Is it Earth?

[genji2000]

There's no "undecided" option - pin your colours to a mast. Someone can do another poll at a later date if necessary to see if opinion has changed.

The case Against (led by Proxenus).

The 'constellations match' is not necessarily indicative of the precise location of earth because they can be seen similarly from other planets.

We were shown no recognisable continental outlines (as we were in Crossroads Part 2) to indicate the land masses we are familiar with. We were also shown no (excepting the ruined city) familiar landmarks, such as the Statue of Liberty.

The 'New York' skyline was gone - it could have been any post-nuclear war city. Also, what was shown of the architecture doesn't exactly match that of the current environment (e.g. Brooklyn Bridge). The shot of the city could have been deliberately misleading, intending to evoke an image of NYC in the viewers' minds.

The 'blue planet covered by cloud' applies to Caprica and Kobol too, and could equally apply to any number of similar planets in the BSG universe.

The Watchtower Four did not openly state that they knew this was Earth - Tigh called it the best explanation.

The Fifth has not yet been revealed. "The missing Three will give you the Five who come from the home of the Thirteenth" - not four of the Five.

Laura isn't dead.

As Raist and a number of others have commented - the alliance between Lee's colonials and D'Anna's rebels was rushed and contrived. Too shortly after D'Anna had airlocked a hostage and targeted her nukes on the fleet, Lee offered the hand of friendship. D'Anna took it hesitatingly, as if she didn't trust it. She still didn't seem to trust Adama and Roslin when they'd landed. It's possible that President Adama is rolling a hard six, but what his plan in relation to the Cylons might be I can't guess.

If the colonials are duping the Cylons then who is involved?


Lee, certainly.
Roslin (who helped convince Adama to take the fleet to Earth, and who gives Lee a knowing look as Adama heads out of his cabin to the CIC, after his "roll the hard six")?
Adama (unlikely - the big turnaround scene began with Lee pointing to Earth on the map, although the two of them could have established that they would call this not-Earth planet Earth before the scene began)?
Gaeta (probably, because he 'matched' the constellations)?
Kara (who, we believe, should know whether it's Earth or not)?
Tigh, Tyrol and Anders (who, if they know it's not Earth, didn't flat out lie to D'Anna, but said "it's the best explanation")?
Who else from the celebrating fleet (and was Lee's table-hopping merely a show to convince the CIC that he believed it was Earth)?


The case For (just about everyone else I think).

The constellations matched. That was Earth.

Enough people agree that the pan across the ruined city was at least intended to represent a post-nuclear war Manhattan skyline (even if the city itself wasn't relevant - is was just a city on Earth). The comparative photos are too similar to deny this, even if the set was not architecturally accurate or to scale. This was, in fact, the Charlton Heston moment. BklynBruzer confirms that it looks exactly like the Brooklyn Bridge.

The infected beacon, the Viper's homing signal, Kara's special destiny all pointed to this planet as Earth.

D'Anna had an Eight (tech-goddess) verify the Viper's signal. I'm not sure how she verified it but she was clearly in the cockpit to confirm that the humans weren't lying.

This planet is exactly as Kara described Earth earlier this Season - a blue planet covered by clouds. The similarity of Kara's recent description and the shots of this planet is at least intended to link the two in viewers' minds.

Just how many Earth-like planets are knocking about, anyway? [N.B. we have visited at least three - Caprica, Kobol and the algae planet, plus there were the other colonies.]

Identifiable shots of the Florida pan-handle or the Statue of Liberty weren't necessary; we're not children.

Someone saw Baja California (I don't even know what that means).

The Watchtower Four didn't have any alternative explanation.

You couldn't fake those celebrations, nor Adama's "We did it," and Lee's "You did it."

Kara thinks it's Earth (plus we think from rumours and the preview of Season 4.5 that she finds her old body and burns it).

The pacing of the last few episodes (including the new alliance) can be explained by the looming writers' strike.

To say it's not Earth is just crazy talk. Really. ;)

[pagad]

Shouldn't this be in the Season 4 spoiler folder?

And yes, saying it's not Earth is just crazy talk. :)

[5th Cylon]

how come no maybe option?

[genji2000]

Shouldn't this be in the Season 4 spoiler folder?

And yes, saying it's not Earth is just crazy talk. :)

I figured it's completely speculative, so it's hardly a spoiler.

how come no maybe option?

I reckoned a 'maybe' option would garner about 95% of the vote because I think the arguments against are as strong as those for. If you're gonna vote 'don't know' then why bother voting? And it's my first poll and I'm not sure I've thought through the best way to get a representative illustration of opinion.

[5th Cylon]

I reckoned a 'maybe' option would garner about 95% of the vote because I think the arguments against are as strong as those for. If you're gonna vote 'don't know' then why bother voting? And it's my first poll and I'm not sure I've thought through the best way to get a representative illustration of opinion.

I am just kidding, i am a solid yes. You know it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck it must be a duck

[Neakal]

This is Earth. While the buildup to it was rushed, the feeling of the scenes after they found the location of Earth was covered in a detailed manner with things like that tear-jerking shot of the fleet approaching Earth and the many celebrations around the Fleet, all intended to invoke a sense of hope and triumph among the viewers and to contrast that to the upcoming shock and disappointment. Had their arrival been different (FTL Fault, stumble on a planet, "Hey this could be the little planet that solves all our problems") I could have believed this is not Earth but the tension in Revelations convinced me this is Earth. Revealing this is not Earth after that emotional buildup would be the ultimate (and cheapest) doublecross.

Moreoever, story-wise it creates an interesting new problem: The place theyve been seeking as sanctuary and as a new home is in ruins. What now? Where can they go? How can they deal with this? Plus, as the criterias above mention, the panning shot was a Planet of the Apes moment. I actually wondered if we'd see a ruined Statue of Liberty.

That being said, there was something odd about the buildings I can't put my finger on. Aspecially that dome-looking one next to which the characters were standing. Maybe what were seeing are the ruins from a different "cycle" but nevertheless, its Earth.

[stavrosg]

I disagree with the "identifiable continent" part since we weren't really showed any continent; Just clouds on the sunlight part and a dark part.Was it intentional? Could they make it more identifiable? Probably not, since a nuclear winter would have made it mostly cloudy anyway.

[genji2000]

Was it intentional?

Potentially the not-quite-our-continents and the not-quite-Manhattan was intended to cast doubt over whether it really is Earth.

[Starstruck]

I don't think we can say with certainty that it's NYC and the Brooklyn Bridge, but yes, it's Earth. Those are Earthling ruins - the big stone cross is the biggest give-away.

To me, thinking this is not Earth is akin to thinking the "Watchtower Four" are not really Cylons (sorry, Timbo). There's no evidence for it, plenty evidence against it, and it would be a very weird gotcha from the writers. What could they possibly gain by doing that? We knew this story would have a messy sad ending. Here's the first part of that.

[genji2000]

I don't think we can say with certainty that it's NYC and the Brooklyn Bridge, but yes, it's Earth. Those are Earthling ruins - the big stone cross is the biggest give-away.

To me, thinking this is not Earth is akin to thinking the "Watchtower Four" are not really Cylons (sorry, Timbo). There's no evidence for it, plenty evidence against it, and it would be a very weird gotcha from the writers. What could they possibly gain by doing that? We knew this story would have a messy sad ending. Here's the first part of that.

Well I tried to make a reasonable case for why it might not be Earth in the OP. It's tough because I'm an Earthian, but I think it's plausible given Roslin's determination not to have Earth frakked up by the Cylons.

[aylinn]

I personaly don't think it's New York, although that was my 1st thought. I believe it's Earth. But remeber those ruins when the landed? They kinda looked like this temple in the book Lee was watching.

[Avatar]

I suggested it in another thread. What if this is actually Kobol (the Kobol from the first season could be just a roadsign). I mean - a desolated radiated wasteland abandoned 4000 years ago would probably look like that. And upon the landing on the 12 planets of the colonies the people created the myth of the gods and the road back (just before they destroyed their technology) so that if they develope spaceflight in centuries to come again, they could go back to see their past and their former mistakes.

My theorie is based upon the assumption, that it would be earth if this would have been the final episode. But since it continues they can really conclude the story and this is the real Kobol where the find the last cylon and the way to earth.

[turkey]

The ruins to me looked like the steel crown of a building. I'm not the only one who saw the big stone cross, either, am I?

BTW I was wrong about seeing Baja California (it's too big and too green relative to the other landmasses you can see).

BUT-- watch the landing scene again. They're heading down to an "eastern seaboard" with the destination deliberately obscured by clouds.

That, plus the other shots from orbit tell me that the show is trying to get us to think, "maybe it's not Earth...," a doubt which is supposed to be crushed by panning across the immediately-recognizable cityscape at the end.

[turkey]

No doubt it in my that it's Earth or NYC now. Look at this picture of NYC from space and compare it to the episode.

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/%7Esmall/Urban/images/ESC_large_ISS006_ISS006-E-.jpg

http://www.battlestarforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57&stc=1&d=1213553644

[genji2000]

turkey, where are the similarities? I can't see any correlation.

[turkey]

It's not so much what you can see, but how conveniently the clouds are placed.

[genji2000]

It's not so much what you can see, but how conveniently the clouds are placed.

I don't think that's gonna wash.

The interesting thing about the Manhattan speculation is that much of BSG draws on the events of 9/11 and the subsequent war on terror. It would be a nice touch if they landed at the source of their source material.

[turkey]

Really-- you've got a coastline that matches the Eastern seaboard of the USA, with clouds that cover its most distinctive features. We fly into the clouds, land, can't see much, then pan out and see a city that the audience immediately recognizes as NYC. Cut to black.

It's not a coincidence.

[genji2000]

Really-- you've got a coastline that matches the Eastern seaboard of the USA, with clouds that cover its most distinctive features. We fly into the clouds, land, can't see much, then pan out and see a city that the audience immediately recognizes as NYC. Cut to black.

It's not a coincidence.

I don't disagree, I just don't think either of those photos show us the eastern seaboard, so they don't illustrate anything.

Whenever I see more recent shots of the Manhattan skyline the gap where the twin towers should be surprises me. However, my friend has a photo of the skyline in her bathroom, taken before 9/11. It's now shocking to see that with the twin towers still there. Those feelings I have (which I'm sure many people share) are I think what Brian A. Reed means when he says we are seeing what we want to see, but I still maintain that seeing all the buildings laid waste is a deliberate echo of the feelings we have about the missing twin towers.

But we'll have to wait to find out if the Writers (by direction) intended to evoke an image of Manhattan, or if we're bringing our own imagery to the scene.

[Brian A. Reed]

Turkey - I'm with Genji. Could you highlight the portion of the thumbnail and its corresponding location on the NYC view?

Those feelings I have (which I'm sure many people share) are I think what Brian A. Reed means when he says we are seeing what we want to see...

Yeppers.

(and you can all call me Brian)

[turkey]

How's this?

http://www.battlestarforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58&stc=1&d=1213559021

http://www.battlestarforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59&stc=1&d=1213559021

[genji2000]

turkey, the orange bits are city lights, aren't they? The big grey bits are cloud, right?

[turkey]

Yeah.

[genji2000]

Yeah.

So on the BSG pic, the red line has ocean above it and land below it.

On the NASA pic, the red line has land above it and cloud below it.

So on the NASA pic, the red line does not mark a coastline, but on the BSG pic it does.

Have I got that right?

[turkey]

One thing that does give me pause, though, was that when we last saw Earth it wasn't nearly so cloudy.

[turkey]

So on the BSG pic, the red line has ocean above it and land below it.

On the NASA pic, the red line has land above it and cloud below it.

So on the NASA pic, the red line does not mark a coastline, but on the BSG pic it does.

Have I got that right?

No, I was just trying to trace the coastlines without obscuring them. Don't read into my sloppy photo editing.

[Xenon242]

One thing that does give me pause, though, was that when we last saw Earth it wasn't nearly so cloudy.

I would venture to suggest that's because the Earth we saw in Revelations has an atmosphere loaded with radioactive particles from whatever calamity befell it, as opposed to just simple cloud cover.

[ranvir]

This is definitely Earth and I said my reasons why in the Revelations episode thread.

I don't think this is Kobol... Remember that the ruins of the city they saw in Kobol had a one to one match with the descriptions (and I think there was even a picture, wasn't there?) in the scriptures. Not to mention that the Tomb of Athena, the Opera House, and other well-known landmarks that are supposed to be on Kobol were on that planet.

The Head Six seemed it to think it was Kobol as well.

[wpgunit]

One thing that does give me pause, though, was that when we last saw Earth it wasn't nearly so cloudy.


I think this goes back to all has happened before and will happen again.

Could be nuclear winter, as the "earth" has been destored and desolte for quite some time.

[turkey]

I meant last time we saw it on BSG, at the end of Season 3.

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/thumb/3/38/Earth_%28RDM%29.jpg/640px-Earth_%28RDM%29.jpg

[Xenon242]

Yeah I knew what you meant, and I stick to my statement, largely because we don't know the nature of Starbuck having got there is in the first place. Time travel? Alternate dimension? Until we know the answers, we can only go on what we see.

[genji2000]

Part of the argument against it being Earth is that that photo turkey posted from Crossroads Part 2 showed our Earth, including North America. If they'd already showed what was clearly our Earth then, what is the significance of them not showing similarly recognisable continents in Revelations?

What did we actually see in Crossroads Part 2? Earth as it was then in the timeline of the show (maybe a few months before Revelations), or Earth as it used to be, maybe in 2008 or 1492? Why isn't it covered in the ash cloud that the planet they landed on in Revelations is?

[LSOP]

Maybe the Earth in Crossroads 2 is "New Earth" (like New Caprica) Maybe after setting up all the beacons, transponders, prophecies etc. to lead any seekers to Earth, things went sour there and they ended up nuking themselves. But before they did themselves in, some forward-thinking ones set out to start again on a new planet. They called it Earth also. And they left clues down on the old nuked Earth for anyone wanting to find the new Earth, and that's what 4.5 will show us. How 'bout that?

[genji2000]

Maybe the Earth in Crossroads 2 is "New Earth" (like New Caprica) Maybe after setting up all the beacons, transponders, prophecies etc. to lead any seekers to Earth, things went sour there and they ended up nuking themselves. But before they did themselves in, some forward-thinking ones set out to start again on a new planet. They called it Earth also. And they left clues down on the old nuked Earth for anyone wanting to find the new Earth, and that's what 4.5 will show us. How 'bout that?

OK, but that just falls into the category of the planet in Revelations not being the Earth they're seeking.

[Avatar]

Maybe the Earth in Crossroads 2 is "New Earth" (like New Caprica) Maybe after setting up all the beacons, transponders, prophecies etc. to lead any seekers to Earth, things went sour there and they ended up nuking themselves. But before they did themselves in, some forward-thinking ones set out to start again on a new planet. They called it Earth also. And they left clues down on the old nuked Earth for anyone wanting to find the new Earth, and that's what 4.5 will show us. How 'bout that?

This would actually make the "Revelations-Earth" the real Kobol and the real origin - or Kobol II. Man. You give humanity a really bad testemony.

Moving away from Kobol I (season 1) to the 12 colonies and Kobol II (Revelations-Earth), then waste it again and move on to actual Earth. Like: Lets waste another planet every 5000 years or so *gg*

Still the timeframe is relevant. Is BSG playing in past present or future. Past: They could become the atlantian tribe on a primitive earth
Present: Well, don't think about it for I still hold some value of humanitiy and believe into not nuking ourselves into oblivion every now and then + the people from the colonies could be the offspring of the atlantian tribe on ancient earth who left the planet and allowed the so called 13th tribe to develope (cheesy - sounds to much like Stargate)
Future: Maybe we blew ourselves up, or some survivors left earth and founded the colonies. Would be a funny thing. They fooled themselves with their own superstition :lol:

Still it bothers me why the roadsigns are getting older and older from Kobol I to Earth (or Kobol II): 2000 year old ruins on Kobol I, 3000 year old beacon in the nebula, nova eruption every 4000 years at the algae planet...

There are too many uncertainities to confirm, that it is earth or rule it out completely.

[LSOP]

Regarding the matchup of the 12 constellations: Some say that you can still see those constellations from somewhere else. I disagree. Anywhere in the vicinity of our solar system you could see them, but if you travel anything more than a lightyear away then the shapes will start to change. Depending on which direction you move, some constellations could remain looking the same, however. For example, if you traveled from our solar system right towards Orion, it would still look bascically the same for many light years away. But the other constellations would start to slip out of alignment, especially the ones on either side of your travel. Remember, the 12 zodiac constellations are the perfect locators because they are laid out in a 360 degree ring around our solar system. If you move away from our solar system in any direction, at least some of them start to distort. Additionally, when Gaeta does his comparison, I'm sure that his navigational computer can compare star locations with much more accuracy than the human eye could pick up a slight distortion in the star positions. So, when the nav computer says they have a solid lock on ALL 12 zodiac constllations, there is only one place that they can be: in our solar system. Once there, head toward the Sun and check out the planets until you find earth. Or even better, just use Kara's viper instruments to home right in to transponder on the 3rd planet out from the Sun.

So this has got to be the real Earth, unless Gaeta is lying because he's the fifth...nah.

So I don't think the green Crossroads 2 earth could be anywhere else than right where the Colonials are standing. I don't know why it is green in Crossroads 2, but now appears to have nuclear winter cloud cover. But maybe the whole planet isn't nuked. Maybe just this world capital/religious center/temple of Aurora got nuked, but out in the country things are still green and not so bad.

[genji2000]

So this has got to be the real Earth, unless Gaeta is lying because he's the fifth...nah.



Or unless Gaeta is lying because he's been instructed to by the presidents because they don't want the Cylons anywhere near Earth.

I'm also inclined to discount the Crossroads Part 2 Earth entirely, as I am All Along The Watchtower, as nothing more than dramatic licence - the Writers speaking directly to the audience.

[crood]

It wouldn't matter if Gaeta lied. There's nothing to stop the Cylons from making their own readings. From everything we've seen, a Cylon basestar has greater abilities than Galatactica. For examply, their nav computers are more accurate, allowing them longer FTL jumps.

[genji2000]

It wouldn't matter if Gaeta lied. There's nothing to stop the Cylons from making their own readings. From everything we've seen, a Cylon basestar has greater abilities than Galatactica. For examply, their nav computers are more accurate, allowing them longer FTL jumps.

That depends on what Kara's Viper actually showed. Position? Or just direction? Regardless, the humans plotted the course based on the information from Kara's Viper. The Cylons tagged along. The point is the Cylons didn't plot their own course so it's possible the humans did lie about Earth's location, and therefore it matters very much whether Gaeta lied.

[Xenon242]

That would be a pretty interesting turn of events, if the Colonials knowingly took the Cylons off-course with a plan to jump away to real Earth, marooning the Cylons. But, based on the next episode's preview I'm guessing that's one of the least likely scenarios ever.

[genji2000]

That would be a pretty interesting turn of events, if the Colonials knowingly took the Cylons off-course with a plan to jump away to real Earth, marooning the Cylons. But, based on the next episode's preview I'm guessing that's one of the least likely scenarios ever.

Me too, I'm just playing devil's advocate in Proxenus' absence.

[crood]

That depends on what Kara's Viper actually showed. Position? Or just direction? Regardless, the humans plotted the course based on the information from Kara's Viper. The Cylons tagged along. The point is the Cylons didn't plot their own course so it's possible the humans did lie about Earth's location, and therefore it matters very much whether Gaeta lied.

I wasn't referring to the course they took, I was referring to the identification of the constellations. The Cylons could easily have done that as well.

Also, keep in mind that every planetary discovery in the series has been pretty much an accident. For them to have lied to the Cylons, they'd have needed prior knowledge of a habitable planet that they Cylons didn't know about.

Additionally, the disappointed reactions of everyone on the planet pretty much confirms they think it's Earth.

[Jason1975]

I wasn't referring to the course they took, I was referring to the identification of the constellations. The Cylons could easily have done that as well.

Also, keep in mind that every planetary discovery in the series has been pretty much an accident. For them to have lied to the Cylons, they'd have needed prior knowledge of a habitable planet that they Cylons didn't know about.

Additionally, the disappointed reactions of everyone on the planet pretty much confirms they think it's Earth.

The problem is did the cylons know about the constellations that was giving to them in the Tomb of Athena, since Roslin and Adama probably kept it a close secret and only told people an a need to know basis, like Gaeta.

[genji2000]

I wasn't referring to the course they took, I was referring to the identification of the constellations. The Cylons could easily have done that as well.

As far as I recall, no Cylon (including Athena) had any knowledge of the constellations.

Also, keep in mind that every planetary discovery in the series has been pretty much an accident. For them to have lied to the Cylons, they'd have needed prior knowledge of a habitable planet that they Cylons didn't know about.

As we saw from the discovery of New Caprica, Raptors can identify which planets have a breathable atmosphere and can sustain life without having to enter it's atmosphere. We didn't see what activity was going on after each jump.

Additionally, the disappointed reactions of everyone on the planet pretty much confirms they think it's Earth.

Like I say, I'm playing devil's advocate, but only Lee and possibly Roslin (Gaeta wasn't there was he?) would have to pretend to be disappointed. Everyone else (well okay maybe excepting Kara) would have believed this is Earth as much as the Cylons are supposed to. D'Anna for one looked fairly disbelieving until she saw Adama's and Roslin's reactions.

[Proxenus]

Wow, I never thought my silly meanderings would amount to stuff.

Truth be told, I was on the fence on the issue. It's likely to be Earth, but I just noted that no where could we positively identify the planet as Earth.

So, without further a due, here are my arguments against the planet being Earth.

1. Gaeta got a constellation fix. Gaeta says the constellations are a match, but what does that mean? As far as we know, only four people actually saw the constellations as they appeared on Earth (well, five, but Billy's dead). They only visually saw the constellations and took no photo reference. So, Gaeta is only going off the basic shape of each flag and the four people's recollections. So, distortions are going to be inevitable.

Furthermore, we are not sure if the map on Kobol took into account stellar drift. Keep in mind that the map isn't 4000 years old, but possibly (and probably) older.

Last, regarding the positioning. Given that Gaeta's position markers are rough, he's not going to be able to provide a pinpoint position. When the Orion constellation made an appearance in The Ties that Bind (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/The_Ties_That_Bind), I assumed the writers either made a mistake or were trying to tell us they were close. However, based on my research, you could be 20-30 light years away from Earth before you notice a distortion in the Orion constellation and even farther before it become unrecognizable.

So, the constellation fix is not proof the planet is Earth.

2. The ruins on the planet look Earth-like. Do they? They look like only ruins to me. We know that the bridge is not the Brooklyn Bridge (despite what the Wiki says) because it has the wrong design. The buildings in the background also seemed more dome-like rather than skyscrapers. While I concede, this does not mean the planet isn't Earth, it also does not mean it is.

3. Everyone thinks it's Earth. Do they? No one knows what this planet is. Kara Thrace find a locator signal that only her "new" Viper picks up and assumes it's Earth. But why? Is there a signal that says "Earth is here"? Colonel Tigh concede that he doesn't know. Everyone just assumes it's the location of Earth because Kara Thrace says it is. Problem is that Kara Thrace has been wrong with her feelings before. She was wrong when she was looking for a comet instead of a damage basestar. Why is she right now?

4. Identifiable landmasses. Despite people's stretching, you cannot see a single identifiable landmass on the new planet. In Crossroads, the producers were not shy at presenting Earth. So, now that that our heroes are actually on Earth, they decide not to show any landmasses?

5. Kara Thrace said Earth was a blue planet with clouds and that's what this planet is. So was Kobol. So was Caprica. Now, I'm not saying that this planet is Kobol or Caprica, but just because it matches vague description does not make it Earth. A lot of habitable planets are going to be blue with clouds.

A few other things to consider. The main theme of this show has been the fleet trying to get to Earth. If this was Earth, why are they continuing the show? Good or bad ending, the point of the show is complete. It seems very forced to continue the show after the "goal" has been achieved.

In the next episode, a "devastating discovery plunges the fleet into chaos and despair." You would assume that discovering that Earth is a crap hole (pardon my language) would be the trigger, right? However, note the language. It's future tense. They've already discovered the problem with Earth (and, on a side note, New Caprica was a crap hole and people were still excited; Earth may not be a pleasure planet, but it's habitable). So, what's next? How depressing would it be to discover that after all this celebration, the planet isn't Earth, but another marker and Earth is still out there?

That's it for now. I'll try to maintain my "opposition" as best as I can.

[genji2000]

Wow, I never thought my silly meanderings would amount to stuff.

Like I said, I don't agree but I didn't think it was a completely dumb idea.

Whew, thank gods you're here. It's been heavy.

[Proxenus]

Like I said, I don't agree but I didn't think it was a completely dumb idea.

Whew, thank gods you're here. It's been heavy.

Sir, I apologize for my absence. WoW Raiding took priority over the weekend.

[wpgunit]

OK, but that just falls into the category of the planet in Revelations not being the Earth they're seeking.

I have to agree that this might not be the earth they were seeking. It just seemed to easy. Like ok here are the 4 final cylons, and then boom earth.

Wasn't Roslyn "the dying leader" supposed to die before finding earth.

I believe (correct me if i am wrong) that this came from the orical???

Any thoughts?

BTW I cannot spell

[genji2000]

I have to agree that this might not be the earth they were seeking. It just seemed to easy. Like ok here are the 4 final cylons, and then boom earth.

Wasn't Roslyn "the dying leader" supposed to die before finding earth.

I believe (correct me if i am wrong) that this came from the orical???

Any thoughts?

BTW I cannot spell

Before finding their new home. They haven't made it across the Brooklyn Bridge yet so she may yet not make it.

What?

[Xenon242]

I have to agree that this might not be the earth they were seeking. It just seemed to easy. Like ok here are the 4 final cylons, and then boom earth.

I don't remember if it was RDM or one of the cast who said this before the start of series 4, but in any case, it was known we would reach Earth well before the end of series 4.

That said, we're half-way through it, it seems really like a waste of the last ten episodes to embark on a search for a new planet and a slap in the face (as someone else previously posted) to the audience if this isn't really Earth.

Wasn't Roslyn "the dying leader" supposed to die before finding earth.

You'll want to refer to this thread: http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1320

[Proxenus]

I have to agree that this might not be the earth they were seeking. It just seemed to easy. Like ok here are the 4 final cylons, and then boom earth.

Ah, the old Jedi Mind Trick.

Me: "This is not the Earth you are looking for."
Admiral Adama: "This isn't the Earth we're looking for!"
Me: "You can continue looking for Earth."
Admiral Adama: "We can continue looking for Earth."
Me: "Spin up the FTL and jump."
Admiral Adama: "Lieutenant Gaeta, spin up the FTL and prepare for a jump."

[genji2000]

That said, we're half-way through it, it seems really like a waste of the last ten episodes to embark on a search for a new planet and a slap in the face (as someone else previously posted) to the audience if this isn't really Earth.


I don't think it's a waste. The colonials think this is the end of their journey, they made it, they're home.

It isn't. Finding Earth might be the be all and end all for the colonials but for us there are many more ends that need tying up. I wonder if ten episodes (including the possible 2 x 90 minute eps) will be enough?

================================================== =======

Well, the poll is neck and neck at the moment. Make up your minds quickly if you want vote because I'll be closing it just before the next episode airs.

[Xenon242]

I don't think it's a waste. The colonials think this is the end of their journey, they made it, they're home.

It isn't. Finding Earth might be the be all and end all for the colonials but for us there are many more ends that need tying up. I wonder if ten episodes (including the possible 2 x 90 minute eps) will be enough?

My real fear is that in the rush and excitement of the problem of 'Is this Earth?/Is this not Earth?' and baiting the audience and torturing them some more, the writers will start to lose sight of a lot of the character threads that need tying up, and that ultimately made the show so many notches above the rest.

It seems everything about BSG, lately, is about the really big things: the final Cylon, Earth, prophecies, civil wars. How is Gaeta coping with his new handicap? How is Lee's and Bill's relationship since Lee went his own way? How is Athena reacting to the reveal of the Four?

I could go on, but you see what I'm getting at, I think.

[Captin Jenkins]

It might be Earth, but I went with the minority and voted no. The fact that the writers didn't make it obvious by showing any continents is the biggest thing that makes me question it. That had to be done intentionally for some reason. But then on the other hand Gaeta did confirm that they were in the right place. So who knows? If it is Earth it will be interesting to see where they go from here. If the planet turns out to not be Earth then perhaps this planet will give them the next clue on the road to the real Earth? To bad we got to wait so long to find out.

[genji2000]

My real fear is that in the rush and excitement of the problem of 'Is this Earth?/Is this not Earth?' and baiting the audience and torturing them some more, the writers will start to lose sight of a lot of the character threads that need tying up, and that ultimately made the show so many notches above the rest.

It seems everything about BSG, lately, is about the really big things: the final Cylon, Earth, prophecies, civil wars. How is Gaeta coping with his new handicap? How is Lee's and Bill's relationship since Lee went his own way? How is Athena reacting to the reveal of the Four?

I could go on, but you see what I'm getting at, I think.

Well maybe. It's also possible that the Writers didn't give it a second thought. That is Earth. That is Manhattan. They might be scratching their heads thinking, "what, didn't we make it obvious enough?", and the the second half of the season won't mention the fact that it might not be Earth.

Gaeta's a bit pissed off but he's a trooper and he has Dee there to look after him. Lee and Bill are cool - Lee sorted out his dad's mess so they're fine. Athena accessed Boomer's memories. She already knew who they were. No biggie.

I think that stuff's still there but there's so much else going on that it's down to the actors to convey that now. The Writers have too much else on and if the actors don't know the characters by now then someone made a mistake in casting.

It might be Earth, but I went with the minority and voted no.

Nice one. Got to keep that delicate balance together.

[timbo]

I still think it is Earth, but I have been thinking about a book I read years ago about a handful of survivors of a nuclear war who go to Antarctica to escape the radiation, but it turns out that the bombs caused a shift in the way the Earth spins. Antarctica ends up being in the tropics. Maybe all of Earth is not like the part where they landed.

[Proxenus]

It might be Earth, but I went with the minority and voted no. The fact that the writers didn't make it obvious by showing any continents is the biggest thing that makes me question it. That had to be done intentionally for some reason. But then on the other hand Gaeta did confirm that they were in the right place. So who knows? If it is Earth it will be interesting to see where they go from here. If the planet turns out to not be Earth then perhaps this planet will give them the next clue on the road to the real Earth? To bad we got to wait so long to find out.

That's actually my biggest point.

If this is Earth, why are the producers and directors being so coy about it?

Show a continent or a recognizable landmark.

[barnmaddo]

It just occurred to me that just because one city was nuked and is uninhabitable it doesn't mean that the entire planet or even most of the planet is like that. Caprica still seemed plenty lush even after getting nuked, the Cylons had seemed to settle there for a bit and after they left they said the humans could return freely, all implying that the planet was still plenty habitable. Earth may be similar, perhapses they only landed at the nuked city because it was the most interesting place on the planet.

[leon]

I definitely think it's not earth.

There was no moon.

There is no temple of whatever it was on REAL earth.

There are too many episodes left, we were deliberately shown the actual earth with North America clearly visible, it was not visible on this planet.

Kara finds her old body and burns it??? WOW!!! Where is that?

Poor Kara. Just when she was starting to settle down.

[Aphrodite]

This is Earth. I still think that they are in Brooklyn looking at Manhattan.

I've read on many BG forums that this could be a dream, a vision, imagination...
I've even read on one speculating that this could be Rome.

Whether it's Rome, NYC, or Sydney, I still think it's Earth.

[Proxenus]

This is Earth. I still think that they are in Brooklyn looking at Manhattan.

I've read on many BG forums that this could be a dream, a vision, imagination...
I've even read on one speculating that this could be Rome.

Whether it's Rome, NYC, or Sydney, I still think it's Earth.

The bridge in the scene is not the Brooklyn Bridge. The shape is wrong.

[Osprey]

"The shape is wrong."

and the fact it was NUKED doesn't allow a little license for the shape to have thus been altered?

/full disclosure -- i voted yes, and on top of that think they are in nyc -- the "side by side" photos continue to be the stronest evidence to me. however, i concede nothing definitive was shown; BUT that imo does not reach the level of disqualifying [yet] and like aphrodite i maintain whether or not they are in nyc they are on earth.

[Aphrodite]

The bridge in the scene is not the Brooklyn Bridge. The shape is wrong.
I never said it was the bridge. I said they were standing in Brooklyn.

[Proxenus]

"The shape is wrong."

and the fact it was NUKED doesn't allow a little license for the shape to have thus been altered?

/full disclosure -- i voted yes, and on top of that think they are in nyc -- the "side by side" photos continue to be the stronest evidence to me. however, i concede nothing definitive was shown; BUT that imo does not reach the level of disqualifying [yet] and like aphrodite i maintain whether or not they are in nyc they are on earth.

Not in this case. The bridge in the final scene has two columns of stone. The Brooklyn Bridge has three.

[Proxenus]

I never said it was the bridge. I said they were standing in Brooklyn.

Well, there are only four bridges from Brooklyn to another part of New York City: Brooklyn Bridge, Manhattan Bridge, Williamsburg Bridge, and the Varranzo-Narrows Bridge.

Of those four bridges, only the Brooklyn Bridge is made of stone like the one in the image. The others are made of steel or a metal of some sort.

However, as I pointed out earlier, it is not the proper shape to be the Brooklyn Bridge.

[genji2000]

"The shape is wrong."

and the fact it was NUKED doesn't allow a little license for the shape to have thus been altered?

Sounds reasonable to me. The third column could have been destroyed. The podcast indicates that it was intentionally Manhattan in an earlier graphics rendering.

[LSOP]

The podcast indicates that it was intentionally Manhattan in an earlier graphics rendering.

What podcast? Is there already a podcast for revelations?

[Proxenus]

Sounds reasonable to me. The third column could have been destroyed. The podcast indicates that it was intentionally Manhattan in an earlier graphics rendering.

Hmm. Good point.

If the third column was destroyed, it could be the Brooklyn Bridge.

[Bureizu]

Not Earth, on E3 finale Starbuck goes:

"I've been there, you are going to love it!"

There is no love for this planet... I believe it's a homage for the "Terra" on the original series... it's a planet with certain influence from the 13th Tribe, but not Earth.

[genji2000]

Not Earth, on E3 finale Starbuck goes:

"I've been there, you are going to love it!"

There is no love for this planet... I believe it's a homage for the "Terra" on the original series... it's a planet with certain influence from the 13th Tribe, but not Earth.

Kara: "It's gonna be okay. I've been to Earth. I know where it is, and I'm gonna take us there."

[helpiforgotwhoiam]

BSG is the sequel to Cloverfield.

[Sparrow]

Oh no!!!

The yes counts 47!!

[Osprey]

omgomgomgomg!

quick -- someone delete their vote!
:-)

/alternatively, for gods sakes someone new vote!
//heh

[aqtrans]

I definitely think it's Earth, just because they left it on a cliffhanger and to come back next year and go.."oh jk guys, we're not even in that solar system!" especially when there's only 10 episodes left, would seem pretty foolish on the writers parts.
Plus how would they explain the final four being called to Kara's viper, and then finding a beacon to some random planet?

[Osprey]

why does kara's viper HAVE to be showing them earth? what is to prevent it from being somewhere else?

it's the lack of definitive i.d. in the last moments of "revelations" that has spawned most of the "it isn't really earth!" speculation; as you can see with a current vote of 49-6 it's pretty much consensus here that it truly is earth, but one can hope that "sometimes a great notion" contains a line, scene, etc. that can put everything to rest ...

[genji2000]

I definitely think it's Earth, just because they left it on a cliffhanger and to come back next year and go.."oh jk guys, we're not even in that solar system!" especially when there's only 10 episodes left, would seem pretty foolish on the writers parts.
Plus how would they explain the final four being called to Kara's viper, and then finding a beacon to some random planet?

Well, the Watchtower Four had no idea whether it was a signal from Earth or not. That was just the best explanation for it in their opinions.

I thought the moment before the final jump, just as the music begins, when we see the Sun - our sun - was too wonderful a moment for them to take that away from us in 4.5.

Welcome to the forum. Your post has made me decide to cast my vote.

[aqtrans]

why does kara's viper HAVE to be showing them earth? what is to prevent it from being somewhere else?

it's the lack of definitive i.d. in the last moments of "revelations" that has spawned most of the "it isn't really earth!" speculation; as you can see with a current vote of 49-6 it's pretty much consensus here that it truly is earth, but one can hope that "sometimes a great notion" contains a line, scene, etc. that can put everything to rest ...
Well that's what I mean, if Kara's Viper did point to some other planet, then why were the Final Four called to it, and why was the beacon being transmitted from that planet in the first place? Just some random human out there transmitting a colonial distress signal from some random planet, especially so close to earth (the symbols Kara saw all point in the direction they were headed)?

Heh, and I'm glad I could contribute. I just thought I'd finally register and stop trolling the boards, this re-watch made me love this show so much more.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Just an idea... and waking up a sleeping dragon in the process, but if the show is set well into the future (say in the year 20,000 CE), wouldn't the continents look different due to shifts in the continental shelf?

Check out plate tectonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics) to get an idea of where I'm going with this.

So even if we saw Earth's continents, we may never have known it was Earth since the continents would look so different.

Of course, don't ask me to explain why Earth in Crossroads, Part II looked like our Earth... That may be dramatic license to quickly establish that Earth exists in the BSG universe.

[genji2000]

Of course, don't ask me to explain why Earth in Crossroads, Part II looked like our Earth... That may be dramatic license to quickly establish that Earth exists in the BSG universe.

In an episode that had characters reciting lines from a Jimi Hendrix song I don't think the shot of Earth really needs explaining.

[Osprey]

iirc, the Earth shown in "Revelations" has no continents identifiable through the atmosphere one way or the other, so it still could be the exact spheroid seen in crossroads ...

not a geologist, so not sure how many years it would take for visible change to continental outlines, even 20k may nt be enough ...

/officially tired of this question, tho not as much as the final cylon ...

[The Dirt]

You won't see much in terms of continental drift in the span of 20,000 years, but you would see significant sea level changes, lake distribution, and glacial changes. 20,000 years ago, the coast looked much different for most of the world, but the general shape of the continents was pretty similar. If, say Earth enters an Ice Age, the sea level would decrease significantly and you would see land bridges across Gibraltar, the Bosporus, the English Channel, some Indonesian islands, and you would also see the Mediterranean and Black seas shrink as they become freshwater lakes. Since we can only see North America in Crossroads 2, it's harder to track potential major geological changes. It's plausible that 20,000 years (or whatever period of time) in the future, the average temperature will be the same as it is now, so we wouldn't really see that much difference from space.

[BSGfan-atic]

As Aqtrans said above, there are only 10 more episodes left. To mess with us by having it turn out not to be Earth doesn't seem to give them enough time to then get to the real Earth, resolve the loose threads, and wrap up the series all together. Plus, with so many of us dedicated fans out here, the writers and producers would probably have to go into hiding that would make Salman Rushdie look like he was playing the children's version of hide-and-seek.:lol:

[Batman316]

Plus, with so many of us dedicated fans out here, the writers and producers would probably have to go into hiding that would make Salman Rushdie look like he was playing the children's version of hide-and-seek.:lol:

roflmao So Say We All

[137th Gebirg]

I'm thinking probably not Earth, but more of another stepping stone, getting closer.

The VFX folks went out of their way to prevent showing any kind of recognizable land masses when they arrived. They also didn't show the moon. I think they left the identity of the planet they're on intentionally ambiguous. Yes, it looks like it could be New York, but the bridge span and support design is slightly off from the Brooklyn Bridge. Others have said it might be Sydney Australia or another city in the midwest along a large river with a similar bridge configuration (name eludes me).

Don't know for sure.

[genji2000]

It's been pretty much confirmed at this point that they're on Earth. (Thank you SDCC!)

(Thank you Joe!)

[kieanp]

Hello,
Now i haven't seen the latest episode, i will be watching tomorrow so there might be some irrefutable evidence that completely contradicts this thread but i was wondering if everybody thought it was actually earth??

I have 3 reasons to doubt this:

1. In the original battlestar they find a planet called "tera" that the crew are convinced is earth. It is a desolate barren wasteland with no signs of life and appears to have been destroyed by some sort of war. They then go on to find out that it is indeed not actually earth.

2. In season 2 when they return to kobol with the arrow adama, starbuck, president etc. are all transported to earth. They are standing staring up in to the skies looking at the constellations trying to get some bearing on where earth is. They are standing in the middle of a field of long green grass.

3. The fundamental storyline that has been consistent all the way through Battlestar Galactica is humanities search for earth. You would think that if the show had been building up to this moment for so long that when humanity finally arrives at earth we would have a big massive shot of the planet. Something that we the viewers would be able to say "Yes my god they have found earth" but we don't get that. We get instead a brief shot of a bluey green planet that could possibly be earth.
If you think back to the end of season 3 when starbuck returns and the camera zooms out to earth you can easily tell that the planet shown is indeed earth. The end of the first half of season 4 is like a magician's sleight of hand. Moore and Co. are making us see what they want us to see.

As you know this is purely speculation and I would like to see what you guys think.

[The Dirt]

There was a spoiler way back in the day that said that this isn't the same Earth as we saw at the end of Crossroads pt II.

I'm going to separate the real world from the show for just a minute. In the show there is an Earth. It is the planet that the 13th tribe went to. It is the planet depicted in the scrolls of Pythia, in the Tomb of Athena, and pointed to by the constellations, the nova in the Algea Planet, and Kara's Viper.

What we don't see, however, is how this Earth is related our real-world Earth. For one, we don't see a single continental outline. We don't get an identifiable landmark. For all we know, this could be a different planet altogether, yet still having the same visible constellations are us.

Adama maked a hypothesis - that the survivors of the holocaust on Earth, the remnant of the 13th tribe - had to leave this planet and find a new home. We will have to see whether that is true. We do know, however, that the final 5 went to the colonies. What we don't know is whether there were any other survivors.

[Pnutmaster]

Adama maked a hypothesis - that the survivors of the holocaust on Earth, the remnant of the 13th tribe - had to leave this planet and find a new home. We will have to see whether that is true. We do know, however, that the final 5 went to the colonies. What we don't know is whether there were any other survivors.

Did he maked one? I thought he was talking about the Thirteen Tribes on Kobol, heading out into space to find new homes. We hear lines with theories in mind :p?

"The Thirteen Tribes of Kobol stood exactly on the same spot that we are right now. They experienced dreadful losses. Their planet was a graveyard. They needed a home, so they set out in the void of deep space with nothing but their ships and their guts, and the Thirteen succeeded."

[The Dirt]

That sounds like the exact quote. It's pretty clear that Adama was talking about the 13th tribe leaving Earth, not Kobol. 1-they were right here (Earth), 2-they got jacked, 3-they left, 4-they found a new home.

Adama also said something like "So will we."

Now, that doesn't seem to imply that the colonials are now out to find the 13th tribe. Rather, they will find a home as well.

[Gigit]

2. In season 2 when they return to kobol with the arrow adama, starbuck, president etc. Are all transported to earth. They are standing staring up in to the skies looking at the constellations trying to get some bearing on where earth is. they are standing in the middle of a field of long green grass.

agree! :)

[stavrosg]

Now, that doesn't seem to imply that the colonials are now out to find the 13th tribe. Rather, they will find a home as well.
Exactly. They will be looking for a habitable planet to settle now.

[Batman316]

and off we go to where the Cylon Civil War was....

[The Dirt]

They are standing staring up in to the skies looking at the constellations trying to get some bearing on where earth is. They are standing in the middle of a field of long green grass.

Great observation! Now if we could only figure out what kind of grass it is and what parts of the world it is native to. That would unlock some more secrets. Jeffrey is the 5th.

[Pnutmaster]

That sounds like the exact quote. It's pretty clear that Adama was talking about the 13th tribe leaving Earth, not Kobol. 1-they were right here (Earth), 2-they got jacked, 3-they left, 4-they found a new home.

It's only semantics, but when Adama says, "the Thirteen Tribes stood exactly on the same spot", I think he means "they were in the same position we are now". If he's talking about remnants of the Thirteenth Tribe, why not say, "the Thirteenth Tribe stood..."?

Adama also said something like "So will we."
Yup. Not disagreeing with you there. They're setting out blindly into space to find a new home.

Jeffrey is the 5th.No. Ellen was the Fifth, but she died. Dee was the Fifth, but she killed herself. Now Starbuck is the 5th.

[The Dirt]

But Starbuck is dead, and we don't know what she is. Gotcha there! It's Jeffrey, or Stan. But I'll stop watching the show and burn all my posters of Ron D. Moore if it's anyone else! GRRR!

[kieanp]

What we don't see, however, is how this Earth is related our real-world Earth. For one, we don't see a single continental outline. We don't get an identifiable landmark. For all we know, this could be a different planet altogether, yet still having the same visible constellations are us.


See i thought we did get a view of "our" earth at the end of series 3 but i just watched it right now and you are correct although i do think that could be north america?!?

Well that sort of takes some weight out of my last point however i do feel there is still some merit to it. See i still think that the "earth" in the show is our earth and now that the final cylon has been revealed this discovery of the actual earth could be the big surprise at/towards the end of the series. I think they will use the image of earth because think of the emotional pull that will have on the audience when we do finally see it. If the image was just some generic planet then most of the audience would be like "um.... adam and co. ..... you know that's not actually earth right?"

[Batman316]

But Starbuck is dead, and we don't know what she is. Gotcha there! It's Jeffrey, or Stan. But I'll stop watching the show and burn all my posters of Ron D. Moore if it's anyone else! GRRR!

Dude, don't forget 'The Steve'

i do think that could be north america?!?End of season 3... didn't that have an extra penninsular(sp) or something on it? Apart from that it looked like Earth good enough for me to buy it....

Then some smartass got out a map and pointed out that there was an extra bit

[kieanp]

See i was sure in an interview/podcast moore actually said they had to use a land mass that the average viewer of their show could identify and that wouldnt have been the case if it was a generic planet. However i am unable to find the interview/source so that might be complete and utter bull.

[The Dirt]

Dude, don't forget 'The Steve'

End of season 3... didn't that have an extra penninsular(sp) or something on it? Apart from that it looked like Earth good enough for me to buy it....

Then some smartass got out a map and pointed out that there was an extra bit

Ah yes... Steve. As for the extra landmass... I don't see it. I'll have to admit that I'm a bit of a geography geek, so it set off my bs meter. Lets compare.

Earth from Crossroads pt 2
http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/3/38/Earth_%28RDM%29.jpg

Earth from GoogleEarth
http://www.battlestarforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=183&stc=1&d=1232273492

I don't see a difference.

See i was sure in an interview/podcast moore actually said they had to use a land mass that the average viewer of their show could identify and that wouldnt have been the case if it was a generic planet. However i am unable to find the interview/source so that might be complete and utter bull.

Americans are notoriously bad a geography, and RDM knew that. I'm sure even 1/3 of the US viewers had no idea what that continent was.

[kieanp]

What we don't see, however, is how this Earth is related our real-world Earth. For one, we don't see a single continental outline. We don't get an identifiable landmark. For all we know, this could be a different planet altogether, yet still having the same visible constellations are us.



Starbuck, looking at star charts: What about this one?

Gaeta: It's a protoplanetary system.

Starbuck: So?

Gaeta: Nothing but rocks. No ringed gas giants like you ... claimed you saw.

Starbuck: I did see it, Lieutenant.

Gaeta: If you say so, sir.
surely she is claiming to see saturn

WOW!!! the dirt didnt see your post before posting. Thank's. I'm convinced this planet they are on now is not earth

[Batman316]

surely she is claiming to see saturn

That would be 'near' the location of the Cylon Civil War, apparently the 'stars match'

thanks Dirt, could just have been someone with photoshop playing. Still the images are 'alike' but not really accurate.... probably that whole continental shift thing.

Regardless I'm sticking with calling the planet they are on Revelations Earth up until we get to see the nice shiney version from Season 3

[The Dirt]

Or, since part of her memory ended up being a vision into the future - ie the first battle of the Cylon Civil war. She claimed that Earth was in a binary system, and she saw a comet - which turned out to be the rebel baseship.

On another note - "The yellow moon and star match the description in Pythia."

We didn't see a moon at all in this last episode.

[bradtem]

There is no extra landmass. In fact that Earth from crossroads is not just our Earth, it's our Earth around the present day. The Mississippi Delta is an artificial object shaped by human levee projects, at least the most recent lobes, and this photo has them. It did not look like this in the past, nor will it look like this in the future without a deliberate effort to maintain the current shape. And with raised water levels (the ruined city is partly submerged) it would not look like this either, nor would Florida.

I have mostly concluded the graphics dept. took a standard Earth from space graphic, and didn't bother to tweak it to show a different time.

Since the show takes place many thousands of years in our future (if it is in our universe at all) the delta really should not look like that, though it could in theory if people wanted to preserve it.

[Batman316]

Kieanp

Check out a few pages here (http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2269875)

[CalUK1986]

I think is our Earth, but I am not sure what Cylons have to do with it. As I said I think maybe they were really human, and the colonies are the cylons.

[The Dirt]

Kieanp

Check out a few pages here (http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2269875)

Jesus Halogen Christ - the stupidity!

"Can't be our Earth - what is that big inlet where California should be."
- It's called the Gulf of California. It exists today.

"Looks like a wasteland!"
- Compared to a false color elevation map of current weather

"Look - no ice anywhere. Just clouds!"
- Umm... there's a big band of snow in NE Canada

"No satellites!"
- Retards. You're not going to see sh*t from this kind of high orbit with ridiculously high luminosity from both the sun and the Earth.

This one takes the cake, because it illustrates the utter ignorance of these people.
http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4019
Where is the polar cap? How about behind the horizon, you moron. You're pointing at northern Canada.

What is this bright thing here? Lights? No... It's called Salt Lake. Lakes are made up of water, which reflects sunlight. There are also large salt deposits all around it, which make the area appear white.

What is this bright thing? A cloud or two.

Very brown here. Should be green. No... you moron. It can be brown if it's not particularly warm out. Take a look at Canada. It's covered with snow. I would assume that this is early or late northern hemispheric winter.

Does it look like the east coast is under water? No. It doesn't. If it was under water, you wouldn't see a clear outline from outer space.


I'm seriously ready to blow a gasket here. Either that or go to sleep.

[Batman316]

Jesus Halogen STEVE - the stupidity!

I'm seriously ready to blow a gasket here. Either that or go to sleep.

roflmao, I think you just had an anurism.

It's a newbie topic :P I'm assuming you (The Dirt) have had this same topic hundreds of times on this board.

I think someone needs a beauty sleep....

[The Dirt]

Honestly, this is the first time I've talked about this being Earth. I'm angry about the total lack of basic geographical knowledge and the absence of critical thinking.

[kieanp]

sorry dirt if i made you die a little inside but as batman says it is a newbie topic and i had absolutely no idea that it had been discussed to death already, glad to see your in agreement about the picture though. Apologies if my posts are annoying you but as today is my first day on the forum i really had stuff i wanted to ask. Again sorry if its getting on anyones tits

[Vesihiisi]

I find it amusing, that while we do not know some really interesting information, such as the relative locations of Earth, the Maelstrom planet, the Ionian nebula, and where the cylon civil war took place, Adama and Gaeta probably have them all neatly plotted on their charts.

[genji2000]

sorry dirt if i made you die a little inside but as batman says it is a newbie topic and i had absolutely no idea that it had been discussed to death already, glad to see your in agreement about the picture though. Apologies if my posts are annoying you but as today is my first day on the forum i really had stuff i wanted to ask. Again sorry if its getting on anyones tits

No problem. Just read through some older posts to find your way around. You can increase the age of posts shown by changing the Default Thread Age Cut-off setting in User CP / Edit Options.

Welcome to the forum.

[Prolescum]

As Lord Genji says, Kieanp, no worries and Welcome to the forum.

[PunkMaister]

turkey, where are the similarities? I can't see any correlation.

Me neiither. And that alleged Earth lacks a big natural satellite like our moon, care to explain that too?

[The Dirt]

sorry dirt if i made you die a little inside but as batman says it is a newbie topic and i had absolutely no idea that it had been discussed to death already, glad to see your in agreement about the picture though. Apologies if my posts are annoying you but as today is my first day on the forum i really had stuff i wanted to ask. Again sorry if its getting on anyones tits

Actually, none of what I said was directed at you. You actually had legit questions that should be answered. My gasket blowing had a lot to do with a few factors.

1) Battlestarforum was down, so I went to sci-fi and was disgusted with all of the denial and total misunderstanding of BSG and the latest episode
2) When this site came back up, I saw an alarming amount of noobs spewing the same garbage about "hte fif iz nawt Hellin, itts ______ becuz RDM is tryin to trikc us!" It was total garbage written in a hurry or a drunken haze, with no regard for clarity, spelling, and grammar. Just ticked me off.
3) The link to the "Urf is difrint" thread on sci-fi just topped it.

So, again, kieanp, you did nothing to get my man-tits. Keep asking away.

[Andromeda]

It is earth, but BSG is fiction, after all. In this story we might never have existed on earth. I'm inclined to think that while the planet is ours, Moore wanted to have the freedom to play with belief systems. Dabbing in our cultures and fictionalizing our religions runs the risk of offending audiences, and money is the bottom line. Even if it would be neat to see ourselves mirrored in the show...

Interview with Ron Moore:


That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?

They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth.

[genji2000]

It is earth, but BSG is fiction, after all. In this story we might never have existed on earth. I'm inclined to think that while the planet is ours, Moore wanted to have the freedom to play with belief systems. Dabbing in our cultures and fictionalizing our religions runs the risk of offending audiences, and money is the bottom line. Even if it would be neat to see ourselves mirrored in the show...

Interview with Ron Moore:


That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?

They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth.

But in that quote he deliberately doesn't answer the question and confirm that we won't see another Earth.

[The Dirt]

What struck me as odd is the continuous use of "what the 13th tribe called Earth". RDM says it in the "10 Things" special, Tigh says it in the episode, and RDM repeats in in the podcast. It is clear (to me, at least) that this is Earth, but not our Earth. It is the planet that they were supposed to find based on the Tomb of Athena and the Pythian prophesy, but this is not the same thing that we understood it to be, nor is it the same as what we saw at the end of Crossroads.

I'm glad to see the topic merged with the poll. I voted for yes originally -- which was month ago. I'd switch my vote now.

[PunkMaister]

What struck me as odd is the continuous use of "what the 13th tribe called Earth". RDM says it in the "10 Things" special, Tigh says it in the episode, and RDM repeats in in the podcast. It is clear (to me, at least) that this is Earth, but not our Earth. It is the planet that they were supposed to find based on the Tomb of Athena and the Pythian prophesy, but this is not the same thing that we understood it to be, nor is it the same as what we saw at the end of Crossroads.

I'm glad to see the topic merged with the poll. I voted for yes originally -- which was month ago. I'd switch my vote now.Precisely is just a planet that just happens to bear the same name as our own but was never truly Earth in the first place the end...

[Aegis]

What struck me as odd is the continuous use of "what the 13th tribe called Earth". RDM says it in the "10 Things" special, Tigh says it in the episode, and RDM repeats in in the podcast. It is clear (to me, at least) that this is Earth, but not our Earth. It is the planet that they were supposed to find based on the Tomb of Athena and the Pythian prophesy, but this is not the same thing that we understood it to be, nor is it the same as what we saw at the end of Crossroads.

I'm glad to see the topic merged with the poll. I voted for yes originally -- which was month ago. I'd switch my vote now.

That seems like a possibility. I don't know, I think that would be kind of a cheap move. Is there some reason why the Cylons would name the planet Earth? Just because they thought it sounded like a nice name? Or because the writers felt like pulling the wool over the audiences eyes again?

[Andromeda]

That seems like a possibility. I don't know, I think that would be kind of a cheap move. Is there some reason why the Cylons would name the planet Earth if it were not Earth? Just because they thought it sounded like a nice name? Or because the writers felt like pulling the wool over the audiences eyes again?

Could be many reasons for this. They are reincarnating the old BSG and the search for earth is the premise of that show. Or maybe they did want to pull the wool over our eyes!

[Arista]

I think a common train of thought (misconception, perhaps?) that everyone is working on is that the timeline of BSG is the same as ours. I think it is Earth (our Earth), but an Earth that's in the future. Even the Earth of "2000 years ago" at the time of the nuclear holocaust was a 'future Earth' and not 'our' Earth.

That makes no sense, but meh.

[PunkMaister]

I think a common train of though (misconception, perhaps?) that everyone is working on is that the timeline of BSG is the same as ours. I think it is Earth (our Earth), but an Earth that's in the future. Even the Earth of "2000 years ago" at the time of the nuclear holocaust was a 'future Earth' and not 'our' Earth.

That makes no sense, but meh.
No it does not, sorry...

[bradtem]

Yes, we must watch the pattern of what they say. But you've been burned before. Back when Ron Moore said "It's none of the people in the last supper photo" a lot of people wondered if he was playing a trick, and saying "cylons aren't people" or some other game.

But he wasn't. His statement was plain and true. And Starbuck did die and get reborn/downloaded.

But I would put the "equivocation" theory as this:

There are two planets. There is our planet Earth, the home of mankind. The kobolians were exiled from it, and it became accidentally or deliberately lost to history, but the name remained as a legend.

When the Cylon 13th tribe left Kobol, they found a planet, not the Earth, and they called it Earth. And so the scrolls told that story.

So this is the "Earth" of the scrolls. It is the Earth of the Tomb of Athena. It is the Earth that Starbuck was taken to (obviously). But it's not the Earth we live on, shown at the end of Crossroads.

But there is a problem. We saw constellations like Orion clearly in the sky as they approached their Earth. The ones in the Tomb of Athena look like ours, though some calculate they are different enough to signify this.

And it's a major fake out to have Starbuck say, "I've been to Earth, I'm going to take us there" and then zoom the camera to a different Earth than the one she visited.

I would like this plot to be true, but is it? And why the fake-out? And is there enough time to do yet another arrival at Earth?

Plus, we know it's a dark ending. That demands that the real Earth is also in ruins. It's not going to be a high-tech welcoming civlization that zaps Cavil's fleet for them. It's not going to be a vacant but habitable planet they can live on.

One option: It is high-tech, but the "Go away and don't come back" rule is still in effect. When they try to go to the real Earth, the fleet is destroyed.

[Arista]

When they try to go to the real Earth, the fleet is destroyed.
That's not very welcoming of us. In fact, it's downright xenophobic of us and I can't believe we'd ever act that way.




Oh, wait...

[PunkMaister]

Yes, we must watch the pattern of what they say. But you've been burned before. Back when Ron Moore said "It's none of the people in the last supper photo" a lot of people wondered if he was playing a trick, and saying "cylons aren't people" or some other game.

But he wasn't. His statement was plain and true. And Starbuck did die and get reborn/downloaded.

But I would put the "equivocation" theory as this:

There are two planets. There is our planet Earth, the home of mankind. The kobolians were exiled from it, and it became accidentally or deliberately lost to history, but the name remained as a legend.

When the Cylon 13th tribe left Kobol, they found a planet, not the Earth, and they called it Earth. And so the scrolls told that story.

So this is the "Earth" of the scrolls. It is the Earth of the Tomb of Athena. It is the Earth that Starbuck was taken to (obviously). But it's not the Earth we live on, shown at the end of Crossroads.

But there is a problem. We saw constellations like Orion clearly in the sky as they approached their Earth. The ones in the Tomb of Athena look like ours, though some calculate they are different enough to signify this.

And it's a major fake out to have Starbuck say, "I've been to Earth, I'm going to take us there" and then zoom the camera to a different Earth than the one she visited.

I would like this plot to be true, but is it? And why the fake-out? And is there enough time to do yet another arrival at Earth?

Plus, we know it's a dark ending. That demands that the real Earth is also in ruins. It's not going to be a high-tech welcoming civlization that zaps Cavil's fleet for them. It's not going to be a vacant but habitable planet they can live on.

One option: It is high-tech, but the "Go away and don't come back" rule is still in effect. When they try to go to the real Earth, the fleet is destroyed.

If they are all going to die anyway what is the point, then Dee and Deanna were right all along they should all commit suicide while they still can, it would be the best way for all them to go as the show is just about hiopelessness and despair for hopelessness and despair's sake...

[genji2000]

...this is the "Earth" of the scrolls. It is the Earth of the Tomb of Athena.

Yes.

It is the Earth that Starbuck was taken to (obviously).

Why is it obvious? It's obviously the Earth that original Kara got blasted to (or taken to after her Viper exploded) but it doesn't sound like the Earth that New Kara describes visiting. That sounds more like Crossroads Earth.

But it's not the Earth we live on, shown at the end of Crossroads.

Which is a lot like the one Kara described:

Kara: I followed a heavy Raider into the storm. Took some hits, passed out. When I came to, I was orbiting this planet. Its yellow moon and star matches the description in Pythia. I took these pictures in orbit. The star patterns match what we saw in the Tomb of Athena.

And later:

Kara: I saw Earth. The shape of it, the smell of it. The feel of it on my skin in my pores. And I swear to you, it was like I'd been there before. Like I never left.

The pictures she took were of our hunk of rock and our moon. However, she then goes on to describe a star system we're not familiar with:

Kara: I remember taking the photos. Turning my ship in a reciprocal heading. And then I’m not sure. I must’ve blacked out again. I remember a giant gas planet with rings. I remember a flashing triple star. And a comet. And then I was back with the Fleet.

That sounds more like a forecast of the remains of the Cylon civil war.

And it's a major fake out to have Starbuck say, "I've been to Earth, I'm going to take us there" and then zoom the camera to a different Earth than the one she visited.

I don't think they did.

I would like this plot to be true, but is it? And why the fake-out? And is there enough time to do yet another arrival at Earth?

It took them about half an episode to find and get to the Revelations planet.

[Aegis]

Yes, we must watch the pattern of what they say. But you've been burned before. Back when Ron Moore said "It's none of the people in the last supper photo" a lot of people wondered if he was playing a trick, and saying "cylons aren't people" or some other game.

But he wasn't. His statement was plain and true. And Starbuck did die and get reborn/downloaded.


Your whole post was good, bradtem, but this is a pretty concise rebuttal to the charge that Ron Moore is pulling a fast one in his most recent interview in the Chicago Tribune.

It's really a troubling revelation- that the Earth was inhabited by Cylons before being reduced to an irradiated and uninhabitable hunk of rock- but not for the reasons the show's creators intend. As far as I can tell, from reading Moore's interviews to listening to his most recent podcast episode commentary, the writers are more interested in putting their characters through hellish scenarios and seeing how they react than in putting together a more scientifically grounded story.

[QuantumMechanic]

If they are all going to die anyway what is the point, then Dee and Deanna were right all along they should all commit suicide while they still can, it would be the best way for all them to go as the show is just about hiopelessness and despair for hopelessness and despair's sake...

That pretty much sums up my feeling about the series at this point. BSG started out on as a heroic story of human beings struggling to survive in the face of daunting obstacles, and in spite of their own weaknesses. Over the years the plot has turned increasingly dark and cynical.

What first attracted me to the series was the complexity of the characters, and the strength of the writing. These days it is starting to feel like the creative well is running dry, and Moore is just looking for new rabbits to pull out of his hat and keep viewers from growing bored.

Or maybe Moore is just in a funk and needs to take a happy pill.

[Wouter]

What first attracted me to the series was the complexity of the characters, and the strength of the writing. These days it is starting to feel like the creative well is running dry, and Moore is just looking for new rabbits to pull out of his hat and keep viewers from growing bored.

Indeed. RDM seems to be all about shock tactics, and he doesn't care much about an internally consistent story (let alone a somewhat scientifically accurate one). BSG really took a turn for the worse after the excellent Pegasus arc in mid season 2.

[PunkMaister]

That pretty much sums up my feeling about the series at this point. BSG started out on as a heroic story of human beings struggling to survive in the face of daunting obstacles, and in spite of their own weaknesses. Over the years the plot has turned increasingly dark and cynical.

What first attracted me to the series was the complexity of the characters, and the strength of the writing. These days it is starting to feel like the creative well is running dry, and Moore is just looking for new rabbits to pull out of his hat and keep viewers from growing bored.

Or maybe Moore is just in a funk and needs to take a happy pill.

At this point I think he needs the whole bottle and then some! I gotta tell you that at this point the only hopeful thing the shiow has is Hera and if RDM kills her off, I will probably not watch the show anymore because if I want to get depressed I just turn on the news....

[Creox]

Hi there folks.

This is my first post here and I want to first just tell you a bit about how I got here.

I first saw "33" from a box of popcorn that had a few episodes from a variety of shows.

I had heard of the new BSG but just vaguely. I watched and was hooked. I had seen this after the first two seasons were already out on DVD so I bought those and watched them in a space of a few weeks.

I will say lastly and briefly (so I don't bash the thread) that my overall experience with the show has been fantastic. I watch T.V. rarely but this has grabbed me.

I find the statement about being on green grass as the team were looking for astronomic markers to earth intriguing. It sounds plausible they were on earth while they were looking for it but then how does one make sense of the fact that they would find any markers useless ( they only make sense when one is on earth and the search for it would be ahhh. moot :))

[Pnutmaster]

Hello, Creox. If you'd like, head over to this (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1577&page=14) thread, read the entries of our zany members, and provide your own :)

[bradtem]

Sigh. I was listening to the podcast, and Moore describes the backstory they worked out for the show in it, and says a bunch of other things that can only lead me to the sad conclusion that this is the Earth in the show, that our real Earth is not sitting out there waiting. This is an alternate Earth, made to fit the old BSG mythos (since the real Earth is not, after all, a colony of another planet, and in original BSG it was.)

I have Moore's quotes from the podcast up in my blog. I am not sure if Podcast material counts as spoiler or not. For me it was a spoiler not in the sense of being leaked or unaired material, but in the sense of "damn, the plot's a lot less exciting now."

http://ideas.4brad.com/battlestar/moore-speaks-bsg-backstory-and-fracks-it

Aside from the backstory we also learn something annoying about All Along the Watchtower in this alternate universe.

[The Dirt]

Yeah, RDM blah blah blah. Whine, cry, bitch.

I'm going to reserve judgment on how RDM is fraking with the fans until the show is over.

[Batman316]

Yeah, RDM blah blah blah. Whine, cry, bitch.

I'm going to reserve judgment on how RDM is fraking with the fans until the show is over.

Seems about the safest bet. Have faith in your own convictions people until this whole shindig is over.

[Pnutmaster]

Don't be too quick to dismiss it as an alternate universe, bradtem (if it is, I lose a bet I made with a Canadian friend long ago...lol). Who says the lyrics of All Along the Watchtower couldn't be inspired in one of Earth's futures? (I think Hof or someone else discussed this recently?).

In fact, how is this an alternate universe if RDM repeatedley refers to "our Earth" in interviews?

[bradtem]

Where does he refer to "our Earth" in interviews? The whole point was that a lot of people are noticing he keeps not doing that, he keeps saying "this is the planet the 13th tribe of Cylons named Earth." This is what kept hopes alive that our Earth was out there.

I don't see how you can say, "Anders wrote All Along the Watchtower" if what you mean is that he just thinks he wrote it.

I would like to believe it, I would like to think we can still put this show in our universe, but it's getting harder to see how.

[mermoid]

I've never been that bothered about them finding our Earth anyway. The idea of 'Galactica 2009' doesn't really appeal to me much.

[Pnutmaster]

Where does he refer to "our Earth" in interviews?

That's ThPrime's job :p He's also talked about BSG in relation to our timeline (never said if it was our future or past, but said these were things that the writers had to decide upon). If BSG occurs in an alternate universe, it would seem to be a recent change he made to the series (and a frakking dumb one at that ;))

The whole point was that a lot of people are noticing he keeps not doing that, he keeps saying "this is the planet the 13th tribe of Cylons named Earth." This is what kept hopes alive that our Earth was out there.
I thought the whole point of that was to hint that there is an Earth 2, or simply that "Earths" can be created (which is what Aaron Douglas has said, and I think we can start trusting his spoilers now that half of them have been confirmed).

I would like to believe it, I would like to think we can still put this show in our universe, but it's getting harder to see how.More questions than answers is our lot. Let's ride it out and hope RDM knows what he's doing.

[Batman316]

Let's ride it out and hope RDM knows what he's doing.

So say we all

[ThPrime]

I'm good with the explanation that Revelations and Notion could have served as an alternate ending if required by the strike. Taking that into consideration, you wouldn't really expect the production to serve up something clearly ambiguous or more than slightly odd about the environs of the discovered Earth. That would be like a movie ending with a scene that screams "SEQUEL" with no real chance of a sequel.

Notion was filmed way, way back in December 2007. The "new" season 4.5 episodes begin Friday. If Earth is indeed not our Earth after all, then that series arc begins Friday, will unfold slowly, and not end until the finale. Because it's not about Earth, it's about the larger story.

I wonder if everyone will look the same continuity wise after so a long a break in production. Do a hair check on Starbuck. :)

[Batman316]

Notion was filmed way, way back in December 2007. The "new" season 4.5 episodes begin Friday.

OH, that I didn't know and is a valuable insight.

*writes "Notions" off the list as a pivotal episode. Then the 'reveal' would have been the last thing we ever saw.... god I'm glad they went back into production

[MontyCylon]

Why does Anders need to be the author of All Along The Watchtower?
Think about its function in our society-- it was written by Dylan and popularized (for the most part) by Hendrix, and is the song that practically anyone that plays guitar *has* to know (I'm sorry, if you're teaching basic guitar and don't teach that song, that's like being an English teacher and leaving out a couple of letters of the alphabet).

It's a pretty meaningful song in itself (and if you explicate it the way I did, it has great relevance to the storyline), but it is still just a song. If they had picked "Forever Blowing Bubbles" nobody would give a frak because, what, 2% of the population even knows what that is.

[Gigit]

The earth is a cylon earth, not the human earth. Plus the whole episode where Adama and Starbuck and Rosalin actually go to earth and lie in a grassy field... I dunno doesn't sit right. Also, Ron's answer was very evasive. He says:

That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?
They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth.

Now notice, he doesn't say or even regard if it's the only earth they will see. He only says it's the cylon earth.

[kieanp]

Why does Anders need to be the author of All Along The Watchtower?


They didn't say he was the author just that he played it for them all. I am hoping he just covered it off jimi :D



Saul Tigh: The thirteenth tribe, a tribe of cylons came to this planet and called it earth

See isn't that as vague as RDM.

[Prolescum]

For all intents and purposes, it is Earth. 'We're' not going to be involved in the story, no slow panning past everybody's house as we cheer our long lost cousins' return, no final battle over the international space station; no founding western civilisation. Just a Cylon in New York at an undisclosed point in the story's timeline...

[Creox]

Could it be earth from our future?

We evolve on earth as it is now for us but in the future we develop cylon technology to resurrect ourselves...cheat death.

As this process evolves over a long time many in effect are hybrids or skinjobs ...the ones who are not, humans, rebel and leave for Kobol. Along with them are the final five who may or may not know who and what they are. The are the original humans who developed the technology and secured their immortality. It is only on the cylon earth that they can secure their old memories through a hub perhaps.

it's all I got :D

[Prolescum]

Maybe, but I don't think it's our Earth at all, just the show's earth.

[bradtem]

That's ThPrime's job :p He's also talked about BSG in relation to our timeline (never said if it was our future or past, but said these were things that the writers had to decide upon). If BSG occurs in an alternate universe, it would seem to be a recent change he made to the series (and a frakking dumb one at that ;))



Who is ThPrime? Anyway, if you have some cites on him saying this is our Earth, I would like to read them. He's talked about the connection between the show and our Earth, but it now seems that connection is literary. Ie. on Earth, All Along the Watchtower was written by Dylan. On BSG-Earth it was written by Anders, but the same song is used. So the BSG-Earth is presumably derived, in a literary sense, from the real Earth, but is a fictional planet, populated by alien Cylons rather than native humans. (In other words, SF nonsense, but it's his story to write as he wants.)

[Prolescum]

Brad, go to ThPrime's profile and click statistics. you can look through his posts/threads.
(how creepy is that...)

[Batman316]

For all intents and purposes, it is Earth. 'We're' not going to be involved in the story, no slow panning past everybody's house as we cheer our long lost cousins' return, no final battle over the international space station; no founding western civilisation. Just a Cylon in New York at an undisclosed point in the story's timeline...

an Angel of the Divine Steve in NY is how I took those spoilers :P

I'm pretty sure someone..... The Dirt? maybe.... dunno but someone said thaty RDM implied...... bah..... the podcast thing.... Anders was meant to have 'written' the song......

or something

[Prolescum]

Genji said it earlier today. I think he said that it was inferred that he'd written the song, but said he'd played it for someone he loved. I agree with this.icklepants noted earlier that she heard the head six bell during the shot of Kara holding her old dog tags. I reckon this is the more important musical clue in this episode. I know there's no need for a spoiler tag, but like they say, when in Rome...

[genji2000]

Oh, Brad (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=33834#post33834).

icklepants noted earlier that she heard the head six bell during the shot of Kara holding her old dog tags. I reckon this is the more important musical clue in this episode.

I'd be wary of that. I don't hear it.

[bradtem]

Yes.



Why is it obvious? It's obviously the Earth that original Kara got blasted to (or taken to after her Viper exploded) but it doesn't sound like the Earth that New Kara describes visiting. That sounds more like Crossroads Earth.


Well, it seems very odd if her first body and viper ended up on this Earth and yet she got reborn over a different Earth.

This (blasted) Earth still looks like a pretty blue planet with white clouds from above. It has the same start patterns that Starbuck photographed, and while we don't see the moon, the characters would have noticed the lack of a moon.

No, this is the planet Starbuck flew above. It has to be, the stars can't match otherwise.

If there's another Earth -- and there does not seem to be one -- why does Moore say that Anders wrote All Along the Watchtower? Is this other Earth without Dylan?

[genji2000]

Well, it seems very odd if her first body and viper ended up on this Earth and yet she got reborn over a different Earth.

Sorry - I don't mean to be sarcastic, but: what, and her being reborn doesn't seem odd?

This (blasted) Earth still looks like a pretty blue planet with white clouds from above. It has the same start patterns that Starbuck photographed, and while we don't see the moon, the characters would have noticed the lack of a moon.

If so (and if Pythia's words even seemed important to them, given that they hadn't witnessed the real beauty of our moon as Kara had) then wouldn't they have noticed the lack of a moon and considered it before going down to the surface? If not, why should they notice that it's not there when they're down, shocked at the state of the planet? Possibly someone in Helo's expedition might have noticed or commented but they were focused on their mission to try to find human life.

No, this is the planet Starbuck flew above. It has to be, the stars can't match otherwise.

We don't know that the stars do match (Gaeta said only "visible" constellations were a match, and Kara was even less sure), but even if they do, they only match the view from the Tomb of Athena, which is a view from the Thirteenth Tribe's planet, not necessarily ours. Kara's and Gaeta's matches don't necessarily correlate.

If there's another Earth -- and there does not seem to be one -- why does Moore say that Anders wrote All Along the Watchtower? Is this other Earth without Dylan?

That is yet to be explained, but he assures us it will be before the end of the series.

[thevarrior]

I think the whole Jimi Hendrix In Space song is being taken way too literally. I never once thought it was meant to refer to Dylan or Hendrix IRL.

[genji2000]

I think the whole Jimi Hendrix In Space song is being taken way too literally. I never once thought it was meant to refer to Dylan or Hendrix IRL.

Neither did I but recent RDM comments appear to indicate otherwise.

[QuantumMechanic]

The fact that the original symbols of the 12 tribes, and the names of their colonies, were derived from constellations visible only from Earth implies that the planet has some significance for humanity beyond being the eventual home of the 13th tribe. This implication seems even stronger if the 13th tribe consisted of Cylons rather than humans.

One problem is that we don't realy know why the 13th tribe left Kobol so long before the other 12 tribes. Some clues suggest the 13th tribe left 1,600 years before the exodus of the 12 tribes, and I have trouble believing the war that destroyed Kobol lasted that long.

I lean toward the idea that the 13th tribe abandoned Kobol for religious reasons, perhaps inspired by a new monotheism espoused by the five priests (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Five_priests) devoted to "The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/The_One_Whose_Name_Cannot_Be_Spoken)." Hopefully, the next few episodes will shed some light on the relationship, if any, between the Final Five and those five "priests."

[bradtem]

If so (and if Pythia's words even seemed important to them, given that they hadn't witnessed the real beauty of our moon as Kara had) then wouldn't they have noticed the lack of a moon and considered it before going down to the surface? If not, why should they notice that it's not there when they're down, shocked at the state of the planet? Possibly someone in Helo's expedition might have noticed or commented but they were focused on their mission to try to find human life.


What I'm saying is they must have seen the moon, because if they had not they would have said, "Hey, where's the moon Starbuck and Pythia saw?"




We don't know that the stars do match (Gaeta said only "visible" constellations were a match, and Kara was even less sure), but even if they do, they only match the view from the Tomb of Athena, which is a view from the Thirteenth Tribe's planet, not necessarily ours. Kara's and Gaeta's matches don't necessarily correlate.


I've seen this a lot, and trust me, I'm reasonably versed in astronomy, and let me assure you, if the constellations match (constellations are only drawn in visible stars, though our modern definitions catalog all of them) then they are at the one and only star system where they would match.

Gaeta checks it twice. It is 99.9999999% certain that they are at the planet that Starbuck photographed from her magic viper.

And also the planet in the Tomb of Athena. Moore has said that this is without question the Earth they were looking for. The only doubt in our minds is, "is there another Earth, the real one?" And I was hoping for that, until he started saying that Anders wrote All along the Watchtower.



That is yet to be explained, but he assures us it will be before the end of the series.
All he has promised explanation of is the fact that 2,000 years ago is also the time of the fall of Kobol.

In fact, based on his leaving #3 behind because Lawless isn't in the show again, it sounds like they may never return to Earth.

[bradtem]

The fact that the original symbols of the 12 tribes, and the names of their colonies, were derived from constellations visible only from Earth implies that the planet has some significance for humanity beyond being the eventual home of the 13th tribe. This implication seems even stronger if the 13th tribe consisted of Cylons rather than humans.



This was why most of the careful watchers of the show were certain Earth would be special, would be the homeworld of mankind, as it is in real life. And why we're pissed when Moore starts saying that's not how it's going to be.

I hope he explains those flags, but I am no longer sure they are the key to the backstory.

[genji2000]

This weekend he said:

I've personally been fascinated/obsessed with the song for years and always wanted to do something that used it in a new way. The relationship of the song to the show will be illuminated when all is said and done. The network didn't really know where we were going to but were willing to go there with us and by the time I provided the final story arc, they understood where and how it fit into our mythology.

[Vesihiisi]

The fact that the original symbols of the 12 tribes, and the names of their colonies, were derived from constellations visible only from Earth implies that the planet has some significance for humanity beyond being the eventual home of the 13th tribe. This implication seems even stronger if the 13th tribe consisted of Cylons rather than humans.

I hope he explains those flags, but I am no longer sure they are the key to the backstory.I still like to think that humanity arose on Earth, colonised Kobol, created the exhibit in the Tomb of Athena to honour their place of origin, and used the star patterns seen from Earth on their flags. Then, when the 13th tribe left, they took their navigational clues from the temple, refound Earth, and documented in their scrolls that the star patterns from the temple were indeed accurate.

And also the planet in the Tomb of Athena. Moore has said that this is without question the Earth they were looking for. The only doubt in our minds is, "is there another Earth, the real one?" And I was hoping for that, until he started saying that Anders wrote All along the Watchtower.I wouldn't be concerned about that: See here (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=41189&postcount=72).

[Arista]

This weekend he said:
I've personally been fascinated/obsessed with the song for years and always wanted to do something that used it in a new way. The relationship of the song to the show will be illuminated when all is said and done. The network didn't really know where we were going to but were willing to go there with us and by the time I provided the final story arc, they understood where and how it fit into our mythology.
Well, the song is about the desire for the establishment of a new system of social values based on the worth of life and the conflict that will inevitably occur because of this. Makes sense to me how it fits in with the theme of the show.

[Pnutmaster]

I had a similar thought, Ves. How though does their confirmation reach Kobol and enter the Pythian Scrolls?

[Vesihiisi]

Apparently somebody at some point did return from Earth to Kobol with the news, or we wouldn't have the scrolls. Perhaps that may be linked to the beacon virus appearing on Kobol, who knows. If that is the case, it may be possible to speculate that Pythia was a member of the 13th tribe who wrote the scrolls on Earth 3,600 years ago, and they were brought to Kobol some 600 years later.

It is also strange that in several places there are references to 13 tribes taking part in the exodus of 2,000 years ago. Taken as a literal truth, it could mean that only part of the 13th tribe originally left, or a sizeable faction returned.

[Prolescum]

Maybe Ellen is Pythia... Oooh.

[bradtem]

I wouldn't be concerned about that: See here (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=41189&postcount=72).

No, sorry, that explanation doesn't work for me. If this story is in the future of our world, our planet, no matter how far in the future, and Anders plays a song word for word, note for note as a Dylan song, then it makes no sense to say he wrote it. At best he unconsciously covered it, and in a way far beyond the way George Harrison redid He's So Fine.

I guess my hope would be that Moore comes back and says, "Anders and the other 13th tribers *think* he wrote it" because I can go with that, though I had a preferable story.

But as yet he has not said that.

[Pnutmaster]

I wonder if RDM knows how much fan blood will be spilled over that song. Damn him and his obsessions.

[Vesihiisi]

No, sorry, that explanation doesn't work for me. If this story is in the future of our world, our planet, no matter how far in the future, and Anders plays a song word for word, note for note as a Dylan song, then it makes no sense to say he wrote it. At best he unconsciously covered it, and in a way far beyond the way George Harrison redid He's So Fine.Ok, no argument. I just thought that it might be unreasonable to expect RDM to compose a new song of the same quality to be the original work of Anders.

[genji2000]

Maybe Ellen is Pythia... Oooh.

Oooh (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?p=19511#post19511). Sounds daft. Probably is. Maybe not.

[Prolescum]

Oooh. Sounds daft. Probably is. Maybe not.
Same mental process I went through...

[Hofner1962]

Anders plays a song word for word, note for note as a Dylan song
I think it has been decided that Anders does not play it note for note as has been so excellently fanwanked in the subtopic highlighted by the following posts: (for anyone so inclined)

Starts at the end of the first post :)
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40453&postcount=16
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40575&postcount=38
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40576&postcount=39
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40587&postcount=40
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40595&postcount=41
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40600&postcount=42
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40601&postcount=43
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40605&postcount=45
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40609&postcount=46
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40756&postcount=70
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40768&postcount=75
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40827&postcount=82
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40830&postcount=83
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=40953&postcount=88

[Prolescum]

Dude, you should check those links...

[Hofner1962]

Dude, you should check those links...

Thanks - I fixed them. Stupid mistake

[Prolescum]

No sweat, compadre.

[Vesihiisi]

Concerning the route from Kobol to Earth, I wonder if anybody has a strong opinion on this:

The Temple of Jupiter, or at least the mandala in it, was apparently set up as a marker pointing to the nova that formed the Ionian Nebula. Is it more likely, that whoever did it wanted to point to where they were going to, or where they were coming from?

I haven't come to any conclusion about which might make more sense.

One thing that came to me is, that the mandala would have been most relevant as a signpost 4,000 years ago, when the nova was seen on the algae planet. With faster-than-light travel, anybody coming from the direction of the Ionian nebula to the algae planet prior to 4,000 years ago would already be aware of the nova and would be able to know precisely when it would be seen on the planet. But I have no idea if that might be relevant at all.

[Pnutmaster]

I riddled with this in one of the "Timeline" threads. If we know the Sacred Scrolls are 3600 years old, we can reasonably assume the Thirteenth Tribe left Kobol 400 years earlier, bringing them to the Algae planet at 4000 B.P. There is one technical problem. For the Temple of Five to be mentioned in the Sacred Scrolls, someone from the Thirteenth Tribe would have to return to Kobol within 400 years and tell them about it. In light of that thought, I'm more in favor, however greatly perplexed, of the idea that the Temple of Five was constructed on a voyage to Kobol.

Now, as BSG has demonstrated, you can't find a planet solely with astronomical readings. The Thirteenth Tribe would have effectively been in the same position as the Fleet when they left Kobol. Perhaps the Temple of Five inadvertantly acted as a marker, when the builders had merely intended it to harness the power of the Nova. Why the Five Priests needed a Nova to reveal their identities to future visitors, or how they even knew it would is beyond me.

[Vesihiisi]

I riddled with this in one of the "Timeline" threads.Right. I thought there was one, but was perplexed not find it when I looked closely at the thread list. Now I see that it is in the spoilers section, which I did not suspect. Sorry about that. I would not mind if a moderator waved a magic wand on this.

In light of that thought, I'm more in favor, however greatly perplexed, of the idea that the Temple of Five was constructed on a voyage to Kobol.That echoes my thoughts. If put against the wall, I might suggest that the Temple was built by the original colonists from Earth on their way to Kobol, as a reminder of the way back home, but that may not give adequate time for developing a decent civilization on Kobol.

[genji2000]

Nice post. I appreciate it. Allow me to retort.

I riddled with this in one of the "Timeline" threads. If we know the Sacred Scrolls are 3600 years old, we can reasonably assume the Thirteenth Tribe left Kobol 400 years earlier,

Is that right or are you ill-informedly guessing? I'm under the impression (mostly from forum chat) that the Thirteenth Tribe left Kobol 3,600 years ago. If the cycle is every two thousand years rather than just however much time it takes for a cycle to complete then the Thirteenth Tribe may have tried once before to break the cycle.

bringing them to the Algae planet at 4000 B.P. There is one technical problem. For the Temple of Five to be mentioned in the Sacred Scrolls,

Which it never is, is it?

someone from the Thirteenth Tribe would have to return to Kobol within 400 years and tell them about it.

We will see. I agree and think someone has to return to Kobol after the Thirteenth Tribe leaves, despite the (mainly Brad) assertion that there's no need (because humanity came from Earth, which I think is right).

In light of that thought, I'm more in favor, however greatly perplexed, of the idea that the Temple of Five was constructed on a voyage to Kobol.

Veshiisi and Brad have mostly nailed down that the markers were left on a voyage from Earth to Kobol. Brad thinks this is the original voyage. I'm not sure. Maybe one or more subsequent voyages to try to warn the Kobollians?

Now, as BSG has demonstrated, you can't find a planet solely with astronomical readings. The Thirteenth Tribe would have effectively been in the same position as the Fleet when they left Kobol. Perhaps the Temple of Five inadvertantly acted as a marker, when the builders had merely intended it to harness the power of the Nova. Why the Five Priests needed a Nova to reveal their identities to future visitors, or how they even knew it would is beyond me.

Dates (off the top of my head - please correct if wrong):

4,000 years ago: Temple of Five constructed.
3,600 years ago: Thirteenth Tribe leave Kobol.
3,000 years ago: contaminated beacon left.
2,000 years ago: Twelve Tribes leave Kobol.
2,000 years ago: Thirteenth Tribe (or their mechanical slaves) destroy themselves.

Anything else?

[Vesihiisi]

Essentially I agree with your dates, with the following refinements:

To the best of my recollection, 3,600 years ago was when Pythia was said to have written the scrolls. But assuming that they did not take centuries to make their voyages, it is by inference probably also very close to the date of the 13th tribe going from Kobol to Earth, although that trip could have been perhaps made a little earlier.

There is always the possibility that the beacon was left earlier and only contaminated at around 3,000 years ago.

[Pnutmaster]

Is that right or are you ill-informedly guessing? I'm under the impression (mostly from forum chat) that the Thirteenth Tribe left Kobol 3,600 years ago. If the cycle is every two thousand years rather than just however much time it takes for a cycle to complete then the Thirteenth Tribe may have tried once before to break the cycle.

That was originally an idea of ThPrime's. Gives the Temple of Five a logical place on the timeline.

Veshiisi and Brad have mostly nailed down that the markers were left on a voyage from Earth to Kobol. Brad thinks this is the original voyage. I'm not sure. Maybe one or more subsequent voyages to try to warn the Kobollians?Here's a problem with that theory. The Temple of Five is built in 4000 B.C (before Caprica. before Pythia is wrong). Are we suggesting Kobol is colonized sometime later (give or take 5 years to reach Kobol from the algae planet), and the Thirteenth Tribe expelled by 3600 B.C? Moreover, if the Temple of Five is built to reveal the identities of five Cylons, that means Cylons existed before Kobol was colonized (though they can very well exist if the Cycle has been going on for tens of thousands of years).

Here is something that confuses me.

"And the great ship was the galleon (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Galleon) that departed from here, where we're standing. And it took the founders of the thirteen colonies to their destiny. And those that didn't board the galleon took the high road, a rocky ridge that lead to the tomb." (Sacred Scrolls (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Sacred_Scrolls))

Thirteen Colonies? Is Pythia saying Thirteen Tribes all left together on the galleon?

Billy: Well, we won't know for sure until we send a ground team, but the initial estimates have it on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
Elosha: That's around the time the thirteen tribes first left Kobol.First?

[genji2000]

Thirteen Colonies? Is Pythia saying Thirteen Tribes all left together on the galleon?

Or that the founder of the Thirteenth Tribe did not leave Kobol when they left?

First?

Good point. Does Pythia know more than she's letting on?

[Pnutmaster]

Or that the founder of the Thirteenth Tribe did not leave Kobol when they left?

Possibly, but she says founders of the Thirteen Colonies. One person can't found a colony by himself :p

Good point. Does Pythia know more than she's letting on?That, or we have more exoduses going on than we know what to do with.

[Vesihiisi]

Thirteen Colonies? Is Pythia saying Thirteen Tribes all left together on the galleon?Athena on Kobol also mentions thirteen, but I can't remember her exact words.

I am inclined to believe that at least some representative of the 13th tribe was on Kobol at the time of the exodus. Perhaps there were two factions to the tribe.

One of the extremely speculative ideas I have posted elsewhere (On the nature of cylons) is that if there happened to be two factions, and one of them involved the Final Five, maybe the second had something to do with the other seven models.

Here's a problem with that theory. The Temple of Five is built in 4000 B.C (before Caprica. before Pythia is wrong). Are we suggesting Kobol is colonized sometime later (give or take 5 years to reach Kobol from the algae planet), and the Thirteenth Tribe expelled by 3600 B.C? Moreover, if the Temple of Five is built to reveal the identities of five Cylons, that means Cylons existed before Kobol was colonized (though they can very well exist if the Cycle has been going on for tens of thousands of years).I agree, that the timing is pretty intense, but it is not impossible. Especially if the cylons already existed and were originally created on Earth specifically for the purpose of colonisation. Still, there would be many questions left open, and it is not clear if that scenario can be neatly packaged into a proper theory.

The opera house expansion, though, could also have been a later addition to the temple that was originally set up as a way sign. (just speculating)

[bradtem]

It is inconsistent, but nothing requires the entire 13th tribe (ie. this type of Cylon) to have left for Earth. And clearly some of them came back, to tell the story to Pythia, and somebody created the Tomb of Athena after all of this with a starmap to the 13th colony.

There are a few things as well we can't necessarily assume:

1) The 13th tribe might not have been 100% Cylon when it left, even if it was thousands of years later. Though Moore does seem to say that it was in the podcast.

2) Pythia wrote the story of the 13th tribe 3,600 years before the present, but that story could take place any time prior to that, it could even be ancient at the time she wrote about it. The characters say at various times that 4,000 years and 3,000 years are consistent with the travels of the tribe -- records are sketchy.


But I still don't understand -- why is the sky over the 13th colony/Earth on the flags of the 12 tribes? It requires that the 12 tribe culture must have come from the 13th colony.

[Pnutmaster]

2) Pythia wrote the story of the 13th tribe 3,600 years before the present, but that story could take place any time prior to that, it could even be ancient at the time she wrote about it. The characters say at various times that 4,000 years and 3,000 years are consistent with the travels of the tribe -- records are sketchy.

But I still don't understand -- why is the sky over the 13th colony/Earth on the flags of the 12 tribes? It requires that the 12 tribe culture must have come from the 13th colony.

Well said, brad. I've been trying to align the story of the 13th tribe with the dating of the Temple of Five, but another idea comes to mind. What if the story of the 13th Tribe (i.e., the tribe that did leave Kobol for Earth) has been confused with the story of the original exodus from Earth, tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of years ago? Pythia mistakes those original settlers for the 13th Tribe when they were actually no tribe but refugees from Earth.

[DigificWriter]

Inconsistencies in Pythia's scriptural accounts can be attributed to the fact that they ARE scriptural accounts, rather than accounts written down in a journal. My current theory about the timeline and how things shake out is as follows:
* 4,000 years before the present day events of BSG, the 13th Tribe leaves Kobol in search of a new home.

* 400 years later, Pythia records an account of the 13th Tribe's exodus and journey.

* 600 years later, one or more members of the 13th Tribe return to Kobol, bringing with them a map of the night sky as seen from Earth, and depositing a beacon marker in the Lion's Head Nebula to mark the way to their new home.

* 1,000 years later, the Gods evict humanity from Kobol, and Pythia writes of a 'blaze' that pursued the refugees to the Galleon that took them out into the stars. Simultaneously, a nuclear holocaust strikes Earth and wipes out the members of the 13th Tribe.

[Pnutmaster]

Not a bad thought, DigimonWriter. We've practically ignored the Lion's Head nebula. I like how you've aligned it into the timeline.

[BSGfan-atic]

Now that we are getting our events lined up, one point I would like to bring up now, is that of interior decorating. In Adama's quarters on the Galactica, there are a number of ancient artifacts. Things such as a Roman legionaire's helmet, a Japanese samurai helmet, and a model of a sailing ship.

Why would a space-faring civilization, especially one that would need spaceships to go back and forth between Earth, Kobol, and the Twelve Colonies, plus who knows how many other places out there, have artifacts like these? If they actually went through the stages of development represented by those artifacts, then how did they cross space? Did they cross space, set up shop, gradually lose their original knowledge, and then start over, as the ATHHBAWHA saying would seem to suggest? If the artifacts are based on memories from their previous cycles of rise and fall, then wouldn't they then have clearer memories of the changes in the cycles?

I looked for other threads that might have answered this question, but didn't get any results. My apologies if this has been discussed before, in another thread.

[CalUK1986]

Maybe they are replicas of what they think are Kobolian artifacts, but are actually of Earth.

[Pnutmaster]

Now that we are getting our events lined up, one point I would like to bring up now, is that of interior decorating. In Adama's quarters on the Galactica, there are a number of ancient artifacts. Things such as a Roman legionaire's helmet, a Japanese samurai helmet, and a model of a sailing ship.


I remember noticing swords in his quarters, but Roman and Japanese artifacts? Screenshots or death.

[bradtem]

Colonial civilization obviously fell and rose, maybe more than once, since the exodus. The exodus was in starships. These folks don't look like they have had starships for 2,000 years.

Falling and rising happens a lot in this show.

Another note: I do not think Pythia wrote of the exodus to the colonies, 1,600 years after her book, unless she's a Cylon or Lord of Kobol.

But her book is thick. It is a mythology. One thing however is not a myth, and it's the holoprojector in that tomb. That's real, and high-tech (higher tech than the colonials have.)

They didn't date it, but they believe the death of Athena is 2,000 years ago. That date seems likely to be gotten right.

So somebody, with high tech, and a starmap from Earth, made that holo-room and the arrow to activate it.

[stavrosg]

I remember noticing swords in his quarters, but Roman and Japanese artifacts? Screenshots or death.
Check the auction catalog, pages 266-279. It's all there, in detail.

[Pnutmaster]

Check the auction catalog, pages 266-279. It's all there, in detail.

Wish I had one :( Mind scanning and uploading a low res (so Joe and Co. don't freak) snap of the Roman and Japanese artifacts?

[The Dirt]

It's on der veb site. Here (http://www.battlestarprops.com/downloads/BSG_auction_catalog.pdf)

[Vesihiisi]

And clearly some of them came back, to tell the story to Pythia, and somebody created the Tomb of Athena after all of this with a starmap to the 13th colony.But I still don't understand -- why is the sky over the 13th colony/Earth on the flags of the 12 tribes? It requires that the 12 tribe culture must have come from the 13th colony.I take it, that you don't see it likely that the Tomb of Athena and it's star map could have existed before the 13th tribe left, possibly taking their own navigational clues from the same map. Anyway, the whole name "Athena's Tomb" seems to me like a later fabrication, as Athena apparently died only 2,000 years ago during the exodus, and it really seems to me almost like a museum exhibit about the origins of the twelve tribes, that could have been set up soon after the original colonisation of Kobol.

[Pnutmaster]

Anyway, the whole name "Athena's Tomb" seems to me like a later fabrication, as Athena apparently died only 2,000 years ago during the exodus, and it really seems to me almost like a museum exhibit about the origins of the twelve tribes, that could have been set up soon after the original colonisation of Kobol.

An original idea, but how do you explain the Arrow of Apollo? Settlers were polytheists upon landing?

[genji2000]

The Arrow of Apollo could have pre-dated the Tomb of Athena. The builders of the tomb would only need to have known the properties of the arrow in order to construct the tomb to respond to its presence.

I wonder if there were many artefacts from Kobol in Caprican museums?

[bradtem]

This is possible. All we have now is the story that the humans lived on Kobol in paradise with the Gods. Some Gods wanted to expel the tribes. Athena didn't want it to happen. When it happened she threw herself off a cliff. And then a tomb was built.

This could be allegorical. The Tomb could be old, predate her death, if there really was an Athena and she really did die. But for now this is what we have to go on.

However, whenever it was built, it was built when somebody brought a star map from Earth back to Kobol. And since the tomb diagrams match the sky above nuked-planet, nuked-planet is (as Ron Moore has declared) the Earth of their scriptures, and the Earth of that tomb.

So you don't really want to put that tomb back further in time than the Cylon colonization of nuked-Earth.

[Creox]

This is possible. All we have now is the story that the humans lived on Kobol in paradise with the Gods. Some Gods wanted to expel the tribes. Athena didn't want it to happen. When it happened she threw herself off a cliff. And then a tomb was built.

This could be allegorical. The Tomb could be old, predate her death, if there really was an Athena and she really did die. But for now this is what we have to go on.

However, whenever it was built, it was built when somebody brought a star map from Earth back to Kobol. And since the tomb diagrams match the sky above nuked-planet, nuked-planet is (as Ron Moore has declared) the Earth of their scriptures, and the Earth of that tomb.

So you don't really want to put that tomb back further in time than the Cylon colonization of nuked-Earth.



That makes sense but it brings to mind the phrase "this will happen again and again and again."

Now...how bloody long are we talking about here? infinitely? more than 4000 yrs.

Are we at the middle or end of this cycle etc etc.

GAH!

[Vesihiisi]

However, whenever it was built, it was built when somebody brought a star map from Earth back to Kobol. And since the tomb diagrams match the sky above nuked-planet, nuked-planet is (as Ron Moore has declared) the Earth of their scriptures, and the Earth of that tomb.

So you don't really want to put that tomb back further in time than the Cylon colonization of nuked-Earth.Actually I do, because the entrance to the the tomb is full of stuff from the zodiac, presumably as symbols of the twelve tribes, whose original flag patterns and the star patterns they refer to, are the seen in the actual exhibit. Nowhere in the tomb is there anything in sight, that would directly refer to the thirteenth tribe or their adventures as an inspiration for building the tomb. The reference is only made in the scriptures, that probably were written by a member of the 13th tribe.

I still maintain as the simplest explanation, that the original colonists on Kobol came from the now nuked planet, which was later rediscovered by the thirteenth tribe, who used the old star patterns from the tomb to their advantage, and wrote in their scriptures, that the ancient tomb is a valid map of where they went to.

[bradtem]

Well, now that I have learned that the star patterns on the flags/in the tombs only match 4 of the constellations on nuked planet sky, this leads a lot more credit into the tomb not being built as a map to the 13th colony. Which could make it older. But I don't have specific reason to doubt that the name implies it was built around the time of the story of the death of Athena. But nothing in the scriptures is reliable.

[genji2000]

Well, now that I have learned that the star patterns on the flags/in the tombs only match 4 of the constellations on nuked planet sky,

No, they only match four constellations from the planet Kara visited - the one with the moon. They match all the visible constellations of the nuked planet.

this leads a lot more credit into the tomb not being built as a map to the 13th colony.

No, it lends credence to the idea of the tomb map being built as a map to the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth.

Which could make it older. But I don't have specific reason to doubt that the name implies it was built around the time of the story of the death of Athena. But nothing in the scriptures is reliable.

Some things (or all things) in the scriptures are reliable, just not interpreted correctly.

[earthdaddy]

I think it is the home of the 13th Colony and the final five. I think they called it Earth. But I do not think it is the Earth you and I live on.

[genji2000]

I think it is the home of the 13th Colony and the final five. I think they called it Earth. But I do not think it is the Earth you and I live on.

I agree.

[bradtem]

No, they only match four constellations from the planet Kara visited - the one with the moon. They match all the visible constellations of the nuked planet.
.

Are you just asserting that or do you have a reason to back that up? We don't seem to have enough information to know. They deleted the two lines that reveal that the tomb and Starbuck's photos are not a full match from the show, for reasons yet to be learned.

Gaeta should have said "it matches both sets" or "one but not the other."

Now, as for where Starbuck went, you are suggesting that whoever did that took the original ruined Starbuck to one Earth (13th colony) but took the recreated Starbuck to a different Earth (ours), and then created a link between the two vipers, and put music in the final five's heads to make them congregate at the new viper. Further, the planet Starbuck visited matches the description in Pythia, and it's well confirmed that the ruined Earth of the 13th colony is the Earth of Pythia, even if it is possibly not the Earth of the Tomb/flags.

Now add to this that whoever did this put the ruined viper and magic FTL beacon on the ruined Earth, right next to where the Final Five died in the war.

For the plus side of your theory, after photographing the Earth that matches the description of Pythia ("yellow moon"?) they do take Starbuck to the Cylon battle site, which may be real Earth.

But why doesn't Starbuck say, "Hey, that's not the same moon as I saw?" or "Hey, let's compare these stars to the stars I photographed!"

Do you suggest both planets have an identical moon, so if you hold up Starbuck's photo, you will think it's the same?

[Pnutmaster]

Gaeta should have said "it matches both sets" or "one but not the other."Why? Total buzzkill, bra. He was caught in the excitement before anyone else, being the one to confirm the constellations. Probably said what came to his mind first while restraining the impulse to scream and celebrate in the process.

Now, as for where Starbuck went, you are suggesting that whoever did that took the original ruined Starbuck to one Earth (13th colony) but took the recreated Starbuck to a different Earth (ours)Rather then fret over two Earths, why not say that Kara's entire flight over Earth was an induced vision/hallucination? Sure, she has photos. She also has a brand new Viper. Anything could have been fabricated by the faction that "recreated" her.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

In case you didn't get the memo [about the TPS reports], the 13th Colony were Cylons from Kobol that settled on a planet called Earth, which is the whole exodus thing that Pythia talked about some 3600 years ago.

[genji2000]

Are you just asserting that or do you have a reason to back that up?

I'm playing devil's advocate. We simply don't know which Earth Kara visited. I think I've already said I agree with you that she died and was reborn on the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth (although I think what she saw was Earth in the previous cycle, and new Kara is Kara from the previous cycle) but we just don't know for sure. So if you say the tomb now doesn't match the Thirteenth Tribe's Earth then I think you should allow for the possibility that it does. You think you have enough information to deduce the answer but the information really hasn't been released yet. Basically if you speculate then I speculate.

We don't seem to have enough information to know.

Sorry... I should have read this bit first. Yes, exactly.

They deleted the two lines that reveal that the tomb and Starbuck's photos are not a full match from the show, for reasons yet to be learned.

Gaeta should have said "it matches both sets" or "one but not the other."

Gaeta should have said whatever the Writers wanted him to say, which is what he did. It was a great line. Watching that scene I truly believed. Only in later analysis did I realise his assurance was compromised by "visible".

Now, as for where Starbuck went, you are suggesting that whoever did that took the original ruined Starbuck to one Earth (13th colony)

Yes... probably.

but took the recreated Starbuck to a different Earth (ours),

Not definitely. It's a possibility. It depends if she saw our Earth now or the Thirteenth Tribes Earth in the previous cycle (pre-holocaust). WTF the moon is doing I don't know. We are all hanging on for a 'leaving Earth' shot in the next episode but if it doesn't come (or does but does show the moon) then we're none the wiser.

and then created a link between the two vipers,

More activated the distress beacon (I can't remember what they call it in the show) on the old smashed-up Viper. The mystery is around why only the new Viper can receive that signal.

and put music in the final five's heads to make them congregate at the new viper.

I have said before that I think the only reason for coming to Earth was to awaken the Final Five (i.e. four of them), that I think this must be their doing (excepting that they are pawns in the game just as the Colonials and the new Cylons are), and that therefore they must have controlled the Kara deathswitch (excepting that they're pawns etc.).

Further, the planet Starbuck visited matches the description in Pythia,

Yes.

and it's well confirmed that the ruined Earth of the 13th colony is the Earth of Pythia, even if it is possibly not the Earth of the Tomb/flags.

No. The ruined Earth of the Thirteenth Tribe is the Earth of the Sacred Scrolls (Miniseries). The later (Season One) references to the Book of Pythia speak of the Promised Land. The Colonials (including Roslin and even Elosha) consider these to be one and the same. I don't. Pythia writes of our Earth. The Sacred Scrolls speak of a planet the Thirteenth Tribe settled on (and) named Earth.

Now add to this that whoever did this put the ruined viper and magic FTL beacon on the ruined Earth, right next to where the Final Five died in the war.

For the plus side of your theory,

It's not a theory. I'm not being sarcastic, truly, but it doesn't answer 1/10th of your questions and I think to be called a theory it has to accommodate much more than 'Earth'. I prefer to think of it as random thoughts.

after photographing the Earth that matches the description of Pythia ("yellow moon"?) they do take Starbuck to the Cylon battle site, which may be real Earth.]

Real SOLar system, possibly, yes.

But why doesn't Starbuck say, "Hey, that's not the same moon as I saw?" or "Hey, let's compare these stars to the stars I photographed!"

We're repeating the same arguments now. I say that (for dramatic reasons) she had way too much on her mind (as did the rest of the fleet) to consider the declination of the moon.

Do you suggest both planets have an identical moon, so if you hold up Starbuck's photo, you will think it's the same?

No. I think the nuked planet has no moon.

I don't have answers. I don't stick to theories come rain or shine. Every new episode changes my mind. I'm guessing at the picture but I still have nine episodes worth of jigsaw pieces to collect. I just think you're in the same boat and I think we all need to consider all the sides of the arguments. I'm very respectful of the ideas on your blog and that's why I think it's worth arguing against you, even if I'm wrong.

[Vesihiisi]

My view is, that until I see compelling evidence to the contrary, I am assuming that all Earths are one:
- our Earth, (assuming we share the same universe with BSG, as the end of season 3 suggests)
- the Earth where the original colonists on Kobol came from, (assuming humanity in BSG began on Earth)
- the Earth where the 13th tribe travelled to, as told in the scriptures,
- the Earth shown at the end of season 3,
- the Earth Kara photographed,
- the Earth the fleet has found.

I view that as the simplest alternative. Sure, it may not have to be so, but I see no compelling reason why it could not. Having said that, I am keeping an eye open for anything that could suggest that there would have to be more than one "Earth".

[bradtem]

Not definitely. It's a possibility. It depends if she saw our Earth now or the Thirteenth Tribes Earth in the previous cycle (pre-holocaust). WTF the moon is doing I don't know. We are all hanging on for a 'leaving Earth' shot in the next episode but if it doesn't come (or does but does show the moon) then we're none the wiser.


More activated the distress beacon (I can't remember what they call it in the show) on the old smashed-up Viper. The mystery is around why only the new Viper can receive that signal.



No. The ruined Earth of the Thirteenth Tribe is the Earth of the Sacred Scrolls (Miniseries). The later (Season One) references to the Book of Pythia speak of the Promised Land. The Colonials (including Roslin and even Elosha) consider these to be one and the same. I don't. Pythia writes of our Earth. The Sacred Scrolls speak of a planet the Thirteenth Tribe settled on (and) named Earth.



No. I think the nuked planet has no moon.



I really can't credit that they would not notice the lack of a moon. I mean, it's the fracking moon. It's impossible to miss. Especially if it's one of the main things in the description in the scrolls. If they validated against the flags, they would also check for yellow moon and star. If they validated against Starbuck's photos, it's the same world and thus has that moon.

As I said, one odd thing about the distress beacon is that they pick it up light years away. The colonials don't have FTL radio. People debate if the Cylons do or not.

But what I meant ot say is that in Moore's interviews, he has conclusively said this is the Earth of the 13th tribe, the one in the scrolls. The story of the 13th colony, as I recall is in Pythia, but I guess I haven't made a detailed study of what's where. Obviously they have been there a while before being nuked.

[ThPrime]

The Moon is large but the Moon is also far away. Telephoto lenses are almost always used in orbit to take interesting dramatic pictures of the Moon. Here's a very rare wide angle shot from low Earth orbit without any magnification. BSG almost always uses a virtual naked eye documentary style for its external space scenes. If they go with accuracy over dramatic license this is roughly what you would see.

Nasa Human Space Flight Gallery: STS-91 Shuttle Mission Imagery: STS091-711-028 (http://www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-91/html/91711028.html)

I would guess, even in HD, they could a show a generic moon and have it be completely unidentifiable. I hope not. Remember we know what the Moon looks like, our heroes do not unless Pythia included an illustration.

[bradtem]

What I mean is, since the moon is one of the key features in Pythia, and as you say people are wary of Starbuck, there is no way they would not notice the lack of a moon. That planet has to have one. One or two might not notice it, but all of them? All the Cylons? All the scientists? Starbuck herself? There has to be a moon on that planet. Whether it looks like our moon is another story.

[Vesihiisi]

Concerning the moon, until they explicitly state that they could not find one, I follow the guidance of (I cant recall the exact phrasing): Lack of evidence is not evidence of non-existence.

[Mingus]

Regarding the FTL radio thing, it looks like the Viper had been there for a few years, so depending on how far away they were, that might not even be an issue. Or who knows...the 'activating signal' for sending Anders and Co. to the new Viper, before they were ID'd as Cylons, might have been the distress signal itself reaching that part of space for the first time.

[bradtem]

That viper just left Galactica about 3 months ago, so since there are, thanks the gods, no time warps in this show, it is not more than 3 months old. Unless you want to advance that it is also a fake viper, and the Starbuck body, another duplicated body.

I dunno. I would find it a stretch that stellar navigators could conceivably miss the moon, or the absence of the moon, as it has been established that this is one of the key features of the Earth system. These are not ordinary people. These are people who do stellar navigation for a living, who have been asked to check their work. If the description of Earth says "giant moon" and Starbuck's photos say "giant moon" I would be shocked if they later say, "You know, we forgot to notice there was no moon."

Our moon, we think, is quite unusual, the result of an interplanetary collision between two large planets. We don't yet know it's unusual for this to happen, but we do believe that systems like Earth-Moon (two reasonably large rocky planets, this is really a dual planet system) do not form in the ordinary events of planet coalescing.

The moon in Starbuck's photos looks a little like our moon, in partial lunar eclipse. That's rather strange, since lunar eclipses happen typically 0 to 5 hours out of any year -- the odds of arriving during one by chance are slim, but not zero. Unless this moon is much closer to the planet, or in a much more regular orbit.

[Mingus]

But it seems there is some sort of time warping, somewhere. Starbuck thought she'd been gone for only 6 hours, and saw a green/blue Earth. Assuming she crashed on the same planet she described, there's a discrepancy somewhere.

[genji2000]

Starbuck thought she'd been gone six hours whilst two months had passed for the fleet. Either she was on ice for about sixty days or time passed much more slowly for her and the holy viper in whatever state of grace and transcendance she was in.

[bradtem]

Don't recall her mentioning a green planet, though in fact this planet is green, in spite of how they photographed the scenes, if the life is anything like we know. The city was a wasteland but not far away, Strarbuck was running through fields of tall grass, with trees behind her. Winter in this area, perhaps, but it was green just a season ago.

[genji2000]

Don't recall her mentioning a green planet, though in fact this planet is green, in spite of how they photographed the scenes, if the life is anything like we know. The city was a wasteland but not far away, Strarbuck was running through fields of tall grass, with trees behind her. Winter in this area, perhaps, but it was green just a season ago.

How long had the crashed Viper been on Earth? I couldn't work it out. If it's been there for a long time then why isn't it covered in built-up layers of dust, blown around by a nuclear breeze? Why aren't the ruins of the Temple of Aurora covered in dust? Is there no breeze and no dust?

If the trees and the grass are dead (and Roslin picking out that one little plant contrasts with the deadness all around them) then how have they survived in that state for 2,000 years?

If the vegetation was alive and green six months ago, even two months ago, why hasn't it grown all over the Viper?

None of what we saw on Earth was scientifically accurate. Everything was dead and had been for 2,000 years.

[ThPrime]

How long had the crashed Viper been on Earth?
"The signal's pretty weak. The emergency locator battery must be running low on juice.

It was probably on for a long time.

It's Colonial. Standard on all aircraft, part of our inertial nav system."

Temporarily making a few assumptions:

Kara and Leoben found the real ?757NC wreckage of a normal Mark II Viper.
Only the pristine Viper's DLF can detect the ?757NC's ELB, otherwise ?757NC is a stock Viper unmodified by Ellen, god or any beings of light.

For comparison I googled specs for real personal and craft emergency location beacons. These fall into EPIRB, ELT, radio and GPS categories old and new. I looked at a range of the most expensive including many approved for military use. The task was to find the longest lasting model.

All use custom permanent lithium batteries, different than rechargeable lithium ion batteries. These are designed for an extended 11 year shelf life and 5 year service life. When a beacon is activated it operates continuously for 48 hours on average for commercial ELT to a maximum of 168 hours for much weaker personal consumer EPIRB.

I don't see why super skiffy Colonial military batteries couldn't function "over two months." They can travel faster than light, why can't they have better batteries too.

Since "battery" was used in dialog, the 8757NC's ELB likely activated normally when the Viper exploded in the maelstrom. However it made its way intact to the surface of Earth is another issue. I assume that is the intent of Kara's "battery juice" scene, to indicate her crushed and burnt Viper wreckage didn't travel back in time.

[Antarctic Fox]

... or time passed much more slowly for (Kara)...

:idea:
Time dilation caused by travelling at high subluminal velocity near c for a period of time? Plausible, though I would say that's something where they'd have to insert a Star Trek technobabble moment into the show for the average viewer who'd be "WTF?" when getting into the nuts and bolts of physics.

[genji2000]

Not if they just say an aberration of the space-time continuum. Most of the audience will have switched off by the time they've finished the sentence.

[The Dirt]

Here's a weird one: they first picked up the signal from the DeadKara viper in Revelations several light years away. Seeing as this signal would travel at the speed of light, the dead Kara and Viper must have been there for quite some time.

Does anyone remember if there was mention of how far away Earth was from the fleet when the signal was first detected?

[mermoid]

The thing is, it was also a magic signal that only the magic viper could pick up. I'm not sure how strongly the laws of physics actually apply to the signal.

[ThPrime]

"It'll probably take some revising as we go, but this is our destination right here. Earth." Lee points to a dot on a crowded large scale star map. Only one jump is shown, maybe the last jump of several. They jump directly to Earth orbit from the close vicinity of a yellow sun. The standoff with D'Anna happened in deep space before the Viper changed. So yes, there is every indication the fleet was not anywhere close to Earth when the signal started up.

The Revelations podcast mentions the tuneless syncopation of the ELB signal was supposed to match the Watchtower signal. Good to know because I can't hear it and never would have noticed myself. The Cylon four first heard the Watchtower signal about twelve jumps (Gaeta's estimate) and two days (of Baltar's trial) distant from the Ionian nebula.

I'm not sure the limitations of c are at work here. It would employ the same gimmick behind Cylon downloading, whatever that is. Events in episodes dictate downloading must take place at speeds greater than light. To me, the boosted supernatural magical mystery reception is the puzzler, less so the transmission itself. What's in a fundamentally different Cylon's head? What's in that pristine Viper? Is some stealth pirate radio ship tailing the fleet? Is this all coming out of a supernatural ether? I don't envy the writers jumping out of this painted corner.

On the other hand, you could discount superluminal transmission speeds. That none of the signals work like Cylon downloading. Multiply [12 jumps] times [5 to 30 light years per jump] to count how many light years ago the Watchtower signal first started. Kara's six hours of subjective time might be related to this.

[thevarrior]

"It'll probably take some revising as we go, but this is our destination right here. Earth." Lee points to a dot on a crowded large scale star map. Only one jump is shown, maybe the last jump of several. They jump directly to Earth orbit from the close vicinity of a yellow sun. The standoff with D'Anna happened in deep space before the Viper changed. So yes, there is every indication the fleet was not anywhere close to Earth when the signal started up.

I'm pretty sure it's well established that they are capable of superluminal transmission. I thought it was something more akin to the Ansible from the Ender series.

[bradtem]

The colonials don't have FTL radio. Sometimes it seems the Cylons do and sometimes they don't. The first episode "33" had a plot that required that the Cylons have either a way to send an FTL signal, or trace the fleet through a jump. However, I have later thought that the Cylon FTL signal could be accomplished if they have a small probe which can do a jump from inside a ship, and not be detected.

To wit: Olympic Carrier arrives, scans new location. Enters location into jump probe which jumps from ship back to Cylon fleet, tells them where to jump next. They would run out of probes eventually unless they had a way to get them back, some way to jump _into_ a ship. Not out of the question, I suppose.

Another Cylon FTL example is in Torn. They seem to have communications with other ships. Could be done with little probes though, we never see a dialog.

The Cylon download seems to be FTL though. They put Leoben out an airlock -- how does he download if not by FTL? The only other way would be if the Cylons always know where the fleet is, always have a ship just out of range for that purpose. Other things suggest that too -- we may see that in "the Plan"

[stavrosg]

To wit: Olympic Carrier arrives, scans new location. Enters location into jump probe which jumps from ship back to Cylon fleet, tells them where to jump next. They would run out of probes eventually unless they had a way to get them back, some way to jump _into_ a ship. Not out of the question, I suppose.
If the Olympic Carrier was indeed compromised, then it would transmit the jump coordinates before jumping, while the basestar is in range. No need for anything technobabblish to accomplish this.

[bradtem]

If the Olympic Carrier was indeed compromised, then it would transmit the jump coordinates before jumping, while the basestar is in range. No need for anything technobabblish to accomplish this.

Yeah, everybody brings this up, so I should have pre-added the answer to it. They detected the OC as the problem when it didn't make a jump. Later, it showed up, and 33 minutes after that the Cylons attacked. If the OC was transmitting the destination before the jump, the Cylons would have shown up 33 minutes after the jump, no matter where the OC went. In addition, either way they need a means to transmit to the Cylons that the fleet won't detect. And why the 33 minutes? If they get a radio transmission just before fleet jump, they could jump a few minutes later, if not a few seconds. Their jump tech is superior. To explain that, you have to assume the 33 minute delay was a conspiracy, and the Cylons had no desire to wipe out the fleet.

Now, this isn't the only FTL thing the Cylons do. Their downloading has to be FTL (or be explained by a much bigger secret) and their communications in Torn strongly suggest FTL radio.

Without FTL radio, you can't communicate at all with a ship unless you know where it is, as you must be able to jump there. So no ship that goes exploring can be reached -- it has to reach you. A ship that is out exploring in unknown space and finds a probe with a virus, how can you communicate with it? If it sends a probe to you, you're infected.

But there are many other FTL suggestions. How does Bulldog find the fleet? How do ships know to come collect D'Anna's documentary? How does the Cylon god communicate with the hybrids, first hybrid, head six and others. How does the magic viper read a colonial beacon from a planet light years away?

It is also quite possible that the writers do not intend for anybody to have FTL radio, but they forget themselves sometimes.

[Vesihiisi]

I think the writers have a tendency to simply forget every now and then how hugely immense space really is, and what all the implications of FTL travel over those distances are. I felt that way especially when watching Webisode 10 as the rescuers found Gaeta. Another ludicrous moment was when both the cylons and colonials just happened to end up at the very same spot when looking for the Lionhead nebula. But then, I guess the scale of distances in space is something that genuinely is very difficult to grasp.

[bradtem]

It is. Though finding Gaeta (otherwise impossible) could be done by guessing what types of errors they might have had in their jump processing. They said it was a single bit error. If that's true, there would only be so many possible single bit errors possible in jump coordinates. If the total coordinates are 128 bits, you would just have to search 128 locations, probably fewer than that.

As for 33, could well have been writer error. We will never find out, I am sure, why it took 33 minutes to find them, but that is not explained by the OC transmitting the coordinates as soon as it gets them from the fleet, as the CYlons could then jump with the fleet just fine.

[Kissingher]

I said "no" on this poll - but only in so far as I do not believe that the planet the Viper lead them to, and where the 13th Colony once lived, and to which is referred in the Book of Pythia, is the planet I'm currently sitting on, or that we glimpsed in Crossroads II.

Because, honestly, show me the Continents. They showed them in Crossroads II, so we know there is a planet out there somewhere with the North American continent upon it. Not showing us recognizable continents was a glaring absence. So they can tell us the Rev Planet is our Earth all they want... But they didn't show us.

In addition, we've been getting tantalizing glimpses of recognizable constellations, especially Orion in other locations... Notably the location of the Cylon battle from TTB.

That being said, I do believe that the Rev planet is in fact exactly where all the clues have been leading them. Saul, Sam, Galen, Tory and Ellen really did live there 2000 years ago. In that sense, it was "Earth".

So, eventually, the rag tag fleet, probably on it's last puff of Tylium, and Cavil on their tail, is going to find the Crossroads II planet/this planet/our Earth.

The open question, then is - when are they finding it? The ancient past - thus making them our ancestors, or, the far future making them our descendants. Are we the beginning of "All of this has happened before" or the end of it? (Or the reboot of it?)

Of course, if they are our ancestors, we'll have to ignore the biological clues that tell us quite clearly, right in our DNA that we are a species that has evolved here for millions of years. ;) And that would mean that Bob Dylan totally cribbed from Sam Anders. On the other hand, the survivor/settlers could be the mythological basis for Atlantis and other old stories about ancient civilizations, and of course, the founders of Greek culture. Maybe they even found 12 star patterns and named them after familiar old constellations. And it would also mean that we're all Cylons. And that would be cool.

If they are in our distant future, there are all kinds of implications of that too. Maybe in the BSG universe, it is we who began the Cycle. We are, even now in the formative stages of research into the creation of artificial life. Perhaps that could have lead to the creation of a race of Cylons, and maybe even some who wound up styling themselves after Greek Gods...) Perhaps that lead to a holocaust, and those Cylons and some humans escaped that destruction and went to Kobol, where the Cylons were worshipped as Gods and they lived in peace with humans for a time, until the humans of Kobol created artificial life again, and it began all over again. This would explain why the Colonials have all these references to Greek myths and the Zodiac.

I kind of like this solution too, and I can see it appealing to an agnostic such as RDM - because in this scenario, God didn't make man, man literally made the gods.

Of course, in this scenario, Sam Anders totally cribbed from Bob Dylan.

[Pnutmaster]

Well said, Kiss. I hope to hear more from you as the series concludes. We should have lots of fun discussing the mythology and history of BSG, no matter how convoluted or unbelievable RDM makes it out to be (Starbuck 2.0--Angels of Lights?).

It is, one, very possible that the Thirteenth Tribe could not find our Earth and settled with the Revelations planet, naming it "Earth" in honor of the "promised land" of legends.

Two, in the Sometimes a Great Notion podcast, RDM spoke briefly about Kobol the "paradise" and how man "stole fire from the Gods". Rather than say, "yes, its the Greek myth about Promethesus", Moore adds that the tale itself is the archetypical creation myth. Such a comment leads me to believe that "paradise" is a significant clue and there is, perhaps, a hint to be found in the story of Adam and Eve. Essentially, God banished Adam and Eve from Eden because they were one fruit (Tree of Immortality) away from becoming a God like him. We know (as you seem to know) from Aaron Douglas that Cylons were first created on Kobol. The knowledge to create the Cylons could have been the fire/fruit of Good and Evil taken from the Gods, and the ability to resurrect (become immortal) what the Gods withheld from man by banishing him from Kobol.
Ergo, the Final Five could be, as is widely speculated, Lords of Kobol (though the fact that the Five Priests worshiped a single God suggests, to me, that the people of Kobol, including the Lords of Kobol, were originally monotheists).

[Vesihiisi]

Ergo, the Final Five could be, as is widely speculated, Lords of Kobol.I for one am tending to think so, at least tentatively.

Concerning our inability to see any clear identifying features on Revelations Earth: I think it may just be a case of the producers still wanting to keep all options open at the end of season 3, just in case they would want to change or refine the backstory right at the end. That is what they have been doing all along: presenting things in a way that could have as many interpretations as possible so that they can play the game of (re)inventing the story on the fly. They just did not dare to commit either way.

[Pnutmaster]

I think it may just be a case of the producers still wanting to keep all options open at the end of season 3, just in case they would want to change or refine the backstory right at the end...They just did not dare to commit either way.

Excellent point, Ves. That would fit the theme we see in all of RDM's podcasts and interviews. Don't commit, but give us room to neatly retcon if we so wish. Funny how it demolishes the oft-spammed, "U CANT SEE THE USA" retort.

[Kissingher]

Well said, Kiss. I hope to hear more from you as the series concludes. We should have lots of fun discussing the mythology and history of BSG, no matter how convoluted or unbelievable RDM makes it out to be (Starbuck 2.0--Angels of Lights?).

SNIP

Two, in the Sometimes a Great Notion podcast, RDM spoke briefly about Kobol the "paradise" and how man "stole fire from the Gods". Rather than say, "yes, its the Greek myth about Promethesus", Moore adds that the tale itself is the archetypical creation myth. Such a comment leads me to believe that "paradise" is a significant clue and there is, perhaps, a hint to be found in the story of Adam and Eve. Essentially, God banished Adam and Eve from Eden because they were one fruit (Tree of Immortality) away from becoming a God like him. We know (as you seem to know) from Aaron Douglas that Cylons were first created on Kobol. The knowledge to create the Cylons could have been the fire/fruit of Good and Evil taken from the Gods, and the ability to resurrect (become immortal) what the Gods withheld from man by banishing him from Kobol.
Ergo, the Final Five could be, as is widely speculated, Lords of Kobol (though the fact that the Five Priests worshiped a single God suggests, to me, that the people of Kobol, including the Lords of Kobol, were originally monotheists).

Thank you. And yes, BSG wankery is one of my hobbies. ;)

I don't think the FF are LOK because of RDM's story that you quote above. The people of Kobol opened Pandora's box and created life - apparently the FF. So if the people of Kobol created the FF, they couldn't have been LOK.

But I do think that the LOK were probably Cylons (Generation 1). Cylons certainly have a lot of characteristics similar to gods, in particular, being immortal. These Gen 1 Cylons were worshipped on Kobol, and the creation of the FF (Generation 2 Cylons) disrupted the peace and harmony of Kobol.

If Starbuck is the LOK Aurora - (And they've hit us over the head a couple times now with Aurora/Kara comparisons) that would make her an even more ancient Cylon then the FF and it would explain her apparent ability to resurrect.

The FF were apparently monotheists because they knew that the LOK weren't actually gods at all. So they developed their own religion.

Of course where Baltar and the head people fit in, I have no idea. :lol:

So LOK = First Gen Cylons (created by humans before Kobol?)
Final Five and the 13th Tribe = Second Gen Cylons (created by people on Kobol)
Sig Seven = Third Gen Cylons (created by the FF?)

[Batman316]

Sig Seven = Third Gen Cylons (created by the FF?)

Would that not make them more advanced than the FF?

[Pnutmaster]

Who's saying the FF were created by the Kobolians? All we know for certain is that they "come from the home of the Thirteenth" and they possessed resurrection whereas the other Cylons of that world did not. If you like, you can call the Final Five the Five Priests and have a laugh picturing Tory, Anders, Tigh, Tyrol, and...Ellen in robes, standing around a pedestal.

[Hofner1962]

If Starbuck is the LOK Aurora - (And they've hit us over the head a couple times now with Aurora/Kara comparisons) that would make her an even more ancient Cylon then the FF and it would explain her apparent ability to resurrect.

I still don't buy Starbuck as cylon just because she is back. I attribute it to some other phenomenon. Why? Because not only did she resurrect, but her viper, clothes and accessories. Plus she got the luxury add ons of pictures of an Earth like planet.

As for the 5 being priests. Add the chief running around the temple naked memory (which may be false) and you get a pretty interesting ceremony - no?

[genji2000]

though the fact that the Five Priests worshiped a single God suggests, to me, that the people of Kobol, including the Lords of Kobol, were originally monotheists

I'm not sure "the one whose name cannot be spoken" is the same thing as the Cylons' "one true god". The former could be the jealous god.

[Pnutmaster]

I'm not sure "the one whose name cannot be spoken" is the same thing as the Cylons' "one true god". The former could be the jealous god.

Eh? We'll see. I felt most of Season 3 (oracle receiving a message from the Cylon God, Temple of the Five) was meant to establish that idea. Well, at least the idea that the Cylon God had a place in the pantheon of Kobol. Not sure if that "jealous God" business was ever deemed canon, though I sure hope it was :p

[genji2000]

Yeah, well. I'm only not sure. Just something that occurred to me. The Cylons got their monotheism from Zoe, who got it from Clarice. We don't know yet how ancient it is. We do know (given that we also know that the scriptures can be misinterpreted) that the Thirteenth Tribe lived on Kobol alongside the gods. We don't know whether the Final Five are part of the Thirteenth Tribe or an evolution of the Thirteenth Tribe's home-made mechanoids. I'm pretty sure the Final Five are the five priests though, if only because of their robes being listed in the Propworx catalogue under their names.

[Vesihiisi]

The people of Kobol opened Pandora's box and created life - apparently the FF. So if the people of Kobol created the FF, they couldn't have been LOK.

But I do think that the LOK were probably Cylons (Generation 1). Cylons certainly have a lot of characteristics similar to gods, in particular, being immortal. These Gen 1 Cylons were worshipped on Kobol, and the creation of the FF (Generation 2 Cylons) disrupted the peace and harmony of Kobol.

So LOK = First Gen Cylons (created by humans before Kobol?)
Final Five and the 13th Tribe = Second Gen Cylons (created by people on Kobol)
Sig Seven = Third Gen Cylons (created by the FF?)

I am inclined to interpret RDM's Pandora's box reference so, that cylons were developed on Kobol but evolved beyond expectations and managed to establish a position as gods in the Kobolian society.

One possibility is that the cylons could have become the Lords of Kobol when they were able to transcend their original artificial bodies and establish the opera house as a repository for their artificial intelligence, which may or may not be also linked to establishing resurrection. It is difficult to see how much of it all might have been included in the initial experiment, and how much the first cylons added to it themselves.

It may not work out, but at one point I wondered if one of the driving factors of the whole show might be the desire of artificial intelligence to find a place for itself in the living world and to see itself as having a soul. Perhaps the cylons have traditionally been worried that the alternative to resurrection is complete oblivion, and perhaps Head Six's statement to Baltar on Kobol, about anybody dying there being doomed to oblivion after the gods had forsaken the place, refers to members of the 13th tribe in particular.

The original conflict between man and machine may have been about the legality or acceptability of interbreeding.

[Kissingher]

Who's saying the FF were created by the Kobolians? All we know for certain is that they "come from the home of the Thirteenth" and they possessed resurrection whereas the other Cylons of that world did not. If you like, you can call the Final Five the Five Priests and have a laugh picturing Tory, Anders, Tigh, Tyrol, and...Ellen in robes, standing around a pedestal.

I'm assuming that the Five priests associated with the Temple of Five are the Final Five. (And yes, I do laugh at the idea of Tory, Anders Tigh, Tyrol & Ellen standing around in white robes.) That pushes their timeline back to the exodus of the 13th Tribe from Kobol. Although, you never know. It is possible that the original 4000 year old Priests of the Temple were different, and that TATTE originated independently on Earth at a later date, and hijacked the Temple of Five.

[Batman316]

I'm assuming that the Five priests associated with the Temple of Five are the Final Five.

Be careful making assumptions. While I can't see the FF being the actual 'Priest' I can see them being 'made in the image of the Five Priest of the Jealous God.


TATTE = ??

[Kissingher]

I think there are too many ties between the FF and the Temple for it not to have been the FF in the Temple. Especially, given that Tyrol found the place, and D'Anna saw them in her vision.

I think that the Algae planet was the 13th Tribes version of New Caprica. It's where they took a short break during their journey.

TATTE = Tigh Anders Tyrol Tory Ellen. Sorry about the confusion.

[bradtem]

I used to think that the F5 might have been among the lords of Kobol. But now we see they were living ordinary lives on the 13th colony 2,000 years ago, around the time of the exodus from Kobol. And that they were caught unawares by a giant attack.

This makes it less likely they were Lords of Kobol, because we are told that we will learn why both these events are dated 2,000 years ago. Yes, it is possible that they could differ by a few decades and thus the F5 could have gone to Kobol after death on Earth to participate in the battle of the exodus there.

However, it is possible the F5 created the Lords of Kobol. Remember the F5 go back not 2,000 years but at least 4,000 years, to the Temple of Five.

[Englander]

Interesting stuff, but back on topic for my 2 cent, I presume it's Earth, but the more I hear people mentioning the lack of continents and the moon, the more I think "just a minute, if you are going to show this planet that everyone watching always wanted the RTF to find, then you'd show it in all it's glory to the Earth we know today, nuked or not.

It just seems that RDM kept hiding it under the clouds and never showed the moon either, almost like we ain't allowed to see what's underneath.

Also the Earth at the end of Season 3 was geographically our Earth, if RDM wasn't shy to show the Moon and North America there, why not here?

I've also heard about comments about it being a terraformed Venus or Mars, lol, whilst not an impossibility, wouldn't make sense because seeing how close Earth is to Mars and Venus in relation on how far the RTF can jump and plot star systems, it's kinda out of the question.

[bradtem]

The Earth shown in Crossroads is probably a sloppy graphics dept. It is present-day Earth. It is not an Earth from prior to the 19th century, nor is it a post 21st century Earth. It is certainly not a vacant and abandoned Earth. While you may not realize it, the Mississippi Delta, in its current form as seen in the photo, is a human artifact of sorts, it looked different in the past, and will not be maintained in its current form nor would it maintain it if the planet were empty.

Since this show is not set in the present day, this is presumably a sloppy graphics dept. As such you can't draw a lot from that picture.