Vipers are rubbish and various other rants.

[AnyP]

Heya fellow Geels, I think Vipers are pretty rubbish and just could not compete with Earths 21st Century air forces. If we made Eurofighters spaceworthy we would easily defeat anything the cylons of galactica could throw against us, mpartly because were awesome and mostly because Will Smith in Independence Day shows us how amazing Earth planes are against spaceships which seem to have skipped developing interceptor missiles - heck all we need are a few parachutes and moron aliens and we win...

Anyway - for starters, as we all know, Wikipedia is the modern oracle of wisdom and is never incorrect therefore when it makes statements about Colonial Raptors such as:

"[Vipers have] 2 x forward-firing Thorsen 30mm mass accelerator cannons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_weapons_in_science_fiction#Televisi on) mounted in the wing roots, each with an 800 round ammunition capacity and a 20 round-per-second fire rate"

Now by my understanding the cannons are the main armaments used in space (rather than interceptor missiles - which would presumaby work quite as well against starfighters as they do against plannet bound counterparts) and to only have 1600 rounds is quite pathetic especially since apparently they have only 40 seconds worth of fire time... Of course the Wikipedia artcle says they can fire missiles but then never seem to use them - neither do the cylons (except in the miniseries) which seems a bit strange.

On a side note I will accept the following arguments:
A) The person who wrote the wikipedia article had (just like me) way too much time on his/her hands.
B) Missed a zero off the figure - which would be a much more acceptable figure.

Of course you could argue that Vipers are SO good they wouldnt need 40 seconds to save the day - especially if Thrace is flying. Well I beg to differ. At the end of series three we see her fly behind Lee and he keeps trying to turn round and can't see her. Now that is one serious design floor. On Earth they figured that out in WW1 and so added a rear mounted machine gun to frag such despicable cads (heh classic chair force tactics - button pushing and shooting people in the back). Heck even the worst space fighter in the world, the Tie Fighter, has a peep hole in the back to spot those sneaky, sneaky rebels. Every modern fighter has a bubble cockpit (at least I think they do). If they can't do that then a couple of wing mirrors would surfice! Though that might look like a flying car...

Also whats up with the lack of VTOL technology? Sure a VTOL capable ship would be useful in space! Then even gimps who are high on stims (Kat) can land easily. Also if your firing tubes are a gift shop then just take the ships to the hanger and launch British Harrier style. Wow I amaze even myself...

Also wouldnt engineering be better in zero G? Not only would that look very cool but it would make sense - heavy repairs? No worries mate! Just push a heavy viper and it floats round and no more lying under vipers pulling them to bits - in Zero G its not an issue. Also no more pesky liability disputes from cripled engineers claiming personal injury. Result.
Also when you are building your own ship you get none of that "its a two man job chief" what you get is "Not in Zero G! Swivel on it punk".

Though I do accept that budget constraints in the TV show prevent this... Also the heart warming moment of the crew gathering round with the cliche of mankind banding together against a common enemy is more palatable than attitude a real man dont need no help from no-one. I'd love to see the chief give the rest of teh crew the finger and suceed - that would be an oscar moment.

Also I read on another forum somewhere that Balter isnt evil. I can't be bothered to go to it so I'll answer that one here - yes he is he gave a cylon who has proven pschological problems, a terrorist in the fleet and murdered a colonial commander a nuclear bomb that resulted in the destruction of one of the few interesting ships in the fleet, killed several thousand people, doomed the settlement on new caprica (though its debateble whether that was a good or bad thing) lead to teh detruction of the Pegasus, and generally wasted 6 months plus of the lives of everyone in the fleet who could have travelled to Earth sooner. The best solution for Balter is to keep him locked in a room as a pet scientist and if he refuses to cooperate put him in an air lock and slowly let the air out until he changes his mind and starts being helpful again.

I think I prove my point on why I should run Galactica - because I would be better than the army of incompetants who run the colonial military.

[Sparrow]

Were do i begin?

-Vipers are not the most eficient starfighter design by far.. if would go then we would find Babylon 5's Starfury or Last Starfighter gunstar wich until now are the most realistic space designs for a fighter.
the problem is that 1- New Galactica series decided to carry on the Viper concept.. they envolved the mk1 a bit to make it a more modern mk2 and created the mk7 as a "today's version" .. so its a artistic licence rather than pure eficiency.. lets have in count that the original Viper concept comes almost straight from StarWars's X-Wing fighter as the Viper is almost a ripoff of the T-65 .

and 2-the Viper is a both space and planetary fighter..so it must be able to operate well in atmosphere... Starfury's as we know them cant operate in atmospheres (except the newer Thunderbolt fury's and even then they are not much agile) so the Viper design is not all bad after all..

-Round duration. I agree with you .. the show shows us many times rates of fire much slower than 20rpm .. maybe they can select the rate of fire and lower or higher it acording to target specifications.. a raider needs a few hits.. a basestar or a heavy raider need more.. etc 1600 rounds may look few. but have in count that the Viper is a 9m fighter ... the F-16 wich is 15m long carries only 500rounds.. same the F-14 and the 19m long F-15 carries arround 900.. the A-10 wich is centered arround the 30mm gun carries 1174rounds.. having in count that rounds ocupe phisic space carring 1600 in a 9m long fighter is stremely good packing.. i recon fire rate should be 3-5rpm per canon..even in razor when Adama shots down his second Cylon raider (just before Columbia goes down) the fire rate seems too low.. almost like TOS lasers..

-About rear visibility..
its an issue but you are packing the engines behind and you have some extra protection from rear shots.. that saved surelly Hotdog and Apollo's lifes .. they both were shot from behind and the engines nacelles took the hit instead them.. also its as we said a leftover issue from the TOS Viper.. anyway dradis appear to work in 3D 360 so they dont need so much the rear.. i mean, they even dont have mirrors wich almost all modern fighters have

-0g in work zones may look great to pull pieces but is a double razor.-. in zero G fluids work diferent.. repair masilles and resines work diferently.. is harder to refuel.. etc obviously they work in a 1g enviroment because either the series would not be able to be done economically.. but its easier and confortable to move arround in 1G than in zero G..also in zero G you may loose tools more easier and as i said would have to watch fluids closely.. in 1g you can have a can of flamable oil or tylium under control.. in zero G a big pull and you have the entire hangar flooded with bubbles of oil or tylium.. besides the chief was behind stuborn.. they have lifters to pull heavy pieces or even entire ships like when they pull in the Raider

[ShadowEnigma]

I'm too lazy to discuss the rest of it, but 1600 rounds is a lot of ammunition to have. Fighters in WW2 with that much ammunition could easily shoot down, 5, 6, sometimes even 10 planes . If you want documented proof let me know, I just don't feel like pulling my research out haha.

Why don't we see missiles? Probably simply because they don't produce them. They are expensive to build, and quick to go. It's a lot easier to just keep making rounds and to save the missiles for a more important situation. Also the raiders seem to prefer to engage head on, so it's just easier to use the guns.

If you want to get into a real world vs. BSG discussion, there are a dozen different variables that need to be looked at. I think it's a little unfair to bring that up.
Yes they are trying to make it believable, realistic, and good looking, but it's also a drama and is built around the story and such.

[UnRep]

But. Cool go faster stripes on the mark twos!! Weeee Whooosh!:thumbsup:

[AnyP]

Well yes. But thats 800 round per gun. For a space supremacy fighter who's sole purpose is to eliminate incoming enemy fighters who's sole purpose is to eliminate you its not very much ammunition.

Why don't the cylons produce them. They don't have the limitations of the colonials (I was about to type confederates there) except possibly a logistical nightmare.

Ok I accept the argument about zero G, but we could still have the 1 g solution which would be fun.

[Sparrow]

As far as i know we saw missiles up to battle of new caprica..
they save them for important targets as they are unreplazable or hard to produce (unlike ammo wich we see they have mounting facilities)

for teh raiders i think the same.. in the miniseries raiders used a lot of missiles and they aparently forgot how using them in the series?

[stavrosg]

By the way, Vipers can land vertically, which is the usual way, as we see Lee do it in the miniseries (as opposed to combat landings where all pilots try to land simultaneously just moments before the Battlestar jumps away)

In zero gravity, they can probably launch the same way*, but using launch tubes is probably quicker, and more spectacular =)


*I at least can't see why they cannot do it.

[ThPrime]

In zero gravity, they can probably launch the same way

Sure, launched that way last episode.

Looks like the visual effects team has physics modeling tied to those tiny RCS jet effects. The debris in minature orbit around the heavy raider was impressive too. Nice work!

[Sparrow]

Vipers have some short of VTOL capacity..
they habe been seen in planetary ground.. and their landing gears uses skys so they cant roll to takeoff speed..(not without a hell of sparks anyway)

You can see one in a ground runway in Adama's vintage Viper photo .. and in Razor when Lee is in the planet transfer station wich is in the ground you can see a mk2 Viper in the ground being pulled.. plus Apollo was waiting for his Viper ..

So im sure Vipers can take off vertically in 1G enviroments.. surelly just like Raptors did in the miniseries with the lower RCS

[Neakal]

With regards to Independence Day, I remember reading a huge list of inaccuracies in that movie both locational (they had moved Empire State Building to somewhere completely irrelevant to its RL location) and factual/physical (when Will Smith arrives at his "bombed out" airbase, the jets in the background are perfectly intact). One such error was with the canyon chase scene between Smith and the alien fighter whose physics were mentioned to be unrealistic. Smith's fighter should not have been able to do the moves it did. I think the list was in www.moviemistakes.com (http://www.moviemistakes.com/). Of course if you were being sarcastic I humbly back off :)

Also, keep in mind that Viper's were designed to be Air and Space superiority fighters whereas the jets we have today are air superiority. They wouldn't reach space let alone be usable there. I guess some level of compromise is unavoidable. Taking down Galactica, therefore, would be pretty hard unless we threw nuclear missles to orbit (which, conincidentally, is what I feel the series finale may involve). Even then, its iffy. Therefore it makes sense that Vipers are "jack of all trades but master of none". Much like 1st Cylon War Raiders which were fighters and trasports but limited in both respects.

Others have mentioned VTOL so I won't delve into that although think about it, youre being shot at by rocket salvos, raiders and all sort of other baddies. Isn't it simpler and safer to make a quick combat landing rather then land calmly in a standart VTOL manner? As we saw in Miniseries, in peace times they do have safe, VTOL-style landings.

[AnyP]

Well I think it ends with us offering a new home for all the colonials and then we lock them in a bunker in the arctic (officially for quarantine purposes) and then we steal all their technology. We nuke a cylon invasion fleet and we then discover that the mystery cylon is Osama Bin Laden and thats why we can never find him but he still seems alive - he just keeps downloading... and that the great cylon plan that is always referred to in the opening credits of every episode was to destroy America through manipulation of the Earthlings religious beliefs. We then launch a 'crusade' against terrorism in space and wipe out the cylons whilst secretly wiping out galactica as a threat to national security.
We then leave Earth with all the useful, and those who can pay, people to repopulate the colonies (which means the poor really do inherit the Earth....) and we create the Anglo-Sino alliance. There is a war in the new colonies and tyranical empire takes control creating another group of monsters who rebel against their creators and these new freaks are called called 'reevers'. Galactica series five picks this up following the adventures of a certain space captain Malcolm Reynolds and his crew of misfits and their battle against the alliance...

And so my work here is done...

Oh and we never hear about Vipers ever again.

[UnRep]

Red go faster stripes not winning you guys over then? Bah.

[Sparrow]

Red go faster stripes not winning you guys over then? Bah.

they win me..
they may not make you go faster as flames do but they cool anyway..

the thing i like less about the mk7 is the grey plain paint scheme.. sure is usefull in space (they could be black) but i like the mk2 paint scheme ..
im an old StarWars fan so i liked a lot the X-Wing paint scheme and lets renember that the Viper mk2 scheme comes from the TOS Viper (we should name it mk1) wich was a X-Wing rip-off

[Leroy Morte]

Flames painted on the mark twos and teeth like some WW2 bombers, grrrrrrrr.....lmao

[UnRep]

Pimp my mk 7 Viper :thumbsup:

[Sparrow]

Pimp my mk 7 Viper :thumbsup:

Done:

http://byyourcommand.net/photogallery/albums/Galactica/Viper_Mark_VII_2_scaled_600.jpg

:p

Oh.. and mk2 pimped too:

http://justcheckout.com/focusitems/pictures/20071129IMG_5305.JPG

Also back to topic you have to count that Vipers are built to be good all-arround fighters.. if you look in the battle of NewCaprica raiders are seeing generally running from the Vipers.. the Cylon Raider maybe is a bit better in space, but it lacks in atmosphere where the Viper does well

[Sgt Teta]

They cant be that bad.

The cylons were beaten in the first war.

And in the second the cylons feared the colonial fleet, with all its politics, budget slashing and burocracy, enough that after 50 years of stockpiling their forces, they still felt they couldnt defeat it head on, and had to use a back door in the CNP.

[genji2000]

Or else they preferred to gain victory by intellectual capacity rather than wasting the resources required to resurrect hundreds of Raiders.

Yeah, I think that was probably it.

[Sgt Teta]

Possably, possably, but that dosent seem inkeeping with the massive-raider-swarm tactics they employ. Or the kamikazi attacks in kobols last gleaming.

They seem to have little worry about losing hundreds of ships, raiders, even humanoid cylons really.

[genji2000]

Possably, possably, but that dosent seem inkeeping with the massive-raider-swarm tactics they employ. Or the kamikazi attacks in kobols last gleaming.

They seem to have little worry about losing hundreds of ships, raiders, even humanoid cylons really.

Against a force of one Battlestar and a few Vipers, maybe. Against a force of 120 Battlestars and many more Vipers?

[Sgt Teta]

Ahh, fair point.

My point is surely if the raiders so hugely outclassed the vipers, the cylons surely would have massively overpowered to Galactica+Pegasus in their first engagement, and slaughtered them.
We know that in the Pegasus' attack on the "comm relay" they were hugely outnumbered, yet their vipers won, DISPITE having their systems half erased to get around the virus.
Same again on "ressurection ship pt2" the attack on the ressurection ship, the vipers would have been slaughtered, yet agaist overwhelming numbers they allways prevail.

Vipers cant be that bad then, surely

[genji2000]

I think we're just going to have to accept that they are, like the Stormtroopers in Star Wars. I suppose you could argue that machines (and clones) lack that individual human response to battle situations.

[BSGfan-atic]

I think that Boomer's point in Season 1, after Starbuck came back to the fleet, is relevant here. She said something to the effect that you have to think of the raider as something like an animal, a pet. Something that was bred for fighting. Even with that background, or because of it, the humans are able to fight and win with inferior numbers. Even in a real world situation, we hear about individuals fighting off mountain lions, pit bulls, and sometimes even bears (depending on the type of bear). Despite the fact that the animals are pound-for-pound stronger than us, a human can out-think them and survive. This is probably the situation with the humans vis-a-vis the Cylons. There was one scene though, in the miniseries, at the Battle of Ragnar Anchorage, where a formation of 3 Vipers was wiped out by a similar force of Raiders. The Cylons put a Raider out in front of the Vipers as bait, then while the humans were fixated on what was in front of them, the Raiders came in from the side and smoked 'em.

[Sgt Teta]

Also, as we know, the raiders are allowed to learn, up to a point. But after that their "memories" are wiped.

Perhaps they have only the most very basic of tactics instinctively, and learn the rest, thus, when wiped they go back to being pretty bad tacticians. We've seen with Scar what can happen if you let a raider learn for a long time

[Sluggmeister]

again something to think about with the ammo capacity of the vipers... they bring with them 1600 rounds... 30 mm that is. now imagine you have a pen in your hand now take 3 more normal pens or pencils or just look at that episode epipahines i think it is when someones been tampering with the ammo. now imagine you have 1600 of those rounds put em in a box a line or a square if you will and look at the size of the vipers themselves.

its no small amount of ammo for a viper its actually HUGE. 1600 rounds... now roughly just laying them out in a row you would have line thats 48 metres. now they are most likely chain fed into the fireing mechanisms and they are most likely packed in a box or a drum like magazine still it would fill the entire fuselage with rounds which can well be true like the A-10 thunderbolt with its 1100-1600 round capacity... that gun is the size of a small car with its massive ammo drum. now if you want to whine at something whine at the fact that they cram 1600 30 mm rounds into a viper :P

as for the to little fire power. well maybe taking the cycling rate of the guns into account it doesnt sound like much. then consider this. first off as someone wisely pointed out they can most likely changed their rate of fire at will with thier higher tech. but more importantly even though you see them constantly spraying the raiders and they dont run out of ammo well thats the bang of the buck syndrome aka arnold in commando :P in any case 1600 rounds is enough by far.

ammo like that isnt fired like some machine or submachine gun its in short controlled bursts so you "walk" onto the target if you dont hit or wing it with the first burst and those bursts are but a gently tap on the fire control trigger and dont waste more then a handful rounds.

i still cant see how you can fit 1600 rounds inside a viper thats all i have to whine about even if they are caseless.

[Sgt Teta]

I cant see any way that the vipers could use "bullets" as we know them, with the case+powder and the "round" seperate. As you pointed out 1600 rounds take up a lot of room, and to store the cases afterwoulds (since we dont see them get ejected) would be just rediculous, so they much be caseless rounds.

[pagad]

The whole Vipers-versus-Raiders thing is an interesting parallel to the manned-vs-unmanned debate with regard to UAVs and such. BSGfan-atic raises a good point in that a machine that isn't quite sentient (i.e. most Raiders) can't match a seasoned pilot's grasp of tactics - arguably, an evolved organic being will be far superior to a programmed machine in this regard, which (sort of) explains Cylon tactics in general, as beyond sneak-attacks through sabotage (the CNP) their battle tactics seem to consist of mobbing the enemy with as many Raiders as possible. I'm of the opinion that Scar (for example) managed to adapt to human tactics through eventually becoming sentient through the experience of many resurrections (I'm thinking along the lines of Agrajag, Hitchhikers' fans :) )

[The Dirt]

Is it ever explained how Scar was able to find the fleet at that point in time? There was no basestar and a handful of other vipers as far as we know. Does this also mean that Scar died permanently when it was destroyed?

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Writer's conceit.

[pagad]

Is it ever explained how Scar was able to find the fleet at that point in time? There was no basestar and a handful of other vipers as far as we know. Does this also mean that Scar died permanently when it was destroyed?

Or if you wanted to fanwank it, the Cylons knew where the Colonials were but couldn't risk a full-scale operation against two battlestars in open space because of the destruction of the Resurrection Ship. I'd imagine they were also badly shaken because for once the Colonials had gone on the offensive and scored a tremendous victory (remember Adama's comments about why the Cylons might not come back after the operation to secure the tylium asteroid?). So they resorted to small raiding squadrons (ahem) of Raiders striking against the mining operations and preying on Viper patrols.

Yep, Scar's gone for good.

Scar's one of the better standalones in my opinion. I think it's a really good episode.

[Wouter]

Is it ever explained how Scar was able to find the fleet at that point in time? There was no basestar and a handful of other vipers as far as we know. Does this also mean that Scar died permanently when it was destroyed?
Raiders have excellent FTL drives on their own (considerably better than the FTL of a colonial battlestar, even), and often serve as scouts. They would be perfectly able of discovering the colonial fleet on their own (and a baseship may have been near anyway, preferring not to engage or show itself after the beating they got recently at the hands of Pegasus).

[pagad]

People seem to have forgotten that two basestars were soundly trashed just before Scar - in Res. Ship part II. Now, taking on both Pegasus and Galactica at once with any number of basestars would result in heavy skinjob casualties as well as Raiders. Which, of course, would be entirely unacceptable minus a Resurrection Ship.

[IceCadavers]

I believe the question was actually raised at one point in the episode, about why they only sent small raiding parties. Pretty sure they justified it the same way, anyway.


I think people are forgetting that the shots we see fired onscreen are not every shot fired, they're tracer rounds. As they have been pretty much since machine guns became common, highly visible rounds are inserted at intervals to assist with aiming, because with recoil and constantly changing direction, especially over greater distances, normal bullets are really hard to see. i imagine especially so in outer space. spent casings being ejected, probably especially so, though i imagine it's not practical in outer space for a few reasons. first and foremost, combustion requires oxygen, so any explosive-propellant weapons (which is most likely what type of weapon they use) need a sealed action to work in outer space. especially if the rounds are on a chain, it would possibly be easier just to feed back into the ammo storage and reuse spent casings in manufacturing more ammunition.

either way, 20 rounds/second is more realistic and more effective than 3-5. 1600 is definitely a lot to cram into a small space. not sure if the comparison to the a-10 is the best analogy though, it was built around that cannon, often described as a 'lead bathtub with wings'. i would like to point out that even with bubble canopies like on modern fighters, the head support of the pilot's chair obstructs most rear visibility anyway. nonetheless, "jack of all trades, master of none" is a good description, the viper fits what you would describe as a multi-role fighter such as the F-16 falcon, which was partly inspired by, and nicknamed for, the TOS Viper

[BlackTigh]

New Galactica series decided to carry on the Viper concept.. they envolved the mk1 a bit to make it a more modern mk2 and created the mk7 as a "today's version

Are you saying the "old" Vipers in the new show are a later model than the Vipers in the original show?

Is this why the canopy opens by sliding forward rather than opening upward?

Can you explain the different models in this photo for me please?

I think the one with orange markings (left, middle) is the original Viper.

http://www.alfredsmind.ca/terran/vipergroup.jpg

[pagad]

If you look very, very carefully, you see a TOS Viper in Galactica's museum.

So it is safe to assume that they are the Mk 1's :) That should answer your question.

[BlackTigh]

Thanks! But what marque is the machine at the top left in that photo? (the grey one)

And in which program has that machine been seen flying? TOS? 1980?

[pagad]

Could be from either the Richard Hatch or the DeSanto osBSG revival efforts, or possibly from the 2003 "in-betweenie" BSG video game.

EDIT: the purple-marked one is definitely from Richard Hatch's Second Coming trailer. The grey one is probably from DeSanto's continuation.

Also, I want those models!

[The Dirt]

It looks a lot like the Viper Mark IV from the defunct DeSanto BSG reboot.

http://www.colonialfleets.com/darrell/viper_comparison.jpg

[BlackTigh]

1. The Dirt, is there any such thing as a Viper Mk I? If so, what does it look like?

2. Why are there TWO Mk IIs in tha photo?

3. Is the #4 Mk II really a Mk I with the wrong caption written?

4. One last question: Who is DeSanto and what has he added to the BSG evolution? (Okay that's two more...)

[pagad]

Okay, Joe is better qualified for this but I'll do my best.

I'll get your Viper query out of the way first.

In osBSG (original series) there were no "marks" of Vipers, just the one design. The revised osBSG design was used as the "Mk II" for nuBSG, and I think the implication (from Galactica's museum) was that the "original" osBSG original was the nuBSG "Mk I" Viper. I'm not sure where the osBSG "Mk II" designation comes from, it's possible that I'm wrong (where's Aphrodite when you need her?). So in reply to your fourth question, I would say yes.

Now, Tom DeSanto.

There were two main osBSG revival efforts - Richard Hatch's The Second Coming and a second one being overseen by Tom DeSanto and Brian Singer. The Second Coming was never picked up by Universal and DeSanto's version was on the verge of being filmed - they had sets, props, everything - when 9/11 happened. Because of the disruption, Singer was forced to leave to work on X-Men 2 and without him Fox lost interest and abandoned the project. As a result - no continuation. Then Ronald Moore came along with his re-imagining which caused a lot of controversy amongst the osBSG fanbase who wanted a continuation of the original series, which is a whole different story.

I can hardly claim to know much about what happened - indeed, people like Joe know the story far better than I - but that's the information that I've gleaned regarding the stories of the various continuation attempts.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Singer left before the 9/11 stoppage, which slowed production, but didn't kill it completely. This was because of the already pre-existing commitment to X2. The thing that really killed it — the final nail in the coffin — was 9/11.

There were actually two viper-like craft in the Original Series: the Viper you see on screen, and the old "sixth millennium" fighter seen in "The Long Patrol". There was no such thing as a "Mark I" viper in TOS. The whole "Mark" system was for the Re-imagined Series.

There's also the "Starchaser" which Starbuck pilots. The Starchaser has the annoying C.O.R.A., which they thankfully got rid of and was quickly forgotten.

[BlackTigh]

I had forgotten all about CORA. Yeah that was pretty annoying alright...

So let me see if I have this right:

The Mk II above (#4) is really the original Viper from TOS. It is incorrectly labelled as a "Mk II" when it is really the Mk I Viper or more correctly, just the Viper.

The Mk VII (#1) is the current frontline Viper, being operated in the new series.

The Mk II (#2) is the "old" Viper in the new series, dragged out of the museum and re-introduced into service. This is not intended to be the same machine (with a makeover) as we saw in TOS; it is intended to be a later marque, which is also obsolete.

Is that right?

Has the new series, at any stage, shown an ORIGINAL Viper from TOS?




I think the implication (from Galactica's museum) was that the "original" osBSG original was the nuBSG "Mk I" Viper

Did we see a "Mk I" Viper in the new series??



The revised osBSG design was used as the "Mk II" for nuBSG

The "revised" design???


Sorry for the confusion. I appreciate the info, guys! I was 11yo when TOS was originally aired; it's amazing how much more detail you can pick up as an adult!

[pagad]

Haha, sorry. I think it'd be simpler if I just posted an image.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/Iron_Warrior/Vipertos.jpg

This is clearly an osBSG Viper as seen in Galactica's museum in the nuBSG miniseries. Since the model we most frequently see up until Pegasus' arrival is the Mk II (the revised design), we can assume that this was the Mk I, particularly after seeing all the old Cylons in Razor.

[BlackTigh]

Riiiight, right! Thanks!

So this "revised" version... it's revised by the new series producers to be an "older" model Viper, which gets put back into service?

So there were TWO older Viper models in the museum?

What happened when Pegasus arrived? What did they have? I obviously haven't paid enough attention. But then the cameras always zoom in and zoom out and jerk around like they're on speed whenever there's a space scene. Bluddy ruins it if you ask me...

Oh I get it, Pegasus had a full complement of new model Vipers?

[pagad]

Yes. The revised design I am referring to is the Mk II Viper, which is the closest direct legacy of the original series in the new (it's a more streamlined, modernised version of the original Viper). Remember, at the time of the fall of the Colonies the Mk II's carried by Galactica are themselves museum pieces.

Galactica had about thirty-forty Mk II Vipers and six-eight Mk VII Vipers when Pegasus arrived. Obviously, all of Pegasus' Vipers were Mk VIIs, and her total Viper complement seems to be far larger than Galactica's at the time the two battlestars rendezvoused. New Vipers created by Pegasus are also Mk VII's. So, the majority of the fleet's Vipers are now Mk VIIs.

Make sense?

[BlackTigh]

Galactica had about thirty-forty Mk II Vipers and six-eight Mk VII Vipers when Pegasus arrived.

Obviously, all of Pegasus' Vipers were Mk VIIs

New Vipers created by Pegasus......



Jeepers how'd you know all that???? I really have to pay a little more attention to what's going on.... (and a little less attention to Starbuck's fat arse!!) :lol:

[genji2000]

...Starbuck's fat arse!!

Lee again.

[pagad]

Jeepers how'd you know all that???? I really have to pay a little more attention to what's going on.... (and a little less attention to Starbuck's fat arse!!) :lol:

I leave the mad philosophical theorising to others better at it than I. If you want a nerdy question answered on the fleet's ships themselves, come to me! :thumbsup: