Who do you really *not* want to be the Final Cylon?

[Jeff O'Connor]

I was thinking about it earlier, and there have been a couple of stray things along the way that have led me to a certain dead character being the Final Cylon. And I was getting to thinking about it, and it's just someone I really, really hope isn't it. I mean, I don't seriously think it will be, but if it is, I'm going to want some damned fine execution, because otherwise it could kill the revelation for me entirely.

No, not Cally.

Ellen Tigh.

In the 'Last Supper Photo', wasn't the goblet supposed to belong to the 'missing cylon' according to one of those Sci-Fi promos? They could have been completely off their rockers, but lines does 'does an unholy married couple bear a sacred gift?' made me think Moore influenced their statements at least a tad.

Tigh killed Ellen with poison in a goblet, didn't he? Or was it some other kind of cup or glass? Either way, said goblet is near Tigh, isn't it?

Not to mention, everyone seems fairly sure of themselves that Tigh's voice is the one we hear in the Sci-Fi Channel mini-trailer for 4.5, and 'you're the Final Cylon' is pretty blunt. As I said in a separate thread, it could be a red herring -- he could say it but the person in question could have zero to do with him. Or he could be saying to someone very near and dear(ly departed) to him.

Gods, help me. I really hope not.

So who for you are you rooting against? More obvious ones I'm hoping against would be any of the leading five characters (Adama, Roslin, Lee, Kara and Baltar) although Lee I would be much more open toward, after having read that whole schpiel from Joe. It would be an interesting turn, and Jamie Bamber's openness about enjoying such a twist in his recent interview add a little more compelling pseudo-evidence.

Other than that, really, anyone else who is dead I'd hope against, though it being someone like Zak Adama wouldn't be half-bad. Gaeta and Dualla, and Zarek and Cottle, I'm also against, which really doesn't leave us with very many options that we know about.

[genji2000]

They could have been completely off their rockers, but lines does 'does an unholy married couple bear a sacred gift?'

Can you please clarify that sentence and also include a link as a reference? I've never heard that.

Yes Ellen Tigh is the worst choice, and has been discussed, so I hope Aaron's (? not sure if it was him) statement that all the internet speculation is way off-beam takes account of her.

Like the Boomer thing though, the fundamental reasoning of one model being able to download into another model's body probably holds true for Ellen and a Six. However, we know this is Caprica Six, and there's so much more circumstantial evidence for Boomer. If Ellen were to be the Final Cylon then we could reasonably assume that the three week gap in her existence between the attack on the colonies and her appearance in the fleet (which ship was it again?) indicated a death and resurrection, yet she came back as Ellen Tigh, not as a Six (unless it was a Six with a hell of a disguise - not criticising Kate Vernon btw: she has fantastic legs). We'd also have to assume that Cavil would have got her pregnant.

I'd be really disappointed if it was her.

[Xenon242]

- Ellen Tigh

- Cally

- Dualla

A tart, a neurotic whinger and a namby-pamby wet noodle. It doesn't get any worse than that, folks.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

- Ellen Tigh

- Cally

- Dualla

A tart, a neurotic whinger and a namby-pamby wet noodle. It doesn't get any worse than that, folks.

Ditto the above.

I think every minor character (Seelix, Hot Dog, Racetrack, Cottle etc.) would be disappoint as well for the "Final Cylon".

Any dead character comes to mind to.

I really am at a loss as to who it is at this point—which is probably the reason why the writers threw in D'Anna's monkey wrench of a "revelation".

I do have the feeling that we've been "punk'd". Won't know for, oh, 7 to 9 months. :mad:

[5th Cylon]

i want the final cylon to have great significance, so it does suck if the final cylon is not anybody in that last supper picture, unless of coarse they can come up with a really good story(like the Boomer theory).

In terms of who i would be dissapointed with in order


Cally
Dualla
Romo
Gaeta (my actual pick for who it will be)
Ellen Tigh
Cottle
Zarek (although they could come up with a great story for him becuase he was in the last BG show and it could be something about time repeating itself)

basically any of the secondary cast(like i said my mind can change if they give a good background story, but as of now they all would be letdowns)

[Jason1975]

Here are some that I do not want to be the last cylon.



Cally
Seelix
Any of the Marines
Zac Adama
Mother of Lee Adama
Joseph Adama
Billy
Elosha
Starbuck's Mother
Battlestar Galactica
Starbuck's Viper
Head Characters
Hera
Little Nick
The unborn child of Tigh and Caprica Six
Anybody that does not have speaking role


If they tell a good story for anybody else and give reasons for what other characters said is wrong, I will be okay with.

[genji2000]

Here are some that I do not want to be the last cylon.



...
Anybody that does not have speaking role


If they tell a good story for anybody else and give reasons for what other characters said is wrong, I will be okay with.

The tattooed pilot had a line of dialogue once. Or was it a soliloquy?

[genji2000]

Zoe Graystone.
Kendra Shaw.
Any other dead or non-existent character.

[Teknopathetik]

Zoe greystone would suck BUT would sell caprica. Zoe is probably the headvoice. It could make sense to have the first cylon trying to create a new race. having Zoe as the final 5 would suck balls. I can accept her only as headvoice.

[genji2000]

Zoe greystone would suck BUT

You missed off the final 'T'.

[pagad]

I will be disappointed if it's not Lee Adama. Not because that's who I'd like it to be but because I can't honestly think of any other characters that would work.

[timbo]

So what exactly does she suck - is it balls or butt? Can we be clearer please people.

[Jamie]

Anybody who is not more important/shocking than Tigh would be a let down because then I would rather that they had him as the final and TBH I am hardly gonna go WOW when Cottle steps forward as the Final Cylon im more likely to go WHO?

[Osprey]

why are we allowing saul to set the standard for "prominence?" 'cause if we do, by "rank" we've eliminated everyone but bill, laura, lee, and tom z.! [i suppose one could argue gaius would still fit as well] and after revelations i'm no longer buying into lee, and even less so for bill and laura. that leaves tom and gaius; so, imo, **anyone other** than either of them wil be a disapointment!
:-)

/fwiw, i'm not buying into the whole boomer thing either

[genji2000]

why are we allowing saul to set the standard for "prominence?" 'cause if we do, by "rank" we've eliminated everyone but bill, laura, lee, and tom z.! [i suppose one could argue gaius would still fit as well] and after revelations i'm no longer buying into lee, and even less so for bill and laura. that leaves tom and gaius; so, imo, **anyone other** than either of them wil be a disapointment!
:-)

/fwiw, i'm not buying into the whole boomer thing either

Is it 'rank' that is used to set his stall? I think it's patriotism and racism (being anti-Cylon), and that's fed by the superb writing and acting that goes into his character. I think that's why he was such a shock as a Cylon, not because he was the XO.

/fwiw I 'love' the way you always deliver a little bon mot before hitting Submit.

:-)

[thevarrior]

I will be disappointed if it's not Lee Adama. Not because that's who I'd like it to be but because I can't honestly think of any other characters that would work.

Then... what... they switched him at birth? There is no good explanation or it being Lee Adama. At all. We know that from the start he was Admiral Adama's son.

[Jamie]

It was the way he was established throughout the series that made the shock so effective not his rank. If its somebody we know next to nothing about and struggles to get one line an episode and 30 seconds of screentime then I will be very disappointed. Personally im of the opinion that at this point any of the main characters could be a cylon still.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Then... what... they switched him at birth? There is no good explanation or it being Lee Adama. At all. We know that from the start he was Admiral Adama's son.

Well, here's the thing... it's crazy, but it may work:

Adama's conceive a child. Bill Adama gets sent off to a mission, can't make it to the birth or whatever.

Somewhere along the way, Carolanne loses the baby (perhaps due to her fondness for alcohol). In shame, or for fear of Bill Adama, she finds a baby to adopt that would pass the Adama litmus test. The baby happens to be a member of the Final Five.

As I said, just a crazy thought. Then again, it's no crazier than someone downloading their personality into a computer... or a dead person coming back from the dead with a shiny new Viper.

[Xenon242]

Well, here's the thing... it's crazy, but it may work:

Adama's conceive a child. Bill Adama gets sent off to a mission, can't make it to the birth or whatever.

Somewhere along the way, Carolanne loses the baby (perhaps due to her fondness for alcohol). In shame, or for fear of Bill Adama, she finds a baby to adopt that would pass the Adama litmus test. The baby happens to be a member of the Final Five.

As I said, just a crazy thought. Then again, it's no crazier than someone downloading their personality into a computer... or a dead person coming back from the dead with a shiny new Viper.

Allow me to poke a hole in this one ... ;)

Bill's conversation with Kat as she was dying in her sickbay cot in The Passage seemed to imply he was present for the birth of both his sons, despite him focussing on Zak for the story.

[genji2000]

Adama's conceive a child... Somewhere along the way, Carolanne loses the baby (perhaps due to her fondness for alcohol). In shame, or for fear of Bill Adama, she finds a baby to adopt that would pass the Adama litmus test. The baby happens to be a member of the Final Five.

Or a man convincing his wife that a child who is a human/jackal hybrid is actually her son. And she was definitely there at the birth. It's not beyond the reams of fiction but could they cover it without swathes of exposition?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Allow me to poke a hole in this one ... ;)

Bill's conversation with Kat as she was dying in her sickbay cot in The Passage seemed to imply he was present for the birth of both his sons, despite him focussing on Zak for the story.

Yeah, that seems to be the implication... but would Adama say, "though, I wasn't present for Lee's birth... so, now you know?"

Doubtful. There's just not enough information from that statement—one way or the other—to prove his presence during the birth, or lack thereof.

[Jeff O'Connor]

Can you please clarify that sentence and also include a link as a reference? I've never heard that.

I haven't been able to dig anything up just yet, but hopefully I'll have more time later -- I only had a moment before someone else wanted the computer for the time being.

To clarify, though, it's part of an advertisement campaign on the Sci-Fi Channel which aired throughout the ten new episodes at all times of day and night; said ads would have a picture of the 'Last Supper Photo' and zoom in an out, stating various cryptic things of questionable authenticity.

One such thing was the zoom-in on Helo and Athena, with the question... in question.

[genji2000]

Well Caprica Six has as much chance of being the Final Cylon as Boomer, and Tigh sees her as Ellen when things start getting smooth between them.

[Martyr of the Cause]

I don't want to see the Final Five be anyone who wasn't in the final scene of Revelations. There are minor, recurring, and dead characters out there who would make terrible candidates for the Final Cylon in my book. What clearly separates those characters from the main ones who (in my eyes) are the only ones the Final Cylon could be is that they were not important enough to get even a little appearance at the mid-season cliffhanger.

[pagad]

Well, here's the thing... it's crazy, but it may work:

Adama's conceive a child. Bill Adama gets sent off to a mission, can't make it to the birth or whatever.

Somewhere along the way, Carolanne loses the baby (perhaps due to her fondness for alcohol). In shame, or for fear of Bill Adama, she finds a baby to adopt that would pass the Adama litmus test. The baby happens to be a member of the Final Five.

As I said, just a crazy thought. Then again, it's no crazier than someone downloading their personality into a computer... or a dead person coming back from the dead with a shiny new Viper.

Now we're going into weird territory...:)

I don't think that even a baby-swap-at-birth is neccessary. All you'd need to do is kidnap Lee and program a Cylon-clone with his memories.

In any case these Cylons are fundamentally different...so even a real human parent may not necessarily disqualify you from being a Cylon.

Adama has known Tigh for 30 years...with that in mind Lee's being a Cylon wouldn't really be that odd.

[genji2000]

I don't want to see the Final Five be anyone who wasn't in the final scene of Revelations. There are minor, recurring, and dead characters out there who would make terrible candidates for the Final Cylon in my book. What clearly separates those characters from the main ones who (in my eyes) are the only ones the Final Cylon could be is that they were not important enough to get even a little appearance at the mid-season cliffhanger.

So you'd be happier with Dualla than Boomer?

[genji2000]

Now we're going into weird territory...:)

I don't think that even a baby-swap-at-birth is neccessary. All you'd need to do is kidnap Lee and program a Cylon-clone with his memories.

That's not what Cylons are. They're not clones of real people.

In any case these Cylons are fundamentally different...so even a real human parent may not necessarily disqualify you from being a Cylon.

Yeah it would. Cylons (including the Final Five) are Cylons. They're not of woman born. They're synthetic life forms.

Adama has known Tigh for 30 years...with that in mind Lee's being a Cylon wouldn't really be that odd.

Lee being a clone of Lee would be odd though.

[Starstruck]

That's not what Cylons are. They're not clones of real people.



Yeah it would. Cylons (including the Final Five) are Cylons. They're not of woman born. They're synthetic life forms.



Lee being a clone of Lee would be odd though.


We don't know what the final five are. We don't know if they're built, born, or magicked into existence. Your own Boomer theory has clones in it if I understand it right, making the 8's clones of Boomer.

[Xenon242]

Your own Boomer theory has clones in it if I understand it right, making the 8's clones of Boomer.

They're only clones in the very strictest definition of the word though; they're manufactured from a template.

[genji2000]

We don't know what the final five are. We don't know if they're built, born, or magicked into existence. Your own Boomer theory has clones in it if I understand it right, making the 8's clones of Boomer.

They're not clones. The Seven model (Boomer) uses the Eight bodies to host its consciousness.

Clones are "grown in a petri dish" - no downloads. A clone would be an identical copy of the embryo, and would be born. No Cylons are born - their bodies are fully matured when they're brought online. Also Cylons are synthetic. Clones are completely organic (can you tell I don't know what I'm talking about? Not really sure how the cloning process is conducted, but I know they're not synthetic).

We do know the Final Five are "full" Cylons, which means they're not clones.

They're only clones in the very strictest definition of the word though; they're manufactured from a template.

Well, if you put it like that, yes Cylons are identical physical copies, like clones, but they're not 'cloned'.

[Starstruck]

They're not clones. The Seven model (Boomer) uses the Eight bodies to host its consciousness.

Clones are "grown in a petri dish" - no downloads. A clone would be an identical copy of the embryo, and would be born. No Cylons are born - their bodies are fully matured when they're brought online. Also Cylons are synthetic. Clones are completely organic (can you tell I don't know what I'm talking about? Not really sure how the cloning process is conducted, but I know they're not synthetic).

We do know the Final Five are "full" Cylons, which means they're not clones.




Well, if you put it like that, yes Cylons are identical physical copies, like clones, but they're not 'cloned'.'

To me, tihs is just slicing hairs. We don't know the true nature of the final five, so we can't eliminate people based on that nature. The Lee baby cylon theory is just as potentially possible as some machine soul inhabiting an 8. And incidentally, what is so cylon about being a soul that can inhabit bodies? That seems to be the opposite of a machine to me.

[genji2000]

'

To me, tihs is just slicing hairs. We don't know the true nature of the final five, so we can't eliminate people based on that nature. The Lee baby cylon theory is just as potentially possible as some machine soul inhabiting an 8. And incidentally, what is so cylon about being a soul that can inhabit bodies? That seems to be the opposite of a machine to me.

No it's not splitting hairs. It's a critical difference. Cloning is the biological reproduction of an identical human being. Cylons are synthetic. They're manufactured.

Nobody said anything about a soul, if you mean Boomer downloading into a Eight body. They use technology to transfer their consciousnesses into new synthetic bodies. Though ever since the Miniseries the show has asked what a 'soul' is; do Cylons have souls? Do humans have souls? Does god exist? Did mankind lose its soul when it created the Cylon? Did it become god?

[pagad]

You cannot accuse my belief of Lee being the final Cylon of being absurd if you think it's Boomer, 'mkay? :D

[Jason1975]

You cannot accuse my belief of Lee being the final Cylon of being absurd if you think it's Boomer, 'mkay? :D

Whoever, the final cylon is, RDM and the writers have to do a lot of explaining why they chose that character.

[genji2000]

I don't. I haven't.

Believing Lee is the final Cylon is not the same as suggesting that a clone of him makes him a Cylon. The former is a possibiity (well actually I think it's completely impossible, but many people agree with you), the latter is absurd.

[Jeff O'Connor]

Just to throw in my ninety-nine cents plus tax, I think Lee and Boomer have nearly equal odds, so I'd definitely say both theories are relatively plausible. Though I'd personally be more impressed were it Boomer and such an explanation than if Lee were cloned or somesuch. I don't think that's how the Final Five will end up working out.

[Xenon242]

No it's not splitting hairs. It's a critical difference. Cloning is the biological reproduction of an identical human being. Cylons are synthetic. They're manufactured.

Nobody said anything about a soul, if you mean Boomer downloading into a Eight body. They use technology to transfer their consciousnesses into new synthetic bodies. Though ever since the Miniseries the show has asked what a 'soul' is; do Cylons have souls? Do humans have souls? Does god exist? Did mankind lose its soul when it created the Cylon? Did it become god?

I'll be honest, I don't really accept the notion that humanoid Cylons — S7 or F5 — are synthetic, as such. Manufactured or 'grown in a petri dish', as you say, yes, but I don't buy they're synthetic. What we see when we see the 'skin jobs' is RDM tapping into tried-and-true SF notions of biorobotics, similar to the Replicants in Blade Runner or the Bioroids in Masamune Shirow's Appleseed graphic novels.

In both cases, the beings are sentient (more or less, they've got restrictions) and identical to humans in every way, except for certain aspects of their physiology — like Cylons. I don't know how the Replicants came to look as they do but, if memory serves, Shirow's Bioroids are cloned from humans to provide a basic physical template to which enhancements are added. And often each Bioroid will have a twin or triplet with radically different personalities from its siblings, making them unique individuals. But, they're still clones from a human source.

As such these Bioroids can be regarded as clones not just in the strictest sense of the word, but very fundamentally, and I'm going to put it to you that humanoid Cylons must have had at least physical templates from which to come (whoever designed and built them).

Who were the people that looked like Saul Tigh, Natalie, Galen Tyrol, et al to provide the Cylons the physical template? Who knows, it's immaterial. The fact that Cylons can breed with humans points to humanoid Cylons being much more than synthetic, as the Cylons would never be able to synthesise compatible reproductive systems, they would have had to have been provided from a human source via cloning, in my view.

[genji2000]

I'll be honest, I don't really accept the notion that humanoid Cylons — S7 or F5 — are synthetic, as such.

That's unfortunate because that's precisely what they are. Being synthetic is what makes them Cylons. If they weren't synthetic (e.g. if they were clones) then they'd be human.

Manufactured

= synthetic (Cylon)

or 'grown in a petri dish',

= cloned (human)

as you say, yes, but I don't buy they're synthetic. What we see when we see the 'skin jobs' is RDM tapping into tried-and-true SF notions of biorobotics, similar to the Replicants in Blade Runner or the Bioroids in Masamune Shirow's Appleseed graphic novels.

In both cases, the beings are sentient (more or less, they've got restrictions) and identical to humans in every way, except for certain aspects of their physiology — like Cylons. I don't know how the Replicants came to look as they do but, if memory serves, Shirow's Bioroids are cloned from humans to provide a basic physical template to which enhancements are added. And often each Bioroid will have a twin or triplet with radically different personalities from its siblings, making them unique individuals. But, they're still clones from a human source.

Interesting but (forgive me) irrelevant. Cylons are not Replicants.

As such these Bioroids can be regarded as clones not just in the strictest sense of the word, but very fundamentally, and I'm going to put it to you that humanoid Cylons must have had at least physical templates from which to come (whoever designed and built them).

Of course, but not based on any specific human being. By making this proposition one sentence, you're jumping from something which is not a Cylon being a clone to suggesting that Cylons are sort of cloned. They're not. They are physically identical, yes, but that's because they come off a production line. It's like saying GI Joe is a clone of a really little soldier.

Who were the people that looked like Saul Tigh, Natalie, Galen Tyrol, et al to provide the Cylons the physical template?

No one. Ever. There were never any humans who looked exactly like that. They're not clones.

Who knows, it's immaterial.

It's not. It's critical. They're not clones.

The fact that Cylons can breed with humans points to humanoid Cylons being much more than synthetic, as the Cylons would never be able to synthesise compatible reproductive systems,

That's exactly what they did. But they could never get them to work. It may be because humans have something the Cylons didn't get quite right but it's far more likely to be that love (chemical reaction) triggers some sort of process enabling the females to conceive.

they would have had to have been provided from a human source via cloning, in my view.

Have you watched Razor? That illustrates the micro-level examinations and experiments that Cylons conducted on captive humans (not to mention the prisoners they took back to the Cylon homeworld) to completely understand the cellular level operations of the human body, which they then replicated synthetically.

I hope this doesn't come off as too belligerent, but, really, they're not clones.

[Xenon242]

No offense taken, I think there's room enough in the notion of Clone v Non-clone for two divergent opinions to sit fairly solidly.

Unfortunately, I never did see Razor, I have to grab the DVD, so maybe it would go a long way to changing my opinion on the topic, I don't know yet.

[genji2000]

No offense taken, I think there's room enough in the notion of Clone v Non-clone for two divergent opinions to sit fairly solidly.

Unfortunately, I never did see Razor, I have to grab the DVD, so maybe it would go a long way to changing my opinion on the topic, I don't know yet.

Yeah Razor's vital viewing.

[pagad]

= synthetic (Cylon)



= cloned (human)

Humanoid Cylon models are essentially biological. The whole mechanical aspect of them is undermined somewhat by the fact that they are genuine living beings (unlike, say, a machine animated by a chip - e.g. a Centurion).

By clone I meant a manufactured Cylon body that was basically Lee with Lee's memories and mind. It's still a living being, though, and therefore not really a synthetic.

Pointing out that I'm wrong because of that is just pedantry imo :)

[genji2000]

Humanoid Cylon models are essentially biological. The whole mechanical aspect of them is undermined somewhat by the fact that they are genuine living beings (unlike, say, a machine animated by a chip - e.g. a Centurion).

By clone I meant a manufactured Cylon body that was basically Lee with Lee's memories and mind. It's still a living being, though, and therefore not really a synthetic.

Pointing out that I'm wrong because of that is just pedantry imo :)

OK maybe I'm missing something but to me it's quite clear. There are no Cylon bodies that are a match for any specific human being, not Lee, not Tigh, not Kara, not Boomer.

Cylons' are synthetic at a molecular level. Their cells are synthetic, their blood is synthetic, their eyes are synthetic, their skin is synthetic. This is not pedantic. This a (the) major difference between humans and Cylons. Their synthetic blood, hair, sweat, menstrual cycles all operate precisely as a human being's, but they are synthetic. Neither is the difference between manufacturing and cloning pedantic. It's a major reason to discount Lee as the Final Cylon.

[Starstruck]

OK maybe I'm missing something but to me it's quite clear. There are no Cylon bodies that are a match for any specific human being, not Lee, not Tigh, not Kara, not Boomer.

Cylons' are synthetic at a molecular level. Their cells are synthetic, their blood is synthetic, their eyes are synthetic, their skin is synthetic. This is not pedantic. This a (the) major difference between humans and Cylons. Their synthetic blood, hair, sweat, menstrual cycles all operate precisely as a human being's, but they are synthetic. Neither is the difference between manufacturing and cloning pedantic. It's a major reason to discount Lee as the Final Cylon.

And you know this how? Humans created centurions, which are entirely synthetic. Centurions started experiments on humans to create the hybrids we know. These are obviously real live humans rigged with machine parts or perhaps some hybrid synthetic/organic being that was grown in the goo from petri dish human parts (organic) and machine parts (synthetic.)

Now, we don't know exactly how they got from this experiment, which we are told they abandoned, to the humanoid cylons we know and love. We DO know that their brains work like programs, very sophisticated programs, and that their consciousnesses can be downloaded into other bodies. We do not know HOW this works. We do not know if their bodies are organic or synthetic. The fact that they are grown in goo would suggest that the makeup of their bodies is at least partly organic like the hybrids.

This would also explain how humans and cylons can breed, how Hera's blood looked almost identical, but slightly different from that of a human under microscope, and why Cylons bleed, cry, have sex, etc. They may not be of natural origin, but it seems to me that they ARE organic, as in, made of carbon.

[genji2000]

And you know this how? Humans created centurions, which are entirely synthetic. Centurions started experiments on humans to create the hybrids we know. These are obviously real live humans rigged with machine parts or perhaps some hybrid synthetic/organic being that was grown in the goo from petri dish human parts (organic) and machine parts (synthetic.)

Now, we don't know exactly how they got from this experiment, which we are told they abandoned, to the humanoid cylons we know and love. We DO know that their brains work like programs, very sophisticated programs, and that their consciousnesses can be downloaded into other bodies. We do not know HOW this works. We do not know if their bodies are organic or synthetic. The fact that they are grown in goo would suggest that the makeup of their bodies is at least partly organic like the hybrids.

This would also explain how humans and cylons can breed, how Hera's blood looked almost identical, but slightly different from that of a human under microscope, and why Cylons bleed, cry, have sex, etc. They may not be of natural origin, but it seems to me that they ARE organic, as in, made of carbon.

OK, the fact that you and pagad and Xenon are at odds with my interpretation is causing me to doubt it. Like I said, maybe I've missed something. If I have then I apologise for being so anal about this.

I 'know' this from various descriptions of what the humanoid Cylons are, from the Battlestar wiki, wikipedia, various interviews, a number of books, a bit of speculation and extrapolation, and most importantly dialogue within the show.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_agent

There is an overriding caveat to the identification of the physiological nature of the humanoid Cylons: "The creation of the humanoid Cylon is left to speculation based on series events."

Some other points

Cylons biologically mimic human form.
The "evolution" is obviously a planned architectural change from the mechanical to the biomechanical for the inherent Cylon design.
Humanoid Cylons are visually indistinguishable from humans, down to the cellular level, but not completely at a molecular level.
The Cylons tested numerous methods of sexual reproduction, yet these failed due to a known flaw in their design.
RDM: "There is no original human Sharon. The idea is not that there was likely an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these models of Cylon were sort of developed out of their own study of us."
None of the humanoid Cylons were ever an actual human.


Chemically I don't guess what their composition is. They may be carbon-based, as are some plastics. They are 'organic' inasmuch as they age and can physically change (e.g. Athena's resistance to the virus that causes Lymphocytic encephalitis in A Measure of Salvation) in other ways due to external influence, but at the point of creation they are manufactured, that makes them synthetic.

To me anyway.

[Starstruck]

Chemically I don't guess what their composition is. They may be carbon-based, as are some plastics. They are 'organic' inasmuch as they age and can physically change (e.g. Athena's resistance to the virus that causes Lymphocytic encephalitis in A Measure of Salvation) in other ways due to external influence, but at the point of creation they are manufactured, that makes them synthetic.

To me anyway.

Okay, fair enough, but that is not the definition of synthetic. ;)

[Wouter]

The problem with Lee is that he is clearly in the fleet as of "Revelations", and D'Anna has seen him from very close in that time. Clearly she does not think he is the final Cylon, and she does seem to be the true expert in the matter. Tigh and Tory got recognized by her, for sure, and didn't her gaze wander to Anders and Tyrol as well?

So, why would she not recognize Lee as final one?

As genji points out, it also seems that the cylons (normally at least) don't clone existing humans, but artifically grow their own bodies which are fully adult by the time they're manufacturerd, at least for the seven.

Since at least one member of the five can and does age (this could simply be a matter of an option in the BIOS, so to speak, of any Cylon), it's possible they were introduced at a much younger age but they probably still weren't born. It's hard to see how they could be Cylons if born, unless the parents were also Cylons.

[genji2000]

The problem with Lee is that he is clearly in the fleet as of "Revelations", and D'Anna has seen him from very close in that time. Clearly she does not think he is the final Cylon, and she does seem to be the true expert in the matter. Tigh and Tory got recognized by her, for sure, and didn't her gaze wander to Anders and Tyrol as well?

Doesn't she say there are only four in the fleet before she travels to the Galactica and meets Lee?

So, why would she not recognize Lee as final one?

As genji points out, it also seems that the cylons (normally at least) don't clone existing humans, but artifically grow their own bodies which are fully adult by the time they're manufacturerd, at least for the seven.

Since at least one member of the five can and does age (this could simply be a matter of an option in the BIOS, so to speak, of any Cylon),

:lol:

it's possible they were introduced at a much younger age but they probably still weren't born. It's hard to see how they could be Cylons if born, unless the parents were also Cylons.

I also think their complete lack of understanding over Hera's illness shows that they only have adult models, but it's a bit of a reach.

[Wouter]

Doesn't she say there are only four in the fleet before she travels to the Galactica and meets Lee?
Yes, and she doesn't change her mind once she sees him. She already knew something about the fifth Cylon before she set foot on Galactica (having seen her already is a good explanation).

How do those who think it's Lee explain that?

That the 7 only have adult models seems a given; their lack of experience with children shows in Hera's illness and in Cap-6's fascination with a baby in the miniseries.

The 5 are "fundamentally different" though, so who knows what those differences are :devil:

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

The problem with Lee is that he is clearly in the fleet as of "Revelations", and D'Anna has seen him from very close in that time. Clearly she does not think he is the final Cylon, and she does seem to be the true expert in the matter. Tigh and Tory got recognized by her, for sure, and didn't her gaze wander to Anders and Tyrol as well?

So, why would she not recognize Lee as final one?

Well, true. However, I'm not convinced of the Boomer BS theory either. They're going to have to explain that one in a more complex way than any "baby Lee" theory, which is at least plausible.

(For the record, I couldn't care less who is the final Cylon at this point. None of the theories make sense given the present information we have available... Which is a good thing, IMHO.)

Consider three things:

1. The Final Five can age. As Adama points out to Tigh, Tigh had hair when they met. Tigh was young. That means Cylons can age. (Which some fans doubted.)
2. Since the Final Five can age—and given the age of the remainder of the Watchtower Four—they would have had to be children when they returned to the Colonies. (Assuming that all the Final Five came to the Colonies at roughly the same time.) And that point brings up a lot more questions than there are answers.
3. The only thing keeping Three alive at this point is what she knows. She's not going to put all her eggs in one basket. Remember, the very Cylons that freed her from the Hub also voted for her to be boxed. As she herself admitted, she cannot trust anyone, including her fellow Cylon.

Also, here's the kicker. Lee Adama is president of the Twelve Colonies. Outing him would work against her, seeing as he would be the one to later broker the peace between the humans and the Cylons...

Further, we have absolutely no idea what else she knows. She clearly is in tune with some force in the BSG universe—the same force that lead her to uncover the lie of Hera's death and, later, the Five.

There's a lot of 'splaining that still needs to be done.

But I digress. Anyway, the "fundamental difference", therefore, lies in how the Final Five are the most similar to humanity than the S7. They don't have bodies lying in wait on some resurrection ship; they're a different breed of Cylon entirely. There are 12 models—just not all of them are universally the same as we initially believed.

As genji points out, it also seems that the cylons (normally at least) don't clone existing humans, but artifically grow their own bodies which are fully adult by the time they're manufacturerd, at least for the seven.

Since at least one member of the five can and does age (this could simply be a matter of an option in the BIOS, so to speak, of any Cylon), it's possible they were introduced at a much younger age but they probably still weren't born. It's hard to see how they could be Cylons if born, unless the parents were also Cylons.

The humanoid Cylons are virtually indistinguishable from humans, down to the cellular level and the plumbing. Hence the reason for the Baltar Blinky Cylon Detector in the first place.

Therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are human with some Cylon options. They consider themselves having taken human form (leading back to that whole "A Measure of Salvation" clusterfrak) and eschewing their cybernetic roots.

[Stairway]

I really do not want Lee, Adama or Roslin as the final cylons. They're just too good. I wouldn't like to see Starbuck either but it wouldn't be so bad as Lee.

[Xenon242]

For the record, I couldn't care less who is the final Cylon at this point. None of the theories make sense given the present information we have available... Which is a good thing, IMHO.

Agreed. This is the main reason I've been staying out of the vast majority of speculation threads, or simply adding a comment here or there, without stating my opinion, or making the case for it.

I have my own thoughts about who it is, but it's not based on any sort of long thought or analyses, just reading a few theories and going with my gut.

But, then again, I'm also notorious for thinking something 'really cool', saying so, and not offering anything insight as to why I think that particular something is really cool. :D

PS: I couldn't help but correct you there ... ;)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

PS: I couldn't help but correct you there ... ;)

Thanks for the correction. It's all a stream of urin—ahem, consciousness thing. :D

[genji2000]

PS: I couldn't help but correct you there ... ;)

I think "I could care less" is ironic, like "to coin a phrase" or "cheap at half the price". You say it when you couldn't care less. I prefer "I could care more".

[Xenon242]

I think "I could care less" is ironic, like "to coin a phrase". You say it when you couldn't care less. I prefer "I could care more".

You're a 'glass is half-full' kind of guy, aren't you? :D

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

You're a 'glass is half-full' kind of guy, aren't you? :D

If you cut the glass in half, was the glass, then, ever half of anything? :lol:

[genji2000]

You're a 'glass is half-full' kind of guy, aren't you? :D

Yeah. That f**ker spilled my drink.

[Wouter]

3. The only thing keeping Three alive at this point is what she knows. She's not going to put all her eggs in one basket. Remember, the very Cylons that freed her from the Hub also voted for her to be boxed. As she herself admitted, she cannot trust anyone, including her fellow Cylon.

We don't know if the vote was unanimous (at least 4 models need to have voted for; 2 could be against). In any case, it's clear the rebels view it as a mistake now. I don't agree that her knowledge is all that's keeping Three alive; she is leading the rebels Cylons and she has proven her worth by unveiling at least 4 Cylons (AFAIK she has named the 5th to the other cylons as well). Why would you expect the other Cylons to say "thanks for the info, now we will shoot you since you we don't need your knowledge anymore" after she has unveiled the last model as well? The danger just isn't there; the other Cylons won't kill her unless they get in a conflict like Cavil and Natalie did (so, a provoked conflict). After all, before 3 started to look for the faces of the FF she didn't have any special knowledge and she wasn't killed then either (except when trying to kill Anders). I think she was exaggerating a lot to Roslin; she was already planning to take the reins of the rebels into her own hands and made Roslin believe she was going to come with her willingly.

Lee as the final one has a triple problem: he doesn't conform to D'Anna's "5th is not in the fleet" (you gave a possible explanation for that, but I'm not buying it), RDM would need to outright lie about it as he is in the last supper and one of the primary humans and you need to explain the baby switching thing. And why wasn't he activated at the same time as the other four, he was on Galactica to get the signal? It would be a dramatic reveal though, that's true.

I do agree that whoever it is, the writers will need to explain a lot. No candidate is without major problems, other than perhaps Seelix (but she's pretty minor as a character).

[hewkii9]

Either Adama ,Starbuck, and humanity.

Neither Adama would make sense. If it's Bill, then how come the Cylons are after Hera and not Lee, who would logically [if Bill were a Cylon] be the actual first of God's new generation of children? BTW, for that same reason [God's new generation] I don't want it to be either Helo or Cally. And if it's Lee, how were the Cylons able to fit him so streamlessly into Bill's life?

I like Starbuck too much to think she should be a Cylon, really, don't have any evidence.

And humanity being the final Cylon is just a hackneyed stupid cop-out.

But Billy and Baltar weren't technically in the fleet, with Baltar on the basestar, and Billy being 'dead'.

[5th Cylon]

I like Starbuck too much to think she should be a Cylon, really, don't have any evidence.

I am the opposite, i really dislike Starbuck and find the only way they can possibly explain why she is so "special" or choosen is to have her somehow be a cylon(or her mother or father is a cylon). If that does happen, then i probably will lighten up a bit on her character, else i will think she is the ultimate "mary sue" if i ever saw one.

[genji2000]

I am the opposite, i really dislike Starbuck and find the only way they can possibly explain why she is so "special" or choosen is to have her somehow be a cylon(or her mother or father is a cylon). If that does happen, then i probably will lighten up a bit on her character, else i will think she is the ultimate "mary sue" if i ever saw one.

Dunno what a mary sue is but Kara was abused as a child. I lightened up on her during The Farm.

[5th Cylon]

Dunno what a mary sue is but Kara was abused as a child. I lightened up on her during The Farm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue



Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative) term used to describe a fictional character (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_character) who plays a major role in the plot on such a scale that suspension of disbelief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief) fails due to the character's traits, skills and abilities being tenuously or inadequately justified. Such a character is particularly characterized by overly idealized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal) and clichéd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clich%C3%A9) mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly—kind of an "author's pet" effect.

While she may have been abused as a child the fact she rose above it to become the greatest pilot in the unvierse would counteract that all while having a Han Solo complex

Basically if i am finding Mary Sue qualities of Starbuck

-she is key to finding earth
-best pilot on the Battlestar Galactica, always takes risks but never gets killed
-she breaks the rules constantly but always comes out on top(and everybody forgives her)
-only dates or has sex or has people gain interest in her who important(Cylons, adama, Baltar). I would have considered Samuel Anders to take away from this point up until the end of season 3, but that changed when he was revieled as one of the final 5 cylons(i should have guessed Starbuck doesn't date second rate characters).
-she is constantly refered to as having a greater destiny(mom and Leoben)
-beat all the odds to get where she is

I know people who don't agree with me will point out her "faults" but fact is she over comes all of them in unbelievable fashion all to often(which goes back to "breaking the rules...").

Basically Starbuck being a cylon or the child of one would at least negate some of the mary sue qualities of her and at least give a reason why she is so "special" in my eyes

[genji2000]

While she may have been abused as a child the fact she rose above it to become the greatest pilot in the unvierse would counteract that all while having a Han Solo complex

Gosh I never knew terms like that existed. Stock characters I know about. Mary Sue's I've never heard of.

I can see your point of view (I'm not especially a Kara fan), but I think suffering abuse as a child and burying it in one's psyche can lead one to achieve great things, but eventually the suffering is going to catch up with you and frak with you good style. Especially if you have a Leoben going on and on about it.

I suppose that (for fictional characters) the answer to that is that writers rely too much on childhood abuse, as if it's a stock reason for wild or obnoxious behaviour.

[5th Cylon]

Gosh I never knew terms like that existed. Stock characters I know about. Mary Sue's I've never heard of.

It's a term more often used for fanfics when people write characters that are so perfect they unrealistic(even ones that come from bad backgrounds who beat the odds). I wouldn't consider Starbuck 100% mary sue'ish, but she is close to crossing that imaginary line in my eyes. There is many things they can do in the final 12 episodes to knock her back a few steps as well(including some link to cylons).

[ranvir]

I don't quite understand why being a Cylon would "knock her back." It's not really a bad thing, is it? One of the main themes of the show, on my interpretation at least, is that no matter what your underlying constitution is, in the end you amount to your actions and beliefs. That's why the four FF we've seen so far (except Tori) have retained their previous identities, for the most part. The knowledge that they were Cylons didn't change who they were because they stayed true to who they believed themselves to be (e.g., Saul Tigh remained Saul Mother Frakkin' Tigh). Also, we have normal cylons, like Athena and Caprica, that show us that Cylons are just as capable of change as humans are. I think that's the point really: Cylons are fundamentally human.

Starbuck is kinda Mary Sue in a way, but she's also frakked up personally, which is where all her flaws come in.

[5th Cylon]

I don't quite understand why being a Cylon would "knock her back." It's not really a bad thing, is it?

It's not a bad thing, it's just her being a cylon could explain a few of the mary sue qualities i listed(not getting killed, best pilot, only a-listers dating her, why she is destined to find earth) therefor making her character more believable(then somebody who was just born on Caprica and all this fell on her)

[genji2000]

It's not a bad thing, it's just her being a cylon could explain a few of the mary sue qualities i listed(not getting killed, best pilot, only a-listers dating her, why she is destined to find earth) therefor making her character more believable(then somebody who was just born on Caprica and all this fell on her)

But the role of Herald of the Apocalypse is as important as the Final Five's isn't it? I mean if the sleepers' internal struggles are down to programming that they haven't embraced, why can't Kara's be down to a predetermined destiny that she hasn't yet understood?

[5th Cylon]

why can't Kara's be down to a predetermined destiny that she hasn't yet understood?

I guess i don't believe in fate :P

Everything happens for a reason or by dumb luck

[ranvir]

Everything happens for a reason

But it is contrary to the whole notion of Fate for things to happen randomly. If you believe in fate then events are predetermined in virtue of the fact that the unfolding of history is based fundamentally on reasons (things happen because of the state of the universe in conjunction with the laws of nature). So Fate is not invoking some stochastic process to expalin why Kara is the way she is... Instead Fate provides the ultimate answers and reasons to those sorts of questions.

...or by dumb luck

Well then why are you complaining? Kara is a Mary Sue because she's lucky, end of story :p.

In any case, I actually think Kara is a deeply flawed person. Yeah, she's a badass, but she's messed up big time.

Also, her being a FF might somewhat explain her special destiny. But then again, something has to set her apart from the other final five in that case (otherwise they would all have that special destiny). So we have to invoke her role as the "Harbinger of Death" or whatever anyway, just to explain her unique part in the story. It's not clear what being a Final Five would have to do with being the Harbinger of Death, or explaining why she is an ace pilot or what have you. Those are aspects of her as a person, not her status as a Cylon or human (for example, Tori is a FF Cylon but she's not an ace pilot or a Mary Sue, so why would that status explain Kara's talents and abilities)?

[LSOP]

Fate is definitely part of the BSG universe, IMO. Whatever "higher power" gave Karma, I mean Kara, her destiny, could have also given destinies to the final 5 at the moment of their conceptions. I know it's not sci-fi enough for some of you, but whatever.

[5th Cylon]

But it is contrary to the whole notion of Fate for things to happen randomly. If you believe in fate then events are predetermined in virtue of the fact that the unfolding of history is based fundamentally on reasons (things happen because of the state of the universe in conjunction with the laws of nature). So Fate is not invoking some stochastic process to expalin why Kara is the way she is... Instead Fate provides the ultimate answers and reasons to those sorts of questions.

When i say things happen for a reason i mean that if I decide i want something done it will get done. No bigger plan for the universe made it fate that i would get it done.

And examples is if there is a rock i want moved because it looks terrible on my lawn. I move it. The reason it was moved because i wanted it moved, it wasn't destined from the dawn of time that i would move it

[genji2000]

When i say things happen for a reason i mean that if I decide i want something done it will get done. No bigger plan for the universe made it fate that i would get it done.

And examples is if there is a rock i want moved because it looks terrible on my lawn. I move it. The reason it was moved because i wanted it moved, it wasn't destined from the dawn of time that i would move it

But maybe the rock's destiny is to be on your lawn and you're interfering with destiny. Or maybe its destiny is be on top of the pile of rocks you keep in your bedroom and by removing it from the lawn you're fulfilling its destiny.

I can't see how the Writers could get away with telling us within the show that the Cylon god is a reality, nor that the Lords of Kobol were actually gods (revered as gods, maybe). I don't think the story could handle that kind of flat statement. It needs to be left open to interpretation as it is in reality.

Do you think it will confirm or deny the existence of the cycle of time, of predetermined destiny, or will it leave that open to interpretation too? It's already confirmed the pre-programmed nature of the Cylons, and held that up as a mirror to man's own predefined innate nature.