I think I figured it out - the Fifth

[cameraguyfresno]

It's Boomer.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.
3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.
4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.
5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2WWyAc1daI&feature=related

[Jason1975]

It's Boomer.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.
3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.
4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.
5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2WWyAc1daI&feature=related

Welcome to the forum Cameraguyfresno.

1: cannot deny that.
2: true
3: True D'Anna said that.
4: Boomer was a sleeper agent at that time I do not think that she wrote the note. Caprica Six told Baltar they were twelve models. Baltar could have easily have written the note.
5: I do not get why you put what the hybrid said in razor about the final cylon. Why would D'Anna insult Boomer if she was the final cylon? Wouldn't D'Anna go with Boomer and Cavil, if Boomer was one of the final cylon?

[cameraguyfresno]

#5. Hybrid,"fifth clawing to the light"
D'Anna "till she sees something shiny" Light = shiny. If you watch the scene she wasn't insulting her at all. I take that scene as she was testing her..putting her on the spot. Look at the youtube.

and there are few if any characters that fit these conditions - all the cally, baltar, roslin or Lee theories.

[cameraguyfresno]

thanks jason...I usually post in imdb but wanted to see what other BSG fans thought about this theory. I've gotten "dumbest" idea from a few to a few really good posts that support this idea.

my thing is that no other major theory for the fifth meets all the conditions set forth by the producers and the HUB episode nailed it for me...

[Jason1975]

I was just trying to clarify you theory a little bit. Your theory is good as the next one. Boomer is becoming very popular choose after Revelations. One that I do not share. The thing that troubles me is that Caprica Six said that she can feel that the final five cylons are close in "He that Believeth in Me". Also, Natalie says that the final five are in your fleet when talking to Adama and Roslin in "Guess What's Coming to Dinner".

[The Dirt]

4 -- RDM has stated that it was Baltar who left the note.

D'Anna's remark to Boomer is rather disrespectful, so I doubt that D'Anna would be mean to a FF. Also, wouldn't she want to make sure that Boomer didn't run away? Seems like she doesn't care either way.

The hybrid comment seems to suggest that it's Baltar. He is seeking redemption, and he did just suffer (in The Hub), however it seems like he's had worse. We'll see.

[cameraguyfresno]

yeah I think Baltar would probably need the most redemption..however..he is in the Last Supper picture...

hm...watching the scene with D'anna and Boomer...doesn't seem disrespectful at all to me..mabye I'm just being blind and seeing what i want to see..but still...

[genji2000]

4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.


RDM believes Baltar left the note, and his guess is as good as any of ours. Boomer had no idea about the Cylons and could only have left it during one of her subconscious, programming-kicking-in moments, and in those moments she would be unlikely to give Adama valuable information on the Cylons.

That said, welcome to the Boomer club. It's good that someone else has seen the light too. Check out Wouter's posts for a much more compelling argument for Boomer as the Final Cylon.

yeah I think Baltar would probably need the most redemption..however..he is in the Last Supper picture...

hm...watching the scene with D'anna and Boomer...doesn't seem disrespectful at all to me..mabye I'm just being blind and seeing what i want to see..but still...

It is very disrespectful. However that whole conversation is managed by D'Anna to establish whether Boomer has been activated as a F5. D'Anna has no love for Boomer and until the F5 consciousness is activated she's still just Boomer to D'Anna.

It's funny you think Baltar is in greater need of redemption than Boomer. Baltar has always acted true to his own nature. I think he craves forgiveness, but I doubt he would consider that he needs to be redeemed. Indeed, as an 'instrument of god' he would probably consider himself the redeemer. Boomer has consistently acted against her true nature and is in a much darker place because of it. No character craves redemption as deeply as Boomer.

[Teknopathetik]

along time ago i came up with the theory it was boomer while sitting around with my friends, but all those conditions fir Kendra Shaw as well. Razor was about redeptions and Kendra Shaw is the character who needed it most. As well, making it kendra shaw would boost Razor sales too. Id prefer boomer, but it could be kendra.

i know this also mostly fits ellen, but ellen doesnt seek redemption, she just is the way she is.

[LSOP]

I'm with you on the Boomer theory, cameraguyfresno.

[cameraguyfresno]

can you give me a link to Wouter's theory about Boomer? I'd be fascinated to read it!

[genji2000]

can you give me a link to Wouter's theory about Boomer? I'd be fascinated to read it!

Sure.

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=17239&postcount=71

I think this is the first time he made a link between Boomer and the Final Cylon in the forum, but there are many subsequent posts where the theory is expanded, and it's more to do with specifics than generic arguments like "she's not in the Last Supper photo" or "she's been around since Season One", both of which apply to many characters. Your best bet is to find all posts by Wouter after that date and work through them. There's no "I've guessed the Final Cylon" thread because we already have a couple of threads (one is a poll) on this forum for discussion of the Final Cylon, so most of the evidence is dispersed across those and the discussions around the latter episodes of 4.0.

The concept of one of the existing Cylons (as we thought) actually being a F5 was developed from earlier discussions about D'Anna being the Final Cylon, though the case wasn't very well put and I can't remember who espoused it.

[cameraguyfresno]

for some reason I can't access the link but will try to look through Wouter's past threads. However, I disagree that there are a number of characters that meet the "generic" conditions given for the Fifth cylon.

[huskerchad]

I think one big thing that supports this is that D'Anna says that only four are in the fleet. Remember she just woke up after being boxed, so she doesn't necessarily know everything that's been going on and what the state of things is.

For various reasons discussed in other threads, I don't think it's reasonable for her to lie about this.

I don't think it's any of the fleet members who came over to the cylon ship. If it were, D'Anna would just welcome them home.

So, if D'Anna's statement about four in the fleet is correct, then she must have seen something that proved to here that the fifth is somewhere else. Boomer's just about the only one who fits that.

[genji2000]

for some reason I can't access the link but will try to look through Wouter's past threads. However, I disagree that there are a number of characters that meet the "generic" conditions given for the Fifth cylon.

Link works fine for me.

...it's more to do with specifics than generic arguments like "she's not in the Last Supper photo" or "she's been around since Season One", both of which apply to many characters.

Many characters satisfy these two generic conditions: Gaeta, Dualla, Zarek, Racetrack, the tattooed pilot, Cally, Ellen Tigh, etc., etc. You could also include the likes of Zak Adama, and at a stretch Carolanne Adama (Bill asks after her in the Miniseries).

So, if D'Anna's statement about four in the fleet is correct, then she must have seen something that proved to here that the fifth is somewhere else. Boomer's just about the only one who fits that.

There's also Helo, Roslin and Baltar.

[Pnutmaster]

TheVarrior and I were discussing the Boomer theory today and we encountered a problem with it.

If Boomer is the Fifth Cylon, how do we reconcile the fact that her memories have been downloaded by the Eights? If Athena has all of Boomer's memories up until her assassination, what makes Boomer special?

[genji2000]

TheVarrior and I were discussing the Boomer theory today and we encountered a problem with it.

If Boomer is the Fifth Cylon, how do we reconcile the fact that her memories have been downloaded by the Eights? If Athena has all of Boomer's memories up until her assassination, what makes Boomer special?

Read through Wouter's posts about downloading and resurrection, memories and consciousness, for the answers to that.

Briefly, who said her memories have been downloaded by the Eights? Athena accessed Boomer's memories to glean the information she would need to execute her mission in relation to Helo. She doesn't have all of Boomer's memories. She has no memory of shooting Adama, for example. Athena accessed Boomer's memories at some point prior to 33.

[Pnutmaster]

Ah, I must catch up on my readings of the local prophet then :p

I forgot that Athena only had Boomer's memories up until the attack on the colonies, and I wonder how they were accessed in the first place...

I admit that the Boomer theory is convincing and fits the Hybrid's words very nicely, but I won't fully stomach it until it's fact, hehe.

[genji2000]

Ah, I must catch up on my readings of the local prophet then :p

Oh, I thought that was you.

"I present to you, humble readers of the BSG Wiki Forum, my cumulative theory regarding the many subplots and histories that adorn the reimagined-Battlestar Star Galactica series."
:devil:

I forgot that Athena only had Boomer's memories up until the attack on the colonies, and I wonder how they were accessed in the first place...

Not by default. A very clever Cylon who knows what she's doing can access another copy's memories, potentially using a backdoor.

I admit that the Boomer theory is convincing and fits the Hybrid's words very nicely, but I won't fully stomach it until it's fact, hehe.

Well, no, of course. Until they finally reveal the Fifth it will remain open to conjecture.

[Jason1975]

As, I am think about things. If I am wrong about who I think the cylon is, then my second choose for the last cylon is Boomer.

[cameraguyfresno]

Jason. what is your first choice for the fifth?

For the life of me I can't find more than one of Wouter's posts or threads. Is it me or is this forum one of the hardest to navigate?

[genji2000]

For the life of me I can't find more than one of Wouter's posts or threads. Is it me or is this forum one of the hardest to navigate?

Are you kidding me?

You just find one of his posts, click his name and select Find all posts by Wouter.

Here, I've done it for you:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/search.php?searchid=84725&pp=25&page=2

10 June forward is what you're looking for.

[Starstruck]

Read through Wouter's posts about downloading and resurrection, memories and consciousness, for the answers to that.

Briefly, who said her memories have been downloaded by the Eights? Athena accessed Boomer's memories to glean the information she would need to execute her mission in relation to Helo. She doesn't have all of Boomer's memories. She has no memory of shooting Adama, for example. Athena accessed Boomer's memories at some point prior to 33.

That's always been a mystery, actually. Boomer died AFTER Athena had already begun seducing Helo, so when did she have a chance to access her memories? This has never been explained.

[genji2000]

That's always been a mystery, actually. Boomer died AFTER Athena had already begun seducing Helo, so when did she have a chance to access her memories? This has never been explained.

Boomer would have touched based periodically and automatically without it being known to her (as per the 'blackouts' in Water and Kobol's Last Gleaming).

It's a bit of a hole this, unless someone can explain it to me. I don't think Boomer was anywhere near a Resurrection Ship when Cally shot her, so how did the Boomer consciousness including the memory of her death download?

[Xenon242]

I don't think Boomer was anywhere near a Resurrection Ship when Cally shot her, so how did the Boomer consciousness including the memory of her death download?

This is one of those occasions where we're going to have to call creative licence and live with it, unfortunately. Otherwise, it would remove a fair chunk of Boomer's post-shooting death raison d'être, which would then leave the writers with quite a few holes to fill with something else.

[Jason1975]

Boomer would have touched based periodically and automatically without it being known to her (as per the 'blackouts' in Water and Kobol's Last Gleaming).

It's a bit of a hole this, unless someone can explain it to me. I don't think Boomer was anywhere near a Resurrection Ship when Cally shot her, so how did the Boomer consciousness including the memory of her death download?

When she was shot she was close enough to Caprica or to the Cylon Homeworld to be able to download there.

[Jason1975]

Jason. what is your first choice for the fifth?
Cameraguyfresno,
For the life of me I can't find more than one of Wouter's posts or threads. Is it me or is this forum one of the hardest to navigate?

My first choose is Dualla which is Zoe Greystone resurrected and the seventh humanoid model. D'Anna saw Zoe in her vision, thats why D'Anna thinks that the fifth cylon is not in the fleet.

If you are part of the Season 4 spoilers group:
http://battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=18469#post18469

It is a long read.

If you are not part of the Season 4 spoilers group and want to, this link will show you how.
http://battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=67&page=2

[smelly_feet]

I don't think that we have yet seen the act which needs redemption and we have not seen the suffering. I think its Starbuck. She is going to do something really bad. That is her destiny. She will suffer and will need to seek redemption. I also think that the final cylon is definitely female. In the sketches it looks like two females to me. Although Baltar also has long hair.

[The Dirt]

Yeah, I hope those stand-ins in the Final Five promo pic from The Eye of Jupiter actually mean something.

[genji2000]

When she was shot she was close enough to Caprica or to the Cylon Homeworld to be able to download there.

Oh well done. I don't think either is true, but still, it's a first step.

I don't think that we have yet seen the act which needs redemption and we have not seen the suffering. I think its Starbuck. She is going to do something really bad. That is her destiny. She will suffer and will need to seek redemption. I also think that the final cylon is definitely female. In the sketches it looks like two females to me. Although Baltar also has long hair.

With Boomer we have seen the acts for which she craves redemption, and she's in a deep dark hole now. A possibility for the howl of terrible suffering is that Cavil discovers her identity and threatens her life or tortures her in some kind of stand off with D'Anna.

For Kara, I think you could argue that she's in a deep dark hole, has been since childhood. What put her there are the sins of her mother, but nonetheless Kara would seek redemption for that. The howl of terrible suffering could be her discovery of her old body on Earth.

[cameraguyfresno]

My second choice is Diana Seelix. Based on simplistic view that Diana is twin to Apollo in Greek mythology and Leobin said Adama is a cylon. Diana could be a long lost twin which could create interesting storyline in Caprica series with the Adamas. Plus she meets the other requirements: not in picture and not in fleet.

[genji2000]

My second choice is Diana Seelix. Based on simplistic view that Diana is twin to Apollo in Greek mythology and Leobin said Adama is a cylon. Diana could be a long lost twin which could create interesting storyline in Caprica series with the Adamas. Plus she meets the other requirements: not in picture and not in fleet.

Was Seelix on the Basestar? Did D'Anna know she was on the Basestar?

[cameraguyfresno]

actually I don't remember any reference that D'Anna knew or saw Seelix was on the Baseship..we only know and see Seelix whining...that is why Boomer is still the most sound guess so far.

[cameraguyfresno]

genji2000, can't really find a great post from wouter about Boomer's qualifications for being the fifth. He just says "she be a really good candidate". He or she is very knowledgeable about other factors - I look at all his recent posts and can't find him giving any compelling debate for her.

However..I found an excellent article by a member in here who advocated that Lee Adama was the fifth. It was a great and very compelling article. However that article was written before the D'Anna exclamation that four were in the fleet.

Just curious..why do YOU think Boomer is Fifth?

[genji2000]

genji2000, can't really find a great post from wouter about Boomer's qualifications for being the fifth. He just says "she be a really good candidate". He or she is very knowledgeable about other factors - I look at all his recent posts and can't find him giving any compelling debate for her.

However..I found an excellent article by a member in here who advocated that Lee Adama was the fifth. It was a great and very compelling article. However that article was written before the D'Anna exclamation that four were in the fleet.

Just curious..why do YOU think Boomer is Fifth?

Well since you had difficulty even finding Wouter's posts yesterday, I'd have to assume you haven't read the conversations around them to be able say his only argument is "she'd be a really good candidate". Like I said, there is no single "My Guess At the Final Cylon" post. The concept developed over a number of conversations. Please try and do some research on it. I read your imdb posts, which led me to believe you'd just jumped at Boomer rather than thinking it through. For example, your reasoning for Boomer being an Eight and also the Final Cylon had no substance, but rested on an analogy of Jesus being a Jew and also a Christian. This is a fundamental barrier to the possibility of Boomer being the Final Cylon and it needs to be rationally overcome. Wouter's reasoning went into some detail, describing how two different models could conceivably be (as an extreme but illustrative example) only 1% different - that Sevens and Eights may appear and behave the same (which would allow a Seven to download into an Eight's body), but there would be some fundamental difference that marked them as separate. Did you read that explanation?

The potential for what I considered to be one copy of one Cylon model also simultaneously being a completely different Cylon model (i.e. an Eight and one of the Final Five) was something I didn't agree with at all. Wouter's point was that Boomer is not an Eight. She never was. Where the human fleet thought they had a girl from Aerelon as Lieutenant, who turned out to be a Cylon sleeper agent, the Cylons thought they had an Eight model working as a sleeper agent in the fleet, but she turns out to be one of the Final Five (potentially a Seven model, but this is irrelevant), so ultimately she is a sleeper in the Cylon fleet.

The next hurdle was, of course, how could the Cylons not know that she wasn't an Eight? That comes back to the possible 1% difference, that she is enough like an Eight a) for the Cylons not to be aware that she is not and b) to enable her consciousness to download into an Eight's body.

They're the two key issues that convinced me that she could potentially be the Final Cylon. I always refer to Wouter because he made the suggestion first, some weeks ago, and because his arguments for that potential beat my own against it, and I believe in credit where credit's due, but in truth, privately (accepting the arguments Wouter made) I consider that I also worked a lot of it out for myself. In fact, I don't think anyone can claim to have an opinion on the identity of the Final Fifth if they haven't got there by themselves (however much other people's arguments have swayed them).

So, once Wouter explained how it was possible that Boomer is not an Eight, and how it was possible that she could operate undetected as a Final Five Cylon in Cylon society, I looked at all the hints and clues for her the same as anyone does for any character.

A big clue was obviously her voting against her model. Whilst not proving that she is the Final Cylon, this does bolster the argument that she is not an Eight.

An obvious well of indication are the utterances of various Hybrids, the most obvious being:

The five lights of the apocalypse rising, struggling towards the light, the sins revealed only to those who enter the temple, only to the chosen one.
And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.

D'Anna's reaction to Boomer on the Hub, and her assertion that only four of the Final Five were in the colonial fleet were both fairly obvious roadsigns.

Boomer's continued presence at the heart of the Cylon fleet (not the rebels) is a strong one for me. All of the Watchtower Four were operational at the highest levels of the colonial fleet, whilst never being at the very top. It's possible imo that Boomer's F5 'mission' is to stay at that level, next to Cavil who, consensus rule notwithstanding, delivers a lot of the guidance and persuasion in the fleet.

Obviously, her post-resurrection conversion of the Cylons indicated a pre-destined role, in which she was ably joined by Caprica Six, whose role I think is as important as the Final Five's, the Herald's, and that of the Chosen One.

Then there is speculation.

Why would the Final Five only be operative in the colonial fleet? Surely, with the apocalypse looming, they also need to have a presence in Cylon society. So who in Cylon society would fit the role? Cavils are too much slaves to their programming for the Final Cylon to operate as one of them. Like Dualla, Seelix, the tattooed pilot etc., I wouldn't think there'd be much of a pay off in having Doral or Simon as the Final Cylon because they're too minor. Certainly not D'Anna because she was boxed most of the time, and it was she who saw the Final Five. Boomer is the only option.

As a self-iterating cycle, wouldn't it be amazing to have us go back and watch the Miniseries and Season One again with our new found knowledge that Boomer is the Final Cylon, after we've already been sent back to the Miniseries once when we discovered that she was a Cylon? "Yeah, it's multi-layered. It was made that way."

Plus the circumstantial evidence such as "Boomer's coming back in a big bad way", and the balance of the Cylon models (five females and seven males).

So, compare those reasons with the ones you gave in the original post.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.

Whoop-de-doo. Both those reasons apply to almost half of the characters.

3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.

Fair enough. That convinced me too.

4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.

That's just wrong, because (although they won't explain it) RDM has stated that in his opinon Baltar left the note.

5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

I can't deduce a reason in that. What point are you making?

So, from the original post here and your posts on imdb, I cannot fathom what reason you have for suspecting Boomer in the first place. You haven't mentioned anything that would lead me to say "oh yeah, Boomer". What was the trigger for you and what reasoning did you use to flesh out the theory? Is it at all significant that your first "Boomer is the Final Cylon" post on imdb came two days after Wouter's initial theory on our forum? Just wondering.

[cameraguyfresno]

Actually once I deduced it was Boomer I was excited to share and hear input from other BSG fans. The IMDB forum still has many people speculating on characters that don't meet the simplistic conditions set forth. I tried to get into Sci Fi but for some reason can't post. Then I came in here where I would have to say there are many very knowlegeable fans and fans who can make a statement and defend their points.

My deduction is to eliminate all the major characters and leave the only ones that would make any sense and create some sort of cinematic pay off to the audience. All in all it's just logical to believe it is Boomer.

Going backwards...once D'Anna said the final cylon is not in the fleet you look at who is NOT in the fleet. That is where Boomer first came into mind. Then came the how can it be Boomer if she is in the Last Supper? Well she is hugging Helo so she must be Athena and not Boomer as a solution.

Also to say that any other character that is NOT in the last supper photo can be the fifth cylon is fine. But of that field..which one is not in the fleet. You elilminate Zarek, Caprica 6 and Romo then. Again it goes back to Boomer.

Now who else is still NOT in the Last Supper? Dead characters or Zack as some people say? Ellen or Adm. Cain some people say. But they don't meet the condition of being in the series from the beginning. Plus why would it be dramatic if Ellen or Cain be the fifth? Boomer makes the MOST dramatic character left that meets all the conditions. You make it Ellen and your audience will say..oh. You make it Boomer and they'll say..."yeah...I see..makes sense." as they connect the dots.

So I tried to build my case further and wondered about the interaction of D'Anna and Boomer if she indeed knows Boomer is the final cylon. So I looked up the only scene i remember: the resurrection of D'Anna. Now I don't think you understrand this clearly....D'Anna parenthetically is saying..."until Boomer sees the light Cavel then she'll stop being your pet." Compare that to what the hybrid say and you have VOILA! Read the dialogue or watch the youtube. Do you get it now? I think it is the BIGGEST hint the writers have given us. Why would D'Anna say such a strange phrase as "till she sees something shiny"? Except that it is clever rephrasing of "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light,"

My poor analogy of Jesus and a Jew was to counter what some people saying Boomer can't be the final cylon since she's already an 8. I was merely trying to say she can and also asking..why not? What reference do you have to say that?

Lastly how dramatic will it be to have Boomer have that internal strife trying to understand what or who she is since she's hated in the fleet and also vilified among her 8's.

I'm just totally excited to think..feel that we've deciphered this little mystery I just wanted to share...and see what other people felt.

I believe the moderator of this forum wrote a beautiful manifesto about the fifth cylon...now his reasoning is superb and would make a much much more dramatic tension for the show if LEE was the final cylon.

But looking at the conditions that Boomer meets...and that it would make good television and the Hub episode..there is no one more logically suitable to be the fifth cylon.

I hear and understand you and Wouter's reasoning and don't buy very easily. I like the "stream of conciousness" theory over Boomer but I think it is too high brow for television. I love the Lee article but he has two strikes against him: in Last Supper and being in fleet. I'm thinking what would the television writers conjure up that a tv audience would accept and take it. They've provided enough clues.. I think we have the only logical candidate in Boomer. Of course they will give us some misdirection but it's Boomer.

[genji2000]

Actually once I deduced it was Boomer I was excited to share and hear input from other BSG fans. The IMDB forum still has many people speculating on characters that don't meet the simplistic conditions set forth. I tried to get into Sci Fi but for some reason can't post. Then I came in here where I would have to say there are many very knowlegeable fans and fans who can make a statement and defend their points.

I had the devil's own job getting onto scifi.com. I tried three different email addresses, successfully registered, but none would let me login. In the end someone who already had an account invited me and that worked. Let me know if you want an invitation.

My deduction is to eliminate all the major characters and leave the only ones that would make any sense and create some sort of cinematic pay off to the audience. All in all it's just logical to believe it is Boomer.

Going backwards...once D'Anna said the final cylon is not in the fleet you look at who is NOT in the fleet. That is where Boomer first came into mind. Then came the how can it be Boomer if she is in the Last Supper? Well she is hugging Helo so she must be Athena and not Boomer as a solution.

Also to say that any other character that is NOT in the last supper photo can be a cylon is fine. But of that field..which one is not in the fleet. You elilminate Zarek, Caprica 6 and Romo then. Again it goes back to Boomer.

Now who else is still NOT in the Last Supper? Dead characters or Zack as some people say? Ellen or Adm. Cain some people say. But they don't meet the condition of being in the series from the beginning. Plus why would it be dramatic if Ellen or Cain be the fifth? Boomer makes the MOST dramatic character left that meets all the conditions.

So I tried to build my case further and wondered about the interaction of D'Anna and Boomer if she indeed knows Boomer is the final cylon. So I looked up the only scene i remember: the resurrection of D'Anna. Now I don't think you understrand this clearly....D'Anna parenthetically is saying..."until Boomer sees the light Cavel then she'll stop being your pet." Compare that to what the hybrid say and you have VOILA! Read the dialogue or watch the youtube. Do you get it now? I think it is the BIGGEST hint the writers have given us. Why would D'Anna say such a strange phrase as "till she sees something shiny"? Except that it is clever rephrasing of "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light,"

Well that's amazing. It's quite joyous to be honest.

Go back to the music that's playing, that Indian, Eastern music, and, as you and others have pointed out, it's exotic and dark, and it begins when D'Anna looks round at Boomer and fades away when she foucuses her attention once more on Cavil. I'd even make a case for the subtle melodies being a variation on Heeding the Call and other associated music from Crossroads. Big clue. Big piece of supporting evidence I'd say. I wouldn't say it's a potential trigger, but if you're very susceptible to the soundtrack then you might prick up your ears.

As for the dialogue. Well, firstly you were more accurate in your original post than you are here.

Cavil: Your supporters are working with humans against all the rest of us. All in your name.
D'Anna (turning to face Boomer, cue music): Boomer's an Eight. Shouldn't she be on the other side?
Cavil: Boomer's my pet Eight. She's seen the light of reason. An Eight can make a passionate ally.
D'Anna: Until she sees something shiny.

So you see, D'Anna is not implying that Boomer will hang around Cavil until she sees the light and realises her true nature (or as you say "until Boomer sees the light Cavel then she'll stop being your pet"). She is saying that Eights in general ("an Eight" as an example) stick to their allies until they get sidetracked (e.g. Athena and Helo). I think the "shiny" comment is a reference to Buffy (I've never watched Buffy but I've heard fans say "ooh, shiny", and maybe it has some significance in that show). So that comment implies that they're not reliable. The other models all consider Eights inferior, weak, silly even.

That said, if Boomer turns out to be the Final Cylon then at this point we are waiting for her to see the light, acknowledge her true nature, so I wouldn't say you're wrong, just that this statement of D'Anna's is fairly minimal, supporting evidence at best, and I'm surprised that, being a staunch advocate of Seelix as the Final Cylon, this is what sold you on Boomer.

But if it did then well spotted.

My poor analogy of Jesus and a Jew was to counter what some people saying Boomer can't be the final cylon since she's already an 8. I was merely trying to say she can and also asking..why not? What reference do you have to say that?

But they're right. Boomer can't be the final Cylon if she's an Eight. That's the fundamental barrier to it being remotely possible. That's why I have a problem with your deduction: you appear still to believe that she is an Eight.

Lastly how dramatic will it be to have Boomer have that internal strife trying to understand what or who she is since she's hated in the fleet and also vilified among her 8's.

Yes, I completely agree. Everything that she's been through, the dark places she is confined to, will all be just steps, experiences necessary to bring her to her potential.

I'm just totally excited to think..feel that we've deciphered this little mystery I just wanted to share...and see what other people felt.

That was my initial problem. You joined the forum yesterday and immediately posted a new thread without finding your way around and seeing that a) we already had a Final Cylon thread, to which your comments should have been added, and b) we've already discussed Boomer at length, so it wasn't a new concept.

I believe the moderator of this forum wrote a beautiful manifesto about the fifth cylon...now his reasoning is superb and would make a much much more dramatic tension for the show if LEE was the final cylon.

But looking at the conditions that Boomer meets...and that it would make good television and the Hub episode..there is no one more logically suitable to be the fifth cylon.

I hear and understand you and Wouter's reasoning and don't buy very easily. I like the "stream of conciousness" theory over Boomer

I'm not familiar with that. What do you mean?

but I think it is too high brow for television. I love the Lee article but he has two strikes against him: in Last Supper and being in fleet.

Not to mention he was a baby once and there are no Cylon babies.

I'm thinking what would the television writers conjure up that a tv audience would accept and take it. They've provided enough clues.. I think we have the only logical candidate in Boomer. Of course they will give us some misdirection but it's Boomer.

Might be Cavil. :)

[genji2000]

All that took quite a bit of effort and something else has just occurred to me.

Boomer is just one of a number of plausible options. To me (and other people) she's the most logical choice, but to other people she's not. In truth, I could care more about who the Final Cylon is. I think it's one of the least important of the most important aspects of the story at this point. I do think it's important to discuss the identity of the Final Cylon for two reasons: firstly to deflect attention away from more important aspects (such as the purpose of the Final Five, the roles that various characters are playing in the cycle of time, what happens next on Earth and potentially back on Kobol, etc.) because if those aspects received the same amount of attention as the identity of the Final Cylon then I doubt the show would hold many more surprises for us; and secondly to maintain attention to this forum and keep people visiting. However, there's a fine line between sparking off a lively debate with a bit of controversy to keep things moving along, and being bloody-minded and offensive. There's also a limit to how long you can maintain interest in the same subject matter, and right now I feel Boomered out. This discussion has been about how we disagree on the validity of the reasons for us both coming to the same conclusion. That's ludicrous and I hope no one bothers reading this thread.

EDIT: I take this back. After all effort expended on the fruitless task of trawling through previous discussions that have taken place over the last number of weeks in order to explain the valid (i.e. not "she wasn't in the Last Supper picture you know") evidence to someone who can't be arsed trawling through them himself and totally misinterprets his own evidence, I will be really pissed off if Boomer's not the Final Cylon.

[Proxenus]

It's Boomer.

1. According to producers the fifth has been in the series from the beginning. She has.
2. According to RDM the Fifth is not in the Last Supper photo. Athena is in there not Boomer.
3. D'Anna says the four are in the fleet not the fifth. She just saw Boomer after being resurrected.
4. Boomer being with the fleet in the beginning answers who left Adama the note about the cylons. Boomer had black outs when she was cylon.
5. The thing that clinched it was the HUB episode.

Hybrid says. "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

3:48 where D'Anna remarks about Boomer. D'Anna looks at Boomer and responds to Cavel's remark of Boomer.."an 8 will make a passionate ally"

D'Anna answers, "till she sees something shiny" Check this out and you tell me Boomer isn't the best candidate for the fifth cylon? She has a coy smile as she looks at Boomer. The tense over the shoulder shot and music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2WWyAc1daI&feature=related

I'm not sure I 100% agree, but it is possible. She fits many of the clues (at least the clues we know of). She's been there since the beginning, she's not with the fleet when D'Anna talks to Colonel Tigh, she does need redemption, and she's in "shadow" in that she's not with the humans but following Cavil around.

Here's my problem with it. The Final Five are supposed to be "fundamentally different than the Seven. Boomer is not different than the Seven.

Remember, when she downloaded, she downloaded into a new Number 8 model body. Her new Number 8 body would be no different than any other Number 8 body.

Colonel Tigh, Chief Tyrol, Ensign Anders, and Tory Foster have never died (as far as we know) and still maintain their bodies which could be different.

Now, they could always come up with an explanation (i.e., when ever Boomer dies, she actually gets a "special body" that the Seven aren't aware of as they are programed not to think about it), but most of these explanations would be rather cheesy.

Another problem with this theory is that when the Boomer version was originally created, the Cylon group would have noticed her being different.

Of course, this would devolve into a discussion about how many actual humanoid Cylons are there? 20 of each? 30? If the basal personality construct downloaded into each one before deployment ("Hey, I need 10 more number Sixes on the double").

[Pnutmaster]

Boomer is just one of a number of plausible options. To me (and other people) she's the most logical choice, but to other people she's not. In truth, I could care more about who the Final Cylon is. I think it's one of the least important of the most important aspects of the story at this point. I do think it's important to discuss the identity of the Final Cylon for two reasons: firstly to deflect attention away from more important aspects (such as the purpose of the Final Five, the roles that various characters are playing in the cycle of time, what happens next on Earth and potentially back on Kobol, etc.) because if those aspects received the same amount of attention as the identity of the Final Cylon then I doubt the show would hold many more surprises for us; and secondly to maintain attention to this forum and keep people visiting. However, there's a fine line between sparking off a lively debate with a bit of controversy to keep things moving along, and being bloody-minded and offensive. There's also a limit to how long you can maintain interest in the same subject matter, and right now I feel Boomered out. This discussion has been about how we disagree on the validity of the reasons for us both coming to the same conclusion. That's ludicrous and I hope no one bothers reading this thread.

Agree wholeheartedly.

...but before the subject is closed, :lol:

While the "until she sees something shiny" line is interesting, how would D'Anna even know what the first Hybrid said? That's been troubling me. After reading your post, genji, it's starting to seem more likely that the line was meant as an insult to, as D'Anna saw her, a simple minded pet.

[genji2000]

Here's my problem with it. The Final Five are supposed to be "fundamentally different than the Seven. Boomer is not different than the Seven.

"Fundamentally different" does not mean "wholly different" and it certainly doesn't mean "physically different". The fundamental difference is likely to be in the model's consciousness.

Another problem with this theory is that when the Boomer version was originally created, the Cylon group would have noticed her being different.

The development of the humanoid Cylons is far too mysterious to say this or that would or wouldn't have happened. All manner of explanations could cover this. A number of people on this forum reckon the Final Five influenced or even instigated the development of the humanoid Cylons, in which case they could easily have found a way to make an Eight body capable of hosting a Seven consciousness.

Of course, this would devolve into a discussion about how many actual humanoid Cylons are there? 20 of each? 30? If the basal personality construct downloaded into each one before deployment ("Hey, I need 10 more number Sixes on the double").

There are millions of copies of each model in existence according to Cavil.

Agree wholeheartedly.

...but before the subject is closed, :lol:

While the "until she sees something shiny" line is interesting, how would D'Anna even know what the first Hybrid said? That's been troubling me. After reading your post, genji, it's starting to seem more likely that the line was meant as an insult to, as D'Anna saw her, a simple minded pet.

You know what, Pnutty, in the midst (mist even) of all that tedium I totally overlooked this. The quote in the original post is completely incorrect. D'Anna would not have known of the Razor Hybrid's utterances and thus would never have heard:

"And the fifth still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

However, D'Anna was present with Baltar when the Hybrid on her own Basestar said this in The Eye of Jupiter:

"The five lights of the apocalypse rising, struggling towards the light, the sins revealed only to those who enter the temple, only to the chosen one."

The OP didn't refer to this though and therefore I'm even less convinced of his reasons for spotting Boomer as the Final Cylon.

[cameraguyfresno]

I love this discussion!

how about this? the final five are fundamentally different. and we don't know or fully understand all the differences so we cannot logically put any limits on what they can or cannot do hence we can't say: she can't be the fifth because she's a cylon..because...ta day...the final five are fundamentally different.

I think the D'Anna dialogue was a contrived hint. You are correct to say how did D'Anna know what the hybrid? The writers do that...like we all knew Lee was going to be president..they way they concocted how he became president was lame.

Now if the fifth cylon can't be a cylon? Why can the final four cylon be cylons if they are human? They age like humans and mate like humans. They've passed every "test" of being human assuming Anders and Tyrol would have taken some sort of physical for sport or military enlistment. Just the same as Boomer would have "passed" sort of test being a cylon. Remember we don't know all the differences of the final four so we can't lay limits upon them. Reasonable?

Cavil can't be the fifth because he wasn't there from the beginning as far as I remember.


Taken as a whole...Boomer is the best candidate.

an aside:

"That was my initial problem. You joined the forum yesterday and immediately posted a new thread without finding your way around and seeing that a) we already had a Final Cylon thread, to which your comments should have been added, and b) we've already discussed Boomer at length, so it wasn't a new concept."

why is this a "problem"? I read a few of the threads on this forum before I posted but no one put Boomer and did a clear listing like i did i.e listing #1-#4 reason with break downs. yeah it' s not a new concept but..like i said...the generic standards I listed are met. And I explained my deductions. I'm not here to steal anyone's thunder...we win nothing..hahaha..I'm just excited to feel to deciphered something logically. This implication is seen a few times where you mentioned you cannot see why I believe Boomer is the fifth cylone when I simplistic listed #1 reason, #2 reason, #3 reason and so on. Your wrote: " I'm even less convinced of his reasons for spotting Boomer as the Final Cylon." See #1-4. Is there a contest i didn't know about? hahahaha Actually you have not really clearly or succinctly stated why you think Boomer is the fifth. If we can stretch just a tad and believe that the fifth can be a cylon then the case is pretty rock solid. Personally I think it's harder to make a case that Boomer is not a cylon than to say the final cylon is fundarmentally different and can be a cylon and the fifth cylon.

[cameraguyfresno]

actually Genji...since you don't get it.while I listed my reason so simply...i wonder if you really understand how Boomer can be the fifth too...

this is just for fun..not a personal attack. :)

[genji2000]

I love this discussion!

how about this? the final five are fundamentally different. and we don't know or fully understand all the differences so we cannot logically put any limits on what they can or cannot do hence we can't say: she can't be the fifth because she's a cylon..because...ta day...the final five are fundamentally different.

Ta dah! This is what Proxenus said an hour before you, here:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=18843&postcount=39

That's much the same as Wouter putting forward Boomer as the Final Cylon, and then you picking it up and scuttling back to imdb with it (ooh shiny) two days later, without any comprehension of the plausible arguments for the case, which I outlined in my horribly long post earlier today.

I think the D'Anna dialogue was a contrived hint. You are correct to say how did D'Anna know what the hybrid? The writers do that...like we all knew Lee was going to be president..they way they concocted how he became president was lame.

lol. Your English isn't bad. What's your first language?

Do you understand the meaning of verisimilitude? D'Anna couldn't refer to the clawing toward the light utterance because her character had no knowledge of it. The single point you made to attempt to convince me that you'd thought of this idea yourself was false. You got it completely wrong. So it goes into the bin along with your other three 'reasons'.

Now if the fifth cylon can't be a cylon?

What are you asking? What does that mean?

Why can the final four cylon be cylons if they are human?

They can't and they're not. They're Cylons. They "have been from the start".

They age like humans and mate like humans. They've passed every "test" of being human assuming Anders and Tyrol would have taken some sort of physical for sport or military enlistment. Just the same as Boomer would have "passed" sort of test being a cylon. Remember we don't know all the differences of the final four so we can't lay limits upon them. Reasonable?

When were these tests conducted? What are you talking about?

Cavil can't be the fifth because he wasn't there from the beginning as far as I remember.


Taken as a whole...Boomer is the best candidate.

You keep saying this, preceded by an avalanche of drivel and misunderstandings.


an aside:

"That was my initial problem. You joined the forum yesterday and immediately posted a new thread without finding your way around and seeing that a) we already had a Final Cylon thread, to which your comments should have been added, and b) we've already discussed Boomer at length, so it wasn't a new concept."

why is this a "problem"? I read a few of the threads on this forum before I posted but no one put Boomer and did a clear listing like i did i.e listing #1-#4 reason with break downs.

We generally don't feel the need to discuss things at that level on this forum. Nor do we post unnecessary threads about issues that are already discussed elsewhere in order to call attention to ourselves.

Of the five points in your original post only one of them (the third) is valid. The others are either wrong or banal.

yeah it' s not a new concept but..like i said...the generic standards I listed are met.

As they are by half of the characters in the show. Those two points are pre-requisites and don't need to be mentioned.

And I explained my deductions.

When? Where? You haven't given one single plausible or logical piece of evidence.

I'm not here to steal anyone's thunder...we win nothing..hahaha..I'm just excited to feel to deciphered something logically.

You didn't. You deciphered it by the copy and paste method.

This implication is seen a few times where you mentioned you cannot see why I believe Boomer is the fifth cylone when I simplistic listed #1 reason, #2 reason, #3 reason and so on.

Only one of which was valid.

Your wrote: " I'm even less convinced of his reasons for spotting Boomer as the Final Cylon." See #1-4. Is there a contest i didn't know about? hahahaha Actually you have not really clearly or succinctly stated why you think Boomer is the fifth.

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=18804&postcount=35
If you need it in baby talk then you're on the wrong forum.

If we can stretch just a tad and believe that the fifth can be a cylon then the case is pretty rock solid. Personally I think it's harder to make a case that Boomer is not a cylon than to say the final cylon is fundarmentally different and can be a cylon and the fifth cylon.

This is not a personal attack you understand. It's just an observation.

[cameraguyfresno]

wow you win..you win whatever geek award you're looking for. I'm just here to discuss something and if you need to think I copied and pasted something to make yourself feel better...so be it. how or why I copy and paste something from you or wouter if I don't believe fundamentally what you are saying? you're just confusing yourself! This is an awesome show and it's exciting to come to the realization that the writers put some master plan together finally.


English is my third language thank you very much. and honestly pointing simple things out to you is like explaining to a blind man what the sunset is like. if you can't understand the points I set forth then sorry...sometimes I get bored speaking as if I'm speaking to a 4 year old.

this is just an observation...have fun and get a chill pill buddy.

[cameraguyfresno]

or is this a joke because genji is wrong in every conceivable way nearly on every point. it seems every single point he makes is totally wrong hahaha...too many to list.

well..one for example: "We generally don't feel the need to discuss things at that level on this forum." Listing reasons when I make a statement is too simplistic and logical? I should make half statements through several threads and have you take all my threads as a whole to understand what I'm saying?

Well in my world..you make a premise and you try to prove it.

We set conditions for the fifth then deduce which one member fits all the conditions and is the best one. Sorry I'm not abreast of another better system. If that is too hard for you to comprehend..then sorry i can't talk to you because your set of logic is different from me and the rest of the world.

this obviously must be a joke...okay...I give.

[Xenon242]

Settle down, lads ...

[cameraguyfresno]

agreed...hey I'm just here to discuss some ideas on my down time :)

[Xenon242]

Yup! At the end of the day, it's just a TV programme someone else (not us) is writing, so we can debate ourselves blue in the face, we're probably going to all be wrong about something (well, probably a lot of things) because this is RDM's vehicle, and we're just in it for the ride.

And for the clones. Right, genji? ;)

[Proxenus]

"Fundamentally different" does not mean "wholly different" and it certainly doesn't mean "physically different". The fundamental difference is likely to be in the model's consciousness.

Actually, we "know" they have physical differences. Remember that, at the very least, Colonel Tigh (if not Chief Tyrol) went through Gaius Baltar's "Cylon Detector" (patent pending) and probably came up negative. While it is possible that Mr. Baltar decided not reveal that Colonel Tigh was a Cylon, it is unlikely given his discussion with Caprica Six on the Cylon Basestar (about only seeing the same seven models).

So, at least Colonel Tigh (and possibly Chief Tyrol) are physically similar to humans as to not reveal their true nature in the "Cylon Detector."

Also, there's a possible debate as to their physical limitations. While Tory Foster exhibited a high degree of strength, Colonel Tigh did not when he fought Admiral Adama. Now, it could be that Colonel Tigh's heart wasn't in the fight and he held back, but it did not appear that he did.

The development of the humanoid Cylons is far too mysterious to say this or that would or wouldn't have happened. All manner of explanations could cover this. A number of people on this forum reckon the Final Five influenced or even instigated the development of the humanoid Cylons, in which case they could easily have found a way to make an Eight body capable of hosting a Seven consciousness.

While this is possible, it seems a bit contrived in my opinion. Almost like the last episode of Star Trek: Voyager (where the series was ending and they made up a bunch of crap to get the USS Voyager back to Earth).

In my experience, the simplest answer is generally the best answer. In this regard, you have to assume that all Cylons are downloaded from the same seven basal personality constructs. From there, each Cylon model will change based on their experiences. However, when each Cylon is downloaded, their new experiences are saved for later access.

If Boomer is the Final Cylon, it would stand to reason that someone on the main Cylon fleet has figured it out because her consciousness was saved to the "server." Or, at the minimum, noted unusual streams in the file such as memories of Earth.

I'm not saying that Boomer is not the Final Cylon. I'm just pointing out the difficulties in that rationale.

[genji2000]

Actually, we "know" they have physical differences.

And I've said so. I didn't say "fundamental differences" means they don't have physical differences. I said it doesn't mean they surely are physically different. We can't assume that because they are F5 that this is the reason they can procreate with S7. It could simply be that Tigh loves Caprica Six because he sees Ellen in her.

Remember that, at the very least, Colonel Tigh (if not Chief Tyrol) went through Gaius Baltar's "Cylon Detector" (patent pending) and probably came up negative. While it is possible that Mr. Baltar decided not reveal that Colonel Tigh was a Cylon, it is unlikely given his discussion with Caprica Six on the Cylon Basestar (about only seeing the same seven models).

So, at least Colonel Tigh (and possibly Chief Tyrol) are physically similar to humans as to not reveal their true nature in the "Cylon Detector."

I think Baltar just didn't reveal anyone as a Cylon. For him what difference does it make whether they're Cylon or human? He had no allegiance to the colonials.

Also, there's a possible debate as to their physical limitations. While Tory Foster exhibited a high degree of strength, Colonel Tigh did not when he fought Admiral Adama. Now, it could be that Colonel Tigh's heart wasn't in the fight and he held back, but it did not appear that he did.

Or that Adama got in a lucky kick and Tigh came to his senses.

While this is possible, it seems a bit contrived in my opinion. Almost like the last episode of Star Trek: Voyager (where the series was ending and they made up a bunch of crap to get the USS Voyager back to Earth).

I'm just saying that that period in the development of the humanoid models is too murky to state that this or that happened.

In my experience, the simplest answer is generally the best answer.

But not necessarily the right answer. If it's a complex question then the answer is likely to be equally complex.

In this regard, you have to assume that all Cylons are downloaded from the same seven basal personality constructs.

This is one of the two main hurdles of the Boomer idea. Its solution is that the Boomer consciousness is so similar to an Eight's (the 1% difference) that it is undetectable by Cylon investigation. Accepting that analysis may come down to one's personal preference for science or fiction. If you can't buy it then I can't tell you it's plausible. I do buy it.

From there, each Cylon model will change based on their experiences. However, when each Cylon is downloaded, their new experiences are saved for later access.

If Boomer is the Final Cylon, it would stand to reason that someone on the main Cylon fleet has figured it out because her consciousness was saved to the "server." Or, at the minimum, noted unusual streams in the file such as memories of Earth.

> if x=final_cylon then go to {ignore}

I'm not saying that Boomer is not the Final Cylon. I'm just pointing out the difficulties in that rationale.

I'm not saying she is, but I think the difficulties are more rationally explained than e.g. "the Cylons substituted a clone for baby Lee".

[The Dirt]

Do we really want BSG to go to such preposterous soap opera means to explain something? If Boomer is the final cylon because of some crazy techno-babble explanation worthy of a cheap 80s soap opera, then I'm done with the show. Thankfully, the writers are smarter than that. No offense... but I find this hard to swallow.

[Proxenus]

And I've said so. I didn't say "fundamental differences" means they don't have physical differences. I said it doesn't mean they surely are physically different. We can't assume that because they are F5 that this is the reason they can procreate with S7. It could simply be that Tigh loves Caprica Six because he sees Ellen in her.

And I'm pointing that the Four are physically different than the Seven. If they were not physically different than the Seven, they would have shown up on Baltar's "Cylon Detector" (patent pending).

I think Baltar just didn't reveal anyone as a Cylon. For him what difference does it make whether they're Cylon or human? He had no allegiance to the colonials.

I agree with you on that point. However, I'm refering to the conversation between Caprica Six and Mr. Baltar on the Cylon Basestar in Torn (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Torn). He states that while the Cylons were on New Caprica and during his time on the Basestar, he's only seen seven humanoid Cylon models.

If he knew that Colonel Tigh or Chief Tyrol were also Cylons through his test, he would have said nine instead of seven. He had no motivation (at least at that time) to not reveal that Colonel Tigh or Chief Tyrol were Cylons if he knew it (and that was an akward sentence).

Given that the test is based on chemical reactions to samples, it is safe to assume that Boomer (who did test positive) was fundamentally different than Colonel Tigh (who we have to assume did not). Thus, we can assume that Colonel Tigh was physically different than Boomer. That physical difference would be a fundamental difference.


Or that Adama got in a lucky kick and Tigh came to his senses.

I concede. I was just pointing out that it was debatable.

I'm just saying that that period in the development of the humanoid models is too murky to state that this or that happened.

I agree, but we can make some assumptions based on the show's statements.

But not necessarily the right answer. If it's a complex question then the answer is likely to be equally complex.

Again, I agree. My point is, however, the more you try to make the answer complex, the more difficult it is to cover all the possible angles. If you keep it simple, you can adjust easier to new information.

This is one of the two main hurdles of the Boomer idea. Its solution is that the Boomer consciousness is so similar to an Eight's (the 1% difference) that it is undetectable by Cylon investigation. Accepting that analysis may come down to one's personal preference for science or fiction. If you can't buy it then I can't tell you it's plausible. I do buy it.

> if x=final_cylon then go to {ignore}

It is plausible, but at some point people are going to say "that's just ridiculous" and walk away. I nearly did it when Colonel Tigh was revealed to be a Cylon. There are so many problems with Colonel Tigh being a Cylon that I cannot discuss here. If they reveal Boomer to be the Final Cylon, it woudl be a ridiculous turn of events and they'd have to jump through a ton of hoops to make it work (or the ever favorite, "God did it").

I'm not saying she is, but I think the difficulties are more rationally explained than e.g. "the Cylons substituted a clone for baby Lee".

Oh, I agree with you there. The "baby Cylon Lee" is preposterous also.

[genji2000]

And I'm pointing that the Four are physically different than the Seven. If they were not physically different than the Seven, they would have shown up on Baltar's "Cylon Detector" (patent pending).

I'm not disagreeing! :lol: You forgot underline. Physiology is not the be all and end all is all I'm saying.

I agree with you on that point. However, I'm refering to the conversation between Caprica Six and Mr. Baltar on the Cylon Basestar in Torn (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Torn). He states that while the Cylons were on New Caprica and during his time on the Basestar, he's only seen seven humanoid Cylon models.

If he knew that Colonel Tigh or Chief Tyrol were also Cylons through his test, he would have said nine instead of seven. He had no motivation (at least at that time) to not reveal that Colonel Tigh or Chief Tyrol were Cylons if he knew it (and that was an akward sentence).

Ah right. Yes. Fair enough. Did Tigh actually get the Cylon test? Was it at the end of Tigh Me Up Tigh Me Down? I don't remember him having the test but I probably just didn't notice it. I don't think Tyrol was ever tested.

Given that the test is based on chemical reactions to samples, it is safe to assume that Boomer (who did test positive) was fundamentally different than Colonel Tigh (who we have to assume did not). Thus, we can assume that Colonel Tigh was physically different than Boomer. That physical difference would be a fundamental difference.

Yes. I totally agree. That's spot on. A fundamental difference. But not necessarily the fundamental difference that RDM referred to. :devil:

I concede. I was just pointing out that it was debatable.

I agree, but we can make some assumptions based on the show's statements.

Why not? It is a forum.

Again, I agree. My point is, however, the more you try to make the answer complex, the more difficult it is to cover all the possible angles. If you keep it simple, you can adjust easier to new information.

It is plausible, but at some point people are going to say "that's just ridiculous" and walk away. I nearly did it when Colonel Tigh was revealed to be a Cylon. There are so many problems with Colonel Tigh being a Cylon that I cannot discuss here. If they reveal Boomer to be the Final Cylon, it woudl be a ridiculous turn of events and they'd have to jump through a ton of hoops to make it work (or the ever favorite, "God did it").

Well there you have it. Tigh as a Cylon? If they execute it well enough, with an exciting soundtrack and Hulk Hogan in the driving seat ("You are the Fifth") then we'll buy anything they're selling I reckon. For all we know the Writers sit around smoking pot asking each other what the most ridiculous reveal they can get away with is and yet make us all go "whoa!"

Oh, I agree with you there. The "baby Cylon Lee" is preposterous also.

What do you mean "also"? Cheek.

[cameraguyfresno]

is there any proof that Baltar's cylon detecting machine works. his personality is basically saying what people want to hear and making himself feel important then putting blame on something or someone else when he or his work fails. i never really thought it worked. if there are other references that it did indeed worked let me know.

[Xenon242]

is there any proof that Baltar's cylon detecting machine works. his personality is basically saying what people want to hear and making himself feel important then putting blame on something or someone else when he or his work fails. i never really thought it worked. if there are other references that it did indeed worked let me know.

I believe it worked; Boomer showed red across the board. My thought was always that he knew it would work, because he had a vested interest in covering his arse for fear of being discovered as having aided and abetted the Cylon attack on the colonies, somehow. Particularly since he wasn't entirely sure of his own nature, by virtue of Head 6's presence.

[Jason1975]

I believe it worked; Boomer showed red across the board. My thought was always that he knew it would work, because he had a vested interest in covering his arse for fear of being discovered as having aided and abetted the Cylon attack on the colonies, somehow. Particularly since he wasn't entirely sure of his own nature, by virtue of Head 6's presence.

Good Explanation. :thumbsup:

[cameraguyfresno]

yeap good explaination. this is why good friends of mine should get me the complete dvd collection. :lol:

Good Explanation. :thumbsup:

[Proxenus]

Ah right. Yes. Fair enough. Did Tigh actually get the Cylon test? Was it at the end of Tigh Me Up Tigh Me Down? I don't remember him having the test but I probably just didn't notice it. I don't think Tyrol was ever tested.

There's no direct statement that Colonel Tigh was tested. However, the CIC staff was high priority for testing, with Admiral Adama being first. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that Tigh was tested early on.

As for Chief Tyrol, I am less sure if he would have been tested. However, he is in a key position, so it would not be infeasible that he be tested early on. However, on the other hand, Chief Tyrol kept having dreams in Lay Down Your Burdens that he was a Cylon. If he was tested and found negative, his fears would have been eased. On the other hand, this is after Boomer shot Admiral Adama and the test was deemed a failure (though, it does really work), so he may have discounted the test.

Either way, I'm confident in saying that Colonel Tigh was tested and not revealed as a Cylon whereas Boomer was tested and revealed as a Cylon.

[Wouter]

I seem to have missed quite the thread here! I'm happy that support is quite strong for the Boomer theory here, the theory is not popular on most other boards (and not even mentioned on scifi at all AFAIK). By the way, Boomer was in range of a resurrectio ship when she died in early S2. The resurrection ship that was discovered by Pegasus' Raptors had been following Galactica around.

My posts were mentioned a number of times. Almost all were made in the spoiler forum (allthough the final Cylon-thread of that forum has been moved to this one now), and you may need to check the option in your profile to enter that forum to read them.

I agree with cameraguyfresno that the case for Boomer is one of elimination of other major candidates and of noticing that she conforms to all the known requirements for being the final Cylon (besides the problem that she already is a Cylon herself). And it's D'Anna's "there are four in the fleet" that puts Boomer on the front row of the possible candidates. However, I was already toying with this idea way back when I first heard the Razor phrophecy, combined with RDM's comments on the last supper picture. Back then, Zarek, Gaeta, Dualla were stronger candidates though, without the need for explanations why they already are Cylons.

After "Revelations", those candidates have a big problem though since working around D'Anna's statement is not easy (saying that's she's wrong or lying also requires a convoluted explanation). Characters that still remain (could conform to D'Anna's statement) are either dead, believed dead, left behind or it's Seelix (who wasn't shown in "revelations" IIRC, so she could have been taken captive by Cavil's forces potentially, or have been killed). Seelix is a good candidate except for being a fairly minor character; IMO she fails the "emotional response" that some of the producers promise for the reveal. The character has nothing going against her, but no hints for her either. With Boomer OTOH, there are some possible hints. What made me suspicious to start with was the combination of the promised "Boomer will be back, big time" and the subsequent treatment of the character in S4 as piece of the decor surrounding Cavil. Boomer has been written in a weird way since early S3, but if Taylor's promise is accurate then they haven't given up on the character as seems to be the case at first sight.

My arguments why Boomer could be the fifth, and is even the prime candidate now IMO:
-she is in the series from the beginning/S1 (this is not really required though as Taylor only said they were having a character in mind by late S1 that could still change)
-her reveal could/would be dramatic to viewers and characters alike; Boomer has strong ties with lots of main characters (Adama, Starbuck, Tyrol, Tigh, Helo, Athena, Cap-6, D'Anna, Gaeta, Racetrack, even Anders and deckhands like Seelix to a lesser extent)
-her reveal would be a major surprise for the fans, explaining why so many guesses "aren't even close"
-Boomer fits the "razor" prophecy well; she seems to be in need of redemption (being a cylon, shooting Adama, being on New Caprica, turning her back on the humans, siding with Cavil) and deep down she would probably long for her old life
-Boomer is the only known sleeper agent, other than the Dylan 4. All the other Cylon agents that we ever heard of were aware
-Boomer is not in the fleet as of "revelations", and since D'Anna has seen her this would explain why she is so sure there are only 4 in the fleet
-A big role for her was promised to us for S4, and they haven't delivered yet. Making her the final Cylon would explain the promise.
-D'Anna is surprised when she sees one of the FF Cylons in the temple vision: "You? Forgive me, I had no idea". Anders fits, but Boomer perhaps even more, as she would be surprised at seeing a known Cylon, and Anders may not yet have been decided on as a Cylon by the writers at that point


There are a few things that could be possible winks from the writers, allthough they don't mean anything by themselves:
-as noted, the suggestive swelling of the music when D'Anna turns her attention to Boomer in "The hub". "Something shiny" is a strange comment; I though D'Anna was perhaps thinking of Tyrol there (who she knows is FFer), allthough as an insult it seems way of the mark for Boomer (though not for the 8 line).

-Gaeta's song, while only described as a longing love song by Bear McCreary, has lyrics that could well be about the final Cylon - who may well be female and may have to "please some day wake" if she is a sleeper, as I suppose the 5th will be needed for something important. "Alone she sleep in the shirt of man" is a line that seems well suited to Boomer (especially her time right after her first download)

-In "revelations", when Tigh confesses to Adama, he responds to Adama's question "switched on!?" with "like Boomer .... I'm one of the five". Of course, the five comment is separate from "I was switched on like Boomer", but it's funny to notice the editing of this line when you're thinking of Boomer as the final Cylon. They could easily have avoided this effect where a promo could make it seem like Tigh is saying Boomer is one of the five, so it may be writers playing a joke on the audience

-early on in S4, when the 268 alliance first goes to Cavil to tell him about the Final Five being in the human fleet, the excited 8 asks "do you think they look anything like us?". Could be another wink - if Boomer is one of the FF, well, she looks exactly like her.


There are problems with the theory though:
-Caprica-6 says she can feel the 5 are close. But the problem here is, none of the 7 actually seems to "feel" or otherwise recognize the FF Cylons - witness Leoben with Anders, Natalie with Tigh and Tory, and I don't think Cap-6 recognized Tigh as cylon either, allthough this is left a bit ambiguous. I think Cap-6's feeling is coming from her dream of the opera house, where she has seen the final five looming over her and Baltar and Hera. D'Anna OTOH, clearly knows her stuff: she recognized Tory and Tigh with no problems, and she says 4.

-D'Anna first offends Boomer and then ignores her, on the hub. However, Cavil is with them when she wakes up. Cavil, who has proven to be allergic to attempts to uncover the identity of the FF. Would D'Anna risk revealing the identity of one of them to Cavil, especially one of them who may be in his power? How would he react?

It is possible that D'Anna is convinced that Boomer isn't aware what she is (assuming she is the final one; she would then be a double sleeper) and is very disappointed that she is in Cavil's camp. Since they have a very difficult relationship and she has to kill Cavil to be able to speak freely (which Boomer seemed not to appreciate to much), I could see her giving up Boomer as a lost cause for the time being (until she wakes up, at least, and if not than four final Cylons in the hand is better than 5 out in space).

-Boomer is a Cylon already. This is the major problem with her and the reason many think it downright ridiculous to even start to consider her. However, keep in mind we know little about the origin of the seven, how they came up with the numbering, what the differences are with the five and also that the knowledge of the cylons themselves is limited. They can hardly think about the FF, and the fact that they did not build a backup for the hub (and the suggestion is they can't build a new one either) indicates they may not even know their own technology, at least the download process, very well. Did they inherit the hub, rather than build it themselves? The inhibitions regarding FF-thoughts and the "zombie" mode of sleeper agents also shows us that Cylons can be programmed to do (or not do) things without being aware of it, or even programmed not to think about something.

We know there are 12 models, but this knowledge comes from the Cylons themselves, and can be flawed. We don't know for sure who made them and what the relation between the 5 and the 7 is. Nowhere does it say that all those models must have a different appearance; one model could be a slight modification of another, as far as we know, with the difference being possibly only in the "software", the personality template (which is separate from memories). Such duplicate models could be compatible with each other for download and memory sharing, while still maintaining a different base personality and possible embedded (sleeper) programming. And their origins would be different, too. There could even no difference at all, if the 8s are pure copies of a FF model; origin and experiences would be the only difference with the original. And there would be only 11 models (Cap-6 is mistaken on the five being close, too, so why not about this?) then.

Names can be given arbitrarily; suppose the FF models existed long before the others, then whoever came round to make the next seven ("the original or not-so-original programmers") may have opted for six new models and one copy (perhaps slightly improved/changed) of an existing one. Or, it may have been planned from way back by someone/something manipulating everything (what happened to Kara? What is going on with the headpeople?), and exactly to fool the seven they introduced a "double" model with the purpose of having an agent who could assume their identity.

The body that Boomer downloads into, is not even necessarily that of an 8 (allthough it could be if the difference is purely in the part that can be downloaded). It is sufficient that there is a code embedded in the control software of the download process that makes sure a subtly different (say, brain difference only) body is used when Boomer has to download, and the same hidden code would make sure that those "special" bodies (of which each resurrection ship could have a few available hidden among many 8 reserve bodies) are not used for regular 8s. The Cylons of the 7 wouldn't notice anything if they don't understand and check the process 100%, and even then they may have been programmed to simply ignore it if they did notice, like they are programmed not to think about the FF.

The same trick could allow "dead" characters to download using resurrection technology of the seven, allthough in this case the cylons really would have to be programmed to ignore the visible presence of unfamiliar bodies in their stash (not to mention, said body coming to life).

-Another big problem for Boomer though, are some of her actions as sleeper agent in S1. Presumably, her even deeper FF programming would have stopped her from doing very bad things to the fleet, allthough she has to maintain her cover wrt the Cylons of being their agent, so she has to do something at times. Shooting Adama could be explainable if the FF plan involved the arrow of Apollo being brought to Kobol (which would not have happened with Adama in control), but the sabotage of the water supply serves no FF purpose I could think of. Ot it would require them (whoever is behind the FF) to be able to foresee that a water source would be near and that Zarek would come into play this way, but that is a stretch as Pythia and the hybrids would be jealous of their predictive powers.

Now, the possible explanations for Boomer not being an 8 (or the 8s being a copy of one of the final cylon models, so there are only 11 total really) are quite convoluted, but all other candidates require probably equally convoluted explanations as to how they're back from the dead or why D'Anna doesn't finger them as final Cylon in "Revelations". Seelix is a different case, but this character seems not important enough to warrant being the final cylon - and if she is the final Cylon, she should be either in D'Anna's hands now on the baseship or she is missing after the attack on the hub. If she was treated like Hot Dog and the rest of the hostages (and returned to Galactica afterwards), then she can't be the final Cylon.

[Wouter]

Either way, I'm confident in saying that Colonel Tigh was tested and not revealed as a Cylon whereas Boomer was tested and revealed as a Cylon.
You are very probably correct, another problem for Boomer.

However, Baltar wasn't honest in reporting his results (Boomer got the green light, as far as everyone was told). One reason why he didn't was that he feared the command structure was infiltrated by the Cylons, and he should wait before he had tested the lot of them to be sure the Cylons wouldn't take him and his detector out (now they would think it ineffective). Take them all out in one go. Then he said everybody would get the green light, at the end of "tigh me up, Tigh me down.

So, did he test Tigh and was the result as red as Boomer, but he just didn't tell anyone? I must admit that it didn't show in his behaviour toward Tigh if so, though. Or did he not test Tigh? In "tigh me up, Tigh me down", his testing priorities kept getting changed between Ellen and Adama sr. . We're sure he tested Ellen (the mysterious "Ill never tell what the result was"); did he get the time to test Tigh himself as well while starting over and over with the tests on Adama and Ellen? At the end of that episode, he decided to quit actually running the tests, IIRC, so Tigh may have been cutting it close either way.

[cameraguyfresno]

perfect...the often mentioned and revered wouter. it totally and augments what many were thinking but put comprehensively succinct. :) thanks!

for me before revelations and D'Anna proclamation the field was pretty wide open - zarek, fan favorite Romo, curiously often mentioned Cally and Zak among others. with my favorite being Seelix.

wouter your reputation is well deserved indeed.

[Pnutmaster]

Kobol's Last Gleaming Part 1 contains a sit down between Baltar and Boomer, with "Head Six" leaving comments from the celestial peanut gallery.


Head Six: Her model is weak, always has been, but in the end she'll carry out her mission.
I read that as a disparaging remark made about the Eights. From a writer's standpoint, it would seem to help the viewer accept that both Boomer and Athena are multi-layered Cylons questioning their protocols. It's, as "Head Six" says, part of their model.

Let's recall that this remark is made by the ever omniscient "Head Six" ("Head Baltar", but the same entity IMO) who knew that Tori, for one, was "special". Surely, if Boomer is the Seventh model, "Head Six" would know, right?

Boomer is special in her own right and has reason to return prominently in Season Four. She was the lover of Tyrol and a valued member of the crew. She's changed allegiances before and can change again. The fans will want her story wrapped up, whether she's the Final Cylon or not.

[Proxenus]

Good Explanation. :thumbsup:

You are very probably correct, another problem for Boomer.

However, Baltar wasn't honest in reporting his results (Boomer got the green light, as far as everyone was told). One reason why he didn't was that he feared the command structure was infiltrated by the Cylons, and he should wait before he had tested the lot of them to be sure the Cylons wouldn't take him and his detector out (now they would think it ineffective). Take them all out in one go. Then he said everybody would get the green light, at the end of "tigh me up, Tigh me down.

So, did he test Tigh and was the result as red as Boomer, but he just didn't tell anyone? I must admit that it didn't show in his behaviour toward Tigh if so, though. Or did he not test Tigh? In "tigh me up, Tigh me down", his testing priorities kept getting changed between Ellen and Adama sr. . We're sure he tested Ellen (the mysterious "Ill never tell what the result was"); did he get the time to test Tigh himself as well while starting over and over with the tests on Adama and Ellen? At the end of that episode, he decided to quit actually running the tests, IIRC, so Tigh may have been cutting it close either way.

If you read one of my prior posts, I answer the question about Colonel Tigh being tested and coming up positive. When Mr. Baltar is on the Cylon Basestar, he mentions to Caprica 6 that he's only seen 7 models of humanoid Cylons. At that point, he does not know anything about the Final Five except that he knows there are twelve. If Colonel Tigh was tested and came up postive, Mr. Baltar had no reason to not reveal it to Caprica 6. Thus, you can assume that Mr. Baltar knows of no other models than the Seven.

As far as Colonel Tigh being tested, we have no direct proof. However, as I mentioned earlier, the CIC staff was first on priority to be tested. It is not unreasonable to assume that Colonel Tigh was tested unless he avoided it, purposefully or subconsciously.

[Starstruck]

Yay, I'm glad to see your theory by you. You apparently haven't started any threads, so finding your theory has been a challenge.

It's well thought-out and makes sense and could be it.

There are big problems, though.

One problem you discuss is the downloading problem. Why would a final fiver be able to download into a seven body, specifically, an 8 model? We know they're "fundamentally different" but we don't know how. The evidence we've seen has made many of us guess that part of the fundamental difference is that the final five don't resurrect. That may not be true. Perhaps the final five can download, as you say, but your explanation, that there are slightly different bodies on the resurrection ship, and the seven just don't notice seems wacky. The seven know everything about their ships. Why would they not know this? This seems like way too big of a thing to suspend disbelief about and accept.

The known models planted Boomer with the humans to be a sleeper agent. This was planned and known about. Her false memories were implanted. They sent the signal to wake her up. My point is she was not woken up by the nebulla or a beacon like the other four. If she is the final, she must have been planted twice, first by the five with the seven, and then by the seven with the humans. What a big coincidence that the seven chose this particular one of the 8s to put on BSG! Another huge coincidence for us to stomach. Not that BSG hasn't had other huge coincidences.

Perhaps the thing that makes it hardest for me to believe it's Boomer is D'anna's reaction to her. Boomer is one of the final five, a special one since she was separated from the other five, and D'anna doesn't even speak to her after killing Cavil? This seems wrong. I think she would have chased her down and wanted to go with her. Once the humans came to save her, she would have wanted to find Boomer to save her as well. The fact that neither happened made it seems D'anna didn't care one way or the other about Boomer.

None of these kill the theory. They're just a few arguments against it.

[Pnutmaster]

This seems wrong. I think she would have chased her down and wanted to go with her. Once the humans came to save her, she would have wanted to find Boomer to save her as well. The fact that neither happened made it seems D'anna didn't care one way or the other about Boomer.


A very good point. D'Anna had no way of knowing that Boomer would escape the Resurrection Hub alive after the humans arrived. Hell, I would have assumed Boomer died on the Resurrection Ship if there weren't official comments about her return in the second half of the season.

[Wouter]

A very good point. D'Anna had no way of knowing that Boomer would escape the Resurrection Hub alive after the humans arrived. Hell, I would have assumed Boomer died on the Resurrection Ship if there weren't official comments about her return in the second half of the season.
There are official comments about that? I think Jane Espenson suggested strongly that she survived, but that she would return to the story?
Having shown her running, presumably either to a transport or to resurrect Cavil as fast as possible (giving him priority or something), suggested she would make it off on time anyway. Else we would have gotten a short death scene I think (the way she has been written lately, probably her tripping accidentally and breaking her neck). :mad:

If you read one of my prior posts, I answer the question about Colonel Tigh being tested and coming up positive. When Mr. Baltar is on the Cylon Basestar, he mentions to Caprica 6 that he's only seen 7 models of humanoid Cylons. At that point, he does not know anything about the Final Five except that he knows there are twelve. If Colonel Tigh was tested and came up postive, Mr. Baltar had no reason to not reveal it to Caprica 6. Thus, you can assume that Mr. Baltar knows of no other models than the Seven.

You're right. No positive results then, not on Ellen either.


Perhaps the final five can download, as you say, but your explanation, that there are slightly different bodies on the resurrection ship, and the seven just don't notice seems wacky. The seven know everything about their ships. Why would they not know this? This seems like way too big of a thing to suspend disbelief about and accept. .
They may know their baseships (allthough lots of its operation is left to the hybrids), but it is curious that the hub is a one-of-a-kind. No backups? No replacement can be build? Why not, they should have build the one in the first place, and they have plenty of baseships so no lack of resources and labour. They also don't fully understand their purporse/origin/programming, as the rebels wanted to meet the final five to find out more about that. So, I'm not sure they know everything about the resurrection process. I also don't think the other 4 can download; they may lack compatible bodies. If Boomer is not an 8, at least this model is very close to hers.


The known models planted Boomer with the humans to be a sleeper agent. This was planned and known about. Her false memories were implanted. They sent the signal to wake her up. My point is she was not woken up by the nebula or a beacon like the other four. If she is the final, she must have been planted twice, first by the five with the seven, and then by the seven with the humans. What a big coincidence that the seven chose this particular one of the 8s to put on BSG! Another huge coincidence for us to stomach.
True. I suppose the presence of a higher power should be in place here (in my theory, the Final Cylon is even less aware than the other 4 so the mastermind is an outside force, "the original programmer" or "god" or whatever), or it doesn't quite work.

Then again, Boomer may not have been actually placed by the 7. If this mysterious force has access to the programming of the 7 (on the level that can stop them thinking about the FF at all), they could have programmed them with false memories of sending out Boomer as an agent, while Boomer actually really grew up with the humans as much as the other four did. Or, they did send her out to be an agent, but because of hidden instructions in their programming.


Perhaps the thing that makes it hardest for me to believe it's Boomer is D'anna's reaction to her. Boomer is one of the final five, a special one since she was separated from the other five, and D'anna doesn't even speak to her after killing Cavil? This seems wrong. I think she would have chased her down and wanted to go with her. Once the humans came to save her, she would have wanted to find Boomer to save her as well. The fact that neither happened made it seems D'anna didn't care one way or the other about Boomer.

Also true. Only explanation I can give is that D'Anna had no idea how to convince Boomer to come with her, as she is likely to disbelief anything she says (they are borderline enemies, not helped by killing Cavil). Trying to follow her may have resulted in a fight, as Boomer would feel threatened.

She could have asked Helo to look for her though, I suppose, and she didn't seem devastated by the possible loss of one of the precious final five Cylons either.

It's a shame we will have to wait until well into next year before we'll know for sure. I just hope that the writers will have credible explanations, whoever it turns out to be.

[Jason1975]

There are problems with the theory though:
-Caprica-6 says she can feel the 5 are close. But the problem here is, none of the 7 actually seems to "feel" or otherwise recognize the FF Cylons - witness Leoben with Anders, Natalie with Tigh and Tory, and I don't think Cap-6 recognized Tigh as cylon either, allthough this is left a bit ambiguous. I think Cap-6's feeling is coming from her dream of the opera house, where she has seen the final five looming over her and Baltar and Hera. D'Anna OTOH, clearly knows her stuff: she recognized Tory and Tigh with no problems, and she says 4.



Caprica six felt that the five are close. She did not see what they look like.

After watching Faith again, I came up with this theory,

each human and cylon is divided into a spirit and a body:


the spirit is the memory, personality, essence, soul. You cannot see the spirit but you might be able to feel them.



the body is the DNA, looks, build, the vessel that carries the spirit, what dies. You can see them.

Somehow the cylons are or were capable of uploading and downloading part or all of the spirit from one body to the next.

So I am saying that the spirit of the fifth and the original body of the fifth have been separated.

So, Caprica Six can feel the spirits of the five are close. She does not know anything about the what the five look look like, part of the body.

D'Anna saw what each of the final five originally look like and looks are part of the body. That why she can recognize them. Usually, this would be enough. Unless, the original body of the fifth cylon died.


So, that why I believe that both of them are telling the truth or believe they are telling the truth.

[alpha5099]

After reading a post of Wouter's the other day, and mulling over the idea a fair amount since then, I'm pretty much convinced that Boomer is the best candidate for the Final Cylon. (For the record, my former favored Final Cylon was Lee.) I had heard idle theories that one of the Significant Seven might end up being the Final Cylon before, but most of those sounded ridiculous and unconvincing. But once I started thinking about all the evidence and the potential dramatic payoff of Boomer, I was sold. Most of what's convinced me has already been stated in this thread, but there's a couple points I'd like to mention:

• Genji, just a correction: "Shiny" is from Firefly, not Buffy. And I can't see anyway it would be a reference, just a coincident.

• Also, I have to question Genji's rebuttal to camera's point about D'Anna's "shiny" line (which I think is a very good catch: obviously meant to sound like an insult but might be a clue). Yes, D'Anna has no conscious knowledge of the First Hybrid's monologue, so she wasn't necessarily consciously making the connection when she said it, but that doesn't mean that her line can't have that secondary meaning. The writers can be making that link for the audience, without the characters necessarily knowing exactly what they're implying to us.

• I think this was covered already, but I've always felt that Baltar just completely gave up on actually doing the Cylon tests, and gave everyone a clean bill of humanity. If not, that's a huge shot in the foot for the Boomer theory, as why the heck is she coming up Cylon while Tigh (and maybe Tyrol) came up human? Of course, you could fanwank it to say that Boomer at that point had already downloaded into a Cylon body, and got flagged by the system.

Personally, I go in for a theory where the Final Five work by reincarnation (which, if you think about it, isn't that different from downloading). I've seen a lot of people complaining about this sort of thing, saying it would be a cheat, but I think it's the best explanation for how a bunch of people with very verifiable human histories could be Cylons, whatever that means. Meanwhile, the other Final Five hijacked a Significant Seven body, and tada, Boomer.

[Libran_luv]

I have a theory of my own, and I think the Cylon babies are the clue.

So far, we have two babies born of at least one Cylon parent, and one Cylon who is pregnant.

The two babies are Hera (parents = Athena and Karl "Helo" Agathon) and Nicholas (parents = Cally and Galen "Chief" Tyrol).

In the last episode of Season 4, it was revealed that the Six copy imprisoned on Galactica is pregnant, and the father would be Saul Tigh.

This requires a bit of deductive reasoning, but I think it works. Right now, the common denominator between the Cylon babies appears to be not a Cylon mother, but rather a Cylon father. That we know of, Chief and Tigh are Cylons, and both were able to empregnate a female, whether or not she was Cylon. There is no such constant as to the female. That is, the women who fall pregnant are not necessarily Cylon themselves.

As well, Tigh and Chief are notably of the "final five" order, which separates them from the first seven. As indicated in the first season, Cylons want to reproduce but don't appear to be able. It seems that there has to be some genetic formula that would allow it to happen. My argument is that those in the final five can reproduce, and since there's one of the five left to reveal, we could deduce that Helo is the last.

Now I realize that this is a bit of a stretch, since Helo has been a supporting, albeit strong character. Nothing in his behaviour seems to suggest that he might be a Cylon. Then again, who suspected Chief, or Tigh for that matter?

It seems the writers of the show might not resort to one of the obvious choices for the final Cylon revelation. Admiral Adama, President Roslin, and Kara "Starbuck" Thrace all seem like fairly easy options, and ones that we, in the audience, might expect.

Another reason I think the final five are able to reproduce, where the first seven can't, is that we've been told that they are somehow connected to Earth. I believe that this connection to Earth somehow endows the final five with the ability to reproduce.

I don't believe Boomer/8 can be taken into consideration since she's one of the first seven. She already has a spot in the family tree. It wouldn't make sense to give her two, nor is it necessary, in terms of plot thickness. It would be much more interesting to use another character, especially one we wouldn't expect.

Them's my two cents. Run with it if you want to. :)

[cameraguyfresno]

I do wonder how people can simply dismiss the idea that Boomer can’t be the fifth simply because she is a cylon. How could Anders et al be the final four if they were human?





I want to argue in a general logical supposition as opposed to very detailed and assumed technical science fiction babble on downloads and possible secret imbedded ff orders hidden inside….


We know that the FF are different from the cylons. We are all coming to understand that humans and cylons are overlapping and the differences minute. How can we put limitations without knowing the full limitations of the FF? We can't! I don't think we can assume they can fly or throw fireballs but within the mythology of BSG it's not such a stretch. If we can’t put limitations on the FF then the idea that Boomer can’t be the Fifth fail because we simply don’t know how different the fifth is and their limitations. We are left to the idea that it is possible and NOT impossible. Couple that with all the other conditions met for being the FF…I think we have a very compelling case.


I disagree that Boomer is not even a cylon. I think that argument is used to eradicate the “Boomer can’t be the fifth because she is a cylon.” IMO I believe Boomer to be an 8 like any other 8. She shot Adama because her cylon programming. She is just like any other 8 until she sees the light..or hears the music or is “turned on” to her true self – see the other four where they did everything that humans would do – kill and hate cylons and even kill their most cherished wife because she collaborated with a cylon. The idea here is that the FF all act and cruise in their normal set life until activated. Boomer could be liken to a double agent who in the end works actually works for a third party when she is “activated” and in the meantime works diligently for her “side”. Okay kinda weak analogy but you get the gist of my argument for her behaving what and a cylon would.


An aside before I came to realize Boomer was the Fifth. Many of us had this romantic idea that Boomer would eventually get back with Tyrol and that she was merely playing Cavel and would eventually come back to humanity and or the rebel cylons – since it was said Boomer was to have a big role in season 4. This thought process eventually led to the realization that she is the fifth. It is a big role indeed!


I think some of us may be over thinking it when we add the download process into the mix. Why wasn’t Boomer detected etc? Go back to the general idea that the Final Five are 100% who they are until “activated” for lack of a better word.


Now Starstruck made an excellent observation wondering about the integral scene of Boomer/Cavel and D’Anna in the Hub. Why doesn’t D’Anna just say,”Hey Boomer…you’re it. Our leader – tell us what to do.” I think we would not have a cliff hanger if that scene went that way right? It’s acceptable for us – me to accept that the writers had to put Boomer somewhere else and D’Anna in the arms of Helo and an 8 to meet with Roslin and had to write it that way. If we can accept that taking anti-radiation pills is good enough after a planet wide nuclear bombardment then D’Anna “testing” Boomer or being rude as a ruse to test her is not too far a stretch.
Like I mentioned before many of you are obviously intelligent and sometimes too intelligent creating plots and answers to plot holes that may be too high brow or too high concept for tv writers to put into tv for a tv audience. In the end Boomer is simply the best candidate and the only one that fits the major conditions as well as having a tremendous cinematic pay off for us.


I think we had a little snaffoo earlier but the last posts are excellent and made me very happy to join this forum and really adds to my enjoyment of this excellent show.

[ranvir]

I think the case for Boomer is an interesting and convincing one (the potential foreshadowing of D'Anna's comments was a nice observation, btw). I don't know who the last of the FF is (I suppose if forced to answer I would now say either Boomer or Kendra) and, personally, I don't much feel like going through painstaking analysis in order to come up with a theory that might be completely wrong. That said, good job guys, haha.

Just a quick note on the baby theory... Look at the couples: Caprica (Cylon) and Tigh (Cylon), Athena (Cylon) and Helo (?), Cally (?) and Tyrol (Cylon). So you have both 2 known male Cylons and 2 known female Cylons involved. With equal numbers, it impossible to argue one way or the other whether the males have to be Cylons or not. Same goes with the females.

[Libran_luv]

Just a quick response to Ranvir, the equal numbers don't take into account that we know for certain that Cally is human, and that we don't know that Helo is not a Cylon.

We know Cally is not a Cylon because she's dead by the time D'Anna arrives on Galactica and is ready to identify the FF. D'Anna only identifies 4, leaving one hanging, but essentially implying that one is remains, alive and well.

Cally not being a Cylon is important simply because it means for a baby to come from at least one Cylon parent, the mother does not have to be Cylon. However, we ~do~ know that at least two of the babies had Cylon fathers. And since we don't know for sure that Helo is not a Cylon, it leaves it open.

Let's not forget that Six/Caprica had sex with Gaius Baltar plenty of times (as did D'Anna), and neither Cylon women became pregnant. Perhaps because he's all too human.

[ranvir]

Keep in mind that Baltar is not in the business of making babies. So I'm sure he/they used protection. Maybe the fact that he didn't get Caprica or D'Anna pregnant has nothing to do with humanity and everything to do with condoms.

Technically, we don't know that Cally isn't a Cylon. If anything, I think that D'Anna's comments about the 5th not being on board lends credence to a view that has a dead person as the final skinjob, although it is by no means definite proof. My point is merely that nothing is certain and you can't make a deduction that assumes certainties where there are none. But your idea is interesting and it may be right. Who knows?

[Libran_luv]

Fair enough ;-)

[Jason1975]

I do wonder how people can simply dismiss the idea that Boomer can’t be the fifth simply because she is a cylon. How could Anders et al be the final four if they were human?

I am not dismissing it beacuse she is a cylon. My theory is that the missing seventh model cylon is the fifth cylon resurrected. I just not dismissing what Caprica Six said to Roslin in 'He that Believeth in Me'.

I want to argue in a general logical supposition as opposed to very detailed and assumed technical science fiction babble on downloads and possible secret imbedded ff orders hidden inside….

okay.

We know that the FF are different from the cylons. We are all coming to understand that humans and cylons are overlapping and the differences minute. How can we put limitations without knowing the full limitations of the FF? We can't! I don't think we can assume they can fly or throw fireballs but within the mythology of BSG it's not such a stretch. If we can’t put limitations on the FF then the idea that Boomer can’t be the Fifth fail because we simply don’t know how different the fifth is and their limitations. We are left to the idea that it is possible and NOT impossible. Couple that with all the other conditions met for being the FF…I think we have a very compelling case.

I disagree that Boomer is not even a cylon. I think that argument is used to eradicate the “Boomer can’t be the fifth because she is a cylon.” IMO I believe Boomer to be an 8 like any other 8. She shot Adama because her cylon programming. She is just like any other 8 until she sees the light..or hears the music or is “turned on” to her true self – see the other four where they did everything that humans would do – kill and hate cylons and even kill their most cherished wife because she collaborated with a cylon. The idea here is that the FF all act and cruise in their normal set life until activated. Boomer could be liken to a double agent who in the end works actually works for a third party when she is “activated” and in the meantime works diligently for her “side”. Okay kinda weak analogy but you get the gist of my argument for her behaving what and a cylon would.

In 'Faith', The hybrid said, the missing Three will be used to find the Five, who come from the home of the Thirteenth Tribe. So the final five came from the thirteeth colony. So tell me how do you think Tigh, Anders, Foster, and Tyrol was inserted into the human population of the 12 colonies?

An aside before I came to realize Boomer was the Fifth. Many of us had this romantic idea that Boomer would eventually get back with Tyrol and that she was merely playing Cavel and would eventually come back to humanity and or the rebel cylons – since it was said Boomer was to have a big role in season 4. This thought process eventually led to the realization that she is the fifth. It is a big role indeed!

I am playing Devil's Advocate here and may or may not be my own opinion. So, Jamie Bamber said that Dualla is going to be a big part of second half to