The Hub - 06/06/08

[Shane]

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/c/c3/411_pilot_meeting.jpg


10 minute preview on SciFi.com
Airs officially at 10pm EDT/9pm CST on the SciFi Channel
Live IRC Battlestar Forum Chat!


To those who read this, this is a spoiler zone. Do not read this thread if you wish to be spoiled. With that in mind use the spoiler tag if these things apply:


Future events that happen because of "The Hub" (Promo's and Previews)
Future episode related plots that are known to tie in with this episode or might happen from this episode.

Further more, as in the posted announcement regarding the preview from "SQN", if the "final cylon" is to be reveled this episode, please keep that information in spoiler tags no matter what. No exceptions.

Please send Joe or I a message (Via PM), if you have a problem with a post that might contain information that is not in spoiler tags.

[redwards95]

I'm really looking forward to this episode. I hope my expectations haven't been raised too high. It's kind of ridiculous how long they've waited to show us what Cavil and Boomer have been up to.

[Neakal]

Same here. For some reason ever since the episode names were released, sometime before Season 4 began, the title of this episode drew my attention. Not only because I could not (at the time) fathom a hub of WHAT it was but also because it felt like a very important episode. I hope I am not proven wrong :)

[Xenon242]

I'm with you both, I'm hoping we can finally get a little further in this that we have been going so far. Now isn't really the time to open up new questions with the show, they need to be answered.

[mariarilke]

Answers! Oh god yes please! yes yes yes oh god yes!

[Washi]

so how long till the preview streams?

[Osprey]

not to be a complete pedantic ass, but, regardless of continent, isn't the air date -- 6/6/08?

/runs like heck

[Osprey]

1st preview, iirc, hits the "airwaves" at 0900 edt ...

/and folks, i KNOW how excited we are about this, but keep in mind this is to be the "compliment" episode to sqn, so it may have some of its own little bobs and weaves to it ...

[ColonialMarine]

not to be a complete pedantic ass, but, regardless of continent, isn't the air date -- 6/6/08?

/runs like heck

LOL...I noticed that too. :lol:

[Washi]

>>not to be a complete pedantic ass, but, regardless of continent, isn't the air date -- 6/6/08?

How's that? :S

[Osprey]

the thread title currently shows -- "06/03/08"

now, since we have many european readers, to them that's the 6th of march. to u.s. readers, it's this past tuesday! it's incorrect either way, so as i was gigging shane on it for no good reasdon, i happened to notice it's one of only 12 dates all year [1/1, 2/2, etc. etc.] where it's "impossible" to transpose them so i thought i'd throw that in ...

/just my warped sense of humor i suppose ...

[Shane]

the thread title currently shows -- "06/03/08"

now, since we have many european readers, to them that's the 6th of march. to u.s. readers, it's this past tuesday! it's incorrect either way, so as i was gigging shane on it for no good reasdon, i happened to notice it's one of only 12 dates all year [1/1, 2/2, etc. etc.] where it's "impossible" to transpose them so i thought i'd throw that in ...

/just my warped sense of humor i suppose ...

>>not to be a complete pedantic ass, but, regardless of continent, isn't the air date -- 6/6/08?

How's that? :S

LOL...I noticed that too. :lol:

not to be a complete pedantic ass, but, regardless of continent, isn't the air date -- 6/6/08?

/runs like heck

6/6/08 - Now fixed. :D

Answers! Oh god yes please! yes yes yes oh god yes!

Listen.. I don't know anything about this episode. :p

[Osprey]

ok, now that it's corrected, if you wanna kill my gratuitously snarky posts, i'm totally cool with that ...

/don't ever piss off: dude who cuts your hair
dude who prepares your food
dude who moderates your message boards!
:-)

[Xenon242]

Well, folks Friday is finally upon us. Here's hoping tonight's ep will start putting some of the issues and questions to bed !

[redwards95]

The preview was a sham.

Intel ad. Previously on BSG with scenes of D'anna being boxed and the hybrid saying, "Jump!" "2 days ago" then the same scenes that were on the web exclusive followed immediately by the opening credits and another Intel ad and that was it. It lasted about 5 minutes including the ads and opening music instead of the promised 10.

[ThPrime]

Spotted in the after credits teaser. Warning: This is not in the Hulu clip.

Baltar is mortally wounded. Roslin peels his blood soaked shirt away revealing a nasty gaping slash in his torso. A dying leader will know the truth of the opera house?

[Osprey]

of, so in skiffi land 10 minutes is actually ~6, including ads ...

/hey suits, why not try some real live honesty and simply say it's a "teaser preview" -- stop treating us progressively worse during the course of the season, 'k?!
//morons

re: thprime's spoiler item, i think yer extrapolating a bit from what we actually see to what you "want" to have happen -- tho it's an intriguing premise to be sure ...

[ThPrime]

Extrapolating? I compared pajamas from last episode. :) We'll see soon enough!

[stavrosg]

It airs in the UK today? what time?

[Shane]

I hope you all join us in IRC this time around during episode airing. Make sure you got your laptop near your TV or desktop... Last time it was just Joe, Steel, Jon, and Me. :D

[timbo]

WOW!!! It was amazing. They messed up the time differences here in Spain, and showed it a day early. It´s unbelievable. There was a massive battle with loads of explosions and stuff, and some cylons got really confused and didn´t know what to do, and Tigh is not a cylon, and at the end, this thing called a "hub" blew up. I am out of breath.

[Brian A. Reed]

Spoiler tags are our friends, Timbo. :)

But I get the feeling you're just being a wiseass, in which case, I applaud you. :)

[Shane]

WOW!!! It was amazing. They messed up the time differences here in Spain, and showed it a day early. It´s unbelievable. There was a massive battle with loads of explosions and stuff, and some cylons got really confused and didn´t know what to do, and Tigh is not a cylon, and at the end, this thing called a "hub" blew up. I am out of breath.
They showed it a whole week early in Spain? :confused:

[genji2000]

They showed it a whole week early in Spain? :confused:

I doubt it. Timbo likes to play sometimes.

What time UK is the IRC on?

[Shane]

9pm EDT + 5 hours... 3/4am ish? ?

[stavrosg]

That's more like 01:00
It will be 03:00 in Greece though, and I'll be most likely sleeping :(

[genji2000]

9pm EDT + 5 hours... 3/4am ish? ?

Gods.

How long does it last?

Also, it's your show so I'm not requesting that you pander to UK forum contributors, but we only get to watch the show at about 6:00am here. That's no use to you in the US, but it might be nice to do one, maybe after Revelations, or the following week, at midday US, around tea-time in the UK, early evening in most of Europe.

[Georgiotje]

At what time in Europe does in air in the UK?

[Shane]

Usually I am in there all the time. I just idle by. We started last time at 8pm. Joe got on at 9pm and watch Dr. Who before becoming active in a channel where everyone had already seen the episode from other sources... but this time around everyone will be seeing it for the first time, so it's an hour show and we stick around for about 30 mintues after it airs.

[genji2000]

That's more like 01:00
It will be 03:00 in Greece though, and I'll be most likely sleeping :(

"Most likely"? You old rogue.

[genji2000]

At what time in Europe does in air in the UK?

It's on next Tuesday at 9pm UK time.

[genji2000]

Spotted in the after credits teaser. Warning: This is not in the Hulu clip.

Baltar is mortally wounded. Roslin peels his blood soaked shirt away revealing a nasty gaping slash in his torso. A dying leader will know the truth of the opera house?

Are these things made available for non-U.S. residents? There's a really crappy one on Youtube.

[timbo]

Spoiler tags are our friends, Timbo. :)

But I get the feeling you're just being a wiseass, in which case, I applaud you. :)

Applaud away Brian, you got me pegged. My name is Timbo and I am a wiseass.

[Xenon242]

Spotted in the after credits teaser. Warning: This is not in the Hulu clip.

Baltar is mortally wounded. Roslin peels his blood soaked shirt away revealing a nasty gaping slash in his torso. A dying leader will know the truth of the opera house?

In the very, very strictest sense of the prophecy, it's entrely possible ...

... after all, our boy Gaius was VP, president and leads a group of ... well, we'll call them fans. In any case, he's been and is in leadership roles, so if the writers have decided to throw us for a major loop, I think it's bound to have interesting ramifications for the rest of the series.

I just saw a crappy version of the preview on YouTube, and quite right, it looks to me like Baltar really got himself in a nasty way. It's not wishful thinking on my part, but the way characters have been knocked off with reckless abandon, it wouldn't at all surprise me if he ends up snuffing it, too, as a result. The only problem with this is his elevation to sainthood or worse by potentially perceived martyrdom in the eyes of his groupies. Sigh.

[RobotWolf]

In the "sneak-peak", at the end of the intro (where they show half-second clips of the upcoming episode) I saw someone and a centurion at the forefront of a massive explosion.

Spoiler is regarding the "sneak-peak." Did anyone catch who that "someone" was?

[genji2000]

In the "sneak-peak", at the end of the intro (where they show half-second clips of the upcoming episode) I saw someone and a centurion at the forefront of a massive explosion.

Spoiler is regarding the "sneak-peak." Did anyone catch who that "someone" was?

That would have been Baltar wouldn't it - from the Canadian promo?

[Xenon242]

I would say so.

[Adobe]

...and Tigh is not a cylon

WHAT

[genji2000]

WHAT

Just leave it. It's not worth the aggravation.

[Adobe]

Just leave it. It's not worth the aggravation.

whew.

[timbo]

whew.

Adobe -- Genji knows I was just playing around with that "hub" stuff, and I think he was hoping to save you from further pain and confusion when he said to just leave it. He is a gentleman.

[Adobe]

Adobe -- Genji knows I was just playing around with that "hub" stuff, and I think he was hoping to save you from further pain and confusion when he said to just leave it. He is a gentleman.

But... but... but I believe everything I hear on the internets! It must be true!

[EverlastingGaze]

Great episode, better than last weeks.

If the ending didn't make you cry you have no heart....

[Spencerian]

Shippers are happy today!!!

And about frakkin' time!!!!!

This was one of the finest episodes made. And I love the brief spiritual return of a favorite character. Roslin finally shed her angry side...and embraced her loving side.

And I loved the red herring (complete with music!) between Three and Roslin.

A 6 out of 5 stars.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Definitely a 6 out of 5. And the next episode will be great too!

[Starstruck]

Mmm, yes! We're back on track. So I wonder if all those people who changed their minds to Roslin as the final cylon because of last week's preview will change again now? Hehe.

[Shane]

I told you. No way was that going to happen! :D Good episode and good turnout ont he IRC channel.

[Hermes]

That was a good ep. It makes you wonder what they're going to do now with Baltar after his confession. Two other iterms that will probably have effects in future eps. The centurian's lecture by Baltar about God and slavery along with the Cylons being mortal now. I think both will effect how the decisions they make with the Colonials.

[afleaah]

WOOOOO HHOOOOOO
now THAT humans and cylons
was the best FRACKING eps for the season...
now thats the bsg that i no and love...

2 of my favorite parts...

-u no about the final 5 but u dont know that ur one of them...
*laura stares shocked at d'anna -then PSYCH
u should see the look on ur face....
i was on the floor laughing for that actually i thought it was so funny

-end...with laura and bill
i wanted her to just walk up to her and kiss her...
the same way lee does wen starbuck is gone too long...
like son like father...
but it was touchin nonetheless...

LOVED EVERY FRACKIN MINUTE!!!!!!!!!!

have no clue as to whats gonn happen next week...

[swissdictator]

Very good episode! Cudos to Olmos for his performance in the one... hallucination/dream sequence.

I also really liked the music from this episode, especially when they're arriving on the base ship before it jumps for the first time.

Though I have to say, I enjoy the Baltar character the most... just like I enjoyed Londo Mollari the most in B5. They seemed the most... believable.

[Osprey]

d'anna's mindfrak with laura [and every single one of US!] -- best. headfake. EVAH!

/patting self on back -- i did [mostly] call that it wasn't gonna be that bad with baltar -- but i surely didn't realize how integral it would be with laura's story!

//annnnnnnd, it looks like next week could be even BETTER!

[Shane]

You should have seen us in IRC when that happened. I was getting ready to lock the wiki.. and then... it turned into a slam fest on the servers.

[genji2000]

I felt it still suffered from editing issues, much much less than Sine Qua Non, but still the pacing wasn't quite right. Was very disappointed in Roslin's orders yet again. It's Grace Park's fault - she can display sadness, betrayal, joy like no one else. Tricia Helfer outdoes her on hot 'n' horny (rampant on Baltar in the Miniseries compared to Athena trying to get Helo's trousers off when she gets the all-clear on the virus) but Park has such an emotive face.

Three's joke on Roslin and us was amazing. Baltar's interactions with the Hybrid and the Centurion likewise. There was a lot of humour in that episode.

Also sad to see the end of Boomer though... or did we?

The interactions between human and Cylon were great, such as Roslin asking if the Eight gets information from that liquid.

Can't wait for the HD version (I got a pretty crappily compressed version).

I hope we get an extended version on the DVD.

[Washi]

I felt that the episode was a huge disappointment, probably one of the most disappointing episodes of the season after the awful The Ties that Bind. I am truly baffled now as to how the fandom can claim that Sine Qua Non was poorly edited yet go nuts over this episode, which was edited far more choppily. The attack on the Hub was made completely boring by cutting it down into a handful of short scenes. There was no sense of threat danger or daring about the action sequence, but was more like the kind of scenes you get in most moronic sci-fi (a dry, tepid pretty battle scene purely for the sake of some pretty SFX and trying to maintain a quota of action). Suspension of disbelief came tumbling down as they conquered the cylon's most prized base with inexplicable ease, and the dialogue between the humans and the Cylons was so simplistic and outright silly that I could barely stomach it. It felt like some "let's get along" episode of a children's television programme. Sure, the episode was fast-paced and had some important plot movement, but, stylistically it seemed lazily produced and poorly edited. The writing was well below the old standard of BSG, and even further below that of the last episode. This is one of the only times that I can say that an episode of battlestar galactica was actually stupid; it felt like one of the cheesier episodes of stargate, or even at the level of the brainless new Doctor Who.

Comparing this to older episodes, or the miniseries and it just comes off as a sloppy mess. The characters were behaving unrealistically for the most part, seemingly oblivious to their situation, and there was no sense of tension prevalent throughout the episode. I was actually really surprised at how bad just about every aspect of the episode was actually. The music was fantastic, as usual, and the battle scene did LOOK good, but the content itself had no strengths, certainly no intensity. There was one exception - one scene I liked; the scene between Roslyn and Baltar when Baltar confesses his misdeeds. It almost felt out of place given how spot-on that scene was in terms of character continuity and acting.

[genji2000]

...the dialogue between the humans and the Cylons was so simplistic and outright silly that I could barely stomach it. It felt like some "let's get along" episode of a children's television programme. Sure, the episode was fast-paced and had some important plot movement, but, stylistically it seemed lazily produced and poorly edited. The writing was well below the old standard of BSG, and even further below that of the last episode. This is one of the only times that I can say that an episode of battlestar galactica was actually stupid; it felt like one of the cheesier episodes of stargate, or even at the level of the brainless new Doctor Who.

As with Sine Qua Non, it fell down during editing, not writing. If these two episodes had been edited together as originally intended then they would have played much better: the pacing would have been smoother and the danger would have been apparent by its invisibility - instead of 'Helo and Eight land on the Hub' + 'Helo and Eight find Three' + 'Helo, Eight and Three leave the Hub' you'd have had (e.g.) Lee and Romo figuring out who's going to be president, Romo having Lee at gunpoint (the tension of which would have carried back into the Helo/Eight/Three situation) and Lee being made president, all intercut leaving you wondering what was happening back at the Hub. I know how you feel about the action sequences but I think they were originally intended just to show action, which by implication, and intercut with plot development, would have ramped up the tension, rather than having planes flying at each other, random bullets and explosions, and no evidence of the execution of a plan beyond dead Vipers being towed by Heavy Raiders. All IMHO of course.

And personally I really liked the interplay between humans and Cylons. It was a little cheesy, almost Star Warsy, but I think BSG has paid its dues and can get away with a bit of rabble-rousing cheese in its final season.

Comparing this to older episodes, or the miniseries and it just comes off as a sloppy mess. The characters were behaving unrealistically for the most part, seemingly oblivious to their situation, and there was no sense of tension prevalent throughout the episode. I was actually really surprised at how bad just about every aspect of the episode was actually. The music was fantastic, as usual, and the battle scene did LOOK good, but the content itself had no strengths, certainly no intensity. There was one exception - one scene I liked; the scene between Roslyn and Baltar when Baltar confesses his misdeeds. It almost felt out of place given how spot-on that scene was in terms of character continuity and acting.

Unrealistic characterisation (this occurred to me in Baltar's lines - what happened to the serene priest of the altar of Baltar?) is, again I think, down to the re-editing decision.

As for the scene you liked (which I liked too), I felt that all of a sudden Baltar stopped being high and spoke relatively normally during his confession.

[Washi]

Well yeah, I agree that the editing was part of the problem and it probably would have been better cut into the previous episode in theory. However, having seen this I'm glad they left Sine Qua Non alone and restricted the silliness to this episode. I don't agree that it was all down to editing though. A lot of the dialogue itself was just very poor and immature. The episode was devoid of both wit and grit, so to speak. The attempts at humour were quite puerile, and the dialogue lacked real human believability - which I believe it BSG's strength. BSG is one of the only television series that had characters who felt like real people in a sci-fi settings, with intricacies, fears and sincerity. This episode lacked that except for a few key scenes. Imagine if you'd tuned into the series for the first time for this episode (or at least this would be true for me); you'd think it was run-of-the-mill sci-fi with flippant space battles and unbelievable characters. What did the episode lack? It lacked the edge that, as far as I'm concerned, makes BSG the show that it is (or has been), the edge of grittiness, realism, and emotion.

The problem with the action sequence was that it didn't feel plausible, and I honestly didn't really care about the outcome. An action sequence is only good when you have tension. Say the Hand of God - that was edge-of-your-seat viewing because there was an all-or-nothing urgency about retrieving the fuel, a sense of wanting Lee to overcome his lack of faith in himself and succeed, the added tension of Baltar having guessed about the location of the target. THAT is good writing. THAT's exciting. And the other great battle scenes in the show have some similar underlying dramatics.


This episode instead takes the format:

A few lazy lines about the plan
Cut to shot of the battle
They are successful (somehow)

which is the kind of thing I can expect from the typical uncompelling episode of Stargate Atlantis (although even that has been known to be a cut above this). Is everyone else just riding on a wave of relief that something actually happened this episode to see its flaws? Perhaps in time people will start feeling less impressed by it.

[redwards95]

I too was disappointed by this episode on first watching. Perhaps that's simply because I'd seen so many spoilers about it and so most of what happened I already knew about. I won't vote until I've watched it a few more times.

A lot of this episode simply didn't make sense:

- why was Cavil resurrecting D'anna now to reconcile the models? He's the one that blew up Natalie's fleet to prevent that from happening in the first place. His sudden change of heart was unexplained and what have he and Boomer been doing all these weeks anyway?
- why did the hybrid react to being activated and finding her basestar overrun with humans by taking the humans to the most important cylon military installion? does the hybrid want the final five revealed?
- why don't the cylons have a better form of radar that would have allowed them to see the vipers attached to the raiders?
- why couldn't the hub identify Natalie's basestar and jump away to safety? wouldn't basestars have some kind of unique identifier?
- why does D'anna kill Cavil and go along with Helo and the 8? I suppose she is angry about her boxing but it's a leap to go from that to instantly siding with the colonials. (Or does she know Helo is the final cylon?)
- why was Roslin having visions of Elosha? Was that supposed to be real in some Head 6 sense or was it just her imagination?
- how were Helo and the 8 able to waltz through the Hub apparently by themselves? are there no centurions guarding it?
- how did they find D'anna?
- why are 6s and 8s such great pilots? aren't raiders usually flown by those animals?
- was Baltar preaching to the centurion just comic relief and will be dropped as fast as Natalie giving the centurions free will?
- why does Roslin change her mind and decide to save Baltar? is she going to become part of his harem now?
- why didn't Baltar die from the huge hole in him? They got carried away with the blood and gore there. It didn't seem credible to me that Roslin was able to change her mind and save him or even save him in the first place.
- why would D'anna ever reveal the final five to anybody? The moment she does, she becomes expendable. What possible assurance could anybody give her?
- what about discovering the meaning of the opera house? that seems to have been forgotten by the end of the episode

The whole rescue of D'anna just was too quick and too easy. Unless we later find out that the cylons wanted the colonials to rescue her as part of some ulterior plan, it felt false. Also having her immediately laugh after revealing Roslin is a cylon was disappointing to me. Even if Roslin isn't a cylon, it would have made more sense to me for her to try to trick Roslin into believing she is a cylon so that Roslin would become an ally and protect D'anna. At the very least (and I can't believe I'm saying this given how annoying I'm finding how long they are extending the mystery of the final five) D'anna should have led her on for a while or perhaps given her one true name as a measure of good faith.

I did tear up at the final scene with Roslin and Adama. I'm glad these 2 finally have figured out the obvious: that they love each other.

The preview for next week seems to indicate the fantastic four are outed and that the fleet reaches Earth. Hopefully that episode won't be as much of a letdown as this one.

And what happened to Boomer after she ran away from D'anna? Did she get blown up with the Hub? If so, that's an incredibly lame death.

[genji2000]

Is everyone else just riding on a wave of relief that something actually happened this episode to see its flaws? Perhaps in time people will start feeling less impressed by it.

Well, I'm an unashamed fanboy, so in a way it's even less than seeing that "something actually happened" - it's just great to see a new episode, which supports your argument rather than countermands it. There was gravitas in this episode (such as the Eight's utter disappointment at Roslin/Helo's betrayal...
...and that seems to be a factor in Revelations if you watch the promo...
...the moment when Helo registers the resurrection pools and he and we register the full extent of the murder they're about to commit including of Sharons, and Roslin's astonishing acceptance of Baltar's faults - I was quite pleased to hear him talk about the flood because I've used that analogy for the attack on the twelve colonies myself), as there were momentous events (Lee as president, Adama relinquishing command) in Sine Qua Non, which I ascribe to an editing decision. After this episode, I'm less inclined to call it a bad editing decision - perhaps, as you say, the writing was below par and they decided to go boldly with the twin episodes where they hadn't gone before in an effort to rescue it. I'd really like to know if the separation of the episodes was a post-production decision, and if so I'd love to see them edited as originally intended.

I'll watch it again in HD later today and maybe I'll have a firmer opinion of it then.

[genji2000]

Too many questions, but here's my take on a couple of them...

- why don't the cylons have a better form of radar that would have allowed them to see the vipers attached to the raiders?
That was explained by the electronic signature, or lack of.

- why are 6s and 8s such great pilots? aren't raiders usually flown by those animals?
Raiders don't have pilots - they're organic beings with mechanical shells. In this episode the humanoid Cylons were flying Heavy Raiders, which are just ships (I think). Cylon flight training is as good as human flight training, according to the Six in the flight briefing.

- was Baltar preaching to the centurion just comic relief and will be dropped as fast as Natalie giving the centurions free will?
Sadly, it would appear so because the Centurion got blown to buggery, hence taking the 'conversation', and any spiritual awakening he/she may have had as a result, with him (or her).

- why does Roslin change her mind and decide to save Baltar? is she going to become part of his harem now?
Because (at long last) Roslin has woken up to the fact that she is 'but a man' (or woman) - she's human and so is Baltar.

- why would D'anna ever reveal the final five to anybody? The moment she does, she becomes expendable. What possible assurance could anybody give her?
That they won't expend her?

The whole rescue of D'anna just was too quick and too easy.
Put that down to the editing decisions.

Unless we later find out that the cylons wanted the colonials to rescue her as part of some ulterior plan, it felt false. Also having her immediately laugh after revealing Roslin is a cylon was disappointing to me.
I loved that bit.

I did tear up at the final scene with Roslin and Adama. I'm glad these 2 finally have figured out the obvious: that they love each other.
It's what the show's all about.

And what happened to Boomer after she ran away from D'anna? Did she get blown up with the Hub? If so, that's an incredibly lame death.

I with you 100% on that one. I was devastated. Bad writing, bad editing, bad idea (if any thought went into it) - a waste of an amazingly valuable character, not to mention another Eight, which are becoming a bit thin on the ground. There's not enough Sharon in the show as it is.

[stavrosg]

I expected the 8 to fight a bit more against Roslyn's orders, but meh.
As for the hub itself, it was not expected to be boarded by enemies, so the extra infastructure it needed would be unnecessary weight. Plus, it seemed that all of it happened too fast for the ones to realize what happened and jump away, or put more defenses on the hub.
And when Helo and Eight boarded., they were busy fighting the rebel basestar anyway.

D'Anna didn't have much choice; If she didn't go with the rebels, she would be dead anyway, so why not?

A really good episode story-wise, but it too felt a bit forced. Maybe an extended edition would pace better?

[genji2000]

Nice Sixes.

Does anyone else feel that it's getting really top-heavy with the "previously on Battlestar Galactica" section?

I liked Baltar's Neil impression when he was trying to get the Hybrid to stop jumping the ship.

No Anders, incidentally.

[genji2000]

I'll watch it again in HD later today and maybe I'll have a firmer opinion of it then.

I loved it. It's a phenomenal episode. I think I like Sine Qua Non better too now. On second viewing, knowing what was coming, the pacing wasn't nearly as jarring as the first time round. I still wanted more human-Cylon interaction, but I accepted that these two episodes are what makes the human race worth saving. It's about love. The action sequences were only there because they had to be to get D'Anna off the Hub. They might as well have happened off-screen. I think it was well-written and I'm less sure that there was any post-production editing decision. Maybe the two episodes weren't as slickly executed as they could have been but there are so many stories interweaving all the time that I think the problem is the 45-minute limit. If they had made two 90-minute episodes I think we'd all be hailing them as triumphant.

[pagad]

I thought it was a bit underwhelming, if I'm honest. It had been building up in my mind ever since Sine Qua Non finished and just fell flat.

Not that it was a bad episode, by any means. But it felt rushed - if it had been a 90-minuter the pacing could have been much better.

The Roslin parts were the best bit, though. They were excellent and Mary McDonell deserves a pat on the back. And Lucy Lawless was great - her performance was really strong.

Personally I thought Sine Qua Non was much better.

[Asiriya]

Now that. That was a good episode of BSG. Really, very good episode, best of the season so far, and nearly makes up for the, IMO, blandness of the rest of the season so far. Top notch :)
After reading through other's points, I do agree that some things felt silly, the fact that the most important thing in the universe for the Cylons was destroyed so easily for one. I'm slightly sad that the Hub fight was not made more of, but considering everything else going on I didn't miss it, for once. It seems some people love the rest of the season but hate this (and last) episode. Oh well, it's good to be different.
Highlights: Baltar and the Hybrid, Baltar and the other cylons he interacted with, the 3 and Roslin scene. Some great acting by Olmos as well, love that guy.

[Emperor Fabulous]

I cannot let a bit of rushed editing ruin what was a brilliant episode. I was choked when Roslin 'died', blown away by McDonnell's performance with Baltar bleeding to death, and happy/choked once again with the ending. I think Deanna is going to be a very interesting character now indeed, especially with her bargain with Roslin to have security in return for the names of the five.

It's a sad week next week, our last episode for a long time. :(

[Briggart]

There's something I did not understand about the whole Hub storyline.
Why can't the cylon just build another Hub and start resurrecting again?
I don't remember this was explained in the show, but I am not a native English speaker so maybe I missed some of the dialogs.

[Starstruck]

I too was disappointed by this episode on first watching. Perhaps that's simply because I'd seen so many spoilers about it and so most of what happened I already knew about. I won't vote until I've watched it a few more times.

A lot of this episode simply didn't make sense:

- why was Cavil resurrecting D'anna now to reconcile the models? He's the one that blew up Natalie's fleet to prevent that from happening in the first place. His sudden change of heart was unexplained and what have he and Boomer been doing all these weeks anyway?
- why did the hybrid react to being activated and finding her basestar overrun with humans by taking the humans to the most important cylon military installion? does the hybrid want the final five revealed?
- why don't the cylons have a better form of radar that would have allowed them to see the vipers attached to the raiders?
- why couldn't the hub identify Natalie's basestar and jump away to safety? wouldn't basestars have some kind of unique identifier?
- why does D'anna kill Cavil and go along with Helo and the 8? I suppose she is angry about her boxing but it's a leap to go from that to instantly siding with the colonials. (Or does she know Helo is the final cylon?)
- why was Roslin having visions of Elosha? Was that supposed to be real in some Head 6 sense or was it just her imagination?
- how were Helo and the 8 able to waltz through the Hub apparently by themselves? are there no centurions guarding it?
- how did they find D'anna?
- why are 6s and 8s such great pilots? aren't raiders usually flown by those animals?
- was Baltar preaching to the centurion just comic relief and will be dropped as fast as Natalie giving the centurions free will?
- why does Roslin change her mind and decide to save Baltar? is she going to become part of his harem now?
- why didn't Baltar die from the huge hole in him? They got carried away with the blood and gore there. It didn't seem credible to me that Roslin was able to change her mind and save him or even save him in the first place.
- why would D'anna ever reveal the final five to anybody? The moment she does, she becomes expendable. What possible assurance could anybody give her?
- what about discovering the meaning of the opera house? that seems to have been forgotten by the end of the episode

The whole rescue of D'anna just was too quick and too easy. Unless we later find out that the cylons wanted the colonials to rescue her as part of some ulterior plan, it felt false. Also having her immediately laugh after revealing Roslin is a cylon was disappointing to me. Even if Roslin isn't a cylon, it would have made more sense to me for her to try to trick Roslin into believing she is a cylon so that Roslin would become an ally and protect D'anna. At the very least (and I can't believe I'm saying this given how annoying I'm finding how long they are extending the mystery of the final five) D'anna should have led her on for a while or perhaps given her one true name as a measure of good faith.

I did tear up at the final scene with Roslin and Adama. I'm glad these 2 finally have figured out the obvious: that they love each other.

The preview for next week seems to indicate the fantastic four are outed and that the fleet reaches Earth. Hopefully that episode won't be as much of a letdown as this one.

And what happened to Boomer after she ran away from D'anna? Did she get blown up with the Hub? If so, that's an incredibly lame death.

Well, you make some good points, but I still thought the episode was quite good. In all honesty I should have voted bad on Sine Non Qua, instead of indifferent and good on this one instead of very good, but I didn't.

I didn't see Cavil resurrecting D'anna as a departure from character. He has made it clear for a while that he considers the unity of the seven important, doesn't want to know about the five, and distrusts the humans unconditionally. I'm sure from his point of view he didn't start the civil war, he just escalated it, and when bombing the rebels into submission didn't work and they actually went over to the humans, he decided another desperate option was appropriate - resurrecting D'anna. Of course, he bet on her forgiving him for boxing her, and he bet wrong.

I did think the battle was rushed and confusing, and I do think that was do to too much editing. I bought that the human/cylon alliance could fairly easily overtake the one basestar and the hub. The hub, it seems, was protected mostly by its jump capabilities, not by military force, likely because the cylons never expected a civil war, and the humans could have never found it without the hybrid and cylons helping. The basestar itself had already seen battles, was therefore weakened, and its leaders were on the hub, and the main one was killed. We didn't see what was going on aboard the basestar, but I imagine all hell was breaking loose.

Why did the hybrid jump to the resurrection ship? I don't know. This could be a weakness in the plot, but it could mean a lot of things. We really don't know if the hybrid has a plan and consciously works toward that, or if it's just a computer that is also somehow hooked into a collective consciousness, and it spews things from this knowledge. It could have deliberately taken the rebels to destroy the hub or it might have chased after the hub in some desperate attempt to make something else happen or out of total confusion with no plan. It _was_ injured.

It also didn't bother me that D'anna willingly went with Helo and the Eight. What choice did she have? At any rate, I think she had made up her mind which side she was on when she killed Cavil. She wanted to see the five, and he didn't, and now she wants to divulge them. She will as soon as she feels she's not in iniment danger.

I thought the scene with Baltar and Roslin was the stand-out scene of the episode as most others did. I also thought Lucy Lawless gave an excellent performance.

I hope Boomer isn't dead. I agree that if she is that was an unclimactic way to deal with that once very important character. Something tells me she survived.

[genji2000]

There's something I did not understand about the whole Hub storyline.
Why can't the cylon just build another Hub and start resurrecting again?
I don't remember this was explained in the show, but I am not a native English speaker so maybe I missed some of the dialogs.

Surprising that they didn't have a DR Hub.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

In all honesty, I found this episode to be the best of the season. Nothing really felt rushed to me in this episode; I think people only feel that way because they wanted to see some massive space battle for the Hub.

It was well done, and the best episode that Jane Espenson wrote for the series.r

Baltar brought some much needed levity to the whole situation, particularly in his attempts to connect with the hybrid and the Centurion. That was pure gold.

I wish Baltar had bought it on the basestar. I was rooting for him to die, but... not yet... since he has to go back to his groupies for some much needed healing.

I suspect he'll be dead by the end of the season.

Anyway, I found nothing here that wasn't unbelievable. All of the character moments were good, particularly between Baltar and Roslin, and the brief scenes between D'Anna and Roslin.

[spark-lee]

Every episode is a gift. No gripes from me.

[genji2000]

Every episode is a gift. No gripes from me.

Same here. Fanboy bliss. I think the majority of contributors approved.

[james968]

I was disappointed by the episode. (The big question answered this episode....Laura and Bill get together. whoooppie!!!)

I thought the final destruction of the basestar guarding the hub was a little strange. Gallactica can take a Nuke and survive, but hit an entirely different ship and a basestar can't survive the blast. Why haven't they been using their nukes all along then?

Anyone see any Leoben's this episode?

The scene's of Baltar and Roselyn trying to get the hybrid to talk were amusing. (Not quite funny, but......).

I think seeing more Human/Cylon and Helo/-any-Eight interaction. Especially if he starts walking into a room and a bunch of eights start giggling and squealing like teenagers, and watching Helo's reaction. Would have improved the episode immensely. (Or at least laugh at).

The Elosha thing.......uuuhhh. (So did she get wings in the end?) Maybe more effective to have Laura talking to another Laura (though I understand that sort of shot is a major headache)).

What was Christopher Pike doing flying a Raptor when everyone else was flying a viper, asides from wearing a Red Shirt?

Baltar was way out of character also, in this episode. Is this what happens to him when his Harem isn't around?

It just didn't seem have the believability of other episodes. (I think Sin quo na, was very good and 'overall' believable).

[redwards95]

So I watched it again. I don't know why I bother watching it on Friday nights. It's just so much better when watched when I'm not struggling to stay awake. I loved it the second time around. It still has a lot of gaping plot holes, but overall it works. It'll be even better when watched on DVD without the week delay between the previous episode and the one that follows.

I think the appearance of Elosha may be a tipoff to us about what the head characters are. All the head characters except one have taken the form of people (and cats?) who have died. Only head Gaius has taken the form of a living person. So now I'm wondering did Gaius really survive the nuclear explosion on Caprica thanks to Caprica-6 shielding him? And if he didn't, is he a cylon who was resurrected or is he like Starbuck?

[james968]

Also what the Hell was the point of Baltar doing a "Dr Smith" scene with the Cylon?

[genji2000]

The Elosha thing.......uuuhhh. (So did she get wings in the end?) Maybe more effective to have Laura talking to another Laura (though I understand that sort of shot is a major headache)).

Baltar was way out of character also, in this episode. Is this what happens to him when his Harem isn't around?

I don't agree with most of your points, but I think it's a matter of personal opinion, both for this and for the previous episode. I really liked it, after initial reservations.

These two points I would back up though - Roslin was clearly upset about Elosha's death in Season Two, but she hasn't thought about her since then, by which I mean, if Elosha was going to be the face of Roslin's subconscious then the Writers should have maintained a degree of connection between the two throughout the last two seasons. I may be wrong but I can't recall a single scene in which Roslin has thought about or mentioned Elosha.

Baltar - yes - a completely different character in this episode compared to the rest of Season Four.

[genji2000]

So now I'm wondering did Gaius really survive the nuclear explosion on Caprica thanks to Caprica-6 shielding him? And if he didn't, is he a cylon who was resurrected or is he like Starbuck?

If he didn't, at what point did the 'resurrected' or Starbucked Gaius return to the land of the living?

[Brian A. Reed]

I was disappointed by the episode. (The big question answered this episode....Laura and Bill get together. whoooppie!!!)

I thought it was the best part of the show. The emotion in both actors' eyes (once again!) was as good as I've ever seen. The "get together" could have been done in any number of ways, but they did it right for the characters involved. Perfect.

I thought the final destruction of the basestar guarding the hub was a little strange. Gallactica can take a Nuke and survive, but hit an entirely different ship and a basestar can't survive the blast. Why haven't they been using their nukes all along then?

The Galactica only has a handful of nukes. The nukes the Vipers were using were no doubt borrowed from the Cylons. The Hub was obviously a very frail design (the Cylons never expected it to be in the line of fire) and it's very possible that the basestar adjacent to it was already damaged from the battle (or in the initial battle with the rebel basestar).

Baltar - yes - a completely different character in this episode compared to the rest of Season Four.

I don't think anyone has seen much more than a glimpse of the "real" Baltar. I think he's been acting his whole life. I don't even know if he knows who he is. I think James Callis does an exquisite job of showing the myriad facets of a very flawed man's personality. It's possible that the only time Baltar was truly honest was when he was begging Roslin not to let him die.

[timbo]

I liked Baltar's Neil impression when he was trying to get the Hybrid to stop jumping the ship.





I´m with you dude. "Don´t jump alright, guys, cos that would be, like reeeaally heeaavvyy man."

I enjoyed it. I like to tell myself that I am here for the spiritual stuff, but I do like a battle now and then, and I suppose my only dissappointment was, that after seeing the scene last week of the battle´s aftermath, I wanted to see the courage and sacrifice that went with it. Someone else, Joe I think, said the same, but I suppose the time was needed to tell the story.

I liked the "forgiveness" message in Baltar´s dope induced confession. I did this terrible thing, but this is the way God made me. I used to think some of my stuff was beyond forgiveness - it makes me laugh now to think this. It was like the message was - if you are wondering just how far this forgiveness stretches, then now you know it includes near genocide.

I agree as well that the show is about love. Our ability to love is the thing that makes us worth saving - the big question at the show´s beginning. Elosha made Roslyn open her heart a little by showing her the possibility of Adama´s love, and once the door was open she found a little love for Baltar as well. I thought those scenes were great. Baltar saying "dont do this" did not carry much selfishness for me. I think he was saying dont do this to yourself. And Roslyn´s little whimpers as she realised what she had done, and began saying "dont die" made me tear up.

For me, the time for picking holes in the plot "why was it all so easy, etc" has passed. The themes of the show are what is important, and while maybe it wasn´t the best piece of technically polished TV, the aims are so noble, that it doesn´t matter. The show has so much emotional capital in the bank with me, that I will disregard just about any apparent plot flaws or continuity problems.

The only problem now is after next week, what do I do. There is the forum, I know, Which will help, but if the FF are not revealed, I am just gonna spend six months driving you mad with the Tigh stuff. I have bought a big carton, one of those that fridges are delivered in, and twenty gallons of hair-gel. I think I am gonna box myself.

[genji2000]

For me, the time for picking holes in the plot "why was it all so easy, etc" has passed. The themes of the show are what is important, and while maybe it wasn´t the best piece of technically polished TV, the aims are so noble, that it doesn´t matter. The show has so much emotional capital in the bank with me, that I will disregard just about any apparent plot flaws or continuity problems.

Hear, hear.

The only problem now is after next week, what do I do. There is the forum, I know, Which will help, but if the FF are not revealed, I am just gonna spend six months driving you mad with the Tigh stuff. I have bought a big carton, one of those that fridges are delivered in, and twenty gallons of hair-gel. I think I am gonna box myself.

If only that would work.

lol - reading that, it sounds like "if only you would", but I meant "if only we could".

[genji2000]

This is off topic for The Hub but I can't see another thread more appropriate and it doesn't deserve a new thread...

It's interesting that the record for the most users online on the forum was set on May 29th, during the week that the UK got Sine Qua Non three days before the US and a day before the US broadcast. Does that reflect the number of Americans eager for spoilers, or the number of Brits eager to spoil, or just coincidence?

[timbo]

I posted mine before I read Brian´s post and I think he said what I wanted to say, but better. Roslyn and Adama are entering the final stretch in their lives, and their love is probably a second or third time round for each of them. The way the get-together was done carried the weight and depth of everything that led to it. Brilliant.

Genji - That was funny. Well done. .....yeah, stupid timbo and his stupid ideas, .....I wish he would box himself.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

The only problem now is after next week, what do I do. There is the forum, I know, Which will help, but if the FF are not revealed, I am just gonna spend six months driving you mad with the Tigh stuff. I have bought a big carton, one of those that fridges are delivered in, and twenty gallons of hair-gel. I think I am gonna box myself.

Oh, and make sure you get yourself some dark silver-gray spraypaint and paint a block (similar to this (http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/0/0d/Box.jpg)) where your consciousness can be "boxed into". :lol:

Anyway, in case no one noticed, the baseship was taken out in the massive-frakking-explosion that was the hub. (The hub's power core clearly went to critical mass and took out the accompanying baseship.)

As for the hub, one can easily surmise that it was not built to defend itself. Further, all the Cylons probalby know their way around the ship.

As for the Sixes and Eights being able to fly the raiders... well, why the hell wouldn't they be? Yeah, they all have different personalities, but they're machines... of course they would be programmed with intimate knowledge of every facet of their society.

[Shane]

This is off topic for The Hub but I can't see another thread more appropriate and it doesn't deserve a new thread...

It's interesting that the record for the most users online on the forum was set on May 29th, during the week that the UK got Sine Qua Non three days before the US and a day before the US broadcast. Does that reflect the number of Americans eager for spoilers, or the number of Brits eager to spoil, or just coincidence?
We would have surpassed that if MySQL did not crash. :)

[genji2000]

We would have surpassed that if MySQL did not crash. :)

What can I say? You use Windows (or other MS products), you get horse manure.

[timbo]

Oh, and make sure you get yourself some dark silver-gray spraypaint and paint a block (similar to this (http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/0/0d/Box.jpg)) where your consciousness can be "boxed into". :lol:.

Looks a bit big. I think I might only need a matchbox size one for my consciousness.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

What can I say? You use Windows (or other MS products), you get horse manure.

The servers are Red Hat Linux. :P

Yes, Linux can frak the pooch too...

[genji2000]

The servers are Red Hat Linux. :P

Yes, Linux can frak the pooch too...

I stand corrected. Shane mentioned elsewhere that the site was 'powered' (lol) by Vista. I didn't think to think that Vista's not a server OS.

Anyway, this is not the place for an OS discussion.

Why didn't the Cylons have a DR Hub in case Windows crashed the main Hub?

[Shane]

I am power by Vista, which make sure this site says online. :D

[pagad]

I did think Elosha was a nice touch, considering she died early in S2, which was yonks ago.

Nice bit of continuity there.

[Wouter]

A lot of this episode simply didn't make sense:

- why was Cavil resurrecting D'anna now to reconcile the models? He's the one that blew up Natalie's fleet to prevent that from happening in the first place. His sudden change of heart was unexplained and what have he and Boomer been doing all these weeks anyway?
- why couldn't the hub identify Natalie's basestar and jump away to safety? wouldn't basestars have some kind of unique identifier?
- why are 6s and 8s such great pilots? aren't raiders usually flown by those animals?

And what happened to Boomer after she ran away from D'anna? Did she get blown up with the Hub? If so, that's an incredibly lame death.
I'm 90% sure Boomer escaped the hub in time. When she was running away, this was probably either in an attempt to move Cavil forward in the downloading queue (possibly on the hub itself, or else she jumped to a resurrection ship nearby) or to get the hell out of the hub because she expected it to be nuked at any moment

As for your points:
-The first one: one possibility is that Boomer could have convinced Cavil to attempt to end the war (she wasn't thrilled that her sisters were being killed), and either she proposed unboxing D'Anna or Cavil did it of his own accord because he hoped given the rebels some of what they wanted would be able to create peace again
-The second one: I agree, this is a serious problem. Besides the unique ID they no doubt have, the baseship was also visibly and seriously damaged and it appeared unannounced.
-the third one: the heavy raiders do have an animal part like the normal raiders, and can probably fly themselves (I expect this is the usual way of running things; thisw as probably the case when a heavy raider smashed into Galactica with a boarding party of Centurions in early S2). However, I suppose it's not unreasonable a Cylon pilot could override the control of the animal; human pilots are generally more effective than raiders in combat, so humanoid Cylons are probably equally more effective than the animal part normally controlling the heavy raider.

All in all, I agree it went to easy, allthough I liked the episode as a whole well enough.

I hope Boomer will be back in the second half of the season (don't expect her in "Revelations"), and in a more satisfying way.

[Washi]

So the excuses people have come up with in defense of the effortless destruction of the hub:

it was a frail design; it was not designed to defend against being boarded

Will that's just a resounding tribute to the stupidity of the Cylons, and seemingly completely out of character for their usual military efficiency. What a load of rubbish. And as for the vipers not being picked up on their sensors - that's also a huge stretch because they had to use the stealth ship to get close to the resurrection ship in season 2.

And I should point out that bad editing is by no means any excuse for a choppy episode, even if it was the main problem (which I don't agree with at all). They have 40 odd minutes to work with and they should write television that fits the time, and that's all there is to it. I think Jane Espenson wrote a far better episode in Escape Velocity, and even the Passage was less haphazard than this (although I've never liked her since what she did to Buffy season 6). If it wasn't for that one scene with Baltar and Roslyn, and her subsequent quagmire over killing him, it would definately be the worst episode of the season.

I'm truly baffled as to how so many people thought it was good. For the record, I thought Sine Qua Non was a good episode. Certainly the dialogue and characterisation was miles above this one. I guess I've swimming upstream against the flow if praise for the episode, so I'll let people continue throwing around the delusional, healing word editing.

[timbo]

So the excuses people have come up with in defense of the effortless destruction of the hub:

it was a frail design; it was not designed to defend against being boarded

Will that's just a resounding tribute to the stupidity of the Cylons, and seemingly completely out of character for their usual military efficiency. What a load of rubbish. And as for the vipers not being picked up on their sensors - that's also a huge stretch because they had to use the stealth ship to get close to the resurrection ship in season 2.

And I should point out that bad editing is by no means any excuse for a choppy episode, even if it was the main problem (which I don't agree with at all). They have 40 odd minutes to work with and they should write television that fits the time, and that's all there is to it. I think Jane Espenson wrote a far better episode in Escape Velocity, and even the Passage was less haphazard than this (although I've never liked her since what she did to Buffy season 6). If it wasn't for that one scene with Baltar and Roslyn, and her subsequent quagmire over killing him, it would definately be the worst episode of the season.

I'm truly baffled as to how so many people thought it was good. For the record, I thought Sine Qua Non was a good episode. Certainly the dialogue and characterisation was miles above this one. I guess I've swimming upstream against the flow if praise for the episode, so I'll let people continue throwing around the delusional, healing word editing.


You´re just grumpy because someone stole the second half of your name.

[OldManRivers]

Good episode. I have nothing bad to say about it.

Best part though:

When D'ana said what she said to you know how about being a Cylon. I freaking laughed so hard when that happened. I reaaaaallly want the podcasts so I can hear RDM talk about that. It was just, priceless. After it happened, I had a feeling it would piss a lot of people off, but I think it was just hilarious. A nice slap to the fans.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

So the excuses people have come up with in defense of the effortless destruction of the hub:

it was a frail design; it was not designed to defend against being boarded

Will that's just a resounding tribute to the stupidity of the Cylons, and seemingly completely out of character for their usual military efficiency. What a load of rubbish. And as for the vipers not being picked up on their sensors - that's also a huge stretch because they had to use the stealth ship to get close to the resurrection ship in season 2.

First, the idea of any Cylon wanting to effectively terminate their immortality is something so shocking that the Cylons never considered it. Cavil said this very bluntly.

Secondly, from a military standpoint, the less you attract attention to an extremely important object, the better.

The Cylons tend to think like thieves in this regard... More often, the most important valuables are not located in a safe, but a hollowed book next to one. (Although the really seasoned, smart thieves know this trick.)

Also, the Hub jumps around at random intervals, and requires that you have a Hybrid to even locate the thing. So why would you waste resources in protecting something that should be virtually invisible to everyone else?

You wouldn't.

Third, as for the reason why the Cylons can't build one... Their resources are limited by what they have available. Just the drydock for such a thing would be a massive undertaking.

There's also the question of the creators the humanoid Cylons... we know the creators must be Cylon themselves, but yet they've seen fit to program in various safeguards into the humanoid Cylons. (Such as the fact that they can't think or discuss the Final Five.)

Maybe, just maybe, they also lost the knowledge to build a resurrection hub. Or it is restricted to them in much the same way they don't know anything about the Five.

And I should point out that bad editing is by no means any excuse for a choppy episode, even if it was the main problem (which I don't agree with at all). They have 40 odd minutes to work with and they should write television that fits the time, and that's all there is to it.

So, what you're saying is that you do a show "by the numbers"... Right?

Clearly, you haven't written anything before, much less for television, otherwise you would see the complete unrealistic stupidity of your statement. (By the way, don't take that personally... It's just that your opinion there comes off as completely uninformed and thus you are not worthy enough to have it. Or, as Harlan Ellison says, "You don't have the right to your own opinion. You have a right to your own informed opinion.")

Obviously, I don't expect every episode to hit a home run, and have been fairly critical of some of the show's episodes.

Also, BSG isn't written like an episodic series; the episodes that have come before it have pretty much laid the groundwork for what we've seen in this episode and the one before it.

I think Jane Espenson wrote a far better episode in Escape Velocity, and even the Passage was less haphazard than this (although I've never liked her since what she did to Buffy season 6). If it wasn't for that one scene with Baltar and Roslyn, and her subsequent quagmire over killing him, it would definately be the worst episode of the season.

"Escape Velocity" was a great episode, particularly Aaron Douglas's performance... I was particularly fond of his description of Cally to the Old Fart.

Also, what precisely did Espenson do in Buffy Season 6 to get you so riled up?

Further, have you considered that maybe your hatred of her colors your views of the episode?

I'm truly baffled as to how so many people thought it was good. For the record, I thought Sine Qua Non was a good episode. Certainly the dialogue and characterisation was miles above this one. I guess I've swimming upstream against the flow if praise for the episode, so I'll let people continue throwing around the delusional, healing word editing.

Please, hold the hyperbole and the self-aggrandizing moralizing... It's unbecoming. You really had a valid point up until the last sentence, then that killed any momentum you had before. :(

[TPL2008]

Anyone see any Leoben's this episode?


No, but Rennie was credited in at the start so i wonder if some scenes where filmed but cut for timing.

I hope this episode is restored to a decent length on the DVD's.

[Shane]

I just hope for an extended version of BSG on DVD just like what they did for Lord of the Rings.

[Gort]

No, but Rennie was credited in at the start so i wonder if some scenes where filmed but cut for timing.

I hope this episode is restored to a decent length on the DVD's.

Not sure if this counts, but he was in one of the flash-backs of the previous episode (well, the one before the last one), in the scene when the hybrid is plugged in just before she does a jump. But, yeah, he's not in the episode proper.

[Dzonatas]

Finally watched the episode. One of the best battle scenes that I ever seen. Maybe some might not think so because of their short air time, but just the detail, the action, and how everything work together is awesome!

Dianna's acting was great! And the music background for what she said to everybody was intense! Mathed well.

There wasn't a flaw in character.

[alpha5099]

Oh man, this season just keeps getting better. I think this is three episodes in a row where I have been blown way, declaring it the best episode of the season, only for it to get topped next week.

Finally, Jane Espenson has settled in nicely at BSG. I was a huge fan of her work on Buffy, but when she showed up on Galactica, I was disappointed in what she put out. The Passage and Dirty Hands weren't bad really, they just weren't very good. And Espenson, who frequently wrote some of the silliest and funniest episodes of Buffy, seemed to struggle to get humor into her episodes. When she did, it seemed to fall flat on its face. Like the scene where Kara gives Kat the pills: I'm pretty sure Espenson was trying to make Kara use a little humor to defuse the tension of the situation, but Starbuck just came off as a bit of a bitch, honestly. BSG's always been a very dramatic show, and there've been few humorous interludes, so it was strange to see her trying to graft it on in her scripts.

But, oh man, she's finally found the proper balance. This episode obviously wasn't a comedy, but frak, there were some amazingly funny moments. The show would be great if just for the scene at the beginning where Baltar is talking out his ass about his special connection with the Hybrid, and no one is listening.

But then she creates possibly the greatest fake-out ever when D'Anna accuses Roslin of being the Final Cylon. They did it frakking perfectly. D'Anna's delivery of the line, the look on Roslin's face, and oh god, the music. Sweet Baltar, that sting was epic. I totally bought it. My mind was racing: "Oh man, they set up Kara just to make it Roslin. Amazing!" And then the music cuts out and D'Anna cracks up. Easily the funniest thing to ever happen in Galactica, and it was pitch perfect.

God, how much greater can this season get?! The next episode looks like the shit's hitting the fan, although I'm immediately incredulous of the scene with Tigh, Anders, and Tyrol in the tube. It screamed dream sequence. And fucking A, D'Anna and Roslin on a planet?! Are they actually getting to Earth next episode?! Wha?! My head may explode.

[Brian A. Reed]

Joe Beaudoin Jr. said:
Please, hold the hyperbole and the self-aggrandizing moralizing... It's unbecoming. You really had a valid point up until the last sentence, then that killed any momentum you had before. :(

Perfectly stated. No one likes an a**hole.

[afleaah]

The Roslin parts were the best bit, though. They were excellent and Mary McDonell deserves a pat on the back. And Lucy Lawless was great - her performance was really strong.


so say we all...

lucy's scenes when d'anna jus woke up
were mind blowing in my opinion

...when she turns to cavil and asks
"why dont u ever ask about the final five? you never ask about them.
...
well i will tell you. i will tell you - i'll start shouting out their names. why do you risk it?"
that was ill

and wen she tells roslin shes a cylon...
oh my god- i couldnt stop laughing

and honestly...i think lucy's facial expression sometimes speak louder than any dialogue. case in point after she kills cavil...
she raises her eyebrow and looks around...
it was like-
boy do i hate these people,
i cant believe we'er the same species.
good news is i wont ever have to see cavil's ugly face in awhile...
man time to get out of the tub of goo...

[Washi]

>>You wouldn't.

Well I feel that you would. Or at last I would. And I'd still have my immortality. Perhaps the human saying "better safe than sorry" hasn't rubbed off on the cylons yet. Or maybe they haven't developed common sense yet.

>>Clearly, you haven't written anything before, much less for television, otherwise you would see the complete unrealistic stupidity of your statement. (By the way, don't take that personally... It's just that your opinion there comes off as completely uninformed and thus you are not worthy enough to have it. Or, as Harlan Ellison says, "You don't have the right to your own opinion. You have a right to your own informed opinion.")

*ahem*. Well you are correct that I haven't written for television. That's spot on. However, I have written before. I've written quite a lot actually, in my studies and in a creative writing unit (in which I excelled); not that my having written before is at all relevant, beyond being a derisive comment. In return, let me make an assumption: you haven't written for television either. It's just a guess, but it's a pretty safe bet. And yet, somehow, my comments or opinions are uninformed, whereas yours are not. Well, all informedness aside, let me just explain the basic logic behind the assumption I made:

I assumed that, being a writer or producer for an episode of television, you would want to most effectively use the time available to tell as coherent and/or complete a story as possible. I assumed that working within a time-frame would influence those behind the episode to try and fit a story within that frame.

But it seems this was foolish of me. If you do in fact sit on a higher tier of knowledge than I, then please educate me, relieve me of my stupidity (and that's not a sarcastic request unless you were being hypocritical).

>>Further, have you considered that maybe your hatred of her colors your views of the episode?

Despite being uninformed, I do try to be objective. My criticisms for this episode did not in fact erupt from a loathing of its writer. I went into the episode expecting the usual standard of BSG, and as I said, I've enjoyed her work on the show in the past. I also realise that being the writer for an episode of BSG doesn't mean you're responsible for everything in it - each episode is broken by the writers together and revised by others (picked up from statements in interviews and RDM's podcast if you wanted a citation on that one).

>>Please, hold the hyperbole and the self-aggrandizing moralizing... It's unbecoming. You really had a valid point up until the last sentence, then that killed any momentum you had before.

Morality has nothing to with this. None of my comments expressed any sentiment of moral self-superiority. All I said was that people, for this episode and the last, seemed to have been using "editing" as if it explains or justified the bulk of the episodes' problems. Sorry if it came out the wrong way. But I never said that other people's comments were 'uninformed', or 'stupid'. That's what you did to my comments.

>>No one likes an a**hole.

Amen.

[james968]

It looks like Adama (Sr) doesn't take it well. First he seems to be in denial (Tigh having to reassure him, "I AM a Cylon"), then anger (Smashing mirror) .....

I'm not sure if that final shot off Adama (Sr) is related to Laura or Tigh.

[genji2000]

It looks like Adama (Sr) doesn't take it well. First he seems to be in denial (Tigh having to reassure him, "I AM a Cylon"), then anger (Smashing mirror) .....

I'm not sure if that final shot off Adama (Sr) is related to Laura or Tigh.

That needs tagging.

[ranvir]

This was an amazing episode... The scene with Adama and Roslin towards the end was so touching!

While I enjoyed Baltar's confession to Roslin, I have to say that it seemed out of character to me... I didn't realize Baltar felt that way.

This is the first time I can think of in which Helo does something against his moral compass. Before this episode he always has done what he thinks is right, even if it's an unpopular (and sometimes stupid) choice or against orders, but here he bent to Roslin's will. That was surprising.

[genji2000]

I never said that other people's comments were 'uninformed', or 'stupid'.

You were the first one to call the reasons for the Cylons not having an army stationed with the Hub for defence 'stupidity'. What I (as a fan of this episode) took exception to was:

I'll let people continue throwing around the delusional, healing word editing.

"Delusional" is tantamount to calling fans of the episode 'stupid' and 'uninformed', even if you didn't use those exact words. Like you get it and we don't, duh.

You're not the only person who disliked the episode and you're in the majority of those who thought it was flawed in various ways, but you're talking about a creative process and the time constraints of a TV show are a creativity-stifling hindrance, which is why cinema movies are not all 90-minutes long. Writers don't and can't write to 45-minute schedules (although they must be mindful of that). The fit-to-45-minutes is done in post-production, in the editing. The writer has to tell the story, the editor has to satisfy the demands of the network. Anyway, I'm in danger of becoming another armchair editor so I'll leave that argument to someone who does write professionally (although I did write plays that were staged in my younger days, and I did hack them to bits for the sake of pacing and being concise).

Not to be patronising, but have you given the episode a second viewing? I liked it a lot better second time around.

[genji2000]

This was an amazing episode... The scene with Adama and Roslin towards the end was so touching!

While I enjoyed Baltar's confession to Roslin, I have to say that it seemed out of character to me... I didn't realize Baltar felt that way.

Really? I've always seen guilt as a determining factor in Baltar's actions, balanced with his natural desire to stay alive. He was in tears when Caprica Six first revealed to him what part he'd played in the destruction of the human race and I've always felt that throughout the series he's (infrequently, maybe) tried to rationalise that (e.g. when he wanted to be a Cylon hero instead of a human traitor).

This is the first time I can think of in which Helo does something against his moral compass. Before this episode he always has done what he thinks is right, even if it's an unpopular (and sometimes stupid) choice or against orders, but here he bent to Roslin's will. That was surprising.

Yes - Helo has played the part of Roslin's conscience before. It could be that now Roslin has recognised and (we hope) surpassed her usual depravity (betrayal of the agreement with the Cylons over the D'Anna interview notwithstanding) during the Elosha sequences, Helo is not required to temper her more extreme instructions.

[1Nivek1]

First, the idea of any Cylon wanting to effectively terminate their immortality is something so shocking that the Cylons never considered it. Cavil said this very bluntly.

Secondly, from a military standpoint, the less you attract attention to an extremely important object, the better.

The Cylons tend to think like thieves in this regard... More often, the most important valuables are not located in a safe, but a hollowed book next to one. (Although the really seasoned, smart thieves know this trick.)

Also, the Hub jumps around at random intervals, and requires that you have a Hybrid to even locate the thing. So why would you waste resources in protecting something that should be virtually invisible to everyone else?

You wouldn't.


Well, that may be, and all works out so nice in that line of reasoning, BUT if something is so valuable, then one would protect it. That is, the idea of a hollowed out book next to a safe is nice for movies with Jennifer Lopez in them, but the Pentagon doesn't keep it's most important resources in a broom closet in the boiler room downstairs. It keeps them in the most secure room in the center.

This "suspension of belief", however has been in the series from the get-go, so I think this one particular case is not really worth getting dramatic over. The idea that a human can shoot down 20 computer-controlled fighters is retrarded, as well as every tactical decision the Cylons have ever made. But, it makes for fun TV and space battles :D.


Maybe, just maybe, they also lost the knowledge to build a resurrection hub. Or it is restricted to them in much the same way they don't know anything about the Five.
Well, anyone can play the "maybe" card. I mean maybe Kirk Cameron hid the blueprints for the ultimate weapon in his hollowed out cross next to his collection of porn, next to his collection of "where are they now" VHS tapes and the Cylons never thought to look there. But, I do think the whole process, story-wise, was a bit too easy. This was supposedly the Cylon's crown jewel, and it was destroyed by Helo while he flirted with his wife's evil twin. So I think Washi has a point (though you may not feel the same :))


Clearly, you haven't written anything before, much less for television, otherwise you would see the complete unrealistic stupidity of your statement. (By the way, don't take that personally... It's just that your opinion there comes off as completely uninformed and thus you are not worthy enough to have it.

Welp, not sure how one doesn't take that as personal. Who here has written TV epi's? And if I did write a few epi's for S4 of Full House, does that really help me out any?

Personally, I think the episode wasn't bad, but wasn't great. The Roslin bait was overwhelmingly lame. Overall, I think S4.0-4.5 has been a general fumble.


Or, as Harlan Ellison says, "You don't have the right to your own opinion. You have a right to your own informed opinion.")
Well that's clearly a play on the quote from Patrick Moynihan, and whomever uttered it was clearly a moron. Oh wait, he files lawsuits after lawsuits (even tried to sue a newsgroup), and then got into a fight with a guy, signed a "non-agression pact", and then bragged about it to his 12 year old buddies (his readers?)........Yep --> moron.

Seriously Joe, have you been drinking?

[genji2000]

Well, anyone can play the "maybe" card.

That is one of the points of this, or any, fan forum, ne. Just because it isn't shown on screen doesn't mean it didn't happen. A great many of the threads on this forum are about speculation - putting forward your own and enjoying other contributors'. Wouldn't be much of a discussion board if you were restricted to what the producers have time to show on-screen... and it is a discussion board, it is about discussion, about the points you want to get across and the words you use to express them. Washi did use inflammatory words like 'stupidity' and 'delusional' and he was pretty clear about his point, that those of us who really liked the episode were somehow missing the point. Or at least that's how I read his post.

[Osprey]

sheesh, everyone needs to take a step back here re: criticism of the episode. we're on the verge of another mini-flame war like the cally/tory dustup last month [!]

[Neakal]

As I mentioned before in this thread, I have been excited about this episode ever before Season 4 began so I may have inadvertantly hyped myself over it. I think I was either expecting a revelation of sorts or an interaction of D'anna and one of the Fantastic Four. We may still see those in the following episodes. Also, as I mentioned, I had been wondering what a "Hub" implied so I may have subconsciously expected something to do with Earth. But thats no fault of the episode.

I'm going to say it was a good episode and I enjoyed what was happening. Some of the events, like others said, felt rushed but I feel that was the only way to make it possible so that the timeline of Sine Qua Non and The Hub could meet. And I disagree what others said regarding a united storyline. I think it was better that both stories were contained. Better edited the full version might have been, it would have distracted us from the matters at hand.

Roslin and D'anna...Ever since I saw the preview I have been going like "they can't do that. Not so soon" about the Cylon revelation and hoping for creative editing. Being in that mood, I completely bought it when D'anna "revealed" Roslin's Cylonicity and fell for the joke.

Helo and Eights, I'm glad such an interaction has happened. A review for Sine Qua Non had joked that Helo would be like a celebrity among Eights and although it was a joke, I thought that was a really good idea.

I didn't expect to see Elosha in this episode and I was happy about it since she and Roslin were pretty close till she died. I know some of you thought that Roslin never even referred to Elosha after the Kobol arc but her surprise of seeing Elosha and hugging made up for that. Although that brings an interesting point. Was that Roslin's subconscious? A head-being taking the shape of Elosha? Or was it Elosha's spirit? The last option has an odd implication as Head-Six said that dying in Kobol means oblivion not afterlife. On a side note, I wondered if we would see Billy as well. Guess not :( Funny offtopic note: The writers originally planned that either Billy or Elosha would die but sometime after Elosha's death happened, they had to kill off Billy as well due to the actor.

Baltar's revelation was something I saw coming when he started to talk about sins. I was wondering if he would tell or somehow weasel his way through like he did in "Taking a Break From All Your Worries". Combined with Roslin's attempt to kill him, that was a strong scene.

The battle and its length takes on the convention of what we saw in Ressurection Ship Part II. If you rewatch it, the destruction of the Ressurection Ship there was also pretty easy (for the lack of a better word) and the we actually saw much less action there than we did in this episode. And it still looked pretty good. The destruction of the hub and the effect of the nukes (they used multiple nukes) reminded me of the Cloud Nine shockwave but I was surprised it was strong enough to take out the Basestars.

It wasn't "Guess What's Coming to Dinner" but it was quite close.

[Gort]

This was an amazing episode... The scene with Adama and Roslin towards the end was so touching!

Yeah, I'm not into the shipper stuff, but it was done in a touching way that didn't make cynical me barf. Kudos to the writers for that.

While I enjoyed Baltar's confession to Roslin, I have to say that it seemed out of character to me... I didn't realize Baltar felt that way.

Amazing what some morphine (or whatever), shock and fear of death can do to put your guard down. ;)

Didn't think the episode was the best of the season, but it was still a good episode and better on the second viewing.

Cavil was killed before the hub was destroyed, which might have given him some time to resurrect, so I tend to think that he'll be back along with Boomer at some point. Also, I doubt Boomer's death would be so distantly viewed, considering her major role in the show.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

>>You wouldn't.

Well I feel that you would. Or at last I would. And I'd still have my immortality. Perhaps the human saying "better safe than sorry" hasn't rubbed off on the cylons yet. Or maybe they haven't developed common sense yet.

The Cylons felt two things:



The hub jumps at random intervals. It relies on jump technology and stealth for protection, not military might.
It is virtually invisible, and cannot be located without the aid of a Hybrid.

Space is big. The odds of the humans finding the Hub is just about the same as the humans finding water back in the first season: they're astronomical.

*ahem*. Well you are correct that I haven't written for television. That's spot on. However, I have written before. I've written quite a lot actually, in my studies and in a creative writing unit (in which I excelled); not that my having written before is at all relevant, beyond being a derisive comment. In return, let me make an assumption: you haven't written for television either. It's just a guess, but it's a pretty safe bet. And yet, somehow, my comments or opinions are uninformed, whereas yours are not. Well, all informedness aside, let me just explain the basic logic behind the assumption I made:

I assumed that, being a writer or producer for an episode of television, you would want to most effectively use the time available to tell as coherent and/or complete a story as possible. I assumed that working within a time-frame would influence those behind the episode to try and fit a story within that frame.

But it seems this was foolish of me. If you do in fact sit on a higher tier of knowledge than I, then please educate me, relieve me of my stupidity (and that's not a sarcastic request unless you were being hypocritical).

You're correct in noting that I haven't written anything for television. So let me point out specifically where I'm coming from: I've interfaced with people who have produced television and film. I'm actually doing that a bit right now. (And I've read on the subject; JMS's book of scriptwriting actually sheds a lot of light on the process, as well as his various comments on the B5 newsgroup back in the day.)

By the way, you needed to re-read my sentence:

"[..] your opinion there comes off as completely uninformed and thus you are not worthy enough to have it."

I've added the bold emphasis to make the point that your opinion was coming off as uniformed, therefore clarifying the sentence that preceded it. "Comes off" implies that you were either: a) acting uniformed (maybe spoiling for a fight), or b) were, but I did not have enough evidence to support that assertion.

Had I really thought you were uniformed, the sentence would read like so:

"[..] your opinion is completely uninformed and thus you are not worthy enough to have it."

Further, without getting into too many of the gory details, in most television the script writer loses complete control of the script once the final draft is submitted and placed in the hands of actors, directors, and producers. Rarely is the writer involved with the process of seeing it filmed.

I'm not entirely sure how they do it with BSG, but since Jane Espenson is not Ron Moore, she doesn't have final control of what's done with her script. (Although she's a producer for the series, so she has probably just a bit more control of it, at least in the filming stage.)

It's actually common knowledge that BSG's scripts run over-time, as RDM repeatedly mentions—it's one of the things that's wrong with the show. So there's always additional material cut, which occurs in the editing process. Sometimes, when the DVD comes out, they'll add an extended episode like "Pegasus" or "Unfinished Business".

Another prime example is the hack-job that is "Hero". Blame for that can't be placed entirely at David Eick's feet, since a lot of the good scenes were actually deleted in post and are available on the season 3 DVD.

Despite being uninformed, I do try to be objective. My criticisms for this episode did not in fact erupt from a loathing of its writer. I went into the episode expecting the usual standard of BSG, and as I said, I've enjoyed her work on the show in the past.

Then why, pray tell, did you make the Season 6 Buffy statement earlier? (By the way, not to derail the thread, but you didn't answer my question on that one either... If you have a desire to answer it, I suggest that it'd be in a separate thread in the TV show sub-forum. May make for interesting conversation.)

I also realise that being the writer for an episode of BSG doesn't mean you're responsible for everything in it - each episode is broken by the writers together and revised by others (picked up from statements in interviews and RDM's podcast if you wanted a citation on that one).

Bingo. There are a lot more factors at work here than the writer's role in the episode, as I said above.

>>Please, hold the hyperbole and the self-aggrandizing moralizing... It's unbecoming. You really had a valid point up until the last sentence, then that killed any momentum you had before.

Morality has nothing to with this. None of my comments expressed any sentiment of moral self-superiority. All I said was that people, for this episode and the last, seemed to have been using "editing" as if it explains or justified the bulk of the episodes' problems. Sorry if it came out the wrong way. But I never said that other people's comments were 'uninformed', or 'stupid'. That's what you did to my comments.

Yes, it does... You had called everyone else who didn't like the episode "delusional" and implied that no one saw the same thing you saw, and thus the people who liked the episode are inferior (clearly since you believe we're all delusional). All of this is from the last sentence of your first post in the thread: "I guess I've swimming upstream against the flow if praise for the episode, so I'll let people continue throwing around the delusional, healing word editing."

Ergo, my original response.

Now onto Nivek...

Or, as Harlan Ellison says, "You don't have the right to your own opinion. You have a right to your own informed opinion.")

Well that's clearly a play on the quote from Patrick Moynihan, and whomever uttered it was clearly a moron. Oh wait, he files lawsuits after lawsuits (even tried to sue a newsgroup), and then got into a fight with a guy, signed a "non-agression pact", and then bragged about it to his 12 year old buddies (his readers?)........Yep --> moron.

I may not agree with every single thing that HE does, and I never intended for this discussion on HE or his actions over his career, however, the above quote is valid in the context it was used. It is another way of saying "know what you're talking about".

If you feel you want to talk about the great Harlan Ellison's various exploits, however, feel free to do it in one of the other sub-forums. :D

For instance, let's say you we're looking to build a pool deck on your home and wanted to know some important facts (cost, construction, et al.). Do you want an opinion on someone whose domain is being the "Comic Book Guy" from The Simpsons, or someone who has been in construction and has undertaken such projects before?

I pray that I really don't have to answer that question.

Seriously Joe, have you been drinking?

I drink every day.

My drinking habits include ingesting various cups of the following substances: green tea, coffee, and water.

Occasionally, I'll have a beer or a peachtree schnapps; I seriously considered hard liquor after what happened to the servers last Friday night/Saturday morning. :lol::D

Maybe we should start a thread on "What you are drinking?" It'll fit in very nicely with "What are you watching?" and "What are you listening to?" :thumbsup:

[Shane]

Great.. I reduce Joe to hard liquor. :p

[Starstruck]

>>Clearly, you haven't written anything before, much less for television, otherwise you would see the complete unrealistic stupidity of your statement. (By the way, don't take that personally... It's just that your opinion there comes off as completely uninformed and thus you are not worthy enough to have it. Or, as Harlan Ellison says, "You don't have the right to your own opinion. You have a right to your own informed opinion.")

*ahem*. Well you are correct that I haven't written for television. That's spot on. However, I have written before. I've written quite a lot actually, in my studies and in a creative writing unit (in which I excelled); not that my having written before is at all relevant, beyond being a derisive comment. In return, let me make an assumption: you haven't written for television either. It's just a guess, but it's a pretty safe bet. And yet, somehow, my comments or opinions are uninformed, whereas yours are not. Well, all informedness aside, let me just explain the basic logic behind the assumption I made:

I assumed that, being a writer or producer for an episode of television, you would want to most effectively use the time available to tell as coherent and/or complete a story as possible. I assumed that working within a time-frame would influence those behind the episode to try and fit a story within that frame.

But it seems this was foolish of me. If you do in fact sit on a higher tier of knowledge than I, then please educate me, relieve me of my stupidity (and that's not a sarcastic request unless you were being hypocritical).



Well, congratulations on your successful "creative writing unit". If we're going to flex muscles here I have a Master of Fine Arts in creative writing, have taught writing in the university and am a published writer, and I liked this episode and found the plot believable. But degrees and writing ability are not the point. The point is that there are many fans who post here of varying opinions, and as long as those opinions are stated thoughtfully and respectfully, they are treated in the same way. It seems this is your maiden voyage here, and you're coming in with a "smarter than thou" attitude. Frankly, if you look around, you'll see we're nice to each other, and as a whole we're also damned smart. You could learn something.

[1Nivek1]

Yes, it does... You had called everyone else who didn't like the episode "delusional" and implied that no one saw the same thing you saw, and thus the people who liked the episode are inferior (clearly since you believe we're all delusional). All of this is from the last sentence of your first post in the thread: "I guess I've swimming upstream against the flow if praise for the episode, so I'll let people continue throwing around the delusional, healing word editing."

Well, I did not take offense in that way, and I think people were being a bit hypersensitive to the statement. And just for full disclosure's sake Washi said this to me last week -->" Now there's gratuitous cynicism if I ever saw it. Are you trying to win some kind of prize for it? " :D

I think most people on the forums are fans. Sometimes some of us (:p) get disappointed, and some of us get a little emotional. I think Washi's original statement really wasn't aimed at the forum community, but was just a rant. By "delusional", I felt Washi was referring to the "suspension of belief" that can occur in SciFi, and he felt it was a bit too much. To parse words (as joe did with "comes off"), the adjective "delusional" describes the word "editing" and not "people" in the above quote.


Now onto Nivek...
:lol:


If you feel you want to talk about the great Harlan Ellison's various exploits, however, feel free to do it in one of the other sub-forums. :D

Well, I really don't care too much about Ellison, and I agree that an informed opinion is better than a "shot-from-the-hip" opinion. But, we are talking about fiction/stories, and I think even the knuckle-draggers among us are entitled to an "opinion".

Just felt that "..thus you are not worthy enough to have it[your opinion]." was a bit strong, and I jumped in to take a few bullets for Washi.


For instance, let's say you we're looking to build a pool deck on your home and wanted to know some important facts (cost, construction, et al.). Do you want an opinion on someone whose domain is being the "Comic Book Guy" from The Simpsons, or someone who has been in construction and has undertaken such projects before?

I pray that I really don't have to answer that question.:D.....I'll agree to the above analogy if one was speaking with the writer themselves or in a more "professional" enviornment. But this is a community of "fans" who have rants. I'd say it's more akin to a homeless person getting advice for a pool deck for his "home" ---> never gonna happen anyway, and it passes the time.


sheesh, everyone needs to take a step back here re: criticism of the episode. we're on the verge of another mini-flame war like the cally/tory dustup last month

Oh, I don't get mad at any of this. My intention was not to flame; but just to step in and take some of the heat. I think Washi is a genuine fan who's just venting steam. I have also expressed a little disappointment with the "pacing" of S4.0-4.5, but I thought this epi was far superior to "sine q".

Washi is still a bit of a newbie, and Joe is uber-fan (who knows every in and out w/ writers/actors/direction). I felt Joe violated the "newbie" rule, and was swinging pretty hard, so I came in to take a few shots.:thumbsup:

Heck, I don't even agree with Washi on the "suspension of belief" thing about the hub. I think the idea of "stealth-only" was plausible enough. HOWEVER, I thought the battle/difficulty was a little too "god-mode-on" / easy (as far as writing/action/pacing went).

I don't consider it a flame war until I hear :

".well yo momma is so fat...."

[Brian A. Reed]

As I do after reading most of his posts, I find myself agreeing with Joe. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and personally, I would prefer that expressed opinions be informed decisions (uniformed opinions are just noise). Joe's posts are very rarely noisy in this way.

Washi would have been far better served to have simply stated he didn't like the episode and then to list the reasons why he didn't like it. Simple enough without a diatribe about how stupid the rest of us are.

He also could have helped himself by considering his audience in this forum, the vast majority of whom thought very highly of the episode. By playing the holier/smarter than thou card, he came across as a condescending jerk. As I said before, no one likes an asshole.

Tact is a good thing, Washi.

[aylinn]

I loved this episode. Finally we got some battle :D Lucy Lawelss totaly stole the episode. She was saw amazingly cynical and honest. And the joke when she said to Roslin that she's the final Cylon. Classic.
And I loved Vipers on cable :D This was so cool.

[Xenon242]

Right, so I finally managed to watch Friday's episode. I rated it 'good', because it certainly was. The focus on Roslin was treated very, very well because the scene between her and the FTL jump Elosha apparition really confronted head-on what I think many fans had felt deep down over the run of the series. So, in that sense, it was very good to see it addressed.

I'm having difficulty even beginning to compare it to SQN because I just don't think it's really fair to, insofar as that whilst both episodes are interwoven, they address different things about different people; the underlying hub strike plot is just the vehicle to carry all of the other character and story elements. That said, I find 'The Hub' better in its pacing and overall writing. I also felt that Mary McDonnell's performance really was head-and-shoulders above what she did so far with the character. She really outdid herself this time.

Overall, though, I rated the ep 'good' because I'm still looking back and comparing series three and four to the mini and series 1. I just feel that the mini and S01 had a real edginess in the pacing, editing, writing and especially the dialogue that has long since been missing in the show and I really regret that. Also, I susppose I'm a little resistant to change and we all have to admit the change in the characters and story have been dramatic indeed.

Anyway, next week is coming, and based on the SciFi and Space previews, it's going to be nothing short of amazing.

Yours delusionally,
Xenon.

;)

[1Nivek1]

:D Lucy Lawelss totaly stole the episode. She was saw amazingly cynical and honest. And the joke when she said to Roslin that she's the final Cylon. Classic. And I loved Vipers on cable :D This was so cool.


Agree, Lawless owned the epi. (although, I groaned when they did the Roslin joke). Liked Baltar in this one too (admittedly I have a Gaius fetish). Thought his reference to the "flood" (washing away sin) was a nice gesture to those of us paying attention to the religious angle. Also liked the back-and-forth between Gaius and Roslin when they were interrogating the hybrid. Whomever the actress is for the hybrid, she must have some serious raisin-hands after sitting in the goo all that time :D!

I also have a Sharon-fetish, so like Osprey, the more of them hangin' around, the better. I'm not sure what I thought of Helo....I'm beginning to transfer my previous Helo-hate over to Anders (:devil:). Space battle was good as well (but when are they not!?)

[genji2000]

...the hack-job that is "Hero".

Don't you be dissing Hero. It rocks.

[aylinn]

Helo was good. I mean, he wasn't whining about everything and, what is unusual, sticked to Roslin's orders.
Also, Baltar trying to explain the Centurion waht is god. Amazing scene :D
And I totally love the ending. It was so cute. :) But I'm a girl so I can say that.

[Xenon242]

Don't you be dissing Hero. It rocks.

If by 'rocks' you mean, 'Hey, it was better than Black Market,' then you're right ... *cough*

[1Nivek1]

Also, Baltar trying to explain the Centurion waht is god. Amazing scene :D


Yeah, that was classic. When the Centurion tilted it's head a la confused dog, I laughed hysterically. I hope Callis finds his way into movies after BSG!


And I totally love the neding. I was like "So cute" :) But I'm a girl so I can say that.

:frown-ani:

[genji2000]

Helo was good. I mean, he wasn't whining about everything and, what is unusual, sticked to Roslin's orders.

Interesting that for once he did follow orders, and in the episode that Roslin confronts her personal deficiencies and overcomes them.

[aylinn]

:frown-ani:

Yeah, I know. Women :D But it really was a sweet scene. Although I thought that Adama won't say anything but just take her in his arms and kiss her. But maybe this "About time" was better :)

[genji2000]

Yeah, I know. Women :D But it really was a sweet scene. Although I thought that Adama won't say anything but just take her in his arms and kiss her. But maybe this "About time" was better :)

It beats "I know" or "Me too".

[Xenon242]

I hope Callis finds his way into movies after BSG!

He had a notable role as Tom in Bridget Jones' Diary and its sequel already, and those weren't low-profile films by any means, so I'd say he's well on his way.

[genji2000]

He had a notable role as Tom in Bridget Jones' Diary and its sequel already, and those weren't low-profile films by any means, so I'd say he's well on his way.

He'll just end up as another Hollywood English bad guy or working for scale in English period dramas.

I hope Grace Park and Tricia Helfer get good work after what they've achieved in BSG.

[Xenon242]

He'll just end up as another Hollywood English bad guy or working for scale in English period dramas.

I hope Grace Park and Tricia Helfer get good work after what they've achieved in BSG.

I hope he's not, for his sake, he's bri