Anyone else think it's too easy for Baltar to be a cylon??

[talon267]

I've been reading some speculation threads about who the final cylon is and I noticed a lot of people are saying it's Baltar. Does anyone else feel like it would be too easy for him to be the final cylon??? I think the thing that makes Baltar an extremely interesting character is that he unwillingly aids the cylons. If he is in fact one of them then he loses the tragic aspect of the character. The great aspect of Gaius Baltar is that he is a human who aided in the destruction of the twelve colonies but didn't so it on purpose, if he's a cylon then that goes away. I just feel like it would be a terrible waste of character development to make him the final cylon... unless this whole cult thing turns into something else.

[redwards95]

Baltar probably fits the hybrid from Razor's prophecies better than anybody else, but I agree with you that it would be too easy for him to turn out to be the final cylon. Plus we already had some episodes where he thought he was a cylon but ultimately after the Temple of Five he had a vision that seemed to confirm he was a human. To now come back and have him be a cylon after all would be lame. Still he has to be considered one of the top candidates.

[ShadowEnigma]

I don't think he will be the last Cylon. His story has tied him in with humanity in so many different ways that I think he shouldn't be.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Baltar's character is better off human, because then it'd be easy to explain away Baltar's betrayal of the Twelve Colonies and other frakkeries as "oh, he did that because he is a Cylon! Ha !Ha!"

[timbo]

I've been reading some speculation threads about who the final cylon is and I noticed a lot of people are saying it's Baltar. Does anyone else feel like it would be too easy for him to be the final cylon??? I think the thing that makes Baltar an extremely interesting character is that he unwillingly aids the cylons. If he is in fact one of them then he loses the tragic aspect of the character. The great aspect of Gaius Baltar is that he is a human who aided in the destruction of the twelve colonies but didn't so it on purpose, if he's a cylon then that goes away. I just feel like it would be a terrible waste of character development to make him the final cylon... unless this whole cult thing turns into something else.


I think you have hit the nail on the head. He has been a reluctant participant in everything that has happened to him. I haven´t heard many people comment on this, but when they did the lottery for who would taken off Caprica, he didn´t look for a second like he was going to take that blind lady´s winning number. He is not innately bad, he is / was weak etc., but totally human. He did not ask for the sect, it was a last resort with all the hostility against him. I personally find his gradual spiritual awakening totally convincing, and his praying scene before the verdict in the trial was brilliant. Angry, then negotiating, begging, then feigning indifference, before finally putting himself in god´s hands. I think he has been put through the wringer and mangled. Now we are witnessing his reconstruction , which will involve him having finally to keep his promise to do gods will and I imagine this will mean being the leader when the president dies.

Beware Baltar Bashers - I think his journey is a template for all of us.

[CylonCarpetMuncher]

Anyone want comment on Baltar being able to project in here?!?!?

[ShadowEnigma]

Anyone want comment on Baltar being able to project in here?!?!?

I don't understand your post.

[Joe Beaudoin Jr.]

Anyone want comment on Baltar being able to project in here?!?!?

Well, sure... In "Embrace Verbosity", Caprica Six made the comment to Saul Tigh that the Cylon mind is based off the human mind. So... "projecting" may not be exclusive to the Cylons as was previously believed. After all, it is equated to daydreaming... maybe it's just more evolved than that?

The human mind does have the ability to fool itself. After all, projection might be a controlled form of schizophrenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia).

I always believed that Baltar was more of a mental nutcase than anything else. Particularly as someone who has "made a sport of mendacity and deception", as Caprica Six herself has said.

[ShadowEnigma]

Ohh, the head Baltar and head six. Head six could be Baltar's mind trying to compensate for the fact he helped the Cylons commit mass genocide. By having head Six telling him he is doing god's plan and such, it is reassuring him that what he did was alright. Now why it is always creepily right, I dunno. It's all happened before, and all will happen again? Fate?

[1Nivek1]

I always thought head-six was just a clever way for the viewer to see Baltar's "inner" thoughts without having the awkwardness of a narrated voice-over. It also didn't hurt to have 6 doing it in a skimpy red dress that was held together by a bobby-pin either:D

The head-Baltar thing though, I think was just a bit of comedy, and what looked like pure fun for Callis.

I really don't think there will ever be a reveal (a chip inside the head), to these two things.

[JohnMatZ]

I think Baltar is the BRIDGE. His character although played with wit, charm, craziness etc by James Callis wasn't originally concieved as he has evolved. It took the Brilliance of Callis to make him the messiah/murderer that he has become.

I think we will see Baltar as being the Key to the whole reaveal of the 5th. He isn't the fifth but I wouldn't be surprised that the original creator wasn't Baltar's clone. The 13th Lord of Kobol actually guiding everything would explain alot of the strange things that happen.

[timbo]

I think Baltar is the BRIDGE. His character although played with wit, charm, craziness etc by James Callis wasn't originally concieved as he has evolved. It took the Brilliance of Callis to make him the messiah/murderer that he has become.

I think we will see Baltar as being the Key to the whole reaveal of the 5th. He isn't the fifth but I wouldn't be surprised that the original creator wasn't Baltar's clone. The 13th Lord of Kobol actually guiding everything would explain alot of the strange things that happen.

This is good. Maybe this Baltar is the clone of the old Baltar, an evil genius who has masterminded everything. Maybe the final confrontation will be between some form of the original Baltar and the new redeemed Baltar, who finally defeats the darkness that was originally in both of them. We have been talking about this in the last few days, and it would tie in with the idea of the individual overcoming himself to break his and maybe the bigger cycles.

[genji2000]

This is good. Maybe this Baltar is the clone of the old Baltar, an evil genius who has masterminded everything. Maybe the final confrontation will be between some form of the original Baltar and the new redeemed Baltar, who finally defeats the darkness that was originally in both of them. We have been talking about this in the last few days, and it would tie in with the idea of the individual overcoming himself to break his and maybe the bigger cycles.

'We' being you and me. I don't think anyone else went within a hundred yards of that thread.

[Proxenus]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. He has been a reluctant participant in everything that has happened to him. I haven´t heard many people comment on this, but when they did the lottery for who would taken off Caprica, he didn´t look for a second like he was going to take that blind lady´s winning number. He is not innately bad, he is / was weak etc., but totally human. He did not ask for the sect, it was a last resort with all the hostility against him. I personally find his gradual spiritual awakening totally convincing, and his praying scene before the verdict in the trial was brilliant. Angry, then negotiating, begging, then feigning indifference, before finally putting himself in god´s hands. I think he has been put through the wringer and mangled. Now we are witnessing his reconstruction , which will involve him having finally to keep his promise to do gods will and I imagine this will mean being the leader when the president dies.

Beware Baltar Bashers - I think his journey is a template for all of us.

I'll take that challenge. Gauis Baltar is a villain of the worst sort. He's the kind that is willing to sell out for his own personal benefit.

Let's start out with the beginning. He sold all of humanity out so he could get laid for two years. While I agree that he did not "know" that his girl friend was a Cylon, he was still willing to compromise the entire Colonial Defense Network for his own pleasure. When he discovered it was the Cylons (rather than just about anyone else), his first thought was how it affected him. Note that he did not even bother to call or contact anyone to disable his programs.

From that point on, nearly every decision he made was for his personal benefit. I agree that on occasion, he did things that appear to be altruistic (I think the "prayer" to save the kid was the only one I can remember), but his decisions that were purely selfish far outweighed them.

One of the excuses for Baltar's decisions is that anyone of us would have done the same thing. I disagree. In fact, you have a person in the show who faced similar circumstances and still stood with humanity. Tom Zarek refused to cooperate with the Cylons on New Caprica and was imprisoned for his efforts.

In the real world, there are many people that are faced with similar decisions that Baltar faced. Hundred of people were "tempted" by enemy agents to reveal secrets of the United States. Few took those temptations.

In the end, Baltar is a traitor and should be despised for his weakness.

[stavrosg]

Yes, it would be too easy for Baltar to be a cylon. He is just the wrong person at the wrong place in the wrong time.

[stavrosg]

Let's start out with the beginning. He sold all of humanity out so he could get laid for two years. While I agree that he did not "know" that his girl friend was a Cylon, he was still willing to compromise the entire Colonial Defense Network for his own pleasure. When he discovered it was the Cylons (rather than just about anyone else), his first thought was how it affected him. Note that he did not even bother to call or contact anyone to disable his programs.
Never mind that he was himself informed of that fact just as the first bombs were falling so he couldn't really do anything anyway?
From that point on, nearly every decision he made was for his personal benefit. I agree that on occasion, he did things that appear to be altruistic (I think the "prayer" to save the kid was the only one I can remember), but his decisions that were purely selfish far outweighed them.
What was he supposed to do? Tell everyone that his girlfriend is a cylon anf he gave her the keys for the program which in turn allowed her to place the backdoors? He'd be instantly airlocked.

One of the excuses for Baltar's decisions is that anyone of us would have done the same thing. I disagree. In fact, you have a person in the show who faced similar circumstances and still stood with humanity. Tom Zarek refused to cooperate with the Cylons on New Caprica and was imprisoned for his efforts.
Granted, the decision not to report the cylons in the fleet after the fact that they have human form was irresponsible and selfish (and with disastrous results) but that's one action he willingly took. The others were more or less forced upon hin, and his instict of self-preservation*
Add to that and giving the nuke to Gina. But that was merely a plot device, to make sure we didn't stay in New Caprica indefinetly.

In the real world, there are many people that are faced with similar decisions that Baltar faced. Hundred of people were "tempted" by enemy agents to reveal secrets of the United States. Few took those temptations.

Yes, but they mostly knew they would be collaborating with the enemy. Baltar didn't. And that's a very significant difference.

By the way, somenone *not* having a strong sense of self-preservation is a strong evolutionary deficit, and so weeded out by natural selection pretty quickly. So we can say that Baltar is acting in line with human nature, in a way.

[timbo]

I am with Stavros completely. Despising Baltar for his weakness is not in the spirit of the show. He is not a traditional villain. He is complicated, human, sometimes weak and sometimes selfish, but he has never shown any real spite or viciousness like a lot of the other characters.
I find his growing willingness to face what he has done totally convincing. If I can forgive the unforgiveable in others, maybe I can do the same for myself. This show is different and sometimes it calls for our reactions to characters and story to be different.

[LSOP]

I am with Stavros completely. Despising Baltar for his weakness is not in the spirit of the show. He is not a traditional villain. He is complicated, human, sometimes weak and sometimes selfish, but he has never shown any real spite or viciousness like a lot of the other characters.
I find his growing willingness to face what he has done totally convincing. If I can forgive the unforgiveable in others, maybe I can do the same for myself. This show is different and sometimes it calls for our reactions to characters and story to be different.

I'm kind of in between. I think you are too easy on Gaius, Timbo. I agree with Proxenus in that he has does heinous acts all for selfishness, his own pleasure, and self-preservation. In as much as self-preservation at all costs is part of human nature, then I think that is a part of us that we should try to rise above and leave behind as we progress toward the "good". He has shown spite and viciousness toward Roslin and Adama, but in general he doesn't have particularly ill will toward anyone, human or cylon. But that takes back seat to his own desires. He is willing to let others die so that he will live. He has a history of valuing no life more than his own. However I will give anyone an opportunity to change. I will despise a person's acts, but not the person. People can change. And it seems that Gaius is changing. He is now looking beyond himself, to the needs of others, and to the plan of God. He is making a journey, like we all are. He will probably fall again along the way. Maybe he will fall completely back into his own ways. He is still rather full of himself at times, and that can really be a stumbling block to cultivating other virtues.

I like his character alot. He had done some very very bad things, things most of us, even the more selfish ones of us, would not do. But I'll forgive him if he wants to change his life now for the better.

But if they make him a cylon, I'll be VERY disappointed. It would ruin the whole character for me. Baltar is a symbol for the journey of all the humans into becoming a people worth saving. Being cylon would relegate all his choices to programming. The writers won't do it to him. I'm sure of it.

[ranvir]

I'm with LSOP. Baltar is certainly more complicated than the traditional villain, but despite his lack of inherent malevolence, he has shown himself time and time again to be weak, petty, and willing to sacrifice others for his own benefit. And while self-preservation is indeed evolutionarily advantageous, that doesn't make it right. Genetic diseases are evolutionarily disadvantageous, but does that make those who suffer from them any less human? Obviously you’re not implying that… My point is merely that human nature is something to be transcended (and this happens to be one of the themes of the show) and that we should not make excuses for a person in the wrong based on some evolutionary story... The question is, as Adama put it, as a species, are we worth saving? The answer seems to be yes, but only if we progress past our natural dispositions (and thus break the cycle of "everything that has happened before will happen again").

I like to think that Baltar is changing. I am, however, skeptical… Until he makes a sacrifice for another (such as his life for another) I won’t completely buy into his redemption story. So far it seems to me that he regrets his less than ideal actions and is using his religion to forgive himself. This makes him feel better about himself and allows him to live relatively untroubled by guilt. That said, I believe he wants to change, but I am not sure if he is capable of such a feat (I question whether he is strong enough). Only time will tell if Baltar’s transformation is genuine, but I hope it is.

Side note: I’m actually very much against Baltar’s religious message. I’m not sure how others feel about this… Everyone is perfect? Give me a break. The whole reason he started changing (I hope) was because he realized he was far from perfect. I get a message like “God loves everyone,” but “God made everyone perfect” is a silly and dangerous idea. The two are far from equivalent.

[LSOP]

I haven´t heard many people comment on this, but when they did the lottery for who would taken off Caprica, he didn´t look for a second like he was going to take that blind lady´s winning number.

I disagree, Timbo. I have watched that scene a few times now, and I think that he definitely entertains the tempation to switch tickets with the blind lady. When he gets called on by Helo, he acts like he's been caught, and says, "Yeah, I haven't done anything!" He is probably trying to deny that he is to blame for the cylon attack currently under way, but I think also he is half-thinking he is getting caught trying to take the winning ticket from the lady, so he tries to prove he's not by announcing that she has the winning ticket, almost as if to get them off his case, so they won't find out about his bigger sins. To me, all the subtle body language/facial expressions of Gaius are telling me that's what's going on in his mind, but maybe that's just me. I think that we are supposed to feel that if Helo hadn't called Gaius's name right then, and Gaius thought no one else would see him do it, then he would have switched tickets with that lady, and left her to die on Caprica.

[LSOP]

Side note: I’m actually very much against Baltar’s religious message. I’m not sure how others feel about this… Everyone is perfect? Give me a break. The whole reason he started changing (I hope) was because he realized he was far from perfect. I get a message like “God loves everyone,” but “God made everyone perfect” is a silly and dangerous idea. The two are far from equivalent.

I basically agree with you on this too, ranvir. I also feel Baltar's religion, (or maybe it is just the real Cylon religion, I'm not sure) is flawed, the way he interprets the "perfection" thing, as a way to get rid of guilt. I'm fine with "God loves you", and "God made you perfect", but only in the sense that god gave you a body and a soul with free will that was all good in the beginning. But we take that perfect gift and screw it up with our choices all through life. To say that after all those bad choices that we are still all perfect is where I have a problem with Baltar's religion. He basically thinks that the bad things he's done were supposed to happen, and so he doesn't need to feel guilty about them, because god loves him and he is perfect. This view on life wouldn't cause someone to change their ways, because whatever they choose, it's okay, because they are perfect. As you say, Baltar does seem to have this idea that he wants to be a better person, now that he is guilt-free form his past. However, there doesn't seem to be a notion of real forgivemess in Baltar's religion. It just says, "The past is the past. Let go of your guilt. You are perfect. You are loved." This is flawed from a human psychological point of view, as well as a religious one.

[timbo]

I really like the last half a dozen posts in this thread. There is Proxenus, who is justifiably disbelieving of Baltar´s redemption, I, who am probably too easily convinced, and then Ranvir and LSOP who are in the middle and probably represent the important, not sure, willing to forgive but with reservations majority. His new ideas do seem flawed, but he is going in the right direction it seems. All the spiritual teachings we have teach us that we will be judged as we judge others, and this seems the best starting point to me. I can imagine myself doing everything that he has done given the right / wrong circumstances.

[genji2000]

Baltar's religion reminds me of a darker version of Brian's "consider the lily". All of a sudden he has people listening to him, so he'd better make stuff up.

[Xenon242]

Baltar's character is such that I really doubt there's any sort of shred of conscience. He's opportunistic and is horribly weak in the sense he can be manipulated. It's simple: you show him your boobs, and he'll do whatever you like.

That having been noted, he doesn't actually mind it, I don't think. He knows he's getting something out of whatever arrangement he's being roped into. He sees things in the very short term, and when things go to Hell, he can only think of his own well-being; see:

- Cylon attack on the Colonies
- The New Caprica incident
- His trial
- Even being the head this cult of his

What it comes down to is that he'll betray both human and Cylon for whoever manipulates him the best, and when there's personal gain to be had.

It makes him an interesting character to follow (or did, anyway, before this whole business of his religion), but it really takes him out of any sort of final Cylon contention. As such, I also believe Baltar is beyond redemption.

My 0,02 Eur.

[LSOP]

I also believe Baltar is beyond redemption.


Beyond redemption period? Ouch. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

[Xenon242]

Beyond redemption period? Ouch. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

He's a fictional character, not a real person. :)

[JohnMatZ]

He's a fictional character, not a real person. :)


RDM is all about redemption. I don't think in the creator of the show's mind that Baltar is beyond redemption.

In fact as one of the main character's. him being possibly the "chosen one" show's that their may be redemption for Gaius.

[timbo]

- Cylon attack on the Colonies
- The New Caprica incident
- His trial
- Even being the head this cult of his

What it comes down to is that he'll betray both human and Cylon for whoever manipulates him the best, and when there's personal gain to be had.

As such, I also believe Baltar is beyond redemption.

There have also been examples of compassion from him. Like most people - men anyway - he needs a dramatic situation staring him inthe face, to draw a compassionate reaction from him. For example;

The boy
killing the mad crashdown to protect Cally
his reaction to the abused Geena, which I am sure was genuine
His moment when he took the chiefs hand, which I am sure was also genuine.

I also think the main idea behind him is redemption is possible for those seemingly beyond redemption.

[Proxenus]

Never mind that he was himself informed of that fact just as the first bombs were falling so he couldn't really do anything anyway?

Who knows what he could have done? The fact is that he did not even attempt to do anything. His first thought was to call his attorney to get him out of trouble. Perhaps he could have called the Colonial Ministry of Defense and told them to stop using his program? We don't know, but we do know he did nothing except concern himself with his personal well being.

What was he supposed to do? Tell everyone that his girlfriend is a cylon anf he gave her the keys for the program which in turn allowed her to place the backdoors? He'd be instantly airlocked.

We don't know what would have happened (at the time, the "Jammer Treatment" seemed reserved for Cylons), but he's supposed to be the smartest man in the Colonies, so certain exceptions would have been made. Would the rest of the fleet trust him less? Undoubtedly, but he could have redeemed himself from that.

Granted, the decision not to report the cylons in the fleet after the fact that they have human form was irresponsible and selfish (and with disastrous results) but that's one action he willingly took. The others were more or less forced upon hin, and his instict of self-preservation*
Add to that and giving the nuke to Gina. But that was merely a plot device, to make sure we didn't stay in New Caprica indefinetly.

Plot device or no, they are pretty consistent with his character. Baltar watches out for himself before anything else, even the preservation of his own species. And, actually, he wasn't "forced" to do anything. On New Caprica, for example, he could have resigned his position. He did not.

Yes, but they mostly knew they would be collaborating with the enemy. Baltar didn't. And that's a very significant difference.

Actually, most do not know they were collaberating with the enemy. While some of the larger espionage cases involve willful betrayal, the vast majority involve situations very similar to what happened to Baltar. Some person meets a hot chick or guy (who happens to be a spy) and strikes up a relationship. The spy eventually weedles information or access from the mark. As a former member of the US Intelligence community, I was constantly warned to be on the look out for this. And the vast majority of people know they are not supposed to give classified information to their squeeze and don't do it.


By the way, somenone *not* having a strong sense of self-preservation is a strong evolutionary deficit, and so weeded out by natural selection pretty quickly. So we can say that Baltar is acting in line with human nature, in a way.

That's debatable. Most species (including mankind) have a strong urge to preserve the species. Parents will defend their children to the death. Herds will work together to save a calf from lions.

Baltar does not appear to have any urge to preserve his species, which could be seen as quite out of line with human nature.

[Proxenus]

I am with Stavros completely. Despising Baltar for his weakness is not in the spirit of the show. He is not a traditional villain. He is complicated, human, sometimes weak and sometimes selfish, but he has never shown any real spite or viciousness like a lot of the other characters.
I find his growing willingness to face what he has done totally convincing. If I can forgive the unforgiveable in others, maybe I can do the same for myself. This show is different and sometimes it calls for our reactions to characters and story to be different.

He is not the traditional villain like the original Baltar was. He may not really be a villain per se. But, he's also not a person that should be considered a symbol for humanity or a person who is "interesting." He's shallow and self-serving. His statement in Revelations, "I really love living," encapsulates him. He will do anything, betray anyone, to continue living.

On a separate note, it is interesting to observe the various views. On the one side, you have myself, who is very much the law and order type. I have very little mercy or patience for people like Baltar. I'm also very skeptical of any kind of redemption.

On the other side, you have timbo, who is very compassionate and merciful. Who is much more willing to see the good in Baltar and wants to believe he is being redeemed.

[genji2000]

Maybe we should vote on it.

Everything Proxenus says is true about Baltar imo, but the point is as timbo calls it. Baltar confessed his deepest, gravest sin to the woman who has most cause to hate him and the best opportunity to ensure his demise. The fact that she didn't speaks volumes for her character, but also for his. On top of that he volunteered to talk D'Anna down from the precipice and succeeded.

It may be temporary and he may face one final challenge and fail - this remains to be seen - but on current evidence I'd have to agree that he is an example of the worst sinner being able to find redemption, and that makes him very "interesting" in the context of the show: what does it mean to be human? Whether it is the one true god that has redeemed him will (I hope) be left up to the viewers' interpretation.

[dmbfan]

I wonder if they aren't setting Baltar up to be the "dying leader". The prophecy doesn't say that the leader has to be dying for the entire migration, just that the dying leader would not see the promised land.

[genji2000]

I wonder if they aren't setting Baltar up to be the "dying leader". The prophecy doesn't say that the leader has to be dying for the entire migration, just that the dying leader would not see the promised land.

Baltar doesn't have a wasting disease. He has a wasting temperament, but not disease.

Welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around and get involved during season downtime.

What do you think the promised land is?

[dmbfan]

Thanks for the welcome. I've only watched the show recently. I've watched it all on dvd and then got caught up on season 4. My two oldest sons are watching too and we have great discussions about the show.

I plan to watch it all again from the beginning...slower this time.

I don't know what to think about the promised land, but apparently it's not earth.

I don't recall hearing that the dying leader has to have a wasting disease. I'll have to watch for that. I was thinking that having Baltar as the dying leader (since he clearly is a leader now) would allow them keep Roslyn alive. Just a thought.

I can see by the posts here that many of you have certainly given this show more thought than I have (being new and all) but it certainly sticks with you after the viewing experience and is very thought provoking.

[Xenon242]

On a separate note, it is interesting to observe the various views. On the one side, you have myself, who is very much the law and order type. I have very little mercy or patience for people like Baltar. I'm also very skeptical of any kind of redemption.

On the other side, you have timbo, who is very compassionate and merciful. Who is much more willing to see the good in Baltar and wants to believe he is being redeemed.

I'm going to suggest it's pretty much how his character was intended to be. Gaius Baltar isn't one of those characters you can feel apathetic about. He pretty much inspires diametrically opposed opinions.

[genji2000]

Thanks for the welcome. I've only watched the show recently. I've watched it all on dvd and then got caught up on season 4. My two oldest sons are watching too and we have great discussions about the show.

I plan to watch it all again from the beginning...slower this time.

I don't know what to think about the promised land, but apparently it's not earth.

I don't recall hearing that the dying leader has to have a wasting disease. I'll have to watch for that. I was thinking that having Baltar as the dying leader (since he clearly is a leader now) would allow them keep Roslyn alive. Just a thought.

I can see by the posts here that many of you have certainly given this show more thought than I have (being new and all) but it certainly sticks with you after the viewing experience and is very thought provoking.

The main quote is:
"She also wrote that the new leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land."

You can find it here: http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Sacred_Scrolls

Mostly people riff off each others' ideas. Well, I do anyway.

I also mainlined it and I'm looking forward to taking it slow and discussing it episode by episode.

[Xenon242]

I can see by the posts here that many of you have certainly given this show more thought than I have (being new and all) but it certainly sticks with you after the viewing experience and is very thought provoking.

This is one of the programme's real strengths, I think. More so than other shows on TV, BSG has an underlying intelligence about it from the very beginning that really stimulates some interesting thought and discussion.

Also, welcome aboard!

[timbo]

I plan to watch it all again from the beginning...slower this time.

I dont know if you know or not, but we are planning on a sort of coordinated rewatch, starting this weekend.

[dmbfan]

A coordinated rewatch? What is the schedule...Or can you direct me to the thread?

[genji2000]

A coordinated rewatch? What is the schedule...Or can you direct me to the thread?

Shane (I think, maybe Joe) is setting it up. There's a "Calendar" shortcut in the toolbar near the top. They've had other stuff to do this week like commissioning a new server, but we know that tomorrow evening is the Miniseries. The Calendar can be sorted out later. Sat/Sun are for discussion on the Mini and a new thread will go up in the Episodes sub-forum.

[Bruce]

Baltar confessed his deepest, gravest sin to the woman who has most cause to hate him and the best opportunity to ensure his demise. The fact that she didn't speaks volumes for her character

This.

Baltar's just there for comic relief now. I can't imagine a worse choice for final cylon apart from maybe Gaeta or Starbuck.

It would be a bit too easy though. Although the extra Cylon strength would totally explain how he managed to spend the night with D'Anna and Six without having a heart attack.

[genji2000]

Baltar confessed his deepest, gravest sin to the woman who has most cause to hate him and the best opportunity to ensure his demise. The fact that she didn't speaks volumes for her character, but also for his.

That is to say, the change in her character, what she has become.

It's okay to like her now.

[Arthenik]

Plot device or no, they are pretty consistent with his character. Baltar watches out for himself before anything else, even the preservation of his own species. And, actually, he wasn't "forced" to do anything. On New Caprica, for example, he could have resigned his position. He did not.

And that would totally help the stranded Colonials. The Cylons would probably just elect a pawn, one easier to control. Baltar claimed he actually gave the crucial information to Gaeta, which would be, if it is in fact true, a real act of defiance. I think Baltar did much more good staying in the office rather than resigning. He is a smart guy, I am sure helping the eventual resistance was why he chose to cooperate at the first glance.

Oh, and by the way, Baltar is probably my favorite character. I find his motivations realistic. He does not behave like your stock science fiction hero Captain Allgood, but as a real person.

[Xenon242]

Baltar claimed he actually gave the crucial information to Gaeta, which would be, if it is in fact true, a real act of defiance.

I really scratched my head at that one, when he said it. I'm going to have to re-watch those eps of S03 to see if he was telling the truth.

[genji2000]

I really scratched my head at that one, when he said it. I'm going to have to re-watch those eps of S03 to see if he was telling the truth.

There is a difference to handing Gaeta death warrants to deal with in his administrative capacity, and giving him inside information with a "keep schtum, pass it on to the insurgents."

It would be typical of Baltar retrospectively to consider the former as positive action in support of the resistance.

[Xenon242]

There is a difference to handing Gaeta death warrants to deal with in his administrative capacity, and giving him inside information with a "keep schtum, pass it on to the insurgents."

It would be typical of Baltar to retrospectively consider the former as positive action in support of the resistance.

That was the feeling I got in the first place, I just wanted to make sure I neither missed something nor mis-interpreted.

[LSOP]

The sad thing is, retrospectively, Baltar probably truly believed he was helping the resistance, when in reality at the time he was just looking out for himself. He always sees himself as better and more nobler than he is. Or at least he used to. The new Baltar would probably admit that he was only looking out for number one (and I don't mean Cavil) back on New Caprica. It is true that he absolutely did not want to hand out the death warrants, but he absolutely valued his own life above the lives of his fellow humans.

[Leoben]

I see more people discounting Baltar as our 5th, though there are those (myself included) who believe he is in fact our guy.

Baltar, to me at least, fits the prophecies better than anyone else. He also can easily fit in as the "head priest" role I've some people toss around on various boards. The guy has had his trial by fire so to speak. His interactions with D'anna and eventual torture by Roslin and Adama have basically move him out of the spotlight of the final Cylon.

It might be a little too easy for him to be a Cylon, but if it's too easy for him, it's wayyy to easy for say...Starbuck. Many of the big players at this point could and have had cases made for them. I also look at D'anna's reactions to Baltar and her most recent comments of the Final Five.

Things like "You were right" as she lays dying in the Temple of Five. Her almost total disregard for anyone else when Gaius is in the room. Her comment about there only being 4/5 in the human fleet (which would seem to imply the 5th is on the Basestar with her). He just seems to fit into all the little clues that are actually in the show. I think that Gauis as a character has grown a lot, come to accept his flaws and who he is. He doesn't quite live behind that veil of denial about everything. I think it's a great opportunity to stir things up with him again by shaking all that up.

My monies been on Gaius for a long time, but I'd be happily wrong if they could make it fit with some else *major*. If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times, people like Gaeta and Dee being number Five would be a huge letdown.