Do U Think F5 were "built"?

[1Nivek1]

This seems to be the main tangent to every other topic, often referred to as the "problem with Col. Tigh"....

RDM stated the F5 were "fundamentally different", but how fundamental "fundamentally" is.....?

Do you guys think they had to have been built by a creator in lab, etc? (Or whatever theory you subscribe to currently)

[urbanacid]

I don´t know they´ve set it up to go ant many possible directions so i´m confused as all hell. My girl got a theory for you though which is possible i think but I aint buyin so here goes : she says they F5 are nano that the 4 we see chief tigh etc are hunams possesed/operated by nanocyclons and that the fifth is the Gauis/six headjob. (shes nuts crazy and an engineer)

I myself don´t know and am not leaning in any direction at the mo. I see no differences between the s7 and the f5 , thought the strength thing might be a factor but then i rewatched the ep with ragnarok and yeah leoben sent adama flyin and he ripped off that piping no prob so its not strength that sets them apart.

[Neakal]

In all honesty, I don't see a huge problem with Tigh. The Final Five have been established to exist outside the mainstream Cylon Culture and knowledge. Furthermore, episodes like Rapture and Torn imply heavily that either a certain form of Cylon, or the Final Five existed long before the rest. The way Temple of Five functions, its connection to the Final Five, the fact that Simon in Torn says that the Humanoid Cylon genepool comes from the same source which is not the genes from Colonials as they had the immunity to the Virus for some 600 years all seem to point out that the FF could exist without making Tigh's memories a fake.

I remember someone speculating that the Significant Seven ressurect and the Final Five reincarnate across different lives although I am not sure how this can justify the Cylon abilities the FF have.

My personal belief is that the Final Five, much like the Significant Seven, were probably created/birthed/grown in a lab or sorts. This particular lab, however, has some kind of connection to the "All Along the Watchtower" as Anders and Tyrol describe it being like a childhood memory. I believe they heard the song there and it was imprinted to their subconscious in the process. The connection to All Along the Watchtower can imply that the lab was on Earth. This contradicts with the style of the song which was specifically intended to be Colonial-style. However, it does fit with the possibility that the Cylon DNA came a non-Colonial source.

Maybe the "Third Party" placed the Final Five into the Colonies prior/during the Cylon War. During this period, the Mechanical Cylons were trying (and failing) their own experiments with humans. Perhaps after their banishment, the "Third Party" contacted the Mechanical Cylons (Thus making the third party the "Original Programmers"), gave them the genetic samples that would become the Significant Seven and thaught them how to create the Significant Seven while making sure that various Final Five-related programming was put in place in order to make the S7 both susceptible to the F5(The raider reaction could be an example) and make them avoid researching the Final Five to the point they would not consciously (Caprica-Six' and Leoben's comments can imply they still had something on a subconscious level) realise they are Cylons if they faced one.

I know it is not a sustainable theory and its a very rough one but I believe the situation with the Final Five is somewhere along that line although I can't say how or why the Third Party has done such a thing though.

[Starstruck]

I have no clue, really.

Sometimes I think the "this has all happened before" line means that some form of Cylon existed before the Cylons that were built on Caprica gained sentience. I've seen theories that humans created Cylons on Earth or on Kobol, were almost wiped out by them back then, maybe even interbred so all the humans we see now are really hybrids; then forgot it all with time and rinse/repeat. It is so open right now. Dying to see what the writers will do with it.

[Jason1975]

Yes I believe that final 5 Cylons have been built. The question is who built them. :D

[crood]

Unless we completely throw out Cylon numbering, I don't think it's possible to completely separate the F5 from the S7. There has to be some reason the number seven is skipped amongst the S7.

[stavrosg]

Couldn't it be that there was a number 7 that was deeply flawed and the redesign being so radical that the creators felt that a different number should be used?
That would explain the skipped number.

[1Nivek1]

Neakal--

I don't understand how you're theory works without having some sort of Col. Tigh kidnap/replace w false memories?

[caprica_six]

Unless we completely throw out Cylon numbering, I don't think it's possible to completely separate the F5 from the S7. There has to be some reason the number seven is skipped amongst the S7.
The reason why the #7 was skipped and put into the F5 is the devine plan that "Transformation is the goal"- the Hybrid

"Something is pushing us to find our origins, our place in the universe" - Natalie

This is all part of the cycle of things. This time Cylons are human, the F5 I think have transformed themselves (this being over time, Leoben said this in Six of One when they were presenting the F5 stuff to Cavil) into human that they maybe were built on Earth and know where it is! They have everything to do with Earth.

Did you notice that Sharons model 8 is polarized like Boomer seems to be very smitten with Cavil, EWW I must say. Athena on Galactica/Demitris she is VERY loyal to her fellow humans.
It seems that this model is the balance and has a role to play coming up in some way she is on some level a link to the F5.

They still have to tell us whats with Hera? "the new generation of Gods children", she probably means that the S7 are trying to eveolve and procreate, Hera being proof. I think she is a symbol of what the cylons were created to do, become human help humanity get to Earth.

[Neakal]

Neakal--

I don't understand how you're theory works without having some sort of Col. Tigh kidnap/replace w false memories?

I meant that they were put there since childhood or even through artificial impregnation after being "grown". Therefore, I believe Tigh (and others) do not have false memories. They were simply (and somehow) placed there and allowed to live/grow up before the other humanoid Cylons. One could say Tigh was the first one to be placed since hes the oldest.

But than, as a counterpoint, were Cavils always old?

As I said, it is not the most sustainable theory. Im just brainstorming here :)

[Starstruck]

But than, as a counterpoint, were Cavils always old?



We don't know for sure, but I think so. I think so because all the Cavils and all of the other seven known models look just like one another. There are no age differences. You would think if they did age, at least one model would have a younger one or two walking around, because somebody died and got downloaded.

Also, the bodies the download into are pre-oldened. We've seen that. It seems the seven don't age, which is truly weird, considering that they are carbon structures.

[stavrosg]

Also, the bodies the download into are pre-oldened. We've seen that. It seems the seven don't age, which is truly weird, considering that they are carbon structures.

This can be easily explained: Aging happens because natural selection/evolution decided at some point that there is no point in trying to keep a certain body new/in good condition when recources are sparse and better used in reproduction and the raising of the offspring.
Cylons do not have such need for one, and if a certain body happens to take too much damage, they can simply download to a new one anyway.

[crood]

All Cavils are certainly that old. He stated flat out that all Cylons of a certain model are identical, including the creepy comment about Number Eight's breasts.

[1Nivek1]

So, those of you who think Cylon's were "built", believe they were made before the first Cylon War (Tigh ~50-60 yo)? And, the S7 might have been there (but not revealed), and afterwards the first hybrid was designed (occured during 1st Cylon War per Adama's take).

[Neakal]

So, those of you who think Cylon's were "built", believe they were made before the first Cylon War (Tigh ~50-60 yo)? And, the S7 might have been there (but not revealed), and afterwards the first hybrid was designed (occured during 1st Cylon War per Adama's take).

I think the coming of S7 happened at least after the First Hybrid, when the Cylon experiments were still not at the point they wanted. As according to my theory, the Old Cylons would not have needed a "third party" help until they realised the project was not going where they wanted (making Cylons into organic beings).

The rest of the Hybrids, I am not sure.

Hybrids are mentioned to be failed experiments and Sharon mentions that they were the first attempts to make Cylons organic beings and that the project was abandoned with Hybrids put to Basestars. What we don't know is the chronology of this event. Did the S7 who became activated simply found the Basestars and their Hybrids ready for use (with the knowledge of the Hybrid projects failure imprinted to them) or was it after they were activated they noted that they found about the Hybrids and figured they could have other uses?

Surely it doesn't make sense the S7 continued the experiment on humans when they have already achieved the goal of becoming organic beings. The only reason I can think of which the S7 would have continued producing Hybrids is to replace lost Hybrids.

I think I am increasingly muddling myself here :frown-ani:

[ThPrime]

There's several reasons to believe the final four were not fundamentally different Cylons until the fleet approached the Ionian nebula. Prior to this metamysticalmagical event they were normal Colonial humans same as anyone else.

Buh buh buh ThP! How can Tory suddenly have Cylon Super Strength? Wouldn't she have to be "built" that way? Good question. Well, however you look at it, her Cylon-ness was perfectly suppressed. No different than the fact that Centurions never recognized Anders as a Cylon, until the Ionian nebula. No humanoid Cylon senses the presence of the final five, until the Ionian nebula. Previously, at least some of the four had to have passed Baltar's Cylon detector (which actually works.) By every measure, their nature was hidden from all in every way.

Sounds strange, and I'd be the first to admit this would prove a difficult task to explain in a naturalistic way without the show sliding into a supernatural quagmire. But it is a simple explanation that handily solves the otherwise many glaring continuity issues. Another appealing aspect, the final Cylon could become absolutely anybody. They would also enjoy a free continuity ride.

[1Nivek1]

To combine Neakal & ThPrime here....

you guys definately believe in a "third party" separate from the design of the S7? In addition, you guys seem to both imply an activation (not realization). Could this be genetic manipulation possibly (a la Doom w/ 24th chromosome)?

That's an interesting idea....that the S7 were cylons designed to be humans, and the F5 were humans manipulated to be cylons, perhaps?

Also, who are the candidates for the "third party"? 1st hybrid?

[Neakal]

Yea its pretty much how it is more or less. The S7 made to be humans and the F5 made to be Cylons is an interesting idea. Haven't considered that thought though not sure what the implications would be. It means the S7 will become closer to humanity while the F5 become distanced?

As for the Third Party, I believe they are people from Earth or somehow fundamentally connected to Earth. I think Head-Six is connected to the third party and they may also have a link to either the Cylon God(The one whose name can not be spoken/The Rebellious Lord of Kobol) or the Colonial Gods although I'm leaning to the former.

I doubt the first Hybrid is part of the third party. Judging from the presence of old (and scrapped) Cylons and their continuation of a "failed" experiment, I have a feeling he split away from the mainstream Cylons after noticing the third party influences. Im purely speculating here though.

[crood]

There's several reasons to believe the final four were not fundamentally different Cylons until the fleet approached the Ionian nebula. Prior to this metamysticalmagical event they were normal Colonial humans same as anyone else.

Buh buh buh ThP! How can Tory suddenly have Cylon Super Strength? Wouldn't she have to be "built" that way? Good question. Well, however you look at it, her Cylon-ness was perfectly suppressed. No different than the fact that Centurions never recognized Anders as a Cylon, until the Ionian nebula. No humanoid Cylon senses the presence of the final five, until the Ionian nebula. Previously, at least some of the four had to have passed Baltar's Cylon detector (which actually works.) By every measure, their nature was hidden from all in every way.

Sounds strange, and I'd be the first to admit this would prove a difficult task to explain in a naturalistic way without the show sliding into a supernatural quagmire. But it is a simple explanation that handily solves the otherwise many glaring continuity issues. Another appealing aspect, the final Cylon could become absolutely anybody. They would also enjoy a free continuity ride.

Anders was detected by a Raider, not a Centurian. Raiders were allowed some measure of intelligence and self determiniation (e.g. Scar). The Centurians had all of that supressed. It's quite possible that one of Natalie's Centurians could now detect one of the F5, whereas Cavil's still can't. The purpose of lobotomizing the Raiders is to make the follow orders like the Centurians.

[redwards95]

My tentative theory is that the final 5 are ancient. They literally were the 5 priests that D'annah saw in the Temple of Five and that are are part of the colonials' history and religion. Perhaps they were involved in the creation of the centurions and the 7. Of course this would still mean they were built but it would have been thousands of years ago on Kobol.

[ThPrime]

Anders was detected by a Raider, not a Centurian. Raiders were allowed some measure of intelligence and self determiniation (e.g. Scar). The Centurians had all of that supressed. It's quite possible that one of Natalie's Centurians could now detect one of the F5, whereas Cavil's still can't. The purpose of lobotomizing the Raiders is to make the follow orders like the Centurians.

In Ander's case I had to use an example of a Centurion because he's had countless encounters with them. I think that was his first and only face off with a Raider in the nebula.

I don't know if Centurions with or without the inhibitor can recognize the awakened final four. Possibly they can, because that would screw up Cavil's plans again and even foil Natalie from using force as a means to retrieve them.

"Centurions can't distinguish her (Sharon) from the other humanoid models. Did you know that? They were deliberately programmed that way. The Cylons didn't want them becoming self-aware, suddenly resisting orders. They didn't want their own robotic rebellion on their hands. You can appreciate the irony." - Adama, Precipice

Cavil accuses Natalie of not using reason, then proceeds to make a strange statement, "(the final five) are anywhere but with the humans." Why is he so confident of this? Why should that be an impossibility? As if he knows they are safely stored in the temple of five/space between life and death/opera house and cannot imagine circumstances where they could get out.

[1Nivek1]

I don't know if Centurions with or without the inhibitor can recognize the awakened final four. Possibly they can, because that would screw up Cavil's plans again and even foil Natalie from using force as a means to retrieve them.

This is a good point put forward by crood....This could be the impetus for the general-civil-war-cluster-f*ck that RDM is looking for :thumbsup:


Cavil accuses Natalie of not using reason, then proceeds to make a strange statement, "(the final five) are anywhere but with the humans." Why is he so confident of this? Why should that be an impossibility?


Well, that could tie into the idea of the exiled 1st hybrid I have here:
http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1002
...that Cavil is the propagandist who keeps trying to drive it home....


My tentative theory is that the final 5 are ancient.


How ancient? ...Like shouldn't have slept with her ancient ?!:D


They literally were the 5 priests that D'annah saw in the Temple of Five and that are are part of the colonials' history and religion.

I must confess, that I started this thread to play devil's advocate with myself. I agree. I believe, so far, that they are somehow genetic reincarnations of the Lords of Kobol.....

Doesn't mean however, that some "third party" forced it, or cloned it, or beamed it down from the Umbrella Corp.'s Laboratory...

Personally, though, I think I would be happier if they were "built" in the end. So I'm sorta in between what I feel will be a logical story, and what would be a fun story. Good posts by everyone...

[crood]

In Ander's case I had to use an example of a Centurion because he's had countless encounters with them. I think that was his first and only face off with a Raider in the nebula.

I don't know if Centurions with or without the inhibitor can recognize the awakened final four. Possibly they can, because that would screw up Cavil's plans again and even foil Natalie from using force as a means to retrieve them.

"Centurions can't distinguish her (Sharon) from the other humanoid models. Did you know that? They were deliberately programmed that way. The Cylons didn't want them becoming self-aware, suddenly resisting orders. They didn't want their own robotic rebellion on their hands. You can appreciate the irony." - Adama, Precipice

Cavil accuses Natalie of not using reason, then proceeds to make a strange statement, "(the final five) are anywhere but with the humans." Why is he so confident of this? Why should that be an impossibility? As if he knows they are safely stored in the temple of five/space between life and death/opera house and cannot imagine circumstances where they could get out.

I don't think Cavil has any information. His thing is denial. He denies anything that deviates from his world view. He doesn't like change. He doesn't believe the F5 are among humans because it doesn't fit the picture of things.

If the Cylons are truly based upon human personalities, Cavil is the old man who refuses to learn how to program his VCR.