Six would look far better older... :lol:

[genji2000]

If that's the case, I would hope that Number Six would look far better older... :lol:

Too cruel by far. She may not be Caprica Six, but she's no Cally either.

[Wouter]

IMO Cally (well, Nicky Cline) looks good - perhaps more in a "girl next door" way rather than supermodel way, but looking good certainly (when she isn't covered in dirt, of course).

As for how far we can take this conversation, I'm hoping on a bit of a new clue relatively soon. Galactica sitrep has promised us an interview with Michael Taylor, and I sent in a question asking if the promised "back, big time" for Boomer was yet to come in S4.5. Should be an interesting question to answer for Taylor if Boomer is the 5th - guess he will just say "yes, yet to come" or perhaps "watch and find out".

[genji2000]

IMO Cally (well, Nicky Cline) looks good - perhaps more in a "girl next door" way rather than supermodel way, but looking good certainly (when she isn't covered in dirt, of course).

Well, there's no accounting for taste. I think the dirt does a lot to cover up the odd blemish, like her face. BSG ever has.]

As for how far we can take this conversation, I'm hoping on a bit of a new clue relatively soon. Galactica sitrep has promised us an interview with Michael Taylor, and I sent in a question asking if the promised "back, big time" for Boomer was yet to come in S4.5. Should be an interesting question to answer for Taylor if Boomer is the 5th - guess he will just say "yes, yet to come" or perhaps "watch and find out".

Or maybe, "What? Boomer's dead."

[Pnutmaster]

Haha, I'm not a Firefly fan (I've only seen Serenity), but my question answered itself.

Is Cally not BSG's Kaylee? :p

[genji2000]

Haha, I'm not a Firefly fan (I've only seen Serenity), but my question answered itself.

Is Cally not BSG's Kaylee? :p

Not by a million light years.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Haha, I'm not a Firefly fan (I've only seen Serenity), but my question answered itself.

Is Cally not BSG's Kaylee? :p

No. Not by a long shot. Kaylee's a lot better lookin' and a lot smarter. :D

Plus Jewel Staite can act circles around Nicki Clyne.

Edit: Genji beat me to it.

[Wouter]

Or maybe, "What? Boomer's dead."
No, RDM has come right out and said she did survive, in the "Revelations" podcast (Espenson had already heavily hinted at this before). Can't use that line anymore. :D

[genji2000]

No, RDM has come right out and said she did survive, in the "Revelations" podcast (Espenson had already heavily hinted at this before). Can't use that line anymore. :D

Revelations or The Hub? I don't remember that from the Revelations podcast but I may have been not paying attention. I haven't listened to the podcast for The Hub.

[Wouter]

Of course, I meant "the hub", not revelations. There was also an interesting line about D'Anna in it; apparently, in an earlier version she was meant to say "time to run, darling" to Boomer after she killed Cavil.

[genji2000]

Of course, I meant "the hub", not revelations. There was also an interesting line about D'Anna in it; apparently, in an earlier version she was meant to say "time to run, darling" to Boomer after she killed Cavil.

Yeah I read that post where you mentioned it. I understand them dropping it but what a fantastic line for Lucy Lawless it would have been. Was it dropped before filming do you know, or might it be in the deleted scenes?

[Wouter]

Unfortunately, they didn't make this clear in the podcast. RDM said "I think there was more to that", and then Jane tells about the line. Unsure whether it was filmed but cut or not filmed at all.

[home_pw]

The last two podcasts were cagey. Given an excuse to punt to a less intimate podcontext (the equipment is broken), we saw what amounted to a desire to NOT discuss much the last two episodes - lest they reveal much about the final half-season (and the prequell planning).

lets not forget how far we have come, with the outing of the final four. Not only do they have any bg plan, not only do they have little special knowlege, they hardly even fit the boomer model : the sleeper. They are pretty clueless and missionless.

If anyone can hear the words of the choir in revelations, let me know. First, figure the language, and then the message. It reminds me harmonically of requiem m

What they do represent is the IDEA - that multiple cylon types exist.

[home_pw]

we know that for each reasonable theory about a characters role in the overall cylon story, the prequel exists to explain why theories about that character (once revealed) will reinforce the conclusion of the current series. We already know that the prequel is about the origins of cylons (as avatars, as being that inherits the game-player's religion ..., as related to Adam(a) by family ties)

For the ending to be satisfying in this series, theyr must be a thecore conundrum that spawns the prequel - that better explains the mysteries that lie within the current series. A two layer story, that is.

Since, with avatars creaing virtual worlds, inhabited by beings that can project virtual forest/cat worlds for their own happiness, we are already in a Godel Escher Bach type world of infinite regress and hyperbolic logics characterizing space/time paradoxes. And, what did we hear (hera) in the Revelations - a Bach Chorale, no less (that reminded me of Matthew's Passion, chromatically). Anyone manage to hear the words of the choir's missa solemnis? or even figure the language?

[Pnutmaster]

home_pw, all (http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=396) the information you could ever want about the music of Revelations.

I might also add, however irrelevant, that Bear refers to the planet as Earth multiple times. That is, Earth without quotation marks ;)

[genji2000]

home_pw, all (http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=396) the information you could ever want about the music of Revelations.

I might also add, however irrelevant, that Bear refers to the planet as Earth multiple times. That is, Earth without quotation marks ;)

Thanks Pnutty. That's was a great read whilst watching the scenes he was referring to. Yet another layer of excellence in the episode.

[cameraguyfresno]

Joe, loved your article about Lee being the final cylon. I mean it was brilliant! so what are your thoughts on the final cylon so far?

No. Not by a long shot. Kaylee's a lot better lookin' and a lot smarter. :D

Plus Jewel Staite can act circles around Nicki Clyne.

Edit: Genji beat me to it.

[genji2000]

The last two podcasts were cagey. Given an excuse to punt to a less intimate podcontext (the equipment is broken), we saw what amounted to a desire to NOT discuss much the last two episodes - lest they reveal much about the final half-season (and the prequell planning).

But at least they've managed to jib Yoko Moore and her overbearing and under-deserved status as episode commentator and guru.

Which I now retract because I always thought Yoko Ono was treated shockingly by the press and the public.

If not his wife, who else can a writer work through ideas with either during their composition or retrospectively?

Just a point I wanted to make.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

But at least they've managed to jib Yoko Moore and her overbearing and under-deserved status as episode commentator and guru.

Which I now retract because I always thought Yoko Ono was treated shockingly by the press and the public.

If not his wife, who else can a writer work through ideas with either during their composition or retrospectively?

Just a point I wanted to make.

Well, I'm sure Ron bounces some of his ideas off of her for the series. Still, she's not that directly involved with the series' development as people like to think...

In any event, I would much prefer hearing from Rymer, or another director, one of these days.

We should be grateful that RDM makes these podcasts at all, so I'm willing to bear with any... inconveniences... along the way.

[genji2000]

We should be grateful that RDM makes these podcasts at all, so I'm willing to bear with any... inconveniences... along the way.

The podcasts are a great episode-by-episode idea but I was disappointed that the DVDs (for Season 3 at least) didn't have proper commentary tracks including by the actors (well, not much), they just repeated the podcasts.

Very poor.

[smelly_feet]

Can someone who has the dvd set or the episode recording still on their pvr please watch season 1 episode 4 again? Pay attention to the scene just after the explosion. The inspector looks exactly like Cain to me. Can anyone confirm this or correct me? That could be a copy of Cain. Cain is the best candidate seeking redemption for her war crimes. Perhaps she has been exiled by her own cylons as punishment for what she did to #6. She certainly would need to seek redemption. So far she has been the most ruthless character on the series. My apologies if this has already been discussed.

cheers all.

[genji2000]

Can someone who has the dvd set or the episode recording still on their pvr please watch season 1 episode 4 again? Pay attention to the scene just after the explosion. The inspector looks exactly like Cain to me. Can anyone confirm this or correct me? That could be a copy of Cain. Cain is the best candidate seeking redemption for her war crimes. Perhaps she has been exiled by her own cylons as punishment for what she did to #6. She certainly would need to seek redemption. So far she has been the most ruthless character on the series. My apologies if this has already been discussed.

cheers all.

She does look like Cain. She looks more like Sgt. Hadrian though.

[smelly_feet]

lol thanks,

I googled a clearer picture. I should've rented the high def version of episode four :P

[Wouter]

I was listening to some pieces of the music in the final few episodes of S4.0. Some pieces for the soundtrack there, I hope: Gaeta's song, the entire ending of "Guess what's coming to dinner" (and also the sequence in the beginning when the baseship gets boarded), the battle music around the Hub and the triumphantic piece at reaching Earth.

I had already paid particular attention the the music playing when D'Anna is woken up (and turns to Boomer), but now I think I notice a clear resemblance between the notes being played then and when D'Anna identifies Tory and Tigh (and Anders and Tyrol, presumably) on the hangar deck of Galactica. Has this particular piece been used as a theme earlier or is this new?

[genji2000]

I had already paid particular attention the the music playing when D'Anna is woken up (and turns to Boomer), but now I think I notice a clear resemblance between the notes being played then and when D'Anna identifies Tory and Tigh (and Anders and Tyrol, presumably) on the hangar deck of Galactica. Has this particular piece been used as a theme earlier or is this new?

Given the complete absence of any explanatory notes for either motif in Bear McCreary's blog, my impression is that the melody behind D'Anna exiting the Raptor onto the Galactica hangar deck is the resolution of the first part, which plays during the D'Anna meets Boomer scene. Both are reminiscent of the eastern-sounding riff of Heeding The Call from Crossroads Part 2.

A note of caution, though. It's remotely possible that the motif is linked to D'Anna as the seeker of the Final Five.

When Tory boards the Raptor to leave with D'Anna for the rebel Basestar, the music switches back to the more familiar Final Five theme, as the visual focus shifts to Tigh, Tyrol and Anders.

McCreary promises blog updates throughout the summer as he works on the score for the last ten episodes, but he's fairly canny so I don't expect much to be given away.

[Wouter]

Given the complete absence of any explanatory notes for either motif in Bear McCreary's blog, my impression is that the melody behind D'Anna exiting the Raptor onto the Galactica hangar deck is the resolution of the first part, which plays during the D'Anna meets Boomer scene. Both are reminiscent of the eastern-sounding riff of Heeding The Call from Crossroads Part 2.
Glad you also seem to think those pieces (D'Anna meeting the 4 and D'Anna turning to Boomer) are closely related. And that Bear doesn't say anything about it on his blog is suspicious - he may have been told not to draw attention to that scene in"The hub".


A note of caution, though. It's remotely possible that the motif is linked to D'Anna as the seeker of the Final Five.

I agree. It is also played in later scenes on the hub, like when D'Anna notes that "the inhibitions have been lifted" and when she threatens to shout out the names of the FF. However, the first time it plays is curiously right before D'Anna starts questioning why Boomer, as an 8, is on Cavils side (and she is seemingly not talking about the FF then). People are looking for hints about the FF; I think we got one right there.


McCreary promises blog updates throughout the summer as he works on the score for the last ten episodes, but he's fairly canny so I don't expect much to be given away.
His updates are often very interesting though. Looking forward to them.

[genji2000]

His updates are often very interesting though. Looking forward to them.

Very much so. The blog for Revelations was, well, a revelation. I love getting that kind of detail about movies and TV shows - explanations about why the music does this or that. His description of the accompaniment for the destruction of the Hub was excellent. That he went with a sombre piece to stress the importance of the destruction of the Hub to the story (rather than a flashy space battle piece) ties in with the whole Natalie character, who I now think existed solely to emphasise what losing their resurrection capabilities means.

I'm really looking forward to whichever episode it is in 4.5 that uses the music and the orchestra in a new way, having the players on set and so forth.

[alpha5099]

I was watching The Hub and Revelations last night, and, in light of the theory that Boomer may be the Final Five, I found that a couple lines might be foreshadowing if that is in fact the direction they are headed in.

First of all, there's the interaction between D'Anna and Boomer that we've already discussed so much. While watching that scene, I began to wonder if there might be more to the scene. I don't think this has been discussed so far, but I'm thinking perhaps her questions about Boomer were as much a test of Cavil than of Boomer.

D'Anna wakes up, and is told that the Twos, Sixes, and Eights are in rebellion. She turns her head, and sees Boomer. Her first thought is "Wait, what's Boomer doing here? How much do they know already?" So, she asks her, "What's Boomer doing here? She's an Eight." (that might not be the exact quote, but it's close). Now, she watches Boomer carefully, to see what her reaction is, to see if she has any inkling of the fact that no, she is not an Eight. At the same time, she's listening for Cavil's response, to find out if he knows he has the final cylon with him. Presumably, his derisive "Pet Eight" comment satisfies her that he has no idea what the score is.

The other line that struck me as perhaps meaning more than it seems is when D'Anna, Helo, and the psuedo-Sharon are escaping, and Helo reveals that he has to take D'Anna to the president. D'Anna says something to the effect of "Double-dealing. Very human. Something you never got, Eight."

However, the most prominent Eight, at the start of the series at least, was Boomer. A sleeper agent. That's some pretty major backstabbing, apparently from a model line that doesn't really know how to betray others. Unless, of course, Boomer is not an Eight.

Maybe I'm over-parsing the show, but rewatching Season 4, I definitely saw some hints that maybe there is some foreshadowing going on for the Boomer reveal.

[Wouter]

As sleeper agent, Boomer herself wasn't aware of what she did (so she wasn't backstabbing anyone, rather, whoever programmed her was backstabbing her, big time), and the 8ths were not necessary the ones who programmed her (allthough they could have). It might have been an idea of the 3s or 1s, the most "leading" Cylon models.

Good call on her testing Cavil though, I agree that it looks like she is very attentive to both Boomer's and Cavil's reactions.

I was recently reminded (by a post on the Television without pity forum) that we have info from Aaron Douglas, which seems to contradict the general feeling (coming from interviews with Olmos and Juliani) that the reveal of the final Cylon will be only late in S4.5: http://community.livejournal.com/aarondouglas/112453.html

This was posted on his fansite in june, but the interview itself is from 14 May 2008. A very interesting piece:

"Did you form any theories on the identity of the last remaining Cylon God [sic]?
I was curious quite a bit but it was certainly a shock when I found out who it is. I never would have expected that person. It is revealed in the last thing we shot so if we don't come back, that will be the end of the show."

It is revealed in the last thing we shot???? This was before the strike ended IIRC, so this means that at least a version of "sometimes a great notion" exists where the final Cylon is actually revealed (whereas Juliani still didn't seem to know as of ep18). So, apparently only some select actors/characters learned the identity of the final one? And will the reveal still be in this episode, now that it will be the beginning of S4.5 rather than the very end of the show, as I suppose they could have prepared 2 versions of it depending on the result of the strike?

If it indeed is revealed in "Sometimes a great notion", then Boomer's chances take a a slight drop, I fear. What are the chances she gets to the fleet (or at least to Tigh and Tyrol, the one I suppose make the discovery) by that time? Or could they find out who the 5th is without her (or him) being present?

However, it is also a problem for the supposedly death characters, unless the fifth is supposed to be found on (not?-)Earth.

[genji2000]

If it indeed is revealed in "Sometimes a great notion", then Boomer's chances take a a slight drop, I fear. What are the chances she gets to the fleet (or at least to Tigh and Tyrol, the one I suppose make the discovery) by that time? Or could they find out who the 5th is without her (or him) being present? .

Why would she need to get to the colonial fleet to be revealed to the audience? Without knowing the purpose of the Final Five we can't guess what her role will be.

There's no indication yet that Tigh's "you're the Fifth" is from Sometimes A Great Notion, but if it is, if he's addressing Boomer, if this, if that, then where did she run away to when D'Anna killed Cavil? If she's the Fifth then she's been to Earth. Maybe she knows the way back. Heavy Raiders have FTL drives.

D'Anna could reveal the identity of the Fifth without him or her being present.

[Wouter]

All true. I guess I was influenced by Tigh seemingly addressing the fifth directly, but it doesn't have to be in "Sometimes a great notion" (and for all we know he could be talking to a picture instead of a live person).

I'm a bit pissed off now that they didn't show "sometimes a great notion" on the back of "revelations", as it is a finished product and there is no technical reason not to. However, I guess they absolutely wanted their big cliffhanger (and the hype surrounding both "(not?)Earth" and the final Cylon).

[Aegis]

Among the things that I don't understand about the theory that Boomer is the fifth cylon is this: D'Anna saw the final five's faces, so, assuming she saw a number eight, how could she tell it was Boomer?

[genji2000]

Among the things that I don't understand about the theory that Boomer is the fifth cylon is this: D'Anna saw the final five's faces, so, assuming she saw a number eight, how could she tell it was Boomer?

The humanoid Cylons recognise individual copies.

[Aegis]

The humanoid Cylons recognise individual copies.

I stand corrected then.

[BleuTango]

I thought we were told that humanoid cylons can't distinguish individuals within a model line... Wasn't that in Exodus? It doesn't really make sense, though, since everyone on occupied Caprica could obviously identify Caprica Six, and the D'anna recognizes the Eight who's grabbing the launch keys.

[Neakal]

You confused it. It is Centurions (who would be the doorguards of New Caprica Center for Torture and Pain' hence responsible for letting people in and out) who can't distuinguish. Humanoid models could and still can distinguish between models. As you mentioned, when Athena was getting the launch keys, D'Anna glanced at her and went `Oh my God its you`. I also have a feeling if a Cylon was to call (for example) `Eight` to a group of Eights, the Eight in question would respond and none of the rest. But thats my theory.

Back to topic. Now that the Talencephalic Inhibitors from the Centurions have been removed, I believe they can also distinguish between models as well. You can say thats how Natalie's Centurions targeted Ones, Fours and Fives but not Twos, Sixes and Eights.

[genji2000]

You confused it. It is Centurions (who would be the doorguards of New Caprica Center for Torture and Pain' hence responsible for letting people in and out) who can't distuinguish. Humanoid models could and still can distinguish between models. As you mentioned, when Athena was getting the launch keys, D'Anna glanced at her and went `Oh my God its you`. I also have a feeling if a Cylon was to call (for example) `Eight` to a group of Eights, the Eight in question would respond and none of the rest. But thats my theory.

Back to topic. Now that the Talencephalic Inhibitors from the Centurions have been removed, I believe they can also distinguish between models as well. You can say thats how Natalie's Centurions targeted Ones, Fours and Fives but not Twos, Sixes and Eights.

Nah, she would have just said "kill all the Ones, Fours and Fives in the room," because Centurions can differentiate between models, just not copies.

Or she might've just said, "kill everyone in the room except me."

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Actually, it's the Centurions who couldn't distinguish between individuals in a model line. The regular humanoid Cylons can distinguish one another.

[genji2000]

Actually, it's the Centurions who couldn't distinguish between individuals in a model line. The regular humanoid Cylons can distinguish one another.

Yeah, we know, but thanks for the input.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Yeah, we know, but thanks for the input.

No problem. :P

[Nicci]

It's Boomer.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.
3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.
4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.
5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2WWyAc1daI&feature=related
This was a good analysis until the last item. I got the impression from D'Anna she was disgusted with Boomer and her decisions. Cavil was Boomer's latest shiny something and D'Anna wasn't too happy with Cavil.

In Revelations, D'Anna said they loved and revered the Final Five. She certainly did not show Boomer love in the Hub.

[Wouter]

D'Anna is a sly one herself though - she didn't show Tigh much love either, when she smiled triumphantily to him in "Revelations" after Tory went with her, over his objection. And even less later when she tried to blackmail him and Tyrol and Anders to the base ship by starting to kill hostages (the whole stand off was not just with Lee and the colonials, it was also D'Anna trying to force the named 3 to join their "cousins").

D'Anna has never showed Boomer any love, she was already disgusted with her in "Downloaded": "you"re a waste" as she told Boomer then. Even if Boomer is the final Cylon, that may not change that initial dislike, and she may well be pissed off that she is friendly with the guy who boxed her (allthough kinda ironic as D'Anna once wanted Boomer and Cap-6 boxed - what comes around ...).

Anyway, if the "something shiny" was meant as a personal insult for Boomer (besides possibly a comment on 8s in general, or just to ruffle Cavil's feathers), it isn't a very apt insult because Boomer is actually rather loyal as she showed by still caring for Tyrol, and respecting his wishes (him being married and a father) on New Caprica. That she turned to Cavil afterwards only came about in extreme circumstances, as her human life really must have seen as being well behind her after the failure of New Caprica. Boomer hardly gives the impression that she changes her loyalty or her lover every week, as D'Anna seems to imply (allthough the 8s in general tend to be a bit wishy-washy).

Another way to view it as that D'Anna is anticipating a reunion between newly-revealed-Cylon Tyrol and Boomer, in which case he would be the "something shiny".

Interestingly, in the original script for "the hub" (may have actually been filmed and edited out, the podcast wasn't clear on that), D'Anna would tell Boomer "time to run, darling" after she had killed Cavil. I would have loved to hear Lucy Lawless deliver that line. It was mentioned in the podcast because this would have made it clearer that Boomer had time to escape from the hub (RDM confirmed outright that she did survive).

[Wouter]

Having rewatched "Rapture", I now notice that the music that we heard in "The hub", in the scenes with D'Anna, Cavil and Boomer, is all over the place in "Rapture", too. Apparently it is a bit of D'Anna theme (was it used for D'Anna before Eye of Jupiter/Rapture?). It is clearly recognizable when Baltar and D'Anna have a little talk on the planet, but before they enter the temple (Baltar says that she should lay her fate in the hands of God - probably what she later tells him he was right about). It also returns later as a part of the music when D'Anna has her ultimate vision, learning the faces of the FF (and remembering them, this time). Or actually, it is right before the vision, when she enters the temple with a Cavil.

Now I wonder whether it is solely a theme for D'Anna. It always seems connected with the final five, though talk about them is enough.

Also interesting in "Rapture": the (present) leader 8 is not at all happy with D'Anna and her fellow 3: "she defied the group!!". Looks like Boomer's independent action may have earned her some serious enmity from other 8s then, as the groupthinking may be as important for them as for Natalie. Leoben also is quite disgusted by what the 3s are doing, and Caprica-6 (or perhaps just a random 6) is also unhappy. Cavil was definitely not alone in the boxing thing, the rebel models are a bit hypocrite when they blame him alone for the boxing: those 3 models were actually the ones that seemed most supportive of Cavil's action, back when it happened.

Also remarkable: the Cylon theme, playing when Tyrol surprises Baltar and knocks him out. It's quite clear in this episode that the decision to make Tyrol a Cylon had been taken, by this point.

[Andromeda]

Hello all, this is my first post on this forum. I'm a recent BSG fan (although I absolutely loved the original when I was growing up...) and I suppose I've come into all this theorizing a little late. Forgive me if I've missed something along the way. I've read through most of this thread but am a bit short of time right now. It's likely someone has mentioned these things before, but just in case, regarding this:

Cavil: Your supporters are working with humans against all the rest of us. All in your name.
D'Anna (turning to face Boomer, cue music): Boomer's an Eight. Shouldn't she be on the other side?
Cavil: Boomer's my pet Eight. She's seen the light of reason. An Eight can make a passionate ally.
D'Anna: Until she sees something shiny.

I don't think D'Anna's remark is evidence for Boomer being one of the final five or "clawing for the light." I interpret D'Anna's remark about Boomer switching allegiances when she "sees something shiny" as a facetious reference to Cavil's prior "saw the light of reason" remark. Or to put it another way, Cavil's "light of reason" is not true light, but instead a derogatory "shiny" thing.

Now, I personally hope Boomer is not the final cylon because her defiance shows evolution, and I like the idea that the cylons are changing and "evolving." I find it interesting that the centurions are evolving and developing free will. I'd also like to think that the models are on a similar evolutionary path and are becoming free-thinking individuals in their own right. I think this fits well into the "children growing up" theme in BSG... But this is another theory altogether.

Has anyone considered the possibility that rather than there being a seven and an eight, there might be a six and a seven? I'm curious about the idea that Ellen might be a version of the number six. There certainly seems to be something between Ellen, Tigh and number six. I haven't really convinced myself this, but the idea of Ellen being either another prototype of the six or an older six seems like it would be a really interesting plot development. They are both manipulative, "seductress" personalities, the character Ellen just appeared very suddenly, and there was something funny about Gaius' cylon test at the time.

Anyway, I'm reading some fascinating stuff on this forum. Nice to meet you all. :)

[Prolescum]

How do you do Andromeda, welcome to the forum.
I actually want it to be Boomer so am not best placed to comment...

[bradtem]

As for Boomer, after D'Anna sees the final five, she wakes up and tells Cavil, "There are five other cylons Brother, and you will see them one day. One day."

This doesn't jibe well with her seeing a #8 in the temple. Mind you it remains curious that she didn't say "and you have already seen them."

[Andromeda]

Nice to meet you, Prolescum. And that's an interesting point, Bradtem.

So I finally got to the last three pages, and I find your discussion about Ellen!

There was an interesting post on imdb, which suggested Ellen might've been an older Six model. It begs questions like wouldn't Tigh have recognised Six as a younger Ellen, and (if Ellen resurrected as a Helfer Six) why doesn't Cavil resurrect as a young Cavil, but it's an interesting concept. You might also consider Ellen being the missing Seven, who is so similar to a Six that she can download into a Six body. And of course Ellen (as D'Anna might recognise her) isn't in the fleet, has been around since Season One, isn't in the Last Supper photo, has lived a life that she might welcome redemption from, etc., etc.

I'm intrigued by the idea of Ellen being a six, although I'm wondering if that is ruled out given the picture younger Tigh was holding in the Miniseries. Ellen in the picture does have similar hair, but i don't think there's any mistaking her for six. I'm hoping to see something that explains Tigh's obsession with six, soon.

[bradtem]

Nice to meet you, Prolescum. And that's an interesting point, Bradtem.


I'm intrigued by the idea of Ellen being a six, although I'm wondering if that is ruled out given the picture younger Tigh was holding in the Miniseries. Ellen in the picture does have similar hair, but i don't think there's any mistaking her for six. I'm hoping to see something that explains Tigh's obsession with six, soon.

You don't need a reason for Tigh's obsession with six. You have seen Tricia Helfer, right? :)

More seriously, he's trying to figure out what it is to be a Cylon, and here's a hot sexy Cylon in the brig that he can be alone with, one not married to one of his officers.

[Prolescum]

I think the obsession could be described as 4 parts lust, 3 parts sorrow, 1 part subconscious Cylonic solidarity.

[Hofner1962]

I'm intrigued by the idea of Ellen being a six, although I'm wondering if that is ruled out given the picture younger Tigh was holding in the Miniseries. Ellen in the picture does have similar hair, but i don't think there's any mistaking her for six. I'm hoping to see something that explains Tigh's obsession with six, soon.

I believe the picture used in the mini was a picture of David Eick's wife. Later when they needed an actress they cast Kate Vernon. I don't think she is an old 6. My reasons for this are in the Ellen Tigh Theory thread in this post
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=31772&postcount=34

It is just what I think - other people think other things. Can you believe some folks even think that the final cylon is Boomer? :):(:lol::mad::p;):thumbsup::D

My personal feeling is that him seeing her face on 6 is a manifestation of his grief/guilt. Once again - many people's opinions whom I respect think it is more.
What I think is more interesting is when he was getting it on with 6, did he "love" her because he was picturing her as Ellen and if so, was this the key to her getting pregnant.

[Prolescum]

Enough with the smileys, Hof...

[The Dirt]

Awkward...

[Prolescum]

I meant it in the friendliest possible way.

If he'd dissed my mum, on the other hand...

[Hofner1962]

I meant it in the friendliest possible way.

If he'd dissed my mum, on the other hand...

I knew someone would comment. I thought about editing and adding all of the other ones under [More] (note the absence of smiley here - I figure I have used my allotment for a time.)

[Prolescum]

http://splforum.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sauf.gif

[Andromeda]

What I think is more interesting is when he was getting it on with 6, did he "love" her because he was picturing her as Ellen and if so, was this the key to her getting pregnant.I've wondered about that. I've also wondered if the "final five" mirror the biology of humans better than their cousins and are therefore more fertile, which would explain why Saul + Six would produce offspring when Cylons theoretically shouldn't be able to do so. I suppose it's possible that if the seven are mere downloads that their biological imperative isn't perfect. Or hey... maybe it is Gaius' baby? I guess it's all speculation, and I'm sure you've all seen it before. And I suppose it's also possible that a creature isn't able to create life unless they have the capacity to truly die?

I also kinda wonder if Hera's prophesy belongs to Six's baby, and if the opera house dream is a metaphorical message that Six is the true mother of the baby of the prophesy. Or did I read that it was certain the prophesy did refer to Hera? But... I guess I'm digressing from the thread!

Again, sorry for my "nuggetness." I'm finding everyone's thoughts to be very enlightening, and I have so many ideas and questions that probably won't be addressed till the series is done. It's kind of cathartic to discuss here. If I broach on something that's already been said, please don't be afraid to let me know, and I'll be happy to go read more about it.

[genji2000]

How do you do Andromeda, welcome to the forum.
I actually want it to be Boomer so am not best placed to comment...

I'm going to be a bit dour here.

We know it's not Boomer now, don't we? Or are we clinging to the hope that the imminent reveal will prove to be false later in S4.5? I'm all for that but with Hinman's list, the YWKTT clue in which Lee faces the press questions about the identity of the Final Cylon, and the wording of the article in The Star (http://www.battlestarforum.com/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=22) that in the next episode we will learn "something huge about the mysterious final Cylon", rather than his or her identity, we do accept that Boomer's probably not the one, right? Or are we in denial?

Yeah - welcome Andy. Feel free (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1577).

This doesn't jibe well with her seeing a #8 in the temple. Mind you it remains curious that she didn't say "and you have already seen them."

Curious, yes since all except Tory of the Watchtower Four were very well known to Cavil. Once they are switched on perhaps the Final Five become somehow apparent to the S7, so this certainly doesn't preclude Boomer, who, incidentally, as far as the theory goes, is not an Eight, and cannot be because Eights are S7, not F5. D'Anna certainly didn't see an Eight in the temple.

More seriously, he's trying to figure out what it is to be a Cylon, and here's a hot sexy Cylon in the brig that he can be alone with, one not married to one of his officers.

That was good up to "hot sexy". It's more a case of Tigh trying to understand what it means to be a Cylon. All the WTF are in a no-man's land at the moment. They know they're Cylons, and they know they're somehow different to the S7, but they're all interpreting it in different ways. Until they can understand their own F5 nature they're floundering and Tigh is floundering with Caprica Six. I don't think sexual gratification comes into it - Tigh's confusion I mean, not the Cylon. I also don't think the visualisations of Ellen are representative of his sudden love or yearning for Caprica Six. I think there's a connection in his mind between the way he saw Ellen and the way he sees Caprica Six. I don't think Ellen is an old Six. I doubt now that she's a different 'model', the missing Seven that the Sixes are based on. It's possible, but it doesn't have the same allure as the same scenario for Boomer because Ellen was such a godawful character. However, she only appeared, what? ten years ago (seven years married to Tigh plus three on the run from the S7?), so all the "Boomer lived amongst the Cylons and guided their development of the S7 and resurrection tech" could be switched over to Ellen. I think Tigh just sees a certain Cylon glint in Caprica Six's eye that he recognises...

I also kinda wonder if Hera's prophesy belongs to Six's baby, and if the opera house dream is a metaphorical message that Six is the true mother of the baby of the prophesy. Or did I read that it was certain the prophesy did refer to Hera?

This sounds like you're confusing Caprica Six with Head Six. Caprica Six and Baltar are the parents of the future of 'mankind' in Head Six's opinion - metaphorical parents of the shape of things to come. She doesn't mean Baltar (who hasn't shagged Caprica Six since the Basestar days) and one of the Sixes are literal biological parents of Hera. For one thing, Head Six is not a Six, so she's not talking about the Sixes.

But... I guess I'm digressing from the thread!

Are you kidding?

Again, sorry for my "nuggetness." I'm finding everyone's thoughts to be very enlightening, and I have so many ideas and questions that probably won't be addressed till the series is done. It's kind of cathartic to discuss here. If I broach on something that's already been said, please don't be afraid to let me know, and I'll be happy to go read more about it.

Sometimes a new outlook on threadbare threads can spark off new perspectives.

[Prolescum]

Or are we in denial?Dunno about you, but I am.

[genji2000]

Dunno about you, but I am.

Cool. I'm happy to go with the flow.

There are meant to be a number of extended episodes in the S4.5 DVD release, so maybe we should hold on until then, just on the off-chance.

[crackedactor]

This sounds like you're confusing Caprica Six with Head Six. Caprica Six and Baltar are the parents of the future of 'mankind' in Head Six's opinion - metaphorical parents of the shape of things to come. She doesn't mean Baltar (who hasn't shagged Caprica Six since the Basestar days) and one of the Sixes are literal biological parents of Hera. For one thing, Head Six is not a Six, so she's not talking about the Sixes.


Oh Genj... :) I think Andromeda means the prophesy that has so far been centred around Hera could actually be misdirection and instead it could be transferred onto Caprica 6's unborn child (with posssibly Tigh as the biological father and Baltar as an adoptive one).

I don't think its likely however, why would Athena be in the Opera House dreams/visions if the prophesy wasn't about her baby?

[genji2000]

More to the point, why would the Opera House visions (including just before Natalie was killed) specifically revolve around Hera? The prophecy is non-transferable, surely? You can't confuse Head Six with Caprica Six or Hera with Tigh Jr.

Maybe I should have said "I think you're trying to confuse" one with the other. In any case, I don't see how you can throw Tigh Jr. into Head Six's preaching. Why not do it with Nicky Tyrol too?

[crackedactor]

Maybe all Cylon babies look the same!:yikes:

[genji2000]

I really don't understand the prophecy shifting idea. I don't get what Andy's trying to say.

[crackedactor]

Its a worthwhile question though, and one the writers seem to want to avoid...

Now there are multiple Cylon progeny why is Hera so special? Why aren't they ALL special...?

[Prolescum]

Everyone thinks their kids are special. The other hybrid children will have their place, I'm sure, but Hera has a specific role, hence her importance overall. I don't think the prophesy is changeable, and the other children are just pleasant additions to the future.

[crackedactor]

Hmmm... I'd understand if she was still the ONLY example of human/cylon procreation, this was why she was so valuable all through seasons 2 and 3, but she isn't anymore so now she's the first of a new species of hybrid and not the ONLY hybrid.

We've got:
Cally and Tyrol. I can kinda get behind this one not being so much of a big deal actually. Maybe Cylon men have an easier time impregnating human women (the experimentation on Caprica focused on using human women as "farms").

Tigh and Caprica 6. With 6 being pregnent it completely dilutes the importance of Hera being the "first of a new generation". In fact having any other child as part of the series whilst Hera's status as "first" is important seems counter productive.

Hera died, oh well, here's another! and so on.

I'm sure it won't be addressed in the show I just think choosing Tyrol (or giving him a kid) was a mistake and making 6 pregnant just to "out" Tigh was also a bad plot device.

[genji2000]

Hmmm... I'd understand if she was still the ONLY example of human/cylon procreation, this was why she was so valuable all through seasons 2 and 3, but she isn't anymore so now she's the first of a new species of hybrid and not the ONLY hybrid.

We've got:
Cally and Tyrol. I can kinda get behind this one not being so much of a big deal actually. Maybe Cylon men have an easier time impregnating human women (the experimentation on Caprica focused on using human women as "farms").

This *SPOILER* (http://syfyportal.com/news425133.html) from SyFy addresses the same question. It's more of a big deal than you think according to Aaron Douglas, who says it will be addressed in S4.5 (can't remember where - it's out there).

Tyrol's Final Five, though. Hera's the only child born of human and S7 parents (so far).

Tigh and Caprica 6. With 6 being pregnent it completely dilutes the importance of Hera being the "first of a new generation". In fact having any other child as part of the series whilst Hera's status as "first" is important seems counter productive.

Tigh's Final Five, though.

Hera died, oh well, here's another! and so on.

I'm sure it won't be addressed in the show I just think choosing Tyrol (or giving him a kid) was a mistake and making 6 pregnant just to "out" Tigh was also a bad plot device.
I doubt either of them are mistakes and they'll both have roles to furfill. At the moment though, being the child of a F5 doesn't seem all that important.

Hera's importance to Roslin and the Colonials comes from where? I can't remember. Baltar gets the willies about her from Head Six but who gives Roslin the willies enough for her to call Hera "the shape of things to come"? Was it just the miracle cancer cure?

The Colonials have only just discovered that Nicky's a cybrid, so the characters haven't had enough time to process how important he is. Head Six didn't know who was F5 and who wasn't did she?

The Colonials haven't had much time to digest the importance of Tigh Jr. as the child of a Cylon woman and human man. Now they know Tigh's a Cylon they'll be just as confused as we are.

[Arista]

Regardless, wouldn't Hera always be the first since she was-- well, the first? I don't think her role is any less important because of Nicky or Tigh, Jr.

However, I do find Tigh, Jr. to be more interesting in a way. It's two Cylons creating a child, which according to the Cylons hasn't been done before. Of course, hasn't it been said before that the F5 are "different" than the S7? I'd love to know exactly what that difference is.

[Prolescum]

Nicky's a cybridClass.

[genji2000]

Regardless, wouldn't Hera always be the first since she was-- well, the first? I don't think her role is any less important because of Nicky or Tigh, Jr.

However, I do find Tigh, Jr. to be more interesting in a way. It's two Cylons creating a child, which according to the Cylons hasn't been done before. Of course, hasn't it been said before that the F5 are "different" than the S7? I'd love to know exactly what that difference is.

For a kick-off they're thousands of years old and weren't developed sometime in the last forty years as the S7 were. They also don't resurrect and there aren't multiple copies of them - they're individuals. They don't seem to have any problem with procreation either (quite the reverse given that Tigh's old, a drinker and a smoker).

There are more hints here (http://www.battlestarforum.com/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=33).

[Arista]

For a kick-off they're thousands of years old and weren't developed sometime in the last forty years as the S7 were. They also don't resurrect and there aren't multiple copies of them - they're individuals. They don't seem to have any problem with procreation either (quite the reverse given that Tigh's old, a drinker and a smoker).

There are more hints here (http://www.battlestarforum.com/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=33).
Can I play the "what if" game? Though probably not an original thought, what if the F5 equate to our modern humans as found here on Earth right now? I think most people assume that BSG's timeline is the same as ours, but what if it's not? What if it's actually taking place in the future? What if the F5 are actually closer to "humans" than the Colonials?

[crackedactor]

For a kick-off they're thousands of years old and weren't developed sometime in the last forty years as the S7 were. They also don't resurrect and there aren't multiple copies of them - they're individuals. They don't seem to have any problem with procreation either (quite the reverse given that Tigh's old, a drinker and a smoker).

There are more hints here (http://www.battlestarforum.com/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=33).

I want to see this in the programme before I accept its gospel truth (I'm cynical).
The final 5 are different but those differences have not been explained in BSG itself. Making the Final 5 "thousands of years old" is bizarre and doesn't fit with the "there are twelve models" line because there AREN'T twelve Cylon models, there are 7 Cylons and then there are 5 something elses (forgive me, I'm going to be very billigerent on this one until its in the programme, I expect to eat humble pie but not yet ;)).[/s

Regardless of all this it still means another Cylon is pregnant regardless of the father's species (one expects the S7 Cylons tried procreation at some point to work out they couldn't do it).

I don't think I even want to believe the Adam and Eve theory for Nicky and Hera. I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that the writers are just going to "ignore" Nicky and his lineage.

[Andromeda]

I don't think I was confusing Head Six and Caprica Six, or at least I wasn't doing it consciously...

Regarding Head Six: I really don't know what to think of Head Six's declaration that Athena's baby was actually Gauis' baby. We know Head Six was right in that the human-cylon baby was a very special baby, and I don't think Gauis could have known that without her telling him. This seems to indicate that Head Six might be some external intelligence that is passing Gauis information, and as such, anything she says could be real or metaphorical. I'm not sure why she led him to believe that Hera was his child, unless she was being metaphorical (as you pointed out Genji), or was maneuvering Gauis to save the child later on. I find it really hard to get anything out of the head characters.

But I was really musing on the shared vision at the opera house in which Hera runs to Caprica Six. The six in the vision must be Caprica Six, because Caprica Six shares that vision with the others. That, and Hera's sketch book filled with pictures of Six, points to some special role Caprica six has in the Hera prophesy. Since we now know she's going to have her own cylon baby I have to wonder if the visions are meant to point to Six's own child. If Hera is special because she is the first of a new generation of cylon-human hybrids, then the other kids could be just as important... if Hera is Eve, she'll need an Adam to fulfill that destiny. (Unless she decides to re-mix with her human or cylon family, but that just wouldn't be as interesting!)

There is a way that Head Six could fit into this prophesy. It is possible Head Six is being prophetic when she reveals Gauis' child at the opera house. Technically, her revelation could refer to either Athena's or Caprica Six's baby (or, I suppose, any of the hybrid babies!). It is interesting that all five (Gauis, Caprica Six, Hera, Roslin and Athena) had opera house visions (and that Gauis just happens to be "the father" in one of those visions). It would be odd to have Athena in the vision if she weren't the mother--but I think it could go either way. Right now we don't really know why Caprica Six is in the vision, either. Or, for that matter, why Gauis is in the vision!

It's also possible that the entity that is "Head Six" might be responsible for both visions. But--man! I didn't intend to get so confusing!

Thanks for sharing the spoiler link.

I've always wondered about the origins of the F5 and their connection to earth. I suppose it wouldn't be appropriate to discuss the details here... but it raises so many questions. And I agree, if this is the case, then it seems entirely likely we earthlings could be related. On the other hand, if one of the F5 were actually Boomer, I wonder how that would be explained in the context of the spoiler?

That's the problem with BSG. If you try to answer one question, you get ten more...

[genji2000]

I want to see this in the programme before I accept its gospel truth (I'm cynical).

That's true of all the hints and spoilers. There are no guarantees (except Joe's, and it's even conceivable that anything he has confirmed is 'from a certain point of view').

The final 5 are different but those differences have not been explained in BSG itself. Making the Final 5 "thousands of years old" is bizarre and doesn't fit with the "there are twelve models" line because there AREN'T twelve Cylon models, there are 7 Cylons and then there are 5 something elses (forgive me, I'm going to be very billigerent on this one until its in the programme, I expect to eat humble pie but not yet ;)).[/s

There are twelve Cylon models as far as the S7 are concerned, who are the root of the information, or so the argument goes. IMO the 'twelve models' was not just Caprica Six telling Baltar or Baltar leaving a note for Adama - it is a cast iron commitment from the Writers to the audience. It's one of the rules, like Cylons can't procreate amongst themselves or without love, and it has to be honoured. The fact is the Final Five are Cylons (whatever a Cylon is - to me it means they're synthetic originally man-made creations), they are fundamentally different (they may or may not be individually thousands of years old, but they are a different form of Cylon and they're from the previous cycle), and 7+5=12.

Regardless of all this it still means another Cylon is pregnant regardless of the father's species (one expects the S7 Cylons tried procreation at some point to work out they couldn't do it).

You can't disregard the father.

I don't think I even want to believe the Adam and Eve theory for Nicky and Hera. I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that the writers are just going to "ignore" Nicky and his lineage.

Equally I'm pretty sure I've read that Aaron Douglas said that Nicky and his importance will be tackled in S4.5. I don't like the Adam and Eve idea either.

Some spoilers are quite old and may have been rewritten during the writers' strike.:lol:

[timbo]

I doubt either of them are mistakes and they'll both have roles to furfill.



I agree completely that they have their roles to furfill. AND remember, they are not head characters.

[genji2000]

I don't think I was confusing Head Six and Caprica Six, or at least I wasn't doing it consciously...

I think the confusion was mine. I don't understand what you mean by transferring Head Six's claim onto Caprica Six. They're completely different individuals.

Regarding Head Six: I really don't know what to think of Head Six's declaration that Athena's baby was actually Gauis' baby.

Head Six and Gaius are ushering in the new religion (remember, monotheism was banished after the armistice when the Cylons fled into deep space, so although it existed then it's new in BSG's timeframe), and Hera is the first child of that new religion. I can't think of a good analogy other than we are all God's children. Literally and bilogically we're not, but metaphorically we are.

We know Head Six was right in that the human-cylon baby was a very special baby, and I don't think Gauis could have known that without her telling him. This seems to indicate that Head Six might be some external intelligence that is passing Gauis information, and as such, anything she says could be real or metaphorical. I'm not sure why she led him to believe that Hera was his child, unless she was being metaphorical (as you pointed out Genji), or was maneuvering Gauis to save the child later on. I find it really hard to get anything out of the head characters.

I can't remember the exact scene or episode but there is a moment when Gaius despairs of being a father figure (along the lines of "I can't even look after myself") - his phrasing indicates that he understand exactly that he's not the biological father but is meant to play the father figure - a role he of all people is particularly unsuited to play.

But I was really musing on the shared vision at the opera house in which Hera runs to Caprica Six. The six in the vision must be Caprica Six, because Caprica Six shares that vision with the others.

I don't know. Others might be able to answer this better. The vision seems to very definitely show that it is Head Six not Caprica Six. However, after they've shared the vision and Athena and Roslin ask Caprica Six about it she says "I knew I had to protect Hera with my life" or something. Caprica Six clearly sees herself in the vision. I seem to remember a discussion about who is in the vision coming to the conclusion that it was Head Six, but I can't work it out.

That, and Hera's sketch book filled with pictures of Six, points to some special role Caprica six has in the Hera prophesy.

It's very definitely Head Six in Hera's mind because of the red dress in her drawings.

Since we now know she's going to have her own cylon baby I have to wonder if the visions are meant to point to Six's own child.

This is what I don't understand. No. It's Hera in the visions.

If Hera is special because she is the first of a new generation of cylon-human hybrids, then the other kids could be just as important... if Hera is Eve, she'll need an Adam to fulfill that destiny. (Unless she decides to re-mix with her human or cylon family, but that just wouldn't be as interesting!)

There is a way that Head Six could fit into this prophesy. It is possible Head Six is being prophetic when she reveals Gauis' child at the opera house. Technically, her revelation could refer to either Athena's or Caprica Six's baby (or, I suppose, any of the hybrid babies!). It is interesting that all five (Gauis, Caprica Six, Hera, Roslin and Athena) had opera house visions (and that Gauis just happens to be "the father" in one of those visions). It would be odd to have Athena in the vision if she weren't the mother--but I think it could go either way. Right now we don't really know why Caprica Six is in the vision, either. Or, for that matter, why Gauis is in the vision!

It's also possible that the entity that is "Head Six" might be responsible for both visions. But--man! I didn't intend to get so confusing!

Thanks for sharing the spoiler link.

I've always wondered about the origins of the F5 and their connection to earth. I suppose it wouldn't be appropriate to discuss the details here... but it raises so many questions. And I agree, if this is the case, then it seems entirely likely we earthlings could be related. On the other hand, if one of the F5 were actually Boomer, I wonder how that would be explained in the context of the spoiler?

That's the problem with BSG. If you try to answer one question, you get ten more...

True. There are other active threads discussing the background of the F5. Try Quick Links / Today's Posts. And how about that Getting-to-know-you-thread?

I agree completely that they have their roles to furfill. AND remember, they are not head characters.

Yes of course. Definitely not head characters.

[Andromeda]

If the spoiler is true...

It raises an interesting paradox. If the F5 are cylons, and if the people of earth may very well be cylon or part cylon, then who made the F5? Are they the "Lords of Kobol"? This would reflect the theme that everything has happened before, and will happen again.

But if this were the case, the F5 would be no relation to the S7, and the S7 should know nothing about them, nor should they be programmed not to think of them. We know that a human from the colonies designed the "first" cylon, and there is no way he would have had knowledge of the F5. The only way to explain this would be to suppose that the S7 and the F5 are completely unrelated to the colony-created centurions. This idea is just too full of holes for me to swallow.

Edit: Ahh, sorry. :) Posted this before I got your reply. I'll definitely look at the other threads.

[genji2000]

If the spoiler is true...

It raises an interesting paradox. If the F5 are cylons, and if the people of earth may very well be cylon or part cylon, then who made the F5? Are they the "Lords of Kobol"? This would reflect the theme that everything has happened before, and will happen again.

Well, we don't know... All we really know is that they're Cylons from the previous cycle. The obvious inference is that they were created by the 'humans' of the previous cycle.

But if this were the case, the F5 would be no relation to the S7, and the S7 should know nothing about them, nor should they be programmed not to think of them.

Unless once of them influenced the creation of the S7.

We know that a human from the colonies designed the "first" cylon, and there is no way he would have had knowledge of the F5. The only way to explain this would be to suppose that the S7 and the F5 are completely unrelated to the colony-created centurions. This idea is just too full of holes for me to swallow.

Edit: Ahh, sorry. :) Posted this before I got your reply. I'll definitely look at the other threads.

What holes? I could swallow it, I think. Part of the cycle is that man creates AI to do all the dirty jobs.

[the lieutenant]

As much as all the evidence seems to point to the fact of Boomer being the final cylon, I refuse to give up my theory of Romo being the one. It's just a hunch. It just seems so arbitrary to bring up a character like that and keep it going after the trial. What worries me the most is the thing about the final cylon being present since season one. Did the producers actually say that or rather that they had decided who the final cylon was in season one?

[Prolescum]

They said that the character who is the FC has been touted in the writing room as the FC since season one. Or similar.

[Hofner1962]

What holes? I could swallow it, I think. Part of the cycle is that man creates AI to do all the dirty jobs.
If only this thread were in Joes Bar . . .

Anyway, I think there has been some evolution in the vision. When Baltar first has it on Kobol. It is definitely Head 6. She leads him through the ruins and then is in the vision with him wearing the same thing. Remember however that at this time, they were implying heavily that head 6 was a projection of Cap 6. Also, in the first vision, Hera is in a crib - incidentally, the same one that she actually occupied on New Caprica (that's for all the there is no real prophecy people out there)

Season 2 arrives and Head 6 starts talking about Athena having "our" baby. Initially I just looked at this the same way a couple who had hired a surrogate might similarly refer to our baby even though the mother was not one of the couple.

Then comes Downloaded. Now it is clear that Cap 6 is not actively IMing Baltar across space. It is also clear that she loved him. I surmise that the reason she kept asking "Do you love me?" is that she wanted to get pregnant and that the reason that she didn't is that he didn't love her. *deleted reference to recent Joe's Bar thread - continues humming catchy little ditty*

After this the vision changes to the chase Hera version. Now the former ambiguity of Head 6/Cap 6 is a problem because I think it is clear that Cap 6 thinks it is her. Also, I don't think you get any more references from Head 6 regarding this vision. Also, Baltar is not participating even though he was the first to have the vision.

The f5 cylons seem to be universal sperm donors - being able to impregnate humans and cylon clones alike. I asked the question before whether the fact that Tigh pictures 6 as Ellen and loves Ellen is why 6 can get pregnant. I also wonder if Chief really loved Cally or does that matter. Maybe the F5 can knock up humans just like humans can - love or no.

I think Hera is special - she is the only S7/Human offspring. Also, interesting is that no S7 men have managed to impregnate a human woman

[Prolescum]

*deleted reference to recent Joe's Bar thread - continues humming catchy little ditty*Even humming that outside Joe's Bar can provoke an infraction...
Maybe the F5 can knock up humans just like humans can - love or no. I think this is probably true.

[Pnutmaster]

I think Hera is special - she is the only S7/Human offspring. Also, interesting is that no S7 men have managed to impregnate a human woman

I think Hera's special because she is the spiritual child of Head Six and Baltar (nod towards the Return of Starbuck). Nicholas is just a crop pulled from the cabbage field *Joe's Bar material indeed*

[Vesihiisi]

After this the vision changes to the chase Hera version. Now the former ambiguity of Head 6/Cap 6 is a problem because I think it is clear that Cap 6 thinks it is her.My initial impression was that of Caprica Six in the vision, mostly because she did not look as confident as Head Six usually does, and it would be much simpler that way, but...

When I compare Head Six assisting Baltar in hanging himself to Caprica Six in the brig on Galactica, it seems that Head Six is not quite as blonde as Caprica Six, and I have this general impression from other scenes also, which I have not checked. (However, if I compare the ladies as they are seen one after the other when Baltar finds Hera on New Caprica, it is difficult to see any difference in hair colour. This may of course be due to the convenience of not having to go through dying one's hair in the middle of shooting.)

Unfortunately, there is a general red/yellowish tint to the opera house vision scene, so it is a bit difficult to see the hair colour of the Six for certain, but comparing it to the white hat of Hera, it seems to me that it would not be as blonde as Caprica Six. (Assuming of course, that the producers are kind enough to oblige by making an accurate choice of colour.)

Anyway, disregarding the fact that the colour of the hair of a female is not known to be a reliable constant in general, I may have to grudgingly conclude that it may be Head Six shown in the Opera house vision, but that would then imply a closer link between the ladies than previously has been indicated.

On second though, I think I'll still go with Caprica Six and forget about the silly hair colour thing.

[crackedactor]

On second though, I think I'll still go with Caprica Six and forget about the silly hair colour thing.

I think H6 was showing Baltar the "future", as it were, because by that point no-one knew about Helo and Athena.
The later visions including Athena, Roslin and Caprica 6 used the same location as the focus is on Hera and I think the important connection is between Hera and the Opera House.
I can't think of a good reason why Baltar doesn't have the visions along with the others though.

[Vesihiisi]

On second though, I think I'll still go with Caprica Six and forget about the silly hair colour thing.I think H6 was showing Baltar the "future", as it were, because by that point no-one knew about Helo and Athena.
The later visions including Athena, Roslin and Caprica 6 used the same location as the focus is on Hera and I think the important connection is between Hera and the Opera House.
I can't think of a good reason why Baltar doesn't have the visions along with the others though.??? How does the main post relate to the quote? Agree? Disagree? Elaborate? Ridicule? Just being curious.

In case of any ambiguity, the original quote refers to the vision at the beginning of Crossroads, Part 2.

[crackedactor]

??? How does the main post relate to the quote? Agree? Disagree? Elaborate? Ridicule? Just being curious.

I decided not to quote all the rambling about hair colour and just used the conclusion :)
I guess I was agreeing it was Cap 6 in the main visions and elaborating on other stuff (like how it could be both 6's without changing either vision's ultimate message).

Is this a test?

[Vesihiisi]

No test, I actually thought that you might have been disagreeing, because immediately after the quote you spoke of Head Six. Like I said, I was curious, whether you actually were agreeing or disagreeing.

My deepest and most sincere apologies for the rambling. :)

[crackedactor]

My deepest and most sincere apologies for the rambling. :)


Oh dear me don't apolgise for rambling!! Thats what forums are all about ;)

In fact it wasn't just your post that inspired my reply, it was a variety of sentences in a variety of posts. I'm pretty lazy so I just quoted the last relevant sentence and got on with what I had to say. :thumbsup:

[Vesihiisi]

In fact it wasn't just your post that inspired my reply, it was a variety of sentences in a variety of posts. I'm pretty lazy so I just quoted the last relevant sentence and got on with what I had to say. :thumbsup:I thought that might be the case, but with the ywktt clues still missing, I had time on my hands to start thinking about if there also was a comment about the quote that I was not quite getting.

Oh dear me don't apolgise for rambling!! Thats what forums are all about ;)I never took it seriously, but with nothing else to do, I had the urge to make a small pointer (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=38661&postcount=38) in response to my impression, right or wrong, that you may have a small tendency to inadvertantly insert personal remarks in many of your posts. And I actually do apologize for this personal remark. Please, do not be offended by it. :)

[genji2000]

OFCS.

[Vesihiisi]

Hmmm...
Optical Fiber Communication System - nope.
Olmsted Falls City Schools - nope.
Online Film Critics Society - could be?
Old Fart + Counter Strike - Must be this one! :D

Could also be "Oh, for cod's sake!", but I'm not so sure about involving innocent fish.

[Prolescum]

I had trouble with it too if that helps...

[crackedactor]

I have no idea.

[Prolescum]

Genji?

[genji2000]

What?

[Pnutmaster]

Could also be "Oh, for cod's sake!", but I'm not so sure about involving innocent fish.

Going for cod, cock, or Cylon.

[genji2000]

What - you seriously want to know what the C stands for?

Are you all too scared to talk about Battlestar in case one of you tells one of the others something they don't know?

It's 'Christ's'.

[Vesihiisi]

Should have guessed that one, it is obvious now.
This is clearly one of the detrimental effects of Skiffy being lax about their publication deadline policies. :D

[genji2000]

Should have guessed that one, it is obvious now.

As obvious as the face of the Final Cylon staring out at us from the space in the Last Supper picture.

[Vesihiisi]

Exactly. Context is king.

[Prolescum]

Brilliant!

[Andromeda]

Still looking at the head threads and projection threads. It's possible this has been pointed out because I haven't finished catching up.

I'm starting with the assumption that head characters are a combination of projection and something else. These characters seem to know things beyond their target's experience, so I don't think it's a leap to consider them an outside entity (or possibly subconscious entity). The specifics of what they are don't really matter to me right now.

I think it's probable that the regular characters have to interpret these "head characters" on their own terms. If six is on his mind, Gauis might "project" six's body and personality on this entity, and that entity might keep that identity as long as practical. If Head Six is no longer practical or effective because of Gauis' changing opinion, the entity might take on a different image, like, say... Gauis might see Gauis. My point is really that the Head characters depend on the climate and content of their target's mind, so are in a way tailored to that individual.

If this is true, how likely is it that more than one person will see any particular head character? It seems more likely to me that an individual will see a character tuned to his or her own experience.

Gauis isn't having the latest vision of the opera house--why would his personal "head character" be there? I think this shows that opera house red-dress six is Caprica Six.

Then again, if red-dress bleach-blonde head six is really a literary/visual device, then I guess you can ignore this post... ;)

[Vesihiisi]

If six is on his mind, Gauis might "project" six's body and personality on this entity, and that entity might keep that identity as long as practical. If Head Six is no longer practical or effective because of Gauis' changing opinion, the entity might take on a different image, like, say... Gauis might see Gauis.You may or may not want to also consider this piece of external information:I recall reading somewhere (can't remember the source), that RDM was not happy after the fact, that Baltar was made to see Head Baltar when he had his chat with Tory. If you remove Baltar's Head Baltar as an anomaly, you end up having essentially one head character per person.

Also, different people may have different opinions, on which apparitions constitute a head character. I follow a strict line that only includes Head Baltar and Head Six, with Virtual Leoben being something different. Other people may see a whole number of head characters as part of the same phenomenom.

[Andromeda]

Oh curious! That's interesting. The Gauis/head Gauis did seem very different from the other Head appearances. I haven't made my mind up on who all the head characters are (big surprise there!)

Though I think my assertion still fits, even without Gauis/Gauis. I don't think it is a mistake "Head Six" came to Gauis, as opposed to "Head One" or "Head Two" or "Head somerandompserson." "Head Six" came from his experience. Unless "Head Six" is real. But that's another topic altogether!

[Vesihiisi]

Well, I remember somebody somewhere having posted the idea, that each head character is the one best suited to influence the seer. It may have been in the "Appearances of..." (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=2183)thread, but even if not, that thread contains a good cross-section of many different ideas.

[Zlaticko]

Naw. That was Tory's (here-to-for-never-before-seen) head character, talking to Gaius.

:)

[Hofner1962]

Lots of rambling about hair color

According to commentary, the dye for Tricia's hair really damaged it and after the miniseries they started using a wig.

I would be willing to bet it was the same wig in both contexts but the lighting and saturation etc made it look different to you.

[Vesihiisi]

I would be willing to bet it was the same wig in both contexts but the lighting and saturation etc made it look different to you.I actually tried to see the Six in the opera house as having the hair of Caprica Six, but I couldn't convince myself of it.

I think it is most likely that they just filmed a whole bunch of those opera house scenes at the same time, and didn't pay too much attention to the hair. I originally thought that it might be a good way to identify the Six in question, but then came to my senses and realised it may be fairly unreliable.

[Hofner1962]

Ithen came to my senses and realised it may be fairly unreliable.
I am still waiting for this to happen myself

I also have to say that I love how these threads meander. We go from a thread about Boomer being the final cylon to whether 6 is wearing the same wig in and out of dreams. Then there is the whole "Is it just me thread" I think it took two posts to go south - new record?

[Pnutmaster]

The only thing cosmetically separating Head Six and Caprica Six is pale makeup, right?

Then there is the whole "Is it just me thread" I think it took two posts to go south - new record?

Maybe. Let's make an effort to break it, people!

[Vesihiisi]

The only thing cosmetically separating Head Six and Caprica Six is pale makeup, right?My general impression is that Caprica Six has almost bleached white hair, and Head Six has a slight touch of colour. Still, I have not recently checked every scene of Head Six, and it is always possible that her hair colour has drifted over time.

Maybe. Let's make an effort to break it, people!Whoever said that reputation has to be all good? But don't count me in on that, jokes and profanities are best left to native connoisseurs of the language.

[The Dirt]

Cap Six and Head Six hair is exactly the same. It was Tricia's natural hair - bleached - until it started falling out, so they went with a wig. I'm sure there aren't 2 wigs that have a 3% color difference. If they had different hair, you'd have noticed it by now.

As for the Opera House, it's Cap Six... since she dreams about it. It wouldn't make any other logical sense. I also have to predict that Baltar will soon admit that he's been having those dreams, or that he is aware of them somehow.

[Hofner1962]

Naw. That was Tory's (here-to-for-never-before-seen) head character, talking to Gaius.

:)

I believe it was however referenced by Roslyn when she sent Tori to find out who told Baltar about her sharing visions with Cap 6

Wait for it


Wait for it


Wait for it

.

.

.

[Batman316]

Originally Posted by the Hof
Then there is the whole "Is it just me thread" I think it took two posts to go south - new record?


I was a little upset at the abuse that threat took.... it was a good point damn it! Baltar is lit from above in an angelic glowish thing everytime he is on camera in S4...... Well that's what I saw.... then it all became about the penis :/

[Hofner1962]

I was a little upset at the abuse that threat took.... it was a good point damn it! Baltar is lit from above in an angelic glowish thing everytime he is on camera in S4...... Well that's what I saw.... then it all became about the penis :/

It was an interesting point. I have a pet obsession about the dolls that I don't think will ever be answered. And while I wasn't the first to send the thread south, I certainly had a hand in making it sink lower - so my apologies. Just know that if I have the opportunity to tank a thread again - I probably will if it makes for a good laugh.

[Batman316]

Just know that if I have the opportunity to tank a thread again - I probably will if it makes for a good laugh. sure, comedy is an excuse for everything take George W Bush for example. US only voted him in so that Dave Letterman had something to talk about

[Hofner1962]

take George W Bush
No more - the American people have been taking him up the backside for eight years. After him, Callis would seem smail.



US only voted him in so that Dave Letterman had something to talk about
If only the people who voted for him had as good of an excuse as that.

[genji2000]

...while I wasn't the first to send the thread south, I certainly had a hand in making it sink lower - so my apologies.

This thread's old and it's nice that it's still managing to squeeze out some discussion even if it's gone off target a little.

I know I'm the worst offender (well, apart from those who torpedo their own threads on post #3) and I'd never criticise anyone for taking my threads in a different direction, but it would be "a good thing" if we could make an effort to keep threads posted in the Battlestar forums on-topic.

Threads in the Rec Room or Joe's Bar are fair game I think, but remember, you can quote from one thread, select and copy the quote and then open another (more appropriate) thread to paste the quote and comment if you want to. Or start a new thread in the appropriate forum if you think it's justified.

It's just my opinion but I think it's easier to find your way around if threads stick to the topic (though obviously with a show like BSG, the discussion often spreads out into multiple branching and overlapping themes).

[cameraguyfresno]

well well finally got around to watching the first of the last episodes...we'll see the mystery unravel. It's been a long 7 months! Let the new ideas, flames, threads begin! I still believe Boomer is the final cylon.

Probably now more than ever...the memories of earth even more convinces me that Boomer and her like are a stream of consciousness that found a home in those bodies...among humans and among cylons..which could be one in tjhe same...perhaps different versions of each other.

and no I really don't believe Ellen to be the last one...holding out till I see Ellen hahaa