FF, head characters, Final Cylon

[sWozzie]

What is the nature of the Final Five?

It seems they have two components, the human character (FFh) and the ghostly figure in the Opera House (FFg). I suggest that the FFg inhabits/possesses or projects into the FFh. This possession took place when the fleet reached the Ionian Nebula. This is indicated by the scenes at the end of Crossroads Pt II, Tory is physically sick, Anders gets a headache and all four suffer from confusion. They then feel compelled to go to the gym so that their new FFg components can get together and assess the situation and ensure that the possession has worked out as planned.

The FFg choose to inhabit important people in the fleet for obvious reasons. One of the reasons they did this may have been to protect the coloniels at the Ionian Nebula from almost certain destruction by the cylon fleet waiting there - remember it was effectively Anders FFg component that scared the cylon fleet away.

Now how can an FFg inhabit a standard human? I don't know, but there is already a precedent in the show - the head character. Baltar would seem a standard human, yet he seems to have a double consciousness that was installed during the explosion on Caprica. So this leads to the conclusion that the FFg and the head character in Baltar's mind are the same type of entity. This is supported by Tigh having visions of Ellen. Ellen appears to him "superimposed" over a real character that is stood in front of him (Caprica.Six) - this is exactly the same phenonemon that happened to Baltar when the raptor crashed on Kobol (Kobols Last Gleaming) and Head.Six appeared "superimposed" over Crashdown as he was helping him out of the burning raptor.

Head characters appear to their host in the image of someone that the host is familiar with in order to make the host more conducive to influence.

Now this is a pretty solid theory as of S4x08 and it implies that the identity of the final cylon is the head character, been around since season 1 and Tyrols quote about nobody being close (although I doubt Tyrol is an expert on all the theories flying about since I dare say that this has been suggested before even if it hasn't been explained like this). It also explains Natalie's quote about the FF being in the fleet and the reason only four heard the tune. Its also why RDM didn't need to decide who the four were going to be until late in the show, the FFh could be anyone. However it would appear that Head.Six is in the Last Supper pic but I explain how this is so in a subsequent post below.

It also points to the FF being instrumental in instigating "gods new generation". Hera is obviously tied to the head character which inhabits Baltar and Tigh's new FFg component makes Caprica.Six appear as Ellen in order to get Tigh to love and have sex with her.

So what about the head character that Caprica.Six can see? There are two options here and tbh neither of them are particulary solid. Both head characters could be one and the same which implies that an FFg can switch hosts but since it seems that the act of possession is very noticeable to the host, then this isn't a good explanation. Alternatively, and slightly outside of the theme of this thread, there are another seven ghostly figures, the original seven (O7) that reside in the space between life and death (not the Opera House like the FFg). Maelstrom.Leoben in one of these O7, he stands on the shore, on the "life" side of the river/stream which is a metaphor for the space between life and death - this is how he is able to interact with Kara. For an interesting discussion on the O7 and how they are different to the FF, see here (http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2303190&hl=original+seven). So the O7 idea implies the Caprica.Six's head character is an appearance of her corresponding O7 component and even though they both see a Head.Baltar, both of these entities have a different source.

Miscellaneous issues...
1. Anders red eye and Tories super strength are aspects of their FFg component.
2. Tyrol being drawn to the Temple before he was "inhabited" is explained by his mother being an oracle so he simply inherited a sixth sense.
3. When talking about the FF, you are talking about the FFg not the FFh. It is the FFg that the raider detected.
4. This theory seems to imply that D'Anna didn't recognize any of the FFh in the Temple, since the FFg weren't inhabiting their FFh hosts at that time and this fact could well prove/disprove this theory over the next two episodes (Hub/Revelations).

Now I would interested if anyone can provide any information that finds holes in this theory

[genji2000]

In an interview for Post Gazette, March 2007, RDM said they are full Cylons, i.e. they're not possessed humans.

Head Six is in the centre of the Last Supper pic. Only Baltar can see her.

[sWozzie]

In an interview for Post Gazette, March 2007, RDM said they are full Cylons, i.e. they're not possessed humans.

Head Six is in the centre of the Last Supper pic. Only Baltar can see her.

cylon = immortal being so the FFg and the S7 are both full cylons

Is it Head.Six or Caprica.Six? Regardless, its the FFg that is the final cylon, Head.Six/Head.Baltar are just how the FFg chooses to appear to Baltar - they don't actually look anything like that, they look like the Opera House figures - I concede this is a bit dubious but its inline with all the other misdirection that pervades the show

The Missing Figure. Someone is indeed absent from the table admits Moore: We have not yet revealed the final [unknown] Cylon. Does that mean the people already at the table aren’t the final Cylon? Moore laughs, you ferreted that our pretty slyly. I didn’t really want to give that away.

This is classic misdirection, and he did a bad job of it - Ive done this once or twice myself http://forums.scifi.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif You provide a clue that is quite obvious (space for the missing character), then you act disapointed with yourself when someone points it out and at the same time make them think they were clever to notice. "you ferreted that our pretty slyly" I mean c'mon Ron, you leave a big gaping space in the picture then you congratulate me for noticing it!

MR: Just so I understand what I think you told EW for the story that went with the photo, none of the people in that photo is the final Cylon, right?
RDM: Yeah. I said that. I probably shouldn’t have said that [laughs] but I have said that. So, yeah [that is the case, the final Cylon is not any of the people in the photo.

yeah he shouldn't have said that because the misdirection is so obvious all he effectively did was say that the final cylon is actually in the picture http://forums.scifi.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[sWozzie]

so the FFh (FF human) are still human...

Nicky = Tyrol + Cally, both human, Nicky has no importance
Hera = Helo + Sharon, human + S7 (first of the new generation)
Six's child = Tigh + Six, human + S7 (second of the new generation)

[genji2000]

cylon = immortal being so the FFg and the S7 are both full cylons

Is it Head.Six or Caprica.Six?

Cylon = mortal. Take away the Resurrection Ship and when they die, they die.

It's Head Six. Only Baltar can see her.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

The "Head" characters, in my view, are manifestations who put people on course to ensure that the cycle continues in perpetuity. They may not be spiritual as so much as some form of race memory in the BSG universe.

Head Six and Caprica Six have very little in common. The "Head" characters seem to be extremely different personalities from their real counterparts, and seem to be based on how the recipient of the "Head" visions see the real counterparts.

Anyway, I think the same of the Final Five in the Opera House. The Final Five in that opera house are conceptualized versions of the actual Final Five, with the stigma of being mysterious and foreboding, which is what we get in the visions.

Secondly, according to the Hybrid, the Five have been to the "home of the thirteenth". Which is odd to explain, but, ignoring the "how" for a moment, they've probably been to the Ionian Nebula before and therefore remember that way once they begin their approach to the nebula. As Conoy says in "Faith", certain Cylons can hear "songs"—anyone who can find the exact dialogue is much obliged.

So the Bravo-Sierra about Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and Foster being "possessed" by the "dream" Final Five is completely out there and whacked. It doesn't track with what we know about the BSG universe, given that "possession" has never been used before.

[genji2000]

The "Head" characters, in my view, are manifestations who put people on course to ensure that the cycle continues in perpetuity. They may not be spiritual as so much as some form of race memory in the BSG universe.

That's a good interpretation. Head characters are one of the things I hope they don't explain. It's such a powerful and useful device that it should be left to the viewers' interpretation.

Head Six and Caprica Six have very little in common. The "Head" characters seem to be extremely different personalities from their real counterparts, and seem to be based on how the recipient of the "Head" visions see the real counterparts.

Anyway, I think the same of the Final Five in the Opera House. The Final Five in that opera house are conceptualized versions of the actual Final Five, with the stigma of being mysterious and foreboding, which is what we get in the visions.

Spot on again, for me.

Secondly, according to the Hybrid, the Five have been to the "home of the thirteenth". Which is odd to explain, but, ignoring the "how" for a moment, they've probably been to the Ionian Nebula before and therefore remember that way once they begin their approach to the nebula. As Conoy says in "Faith", certain Cylons can hear "songs"—anyone who can find the exact dialogue is much obliged.

Can't find it. What's the scenario?

So the Bravo-Sierra about Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and Foster being "possessed" by the "dream" Final Five is completely out there and whacked. It doesn't track with what we know about the BSG universe, given that "possession" has never been used before.

Except in Hera, who keeps drawing 666 pictures.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Can't find it. What's the scenario?

Leoben says it sometime after they jump into the debris field... it's somewhere either between (or after) Thrace finding out that the "comet" in her vision was the baseship.

Except in Hera, who keeps drawing 666 pictures.

Well, that's the odd thing... How does Hera know that 6 wears the red dress? Also, the only Six to ever wear the red dress was Head Six, not Caprica. Nor any of the other models.

[Starstruck]

Leoben says it sometime after they jump into the debris field... it's somewhere either between (or after) Thrace finding out that the "comet" in her vision was the baseship.



Well, that's the odd thing... How does Hera know that 6 wears the red dress? Also, the only Six to ever wear the red dress was Head Six, not Caprica. Nor any of the other models.

Mmhmm, that's one reason I think the heads are an important part of the final plot line. I hope, as with everything else, that the reveal on how that works is cool, science-y, AND amazing, not hokey.

[crood]

Leoben says it sometime after they jump into the debris field... it's somewhere either between (or after) Thrace finding out that the "comet" in her vision was the baseship.



Well, that's the odd thing... How does Hera know that 6 wears the red dress? Also, the only Six to ever wear the red dress was Head Six, not Caprica. Nor any of the other models.

It's possible, even likely, that Hera is also sharing the vision with Athena, Roslin, and Caprica. Wasn't there a reference to her having nightmares?

[genji2000]

It's possible, even likely, that Hera is also sharing the vision with Athena, Roslin, and Caprica. Wasn't there a reference to her having nightmares?

The Six in the visions is wearing a white dress.

Hera probably is sharing the visions. I'm interested to see if Baltar is too (perhaps this is where he got the substance for his radio podcast about the president sharing visions with two Cylons). Roslin told him he was in the visions but we didn't hear his response.

[stavrosg]

Yes, Hera probably shares the visions, too. Hence the "bye-bye" moment we had a couple of episodes back.
Curiously, Baltar isn't, and it is there where it gets interesting.

[Osprey]

baltar isn't AS FAR WS WE KNOW .. .

/jus' sayin' ...

[genji2000]

baltar isn't AS FAR WS WE KNOW .. .

/jus' sayin' ...

True - Roslin told him but we didn't catch his response.

[sWozzie]

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2309161&st=0

[timbo]

Wait a minute, wasn´t that my idea?

[genji2000]

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2309161&st=0

Isn't that just this?

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1258

[redwards95]

D'anna saw the final five at the Temple of Five long before the fantastic four reached the Ionian nebula. It's clear from previews for Revelations that she is able to identify those 4 models therefore wouldn't it seem they couldn't be humans who were possessed after she was boxed? I'm not buying the possession theory. I could see the final five being the five priests resurrected or reincarnated but not possessed.

[Martyr of the Cause]

At first it was tempting to think of the Final Five as being the humans we've come to know and love for 3 seasons, and that they were merely possessed. But when you look back on what each of them has done, thinking about them in the context of being Cylons (likely programmed to be the shepherds of humanity), it actually makes sense. Tigh, Tory, and Dualla (who hasn't been revealed to be a Cylon) got together to try to stop humanity from making a major error by electing Baltar and settling on New Caprica. Anders led the Resistance against the Cylons on Caprica. Tyrol made the Blackbird to bring back hope when it was at its lowest. Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders
led the Resistance against the Cylons on New Caprica. The list goes on.

When you think about the Final Five as destined to help humanity survive, not some lousy sleeper agents with hidden programming like Boomer was, it isn't a bad thing to be one of the Final Five Cylons. They are each following their own nature, doing what seems natural to each of them, and in turn are guiding humanity forward. I think all these "possession" theories are just rationalizations to try to avoid admitting the truth that some of our favorite characters are and always have been Cylons.

[sWozzie]

D'anna saw the final five at the Temple of Five long before the fantastic four reached the Ionian nebula. It's clear from previews for Revelations that she is able to identify those 4 models therefore wouldn't it seem they couldn't be humans who were possessed after she was boxed? I'm not buying the possession theory. I could see the final five being the five priests resurrected or reincarnated but not possessed.


Naah its not clear, for a good explanation of why she couldn't have possibly recognized any of them go here

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2309366

[genji2000]

Naah its not clear, for a good explanation of why she couldn't have possibly recognized any of them go here

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2309366

Swozzie, haven't you already posted this thread before?

http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1258

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Sorry, it's a bullshit theory. Not buying a scrap of it...

[genji2000]

Sorry, it's a bullshit theory. Not buying a scrap of it...

Don't mince your words, Joe, tell him what you mean.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Don't mince your words, Joe, tell him what you mean.

:lol: Most of the theories since the beginning of the series have turned out to be grade A guano anyway.

Or, in other words, all this fanwanking and theorizing follows Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law) to a tee.

Anyway, for those of you wondering why I responded the way I did, this goes into the reasons for it (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=16561&postcount=6).

[genji2000]

:lol: Most of the theories since the beginning of the series have turned out to be grade A guano anyway.

Or, in other words, all this fanwanking and theorizing follows Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law) to a tee.

Anyway, for those of you wondering why I responded the way I did, this goes into the reasons for it (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showpost.php?p=16561&postcount=6).

Yes I liked that race memory theory, and also the idea that Baltar's Head Six would be Caprica Six as he wanted her (when she wanted access to the defence mainframe/was in love with him), not as she must have become when she revealed to him what she had done with his help - even that the psychological trauma of her revelations could have initiated the whole head thing. Likewise for her Head Baltar, which appeared arrogant and smart but was nevertheless on her side, and which appeared after the trauma of her resurrection.

[timbo]

I think you are being a bit hard on the guy. He is only doing what we are all doing - thinking up theories and then getting excited about them.

I think that Sturgeons law is ninety percent crap. Which means that in reality only ten percent of everything is crap. And anyway, it is a proven fact that 67.5 % of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[genji2000]

I think you are being a bit hard on the guy. He is only doing what we are all doing - thinking up theories and then getting excited about them.

I think he's posted this same thing before - got no joy on this forum - took it to scifi.com - then came back here posting it as a new theory.

I think that Sturgeons law is ninety percent crap.

Classic.

And anyway, it is a proven fact that 67.5 % of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Classic.

[sWozzie]

I think he's posted this same thing before - got no joy on this forum - took it to scifi.com - then came back here posting it as a new theory.


lol, actually it was on sci-fi, then I copy+pasted it here

doh!

[sWozzie]

Sorry, it's a bullshit theory. Not buying a scrap of it...

classic jealously response :)

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few." - Shunryu Suzuki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunryu_Suzuki)

;)

[genji2000]

lol, actually it was on sci-fi, then I copy+pasted it here

doh!

Either way, you've posted here twice, including trying to pass it off as a new thread today.

Tantamount to spam? Not quite I suppose but not far off.

Certainly self-aggrandizing.

:)

[sWozzie]

Either way, you've posted here twice, including trying to pass it off as a new thread today.

Tantamount to spam? Not quite I suppose but not far off.

Certainly self-aggrandizing.

:)

not quite, the link points to an updated version that includes explanations that stop people asking the same old questions (thereby reducing spam), what about the last supper pic, what about the temple etc etc

and yeah self aggrandizing if you want whatever that means, i prefer to think of it as inviting people to engage in intelligent discussion ;)

[genji2000]

not quite, the link points to an updated version that includes explanations that stop people asking the same old questions (thereby reducing spam), what about the last supper pic, what about the temple etc etc

and yeah self aggrandizing if you want whatever that means, i prefer to think of it as inviting people to engage in intelligent discussion ;)

It's a fairly singular view of the theory.
:yawn:

I don't want to bump this thread any more. It needs merging with the first time it was posted:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1258

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

classic jealously response :)

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few." - Shunryu Suzuki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunryu_Suzuki)

;)

And you're the expert, I take it? :lol:

[sWozzie]

It's a fairly singular view of the theory.
:yawn:

I don't want to bump this thread any more. It needs merging with the first time it was posted:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1258

of course its a singular view, if I were to describe all of its variations (of which there are many) then the post would go on forever! the point is to discuss it so if you have any useful/interesting comments then I'm more than happy to take them on board ;)

[sWozzie]

At first it was tempting to think of the Final Five as being the humans we've come to know and love for 3 seasons, and that they were merely possessed. But when you look back on what each of them has done, thinking about them in the context of being Cylons (likely programmed to be the shepherds of humanity), it actually makes sense. Tigh, Tory, and Dualla (who hasn't been revealed to be a Cylon) got together to try to stop humanity from making a major error by electing Baltar and settling on New Caprica. Anders led the Resistance against the Cylons on Caprica. Tyrol made the Blackbird to bring back hope when it was at its lowest. Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders
led the Resistance against the Cylons on New Caprica. The list goes on.

When you think about the Final Five as destined to help humanity survive, not some lousy sleeper agents with hidden programming like Boomer was, it isn't a bad thing to be one of the Final Five Cylons. They are each following their own nature, doing what seems natural to each of them, and in turn are guiding humanity forward. I think all these "possession" theories are just rationalizations to try to avoid admitting the truth that some of our favorite characters are and always have been Cylons.

yes there are quite a few reincarnation theories, there is even a "reincarnation interpretation" of the "possession theory"! in fact reincarnation is most peoples first thoughts after Crossroads Pt II, including mine but its fraught with issues that can be solved but the solutions just aren't as straightforward as this theory. Not that that means its any less valid, its a TV show at the end of the day, there are plotholes and inconsistancies which is to be expected and we all know the show is effectively made up on the fly guided by only a general set of storyarcs. Its just that this theory "makes most sense", that doesn't make it right but its only presented here as a sensible theory, imo the most sensible theory.

[sWozzie]

And you're the expert, I take it? :lol:

enough! if you want to antagonize then do it via PM - there are many people on here that aren't interested in reading that sort of stuff

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

enough! if you want to antagonize then do it via PM - there are many people on here that aren't interested in reading that sort of stuff

Actually, I find it extremely interesting how you can dish out little barbs towards me like "classic jealously response" and this gem by Shunryu Suzuki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunryu_Suzuki), "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few," yet when anyone calls you out on your uncouth comments you get extremely defensive.

Which is the reason why I replied the way I did, to give you a taste of your own medicine.

Now you're a smart guy, so I'm gonna give you a piece of advice: don't be beholden to any theory you've ever concocted, because Ron Moore and company are going to do what they want to do, without fail. So if that means making Tigh a Cylon, that's what that means. :thumbsup:

We're all along for the ride.

Further, I have an intense distrust of anyone who considers themselves an "expert" in anything... Someone who is a true expert is usually someone who is extremely knowledgeable, but can make the same mistakes as anyone else. An expert is someone who continues to search for things, keeps an open mind, always has something to learn, and doesn't resort to glib comments like "classic jealousy response". Just saying.

[mariarilke]

If ninety percent of everything is crap, then how do we know which one's the non-crap drenched in all that crap?

All will be revealed!

[ranvir]

You are all fools. But, seeing your helpless attempts at generating a coherent answer, I have been moved to pity and have decided to enlighten you all.

I worked out BSG and discovered the ultimate answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7d4JVB2Uc&feature=related.

[sWozzie]

Wait a minute, wasn´t that my idea?

where is your idea? got a link? what do you think Starbucks destiny is all about? what role do the 10 (known) LOK play, are they related to the 12 cylon models? why the 7/5 split? what about TSBLAD and the function of the Opera House? is Hera going to do anything interesting except scribble on a notepad? what was Shelley Godfrey and Maelstrom.Leoben? :)

[sWozzie]

Actually, I find it extremely interesting how you can dish out little barbs towards me like [blah blah blah]


Have you got anything interesting to say regarding the OP? I dont mind participating in your little games while its a bit of fun, but when you get all serious and personal about it, its time to move on.

Sorry, it's a bullshit theory. Not buying a scrap of it...

now are you going to justify this response? Have you got a better theory? If so I would love to read it - link? :)

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Have you got anything interesting to say regarding the OP? I dont mind participating in your little games while its a bit of fun, but when you get all serious and personal about it, its time to move on.

now are you going to justify this response? Have you got a better theory? If so I would love to read it - link? :)

I've already posited my reasons for why your theory is felgercarb. It's post #6 in this very thread. :)

Also, I've taken the liberty of merging the threads, per genji's suggestion, since they're the same thing.

[sWozzie]

The "Head" characters, in my view, are manifestations who put people on course to ensure that the cycle continues in perpetuity. They may not be spiritual as so much as some form of race memory in the BSG universe.

Head Six and Caprica Six have very little in common. The "Head" characters seem to be extremely different personalities from their real counterparts, and seem to be based on how the recipient of the "Head" visions see the real counterparts.

Anyway, I think the same of the Final Five in the Opera House. The Final Five in that opera house are conceptualized versions of the actual Final Five, with the stigma of being mysterious and foreboding, which is what we get in the visions.

Secondly, according to the Hybrid, the Five have been to the "home of the thirteenth". Which is odd to explain, but, ignoring the "how" for a moment, they've probably been to the Ionian Nebula before and therefore remember that way once they begin their approach to the nebula. As Conoy says in "Faith", certain Cylons can hear "songs"—anyone who can find the exact dialogue is much obliged.

So the Bravo-Sierra about Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and Foster being "possessed" by the "dream" Final Five is completely out there and whacked. It doesn't track with what we know about the BSG universe, given that "possession" has never been used before.

So you whole argument against "possession" is based on the fact that you think the FFg (glowing figures) only appear in "dreams".

If you think back to the episode Hero, when she was downloading after being shot by a centaurian, she experienced both the past (New Caprica) and the future (Temple, reaching out hand etc) which should tell you something about the space between life and death etc Hero happened a few episodes before she actually did stand on the Eye of Jupiter.

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2306138&st=0&p=5136276&#entry5136276

Now in Hero this was a vision, during download she has a vision of what was going to happen in the future when she stands on the Eye of Jupiter.

So by your intepretation this means that she had a vision of having a vision - obvious nonsense!

As for possession not being used before well obviously thats not true either, though possession isn't a good term since its misleading but Head.Six obviously "possesses" Baltar so the concept has been used in almost every episode since the start.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

So you whole argument against "possession" is based on the fact that you think the FFg (glowing figures) only appear in "dreams".

If you think back to the episode Hero, when she was downloading after being shot by a centaurian, she experienced both the past (New Caprica) and the future (Temple, reaching out hand etc) which should tell you something about the space between life and death etc Hero happened a few episodes before she actually did stand on the Eye of Jupiter.

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2306138&st=0&p=5136276&#entry5136276

Now in Hero this was a vision, during download she has a vision of what was going to happen in the future when she stands on the Eye of Jupiter.

So by your intepretation this means that she had a vision of having a vision - obvious nonsense!

As for possession not being used before well obviously thats not true either, though possession isn't a good term since its misleading but Head.Six obviously "possesses" Baltar so the concept has been used in almost every episode since the start.

"Head Six" (and, in fact, the "Head Characters") are nothing more than a plot device to peer into the internal dialogue of the main characters—Baltar, Caprica-Six, etc. All this over-analysis of them is just as banal—and older than—that over-analyzed piece of felgercarb "Last Supper" picture.

What I said was that the "Final Five" in the dreams (the white cloaked Minbari wannabes) are the interpretations of the people who experience in the vision. Since no one knows who the frak they are—aside from Three—they're portrayed as "mysterious" and foreboding, hence the cloaks.

Three was never able to keep the images of the Final Five in her mind despite her kill-and-resurrect routine, because she was relying on race memory to do it. Her mind was playing tricks on her, as none of her drawings matched what the Final Five looked like.

The drawing and her visions leading up to the Temple of Five excursion were glorified red-herrings. The whole "end of line" shtick was an interpretation of the Significant Seven's program to not think or speak of the Final Five. There's no other significance there, other than to insert a Tron reference.

However, once she entered the Temple of Five and experienced the vision that was projected by the Temple, it is then that she was able to learn the identities of the Five... because the Five had been there previously, and likely stored their likenesses into the projection device at the temple. (For all we know, it was there to make Galen Tyrol or one of the Final Five remember their mission, before being activated at the nebula.) So her vision there was "real", unlike the others... because the message was not meant for her.

You see, Three's brain was able to interpret what the device was sending to her brain. So her "vision" there was real, and is thus different than any other visions we had seen previously.

Now I mentioned that the device was not meant for Significant Seven Cylon eyes at all... It was meant for "the Chosen One", which was Baltar—if we're to believe the Hybrid, which we have no reason not to given how correct she and her forefather have been at this point. Three usurped that mantle, however, and died as a result. In the same way Cate Blanchett's character in Indy 4 replaced the crystal skull and asked to "know everything" and dies as a result. Common cliché, rather pathetic and poorly done, really, as with most of the poorly planned third season.

As for possession, Baltar's actions have always been in "reaction" to what Head Six is doing. Again, she's the subconscious manifesting itself for the sake of the audience—oh, look, you remember that thing that hot blonde had in my purse, well, here's another one under the DRADIS console. Ooh, here's Boomer and she's a Cylon... oh, my, what ever shall I do?

So, again, the Head characters are nothing more than contrivances to see into the inner psyches of the characters... with a dab of latent, religious BS to make them fit within the construct of the series.

[sWozzie]

"Head Six" (and, in fact, the "Head Characters") are nothing more than a plot device to peer into the internal dialogue of the main characters—Baltar, Caprica-Six, etc. All this over-analysis of them is just as banal—and older than—that over-analyzed piece of felgercarb "Last Supper" picture....

Well the idea that the head characters are nothing more than a figment of the imagination does nothing to explain how they appear to know about future events. Hera being born for instance as well as numerous other incidents though you could say that at least some of these could also have been known subconsciously - the tracking device in CIC, the best place to bomb the cylon refinery etc

Besides, your criticising "over analysis" and then you proceed to present a very convuluted "theory" involving "race memory" and such like, things that have no basis in the show. Thats not to say your wrong, but there are theories out there, such as the "possession" theory that explain most of BSG without inventing a single concept or fact so anyone that believes in the value of Ockams Razor is always going to go with the simplest explanation.

[mariarilke]

*major Indie 4 Spoiler*


" In The Same Way Cate Blanchett's Character In Indy 4 Replaced The Crystal Skull And Asked To "know Everything" And Dies As A Result.

[ranvir]

I think it's fun to speculate, but I don't buy any theories as in the end it will end up however Ron Moore decides it will end up. And invoking Occam's Razor won't change that—the story will be as convoluted as RDM wants it to be.

With regard to the suggestion that the Head Six and whatnot are just manifestations of the subconscious or whatever, can that really be true? As has already been mentioned, they seem to know future events (or have knowledge otherwise external to the person they present themselves to). Furthermore, look back to that episode where the military interferes with Baltar's cult. The marine strikes Baltar and he gets back up but only because he is lifted up by the Head Six. And it doesn't look like he lifts himself up to outside observers… He is raised up unnaturally without exerting himself at all (he just kinda floats back up).

[redwards95]

The marine strikes Baltar and he gets back up but only because he is lifted up by the Head Six. And it doesn't look like he lifts himself up to outside observers… He is raised up unnaturally without exerting himself at all (he just kinda floats back up).

In RDM's podcast for that episode, he revealed that it was supposed to be ambiguous whether Head Six actually picked Baltar up but that the way it was actually shot made it seem clearer than he intended. Of course that raises the interesting question of what is more canonical: what is actually seen in the show or what the producer says outside the show? I guess we will just have to wait and see how they explain the head characters in the rest of season 4.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

In RDM's podcast for that episode, he revealed that it was supposed to be ambiguous whether Head Six actually picked Baltar up but that the way it was actually shot made it seem clearer than he intended. Of course that raises the interesting question of what is more canonical: what is actually seen in the show or what the producer says outside the show? I guess we will just have to wait and see how they explain the head characters in the rest of season 4.

Well, you have to take in mind the spectators to the event as well. They seemed to act as if everything were normal... relatively speaking.

Otherwise, it stands to reason that the marine would've defecated his marine-issue undergarments had Baltar floated off the deck.

[sWozzie]

There is alot of confusion over what is a head character and what isn't, personally I think its easy to tell when one comes on screen, but alot of people fail to differentiate between the camera showing you what a character is thinking and then what they are actually seeing which leads to ridiculous theories of head cats, head vipers and even head planets!

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

There is alot of confusion over what is a head character and what isn't, personally I think its easy to tell when one comes on screen, but alot of people fail to differentiate between the camera showing you what a character is thinking and then what they are actually seeing which leads to ridiculous theories of head cats, head vipers and even head planets!

Right, there are definitely cues as to who is a "head character" and who is merely a figment of people's imagination. (Lance and Carolanne come to mind, as they're merely just parts of the person's psyche).

However, the confusion stems from the fact that the head character's nature is nebulous.

Also, the "Head Baltar" that Baltar himself experienced just came out of nowhere and seems to have been dropped, at least in the first ten. Same thing with the whole "Sons of Ares" thing...

[sWozzie]

so what do you think Head.Ellen is? how many head characters are in the show?

[genji2000]

so what do you think Head.Ellen is? how many head characters are in the show?

What is "Head.Ellen"? When has Ellen appeared as a 'head' character?

[pagad]

You could argue Ellen/CapSix as she appeared to Tigh was a "head" character. Although it's the first instance in the series of projecting one person onto another.

[genji2000]

That's exactly what I thought was a fine example of what's not a head character. So there are no instances I've overlooked of Ellen appearing to Tigh as a separate entity and having a conversation or physically interacting with him?

[Xenon242]

So there are no instances I've overlooked of Ellen appearing to Tigh as a separate entity and having a conversation or physically interacting with him?

I don't believe there are. It's just Saul Tigh going very, very looney.

[genji2000]

It's just Saul Tigh going very, very looney.

Makes a change.

It could be that, or it could be that Ellen was the first production Six, manufactured around thirty years ago, and we're seeing Tigh seeing Ellen in Caprica Six.

[Xenon242]

It could be that, or it could be that Ellen was the first production Six, manufactured around thirty years ago, and we're seeing Tigh seeing Ellen in Caprica Six.

... which would bring us right back to Joe's comment in another thread about that, vis-à-vis poor Tricia Helfer. :D

[genji2000]

All threads lead to one conclusion.

[sWozzie]

You could argue Ellen/CapSix as she appeared to Tigh was a "head" character. Although it's the first instance in the series of projecting one person onto another.

in Kobols Last Gleaming, Head.Six was 'projected' over Crashdown as he was helping Baltar out of the burning Raptor

check out the Head.Six theory blog - it explains it all in a very understandable and believable fashion

http://battlestarrevealed.wordpress.com/2008/06/29/the-headsix-theory/

[genji2000]

"This inhabiting took place when the fleet reached the Ionian Nebula."

I can't read any further. It sounds like a bad Stephen King novel.

[sWozzie]

"This inhabiting took place when the fleet reached the Ionian Nebula."

I can't read any further. It sounds like a bad Stephen King novel.

It requires that you have watched the show and have at least a basic understanding of what is going on

You could argue Ellen/CapSix as she appeared to Tigh was a "head" character. Although it's the first instance in the series of projecting one person onto another.

That's exactly what I thought was a fine example of what's not a head character. So there are no instances I've overlooked of Ellen appearing to Tigh as a separate entity and having a conversation or physically interacting with him?

The fact you either didn't know or simply forgot about the Head.Six 'superimposed' over Crashdown in the burning Raptor scene indicates that your not going to understand the Head.Six theory, or any theory for that matter. Get the DVD's then watch the show (again?), then have another go at reading the theory :thumbsup:

[genji2000]

It requires that you have watched the show and have at least a basic understanding of what is going on





The fact you either didn't know or simply forgot about the Head.Six 'superimposed' over Crashdown in the burning Raptor scene indicates that your not going to understand the Head.Six theory, or any theory for that matter. Get the DVD's then watch the show (again?), then have another go at reading the theory :thumbsup:

No need to be like that, sWozzie. I'm not having a go at you personally, just the whole FFg/FF-whatever theory and the fact that you do spam a bit.

The whole "possession" thing is just stupid, but I do admit, stupid in my opinion.

As for Crashdown, you might as well argue that Head Six was 'superimposed' over the old guy on Caprica when Helo gives up his seat for Baltar. Just watch a bit more closely. It doesn't mean Head Six has taken over the physical space of Crashdown or the old guy, just that Baltar sees and responds to her rather than the actual physical space in front of him.

Honestly, I'm not trying to make you out to be a complete spacker so don't do it to me, eh?

[sWozzie]

spacker lol, fight fire with fire :D but yeah your right, "possession" is stupid but thats because its a bad choice of words, gives the whole thing a horror story perspective and makes it subject to ridicule right from the off - so yeah bad choice of words which is why Ive updated it with no mention of possession

all I am saying is that the FF have head characters in the same way Baltar has a head character - call that what you will, possession, projection, inhabiting, aquiring a head character is 'activation', maybe they were even reincarnated with them its all the same thing from a certain point of view

but you can't deny it leads to an elagant solution that is in line with all the misdirection and confusion that you should expect from any 'final solution'

[genji2000]

spacker lol, fight fire with fire :D but yeah your right, "possession" is stupid but thats because its a bad choice of words, gives the whole thing a horror story perspective and makes it subject to ridicule right from the off - so yeah bad choice of words which is why Ive updated it with no mention of possession

all I am saying is that the FF have head characters in the same way Baltar has a head character - call that what you will, possession, projection, inhabiting, aquiring a head character is 'activation', maybe they were even reincarnated with them its all the same thing from a certain point of view

but you can't deny it leads to an elagant solution that is in line with all the misdirection and confusion that you should expect from any 'final solution'

It's a fairly well-rounded theory and I admire the work you've put in with the process maps and that, but (sorry) I do think it's daft because:


Cylon = cybernetic life-form node
Cylons are synthetic humanoids
There are twelve models of Cylon
The Final Five are five of the twelve models
They're Cylons, and they have been from the start


It doesn't matter if you call it possession, inhabitation, squatting or option-to-buy, the Watchtower Four were not humans before the Ionian Nebula.

IMO. If it turns out that you're correct then I'll applaud you and sell my BSG DVDs and OSTs on ebay.

[sWozzie]

I see where your coming from but bear in mind the theory doesn't attempt to explain exactly what the Lords of Kobol actually are. The theory still works if the FF turn out to reincarnate (although not as well) and also if the FF turn out to be first generation cylons created by humans on Earth thousands of years ago.

Personally I prefer "otherworldly" beings, like Gandalf :lol: but thats just me, I suspect RDM will leave their origins a mystery so the audience can decide for themselves - in which case your preferences listed above will still work.

EDIT didnt they do the same thing with TOS? I know nothing about TOS but read that the beings of light were never fully explained

[genji2000]

I see where your coming from but bear in mind the theory doesn't attempt to explain exactly what the Lords of Kobol actually are. The theory still works if the FF turn out to reincarnate (although not as well) and also if the FF turn out to be first generation cylons created by humans on Earth thousands of years ago.

Personally I prefer "otherworldly" beings, like Gandalf :lol: but thats just me, I suspect RDM will leave their origins a mystery so the audience can decide for themselves - in which case your preferences listed above will still work.

EDIT didnt they do the same thing with TOS? I know nothing about TOS but read that the beings of light were never fully explained

I meant to point you in the direction of the beings of light, but I forgot. I know nothing of TOS but I thought you might be diligent enough to work out if they have any bearing on your theory.

Gandalf was a spiritual being, a sub-god, one of the Maiar, and was sent back by the Valar to complete his task. Tolkien wrote from a specific spiritual, even Catholic, perspective. I can't see that in BSG and that's why I can't get into your theory.

[timbo]

Honestly, and this is not a joke. Every time I see a thread like this where people point out the various problems with each FF scenario, the idea of Tigh not being a cylon doesn´t seem so crazy. Please, bearing in mind that they are supposed to be twelve MODELS, the writers seem to have painted themselves into a corner.

Just for a moment, forget your pre-formed ideas and preconceptions, and imagine a situation where five lesser characters suddenly step forward and confess to being cylons. Most of the other cylons were lesser characters. The dramatic impact of Tigh and the others finding out that they are not really Cylons would be great, and I am sure they could find a way to write this that would be just as convincing as the other possibilities they are left with. I know this idea seemed crazy at the beginning, but now it is just one crazy theory amid a sea of crazy theories.

[genji2000]

I know this idea seemed crazy at the beginning, but now it is just one crazy theory amid a sea of crazy theories.

And it may well be why we (or at least I) don't utterly write off all these crazy theories as ludicrous. You've single-handedly raised my lunacy tolerance levels.

Do you think it's going to get worse, month by month, as we suffer from withdrawal symptoms?

[sWozzie]

c'mon guys there is crazy and then there is craaaazeeey!!!!

I wouldn't put the Head.Six theory in the same category as the "Viper is the final cylon" theory but lets face it, the final solution is going to be crazy to a certain extent anyway - even if RDM posted it under an alias, it would be ridiculed out of site.

EDIT: genji2000 nice sig :)

[genji2000]

c'mon guys there is crazy and then there is craaaazeeey!!!!

I wouldn't put the Head.Six theory in the same category as the "Viper is the final cylon" theory but lets face it, the final solution is going to be crazy to a certain extent anyway - even if RDM posted it under an alias, it would be ridiculed out of site.

EDIT: genji2000 nice sig :)

I think inhabitation is craaayaaayaaaazey, but at this stage I have to admit that anything goes, especially if you have a couple of flowcharts and maybe a venn diagram.

And for all Kara's defence of those three Cylons - it was the plane what gave her the answer.

[smelly_feet]

In an interview for Post Gazette, March 2007, RDM said they are full Cylons, i.e. they're not possessed humans.

Head Six is in the centre of the Last Supper pic. Only Baltar can see her.


------------------------------
What about Shelly Godfrey? everyone saw her, until she vanished into thin air. Maybe she's the final living in the shadows in hiding.

Maybe shelly = head six?

[genji2000]

------------------------------
What about Shelly Godfrey? everyone saw her, until she vanished into thin air. Maybe she's the final living in the shadows in hiding.

Maybe shelly = head six?

I think Shelley's a deliberate enigma. Head Six disappeared whilst Shelley was on the scene, sort of intimating that possibly Head Six might be able to appear to more than just Baltar (did she physically kiss Adama or just try to?), but then she left her spectacles behind, which inferred a physical presence, and hence not Head Six.

[sWozzie]

------------------------------
What about Shelly Godfrey? everyone saw her, until she vanished into thin air. Maybe she's the final living in the shadows in hiding.

Maybe shelly = head six?
I wouldnt be surprised if the explanation behind Shelley Godrfrey turns out to be the same explanation of Resurrected.Starbuck, though I think its more likely she won't be fully explained because the direction of the show has changed since then - Kara was going to appear out of thin air in Lee's locker at the end of Crossroads, but they shot the Viper scene as a backup and at the last minute decided to use it because appearing out of thin air was a bit too supernatural

[Batman316]

*didn't think a single question warrented a new thread so here it is:

Has Head 6 EVER actually lied to Baltar?

I can't think of one occasion.... The reason I ask is simple. If she's never lied to him then why arn't we assuming that she (Head People) is infact an Angel of God like she claims? She never refers to herself a a cylon.... only as an Angel. *shrugs* But I am curious if anyone remembers H6 being caught in a lie.

Also gives us the possibly that H6 and Shelly are one in the same.

[genji2000]

*didn't think a single question warrented a new thread so here it is:

Has Head 6 EVER actually lied to Baltar?

I can't think of one occasion.... The reason I ask is simple. If she's never lied to him then why arn't we assuming that she (Head People) is infact an Angel of God like she claims? She never refers to herself a a cylon.... only as an Angel. *shrugs* But I am curious if anyone remembers H6 being caught in a lie.

Also gives us the possibly that H6 and Shelly are one in the same.

Nobody's assuming that she isn't an angel of god. For my part, I hope TPTB don't reveal who or what she is. However, some people tell the truth sometimes too. Just because she may not have lied doesn't mean she is an angel, nor would it mean she is Shelley Godfrey.

I must watch the scenes on the beach again, when Baltar asks, "am I a Cylon?". I can't recall what Head Six's reaction to him mentioning projection was. Was she surprised? Did she indicate at all that she didn't already know about projection?

[timbo]

c'mon guys there is crazy and then there is craaaazeeey!!!!


C´mon Swozzie, there are more than just two levels of crazy. There are many shades ranging from mildly silly right round the dial until crazy actually becomes reasonable. It is no coincidence that crazy and correct start with the same letter.


And it may well be why we (or at least I) don't utterly write off all these crazy theories as ludicrous. You've single-handedly raised my lunacy tolerance levels.

Do you think it's going to get worse, month by month, as we suffer from withdrawal symptoms?

Hopefully, yes, much worse. Only outside the box thinkers and some amphibians will survive.

[st.barthgirl]

very cogent explanation, joe jr. i buy.